Ilayaraaja vs Rehaman
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
Friends,
I know a lot has been talked about on this topic, and I was tempted
to respond on this topic several time; but, somehow I forced myself
to let go things for two reasons: first, I did not have the time;
second, as you get into music you become more critical of the
later music composers as you become more knowledgeable in music.
Especially the second factor makes you more critical of people copying
easily.
That does not bother me much, and I enjoy the songs if it sounds good;
but, what gets to me is when people go to all lengths in praising
that song. One good example is the song "Khali Khali Aankhen". As
some nettor already pointed out this music was lifted straight from
a Greek show. This song went on to get Filmfare award, and there was
not even an acknowledgement that this song was inspired from somewhere.
Keep these thoughts when I share my thoughts on Rehaman. I am not putting
down Rehaman, it is rather I am outraged with the amount of praise for
Bombay music, (here I speak for the Tamil version as I have listened to
it fully (several times, on the suggestion of some nettor that it grows
on you when you listen to it several times), and I have listened to some
of the Hindi songs from Bombay). I listened to it several times, and I
like the music, but; I cannot understand the amount of hoopla on this.
The qawali type songs sounds like listening to some of Nusrat Fateh Ali
Khan. I like Hariharan's ghazal songs and some hindi songs; but, I could
not listen to his "Uyire Uyire ..". I do not pay attention that much to
the lysrics. In spite of that I could not tolerate his singing in any
of the songs in this movie. Rather, I liked Udit Narayan's
voice in the Hindi version, and also in another song from Khadalan.
I wish, for all its hype that Bombay received, that it was closer to
songs form Roja which was the best IMO from Rehaman. Everything after
that is not that good to me.
I do not like Rehaman music that much mainly because of the
western effect; but the people who are not exposed to western
music that much, like in India (among the masses), would not
recognize the familiarity and would immediately like it. I am
sure there were people who felt like what I am feeling when
they first listened to coposers like Shankar Jaikishan or any other
previous directors i.e. they felt some or all of it was copied or
borrowed.
I know some music directors, when they come out first, come out
with fusion music, and then they go back to their original type
drawing mostly on Indian music. Some exmaples are: Anand Shankar's
first album was more that way. There was a piece in the first album
that was called "Jumping jack flash" which is an exact copy of
a western song that I came to know later. But, later on he came up
music that was more Indian.
There is one thing that is different in Ilayaraaja songs, and that
is he always had that Indianness in his music. His plus points
are using Indian folk tune with western orchestration. He always
stayed with the changing times in musisc and brought newness
to his music; but, somewhere, something is lost. Otherwise, we
wouldn't be seeing the type of response we are seeeing for Rehaman.
I like Rehaman's music. It is the next best to Ilayaraaja's music
as Ilayaraaja is not coming with great songs right now; but, I do
not like the amount of praise he is getting especially for
Bombay and Khadalan songs. His music for Roja was the best. I
liked his style in this movie. I would compare this equally to
Ilayaraaja calibor; but, I noticed a downward trend from there
on. It could be just me. I feel that all the music from after
Gentleman is either repetitious, or copy of some western effect.
It's okay; but not good enough to be compared with Ilayaraja.
I know his music is popular in Hindi. That is because there is
no other good music direcotrs there right now. Most of them are
copying songs from here and there. Hindi songs before Rehaman, and
even now are either copied from some western songs or copied from
Ilayaraaja.
Another reason Rehaman is becoming popular is that people needed
a break from Ilayaraaja-type-music. Almost the whole country had
music of his style. Some coming from his own creations from his
film music in Tamil, Telugu etc, and a lot other music directors
whose music all sound like Ilayaraaja.
For the first time in the Indian film music I have seen the impact
of Ilayayaraaja wave on the whole of India (the ones that I am aware
of are: Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada). Even though it is not
Ilayaraaja's fault people needed a break, and they have embraced
a change, and that is Rehaman's music for now.
We need young musicians like Rehaman in Indian music field; but, I
only wish he comes up with his own style that uses Indian music to
a greater extent in addition to his current usage of latest
recording technologies and instruments. I feel he has the talents,
and wish that he comes with some of his own style that woulsd sound
Indian. Even if it does not sound Indian it is okay. All I ask is
"Don't copy some other style"; but create your own.
I wish that Ilayaraaja comes with totally different kind of music.
I don't think people are going to like his original type of music
again because most of the
listeners have reached a saturation point from his music coming form
his own music and many composers who are influenced by him. This
does not include Anand-Milind who directly copy his music in so many
Hindi movies as previously pointed by many nettors.
Let me know your thoughts
Sandeep
Sudeep Surender
worked as Illayaraja's Music assistant on most of Ill's musical
hits.
Sudeep
Kishore Krshna
instrument in Ilayaraja's orchestra (which has a 120 people in it).
From that to music assistant is a leap of faith.
I suppose this is how rumors start?
Kishore
Jebanesan Bhaskaran
be in 15 years from now? Will he dominate as Iiayaraaja did for the
past two decades. Will movies be a hit just because of their music?
music like Iiayaraaja? example Chinnathambi. Rehman is the Shaq
but Ilayaraaja is Michael Jordan. He is and will be what everybody
else is compared with. Rehman is good with his synthesizer but can he
do the same with "live" musicians. Ilayaraaja has produced spectacular
music with both. He also masterfully blended both. I like listening
to Rehman but Ilayaraaja will always be the best.
Arvind Tangirala
>
>Friends,
>
>I wish, for all its hype that Bombay received, that it was closer to
>songs form Roja which was the best IMO from Rehaman. Everything after
>that is not that good to me.
>
I do agree that Bombay is certainly not the best of Rehman's work, in fact it
is comparable to an average Illairaja score. Anyway, Bombay has been discussed
ad nauseum already, so I wont add anymore.
Rehman is getting somewhat predictive with each movie, but to his credit he is
not churning out songs on an assembly line, like Illairaja did in the latter
part of his career. Also, one more thing to realize, IMO, is that most
of the movies being made now are based on flimsy stroylines, 99% are about
teeny boppers in "love" and the music has to reflect the movie character,
especially since the concept of "meaningful" lyrics has all but disappeared.
So, it is no surprise that there is a lack of depth in the present day
film music.
Also, Rehman has got a distinctive style, though it is heavily
westernized. That itself should not be a reason for anybody to dislike him.
The problem with Rehman, IMO, is going to be that of endurance, i.e., how
long will songs from movies like Kaadalan or Gentleman be remembered. He has
not been able to impress more "mature" (read "older") listeners and the young
are very impressionable (and forgetful?). At least a few years down the road,
when instrumental/vocal improvisations will no longer be as novel as they
are today, I hope Rehman explores other musical styles. But there is no doubt
that he has atleast brought a breath of fresh air, mainly to the Bombay
Bappi/AM types, who now have someone closer home to copy from. It IS
sickening the kinds of things these (mostly) Hindi movie MDs manage to get
away with.
This leads to the second thing that is striking with respect to
Rehman, in that he has become popular both among the north and the south Indian
listeners almost simultaneously. This is one thing which Illairaja was not
able to achieve (or maybe cared, I am not sure which one). I am sure there
are a lot of North Indians who would appreciate Illairaja as much, if not
more than Rehman, if they were to listen to early stuff from him, because
even Illairaja was an innovator and a trend setter when he came to the
film music scene.
All said and done, the bottom line is that one should not overanalyze any
art form, especially music. If one feels good (or sad or depressed or
whatever) then the music has served its purpose, because ultimately it is
not how "good" or "bad" the music (or a painting or ...) is that matters,
but how it affects one, and different people react differently to the
same thing. Thats what makes this life stimulating!
Just some of my random thoughts!
Cheeers and Happy listening,
Arvind
>I do not like Rehaman music that much mainly because of the
>western effect; but the people who are not exposed to western
>
>Sandeep
Ramesh Hariharan
>they first listened to coposers like Shankar Jaikishan or any other
>previous directors i.e. they felt some or all of it was copied or
>borrowed.
Hey hey ! Hold it there ... you don't have to take a shot at SJ for no
reason.... if you want to kill them for rare plagiarisms done by the pair,
give them credit for the various beauties they created over the years.
