Ustaad Alladiya Khan
c.parth...@gmail.com
Is there any recording of Ustaad Alladiya Khan Sahib, the Jaypur
doyen, available ? I am trying for a couple of years but couldn't get
hold of any. His sons' recordings are available, even on Internet, but
not his. Just curious to know his discography (if any), and/or hear
his voice.
Partha
Akash
really? where did you find recordings of his sons? Can you please post
the links? I would be greatful if you can do it.
Thanks.
AG
Town Crier
> Is there any recording of Ustaad Alladiya Khan Sahib, the Jaypur
> doyen, available ?
The mystery is deep. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustad_Alladiya_Khan
says he died in 1946, whereas Shrutiji http://www.spock.com/Ustad-Alladiya-Khan
dates that event at 1976. Even if it was 1946, there should be some
records of his around unless he steadfastly refused to entertain
recording companies. What can Shri Suresh Chandwankar of the Record
Collectors Association tell us? I am copying this to him in case he
doesn't read rmic and will report his reply.
DG
c.parth...@gmail.com
> On Apr 11, 8:50 pm, "c.parthapra...@gmail.com"
>
> > Is there any recording of Ustaad Alladiya Khan Sahib, the Jaypur
> > doyen, available ?
>
> says he died in 1946, whereas Shrutijihttp://www.spock.com/Ustad-Alladiya-Khan
> dates that event at 1976. Even if it was 1946, there should be some
> records of his around unless he steadfastly refused to entertain
> recording companies. What can Shri Suresh Chandwankar of the Record
> Collectors Association tell us? I am copying this to him in case he
> doesn't read rmic and will report his reply.
>
> DG
A Bhurji Khan short piece (Deshkar fragment) was sent to me through
Fileshare.com. I believe it's still there. I have lost the link, but
can request for the link again. I'll definitely post on RMIC.
Regards
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> > Is there any recording of Ustaad Alladiya Khan Sahib, the Jaypur
> > doyen, available ?
>
> says he died in 1946, whereas Shrutijihttp://www.spock.com/Ustad-Alladiya-Khan
> dates that event at 1976. Even if it was 1946, there should be some
> records of his around unless he steadfastly refused to entertain
> recording companies. What can Shri Suresh Chandwankar of the Record
> Collectors Association tell us? I am copying this to him in case he
> doesn't read rmic and will report his reply.
1976 is too late. He would have been 125+ years old! 1946 sounds about
right. As for a recording, there used to be an urban legend about
Azizuddin Khan (Alladiya Khan's grandson) possessing a wax cylinder
recording of the maestro. I don't know anyone who has seen/heard it.
There are similar rumours about Bakhlebua's recording. Someone even
had a scratchy recording touted to be his (Jaunpuri IIRC. I haven't
heard it but someone who has said you cannot make out anything from
it).
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> A Bhurji Khan short piece (Deshkar fragment) was sent to me through
> Fileshare.com. I believe it's still there. I have lost the link, but
> can request for the link again. I'll definitely post on RMIC.
This is amazing. If you have a copy perhaps you can upload on one of
those file sharing sites and send a link!
C
dn.usenet
"Town Crier" <deadly...@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> The mystery is deep. Wikipedia says he died in 1946, whereas
> Shrutiji http://www.spock.com/Ustad-Alladiya-Khan
> dates that event at 1976. Even if it was 1946 ...
>
There is no deep mystery, just deep ignorance on your part.
Enough material exists online and off-line to be able to determine
easily that Alladiya Khan died in 1946. The site which gives his
lifespan as 1885-1976 is plain wrong. Mansur was born in 1910.
His guru Manji Khan, Alladiya's second son, was born in 1888.
Alladiya would have had to be unusually powerful to be born
in 1885 and then have sired a son in 1888.
Parthapratim is a fool. No recording of Alladiya Khan or
Manji Khan or Bhurji Khan exists. Bhurji Khan's son (Baba
Azizuddin) is still active in the field of music but a very old
man now. If a recording by Bhurji Khan existed, it would
have been known about for a long time by now. The
probability of a Bhurji Khan recording coming to light
this late is practically zero.
I repeat : 'Parthapratim' (yet another pseudonymous coward
to grace RMIC) is a fool and no credence should be given
to anything said by him. It is possible that somebody sent
him a recording by Geeta Dutt and told him it is in Bhurji
Khan's voice and the moron believed it.
Suresh Chandvankar had played a recording by a Jaipur
singer who had heard Alladiya Khan IIRC, but whose name
I forget now; the veteran singer had tried to give listeners
a glimpse of Alladiya Khan's singing style. I had
heard the recording in an SIRC session on Kesarbai
in Pune around 1993.
dn.usenet
"Chetan Vinchhi" <vin...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> There are similar rumours about Bakhlebua's recording.
> Someone even had a scratchy recording touted to be
> his (Jaunpuri IIRC.
>
Nobody has heard the alleged record in Alladiya Khan's voice
AFAIK. Bhaskarbuwa Bakhale's 'recording' was played by
Shaila Datar to Master Krishnarao IIRC. But it was just a
theoretical exercise because nobody can hear anything in
that recording. She has dealt with the issue in her book on
Bakhale. It hasn't been determined that the scratchy recording
is in Bakhale's voice; and even if it is, it is of no use.
A similar rumour had surfaced about recordings in Vishnu
Digambar's voice (check RMIC archives), but nothing
came of it.
rmr
can't be sure. Just presenting this as a possibility. Wonderful singing in
any event.
h**p://www.mediafire.com/?n9ovn23mdgg
<c.parth...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5f23c61-1e28-4bbd...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Abhik Majumdar
case, it bears no stylistic resemblance whatsoever with the Atrauli-
Jaipur gayaki. He even sings sargams, for heaven's sake!
http://www.sawf.org/library/?d=page&pid=sp178&parent=57
Nani's right, no recording of Alladiya Khan or any of his sons, or
Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, has been authoritatively authenticated so
far. Lots of fakes abound. Someone once e-mailed me a clip purporting
to be a Bageshri by Vishnu Digambar. It turned out to be a Malgunji
duet by Narayanrao Vyas and Vinayakrao Patvardhan :D
Finally, these topics have been discussed extensively on RMIC several
times in the past. I suggest Parthapratim (or Jitamanyu or whatever
your name is) first go through the archives in order to familiarise
himself with the background to ongoing debates. For example, it's a
well-known fact that Alladiya Khan refused to record his voice or do
radio broadcasts because, as he said, he didn't want his music playing
at paan shops.
Abhik
Akash
Recently I listened a long interview with Baba Azzizuddin Khan. Shruti
Sadolikar was asking him questions. Very good and informative
interview. In that SS mentioned one incident - When Alladiya was
approached by Music Co. in his later age, he refused their proposal
saying "Chehere par zhuriyya aa gayi hai aab kyo aaye ho chabi
nikalney? Jaab chabi nikalney layak thaa taab kuch bana nahi. Aab kya
faida? Aab chabi nikaloge tou aanewali pushte kyaa kahegi? Yehi Jaipur
Gayaki thee?" and he declined. And before that she mentioned about one
bandish by him "Hamari Surat leke rahiye". This was given to Gullubhai
when only few days were left of Alladiya life. Sorry for changing the
tracks......
d00...@uiuc.edu
worth getting upset by. He owns rmic don't you know? So just like Rani
Rashmoni's descendants reputedly still have the right to shut down Strand Road
(a major artery in Calcutta) one day in the year, Nani too has to show his
kotwali from time to time.
I thoroughly enjoyed your Geeta Dutt guess. In fact I think we should all
post some more "far out" answers (to have fun, to recall some favorite or
detested names once in a while just for the heck of it, and, last but never
the least, to test how much harrumphing Nani-ji can do). How about I bet its
one of
Malabika Kanan?
Girija Devi?
Hirabai Barodekar?
Roshanara Begum?
Dhondutai Kulkarni?
Parveen Sultana?
Kaushiki Chakraborty?
Lata Mangeshkar?
Asha Bhonsle?
Rasulan Bai?
Purnima Sen?
Shyama Bose?
Nita Chatterjee?
Come on folks, lets give kotwalji some exercise!!!
r "the lightsword" "double-o" "yes I'm pissed enuff to post this" doogar
PS. kotwal ~ village policeman
Abhik Majumdar
> Girija Devi?
> Hirabai Barodekar?
> Roshanara Begum?
> Dhondutai Kulkarni?
> Parveen Sultana?
> Kaushiki Chakraborty?
> Lata Mangeshkar?
> Asha Bhonsle?
> Rasulan Bai?
> Purnima Sen?
> Shyama Bose?
> Nita Chatterjee?
Why not Faiyaz Khan and Paul Robeson while you're about it?
Abhik
d00...@uiuc.edu
> Why not Faiyaz Khan and Paul Robeson while you're about it?
I had Purna Das Baul as the last name on my list but then took it off, maybe I
should not have.
r
Havanur
> Come on folks, lets give kotwalji some exercise!!!
>
> r "the lightsword" "double-o" "yes I'm pissed enuff to post this" doogar
>
> PS. kotwal ~ village policeman
Er... isn't there something called the Kotwali Gharana?? There was
some discussion about it right here not too long ago. Maybe I got the
spelling a little wrong, googling the group did not turn up anything.
My chavanni would be on a pre independence Kotwali doyenne ... if only
I could get her name !!!
Havanur
c.parth...@gmail.com
I have posted the fragment here http://indianmusic.org.in/bkd.ram ---
the source is said to be the Sadolikar family. Reason to belive is --
remarkable similarity with MM's style, but it's definitely not his
voice, pitch is also lower than MM's.
Partha
Abhik Majumdar
Eh? Have you heard MM take taans this fast? Or anybody from the
shishya parampara of Alladiya Khan? Actually MM has, but only in his
early 78s where he sang in the Gwalior style.
I'm no expert on the Atrauli-Jaipur style, but I wouldn't trust this
recording too much. Could well be Bhurji Khan, it's possible but not
very likely. My hunch says it's someone from the Rajab Ali side of
things.
Abhik
dn.usenet
"Abhik Majumdar" wrote :
>
> Finally, these topics have been discussed extensively on RMIC several
> times in the past. I suggest Parthapratim (or Jitamanyu or whatever
> your name is) first go through the archives in order to familiarise
> himself with the background to ongoing debates.
>
In general, there is no harm in anybody posting opinions. That
is what the forum is for. There isn't much harm in an ass like
Doogar appreciating stupid posts, either. That is what Doogar
is for. The problem with this Jitmanyu (could not recall that
name at all myself) and Partha duo is that they make tons
of stupid posts and try to back them up with grandiose claims
about how Swami Haridas has annointed them the next Baiju
and Tansen, how a prestigious publication is begging them to
write books on ICM, how they are masters of digitization
technology, how they have received mp3 clips of Tansen's
Megh and Deepak from a friend, etc.
