Raag Question
il_kh...@my-deja.com
I have heard of a raag called "Zeelum" or something to
that effect. Can any of our friends tell me more about
it --- and whether it has been used in hindi film music ?
Afzal
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
sanj...@my-deja.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I have heard of a raag called "Zeelum" or something to
> that effect. Can any of our friends tell me more about
> it --- and whether it has been used in hindi film music ?
>
> Afzal
I believe you mean "Zeelaf" - this is a derivative of Bhairav thaat,
and comes in several flavors, but I think the most common uses the
following notes:
S G M P d S"::S" d P M G S (Dha is komal, all the rest are shuddh, skip
Ni and Re).
Rajan Parrikar had posted an extensive piece on Bhairav and its
varieties on RMIC, which you can find at www.sawf.org. Included in that
post was a look at Zeelaf.
IIRC, this raga is a conception of Ameer Khushru. I can't remember any
filmy examples of Zeelaf, but as you might guess, the more common
Bhairav varieties have multiple instantiations in the film world.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
il_kh...@my-deja.com
Thank you. In fact I had heard of this raag in the
context of Amir Khusrau's contribution to Hindustani
classical music. He is supposed to be the originator
of the raag "yaman" also which was (previously) called
"Aiman" (meaning "peace"). Could you please give me
your take on this ?
Afzal
Rajan P. Parrikar
> context of Amir Khusrau's contribution to Hindustani
> classical music. He is supposed to be the originator
> of the raag "yaman" also which was (previously) called
> "Aiman" (meaning "peace"). Could you please give me
> your take on this ?
I too would like to see evidence that Khusrau was
responsible for Yaman. I am very skeptical though.
Yaman, in its current form, is a highly developed
melody and the parent scale (kalyANi) has been around
in Karnataka (and probably Tamil) music for a long
time. Khusrau is also credited with Sarparda Bilawal.
Again, highly unlikely that the melody we know
today was anything like that in his time. It is
well to remember that Khusrau himself leaves no doubt
about the complexity and beauty of the music existing
in India in his days.
On a related note: it has become fashionable to
assign credit to the "sufis" for anything noble in
medieval India whose origins are unknown or blurred.
There is, of course, a large body of work for which
we may unambiguously point to the Islamic influence:
mass slaughter, plunder and rape, destruction of
thousands of Hindu and Buddhist temples, universities
and so on. While the towelheads are not, have never been,
our equals in music we must duly acknowledge their
respectable record and achievements in the areas
just outlined.
India is fair game for every outsider who wishes to assert
his own 'influence' on its cultural and intellectual
accomplishements. It is, however, curious that such
influence extends only to areas that are today considered
highly desirable. Has anyone ever claimed to have influenced
the institution of caste? No sir, that is a wholly
indigenous achievement.
From Miramar, Panjim
Warm regards,
r
Raghu Seshadri
: India is fair game for every outsider who wishes to assert
: accomplishements. It is, however, curious that such
: influence extends only to areas that are today considered
: highly desirable. Has anyone ever claimed to have influenced
: the institution of caste? No sir, that is a wholly
: indigenous achievement.
Quite so. I have read English writers who claim
that the Krishna story was inspired by the Jesus
story :-) [ after all, look at the parallels, both
babies were born at midnight, both were deemed
hostile by the rulers of the day, and don't forget,
the story of Yamuna parting is evidently influenced
by the Red Sea parting by Moses ]
In Sri Madhva's philosophy, Vayu is given an unusually
elevated status, prompting a British writer to
claim that obviously Sri Madhva had heard about
the Holy Ghost from the Portuguese :-)
RS
naniwadekar
I agree with most of the sentiments you expressed. But I look at them
from a different angle.
> I too would like to see evidence that Khusrau was
> responsible for Yaman. I am very skeptical though.
It is possible that Khusrau did think of Yaman. I have no evidence for
or against it. But he was a highly talented fellow. So maybe he
conceived Yaman in its original version. Given this, I find the
occasion for your outburst surprising. You are taking offense where
none exists.
>
> On a related note: it has become fashionable to
> assign credit to the "sufis" for anything noble in
> medieval India whose origins are unknown or blurred.
> There is, of course, a large body of work for which
> we may unambiguously point to the Islamic influence:
> mass slaughter, plunder and rape, destruction of
> thousands of Hindu and Buddhist temples, universities
> and so on. While the towelheads are not, have never been,
> our equals in music we must duly acknowledge their
> respectable record and achievements in the areas
> just outlined.
>
When did you last hear Israel cry about rape and plunder about other
party? Israel IS being pushed back today. But remember the odds it
faces.