They exploited the abilities of Manna Dey more than any other music
director.... in this case they spanned the spectrum from light hearted
songs in Chori Chori to absolute gems such as Chum Chum bhaje re
payaliyan and Sur Na Saje. I am not sure if Raj Kapoor would have attained
superstar status without the softness in Mukesh's voice or the melody of SJ !
Yahooooo... they practically brought in a new culture of music with
the music for Shammi Kapoor movies which had a certain strut lacking in
Hindi music previously. I can sight numeruos examples of Mohammed Rafi
beauties with Shankar Jaikishan. Several of them were sung for
Pradeep Kumar. Have you heared the music of Basant Bahaar,
Awara, Shri 420, Jaanwar, Professor, Rajhath and Mera Naam Joker.
Listen to these gems and back up words like "some or all of it was
copied or borrowed" with facts !
>Sandeep
--
Ramesh Hariharan, Princeton U.
Chala jaata hoon kisi ki dhun mein dhadakte dil ke tarane liye
Milan ki masti bhari aankhon mein hazaaron sapane suhane liye
s53...@aix2.uottawa.ca
: It is interesting that you omitted to say that A.R Rahuman
: worked as Illayaraja's Music assistant on most of Ill's musical
: hits.
: Sudeep
Hold on for a second!
How did you come up with this `fact` ?
I doubt Rehman was born when Raaja started his movie career
( need I add, with a string of hits). And when Raaja was coming
out with his most memorable works (late 70`s early 80`s) Rehman
would have barely reached his teens.
You seem to forget ARR is only in his mid twenties.
So next time you want to put a spoon in your mouth, try to wash it
at least.
anbudan
Dushyanth G.
Ayub Mohammed P910
I haven't listened to much of Illiyaraja's music but I just love
Rahman's music. Most people like his Roja work but I personally
don't like 'Roja' at all. I don't understand tamil and the only
reason I listen to his music is because of the music.
I think he does a great job of fusion between western and eastern.
In most attempt of fusion done by other MDs, they have the
drum machine and have a great orchestra with it and ofcourse,
don't havea raag base in the music. But, in Rahman's works, not
all buta lot of his works, he comes out with a unique rythme, he
does not necessaryly restrict himself to a constant drum beat or a
tabla beat but gets some bass rythm into it. For example, in
'katha katha din katha' from 'Uzhavan', the rythme is just awesome
between the each sentences; it is just a great song.
Another thing he does is that he will have some classical karnatic
musical interludes which just sounds great.
I just love his music for 'pudhya mugam' and 'gentleman'.
I have heard two songs from Bombay, 'Humma humma' is OK but
'gulla gulla halla gulla' is just awesome.
It is different from any other music out there and thats
why I like it. I am tired of hearing the same old drum beat
or tabla beat over and over again.
Can someone give me the full lyrics and meaning of 'watta watta
katti ko' from Gentleman?
ta-ta
Ayub
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: Can someone give me the full lyrics and meaning of 'watta watta
: katti ko' from Gentleman?
Here you go. Now non-Tamil listeners
ask for Tamil lyrics. It used to be other way around.
Hindi songs with good music were hits in TN.
Now with the advent of Raja and Rahman the trend
has reversed. raja came well before
Rehman with `annakkiLi' `senthoorappoovE'`adi aaththaadi'
etc. I remember one guy came to me for adi aaththaadi iLa
manasonnu rakkai katti paRakkuthu tape.
Some of those songs had more sense and meaning
but watta watta kattik kO (ottakkaththak kattik kO)
is literally hug a camel. Vairamuthu may make some
sense out of this.
Like for ex:
`A tall ,thirsty and starving lean man-camel
in search of love (water) is looking for a some
water (hug) in oasis '.
[do not take me seriously]
anban
Kathir
(kkri...@bnr.ca)
: ta-ta
: Ayub
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <D663E...@nntpa.cb.att.com> san...@arch4.ho.att.com () writes:
>>
>>they first listened to coposers like Shankar Jaikishan or any other
>>previous directors i.e. they felt some or all of it was copied or
Ramesh,
Either you misunderstand me or that I did not clarify things
better. Let me assume the latter and clarify what I meant.
Before I do that let me tell you Shankar-Jaikishan is one of
one of my favourite music directors and there is not even one
among current Hindi music directors. I would agree with all the
stuff you said below about Rajkumar, Rafi etc. Also, I like
your postings on Rafi, and read your article with interest.
Now to the clarification. When you are starting to listen to
music as a child you have no idea of the musical universe, and
you don't know if something is copied or not. You may not even
care at that point if it is copied. All that music creates at
that point is a nice feeling, and it attaches a picture of the
surrounding, and that stays in your mind for ever, AND this is
what some of us call it as nostalgia. That's what happened to
me at that point. Now that I have listened to plenty of songs
of different languages, different music directors you start to
note that which is original, which is copied etc. etc. As you
start to listen to some songs in western classical, Henry Mancini,
Greek songs, Latin songs, Jazz etc. you start to find the copy
masters. Some of them lift the tune as it is some take an idea
and expand it. But, still you know that it is copied
(or influenced). I acknowledge, even my alltime favourite music
director, Ilayaraaja copies ideas and adds his influence; but it
is still a copy.
I was only stating this i.e. as I am not a child now, I can tell
A.R.Rehaman's music, to me, sounds more towards western type of
music (listening to all Bombay songs may not make you think so;
because it gives the copy of Nusrat's qawali songs. But, if you
listen to Gentleman, Kadhalan, Thiruda Thiruda they all have
that pure western effect).
This may not be the case with others who are starting out, or who
are looking for something else in the song, e.g. lyrics, rhythm
etc. I mainly listen to songs for its melody and music (of course
rhythm included). I know these songs may grow on me if the current
trend of musical garbage continues from other music directors.
To summarize, I just picked one of the famous music director there
to prove my point that when they copied the music how, either we
did not know about it, or ignored it at that point. If you are
looking for example, the first Hindi song that I chose to sing in
college "Jeena yahan, Marna yahan" is a copy of a western music.
This song to me is a great song even after knowing that it is
copied. It has become part of my life like so many other songs.
This is what I see in the tone of some of the responses of the
readers. There is nothing wrong with it. I was just pointing
out that transition.
Several other examples of copying of Shankar-Jaikishan were already
given by others on the net.
"Gumnam hai kohi ...", --I don't who the music director is-- is a
copy of Henry Mancini.
Ramesh, I hope this clarifies what I wanted to say. You may want to
add on.
Sandeep
P.S.
I decided to add a reply to another comment on my original
post here. Someone pointed about the rhythm usage of
A.R. Rehaman. I agree with him 100%, and even more. I had
mentioned this in my past articles in soc.culture.tamil.
Let me repeat that portion. I feel, he is one of the best
in rhythms, and currently the best in using rhythm
combinations. I love it.
All I wish is that he gets away from too much of western
effect (for my selfish ears; because, that's how I like it).
If he changes his style to my style. Tough luck :-) for those
who like his western effect. Just kidding. Let he do what
he likes, the way his creative ability takes him. We will
take it as it comes. WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO OTHER THAN vent OUT
ON THE NET.
akif sultan
>In article <1995Mar30.0...@princeton.edu>,
>Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>In article <D663E...@nntpa.cb.att.com> san...@arch4.ho.att.com () writes:
> A.R.Rehaman's music, to me, sounds more towards western type of
> music (listening to all Bombay songs may not make you think so;
>
> All I wish is that he gets away from too much of western
> effect (for my selfish ears; because, that's how I like it).
> If he changes his style to my style. Tough luck :-) for those
> who like his western effect. Just kidding. Let he do what
I guess the western influence on A.R. Rehman's music could be due
to the fact that he has a degree in music from U.K. ( I read it
somewhere, please confirm ! somebody). So I wouldn't be
surprised, in fact you find an indianness in his songs. I like
them, they are pleasing to the ears if they have a western
influence then be it. I can live with it.
akif
Ikram Ahmed Khan
I really don't understand why you would want to compare Ilayaraaja with
poor ARR. ARR is comparatively so recent as compared to Ilayaraaja that
it would not be unfair to call him a bachcha as compared to I.
I. has been in the music industry for countless (figuratively speaking
only :) ) years. He has nothing left to prove to anybody at all.
On the other hand ARR is a relative newcomer. We should all be
applauding the fact that now we have two great composers in India
instead of cribbing about this guy being better or that guy being
better. By the way, at least there should be no question in anybody's
mind that ARR has the germs of greatness. I don't see any other example
of anybody who came on the music industry with such a bang and petered
off to produce insignificant music.
