zamzama
Afzal A. Khan
>
>Hi,
>Rushdie mentions in passing in one of his books: "the legendary cannon
>Zamzama". presumably, this is the origin of the musical term zamzama ?
>can anyone shed more light on this ?
>thanks,
>
>-s
"Zamzama" means "Song". " Zamzama-sara hona " means "to sing".
I am not sure but, in the Turkish language, "Damdama" probably
means "Cannon" or "Battery".
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
Sorry to follow-up on my own post. "Damdama" means a
"raised battery", "sand-bagged shelter", "parapet/mound"
"beat of drum" or a "boom of cannon". Take your pick !
Apparently, "Z" has been inadvertently substituted for
"D". A printer's devil, maybe.
Afzal
Sudheendra Hangal
Sajjad Khaliq
: >
: > "Zamzama" means "Song". " Zamzama-sara hona " means "to sing".
: > I am not sure but, in the Turkish language, "Damdama" probably
: > means "Cannon" or "Battery".
: >
: > Afzal
: Sorry to follow-up on my own post. "Damdama" means a
: "raised battery", "sand-bagged shelter", "parapet/mound"
: "beat of drum" or a "boom of cannon". Take your pick !
: Apparently, "Z" has been inadvertently substituted for
: "D". A printer's devil, maybe.
No. In Arabic there are more than pronunciations of words. For example,
what commonly in the West we refer to as "Ramadhan" is also pronounced
"Ramazan". Thus, "Zam zama" and "Dam Dama" are one and the same word, and
the difference being only due to pronunciation.
--
Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
Raghu Seshadri
:
: No. In Arabic there are more than pronunciations of words. For example,
: what commonly in the West we refer to as "Ramadhan" is also pronounced
: "Ramazan". Thus, "Zam zama" and "Dam Dama" are one and the same word, and
: the difference being only due to pronunciation.
Fact is, Arabic has sounds which do not have
counterparts in other languages. There are
3 "D"s in Arabic, and one of them sounds half-way
between d and z. It is this that is used in
Ramadan( or Ramazan) , Zia-ul-haq (or Dia-ul-haq)
etc. It is neither d nor z, something in between,
but english writers have no choice but to use
d or z. And imo, no non-Arab can produce that
sound satisfactorily enough.
RS
Vivek R. Datar
If I remember right then zamzama is some form of playing
in Sitar (if not sitar then something related). I will
read up some material I have and post again, unless
someone clarifies this.
Regards
-Vivek
Afzal A. Khan
says...
>
>
>Hi to all
>
>>No. In Arabic there are more than pronunciations of words. For example,
>>what commonly in the West we refer to as "Ramadhan" is also pronounced
>>"Ramazan". Thus, "Zam zama" and "Dam Dama" are one and the same word, and
>>the difference being only due to pronunciation.
>>
>>Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>farsi words. Zamzama means a modulation and damdama like AKhan says means a
>raised battery. Zamzama starts with the arabic letter "zaal" which i think is
>pronounced with a z in arabic and damdama begins with the arabic letter "daal"
>and has a "the" sound in it.
>
>It is the letter "zuaad"(Duaad) in arabic which has a "the" sound to it, as
>found in words such as Ramadan "ramzan". Zamzama nor Damdama have "zuaad" in
>them.
>
>Regards
>Mian Tansen
"Zamzama" meaning a melodious song is with a "Ze" ,
not "Zaal". As rightly pointed out, neither Zamzama
nor Damdama are with "Zuaad". I have a feeling the
former is originally a Turkish word.
Afzal
TANSEN8106
Simon Gill
Ni Dha Ni, Ni Sa Ni Sa
Sajjad Khaliq
: Fact is, Arabic has sounds which do not have
: counterparts in other languages. There are
: 3 "D"s in Arabic, and one of them sounds half-way
: between d and z. It is this that is used in
: Ramadan( or Ramazan) , Zia-ul-haq (or Dia-ul-haq)
: etc. It is neither d nor z, something in between,
: but english writers have no choice but to use
: d or z. And imo, no non-Arab can produce that
: sound satisfactorily enough.
While what you say above is correct, that there are "3 D's" in Arabic, the
actual fact is that different pronunciations are still used , just as in
Hindi and Urdu. For example, how many times I have heard people say "Amzad
Ali Khan", instead of "Amjad Ali Khan". Now, this is not a matter of not
having the right sound in the alphabet, because the very same people will
say "Jindagi" instead of "Zindagi". I have always felt it is more to do
with their accent than anything else.
Raghu Seshadri
Amzad instead of Amjad, jindagi instead of
zindagi etc is clearly a case of not
knowing the right pronunciation, that is, it is
a case of ignorance, not inability to pronounce.
No one told them the right pronunciation
of these words when they were young, and after
adulthood, it is too late to change.
This is a completely different thing from
Ramadan/Ramazan, where English doesn't have
an exact correspondence with the arabic sound.
RS
sure...@hotmail.com
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>
> Amzad instead of Amjad, jindagi instead of
> zindagi etc is clearly a case of not
> knowing the right pronunciation, that is, it is
> a case of ignorance, not inability to pronounce.