"Jitamanyu" had claimed that Gujri is not a Todi. Sanjeev
had responded : "anyone insisting on Gujri not being a Todi
might as well insist on the Kalyan in Gorakh Kalyan". (Or
insist on a brain within Doogar's head.) He had also claimed
that the dominant note in Gujari Todi is rishabh; not just
that but he brazenly tried to misinterpret Ramrang's take
on Todi family. When I checked with Nachiketa Sharma,
he told me that re is definitely not the dominant note
and that he uses gandhar and dhaivat equally, one of them
(take your pick) being the dominant note.
"Jitamanyu" and "Partha" are bigtime jerks and pointing it
out from time to time is good for the forum.
Abhik Majumdar
Aren't you taking him a bit too literally here? I think he also blew
an artery when he saw that 'Geeta Dutt' guess.
> The problem with this Jitmanyu (could not recall thatog name at all myself) and Partha duo is that they make tons of stupid posts
I confess I've also wondered about this. Would really like to know who
they are (or indeed, if they are two different people).
What's your take on the putative Bhurji Khan clip?
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
Well I dunno what Jit wrote exactly, don't have time to find old
posts, but I'd stand by the theory that dominant not in Gurjari is Re
not Ga. Those who implant Todi's typical moves in Gurjari (Todi),
actually kills the Raga. Same is true for Desi Todi, which is
invariably more Desi than Todi. If you make the Nyas on Ga there
instead of moving on to re-ga-sa-re-ni-sa, there is no Desi at all.
And by the way, who is Nachiketa Sharma? Pardon my ignorance!! :)
Partha
dn.usenet
"Abhik Majumdar" wrote :
>
> What's your take on the putative Bhurji Khan clip?
>
Haven't visited the site to download it because all too often
such sites trigger a series of annoying pop-ups. But we can
tap Shruti Sadolikar about it, if necessary.
By the way, Shruti Sadolikar was born around 1952-53 in
a blue blooded Jaipur family. There is no way she doesn't
know that Alladiya Khan died long before 1976. Someone
managing the site for her (assuming it is 'her' site) must have
mistyped Alladiya Khan's lifespan. It is very annoying when
misinformation about such well-known names is carelessly
floated in public domain.
A piece of info has been floating around that Lata is the
step-sister (or half-sister) of her famous siblings. It is
yet another piece of misinformation. It is true that Dinanath
and his first wife had a daughter named Lata. But this Lata
died very young, and then her mother also died. I had added
this info on the wiki page for Dinanath for the benefit of
those who might access it to check whether *the* Lata's
mother had died young.
dn.usenet
<c.parth...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> And by the way, who is Nachiketa Sharma? Pardon
> my ignorance!! :)
>
Learn to use internet and you will find some information
about Nachiketa Sharma. Samples of his singing are also
available online.
As for pardoning your ignorance, you don't display
ordinary ignorance but you are foolishness and
ignorance personified.
c.parth...@gmail.com
> <c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote :
I did, and I heard his clips from http://www.ganapriya.com/cd01/cd01-index.html.
Can't say liked them very much. He is basically off-tune. His steady
notes are never steady. In Charukeshi clip he begins the cheez from
high SA, but the voice never reached there.Many SRA students are here
who sing better than this hyped kid, who supposedly amalgamates
(Source: http://cdbaby.com/cd/nachiketa2) two diametrically opposite
styles of Kirana and Gwalior (which precisely means he imbibed
neither). Dear dn.usenet (are you Daniel Fuchs?), if you have to swear
by this quality of vocal music, I must say I pity you.
By the way, sorry folks, we are completely off-topic. What happened to
Alladiya Khan Sahib's recording? You say, there is none?
Partha
Chetan Vinchhi
> > remarkable similarity with MM's style
>
> recording too much. Could well be Bhurji Khan, it's possible but not
> very likely. My hunch says it's someone from the Rajab Ali side of
> things.
Am unable to listen to this. Can someone share an mp3?
C
Havanur
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By the way, sorry folks, we are completely off-topic. What happened to
> Alladiya Khan Sahib's recording? You say, there is none?
>
> Partha
Your clip isn't from Alladiya Khan's family for sure. Going by the
vocal accompaniment and daads near the end it must be a non studio
concert recorded on (by now worn out) tape. That puts it well after
1950, the year Bhurji Khan died. The general question about Alladiya
Khan's recordings has already been answered several times on this
thread.
Havanur
c.parth...@gmail.com
OK, I am sending to your email.
Regards
c.parth...@gmail.com
May be you are right, but may not be as well, as your logic has a flaw
in it. Well, what's your opinion about say, Faiyaz Khan Sahib's Kapar
Gouri, or the Live Marwa recordings? After 1950? But he died in 1950.
If all non-studio recordings are done after 1950, how could we have
Rahmat Khan's recordings?
Partha
d00...@uiuc.edu
> Er... isn't there something called the Kotwali Gharana?? There was
You may be thinking of "kotali," close enuff to get a cigar (or coconut) in my
book:
http://www.biswabratachakrabarti.com/kotali/
I did not have the good fortune to hear Pt. Manas Chakraborty live in his
prime, people of impeccable taste and judgment including some of the most
eminent performers of today who have heard Manas-babu then speak extremely
favorably of his singing. I did hear him at Dover Lane a couple of years ago
and must say that I was blown away by the joie de vivre with which he sang, it
was a blast from the past that blew away many of the poofters who mewl their
way through ICM these days. The sheer gusto with which he sings reminds one
of the Denis Compton story where Compton, at nets, was reproached by the coach
for having his left foot too far forward when he had just thumped a nice and
hard cover drive. Next ball, same result, same comment. Next ball, same
result, same comment, Dennis says "Forget my left foot, look at the damn
ball." We've gotten so **** about shuddhata and shastriyata in these
discussions on ICM that we are on the verge of having a completely rasa-viheen
performance and come out orgasming about nits when the performance was dry as
a bone. As I listen to more and more of the old masters, I think most of all
they're having fun! Much of today's music performances seems more designed to
impress than to make you feel. Or maybe we're so intellectually constipated
that the artistes who perform for can sense our dryness and therefore give us
performances with this Twiggy aesthetic. I don't know. Maybe Nani is right,
I don't have the brains to appreciate every minor Maharashtrian nautanki
yowler who can't banao a bol. Whatever. I'll take a Manas Charaborty or a
Jagadish Kumar performance (bad or good) anyday over one the dime-a-dozen
over-bred gramatically shuddha mewlers infesting the current vocal scene (in
North America anyway) any day or night of the week.
Whatever happened to con brio, con gusto, mucho gusto?
r.
Daniel Fuchs
"dn.usenet" wrote:
> I repeat : 'Parthapratim' (yet another pseudonymous coward
> to grace RMIC)
Nani,
although I have had the opportunity to share the wealth of ignorance
that came from the parthapratim email account (which several people seem
to share, one of which was unable to recognize the sound of a simple
Tabla hammer...), please allow me to remark that "dn.usenet" isn't much
different. Some here may know you (since you posted with your full name
earlier), but I would consider your current postings anonymous as well.
Daniel
dn.usenet
<d00...@uiuc.edu> wrote :
>
> The sheer gusto with which Manas Chakraborty sings ...
>
> Maybe Nani is right, I don't have the brains
> to appreciate every minor Maharashtrian nautanki
> yowler who can't banao a bol.
> ... anyday over one the dime-a-dozen
>
There is no 'maybe' about it. You definitely are an idiot.
If you had had an iota of sense, you would not have turned
a discussion on vocal music into Maharashtra vs Bengal.
There are a dozen and more classical musicians from
Maharashtra whose shoelace Manas Chakraborty is
not fit to tie (according to people of impeccable taste and
judgement, etc). On the other hand, if you are looking
for minor nautanki yowlers, why point to Maharashtra
when enough of your fellow bongs in Kolkata qualify
more ably for the honour?
c.parth...@gmail.com
@Havanur: First outdoor recording system in India was introduced by
the Imperial Film Company back in March, 1931. Working model of a tape-
recorder K1 (from Germany) was brought to India in 1937. So, recording
of Manji Khan wasn't possible on K1 type system, but Bhurji Khan was
highly possible. Therefore, "since it's tape-recorded it can't be
dated earlier than 1950" theory is wrong. In fact there are quite a
few concert recordings available during '37 and '50. In Kolkata,
Jhankar concerts were all recorded on spools. Among which I have a
copy of Amir Khan's Marwa - Hansadhwani that was there back in 1949. I
know there are many others. I am not sure of the dates of Amir Khan
Abhogi, Shudh Kalyan; or Kesarbai Kerkar's Lalita-Gouri; however they
were done on same or similar systems and during the same time bracket.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
What gives you the right to denigrate named musicians, apart from your
own unfathomable abysmal idiocy?
dn.usenet
<c.parth...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> What gives you the right to denigrate named musicians ...
>
Did you not pass unfavourable comments on Nachiketa
Sharma only yesterday? He is a named musician who is
a far better singer than you will ever be. If you want to
dish it out, be ready to get some back in return.
I repeat : there are a dozen or more musicians from
Maharashtra whose shoelace Manas Chakkarborty
is not fit to tie.
All you have achieved so far on RMIC during last 2-3
days is this : 1) announced your own stupidity repeatedly,
and
2) won a moron (Rajib Doogar) as your admirer who
lovingly rubs ointment on your sorry ass when it is
kicked and offers you 'sage' advice.
d00...@uiuc.edu
> On the other hand, if you are looking
> for minor nautanki yowlers, why point to Maharashtra
> when enough of your fellow bongs in Kolkata qualify
> more ably for the honour?
Ah, there's the difference 'twixt us: I hold no special candle for anyone, and
am on the record as being severely critical as and when the circumstances
require (unlike some folks who have a certain repute for harboring the sort of
markedly parochial preferences that I was alluding to).
r "the name's Bong, James Bong" "double-o" d00gar
d00...@uiuc.edu
> I repeat : there are a dozen or more musicians from
> Maharashtra whose shoelace Manas Chakkarborty
> is not fit to tie.
Living? Or are you including the entire corps of late (and sorely lamented)
stalwarts as well?
Names? After all, we come hear to be ejukated!
r "beta chakkar mein bhi chakkar hote hain, jara takkar le ke to dekho" d00gar
dn.usenet
<d00...@uiuc.edu> wrote :
>
> I hold no special candle for anyone ...
>
We saw what candle you hold for whom when you dragged
Maharashtra in the discussion without any provocation for it.
Be assured that your pathetic nature stands exposed
through your own posts, however much you may want
to backtrack now.
c.parth...@gmail.com
> <c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote :
If you don't understand the qualitative difference between Manas
Chakrabarti and your horse Nachiketa, you better not talk about music
at all. Just keep shut, so that we can think you are wise.
Partha
d00...@uiuc.edu
> We saw what candle you hold for whom when you dragged
> Maharashtra in the discussion without any provocation for it.
Nein, nein, meine liebe dumkopf. 'tis thy publicly paraded parochialism that
is the link here, not the geographical region per se that thou hideth behind.