Another point that everybody is making is that his music is "soooo
western, yaar". Not completely true at all. Anjali Anjali from Duet,
almost all songs of Uzhavan and Keezhaku cheemayile, Uyire Uyire or Tu
hi re Tu hi re from Bombay and even the Sundariyo .. from Kadhalan
cannot be termed as western as they have a pretty distinct Indian touch
to them. So to say that he has not done any "Indian " stuff is being
grossly unfair. And secondly what's wrong with being "western". I hope
we are not going to declare all western music is bad or some such stuff,
are we? Since the music is being liked by a lot of the people in India
and elsewhere we really can't say that. And note that the man on the
streets would not like pure Beethoven if you made him listen to it. But
he did like Veera Pandi ... which I will definitely not compare to
Beethoven's music but will only point out that the music was symphonic
in nature as to the sounds and the number of instruments used and the
overall effect. As an additional point in ARR's favor, he is even making
the Northern (read Hindi) film industry aware of the music down South.
Of course the music directors like Anand-Milind knew what was happening
down south but the average listener was not aware of things.
Also coming back to the western grouse that people have against him,
lets consider Rukmini Rukmini in Roja. Anand-Milind copied it for a song
in Andaz. Was that as big a hit? NO, it wasn't . So the treatment to the
song also matters a lot.
All I am trying to say is that saying ARR is not good at all is wrong .
He's given enuff hits as it is. Also he has given VARIED music when he
felt like it.In fact he's proved until nnow that he has talent in
plenty. Now we should all sit back and watch what he dishes out to us.
And as for comparing him with Ilayaraaja , why compare two geniuses. can
you compare Newton and Einstein? Let them be.
Here's to ARR and Ilayaraaja and good music from both of them.
*Cheers*
Ikram.
As...@adhareswar.worldbank.org
> To add my own two cents worth :
>
> I really don't understand why you would want to compare Ilayaraaja with
> poor ARR. ARR is comparatively so recent as compared to Ilayaraaja that
> it would not be unfair to call him a bachcha as compared to I.
> I. has been in the music industry for countless (figuratively speaking
> only :) ) years. He has nothing left to prove to anybody at all.
> On the other hand ARR is a relative newcomer. We should all be
> applauding the fact that now we have two great composers in India
> instead of cribbing about this guy being better or that guy being
> better. By the way, at least there should be no question in anybody's
> mind that ARR has the germs of greatness.
> I don't see any other example of anybody who came on the music industry >
with such a bang and petered off to produce insignificant music.
>
> Ikram.
Laxmikant-Pyarelal.
Ashok
Chetan Vinchhi
Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
sound as music. Did anybody else get the feeling ? I
just cannot get to like the songs too much. I would
much rather prefer a song that has just real tabla and
maybe a real flute for music accompaniment. Anyways,
I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
Comments (flames ?) are welcome !
Opinions expressed are solely mine.
Cheers !
Chetan
Mahesh Chaubal
Chetan Vinchhi <cvin...@telogy.com> wrote:
>Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
>When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
>with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
>is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
>sound as music. Did anybody else get the feeling ?
I completely agree with that! Most of the times excessive use of synth
sounds too jarring.. this also holds for angrezi songs, which can be proved
from the fact that classic rock has beared the test of time while disco
could not..(analogous to old hindi music vs. new)
>I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
>Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
Now *that* is where i beg to differ (opinions differ, no flames plz).
I have always loved western-eastern fusion, however lack the knowledge of good
sources. Could ppl please suggest some bands which have tried such a fusion?
I know Shakti and Ave Maria (the RD/Asha/boy george work)..
ps. would there be at least one soul who also feels that 'meghha chhaye
aadhi raat from sharmilee (md:SD) sounds like a great fusion piece? (or
am I like the lone calorie of diet pepsi?)
>Cheers !
>Chetan
Seinfeld !
Mahesh
pps. you all MUST hear this statement of the year by Anand-Milind, when asked
about their copying Illayaraja music:
AM: "Whats wrong in copying if we are IMPROVING the standards of the
original?"
ppps. since I havent seen anyone announce the next rjgk, I volunteer
to do a sequel on lata special.. objections/comments, express soooooN!
Raj Venkataraman
Pani" ! I wonder if Vanilla Ice had something to say about this... Many of the
popular Hindi and Tamil music are copies of popular western tunes... Given that
where is the question of plagiarism? Considering the prolific compositions of
Illayaraja I *cannot believe* that all of them were original. If you copy some,
you cannot complain if some of your "real original" ones are copied by others !
On a related note Stardust a few years ago
had a couple of comments about Bappi Lahri's music
"Bappi Lahri's music is both good and original, what is good is not original and
what is original is not good !"
"Bappi Lahri must realize that people other than his daughter have the Billboard
top 20 cassette... !"
In the meantime Bappi Lahri himself had a cover page interview with Ananda
Vikatan where he said "Michael Jackson is my only competition !". Cannot
imagine Bappi doing one of those crotch grinding routines anyway...
Cheers,
Raj
In article <vishwa.797221635@sol>, vis...@sol.acs.unt.edu (Gaddamanugu Vishwa Prasad) writes:
|> cha...@umbc.edu (Mahesh Chaubal) writes:
|>
|> >pps. you all MUST hear this statement of the year by Anand-Milind, when
|> asked >about their copying Illayaraja music:
|> >AM: "Whats wrong in copying if we are IMPROVING the standards of the
|> >original?"
|>
|> No Kidding AM..
|>
|> Their *only* own composition todate is QSQT (which to my knowledge is a
|> lift of some angrezi songs, and I believe it was their debut).
|> Right from Vaansh/Baaghi the lifing of Illayaraja had changed a little
|> bit, now that they are copying AR Rahman also and Anu Malik is not far
|> behind in this race.
|>
|> This brings in the key issue of posting this article. Are this songs not
|> copyright protected? Does the Producer / Recording Company / Music
|> Director have any say in this matter? If so, what is the best thing they
|> can do about this?
|>
|> The knowledgeable netters of this newsgroup, please post your opinions
|> and answer to the *plagiarizing* question addressed above.
|>
|> Thanks in advance
|>
|> Vishwa
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
--
Raj Venkataraman
ven...@morgan.com
Chetan Vinchhi
cha...@umbc.edu (Mahesh Chaubal) wrote:
>In article <3m1j11$a...@clarknet.clark.net>,
>Chetan Vinchhi <cvin...@telogy.com> wrote:
>>I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
>>Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
>
>Now *that* is where i beg to differ (opinions differ, no flames plz).
>I have always loved western-eastern fusion, however lack the knowledge of
good
> sources. Could ppl please suggest some bands which have tried such a fusion?
>I know Shakti and Ave Maria (the RD/Asha/boy george work)..
>
>ps. would there be at least one soul who also feels that 'meghha chhaye
>aadhi raat from sharmilee (md:SD) sounds like a great fusion piece? (or
>am I like the lone calorie of diet pepsi?)
>
This is not really a flame...
I have nothing against fusion.
It seems, however, that much of the music that goes
under "fusion" has an attempt at fusion of spirit of the
music. (am I making sense at all ?) What I mean is that
if you take the notes of a raag, throw the mood and
the spirit and the rules of the raag to the winds,
try to conjure up a tune and when you run out of
ideas, run back to dear old classical music and
try to force some phrases of the raag into your song,
the end product is neither the one nor the other.
That is not to say that music directors should
not fuse ideas or should stick to tanpura-sarangi-
and-tabla in their music. In fact, some of my
favourite MDs (Madan Mohan, S D Burman, Salil come
to mind) have used western instruments very effectively
in a lot of their music. As you mention, "meghaa chhaye..."
has a lot of western instruments in its interludes
while still maintaining an essential Indianness.
So when I hear a song that has the notes of
Raag Desh and a few phrases here and there from
Desh but a tangle of notes through the rest of
the song, I feel that feeling of incompleteness.
I hope I have made my p.o.v. clearer...
>
>ppps. since I havent seen anyone announce the next rjgk, I volunteer
>to do a sequel on lata special.. objections/comments, express soooooN!
>
That would be most welcome !
Cheers !
