Multiple names for ragas.
Pranav Peshwe
I have come across ragas which are referred to by
more than one names. For example (and kindly CMIIW) -- Yaman and
Kalyan are one and the same raga, the same with Bilawal and Alhaiyya
Bilawal, or Sarang and Brindavani Sarang or Todi and Miyan-ki-Todi.
Are, in general, the raagaanga ragas known by two names ?
Also, are there more such cases(including, and apart from raagaanga
ragas) where a raga is known by multiple names ?
Any information would be very much appreciated. TIA.
Best regards,
Pranav
http://pranavsbrain.peshwe.com
Abhik Majumdar
This is a view held by some like Kumar Gandharva, who insisted on
referring to Yaman as Kalyan. For the record, ragas like Yaman Kalyan
and Shuddha Kalyan are distinct ragas, not identical to Yaman.
> Bilawal and Alhaiyya Bilawal
Not true. Alhaiya Bilawal is a subset of Bilawal. Others include
Devgiri B, Sarparda B, Kukubh B, Shukla B etc., also hybrids like
Hameeri B, Jaij B etc.
> Sarang and Brindavani Sarang
Same thing - Brindavani is only a variety of Sarang, albeit widely
regarded as delineating the essential form of the raganga.
> or Todi and Miyan-ki-Todi.
Todi is known by several different names - Shuddha Todi, Darbari Todi
etc. I confess I haven't really understood the distinctions between
them.
> Are, in general, the raagaanga ragas known by two names ?
Not necessarily. Raganga Kanada, for example.
> Also, are there more such cases(including, and apart from raagaanga ragas) where a raga is known by multiple names ?
Umm, Bhinna Shadja/ Kaunsi Dhani?
Abhik
drkash...@gmail.com
>
> Umm, Bhinna Shadja/ Kaunsi Dhani?
>
> Abhik
By some bhinna shadaj is prominent in uttarang while kaushik dhwani
( what is kaunsi dhani ? ) is prominent in purvang.
Zurtabi & Laxmi Kalyan as told to me by late sarangi nawaz ustad abdul
lateef khan. literally also they tally. zur means wealth & tabi means
the one inducing it. .
Mad kalyan - shav kalyan - jansammohini ( though movements are diff)
mad kauns - maljog
sakh- raamsakh
? rajeshwari ( not rageshree or rageshwari) & dhwani kauns.
More learned persons can give some input.
Dr. Kashyap
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> > For example (and kindly CMIIW) -- Yaman and Kalyan are one and the same raga
>
> This is a view held by some like Kumar Gandharva, who insisted on
> referring to Yaman as Kalyan. For the record, ragas like Yaman Kalyan
> and Shuddha Kalyan are distinct ragas, not identical to Yaman.
>
> > Bilawal and Alhaiyya Bilawal
>
> Not true. Alhaiya Bilawal is a subset of Bilawal. Others include
> Devgiri B, Sarparda B, Kukubh B, Shukla B etc., also hybrids like
> Hameeri B, Jaij B etc.
>
> > Sarang and Brindavani Sarang
>
> Same thing - Brindavani is only a variety of Sarang, albeit widely
> regarded as delineating the essential form of the raganga.
>
> > or Todi and Miyan-ki-Todi.
>
> Todi is known by several different names - Shuddha Todi, Darbari Todi
> etc. I confess I haven't really understood the distinctions between
> them.
My understanding is that Shuddha Todi uses Pa liberally going up and
down, but that in Miyan-ki-Todi, it's supposed to be restricted to
descending phrases and used more "strategically". I think Darbari Todi
= Miyan-ki-Todi, but not sure.
>
> > Are, in general, the raagaanga ragas known by two names ?
>
> Not necessarily. Raganga Kanada, for example.
Is there consensus amongst Hindustani musicians on what constitutes a
Raga (plain) Kanada ?
> > Also, are there more such cases(including, and apart from raagaanga ragas) where a raga is known by multiple names ?