"Patriotism, sir, is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
r. "But its such fun to set you off Nani!" d00gar
c.parth...@gmail.com
I'm afraid RMIC is not a place for racist spammers like you. Join
talibani force instead. That's your forte.
c.parth...@gmail.com
Ha ha ha ha!! OK, you guys have fun. For me, this Alladiya Khan thread
is closed. And by the way, THERE EXISTS ONE RECORDING OF ALLADIYA
KHAN, according to the collectors like Sharbari Roychowdhury, and
that's somewhere in Mumbai. No idea how to get hold of it. If I am
ever able to manage a copy, I'll share it.
Partha
djame...@gmail.com
If I could get back to the recorded audio clip, please. You said it is
said to be sourced from the sadolikar family. Is that the only
information on it? I would be happy to send the link to shruti and
ask her about it, if anyone has her email id. It is intriguing! I
have seen a photograph of a large quantity of boxes of wire recordings
sitting in the city museum in jaipur and who knows what treasures
those may hold. Unless there is money to be made from them they are
likely to sit there un-listened to, indefinitely. James
dn.usenet
<djame...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> If I could get back to the recorded audio clip, please. You said it is
> said to be sourced from the sadolikar family. Is that the only
> information on it? I would be happy to send the link to shruti and
> ask her about it, if anyone has her email id. It is intriguing!
>
There is no harm in asking Shruti Sadolikar but it doesn't
sound intriguing to me. The source of the claim (Parthapratim)
is a clueless ass, and Abhik Majumdar has already commented
that stylistically the recording points elsewhere than Jaipur.
I also think that if such a piece comes to light, it is more
likely to be published or talked about via a more 'official'
channel than show up in the inbox of a dolt like Partha.
> I have seen a photograph of a large quantity of boxes of wire recordings
> sitting in the city museum in jaipur and who knows what treasures
> those may hold. Unless there is money to be made from them they are
> likely to sit there un-listened to, indefinitely. James
>
One never knows but I don't think the boxes hint at a reasonable
probability that they may contain the voice of Alladiya Khan or
Manji Khan or Bhurji Khan. Whether any recording in their
voice exists has been a matter of speculation for years, and
if one existed, someone in the know would have spoken about
it long ago (around 1940-1960 frame). The real surprise is that
even after Alladiya Khan's death, no strong attempt was
probably made to record the voice of Bhurji Khan, his one
surviving son, before it was too late. Baba Azizuddin Khan
may be able to shed some light on this point.
Abhik Majumdar
familiarise yourself with existing literature.
> Well, what's your opinion about say, Faiyaz Khan Sahib's Kapar Gouri, or the Live Marwa recordings? After 1950? But he died in 1950. If all non-studio recordings are done after 1950, how could we have
Rahmat Khan's recordings?
Not just Faiyaz Khan but others as well had had their AIR broadcasts
preserved on aluminium discs coated in shellac. That apart, the
Mahisadal palace recitals of Faiyaz Khan (c) 1942 were recorded on
wire recorders.
There have been other techniques in existence as well, like Arnold
Bake's teficord device, but that's not important.
Rahimat Khan's extant recordings are are all studio recordings
released as 78s. If at all any non-studio recordings exist, they must
have been done on a wax cylinder machine, like that Bhaskarbuwa
fragment. Rahimat Khan died in 1920.
(BTW, I believe Buwa's student DC Vedi has authenticated that
recording; in any case there exists a general consensus it's genuine.)
And finally, the whole debate on technology is in toto irrelevant. It
doesn't take a genius to figure out that suitable recording techniques
were available in the lifetime of Alladiya Khan, even Manji Khan. The
thing is, neither the Bade Mian nor his sons were willing to record.
According to the musicologist Amlan Dasgupta, though, they had all
agreed to record, but died before the recordings could take place.
About someone having recorded the clip on the sly on a field-recording
device, of course the possibility exists, but it would take a LOT of
verification to have such a recording authenticated.
And that leads to my second point. the clip bears lots of
dissimilarities with the styles of Mansur or Kesarbai or Mogubai. (I'm
surprised nobody has seen fit to comment on this observation of mine.)
Lastly, about that Amir Khan Marwa/Hamsadhvani you mention, is the
Marwa about an hour long and features the Bada Khayal 'E Jag Baavre'?
What bandish were sung in Hamsadhvani? There's a good chance the
recording you mention actually dates back only to 1955 or 1957 - it
was of a concert at Dixon Lane IIRC.
@ Havanur
> Going by the vocal accompaniment and daads near the end it must be a non studio concert recorded on (by now worn out) tape.
I don't agree, and on two counts. First, primitive magnetic recording
technology did exist much prior to 1950. The 1942 wire recording I
mentioned is an example.
Secondly, my guess is the recording was _not_ done on magnetic medium.
There's a lot of scratchiness and other physical noise, which hints at
a groove recording of some sort. Some of noise fades in and out
periodically, a strong indication of a badly aligned turntable.
I'll upload an excerpt from a 1942 recording, just to demonstrate
characteristic differences between the two recording media.
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
Abhik raised two questions:
1. Did MM ever take so fast taans? Answer is yes. Listen to his Marwa
drut "Piya bina jiyara nikaso jat", in the 4 min odd rendering he
took some awesome taans in the middle of bandish. The same is true for
his Bhoop and Marubihag renderings. None of these are 78 records, nor
are they Gwalior style stuff. For more clarification I'd request you
to listen to MM's Deshkar recording (AIR release). At around 2:40 of
the recording, exactly the same phrase is sung by MM. The finishing is
different, of course, two different human beings. But the distinct G-P
G-P G-P G-P-D, and D-S-R-S-D-S-D-S D P are their stylistic markers.
3. He gussed that it could be someone on the "Rajab Ali side of the
story". Now that's impossible. Rajab Ali represents Kirana tankaari
which is linear and regularly patterned, unlike Jaipur's intricate
style. I have heard only one piece of Rajab Ali (courtsey Rajan
Parrikar's site), but Roshanara Begum, who assimilated that taankaari,
I have heard many. There's no possibility of confusing between Jaipur
and Kirana taankari.
2. (based on a wrong information that the Jhankar concert, yes Dixon
Lane, dates back to 55 and not 49) that all long recordings before 50
are essentially not on tapes but some other technology, be it
aluminium or wax or whatever. No sir, actually I inherit some family
properties that include such long tape recordings done at around
42-43, that is before my grandfather passed away in 44. It was a house
concert on the occassion of wedding of one my aunts, and that too
consists of such periodical noise. One side of the spool was exposed
to heat somehow, and the noise occurs right there.
Asking Shruti-ji would do no harm. If she asks the source, you can't
take my name, but I'll disclose the original poster's name at that
time. He is someone from Delhi, another vocalist.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
> Partha, I'm no votary of Nani, but I strongly feel you need to
> familiarise yourself with existing literature.
>
> > Well, what's your opinion about say, Faiyaz Khan Sahib's Kapar Gouri, or the Live Marwa recordings? After 1950? But he died in 1950. If all non-studio recordings are done after 1950, how could we have
>
> Rahmat Khan's recordings?
>
> Not just Faiyaz Khan but others as well had had their AIR broadcasts
> preserved on aluminium discs coated in shellac. That apart, the
> Mahisadal palace recitals of Faiyaz Khan (c) 1942 were recorded on
> wire recorders.
>
> There have been other techniques in existence as well, like Arnold
> Bake's teficord device, but that's not important.
>
> Rahimat Khan's extant recordings are are all studio recordings
> released as 78s. If at all any non-studio recordings exist, they must
> have been done on a wax cylinder machine, like that Bhaskarbuwa
> fragment. Rahimat Khan died in 1920.
>
> (BTW, I believe Buwa's student DC Vedi has authenticated that
> recording; in any case there exists a general consensus it's genuine.)
>
the way, AIR after 1937 recorded on tape, but archived on aluminium
discs. In Santiniketan museum, there is one tape recorder acquired by
Rathindranath Tagore, that dates back to 1943. Finally, in our family
archive we have spools that date back to no later than 1943. See my
other post also.
> And finally, the whole debate on technology is in toto irrelevant. It
> doesn't take a genius to figure out that suitable recording techniques
> were available in the lifetime of Alladiya Khan, even Manji Khan. The
> thing is, neither the Bade Mian nor his sons were willing to record.
> According to the musicologist Amlan Dasgupta, though, they had all
> agreed to record, but died before the recordings could take place.
>
> About someone having recorded the clip on the sly on a field-recording
> device, of course the possibility exists, but it would take a LOT of
> verification to have such a recording authenticated.
>
> And that leads to my second point. the clip bears lots of
> dissimilarities with the styles of Mansur or Kesarbai or Mogubai. (I'm
> surprised nobody has seen fit to comment on this observation of mine.)
No your stylistic analysis is utterly wrong. Please see my post.
>
> Lastly, about that Amir Khan Marwa/Hamsadhvani you mention, is the
> Marwa about an hour long and features the Bada Khayal 'E Jag Baavre'?
> What bandish were sung in Hamsadhvani? There's a good chance the
> recording you mention actually dates back only to 1955 or 1957 - it
> was of a concert at Dixon Lane IIRC.
!957recording is Abhogi, and '55 is Shudh Kalyan. Please check with
SRA archive. Pt. Gyanprakash Ghosh's personal collection is possibly
at their possession right now. Earlier I have mailed to their
webmaster Ms Ratanabali Bose regarding this recording. But their
answer was vague.
dn.usenet
"Abhik Majumdar" wrote :
>
> thing is, neither the Bade Mian nor his sons were willing to record.
> According to the musicologist Amlan Dasgupta, though, they had all
> agreed to record, but died before the recordings could take place.
>
That would be typical Alladiya Khan. He agreed to be
recorded but just not while he was alive. I wonder what
the deal was about Bhurji Khan, though.
By the way, Shaila Datar's book on Bhaskarbuwa Bakhale
mentions that his recording worth 4 minutes' is available.
I could be misremembering but the impression that I have
carried is that such sample(s) as has survived is practically
useless. It has not been released to the best of my knowledge,
and that is an indicator that the recording (which I remembered
as one short undecipherable line) is not of any use. But one
undecipherable line which I am talking about could be
Alladiya Khan's alleged sample; four minutes is quite a
substantial duration. If anybody (James?) has access to Shaila
Datar, it is worth checking what she thinks about it. And
whether it is just one recording or a collection of a minute
here and a minute there of 2-3 different recordings. If it
is not worth being made public, it is not worth talking about.
Abhik Majumdar
Right and irrelevant at the same time. Let me revise the question to
"Were fast taans a regular feature of MM's gaiki? Were fast taans a
part of the taleem imparted to him by Bhurji Khan (to which the clip
in question is credited)? In short, can we conclude inductively from
the bulk of MM's recordings that the gaiki featured in the clip is the
gaiki that Bhurji Khan taught MM?"
Please don't take the issue of MM's fast taans out of context.