Chetan
Dev Mannemela
Raj Venkataraman <ven...@is.morgan.com> wrote:
>I heard that Baba Sehgal had sued someone for copying the tune of "Tanda Tanda
>Pani" ! I wonder if Vanilla Ice had something to say about this... Many of the
>popular Hindi and Tamil music are copies of popular western tunes... Given that
>where is the question of plagiarism? Considering the prolific compositions of
>Illayaraja I *cannot believe* that all of them were original. If you copy some,
You just can't believe it? Isn't that just a bit unfair to Raja?
/dev
--
Dev Mannemela de...@spimageworks.com
Sony Pictures Imageworks (310) 641-1614 (O)
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
>
>Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
>
>When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
>with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
>is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
>sound as music. Did anybody else get the feeling ? I
Chetan,
I think you put the finger on the exact thing that I
should have included in my original mail when I statrted
this thread. It is the synthesiser on hand and voice mixing
on the makes me not like his music (in some cases I liked,
as in in Roja song "Chinna chinna aasai ..", I forget the
Hindi version it has to do happiness).
But, when he uses Indian instruments and some rhythm
combination it sounds good. His rhythm combination is
really good.
Sandeep
>just cannot get to like the songs too much. I would
>much rather prefer a song that has just real tabla and
>maybe a real flute for music accompaniment. Anyways,
>I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
>Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
>
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
Mahesh Chaubal <cha...@umbc.edu> wrote:
>In article <3m1j11$a...@clarknet.clark.net>,
>Chetan Vinchhi <cvin...@telogy.com> wrote:
>>Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
>>When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
>>with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
>>is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
>>Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
>
>I have always loved western-eastern fusion, however lack the knowledge of good
> sources. Could ppl please suggest some bands which have tried such a fusion?
I am not sure if this will fit in with what you were looking
for. I had posted this earlier. Ilayaraaja has done two CDs
where there is a mix of Indian and wetern classical music.
He acknowledges some of the styles he has mixed from western
classical by naming pieces like "Mozart I Love you",
"I met Bach ..", "And we had a talk ..", "Chamber Welcomes
Thiagaraja .." etc.
The name of the two CDs are:
1. How to Name It ?
2. Nothing But Wind
The second CD has flute pieces played by Hariprasad Chaurasya
He has also fused the concept of cross melody, and harmony
in most of his film songs. This used to be his trade mark
when he started in his earlier film songs. I loved those
songs. That is what attracted me to Ilayaraaja, --using
western techniques, western instruments, western music all
on the foundation of INDIAN FOLK OR OTHER KINDS OF MUSIC--.
I know he did not follow this in all of his songs. But, I
like the songs where he did this. To me, that is the type
of creativity I like the most.
Read on at the end of the article I have more comment ....
Sandeep
>I know Shakti and Ave Maria (the RD/Asha/boy george work)..
>
>ps. would there be at least one soul who also feels that 'meghha chhaye
>aadhi raat from sharmilee (md:SD) sounds like a great fusion piece? (or
>am I like the lone calorie of diet pepsi?)
>
>>Cheers !
>>Chetan
>
>Seinfeld !
>Mahesh
>
>pps. you all MUST hear this statement of the year by Anand-Milind, when asked
>about their copying Illayaraja music:
>AM: "Whats wrong in copying if we are IMPROVING the standards of the
^^^^^^^^^
>original?"
^^^^^^^^^^^
That is OUTRAGEOUS that Anand-Milind said that. I will have
no respect for them for saying that. I used to like their
songs because they copy Ilayaraaja music in Hindi. As
Ilayaraaja was not giving music to Hindi, I thought this is
one oway of listening Ilayaraaja's influence on Hindi music.
But this is TOO LOW.
May be they did not get to finish their sentence
which sould have said.
"AM: "We TRIED to improve the standards of the original;
but, we SCREWED up the original. SORRY !!!!"
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: > To add my own two cents worth :
: Laxmikant-Pyarelal.
I think this has become a fashion of sorts. (to demean poor Laxmikant
Pyarelal). I think that if we consider Parasmani which was somewhere in
the early 60s ( do I hear a shout for '63 ? ) to Karz and Sargam (some
people May not like the "disco" songs for Karz but what about Dard-e-dil
.. and as for Sargam I wouldn't even want to argue with anyone who
thought the songs were bad) to the more recent Khalnayak which had the
hugely popular Choli ke peeche (tho' I personally don't think highly of
it but I stress the personally bit). You can't really say that they
petered off to give insignificant music. And of course the person who
expects each and every song of a music director to be of a great level is
not being realistic in asking the MD to be at that level of creativity
all the time. Another point is that L-P are now closer to the end of
their careers than the beginning. Creativity I beleive is hampered by old
age. Look at O P Nayar's Nishchaiy or Zid or Naushad's Teri Payal Mere
Geet. Its not even close to the real thing that they were producing at
the zenith of their careers.So if you predict that in twenty years time
ARR (yes, he is the topic of this thread :) ) will be producing bad music
(wwhich I note that you haven't, but still who knows) then I can bear
that if he's given as many gems as L-P have done over the years.And don't
forget that L-P were competing all thru'out the starting part of their
careers with some of the top names in the business and still managed to
come out of that.
Ikram.
: Ashok
Gaddamanugu Vishwa Prasad
>pps. you all MUST hear this statement of the year by Anand-Milind, when
asked >about their copying Illayaraja music:
>AM: "Whats wrong in copying if we are IMPROVING the standards of the
Ramesh Neelmegh
writes:
> Path: nsc!voder!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!rutgers!
> uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!
> howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!
> brtph500.bnr.ca!news From: Ayub Mohammed P910 <moha...@bnr.ca>
> Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc,soc.culture.tamil Subject:
> Re: Ilayaraaja vs Rehaman
> Date: 31 Mar 1995 21:13:58 GMT
> Organization: Bell Northern Research
> Lines: 39
> Message-ID: <3lhram$5...@brtph500.bnr.ca>
> References: <D663E...@nntpa.cb.att.com> <3lc2ek$sfi@
> ornews.intel.com> <Pine.SOL.3.91.950330101606.27342B-100000@
> nova> NNTP-Posting-Host: brtph334.bnr.ca
> ko' from Gentleman?
>
> Ayub
I tend to generally agree with Ayub's analysis. The ektaal/teentaal tabla
beats have gotten old. Ilayaraja was/is the king of melody. His songs ahve the
tendency of getting into your head and you keep humming under your breathe the
rest of the day. His songs in the very recent Kattumarakkaran were of that
quality. However, IR's instrumental music lacks the sophistication, innovation
and creativity that is obtained in Rehman's music.
Rehman covers a range of styles with great mastery from Village music (ULavan,
Karuthamma,) Soulful vocals (Karuthamma, Ulavan, BOmbay, May Matham), Pop
(Kaathalan).
The songs from Gentleman have been dubbed in HIndi "Roop suhana lagtha hai,
CHand purana lagtha hai" etc. The hindi lyrics are much better than the
original in this particular case. This is generally not true with other
translated songs. Tamil versions of Bombay and Roja, Kaathalan have better
lyrics in them than the hindi counterparts. THis is so because the director
insists that the lyrics are as much as possible in lip sync with the singer.
This is a severe constraint on the lyricist under which to compose music
>
S.Jagadish ....... I think .... Therefore I am
> 1. How to Name It ?
> 2. Nothing But Wind
I have heard both albums ... the 1st one is really good ... all the pieces !!
the second one I didnt like it all that much ... at the outset it might be good
but i suppose i compared it with the 1st one and it was nowhere near the class
of the 1st one ... there is a piece in the 1st one which is from the award
winning Balu Mahendra film Veedu ... it is really good !!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The opinions expressed above are mine alone ... Any infringement of copyrights
will be severely dealt with :-)
S.Jagadish
Computer Engineering Year 2
UnderGrad Scholarship holder from India
Nanyang Technological University
Singapore
E-Mail : SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG : University E-Mail address
jaga...@hpsgk1.sgp.hp.com : Hewlett Packard (Industrial Attachment)
Die hard Kamal Hassan visiri ... from Kalatthur Kannama to Andhra Jaalara !!
Sometimes My Postings are smaller than my signature ! ;-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ashok
> : > I don't see any other example of anybody who came on the music industry
> : with such a bang and petered off to produce insignificant music.
> : >
> : > Ikram.
My example was
> : Laxmikant-Pyarelal.