>
> Umm, Bhinna Shadja/ Kaunsi Dhani?
>
Madhukauns and Chandramadhu. There are quite a few examples of
ostensibly distinct ragas with much more than just a "scale" in
common. In such cases, the level of weight you can/should assign to
the purported "differences" really varies from quite significant to
negligible if any.
Sanjeev
gaikia...@yahoo.com
Kanada). Aslo, evergreen Nand aka Anandi aka Anandi Kalyan comes to my
mind too.....
Also, Miya ki Todi = Todi aka Darbari Todi
Miya Ki Malhar = Malhar
Nand Kedar(by Kumarji) = AnandiKedar(by Pt. Narayanrao Patwardhan) -
The idea is quite similar
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Miya Ki Malhar = Malhar
Not necessarily - there is a Shuddh Malhaar as well, though not
commonly performed. I would agree that many lyrics tuned in Miyan
Malhaar often drop the prefix and just stick with Malhaar (e.g.
"Saawan Ghan Garje, Bajaaye Madhur Madhur Malhaar").
Sanjeev
Akash
wrote:
Yeah...shuddh malhar and (Plain) malhar are different ragas....but
according to many musicians (my guruji Dr. Madhusudan V. Patwardhan
was one of them) simply refer to it as Malhar. Another raga come to my
mind is Megh aka Megh Malhar.
Bhuvanesh
> Yeah...shuddh malhar and (Plain) malhar are different ragas....but
> according to many musicians (my guruji Dr. Madhusudan V. Patwardhan
> was one of them) simply refer to it as Malhar. Another raga come to my
> mind is Megh aka Megh Malhar.
Actually, I believe there is a difference between Megh and Megh Malhar
-- Megh uses komal Ni, while Megh Malhar uses both Ni's.
Bhuvanesh
Rajiv Chakravarti
Not so fast -- Pt. Ulhas Kashalkar-ji taught me a couple of bandishes
in
Megh Malhaar with the (ati)komal-gandhaar a la "gmRS" and no shudh
nishaadh at all...
RC
delta...@gmail.com
Abhik Majumdar
> By some bhinna shadaj is prominent in uttarang while kaushik dhwani ( what is kaunsi dhani ? ) is prominent in purvang.
I find it difficult to agree with this. Generally, when two ragas
share an identical arohi-avarohi and are distinguished by treating one
as poorvang pradhan and the other as uttarang pradhan, they are
distinguished by associating certain characteristic phrases with one
but not the other. For instance, the phrases G P D or P D S' exemplify
an upward movement (and also they lie n the upper tetrachord). For
this reason, they are traditionally associated with Deshkar and not
Bhoopali.
I doubt if the chalans of Bhinna Shajda or Kaunsi Dhani allow for such
differentiation. I can't recall any such phrase, or even any specific
characteristic for that matter beyond references to poorvang or
uttarang pradhan, associated with the one but not the other.
> kaushik dhwani ( what is kaunsi dhani ? )
This is an interesting question. I have a sneaky feeling "Kaushik
Dhvani" is an ex post facto sanskritisation. I have not come across
any artiste of the older generations using that particular name. Most
called it Bhinna Shadja, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan called it Kaunsi Dhani -
both his LP record and GN Joshi's article use this spelling.
http://www.indianmelody.com/badearticle1.htm
I can understand the HMV people getting the spelling wrong (they
frequently do), but I don't think Joshi would have spelt it Dhani if
BGAK had pronounced it Dhvani.
Could someone check Bhatkhande and see if he gives currency to
"Kaushik Dhvani"?
@ Sanjeev
> Is there consensus amongst Hindustani musicians on what constitutes a Raga (plain) Kanada ?
AFAIR there is none, which detracts very little from my point.