Locating two or three exceptions does not establish that fast taans
were a defining feature of MM's gaiki. I have at least four recordings
of Amir Khan doing proper Gwalioresque Bol-Baant. Even have one where
he sings briefly in vilambit Ektaal (not madhyalaya as in the
commercially relased Hamsadhvani). Does this prove Bol-Baant or Ektaal
were defining features of his gaiki? Certainly not.
And we're only interested in defining features here. Because it is
only by comparing these defining features (and not exceptions that you
proffer) with the clip in question can we ascertain the authenticity
of the latter. Let me summarise all that we're reasonably certain
about:
1) The clip features fast taans
2) MM sang fast taans only rarely
3) Fast taans were not a defining feature of MM's gaiki
4) Likewise, fast taans did not figure prominently of other Jaipur
singers of his generation either
> 3. He gussed that it could be someone on the "Rajab Ali side of the story". Now that's impossible. Rajab Ali represents Kirana tankaari which is linear and regularly patterned, unlike Jaipur's intricate style. I have heard only one piece of Rajab Ali (courtsey Rajan Parrikar's site), but Roshanara Begum, who assimilated that taankaari, I have heard many.
Could I _please_ ask you to do some basic reading? True Rajab Ali
learnt from Hyder Baksh, true Hyder Baksh learnt from Bande Ali, true
Rajab Ali also received taleem on the Been from Bande Ali himself, but
wherever did you get the idea Rajab Ali's taans were linear? Your
unfamiliarity with music history is startling to say the least.
The fact , Hyder Baksh was Alladiya Khan's regular sarangi
accompanist. And through him, Rajab Ali received many stylistic
features of Alladiya Khan's gaiki. Now all this is not mere
conjecture, but a matter of recorded fact. Rajab Ali himself said all
this to B R Deodhar, who narrated the incident in "Pillars of
Hindustani Music".
Now, how did this lengthy explanation on the part of Rajab Ali come
about? It was because Deodhar asked him how come his style was so
similar to Alladiya Khan's. Now, the Jaipur style is recognised to be
taan-pradhaan. So is Rajab Ali's gaiki. And if Deodhar detected strong
similarities between the two styles, it stands to reason the
similarities must lie in the taans, right?
In any case, Rajab Ali's taankari is nowhere near Kirana. I have a few
recordings of his (Jaunpuri, Bageshri, Hem Kalyan, Shankara etc), and
can tell you there's no resemblance between his taans and Roshan
Ara's.
> 2. (based on a wrong information that the Jhankar concert, yes Dixon Lane, dates back to 55 and not 49) that all long recordings before 50 are essentially not on tapes but some other technology
Ouch! Read what I wrote.
> consists of such periodical noise.
What kind of periodic noise? Scratchy noise? Anyways, my hunch says
'non-magnetic recording'.
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
Could have been best if we could get hold of the original media from
which this clip was digitised for the first time. I have never tried
to vary the speed digitally, as i should have done earlier, for old
tapes and playing machines have a tendency to run faster than
intended. But in that case pitch also should have been higher than
original. In this case it is already as low as C#, was the original
even lower than this? I dunno. What I know is, I can locate the exact
phraseology in MM's rendering, irrespective of pitch, tempo etc.
Then comes the Rajab Ali side. I have written that these taans are
either linear (saral, saral avrohi taan is a feature for all Rajab Ali
clips I've heard now, and I can relate them more to AKK's avrohi taan)
or regularly patterned. This latter part, Roshan Ara Begum herself
attributed to Rajab Ali and Amanat (his nephew). What can I say? I
remember Dr. Prabha Atre in a recent (2006) seminar/workshop in
Santiniketan told the same thing. But Jaipur style demonstrates none
of the above. There are patterns but they are asymmetric, irregular.
Linear moves are almost absent, even in ragas like Bhoop they manage
to find an asymmetric way of rendering it.
Yes, Rajab Ali vs. Alladiya Khan anecdotes are widely popular. But
tell me, is Vilayat Khan's style similar to Ravishankar's? In their
time, this old duo was related to each other somewhat in a similar
fashion, Rajab Ali playing the Vilayat Khan part. Rajab Ali's gaiki
was definitely Taan-pradhan. But Jaipur style taan-pradhan? I don't
remember anybody else saying that. On the contrary, would you mind
seeing the Prasar Bharati documentary on MM once more, where Shubha
Mudgal did the anchoring. MM clearely refutes this qualifier taan-
pradhan and says that it's an illusion possibly because of the clean
finishing of every phrase right on Sam. Doosre log sam ko kabhi kabhi
pakadte, hamare yahan sam bas pakda hi rehta, and thus the whole
format is often mistaken as taans. Pt Bhimsen Joshi says he is
influenced by Kesarbai's style, and that has been obvious in his Yamni
Bilawal. His taan also carries a typical element of Vazebua. But after
all that, he is still a Kirana exponent. Not Jaipur or Gwalior. Same
is true for Rajab Ali Khan. Why, because they all primarily sang
Kirana cheez and ragadhyan.
The history of music you are talking about is anecdote-based. The one
I am talking about is based on formal analysis instead.
Partha
Abhik Majumdar
Which would not prove much, only that the singer was influenced by
Atrauli-Jaipur. From that to Bhurji Khan is a long step.
Secondly, the recording was clearly not speeded up too much, if at
all. The voice sounds clearly post-pubescent male. If this is his
voice pitch _after_ speeding up, the original must be closer to Paul
Robeson than anybody from Jaipur.
> saral, saral avrohi taan is a feature for all Rajab Ali clips I've heard now,
This goes against all that anybody's said about his gaiki. Let me
expand on it
> This latter part, Roshan Ara Begum herself attributed to Rajab Ali and Amanat (his nephew). What can I say? I remember Dr. Prabha Atre in a recent (2006) seminar/workshop in Santiniketan told the same thing.
As in Rajab Ali's taans were regularly patterned, and Roshanara Begum
incorporated them into her gaiki and gave credit to Rajab Ali? And
Prabha Atre said so?
Pandit Amarnath says roughly the opposite. And these are indeed his
own words, not my distant recollection of an unpublished (and so
practically unverifiable) lecture.
http://ragavani.org/AR_AmirKhanGayaki_071119.aspx
In any case, just listen to and compare these two clips:
http://www.sawf.org/audio/tt/roshanara_marubihag.ram
http://www.sawf.org/audio/tt/rajabali_hemkalyan.ram
You tell me, where do the two resemble each other in terms of taan
patterns? And after listening to the second clip, can you in all
honest deny its resemblance to Atrauli-Jaipur?
OK, you may dismiss these recordings. Too short, and recorded when he
was in his dotage. Take Nivruttibuwa Sarnaik, then. Do you find
anything at all in his taans that resemble Kirana?
> Yes, Rajab Ali vs. Alladiya Khan anecdotes are widely popular. But tell me, is Vilayat Khan's style similar to Ravishankar's? In their time, this old duo was related to each other somewhat in a similar fashion, Rajab Ali playing the Vilayat Khan part.
In other words:
1. The rivalry between RAK and AK was intense, as was the RS-VK one.
Agreed. Everyone knows this.
2. RS and VK were not stylistically similar. Once again agreed,
everyone knows this.
3. Despite their stylistic dissimilarities, RS and VK sustained their
rivalry. Once again agreed.
But what conclusion are you trying to draw from this? Just because RS
and VK followed different styles, so must have the older pair? Or that
dissimilarity is necessary for rivalry?
Personally, I cannot draw any conclusion from this. That is because
one pair's dissimilarity cannot possibly have any bearing on the
stylistic similarity of the other pair. I get the feeling you're
arguing for argument's sake. Else you wouldn't have invoked RS-VK.
> But Jaipur style taan-pradhan? I don't remember anybody else saying that.
And then:
> MM clearely refutes this qualifier taan-pradhan and says that it's an illusion
Whether the gaiki is really taan pradhan or not might be a subjective
question. But that's not what bothers me here.
I find it strange that MM would bother to "clearly refute" something
nobody had ever said in the first place! Foot-in-the-mouth disease on
your part?
> The history of music you are talking about is anecdote-based. The one I am talking about is based on formal analysis instead.
I suggest you don't make that claim. At best, it is "formal analysis"
based on an absurdly small sample set (namely SAWF clips). I'd say
it's more risky than relying on secondary sources and hearsay. At
least there you know your data is not reliable. Here the fact that
you're using primary data can make you complacent and indifferent to
the inadequacy of the data before you.
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
> > What I know is, I can locate the exact phraseology in MM's rendering, irrespective of pitch, tempo etc.
>
> Which would not prove much, only that the singer was influenced by
> Atrauli-Jaipur. From that to Bhurji Khan is a long step.
>
> Secondly, the recording was clearly not speeded up too much, if at
> all. The voice sounds clearly post-pubescent male. If this is his
> voice pitch _after_ speeding up, the original must be closer to Paul
> Robeson than anybody from Jaipur.
>
> > saral, saral avrohi taan is a feature for all Rajab Ali clips I've heard now,
>
> This goes against all that anybody's said about his gaiki. Let me
> expand on it
>
> > This latter part, Roshan Ara Begum herself attributed to Rajab Ali and Amanat (his nephew). What can I say? I remember Dr. Prabha Atre in a recent (2006) seminar/workshop in Santiniketan told the same thing.
>
> As in Rajab Ali's taans were regularly patterned, and Roshanara Begum
> incorporated them into her gaiki and gave credit to Rajab Ali? And
> Prabha Atre said so?
>
> Pandit Amarnath says roughly the opposite. And these are indeed his
> own words, not my distant recollection of an unpublished (and so
> practically unverifiable) lecture.
>
> http://ragavani.org/AR_AmirKhanGayaki_071119.aspx
>
> In any case, just listen to and compare these two clips:
>
My point was inadequacy of data leads to all kinds of confusion. Rajab
Ali, we have total recording less than an hour. Roshan Ara Begum, a
li'l over 3 hours (and the chronology is not clear), Bhurji Khan (or
so claimed so far) is 1.30 minutes and Alladiya Khan 0 minutes so far.
And my point was, similarity or lack of it in style, formal elements
etc., doesn't indicate the Gharana at all. (However, the bandeesh and
the treatment of Raga does). There are too many examples of that. And
when I said 'no one' in the context of Jaipur-Atrauli's being taan-
pradhaan or not, I meant here, on this forum, or in this thread. And
therefore my point was, none of the above resons to be suspicious
about the clip, give us any sufficient evidence towards discarding the
clip as non-Jaipur (stylistic issue), non-fitting-in-the-timeline
(technological issue), or non-Bhurji Khan ( which I believe purely an
issue of believing it or not).
You may or may not accept it as Bhurji Khan Deshkar, but that's
subjective acceptance. That doesn't give anybody any right to abuse
others or question their basic musical knowledge. Probably I'd go on
more, and share some more info with you guys, but no, I must stop
here.
I must.