>
Ikram replied:
> I think this has become a fashion of sorts. (to demean poor Laxmikant
> Pyarelal). I think that if we consider Parasmani which was somewhere in
> the early 60s ( do I hear a shout for '63 ? ) to Karz and Sargam (some
> people May not like the "disco" songs for Karz but what about Dard-e-dil
> .. and as for Sargam I wouldn't even want to argue with anyone who
> thought the songs were bad) to the more recent Khalnayak which had the
> hugely popular Choli ke peeche (tho' I personally don't think highly of
> it but I stress the personally bit). You can't really say that they
> petered off to give insignificant music. And of course the person who
> expects each and every song of a music director to be of a great level is
> not being realistic in asking the MD to be at that level of creativity
> all the time. Another point is that L-P are now closer to the end of
> their careers than the beginning. Creativity I beleive is hampered by old
> age. Look at O P Nayar's Nishchaiy or Zid or Naushad's Teri Payal Mere
> Geet. Its not even close to the real thing that they were producing at
> the zenith of their careers.So if you predict that in twenty years time
> ARR (yes, he is the topic of this thread :) ) will be producing bad music
> (wwhich I note that you haven't, but still who knows) then I can bear
> that if he's given as many gems as L-P have done over the years.And don't
> forget that L-P were competing all thru'out the starting part of their
> careers with some of the top names in the business and still managed to
> come out of that.
>
> Ikram.
>
"Autumn of life" decline is not at issue here (although do note that the
phenomenon is not universal; SD Burman managed a second peak perhaps
surpassing his first one; I don't think I have heard a bad song composed by
Anil Biswas). At issue is the standard of excellence the MDs set for themselves
when things are going their way. L-P did not peter out in the 1990s. They
petered out in the 1960s! They set out to compose insignificant music beginning
with the very first A-grade movie they got ('Aaye din bahar ke'), within 4 years
of their debut. (This is NOT what Khayyam did, when after more than 20 years
of struggle, he got a a break with 'Kabhi kabhi.') I am aware of 'Milan' and 'Bobby',
but I am referring to the fact that the average level of quality that L-P
delivered when they were cruising was far lower than that of the next-to-great
caliber MDs, such as RD Burman, not to speak of S-J.
When RD and L-P burst on the scene, they were heralded, not without some
justification, as the next C. Ramchandra and the next S-J, respectively. I
would say that the career of RD has vindicated the early praise while
that of L-P has not.
I did not predict anything about Rehman. I just gave an answer to your
statement (see above). I have only listened to Roja and Bombay. Prediction
is hazardous and worse, pointless. I'll tell you what comparisons Roja-Bombay
brings to mind. It is inferior to 'Chhote Nawab', but not by much; it is in the
same league as ParasMani and, you won't like this one, 'Shikari' (remember
Kohli?). It does NOT bring to mind 'Barsat,' but I wish him that career.
Ashok
ADhar...@WorldBank.org
Ikram Ahmed Khan
B
: I did not predict anything about Rehman. I just gave an answer to your
: statement (see above). I have only listened to Roja and Bombay. Prediction
: is hazardous and worse, pointless. I'll tell you what comparisons Roja-Bombay
: brings to mind. It is inferior to 'Chhote Nawab', but not by much; it is in the
: same league as ParasMani and, you won't like this one, 'Shikari' (remember
: Kohli?). It does NOT bring to mind 'Barsat,' but I wish him that career.
: Ashok
Thanks for the good wishes Ashok. Chote Nawab didn't make as much of a
dent in the Hindi film music scene as much as his Teesri Manzil did.
Parasmani was a runaway musical hit but wouldn't be considered an A grade
movie of that time. 'Barsaat' on the other hand was an A grade movie and
had most importantly music DIFFERENT from what was being produced
then.Since Roja was an A grade movie and most importantly had music which
everyone acknowledges as DIFFERENT ( I had never heard of a song like
Rukmini Rukmini with its chant like tone of HOOO HOOO before) and that is
why I compare his coming with Barsaat. Note I am not comparing S-J with
ARR. As for L-P I'll acknowledge that they might not have produced great
music (to compare with the likes of the then greats) but to think that in
the eras of those greats somebody gave them a chance and that they made
themselves noticeable by giving good music for even Parasmani alone would
rank as an achievement for me. Anyway you don't think they're great,
that's fine with me , my intention wasn't to discuss these guys in this
thread in the first place. :)
Later,Ikram
: ADhar...@WorldBank.org
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
S.Jagadish ....... I think .... Therefore I am <sf91...@omega.ntu.ac.sg> wrote:
>> The name of the two CDs are:
>> 1. How to Name It ?
>> 2. Nothing But Wind
>
>I have heard both albums ... the 1st one is really good ... all the pieces !!
>the second one I didnt like it all that much ... at the outset it might be good
Hai Jagadish,
When I first heard the second CD that's how I felt; because the
second one has less of other influence and more of Indian
influence. But, after listening to it for a while I started
liking the second CD better than the first. Especially, the
piece called "Composer's Breath" is excellent. I felt there
was more of Ilayaraaja's originality in this as compared to
the first where I felt there was more of wetern classical
influence.
I felt similar things when I heard the first and second LP of
Anand Shankar music long time ago.
Sandeep
The Modem Wizard
: Ikram wrote (re Rehman)
: My example was
: I did not predict anything about Rehman. I just gave an answer to your
: statement (see above). I have only listened to Roja and Bombay. Prediction
: is hazardous and worse, pointless. I'll tell you what comparisons Roja-Bombay
: brings to mind. It is inferior to 'Chhote Nawab', but not by much; it is in the
: same league as ParasMani and, you won't like this one, 'Shikari' (remember
: Kohli?). It does NOT bring to mind 'Barsat,' but I wish him that career.
: Ashok
: ADhar...@WorldBank.org
It is not fair to jump to conclusions about AR Rahman, when you
have listened to only two of his sountracks! Check out his Tamil works,
and you'll see how much better he his than anyone out there today. For
example, 'Gentleman', 'Thiruda Thiruda', 'Pudhya Mugam', 'Mahamaadam',
'Duet', and 'Uzahlan'. The problem with people is that they compare
contemporary musicians to ones of yesteryear. It's like comparing apples
and oranges. If you enjoy music from different times in its context, then
one can truly compare music. I completely agree with you that RD Burman
was a great music director, who still had tunes left to offer to the
world (look at 1942: ALS.) AR Rahman is using techniques in making music
that is innovative amongst Indian movie directors, such as composing his
music completely on computer, through the use of instrument samples. I
don't understand a word of Tamil, yet I enjoy his Tamil works.
<-TMW->
Chetan Vinchhi
ajo...@is.dal.ca (The Modem Wizard) wrote:
>
> It is not fair to jump to conclusions about AR Rahman, when you
>have listened to only two of his sountracks! Check out his Tamil works,
>and you'll see how much better he his than anyone out there today. For
>example, 'Gentleman', 'Thiruda Thiruda', 'Pudhya Mugam', 'Mahamaadam',
>'Duet', and 'Uzahlan'. The problem with people is that they compare
>contemporary musicians to ones of yesteryear. It's like comparing apples
>and oranges. If you enjoy music from different times in its context, then
>one can truly compare music. I completely agree with you that RD Burman
>was a great music director, who still had tunes left to offer to the
>world (look at 1942: ALS.) AR Rahman is using techniques in making music
>that is innovative amongst Indian movie directors, such as composing his
>music completely on computer, through the use of instrument samples. I
>don't understand a word of Tamil, yet I enjoy his Tamil works.
>
I was just wondering what you meant by "composing his music
entirely on a computer" !? If you meant that he is using
synthesized sound, then let me point out (as I did in an
earlier post on this subject) that synthesized sound is
not the same as "natural" sound. In fact it is significantly
inferior. The main reason is that sound is synthesized
using a "model" for music (often, a parametric model)
and I don't think any of the models used is
sophisticated enough to capture music. Anyways, I do
know that there is a difference and one can tell the
difference between natural and synthesized sound simply
by listening carefully. Of course synthesized sound
does have the advantage of being able to preclude
distortion due to human limitation. But then, what is the
sound of a sitar without the slight sound of metal
against the string ? Or the sound of the sarod without
the delicious rubbing of the shell against steel ?
...Just expressing an opinion.
<-TMW->
>
Cheers !