Why don't Hindus loot? Because they are fools. Again, remember that
Shivaji did loot Surat. He did not merely protest against loot / Jizia
tax by other party.
> India is fair game for every outsider who wishes to assert
> his own 'influence' on its cultural and intellectual
> accomplishements. It is, however, curious that such
> influence extends only to areas that are today considered
> highly desirable. Has anyone ever claimed to have influenced
> the institution of caste? No sir, that is a wholly
> indigenous achievement.
>
Caste does seem to me an indigenous achievement. We have Brahmins to
thank for that. Is Balasaheb Deoras's speech in Vasant Vyakhyaan_maalaa
of 1970s, delivered just before emergency, available on the net?
Everybody should read that anti-hindu tirade.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
imppio
"Raghu Seshadri" <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:39b51acc$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> Rajan P. Parrikar (parr...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> : India is fair game for every outsider who wishes to assert
> : his own 'influence' on its cultural and intellectual
> : accomplishements. It is, however, curious that such
> : influence extends only to areas that are today considered
> : highly desirable. Has anyone ever claimed to have influenced
> : the institution of caste? No sir, that is a wholly
> : indigenous achievement.
>
> Quite so. I have read English writers who claim
> that the Krishna story was inspired by the Jesus
> story :-) [ after all, look at the parallels, both
> babies were born at midnight, both were deemed
> hostile by the rulers of the day, and don't forget,
> the story of Yamuna parting is evidently influenced
> by the Red Sea parting by Moses ]
It is actually otherway around.
Jesus visited Bharat and got many ideas from culture prevelant there. He
instructed his followers to keep away from Bharat, as he was sure they will
learn the real source of some of his knowledge.
Christ and Christianity are variations derived from Krishna!!
Cast system in Bharat was a loose artisan concept in the begining. After
Islamic invaders started plundering and converting, people thought they will
be safer and protect their identity by restricting marriages within their
own community, and not try to mix with people that are diffrent from their
own relations.
cheers,
S
AKTALWAR
Amir Khusro was a very talented man. He had a Persian father and a Hindu
mother. He was born in India, where he grew up. His mother tongue was Hindi
(then Hindui or Hindvi) but he wrote poetry in both Hindi and Persian. He held
a unique position in the courts of early muslim invaders/rulers (Balban, Khilji
and Tughlak) as an Indian who was proficient in Persian and a great musician
and poet. He was not only proud of Indian music as being the best in the world
(in his opinion) but he also held a high opinion of himself. He wrote that
"India is the greatest not only because.......but also because she has a
musician and poet of my calibre". (My source for this, Sangeet Chintamani,
Sangeet Karyalay, Hathras, UP, 1989, p252)
His enthusiastic admirers in his time as well as in recent times have credited
him with things he hid but also with things he did not do.
AKTALWAR
Re: Raag Question
>From: akta...@aol.com (AKTALWAR)
>Date: 9/7/00 10:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20000907132538...@ng-fe1.aol.com>
gulfam...@my-deja.com
influences such as "rape, loot and plunder", would you admit that with
so much raping going in those days that you are an illigetimate product
resulted from the raping of your mother by a muslim invader...
please give credit where it is due, it's nazi specimens like you who
have been primarily responsible for the break up of undivided India and
causing tensions between muslims and hindus. I cannot believe that you
exist in the same place as greats such as Gandhi and Nehru ji.
Hazrat Amir Khusro has been responsible for the creation of many raags
such as Saazgiri, and Zeelaaf.
You need some help and may you have mercy on yourself.
I am surprised that others don't have any guts to criticise your racist
views.
namashkaar
Gulfam Hassan
In article <8p2qpe$c...@drn.newsguy.com>,
naniwadekar
> Shri Parrikar, with your extensive knowledge on the topic of Islamic
> influences such as "rape, loot and plunder", would you admit that with
> so much raping going in those days that you are an illigetimate
product
> resulted from the raping of your mother by a muslim invader...
>
Shri Gulfaam Hasan :
I hold no brief for Parrikar. But it may be true that one of my or
Parrikar's ancestors was the product of a muslim rape. That said, the
Islamic blood in our veins, if at all it exists, exists in such tiny
per-centage that it can be ignored. And the same pair of parents can
sire a mad son and a sane son : Aurangzeb was Dara Shukoh's brother. So
even your logic is not convincing.
Do I also assume that the few sane elements in Muslim society exist
because they had Hindu mothers, and have hindu blood in them? I am
using your own logic.