Partha
Abhay
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> My point was inadequacy of data leads to all kinds of confusion. Rajab
> Ali, we have total recording less than an hour. Roshan Ara Begum, a
> li'l over 3 hours (and the chronology is not clear),
Are you asserting that "a li'l over 3 hours" is all that is available
of Roshanara Begum's recorded music? I have well over 6 hours of
recorded music by her, and my collection is by no means complete (I
don't, for instance, have the 78 rpm recordings re-released by HMV,
and I have only one of her LPs - the one with Shankara and Kedar). And
the chronology *is* fairly clear for at least 3 sets of recordings -
the 78 rpm recordings, then the LP releases, and then the "Gharano.n
Ki Gayaki" releases.
> Bhurji Khan (or
> so claimed so far) is 1.30 minutes and Alladiya Khan 0 minutes so far.
> And my point was, similarity or lack of it in style, formal elements
> etc., doesn't indicate the Gharana at all. (However, the bandeesh and
> the treatment of Raga does). There are too many examples of that. And
Would you mind defining "style" and "formal elements" a little more
precisely, given that you seem to exclude choice of bandish and
treatment of the raga from these labels?
> when I said 'no one' in the context of Jaipur-Atrauli's being taan-
> pradhaan or not, I meant here, on this forum, or in this thread. And
> therefore my point was, none of the above resons to be suspicious
> about the clip, give us any sufficient evidence towards discarding the
> clip as non-Jaipur (stylistic issue), non-fitting-in-the-timeline
> (technological issue), or non-Bhurji Khan ( which I believe purely an
> issue of believing it or not).
It may be enough for you to "believe" that it is x or y; others might
want substantiating evidence.
>
> You may or may not accept it as Bhurji Khan Deshkar, but that's
> subjective acceptance. That doesn't give anybody any right to abuse
> others or question their basic musical knowledge. Probably I'd go on
Abuse is not acceptable in any context; questioning musical knowledge
may be, depending on the context.
Warm regards,
Abhay
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 9:43 am, Abhik Majumdar <abhik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > There isn't much harm in an ass like Doogar appreciating stupid posts, either.
>
> > Aren't you taking him a bit too literally here? I think he also blew
> > an artery when he saw that 'Geeta Dutt' guess.
>
> > > The problem with this Jitmanyu (could not recall thatog name at all myself) and Partha duo is that they make tons of stupid posts
>
> > I confess I've also wondered about this. Would really like to know who
> > they are (or indeed, if they are two different people).
>
> > What's your take on the putative Bhurji Khan clip?
>
> > Abhik
>
> Well I dunno what Jit wrote exactly, don't have time to find old
> posts, but I'd stand by the theory that dominant not in Gurjari is Re
> not Ga. Those who implant Todi's typical moves in Gurjari (Todi),
> actually kills the Raga.
How so?
> Same is true for Desi Todi, which is
> invariably more Desi than Todi. If you make the Nyas on Ga there
> instead of moving on to re-ga-sa-re-ni-sa, there is no Desi at all.
For clarification, please identify the portion of Desi (Todi) that
*is* Todi.
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:18 am, "dn.usenet" <dn.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > <c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> > > my ignorance!! :)
>
> > Learn to use internet and you will find some information
> > about Nachiketa Sharma. Samples of his singing are also
> > available online.
>
> > As for pardoning your ignorance, you don't display
> > ordinary ignorance but you are foolishness and
> > ignorance personified.
>
> I did, and I heard his clips fromhttp://www.ganapriya.com/cd01/cd01-index.html.
> Can't say liked them very much. He is basically off-tune. His steady
> notes are never steady. In Charukeshi clip he begins the cheez from
> high SA, but the voice never reached there.Many SRA students are here
> who sing better than this hyped kid,
Excuse me, but a mere mention on RMIC amounts to *hype*?
> who supposedly amalgamates
> (Source:http://cdbaby.com/cd/nachiketa2) two diametrically opposite
> styles of Kirana and Gwalior (which precisely means he imbibed
> neither).
So I guess that by extension that would mean that Basavraj Rajguru
went after *three* gharanas and got none - even worse, huh?
Sanjeev
c.parth...@gmail.com
3 hours? Sorry, I have mistyped that. 6 was my intention, but on the
numeric keypad i have hit 3 instead. And I didn't include the
Akashvani release, since I don't have that cassette.
Definitions you demanded:
1. Formal elements: as listed in all old treatise Meend, Gamak,
Krintan, Chhut, Pookar, Saral, Koot etc.
2. Style: The architecture of a rendition, which comes primarily and
essentially from the aesthetic sense of the artiste, like which
element to use, where, for how long, what should be the laya (tempo)
overall, and how to distribute the tempo variations etc. MM's style
consists of andolan as one element, in Deshkar it comes as G-P or D-S
andolan, in Bibhas or in a rare version of Lalita-Gouri (comprising of
Bhairav mel Gouri) it comes as S-r or P-d andolan. Amir Khan's style
consists of patterned avrohi taan in series along with Meerkhand
(Merukhand). Abdul Waheed Khan's dRRsnS is a distinct identifier of
his Durbari, and his followers including my Guruji, and therefore mine
too. Now can we apply the same on Shudh Kalyan, yes we can -- in DRRS
form, but on Marwa? no we can't. However in Marwa we can take this
pattern translated in mNNDmD. And so on.
3. Treatment of Raga, that comes from the philosophy or sentiment of
the Raga learnt from Guru. Like Shudh Kalyan has to be Meend Pradhan,
and so the artistes who are not into meend (long rolling) usually
avoid that stuff. Same is true for instruments like Santoor or
Jaltarang, meend is not possible there. Shree, has to be a male Raga,
therefore straight notes are desirable rather than subtle mudki
ornamentation. So the artiste whose style is mudki dependent should
better avoid Shree. Again Yaman's chal is as Hafiz Ali Khan Sahab used
to say "ek kadam aage to paanch kadam peechhe", therefore you have to
be prepared for Kalyan's P-R translated onto the whole octave. Gurjari
lays emphasis on r and unlike Todi, not on g. So the phraseology is
more or less like Marwa having Dhaivat and Rishabh komal.
4. Choice of bandish is obvious. Since my repertoire of cheez is
limited to some Kirana, and some Gwalior only, I can't sing more than
that. So someone singing a typical Agra bandish is easily
distinguishable here even before he starts Agra style Bol-banawat.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is none, that was my point. Only some far-fetched similarity can
be drawn in the usage of (ati)-komal Gandhar, that's all. Also
Bilaskhani Todi, Bhairavi Mel. Though Todi ang is present in S-rg, but
is immediately counterbalanced by introducing the M or jumping to
Mandra d. My point was, having Todi in the name doesn't make Gurjari a
Todi.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I won't comment. Since my honest comment won't sound nice. However,
Nachiketa, that much I have heard (got the CD) is nowhere near his
Guru's aesthetic sense. He has a long way to go.
Partha.
Abhay
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Definitions you demanded:
"requested" might be more appropriate, but thank you for responding.
>
> 1. Formal elements: as listed in all old treatise Meend, Gamak,
> Krintan, Chhut, Pookar, Saral, Koot etc.
And it is your case, seriously, that the frequency and manner of usage
of these elements are *not* indicative of the gharana of the artiste?
Your second and third point below, which you present as distinct
features, are closely interrelated: the third is, in a sense, the
precursor of the second. Admittedly, the second is often made up of
influences wider than the third but - in all but a very few exceptions
- the influences of the latter are clearly visible.
Your extended explanations below only strengthen the sense I had from
your earlier post that you are indulging in sophistry when trying to
counter the relevant and reasonable points made by Abhik.
Warm regards,
Abhay
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
3 is a precursor of 2? No, I believe the listed order is more
appropriate. For 2 is governed not only by tAleem, but also by the
inherent physical ability of the voice, e.g. Punjabi people have often
more supple voice than anybody else and that tells on everything else.
Everybody choses his/her style according to the ability first, and
then comes treatment, philosophy etc. Riyaaz can change the scenario a
little but not much. However long riyaaz I might have done, I am not
going to get Bhimsen-ji's lungs, therefore my style can't include
those ultra-long taan, whatever the ragadhyan demands.
And sophistry. Well, if you think the use of that word is not a
catachresis on your part, what can I do? I can just stop responding to
you as well.
Partha
Havanur
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I won't comment. Since my honest comment won't sound nice. However,
> Nachiketa, that much I have heard (got the CD) is nowhere near his
> Guru's aesthetic sense. He has a long way to go.
>
> Partha.
It is your prerogative to criticise somebdoy's music, even if does not
sound nice. But I find your remark "Many SRA students are here
who sing better than this hyped kid, who supposedly amalgamates two
diametrically opposite styles of Kirana and Gwalior ... which
precisely means he imbibed neither." rather offensive. I will not even
ask you to justify why Kirana and Gwalior should be considered
diametrically opposite. By your own logic, nobody at ITCSRA has the
faintest chance of imbibing anything, given the current amalgam of its
gurus. Forget the disciples, I would rather listen to Nachiketa Sharma
than some of the ITCSRA gurus. Second he was quoted for his knowledge
of musical theory, which you have no way of judging, but still did
after spending just a few minutes on his website.
As an aside, Basavaraj Rajguru's case is far, far worse than what
Sanjeeev mentioned. He proudly claimed to have learnt from eleven
gurus in his life.
Havanur
c.parth...@gmail.com
I won't ask why your ears for music are so weird.
I will also not ask which Guru you are talking about, though in some
cases I may even agree to that.
But I have serious reason to doubt the "musical knowledge" of someone
who thinks Gurjari is just another Todi.
I have explained that in detail already, and I believe Jit also wrote
something on it.
Yet another aside: that's why I refrained from commenting on BRR.
Partha
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
And this is precisely my point - your earlier note said "Same is true
for Desi Todi, which is invariably more Desi than Todi." Not
completely, but invariably more, implying a non-zero Todi element in
Desi. In any case, I agree that there isn't any Todi in Desi, but that
in itself is not support for your claim that there is no Todi in
Gurjari. You said that you have written on this detail, but I missed
that post. Can you point us to your (and Jit's) posts that clearly
explain why Gurjari is not a Todi?
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Nachiketa, that much I have heard (got the CD) is nowhere near his
> Guru's aesthetic sense. He has a long way to go.
It would have been one thing had Nachiketa come on this forum and
proclaimed himself the next classical music superstar. He has done no
such thing. Nobody said Nachiketa is equal to his guru, least of all
Nachiketa who got dragged into this discussion without even showing up
here. You went ahead and made that leap. You may be an aspiring singer
looking to promote yourself and your alma mater, which is fine, but
not at others' expense.
Sanjeev
dn.usenet
"Havanur" <anamadheya at gmail.com> wrote :
>
> two diametrically opposite styles of Kirana and Gwalior ... which
> precisely means he imbibed neither." rather offensive.
>
Partha's comments on Nachiketa Sharma are not offensive, they
are just plain stupid.
> Forget the disciples, I would rather listen to Nachiketa Sharma
> than some of the ITCSRA gurus. Second he was quoted for
> his knowledge of musical theory, which you have no way
> of judging, but still did
> after spending just a few minutes on his website.