Abhik
Pranav Peshwe
> > For example (and kindly CMIIW) -- Yaman and Kalyan are one and the same raga
>
> This is a view held by some like Kumar Gandharva, who insisted on
> referring to Yaman as Kalyan. For the record, ragas like Yaman Kalyan
> and Shuddha Kalyan are distinct ragas, not identical to Yaman.
>
> > Bilawal and Alhaiyya Bilawal
>
> Not true. Alhaiya Bilawal is a subset of Bilawal. Others include
> Devgiri B, Sarparda B, Kukubh B, Shukla B etc., also hybrids like
> Hameeri B, Jaij B etc.
>
> > Sarang and Brindavani Sarang
>
> Same thing - Brindavani is only a variety of Sarang, albeit widely
> regarded as delineating the essential form of the raganga.
>
> > or Todi and Miyan-ki-Todi.
>
> Todi is known by several different names - Shuddha Todi, Darbari Todi
> etc. I confess I haven't really understood the distinctions between
> them.
>
> > Are, in general, the raagaanga ragas known by two names ?
>
> Not necessarily. Raganga Kanada, for example.
>
Do ragas by the names (simply) 'Bilawal' , 'Sarang' , 'Kanada' ,
'Bhairav' (i guess this one does) exist in HCM ? Or, are these names
_always_ used to indicate a raagaanga which envelopes a variety of
ragas derived from them ?
drkash...@gmail.com
> @ Dr Dave
> > kaushik dhwani ( what is kaunsi dhani ? )
> This is an interesting question. I have a sneaky feeling "Kaushik
> Dhvani" is an ex post facto sanskritisation. I have not come across
> any artiste of the older generations using that particular name. Most
> called it Bhinna Shadja, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan called it Kaunsi Dhani -
> both his LP record and GN Joshi's article use this spelling.
>
> http://www.indianmelody.com/badearticle1.htm
>
> I can understand the HMV people getting the spelling wrong (they
> frequently do), but I don't think Joshi would have spelt it Dhani if
> BGAK had pronounced it Dhvani.
>
> Could someone check Bhatkhande and see if he gives currency to
> "Kaushik Dhvani"?
>
> Abhik
Dear abhik,
thanks for throwing some light on purvang/utttarang phase.
For nomenclature kaunsi dhani it is definitely due to illiteracy of
older ustads. BGA always uttered HANSDHUN to Hans dhwani, does not
mean it is hans dhun. It is also true that we worship ustads for their
performances/knowledge of subjet & not by how they utter the label. I
have no idea about knowledge of Mr. Joshi & capacity to oppose mood-y
ustads for the label, esp when they have consented for recording after
long waits ( you know the interesting story ).
-Dr. Kashyap (medi...@yahoo.co.in)
Abhik Majumdar
Agreed, but in the case of Hamsadhvani, the name has been in
circulation prior to BGAK, which is how we know the correct manner of
pronunciation. I have not come across anyone earlier than BGAK use the
name Kaushik Dhvani (or Dhani). That is what makes me curious, in fact
curious whether at all the name has been in use for any significant
length of time before BGAK.
Abhik
Abhik Majumdar
of Bhimpalasi. Granted, it does not have much in common with Bhinna
Shajda, but then neither does the Kauns ang.
Abhik
drkash...@gmail.com
Dear that is what compells us not to be in the favour of kaunsi dhani.
Any way rose does not change its fragrance if you call it by some
other name. Also it is not possible to document/label everything that
originates from centuries old culture. Unfortunately here practice is
the main thing & people ( untiring efforts of pt.Bhatkhandeji) later
on theorized what musicians used to perform.
Many examples of twisting the bandishes can be sited in a similar way.
very common one in darbari is 'hazarat turkman' as 'hazarat to.ore.e
kamaan'. But people do not feel it necessary to challenge them, so far
as raag structure is maintained.
May be we are on some offshoot rather than the main thread. Other rmic-
ers may get bored.
Abhik Majumdar
Actually I still have not understood what does not. Given especially
that we cannot rely on "past practice" the way we can in the case of
Hamsadhvani, I see a need to be open about the possibility of
alternate views.