> please give credit where it is due, it's nazi specimens like you who
> have been primarily responsible for the break up of undivided India
and
> causing tensions between muslims and hindus. I cannot believe that you
> exist in the same place as greats such as Gandhi and Nehru ji.
>
Nazi elements like Parrikar and Nathuram Godse were opposed to
partition. It was Jinnah who wanted it. And he achieved it with the
help of your idols Gandhiji and Nehru. He was presented 55 crore Rs as
a present for his efforts. In pre-Gandhi days, Jinnah was a
nationalist. He once represented Lok_maanya Tilak as a lawyer in a
court case.
> Hazrat Amir Khusro has been responsible for the creation of many raags
> such as Saazgiri, and Zeelaaf.
>
Shri Talwar has written a balanced mail in praise of Khusrau. Did he
invent Saazgiri and Zeeluf? These raags are practically and deservedly
forgotten today. Did he invent Yaman, the greatest raag of them all?
May be he did. It is quite possible. It would be stupid to say all
things muslim / Islamic are bad. On the other hand, name muslim
countries which are a good place to live in.
> You need some help and may you have mercy on yourself.
>
Thanks for the original thought. Let me assure you Parrikar can do very
well without your help or your Allah's help.
I don't know whether Canadian writer Michael Ignatieff is a secret rss
agent or not. But it is unlikely. He has written that if muslims on the
whole are to make good impression, and help themselves, the more
civilised ones among them better stand up and be counted.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
gulfam...@my-deja.com
Thanks for your message. If you had taken notice of my last posting I
hadn't attacked any religion because I have the decency to know that
all faiths lead to one path and that is to serve the almighty. No faith
whether it be Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or Judaism propagates
hatred and nationalism. The only reason why I wrote the message was to
stop the likes of Parrikar from saying anti-muslim things which harm
hindu-muslim relationships which are already fragile and would like to
ask fellow posters to back me up in this discussion. We should all be
discussing music and not get embroiled in racist discussions.
However in your message it is clear how much you depise muslims. The
political nature of your message further gives evidence to your
extremism.
> Thanks for the original thought. Let me assure you Parrikar can do
very
> well without your help or your Allah's help.
>
Allah is not only mine but is everyone's.
Khuda Hafiz
Gulfam
In article <8p8p8l$adl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Arnab Chakrabarty
Let me start by addressing the Amir Khusrau/Yaman question. The parent
scale KalyAnI, as mentioned by Rajan Parrikar, was already in use in the
south by A. D. 800, (Visvanathan, 1977:13) and therefore, it is unlikely
that what we know as Yaman today, is the contribution of Amir Khusrau. A
weightier pointer to this is the fact that Yaman and Kalyan were treated
as separate entities until the mid/late-ninteenth century. Drs. Allyn
Miner and Sanjoy Bandopadhyay would perhaps be the individuals best
suited to elaborate on this (latter) point.
Meanwhile, as a reminder to Shri Talwar, Balban was an individual
ruler whereas Tughluq and Khilji were dynasty names. Kindly make it a
point to be specific in the future while feigning erudition. Also, what
is your meter to judge Amir Khusrau's "greatness" in today's context? We
now know that from a technical standpoint, a musician who lived five
hundred years ago would be no match for a performer of today (barring of
course, the hacks who now abound in this land of milk and honey, having
set up shop at almost all major cities. DISCLAIMER: Not an attack on the
|Secret Empire of San Rafael|). Also, how reliable are the histories
quoted in "HAthras" publications? I have read them all (in Hindi), just
so that you do not raise that question. For all I know, Talwar Sahib may
be a respectable individual (as he appears to be), but the combination
of "ignorant" arrogance and faulty scholarship is a little much for my
taste.
To take Rajan Parrikar's statement further, I contend that it is still
fashionable amongst many (sp. khAndAnI) musicians of India to avoid
researching historical grey areas by crediting instruments, bandishes,
or ragas to some sUfI or the other. Therefore, I am not sure how much I
will agree with Ustad Vilayat Khan Saheb's attribution of Saazgiri to
Amir Khusrau. It must, however, be brought to Shri Dhananjay
Naniwadekar's attention that Vilayat Khan Saheb's rendition of Saazgiri
(HMV 1966) is not much short of a masterpiece, and has certainly done a
lot to retrieve the poor, "undeserving" babe of a raga from the
cemetery.