>
Such distinctions are lost on the ass (Partha) and any attempt
to have a discussion with him provides him with grounds for
making yet more idiotic comments.
Rajan has treated Todi and Gurjari Todi together in his SAWF
article, Ramrang has bunched them together while discussing
Todi Raagaang, Sanjeev has talked about the difference and
similarity between them in the past. But Jit and Partha have
gone on and on about their stupid theories.
c.parth...@gmail.com
Why was he dragged? That's unfortunate indeed. I think you should read
earlier posts. Some idiot on this forum dragged his name as a
sacrosanct reference, since his own knowledge doesn't go beyond the
fact that some people put a Todi in Gurjari's name. And that too, out
of the context -- finding a way to abuse me. So I had to challenge the
authenticity of such reference. By the way, I am not an aspiring
singer. Had I been one, I'm afraid I would have been seen on the
roads, or even here, buttering every cat and dog for getting one
programme or one foreign concert. Personally I hate to sell music. I
have removed myself from the professional circuit long ago, 12 years
now.
About Gurjari -- give me some time to find the old posts. If I can't,
I'll write here in detail again.
Partha
dn.usenet
<c.parth...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> earlier posts. Some idiot on this forum dragged his name as a
>
Nonsense. I quoted Nachi as saying : 'I use gandhar and
dhaivat equally, one of them (take your pick) being the
dominant note'. Far from being sacrosanct, he is properly
'vague' about an issue on which he doesn't see any need
to have a strong opinion. It's an indicator of his proper
approach to questions about music theory.
>
> And that too, out of the context -- finding a way to
> abuse me.
>
It wasn't out of context. It was an example of how you
have spouted nonsense on this forum. And you do ask
to be abused and totally deserve a kick on your ass.
c.parth...@gmail.com
> <c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote :
Hey ain't you the same mad dog? Barking again? I told you to keep
shut, so that we can think you are wise. :)
Abhik Majumdar
One second, now. RMIC is an unmoderated forum. Which means NOBODY has
the right to tell someone to keep shut. Not Nani, not you either. I
hope I make myself clear on this point.
You have said earlier:
> You may or may not accept it as Bhurji Khan Deshkar, but that's subjective acceptance. That doesn't give anybody any right to abuse others or question their basic musical knowledge.
And then -
> Some idiot on this forum dragged his name as a sacrosanct reference, since his own knowledge doesn't go beyond the fact that some people put a Todi in Gurjari's name.
Uhh, abuse, questioning others' 'basic musical knowledge', they're all
there but surprise! these are not Nani's words.
Nani is known for his vituperative arrogance, almost all regulars at
RMIC agree with you. However, he does have a habit of generally
knowing what he talks about. Especially in his writings on the history
of classical and film music.
You, on the other hand, have made in close succession two astounding
claims:
a) Rajab Ali Khan's taans were simple, regular, and akin to the Kirana
pattern (as exemplified by Roshan Ara Begum)
b) Gujari Todi is not a Todi at all
Both claims run contrary to all that we have learnt, but manifestly
that's not a flaw in itself. What is worrisome is that you have not
adduced a shred cogent reasoning in support of your contentions,
especially the second. Indeed, your disinclination to logically
substantiate your contentions smacks of poseurism.
> My point was inadequacy of data leads to all kinds of confusion. Rajab Ali, we have total recording less than an hour. Roshan Ara Begum, a li'l over 3 hours (and the chronology is not clear), Bhurji Khan (or
so claimed so far) is 1.30 minutes and Alladiya Khan 0 minutes so far.
Tell me, do you honestly need more that ten minutes of Rajab Ali to
see his taans are not simple, not regular, not convoluted, and in
short, nowhere near Roshanara's?
Secondly, when primary data is inadequate, one needs to take recourse
to secondary data, and apply this with rigorous logical integrity.
Concluding from Roshanara's taans that the clip is nowhere near Rajab
Ali's style need not necessarily be per se absurd. But it can be
sustained only if you produce clinching, cast-iron evidence that
Roshanara's and Rajab Ali's taans corresponded to identical patterns.
So far, Amarnath's writings as well as the clips on SAWF indicate the
patterns were not even similar, let alone identical. Indeed, they were
intended to be diametrically opposite in their ethos.
Lastly:
> You may or may not accept it as Bhurji Khan Deshkar, but that's subjective acceptance.
I think this is where the problem lies. You seem to believe I have
concluded that the clip is not BK's. I have done nothing of the sort.
All I have said is:
a) Indeed the clip sounds strongly Atrauli-Jaipur
b) At the same time, it bears dissimilarities (such as fast tempo)
with BK's gaiki as found in MM's singing
c) Other singers, including RAK and his musical progeny, bore some
stylistic similarities with the Atrauli-Jaipur gaiki, but sang much
faster taans
and so chances are that
i) this is not BJ
ii) this _could be_ someone from the RAK end of things
iii) but the foregoing is only a hunch, and of course open to debate,
and so I keep an open mind on the issue.
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
Yes I abused the abuser. That's what I do, treating everybody with his
own medicine. And for sure you will not get the rough edge unless and
until you behave that way.
Now the musical topics.
1. Can we leave Gurjari for another thread? We can open a new
dedicated thread to discuss Gurjari and other Todi variants there.
2. I dunno why can't you see the liearity or regular pattern in RAK's
taans. Is that sophistry on your part? However, "saral avrohi" taans
are all what I hear from all those RAK clips we have been talking
about.
Usually Kirana taankari is complex in nature, be it Abdul Karim's or
Amir Khan's. But RAK was particularly inclined to superfast taans
(anecdotal history, no raw evidence) and was much ahead of his time in
that matter. Musicians of last century or before didn't really do
superfast taans in public performances (they practised it in riyaaz,
as part of their riyaaz only) as our contemporaries do now. Stormy
taans, or showing off taiyaari is a typical feature of the later half
of 20th century, after the advent of limited time performances in the
AIR model or LP model. Amir Khan Sahab at his mature age never
subscribed to that, and we are told that his philosophy was that
everything has its own course of development, own rhythm, own
'poetry'. So if the time was limited, he wouldn't change the format or
architecture to fit in the timeline, and in most cases fast taans
never fitted in the timeline except when he took up from a rather fast
tempo from the very beginning, as in Malkauns or Hansadhwani (pre-
recorded). But RAK didn't have this constraint, and the usual
arrogance characteristic of his nature, prompted him to speed up more
and more. We are unable to listen to an sample of that, for all the
recordings we have now come from his old age only. In Hemkalyan even
the gamaks are not quite clear. Unthinkable by RAK's standard.
Now every musician knows that if you have to slow down abnormally, or
speed up abnormally, you have to take recourse to some basic over-
simplifications. Abdul Waheed's behlawa, or RAK's taan, both share
this common problem of over-simplication. In fact, people from other
gharana levelled charges against Kirana people by saying that 'they do
on stage what is supposed to be done in practice sessions'. Riyaaz
kyun soonaate ho bhai? [Bade Ghulam Ali] Ultra-slow alap (which is not
Dhrupad at the same time), setting the whole thing to 56-beat Jhoomra,
or 48-beat Ektaal, and superfast taankari are both features that
traditionalists of Gwalior and Agra despised. But there's no denying
that RAK continued with his style and simplified patterned taans were
inevitable, which was sometimes even at the cost of raagdari. If
somebody renders a superfast taan in Shankara, it will be hardly any
different from Bihag, and even Bilawal. To avoid this homicide, one
has to invent patters, group the notes in an octave so that damage is
minimized, and there comes pattern. This is the common feature in all
Kirana people, be his name RAK, RAB, or BJ. It took an Amir Khan to
break the regular pattern and introduce asymmetric pattern based on
Merukhand principle (but yet another pattern). Alladiya Khan Sahab did
the same thing in a different way and much before Amir Khan, that's
his primary contribution to HCM apart from creating Ragas and
compositions. Dissimilarity between Alladiya Khan and Rajab Ali Khan
is not only the tempo, but the patterns also. In fact, Jaipur-Atrauli
succeded to conceal the pattern, for they do it in short spans and
every single "sam" on Tabla is shown by the vocalist, thus apparently
breaking the pattern with the Tabla cycle.
By the way, save your last post, when did you affirm that the clip
resembles strongly to Jaipur-Atrauli style? :)
Partha
Abhay
Interesting. Read your earlier post and tell me where, in your
explication of point 2, there is even a passing reference to the
physical capability of the artiste as a component of "style" as you
define it.
Also, care to substantiate that bit about "Punjabi people [having]
often more supple voice than anyone else"? Or is that something else
one just has to "believe"?
> And sophistry. Well, if you think the use of that word is not a
> catachresis on your part, what can I do? I can just stop responding to
> you as well.
My use of the word "sophistry" was well considered - IMO, your
response to Abhik's post (and your explication of it in response to
mine) warranted it, and this post of yours strengthens the case.
Whether or not to respond to me further is, of course, your choice.
Warm regards,
Abhay
Abhay
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Kirana people, be his name RAK, RAB, or BJ. It took an Amir Khan to
> break the regular pattern and introduce asymmetric pattern based on
> Merukhand principle (but yet another pattern). Alladiya Khan Sahab did
Is the "Merukhand" principle asymmetric? I thought it referred to
mathematical patterns of notes and *was* symmetric. A net search led
to an excellent article by Ramesh Gangolli which does not suggest that
Merukhand/Khandameru patterns are asymmetric. Can anyone shed more
light on this?
Warm regards,
Abhay
c.parth...@gmail.com
Architecture depends on material. A mud house can't have the same
architecture as a concrete one. This is so obvious that it needs no
explanation no reference no augmentation. If there is any sophistry on
this thread, then you are responsible for that, you are trying to make
the obvious thing an obscure object. Regarding the Punjabi peoples'
suppleness of voice, it would be enough to refer to Punjabi folk
songs, tappa etc. For that matter Rajasthan also shares this feature
to some extent. Tappa and the typical phrases of Patiala harkat
wouldn't have been possible if the suppleness was not there. Remember,
that style has developed nowhere in India apart from Punjab. Well,
actually my Punjabi friend Vikram Singh Khangura, another young
vocalist, is very proud of this suppleness of voice. He would expand
the list of examples to include Ghulam Ali (Ghazal), Nusrat Fateh Ali,
Fateh Ali Khan, Salamat-Nazakat and so on. :)
Regarding meerkhand asymmetry, I suggest you do an exercise. Take an
Amir Khan taan, open it in Audition 1.5 or Sourceforge, slow down and
try to identify. The way I have learnt to compose taans, say GRS,
mGRS, PmGR, DPmGR, SNDP, GRSNDPmGRG, P--- , R --- this can be a
typical Amir Khan like taan structure in Yaman. Tell me where do you
see the symmetry in it.
Partha.
Abhik Majumdar
Thanks for the timely warning, will certainly try and tone down my
language for fear of catching your medicine/rough edge. Please believe
me when I say I'm scared.