Chetan
>
Ahilan Thevathurai
: Hello,
: Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
: When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
: with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
: is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
: sound as music. Did anybody else get the feeling ? I
: just cannot get to like the songs too much. I would
: much rather prefer a song that has just real tabla and
: maybe a real flute for music accompaniment. Anyways,
: I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
: Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
: Comments (flames ?) are welcome !
: Opinions expressed are solely mine.
: Cheers !
: Chetan
Yeah Chetan....
I agree with your comments here.....ARR doesn't really
satisfy the music listeners expectations....All most all the songs
were left incompleted in terms of the rythm..I like Raja better than
all these guys.....
Just my thoughts......
T.Ahilan(Theva)
Chetan Vinchhi
iak...@tam2000.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) wrote:
>
> Chetan
> you must have heard of these Computer music courses right? I mean at
> T A&M (sorry for the marketing :) ) I work in a lab which is made for
> use in the Computer music scene. Yes, I agree with you that you won't be
> able to reproduce the actual sound of the sitar but I also beleive that
> if you are listening to a recording, some of the frequencies have
> already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
> produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
> especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
> that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
> original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ..., I wouldn't want to
(just a bit of nitpicking : I think that is K L Sahgal)
> debunk technology which is making it possible for these same 78 rpm
> records to be available on CDs where that annoying hiss (do you folks
> still remember that? Might want to see Mirch Masala in case you don't
> :) ) has been digitally removed using these infamous much-abused
> computers.
Ikram,
Unfortunately, I have not had the chance to study music
(natural or synthesized) as an academic pursuit. And I
am not, if *I* may say so, debunking technology of any
sort. I am not against the use of computers for
enhancing the sound quality either by removing noise
at the expense of slight degradation in the actual
signal around those frequencies or by the use of
adaptive filtering to emulate the same effect.
What I *am* against is sound that is synthesized
by a computer. Powerful as they are, I still think
present generation computers (and technology) do not
do a good job of reproducing sound. And technology for
the sake of it is something that needs to be avoided
like the plague. While I agree that it is not right
to brush aside a certain kind of music just because
it is computer-generated, it is (in my mind) even
less so to consider that same piece of music to
be good (or superior) just because...
If you remember my earlier post (to which you had
replied) I had simply asked what "music composed entirely
on a computer" meant. So what I am doing is not technology-
bashing but just advocating caution against the
use of technology that may be premature.
> Another fact, digital sound isn't that bad as it is very much possible
> in today's technological world to mimic sound in a way that is
> reasonably accurate so that only the keenest "eared" individuals will be
> able to make out the difference. and in today's world of Noise pollution
> , beleive me, these individuals have become rare.
>
:-)
> Of course , if you say that the atmosphere developed when you hear that
> 78 rpm record isn't the same as when you hear a CD, then you are talking
> about the personal opinion you mentioned towards the end of your
> letter.In which case , even I would agree to some extent tho' not to the
> extent of saying that AR Rahman can be even slightly considered to give
> music which is less than "magical". ( Oh, btw, that is my opiniion there
> :) ).
>
I consider myself to be less fortunate than you since
I do not see the magic in AR's music. I guess my prejudice
against synthesized clouds my judgment. Some day I will
be able to overcome this and then I will agree with you
:-)
> Later,
>Ikram.
As usual, opinions expressed here....
Cheers !
Chetan
Ikram Ahmed Khan
:
: It is not fair to jump to conclusions about AR Rahman, when you
: and you'll see how much better he his than anyone out there today. For
: example, 'Gentleman', 'Thiruda Thiruda', 'Pudhya Mugam', 'Mahamaadam',
: 'Duet', and 'Uzahlan'. The problem with people is that they compare
: contemporary musicians to ones of yesteryear. It's like comparing apples
: and oranges. If you enjoy music from different times in its context, then
: one can truly compare music. I completely agree with you that RD Burman
: was a great music director, who still had tunes left to offer to the
: world (look at 1942: ALS.) AR Rahman is using techniques in making music
: that is innovative amongst Indian movie directors, such as composing his
: music completely on computer, through the use of instrument samples. I
: don't understand a word of Tamil, yet I enjoy his Tamil works.
:
: <-TMW->
Hey TMW,
check the latest ones out too.
Pavithra,
Karuthamma
Puthiya Mannargal.
I haven't heard the last one yet.Somebody on the net said that it wasn't
much, but I would still wanna see for myself( especially since "tastes
differ" :) )
The other two are good stuff. You'll like 'em.
Ikram.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: In article <1995Apr10.1...@ac.dal.ca>,: >
: > It is not fair to jump to conclusions about AR Rahman, when you
: >and you'll see how much better he his than anyone out there today. For
: >example, 'Gentleman', 'Thiruda Thiruda', 'Pudhya Mugam', 'Mahamaadam',
: >'Duet', and 'Uzahlan'. The problem with people is that they compare
: >contemporary musicians to ones of yesteryear. It's like comparing apples
: >and oranges. If you enjoy music from different times in its context, then
: >one can truly compare music. I completely agree with you that RD Burman
: >was a great music director, who still had tunes left to offer to the
: >world (look at 1942: ALS.) AR Rahman is using techniques in making music
: >that is innovative amongst Indian movie directors, such as composing his
: >music completely on computer, through the use of instrument samples. I
: >don't understand a word of Tamil, yet I enjoy his Tamil works.
: I was just wondering what you meant by "composing his music
: entirely on a computer" !? If you meant that he is using
: synthesized sound, then let me point out (as I did in an
: earlier post on this subject) that synthesized sound is
: not the same as "natural" sound. In fact it is significantly
: inferior. The main reason is that sound is synthesized
: using a "model" for music (often, a parametric model)
: and I don't think any of the models used is
: sophisticated enough to capture music. Anyways, I do
: know that there is a difference and one can tell the
: difference between natural and synthesized sound simply
: by listening carefully. Of course synthesized sound
: does have the advantage of being able to preclude
: distortion due to human limitation. But then, what is the
: sound of a sitar without the slight sound of metal
: against the string ? Or the sound of the sarod without
: the delicious rubbing of the shell against steel ?
: ...Just expressing an opinion.
: <-TMW->
: >
: Cheers !
: Chetan
: >
Chetan
you must have heard of these Computer music courses right? I mean at
T A&M (sorry for the marketing :) ) I work in a lab which is made for
use in the Computer music scene. Yes, I agree with you that you won't be
able to reproduce the actual sound of the sitar but I also beleive that
if you are listening to a recording, some of the frequencies have
already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ..., I wouldn't want to
debunk technology which is making it possible for these same 78 rpm
records to be available on CDs where that annoying hiss (do you folks
still remember that? Might want to see Mirch Masala in case you don't
:) ) has been digitally removed using these infamous much-abused
computers.
Another fact, digital sound isn't that bad as it is very much possible
in today's technological world to mimic sound in a way that is
reasonably accurate so that only the keenest "eared" individuals will be
able to make out the difference. and in today's world of Noise pollution
, beleive me, these individuals have become rare.
Of course , if you say that the atmosphere developed when you hear that
78 rpm record isn't the same as when you hear a CD, then you are talking
about the personal opinion you mentioned towards the end of your
letter.In which case , even I would agree to some extent tho' not to the
extent of saying that AR Rahman can be even slightly considered to give
music which is less than "magical". ( Oh, btw, that is my opiniion there
:) ).
Later,
Ikram.
Ashok
> T A&M (sorry for the marketing :) ) I work in a lab which is made for
> use in the Computer music scene. Yes, I agree with you that you won't be
> able to reproduce the actual sound of the sitar but I also beleive that
> if you are listening to a recording, some of the frequencies have
> already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
> produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
> especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
> that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
> original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ...,
> Ikram.
The sound you heard in ShahJehan is not Mukhesh's but Rafi's. And the
song is not "Jab dil hi toot gaya" but "Roohi roohi meri sapanon ki rani."
BTW, I am serious. Listen to the very end of the song.
Ashok
Pavan Kumar Desikan
: > already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
: > produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
: > especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
: > that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
: > original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ...,
: > ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > Ikram.
: The sound you heard in ShahJehan is not Mukhesh's but Rafi's. And the
: song is not "Jab dil hi toot gaya" but "Roohi roohi meri sapanon ki rani."
: BTW, I am serious. Listen to the very end of the song.