> Also it is not possible to document/label everything that originates from centuries old culture. Unfortunately here practice is the main thing
You are right, documenting everything is not possible. At the same
time, there has been some significant amount of documentation done,
which cannot be ignored. If this documentation does not mention Kaunsi
Dhwani/Dhani at all, it automatically raises my suspicion whether the
name was at all used in the past.
> May be we are on some offshoot rather than the main thread. Other rmic- ers may get bored.
You need not worry about that. This kind of offshoots used to be very
common to RMIC in its heyday, it's only now that we hardly get to see
involved discussion in this forum :)
Abhik
mausam
> On Oct 3, 8:30 pm, Abhik Majumdar <abhik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > PS: There exists a raga called Dhani, roughly speaking an audava form
> > of Bhimpalasi. Granted, it does not have much in common with Bhinna
> > Shajda, but then neither does the Kauns ang.
>
> > Abhik
>
bhinnashadja
Mausam
mausam
additional komal gandhar in megh malhar to distinguish the two more
clearly. Others do not use any additional note, but strenghthen the
use of MRP, the signature of malhar ang, to bring out megh malhar.
I have not heard a megh malhar with shuddha nishad.
Mausam
On Oct 2, 4:02 pm, Rajiv Chakravarti <rajiv.chakrava...@gmail.com>
wrote:
drda...@yahoo.co.in
> > Dear that is what compells us not to be in the favour of kaunsi dhani.
>
> Actually I still have not understood what does not. Given especially
> that we cannot rely on "past practice" the way we can in the case of
> Hamsadhvani, I see a need to be open about the possibility of
> alternate views.
>
> > Also it is not possible to document/label everything that originates from centuries old culture. Unfortunately here practice is the main thing
>
> You are right, documenting everything is not possible. At the same
> time, there has been some significant amount of documentation done,
> which cannot be ignored. If this documentation does not mention Kaunsi
> Dhwani/Dhani at all, it automatically raises my suspicion whether the
> name was at all used in the past.
>
Kaushik dhwani or kaunsi dhani
Long & short of the story, let us get the answers of following
questions, or probaly it becomes an exercise for arguments rather than
a subject.
-- Just give a google search for kaunsi dhani & kaushik dhwani. Is
google inadequate or illeterate ?
- ITC-SRA & Parrikar's webpages do not show the word kaunsi dhani,
but it definitely uses the word kaushik dhwani in context to bhinna
shadaj. Can we rely these sites ?
- Even pt. rasiklal andharia used to call kaushik dhwani. can we
rely ?
- What is the kaushik dhwani, if kaunsi dhani is a different existing
entity?
- Any other artist having recorded ( from patiala too) kaunsi dhani ?
- One of my advocate friends has proved a ceiling fan as a pigeon in a
court of law, on the basis of evidences. Does it match with the fact ?
(But he believes that his mother's husband is his father without any
DNA test under the cover of culture etc..)
- what are the raags kaushak dhwani, kaushik dhuni which top rank
musicians utter so frequently ?
Abhik Majumdar
Google is neither inadequate nor illeterate (sic), it's just that one
needs to be very focussed about the queries posed to it.
I am sure a google search will favour Kaushik Dhvani over Kaunsi
Dhani, because it is an acknowledged fact that the latter is hardly
used presently, there is no dispute about that.
However, that is not my question. What I would like to know is, were
either "Kaushik Dhvani" or "Kaunsi Dhani" in use _prior to_ BGAK?
Neither a google search nor any other search indicates this.
The significance of this question is surely manifest. If the name was
not in popular use before BGAK started using it (and let's recall even
GN Joshi was not familiar with the name when he heard BGAK use it),
then either he created the name himself, or it was used only by the
Patiala Gharana before it spread. And in such a case the distortion
possibility you suggested ("dhvani" --> "dhuni") must be rejected.
Abhik