I think it is more than that. I have seen these kinds of
"mistakes" made by people from the same geographic
region.
Or the sounds: v and b. These are also used interchangeably
by some other people.
I do not attribute it to individual ignorance. I think it is a pattern
carried over from the individual's native language.
suresh
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Raghu Seshadri
: > Amzad instead of Amjad, jindagi instead of
: > zindagi etc is clearly a case of not
: > knowing the right pronunciation, that is, it is
: > a case of ignorance, not inability to pronounce.
: I think it is more than that. I have seen these kinds of
: "mistakes" made by people from the same geographic
: region.
: Or the sounds: v and b. These are also used interchangeably
: by some other people.
: I do not attribute it to individual ignorance. I think it is a pattern
: carried over from the individual's native language.
Why, then, would they be able to say
AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
CAN pronounce both j and z.
You have a better case with bengali speakers
replacing v with b, clearly the influence of
their mothertongue. In this case, your explanation
is correct.
RS
: suresh
Sridhar
>
> sure...@hotmail.com wrote:
> : > Amzad instead of Amjad, jindagi instead of
> : > zindagi etc is clearly a case of not
> : > knowing the right pronunciation, that is, it is
> : > a case of ignorance, not inability to pronounce.
>
> : I think it is more than that. I have seen these kinds of
> : "mistakes" made by people from the same geographic
> : region.
> : Or the sounds: v and b. These are also used interchangeably
> : by some other people.
> : I do not attribute it to individual ignorance. I think it is a pattern
> : carried over from the individual's native language.
>
> Why, then, would they be able to say
> AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
> CAN pronounce both j and z.
some guys whose native tongue doesn't have distinct symbols for 2
distinct sounds tend to mix them up. a tamilian
temple guide once ushered me to the sanctum of goddess "batmavadi".
>
>
> RS
sure...@hotmail.com
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
> sure...@hotmail.com wrote:
> : Or the sounds: v and b. These are also used interchangeably
> : by some other people.
> : I do not attribute it to individual ignorance. I think it is a pattern
> : carried over from the individual's native language.
>
> Why, then, would they be able to say
> AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
> CAN pronounce both j and z.
They can. They use them interchangeably. I don't think
it is individual ignorance because I have seen this with
a number of people (over a dozen -- and they hail from the
same area).
Raghu Seshadri
: > : Or the sounds: v and b. These are also used interchangeably
: > : by some other people.
: > : I do not attribute it to individual ignorance. I think it is a pattern
: > : carried over from the individual's native language.
: >
: > Why, then, would they be able to say
: > AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
: > CAN pronounce both j and z.
:
: They can. They use them interchangeably. I don't think
: it is individual ignorance because I have seen this with
: a number of people (over a dozen -- and they hail from the
: same area).
Ah, I see. Good point.
Let me substitute "group ignorance" for
individual ignorance in my theory then.
RS
Sajjad Khaliq
: I don't think zamzama and damdama r the same things. Zamzama and damdama are
: farsi words. Zamzama means a modulation and damdama like AKhan says means a
: raised battery. Zamzama starts with the arabic letter "zaal" which i think is
: pronounced with a z in arabic and damdama begins with the arabic letter "daal"
: and has a "the" sound in it.
I seem to recall that the last time the origin of Zam Zama was raised on
this forum, it was confirmed, if memory serves me correctly, by Rajan
Parrikar that it is an Arabic term. Or it might have been confirmed to me
by a (musician) friend. Unfortunately, my memory is as bad as Bill
Clinton's these days!
kvsv...@my-dejanews.com
familiar. Rings a bell but can't place it. Any connections with DTEA School
in Delhi? Hang on! Were you from Mandir Marg/ Pusa/Lodhi road? Or from Janak
Puri DTEA. Myself from Janak Puri 10th in '85 and Pusa road 12th in '87. Do
reply to htis address or to vi...@isid1.isid.ac.in K.V.S.Vinay In article
<6u49u7$lv3$1...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
sure...@hotmail.com
> : >
> : > Why, then, would they be able to say
> : > AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
> : > CAN pronounce both j and z.
> :
> : They can. They use them interchangeably. I don't think
> : it is individual ignorance because I have seen this with
> : a number of people (over a dozen -- and they hail from the
> : same area).
>
> Ah, I see. Good point.
>
> Let me substitute "group ignorance" for
> individual ignorance in my theory then.
Sure. If that makes you feel better :-) knowledgeable(sp?), that is
suresh
Raghu Seshadri
: > Ah, I see. Good point.
: >
: > Let me substitute "group ignorance" for
: > individual ignorance in my theory then.
:
: Sure. If that makes you feel better :-) knowledgeable(sp?), that is
?
It is not a question of feeling good or
whatever; I wish to understand the reason for
such phenomena. It is interesting to me that
the v/b confusion is qualitatively
different from the g/z confusion, even though
they appear alike to a superficial observer.
That's all.
RS
sure...@hotmail.com
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>
> It is not a question of feeling good or
> whatever; I wish to understand the reason for
> such phenomena. It is interesting to me that
> the v/b confusion is qualitatively
> different from the g/z confusion, even though
> they appear alike to a superficial observer.