Now for some socio-political discourse. It is difficult to measure and
compare the musical contribution of either community (Hindu and Muslim)
in this long, rather sparsely documented history of ICM. First of all,
the Muslims came at a fairly late yet dynamic stage of the evolution of
this music, and it is not unreasonable to believe that they elevated the
performance practice to standards hitherto unprecedented. The
conservatory-style riyaaz that most practitioners of this art have
subjected themselves to, for the past 100-150 years, is definitely a
gift of the Muslim artistes. Where were we, the Hindus, in the early
19th century when our boys were forbidden from going anywhere near a
musicians' colony? It was later (late 19th and early 20th centuries) in
Bengal, Maharashtra, Avadh, Benares and Karnataka (with the exception of
a few Hindu Gharanas such as Betiya and Darbhanga {again, please note
that the early Mishras of Benares learnt from muslim Ustads and that
Basat Khan was at one point, a court musician of KAshI}) that some
members of the patron class took their musical training to a serious and
professional level. Just for the information of certain idiots on this
forum who think they know very much, Allauddin Khan Saheb was also a
product of this Bengali renaissance (which came late to Music) and his
father was a Hindu Brahmin who converted to Islam. This movement
included major zamindar families of Bengal such as the Roy Choudhuris,
the Tagores, the Maitras and the Ghosh family of PAthUrIA GhAt (the last
family mentioned here were disciples and patrons of Abdullah Khan Saheb,
Md. Ameer Khan Saheb and later, Hafiz Ali Khan Saheb).
Regards,
A
naniwadekar
> In article <8p8rfh$dch$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> gulfam...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Naniwadekar ji
>
> Thanks for your message. If you had taken notice of my last posting I
> hadn't attacked any religion because I have the decency to know that
> all faiths lead to one path and that is to serve the almighty.
If you say that, I appreciate your sentiments.I have never claimed my
religion has a monopoly on faith, and other people should be converted
or killed.
> No faith
> whether it be Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or Judaism propagates
> hatred and nationalism.
I am not sure about that. Monotheist religions are inherently
intolerant. Christianity is intolerant. (Pope has just attacked even
other Christ-believers who don't believe in him or Rome. Read this
week's London Times issues.) But Christians have great liberal
tradition. The British ruled India for many years. But there are so
many admirable things about them. I am a desparate anglophile. This
liberal tradition is absent / very weak among muslims.
Former supreme court judge M K Chhagala and Talat Mahmood opted for
Hindu-style funerals. But they are exceptions in accepting cross
culture influences.
> However in your message it is clear how much you depise muslims. The
> political nature of your message further gives evidence to your
> extremism.
Read my statements above again. I also wrote Muslims should help
themselves. I did not write muslims should perish overnight. But you
can't ignore that they are causing havoc in many parts of my country.
> Allah is not only mine but is everyone's.
>
So long as Allah is ready to bless me without wanting me to change my
religion, his blessings are okay.
Now to Arnab's points.
I had never heard even the name "SAAZGIRI" before. But one brilliant
rendition does not make it a main-stream raag. Kumarji's Malawati is
great. But who else sings it? I don't even call it a raag.
Arnab is right in praising muslim tradition in Indian music. They were
head and shoulders above hindus in 1900. But Nivrutti bua Sarnaik
claimed many years ago that now maharashtrians have overtaken muslims
in music. All those Goans and kannadigas who have made maharashtra
their home stand testimony to this. But both muslims and maharashtrians
have stopped producing good musicians. Now we only have R D Burman or
his ghost and A R Rehman's "Jan Gana Mana".
AKTALWAR
>ruler whereas Tughluq and Khilji were dynasty names. Kindly make it a
>point to be specific in the future while feigning erudition.
Dear Mr Chakrabary,
The intent was to state that Khusro held important positions in several courts.
I left out the compete names for brevity. I don't think that it takes much
erudition to know the full names of the rulers - many books on indian history
have these and I did consult books since I do not have the "erudition" to
remember them.
Also, what
>is your meter to judge Amir Khusrau's "greatness" in today's context? We
>now know that from a technical standpoint, a musician who lived five
>hundred years ago would be no match for a performer of today (barring of
>course, the hacks who now abound in this land of milk and honey, having
>set up shop at almost all major cities. DISCLAIMER: Not an attack on the
>|Secret Empire of San Rafael|).
He was considered great in his time. I do not recall comparing him to today's
artists. Since we have no recordings, I do not know how one would know. I
certainly do not have the erudition to judge. It appears that you do.
Also, how reliable are the histories
>quoted in "HAthras" publications? I have read them all (in Hindi), just
>so that you do not raise that question. For all I know, Talwar Sahib may
>be a respectable individual (as he appears to be), but the combination
>of "ignorant" arrogance and faulty scholarship is a little much for my
>taste.