> 2. I dunno why can't you see the liearity or regular pattern in RAK's taans.
Perhaps because there is none beyond three-four (rarely five)
successive notes.
> Is that sophistry on your part?
You sound like you've just learned this word and not very sure what it
means. Accuse me of being deliberately dense if you like, that's
plausible. But the charge of sophistry just doesn't fit in the
context.
> Usually Kirana taankari is complex in nature
And earliler:
> Rajab Ali represents Kirana tankaari which is linear and regularly patterned, unlike Jaipur's intricate
style.
Ergo, Kirana taankari is linear, regularly patterned, yet complex but
without being intricate.
> be it Abdul Karim's or Amir Khan's.
The main difference between Amir Khan's gaiki and the Kirana style
(particularly Wahid Khan's) lies precisely in taan patterns. I fail to
see on what basis you club them together.
> Musicians of last century or before didn't really do superfast taans in public performances
A generalisation so sweeping it makes my hair stand on end. And
factually incorrect besides. Agreed, _some_ musicians disapproved of
fast taankari.
Exceptions include Rahimat Khan (in 1919, just a year before his
death):
http://users.sarai.net/ish/muzik/hassu/Yaman.mp3
Abdul Karim Khan (c) 1905:
http://homepage.mac.com/patrickmoutal/macmoutal/mp3/vocal/abdulkarim_Miya%20Malhar%20(1905).mp3
And Alia Fattu of Patiyala, as recollected with a lot of contempt by
Faiyaz Khan:
http://www.sawf.org/audio/tt/fhk_interview1.ram @ 2.40 and then again
@ 8.42 in a slightly different context
Before you point this out, yes, Faiyaz Khan does disapprove of this.
But my intention was just to demonstrate that fast taans were very
much sung prior to the latter half of the 20th century.
> Stormy taans, or showing off taiyaari is a typical feature of the later half of 20th century, after the advent of limited time performances in the AIR model or LP model.
Ouch! I do wish you'd substantiate your sweeping claims now and then.
> Amir Khan Sahab at his mature age never subscribed to that
You're taking his words out of context. He was strongly against empty
showmanship, and so always related his taans to the tempo he was
singing in.
> in most cases fast taans never fitted in the timeline except when he took up from a rather fast tempo from the very beginning
Applies only to bada khayals. Now and then he did sing chhota khayals
and taranas, you know, and they tend to be pretty fast. Pretty fast
taans Amir Khan sang there too.
> Now every musician knows that if you have to slow down abnormally
<snip>
Enormously complicated passage, not sure if I got your point (not sure
if you have a point either).
> But there's no denying that RAK continued with his style and simplified patterned taans were inevitable
OK, so the Kirana taans were complicated, but because Rajab Ali sang
fast taans he simplified them.
The problem is, it flies in the face of everything that we know of
Rajab Ali.
> By the way, save your last post, when did you affirm that the clip resembles strongly to Jaipur-Atrauli style? :)
Contrary to what you claim, Rajab Ali's style did resemble Alladiya
Khan's. (Once again, please please read Deodhar on this). So if I say
the clip could be by Rajab Ali or his students, it necessarily means I
think it's styled on the lines of Jaipur.
Abhik
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> And Alia Fattu of Patiyala, as recollected with a lot of contempt by
> Faiyaz Khan:
>
Sophistry is what is going on here in the name of musical disussion.
It's not a new word for me, nor is this the first time I am here to
encounter sophistry. [As an aside: I published a small book of poems
titled Sophistry back in 1999].
Deodhar is on my table right now. Deodhar-sahab was long lost in my
stacks, and yesterday when you referred to him, I found the book
again.
Let me quote a passage:
"Khansaheb's concert tours used to cover several cities and he would
earn a sizeable sum of rupees seven to eight thousand, before
returning to Dewas. Because of his prodigal ways it was not long
before this fortune was spent on his own extravagances and hospitality
to intimate friends. Then the borrowings from money-lenders, grocers,
other shopkeepers and confectioners would start. The shopkeepers,
knowing their customer only too well, would decline to supply goods on
credit when the borrowings had crossed reasonable limits...On one
occasion, the money-lenders, grocers, lothiers all stopped credit but
the confectioner continued to provide stuff on credit. One day a
relation of Khansaheb, who lived in a distant village, came on
horseback to
visit Khansaheb. Khansaheb extended a cordial welcome to him and
ostentatiously told him to go to a confectioner and get five or ten
seers of jalebi. The guest protested that his horse ate grass and not
jalebi. Khansaheb replied, "You happen to be the guest of a great
artiste. Your horse, while he is under my roof, must eat jalebi." The
horse was indeed fed on jalebis. Khansaheb did not have any cash even
to buy fodder for the horse but since the confectioner had still not
cut off
credit, jalebi was still obtainable"
Intimate, funny, no doubt. But is this how you assess a musician? I
refuse to accept the whole approach to his kind of history. Whatever
he said, credibility is zero to me.
On the contrary of what you say, anecdote also has it that Alladiya
himself said that though in popular belief there are similarities
between their styles, there is no truth in it. Rajab Ali is
stylistically different, totally.
Effect of Akashvani and recorded music requires yet another thread.
I'll do that, soon.
Partha
Abhay
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
>
> Architecture depends on material. A mud house can't have the same
> architecture as a concrete one. This is so obvious that it needs no
> explanation no reference no augmentation. If there is any sophistry on
> this thread, then you are responsible for that, you are trying to make
> the obvious thing an obscure object.
I'll try once more - just this once. That artistes have to work within
- and try to augment - the physical resources they have at their
disposal is so obvious it doesn't need saying. Beyond the fact that
some voices are not suited for the gayaki of some gharana-s (and that
a *very* few artists adapt the gayaki of their gharana to suit their
physical attributes), I don't see why it is even relevant here. This
is, however, just *one* component of what you call 'style'. What is
built on that foundation is what the artiste learns from his/her guru
and then from other influences (s)he chooses to adopt. (Remember that
a good guru can teach the disciple how best to use - and, if required,
how to augment - the resources (s)he comes with.) It is this structure
that is relevant when looking at whether one can identify the gharana
based on the similarity/dissimilarity in style and "formal elements".
To be more specific, whether one takes super-fast taans or not is not
simply a question of how powerful one's lungs are and how supple one's
voice is - it is a conscious artistic choice that is influenced by the
gayaki one learns and adopts. Those who "do because they can" are best
left out of any serious discussion on music.
> Regarding the Punjabi peoples'
> suppleness of voice, it would be enough to refer to Punjabi folk
> songs, tappa etc. For that matter Rajasthan also shares this feature
> to some extent. Tappa and the typical phrases of Patiala harkat
> wouldn't have been possible if the suppleness was not there. Remember,
> that style has developed nowhere in India apart from Punjab. Well,
hmmm...I wish this had been known to the host of non-Punjabi singers
who sing the Tappa - they may have refrained from trying to sing it
with their (by your definition) "non-supple" voices! I wonder if you
know how many non-Punjabis sing the Tappa - and sing it well. If you
did, you may have been a little less ambitious in your
generalisations.
[Irrelevant stuff about your Punjabi friend deleted]
> Regarding meerkhand asymmetry, I suggest you do an exercise. Take an
> Amir Khan taan, open it in Audition 1.5 or Sourceforge, slow down and
> try to identify. The way I have learnt to compose taans, say GRS,
> mGRS, PmGR, DPmGR, SNDP, GRSNDPmGRG, P--- , R --- this can be a
> typical Amir Khan like taan structure in Yaman. Tell me where do you
> see the symmetry in it.
You may well be right, but I shall wait to hear from someone whose
musical knowledge and judgement I can trust. Based on what I have read
of your postings thus far, you don't quite fit that bill.
Warm regards,
Abhay
Abhik Majumdar
Oh, so just because he recounts an anecdote, his credibility as a
scholar of music automatically stands discredited?
He's not making an assessment, just stating what he believes are
facts. You yourself called Rajab Ali arrogant. Now when someone
recounts an example, you take umbrage, and refuse to believe him even
when he's talking seriously about music.
How convenient, no?
Tell me, even if you completely discredit Deodhar as a historian, did
he say something about AK and RAK having similar styles? Did he also
say something about RAK also not disagreeing with him? I know you
utterly don't believe in his kind of history and all that, but still,
as a matter of curiosity . . . ?
> On the contrary of what you say, anecdote also has it that Alladiya himself said that though in popular belief there are similarities between their styles, there is no truth in it.
Thank you, you just proved my point.
First, of course Alladiya would deny it! If you are a gharanedar
musician, imperious in temperament, and find that someone equally
imperious but from a mirashi family sings in your style but refuses to
acknowledge you as his superior, would you admit his music is similar
to yours?
Secondly, the very fact that Alladiya was provoked to comment means
that there lay some resemblance between their styles.
Abhik
djame...@gmail.com
>
> And Alia Fattu of Patiyala, as recollected with a lot of contempt by
> Faiyaz Khan:
>
Abhik, Did Rajabali khan have students or followers capable of
singing this piece? james
Abhay
<c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Intimate, funny, no doubt. But is this how you assess a musician? I
> refuse to accept the whole approach to his kind of history. Whatever
> he said, credibility is zero to me.
Thank you for this post. That you can rubbish Deodhar's entire body of
writings because he recounts the occasional "non-musical" anecdote is
instructive. I now know better than to waste time on any discussion
with you.
Btw, it is also that you chose to quote and highlight this anecdote
rather than any of the host of things that Deodhar has to say that
*are* very relevant to music.
Go in peace!
Warm regards,
Abhay
djame...@gmail.com
>
> And Alia Fattu of Patiyala, as recollected with a lot of contempt by
> Faiyaz Khan:
>
Out of curiosity I wouldn't mind sending the clip to shruti to ask her
opinion, but I do not have her email address. If someone could provide
that i would be grateful. James
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> Abhik, Did Rajabali khan have students or followers capable of
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry to intrude James, but rest assured, even if there wasn't any
such disciple, these RMIC-ians would invent one very soon.
If there was any serious student of him who later stood out as a
musician, he was Amir Khan. But there are people who believe that's
Jaipur-Atrauli element in his music. I have no idea where was this
name Jaipur-Atrauli Gharana, when Amir Khan was a young student.
I don't have Shruti-ji's email. But she is now teaching at ITCSRA. So
I guess youcan contact itcsra.org for forwarding your mail to her. Or
may they can give you the ID.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
What you don't see in the series of intimate, funny etc. is another
adjective denigrative. It's like talking about the loafer boy right
down there round the corner. I am not ready to accept that when
talking about music or musician.
Rest of what you wrote this time is useless blabbering. So I better
not answer them.
Partha
c.parth...@gmail.com
I didn't rubbish his entire body of literature, but history of the
music of RAK, they way he presented is useless.
c.parth...@gmail.com
Abhay, in the realm of Bangla music there is a tappa thing that has
also percolated in Tagore's song, but that's abnormally slow, almost
like gamak, or even andolan. Tappa has nothing to do with it. And
honestly, I have never heard anybody who is not a Punjab descendant
singing close-to-original tappa successfully. Let me know if you have
found one.