: Ashok
I am kind of out of touch with this thread and do not know what exactly is
being discussed. But both the songs "Jab Dil Hi toot gayaa" and "roohi
roohi mere sapnon ki raani" are sung by KLSaigal.(Little wonder you were
unable to recover Mukesh's voice from that ;-]). I remember having read
that Rafi was given an opportunity by Naushad(the MD of Shahjehan) to be a
part of a chorus in the movie and I do not know exctly which song it
is. If anybody else knows .....
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Department of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708-0129
Internet: p...@cs.duke.edu
Neeraj Malhotra
> The sound you heard in ShahJehan is not Mukhesh's but Rafi's. And the
> song is not "Jab dil hi toot gaya" but "Roohi roohi meri sapanon ki rani."
>
> BTW, I am serious. Listen to the very end of the song.
Roohi roohi roohi meri sapanon ki rani is sung by K.L. Saigal.
He sings it himself on the screen.
- Neeraj Malhotra.
> Ashok
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: > you must have heard of these Computer music courses right? I mean at
: > T A&M (sorry for the marketing :) ) I work in a lab which is made for
: > use in the Computer music scene. Yes, I agree with you that you won't be
: > able to reproduce the actual sound of the sitar but I also beleive that
: > if you are listening to a recording, some of the frequencies have
: > already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
: > produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
: > especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
: > that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
: > original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ...,
: > ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > Ikram.
: The sound you heard in ShahJehan is not Mukhesh's but Rafi's. And the
: song is not "Jab dil hi toot gaya" but "Roohi roohi meri sapanon ki rani."
: BTW, I am serious. Listen to the very end of the song.
: Ashok
Sorry folks, me has goofed again !
The song is actually sung by KL S himself as he's the guy starring in the
movie.(BTW, I agree he has a very pukhta voice but to cast him as Shahjehan
tsk tsk :) No offense meant to the KL S fans.)
I got confused as to which song I am talking about. I was actually talking
about this one but then went ahead and confused it with dil jalta hai .
Once again , apologies all!!
Later,
Ikram.
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
Ashok <adhar...@worldbank.org> wrote:
Hi Ashok and others posting followup to his article:
PLEASE start posting on a new thread. Your message or the message
you are responding to has no connection to Ilayaraaja, AR Rehaman
or Shankar-Jaikishan compared with Ilayaraaja.
Sandeep
P.S. This is true for many article. They could do the same.
What I normally do is I will start a new thread, and inside
the thread I would reference some of the previous article.
Hope this helps.
Ahosk>> you must have heard of these Computer music courses right? I mean at
>> T A&M (sorry for the marketing :) ) I work in a lab which is made for
>> use in the Computer music scene. Yes, I agree with you that you won't be
>> able to reproduce the actual sound of the sitar but I also beleive that
>> if you are listening to a recording, some of the frequencies have
>> already been counted off (be it tape or CD or ...). We have yet to
>> produce a thing which exactly reproduces a "natural sound". And
>> especially since I really wouldn't want to say that the 78 rpm record
>> that we had of ShahJehan is pathetic music as it does not reproduce the
> ^^^^^^^^^
>> original sound of Mukesh in Dil hi toot gaya ...,
Arun Mahajan
> The song is actually sung by KL S himself as he's the guy starring in the
> movie.(BTW, I agree he has a very pukhta voice but to cast him as Shahjehan
> tsk tsk :) No offense meant to the KL S fans.)
No offence taken.
But, from what I remember of this movie that I saw yrs ago on D'darshan,
Saigal doesnt play ShahJehan. He is a poet, and is in love with Roohi, who is
the daughter of some high official (S Modi?) in ShahJehan's court.
Anyway, he composes this song as a mark of his love, and that song gets to
be very popular and gets sung in streets (that is why there is a chorus
in the song, it is the common folk on the streets who are singing this song).
And all this to the embarassment of Roohi offcourse.
.arun
Hindimidi
related to Mukesh's song "Jhoomke chali hawa" in Sangeet samrat taansen?
(Or have added another dimension to this confusion :-))
Any takers?
Surendra
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: > The song is actually sung by KL S himself as he's the guy starring in the
: No offence taken.
: .arun
Sorry all, I have no knowledge of KL S! I made a BIG mistake of assuming
that if a movie is entitled Shahjehan and KL S is the star then he has to
be in the title role.
I am sure that people can give many examples of this not being true.
Very famous one that I can think of is "Mughal-e-azam" where Dilip Kumar
is the prince Salim and not the Mughal-e-azam.
As penance for some real bloomers on this thread by me, I'll write a few
points about "Mughal-e-azam" -- the movie. This is for all those among us
who asked whether Prithviraaj was actually in the movie etc. etc. and not
for the netgurus ... who probably will be writing corrections to the
bloomers that I will almost certainly make in the foll article :-
PrithviRaj Kapoor (father of Raj Kapoor) had to be persuaded to star in
this film. He was no longer interested in appearing in movies. And he
didn't want to play character roles like Akbar where the movie is
apparently going to have Salim (Dilip) as the hero. But he was persuaded
by all, when they told him that the name of the movie is Mughal-e-azam and
that you are gonna play the title role. Y'know the " in & as" thing....
Another apocryphal story (note the use of the word apo..., people should
no longer take whatever I say to be the gospel truth), is about the (non)
awarding of the Filmfare award for Best Supporting Actor to PrithviRaj as
he was in the title role of the film and therefore was eligible to compete
only for the Best Actor award. So even tho' he turned in a masterly
performance, he didn't get an award for this ...
On a similar note, we have the incidence of Vyjyanthimala refusing her
award for Best Supporting Actress for Devdaas as according to her, she was
a parallel lead in the movie and should therefore be eligible to receive
it in the Best Actress category. I beleive there was a massive row between
filmfare and Vyju for quite some time after this incident.
I request one of the netgurus ( or anybody who remebers this to be true)
to please post as such over here or make any corrections ..... :)
Later,
Ikram.
MSpeedy
hi bhios and behenos,
On the subject of Anand Milan I say that he doesn't have much talent
because most of his music are copies from others. Music like LOVE and
VANSH( others but can't remember) are copies. The only original greats he
did was QSQT, DIL, AND BHAGGI. I really don't like copiers.
p.s. Please excuse me if I said something false.
Vamsi T. Mohun
:
: hi bhios and behenos,
absolutely correct....but even DIL and BAAGHI had ripoffs from south movies
from DIL:
o priya priya: exact copy of song of the same name from maniratnam's GITANJALI
from BAAGHI:
tap tap tapori: adapted from maniratnam's AGNI NAKSHATIRAM....GHARSHANA in
telugu
There are so many other songs, in their later movies, which they copied....
I can't even list them here.
vamsi
S.Jagadish
> from BAAGHI:
> tap tap tapori: adapted from maniratnam's AGNI NAKSHATIRAM....GHARSHANA in
> telugu
the song adapted from ?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S.Jagadish
Computer Engineering Year 2
Gaddamanugu Vishwa Prasad
>> from BAAGHI:
>> tap tap tapori: adapted from maniratnam's AGNI NAKSHATIRAM....GHARSHANA in
>> telugu
>I havent listened to the Baaghi songs ... but which song of Agni Nakshatram is
>the song adapted from ?
Raja.. the song in the railway station (Kartik and co..)
Vishwa
Balaji Thirumalaikumara
>>
>> Raja.. the song in the railway station (Kartik and co..)
>that was the film which discovered P.C.Sriram !
Sorry, but P.C. Sriram was already discovered in Kamal Haasan's Raaja Parvai.
much before Mani Rathnam was even famous. I dont think that P.C.Sriram's
work in Agni was all that good, BTW. He was much better in RajaParvai, Nayagan
and Devar Magan. He shot Agni like it were an advertisement for something.
---
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Balaji ThirumalaiKumara
Intergraph ELectronics Tel: Off: (415) 691-6497
381 E.Evelyn Ave. Res: (415) 965-2316
Mountain View, CA 94041. Fax: Off: (415) 691-0350
Email: bthi...@crescent.edaca.ingr.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
S.Jagadish
> Raja.. the song in the railway station (Kartik and co..)
Thanx ... solid song ... excellent beat ... outta the world picturisation ...
that was the film which discovered P.C.Sriram !