> That's all.
Good. Not trying to be superficial or anything, but attempting to be
non-judgmental (labels such as "ignorant") might lead you to the answer
sooner. You might also come off slightly less arrogant.
I feel that the p/b and d/t confusion (padma/batma) that someone else
brought up is also homologous to this.
Raghu Seshadri
: > It is not a question of feeling good or
: > whatever; I wish to understand the reason for
: > such phenomena. It is interesting to me that
: > the v/b confusion is qualitatively
: > different from the g/z confusion, even though
: > they appear alike to a superficial observer.
: > That's all.
:
: Good. Not trying to be superficial or anything, but attempting to be
: non-judgmental (labels such as "ignorant") might lead you to the answer
: sooner. You might also come off slightly less arrogant.
I doubt it. Ignorance is not an abuse word, as
all of us are ignorant, inevitably so, in something
or the other. To ascribe some human behavior to ignorance
is not being abusive. What would you rather believe,
that they are not ignorant, but deliberately
mispronounce words even though they know better ?
What an outlandish belief that would be.
RS
Afzal A. Khan
>
>Sajjad Khaliq (aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca) wrote:
>: : Fact is, Arabic has sounds which do not have
>: : counterparts in other languages. There are
>: : 3 "D"s in Arabic, and one of them sounds half-way
>: : between d and z. It is this that is used in
>: : Ramadan( or Ramazan) , Zia-ul-haq (or Dia-ul-haq)
>: : etc. It is neither d nor z, something in between,
>: : but english writers have no choice but to use
>: : d or z. And imo, no non-Arab can produce that
>: : sound satisfactorily enough.
>:
>: While what you say above is correct, that there are "3 D's" in Arabic, the
>: actual fact is that different pronunciations are still used , just as in
>: Hindi and Urdu. For example, how many times I have heard people say "Amzad
>: Ali Khan", instead of "Amjad Ali Khan". Now, this is not a matter of not
>: having the right sound in the alphabet, because the very same people will
>: say "Jindagi" instead of "Zindagi". I have always felt it is more to do
>: with their accent than anything else.
>
>zindagi etc is clearly a case of not
>knowing the right pronunciation, that is, it is
>a case of ignorance, not inability to pronounce.
>
>of these words when they were young, and after
>adulthood, it is too late to change.
>
>This is a completely different thing from
>Ramadan/Ramazan, where English doesn't have
>an exact correspondence with the arabic sound.
>
>RS
In College, two of my class-mates were named Fulzele
and Jambulkar. And eveybody, including themselves (!),
pronounced these names as "Fuljhele" and "Zambulkar".
Afzal
>
Afzal A. Khan
My memory too is not all that good. But, perhaps, I
did state in an earlier rejoinder that "zamzama"
(meaning a melodious song) is Persian (Farsi) and
not Arabic. And, "damdama", I believe, comes from
the Turkish language. In response to Mian Tansen's
clarification, I had also mentioned that "zamzama"
is with a "ze" and not with "zaal".
Afzal
>
Sajjad Khaliq
: >
: > Why, then, would they be able to say
: > AmZad and Jindagi ? This clearly shows they
: > CAN pronounce both j and z.
: some guys whose native tongue doesn't have distinct symbols for 2
: distinct sounds tend to mix them up. a tamilian
: temple guide once ushered me to the sanctum of goddess "batmavadi".
True, it is easy to mix up characters, but then I have seen well educated
people, doctors, engineers etc mis-pronounce. For example, Bengalis often
say "Shit" instead of "sit" as in "sit down" or "Shitar" instead of
"sitar", or "Shonar Bangla" instead of "Sonar Bangla". And yet the same
people say "sow" instead of "show".
sure...@hotmail.com
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>
> I doubt it. Ignorance is not an abuse word, as
> all of us are ignorant, inevitably so, in something
> or the other. To ascribe some human behavior to ignorance
> is not being abusive.
OK! Stop being ignorant, then.
> What would you rather believe,
> that they are not ignorant, but deliberately
> mispronounce words even though they know better ?
> What an outlandish belief that would be.
From this line of argument, I shall deduce that you are
either sporting a 'kudumi' or must be a complete 'mottai'.
Good day.
Raghu Seshadri
: > I doubt it. Ignorance is not an abuse word, as
: > all of us are ignorant, inevitably so, in something
: > or the other. To ascribe some human behavior to ignorance
: > is not being abusive.
:
: OK! Stop being ignorant, then.
It is impossible to do this, as even a million
lifetimes are not enough to know everything. One can
only educate oneself as much as possible,
a little bit every day, but to be omniscient is
an impossibility.
: > What would you rather believe,
: > that they are not ignorant, but deliberately
: > mispronounce words even though they know better ?
: > What an outlandish belief that would be.
:
: From this line of argument, I shall deduce that you are
: either sporting a 'kudumi' or must be a complete 'mottai'.
:-)
Neither, ofcourse, though nature is threatening
the latter.
RS
: Good day.