Thanks
c.parth...@gmail.com
"To be more specific, whether one takes super-fast taans or not is
not
simply a question of how powerful one's lungs are and how supple
one's
voice is - it is a conscious artistic choice that is influenced by
the
gayaki one learns and adopts. Those who "do because they can" are
best
left out of any serious discussion on music. "
I guess you would never believe that Bhimsen Joshi, Gangubai Hangal,
and Firoz Dastur were disciples of the same guru -- that is Sawai
Gandharv.
Partha
Abhik Majumdar
Useless to you, maybe.
The snippet you quoted had no link with RAK's music - it was about his
personality. Every individual has some weaknesses in his character.
Should they not be written about merely because a great musician is
being discussed here?
And how at all does this little anecdote bear on what RAK had told BRD
on his musical influences?
> Sorry to intrude James, but rest assured, even if there wasn't any such disciple, these RMIC-ians would invent one very soon.
You get funnier by the minute, you know.
Abhik
Abhik Majumdar
Tch tch tch.
c.parth...@gmail.com
> > Rest of what you wrote this time is useless blabbering. So I better not answer them.
>
> Tch tch tch.
:) More fun is waiting. Let's move on.
Partha
Abhik Majumdar
> :) More fun is waiting. Let's move on.
Speak for yourself. I'm content to stay just where I am
Warren
WRT the Alladiya/Rajab Ali question:
First off, of course, we have a yawning gap in the total absence of
Alladiya
Khan's recordings, and a further problem in the advanced age
represented
in Rajab Ali's recordings.
But I would comment that it is not only the specific musical and
conceptual
ingredients represented in a singer's training that mark his/her
gayaki; it is
also the singer's individual personality, and in this case we can use
the
anecdotal evidence (as in Deodhar's article and other sources) to
observe
that Alladiya Khan and Rajab Ali Khan were as different,
temperamentally,
as chalk and cheese.
All the anecdotal evidence suggests that Alladiya's khyal presentation
was dignified, methodical, and intellectually integrated (in the sense
of having a
logical progression of ideas with no steps left out)...and that his
personality,
likewise, was austere, severe and dignified -- Apollonian. And,
contrariwise, Rajab Ali's
personality (as recounted by Deodhar et al) was that of a classic
eccentric;
an artist of consummate genius, completely in the thrall of momentary
impulses --
Dionysian, if you will. It may be imaginative projection, but I seem
to hear
this in his singing as well; there is a kind of hell-for-leather
exuberance that
overwhelms questions of structure or patterning protocol with the
output of
an exuberant imagination.
When I listen to singers and try to trace the growth of their styles,
I try and
factor in these elements. While specialized taan progressions,
aprachalit or
khasiyat raags, specific bandishes, laya-orientation, etc., may be the
particular mark of a given artist's training, the question of what an
individual
singer DOES with the material is paramount to my response in
listening. There
can be no doubt that even if Alladiya Khan and Rajab Ali had had
exactly the
same training, their presentations would have been dramatically
different due
to the differences in their personalities.
In this respect I am moved to include a quote from Nani, who found a
nut back in 2004 with a nice analogy: his phrase "the spoon of
analysis" remained in my mind and yielded itself to a quick googling:
"It is difficult to put in words what today's voices lack.
The difference is that between milk which has been boiled
to a point where it has thickened to an impressive extent
and between milk which is no longer liquid anymore and
would bend the spoon if you tried to stir it. I feel I can
move the spoon of analysis while regarding Ulhas' singing;
almost always after listening to him, I feel I could have done
without it. This was true in the 1990s and this is true today.
His achievement is very impressive but he does
not extract total surrender from the listener. For that, you
have to look towards Gajananbuwa, Latafat, Limayebuwa
or Abhisheki, all of whom were true masters. "
Credit where credit is due.
WS
Abhik Majumdar
Warren, you're changing bases here!
> All the anecdotal evidence suggests that Alladiya's khyal presentation was dignified, methodical, and intellectually integrated (in the sense of having a logical progression of ideas with no steps left out)...and that his personality, likewise, was austere, severe and dignified -- Apollonian. And, contrariwise, Rajab Ali's personality (as recounted by Deodhar et al) was that of a classic eccentric;
Entirely true, but of doubtful application. For one, we're not
discussing AK here, it's his son BK. To be precise, it's a clip
attributed BK that we're talking about.
First, is BK's style similar to AK's? I'm sure you'll agree
temperamental differences can perpetrate differences in gaiki between
father and son even, differences notwithstanding genetic material
common to both styles. Munawwar Ali is a classic example.
Secondly, "austere, severe and dignified -- Apollonian" - would these
adjectives apply to the clip?
Incidentally, I was talking to a Jaipur expert just now. He says
Shruti's been claiming for years she's got BK recordings, so perhaps
this could be genuine (he hasn't heard the clip so far).
Abhik
Warren
> Sorry, didn't see this post when I responded to your earlier one oo
>
> Warren, you're changing bases here!
>
> > All the anecdotal evidence suggests that Alladiya's khyal presentation was dignified, methodical, and intellectually integrated (in the sense of having a logical progression of ideas with no steps left out)...and that his personality, likewise, was austere, severe and dignified -- Apollonian. And, contrariwise, Rajab Ali's personality (as recounted by Deodhar et al) was that of a classic eccentric;
>
> Entirely true, but of doubtful application. For one, we're not
> discussing AK here, it's his son BK. To be precise, it's a clip
> attributed BK that we're talking about.
Well, actually, I'm not talking about that clip except in the sense
that it initiated this discussion. A 1-minute clip is insufficient
for
any kind of analysis beyond the most arbitrary and subjective.
There was a bunch of discussion upthread about how personality-
based history was irrelevant to musical analysis, and my observation
was that it is in fact pertinent in some way, in that the more we know
about an particular singer, the more we can derive which elements in
her/his/its gayaki are individual and which are traditionally derived.
> First, is BK's style similar to AK's? I'm sure you'll agree
> temperamental differences can perpetrate differences in gaiki between
> father and son even, differences notwithstanding genetic material
> common to both styles. Munawwar Ali is a classic example.
When I hear Munawwar Ali I don't hear really substantive differences
in gayaki;
I hear patrization and frustration in equal measure.
For a really substantial difference in gayaki between father and son,
you'd
be hard-pressed to exceed that between my father and me: his
repertoire
consisted entirely of Tom Lehrer, Gilbert & Sullivan, and a few
popular
songs from his youth. Mine....well, you know the rest. (snark off)
>
> Secondly, "austere, severe and dignified -- Apollonian" - would these
> adjectives apply to the clip?
Insufficient evidence in the clip. To my ear, it sounds convincing,
but
there's not enough there to support abstract aesthetic evaluations.
> Incidentally, I was talking to a Jaipur expert just now. He says
> Shruti's been claiming for years she's got BK recordings, so perhaps
> this could be genuine (he hasn't heard the clip so far).
I will look forward to the resolution of this question.
WS
Abhik Majumdar
> the more we know about an particular singer, the more we can derive which elements in her/his/its gayaki are individual and which are traditionally derived.
True. At the risk of sounding like Horace Rumpole always delving into
the Oxford Book of English Verse:
O body swayed to music, O brightening glance
How can we know the dancer from the dance
(not that Rumpole ever quoted Yeats)
> When I hear Munawwar Ali I don't hear really substantive differences in gayaki; I hear patrization and frustration in equal measure.
Wouldn't agree with you there. MAK's approach was sedate, stately,
bore little of his father's effervescence. Even his presentation was
orderly, everything in correct sequence and all.
> Tom Lehrer
Aaah! Now that's genius for you. His Mozart spoof in Clementine, what
a confection! Ranks with Dudley Moore's classical parodies, in my
opinion.
> To my ear, it sounds convincing, but there's not enough there to support abstract aesthetic evaluations.
True. Other possibilities do exist.
Abhik
Warren
> > When I hear Munawwar Ali I don't hear really substantive differences in gayaki; I hear patrization and frustration in equal measure.
>
> Wouldn't agree with you there. MAK's approach was sedate, stately,
> bore little of his father's effervescence. Even his presentation was
> orderly, everything in correct sequence and all.
>
I think we are actually in agreement. The orderliness and stateliness
to which you refer strike me less as conscious aesthetic choices than
as a sort of "singing-in-a-simulation-of-BGAK's-style" -- a very
highly
informed simulation to be sure, but in essence a reduction of his
father's effulgent,
somewhat ADD approach to a set of formulae and developmental
strategies.
But your mileage may vary.
I will be away until later this evening. Cheers,
WS
c.parth...@gmail.com
A brief history of the Bhurji Khan Recording.
It is an unpublished recording done by a small company in Bombay owner
of which was a person from Kolhapur and an ex-serviceman, popularly
known as Mr. G. R.
It was expected to be published as a 16-speed vinyl record, typically
holding little over 4 minutes data each side.
This recording was done on January 30, 1948. Recording of another raga
was scheduled for the next day. For obvious reasons the next day
schedule was cancelled, the entire project was postponed. But then, it
never resumed.
The recording company faced some financial trouble, and was eventually
sold to an auctioneer, happened to be a French gentleman, Jean-Murray.
Later it was retrieved by one of our fellow musicians in late 80s, who
wants to remain unnamed.
The raw thing is almost destroyed. Whatever remains there, I have
already shared with you.
Thank you.
Warren
How do we know that any of this is true, given what has happened
elsewhere on this group?
I wish it were true.
WS
c.parth...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
When you come to India next time, give me a buzz, or mail. I think
I'll be able to give you some material proof.
My cell number is +91.9333211598 or +91.9830042712
Partha
Abhik Majumdar
Let me guess. You'll show him the 'almost destroyed', unplayable
(therefore unverifyable) raw thing with Bhurji Khan's name on it,
right?
c.parth...@gmail.com
Wrong! There are many other forms of evidences.
Abhik Majumdar
Evidence is my line, remember? All other forms of evidence, even
signed documents, are only secondary or corroborative in this regard.
The only primary evidence you have linking your sound file to the
original media is the contents of the media itself. This, as you say,
is unplayable.
Even if it were playable, you'd need strong evidence to show that the
voice it contains is Bhurji Khan's. It will not be enough to show
Bhurji Khan had made a recording; you must also prove that the one he
had made is the one in your possession.
c.parth...@gmail.com
Do you have any access to France? I can give you the address of the
person who still possess the original. Contact him and get yourself
satisfied. But no, not you, I'll pass on the details only to whom who
has minimum respect for music and musicians, and there you lack
severely. And by the way Concord didn't distort or illegally sell
anything, this man is a mushroom businessman mainly dealing in pirated
MP3 music. Since it is subjudice, I won't disclose further details.
And leave this habit of distorting other peoples' words. I have never
said the media is "unplayable". Only a fool can think of an unplayable
media being digitized.
Good bye