Bharath Modayur
|> Sorry, but P.C. Sriram was already discovered in Kamal Haasan's Raaja Parvai.
|> much before Mani Rathnam was even famous. I dont think that P.C.Sriram's
Bharath
The Modem Wizard
: MSpeedy (msp...@aol.com) wrote:
: :
: : hi bhios and behenos,
: : On the subject of Anand Milan I say that he doesn't have much talent
: : because most of his music are copies from others. Music like LOVE and
: : VANSH( others but can't remember) are copies. The only original greats he
: : did was QSQT, DIL, AND BHAGGI. I really don't like copiers.
: :
: : p.s. Please excuse me if I said something false.
Even QSQT had ripoffs. I think 'Kasam Se' was a ripoff of some
'60s song. When you hear A-M's OWN compositions, you realize how bad they
are.
: absolutely correct....but even DIL and BAAGHI had ripoffs from south movies
: from DIL:
: o priya priya: exact copy of song of the same name from maniratnam's GITANJALI
: from BAAGHI:
: tap tap tapori: adapted from maniratnam's AGNI NAKSHATIRAM....GHARSHANA in
: telugu
: There are so many other songs, in their later movies, which they copied....
: I can't even list them here.
: vamsi
:
Let's take a look at some of their recent ripoffs:
SUHAAG: 'Shava, yeh nakra ladki ka' is a copy of a Pakistani song. 'Tere
liye' has the same beats from AR Rahman's 'Roja janeman' from the movie
'Roja'. I think that 'Tana nana na' is also a copy.
BETA: 'Dhak Dhak karne laga' is an exact copy of a song from 'Aadmi aur
Apsara', the Chiranjeevi/Sridevi starrer.
BOL RADHA BOL: 'Tu tu tara' is a copy of a song from 'Dalapathy' (I guess
that's why the song did not appear on the Hindi version of the 'Dalpati'
soundtrack. Another song in the movie was a copy of a Pakistani song.
LAADLA: 'Ladki hai kya' has the same beats from a song in 'Dalpati' (in
Hindi, the song was called 'Nach lachak ke.') 'Mere Gulam' was a copy of
'Rukmani Rukmani' from 'Roja'.
DIL: Big ripoff here. First 'O Priya Priya', and 'Na jane kahan dil ko
gaya' is a copy of a Punjabi song by (Alaap?) Can anyone confirm this for
sure?
MAFIA: Had a copy of the song 'Ottagata Katiko' from Gentleman (sorry for
the spelling, as I don't speak Tamil.)
RAJA BABU: Had a copy of the song 'Chiku buku railu' from Gentleman (an
excellent song!) I think that 'Aa ae' has 'Dhak Dhak' type beats which
were pioneered by Ilyaraaja.
The list goes on and on and on. They copy so much, it's hard to
know what they have wrote themselves. At least they admit their copying.
Viju Shah denied that he lifted 'Tu Cheez Badi hai Mast' from the Fateh
Ali Khan song, saying that it was his own inspiration. The thing that
gets to me is that you see an ad peddling a sountrack with copied songs,
and there is a disclaimer saying 'Stop the piracy, buy original.' What a
crock!!! India needs to remedy their copyright laws, so people like
Ilyaraaja get their due (like half of Anand-Miland's fee!!!) The topper
was when Gulshan Kumar's T-Series company was selling the 'Hum Apke Hai
Kaun' soundtrack with its' own singers. HMV took them to court, and lost!!!!
<-TMW->
Harminder S. Birdi
: DIL: Big ripoff here. First 'O Priya Priya', and 'Na jane kahan dil ko
: sure?
Very true, this was a song by Alaap. However, this is not the only
Alaap tune that was copied. Others were copied too. The one I distinctly
remember is from Beta, Nuch Mundeya, Nach Mundeya - and one in Hatya (can't
remember the tune).
Harminder
Dev Mannemela
The Modem Wizard <ajo...@is.dal.ca> wrote:
>Vamsi T. Mohun (vtm...@mtu.edu) wrote:
>: MSpeedy (msp...@aol.com) wrote:
>BOL RADHA BOL: 'Tu tu tara' is a copy of a song from 'Dalapathy' (I guess
>that's why the song did not appear on the Hindi version of the 'Dalpati'
>soundtrack. Another song in the movie was a copy of a Pakistani song.
>
> The list goes on and on and on. They copy so much, it's hard to
>know what they have wrote themselves. At least they admit their copying.
They admit their copying and they say they are improving the
Ilaiyaraaja originals.!! Talkabout bullshitting! Anyone who has
listened to the tamil/telugu originals of say, "Saathiya thoo ne" from
Love will know how terrific the orchestration and the interludes were..
Recently some one gave a cassette of recent 90s hindi songs...
I was amazed to find so many Ilaiyaraaja copies... THere
was a copy of "Are Emaindhi" from the telugu movie "Aradhana" ("Kadal
Oru Kavithaigal" in tamil) and a bunch of the songs listed in the
previous posts...
I though Anand-Milind were loyal to Ilaiyaraaja. :-) Nope! They have
been copying songs of other south MDS too. Apart from Rehman,
I heard a copy of Keeravani (M.M.Kreem in Hindi! the MD of Criminal)
song "Rose Rose ROja puvva".. I think in Suhaag.
And Anu Malik says "Rehman is creating a lot of waves. But it doesn't
excite me enough to copy him" (or some thing to that effect) and promptly
copies Rehman in Gentleman. You could find a striking disparity in quality
between Rehman's songs and other songs in the soundtrack of "Gentleman".
later,
/dev
--
Dev Mannemela de...@spimageworks.com
Sony Pictures Imageworks (310) 641-1614 (O)
un03...@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
> Chetan Vinchhi (cvin...@telogy.com) wrote:
> : Hello,
>
> : Reading all the discussion about AR prompted this post.
>
> : When I listen to AR's compositions I am somehow filled
> : with a feeling of incompleteness. A likely explanation
> : is the fact that he tends to use a lot of synthesised
> : sound as music. Did anybody else get the feeling ? I
> : just cannot get to like the songs too much. I would
> : much rather prefer a song that has just real tabla and
> : maybe a real flute for music accompaniment. Anyways,
> : I never liked excessive fusion of western ideas into
> : Indian music. Now maybe *that* is the real explanation.
Hi,
u r exactly right. i too feel the same. Initially i thought that being
an admirer/fan of Ilayaraja, i was sorta biased against ARR. but thats not so.
It doesnt sound like from deep within. Though some of them sound catchy i dont
think they could create a lasting impression in one true listener's mind. The
very fact that he doesn't care very much on the singer's pronunciation or even
the req'd quality of voice, goes to prove that he is a superficial guy and
wants to make just fun .
"kaaRRuLLa pOdhE thooRRikkoL"
It is the media hype and the MTV mania in India that attracts people towards
him and also the greatest support of the real great directors which makes a
distinct difference. somebody said it right. " ARR could become shaquil O neal
but Ilayaraja is Michael Jordan!" How's that!!
viji
S.Jagadish
> by which people who copy others' compositions are thrown into jail.
Then ppl like Anand Milind, Annu Malik and Nadeem Shravan will all be counting
the bars ... then who composes the music in that case ?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
S.Jagadish
Computer Engineering Year 2
Nanyang Technological University
Singapore
E-Mail : SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG : University E-Mail address
jaga...@hpsgk1.sgp.hp.com : Hewlett Packard (Industrial Attachment)
Die hard Kamal Hassan visiri ... from Kalatthur Kannama to Andhra Jaalara !!
Sometimes My Postings are smaller than my signature ! ;-)
Why Dun U try out Indrajaal : http://www2.ntu.ac.sg:8000/~bn338405/intro.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vamsi T. Mohun
: > should kick their butts out of the industry.....or a law should be passed
: > by which people who copy others' compositions are thrown into jail.
:
: Then ppl like Anand Milind, Annu Malik and Nadeem Shravan will all be counting
: the bars ... then who composes the music in that case ?
Dear Sir!
did you by any chance know that there might be tens(at least) of composers
who never get a big break.....there are already a few who do get the breaks
and also manage to prove themselves.....
let's have a lot of composers......we will naturally have a lot of good tunes
too.....let's NOT have a couple of second-handers monopolizing the market...
BTW my original posting was directed mainly at anand-milind(sigh) who basically
live off other composer's tunes......
come to think of it.....copying some tune once in a while is one thing....
copying every other tune they compose is another thing altogether...
later
vamsi