Precisely why I quoted the source. This way anyone with opinions on the Hathras
publications can draw his own conclusions. It appears that they don't measure
up to your level of erudition. I also quoted the source to show that my
knowledge - unlike yours - is not original. I was simply repeating what I read
in a book. I am sorry that you consider this arrogant.
Please also note that I only quoted Bagchi on Kalyan and Yaman, since unlike
you, I do not know.
Finally I think it is futile to compare Indian Hindu and Muslim artists today.
We are all from essentially the same musical culture and even the same stock -
not that I consider that important. Besides how does a musician's knowledge
change when he converts from Hinduism to Islam?
Regards
A
naniwadekar
> Also, what is your meter to judge Amir Khusrau's "greatness" in
> today's context? We now know that from a technical standpoint, a
> musician who lived five
> >hundred years ago would be no match for a performer of today
>
today's
> artists.
What is the point in comparing Amir Khusrau with today's performers?
Johnny Weismuller was the first swimmer to swim 100 m freestyle under 1
minute (I think). Today EVERY swimmer in Olympic finals swims that race
in 51-52 seconds. But who remembers their names? Whereas people
remember Johnny W, Roger Bannister, Nadia Comaneci because they scaled
new peaks.
Pedro Martinez's ERA of 2.07 last year is compared favourably to his
own 1.90 era season all of 2 years before. This was because baseball
witnessed an offensive explosion in 1998-99. You can only compare a
performer with his contemporaries.
The same with Khusrau. For him to have done what he did all those years
ago is a great achievement. (BTW, will someone tell me what was his
period? I will , of course, forget it promptly. But do tell me if you
know. Is Arnab saying "500 years ago" figuratively or literally?) You
can't compare today's performers with him. They will all be forgotten
in due course, barring a few. Khusrau's name still survives. By all
accounts music was sufficiently developed in his day. (please don't
bother to make the bookish point that I don't even know his period, and
am yet claiming that music was developed in his day.) Yet Khusrau's
achievements stand out as compared to others who contributed to that
era in music.
Mr Talwar, your observation that his admirers credited him with many
things he did not do is very likely true. That is human nature. After
50 years, people may invent a story that Bhimsen / Lata / Abhisheki
caused rain to fall by a great rendition of Miyan Ki Malhar.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
AKTALWAR
>From: naniwadekar nan...@hotmail.com
>Date: 9/7/00 8:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8p9n9o$e4a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
(BTW, will someone tell me what was his
>period? I will , of course, forget it promptly. But do tell me if you
>know. Is Arnab saying "500 years ago" figuratively or literally?)
Amir Khusrau, 1253-1325. This was in the early days of Muslim rule. All the
more reason that the courts built up myths around him. There were not many in
those courts who knew much about Indian music.
Mr. Chakrabarty, I assure you that I do not consider your statement of 500
years as a reflection of your erudition or lack of it. I simply looked up one
of those Hathras books to get the dates which put him about 750 years to 675
years ago.
Regards
A
Rajan P. Parrikar
>No faith
>whether it be Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or Judaism propagates
>hatred and nationalism.
The Quran is quite clear on what treatment is to be given
to kafirs.
May Allah have mercy on you for spreading falsehoods
about His word.
Warm regards,
r
Ashok
>
>................................................................ We
>now know that from a technical standpoint, a musician who lived five
>hundred years ago would be no match for a performer of today
I fail to see the function and status of such an assertion in
what is a thoughtful piece.
>................ It was later (late 19th and early 20th centuries) in
>Bengal, Maharashtra, Avadh, Benares and Karnataka (with the exception of
>a few Hindu Gharanas such as Betiya and Darbhanga {again, please note
>that the early Mishras of Benares learnt from muslim Ustads and that
>Basat Khan was at one point, a court musician of KAshI}) that some
>members of the patron class took their musical training to a serious and
>professional level.
>A
Don't forget Goa!
Ashok
Rajan P. Parrikar
>please give credit where it is due, it's nazi specimens like you who
>have been primarily responsible for the break up of undivided India
It was the hate-mongering Jinnah, renowned for his fondness
for whiskey, pork and pussy, who was responsible for partition
and the spillage of untold pints of blood.
>Hazrat Amir Khusro has been responsible for the creation of many raags
>such as Saazgiri, and Zeelaaf.
It is almost certainly a myth that Sazgiri is a Khusro creation.
The a la mode Sazgiri is a highly sankeerNa rAga (and not very
imaginative or rasa-pradhAn at that), employing sanchAris from
Marwa, Pooriya and Poorvi angas. It is not suited to kHayAl gAyaki
and is probably a hangover from the dhrupad period (if not later).
Inshallah you will enroll in History001 and Music001. Now go
home and change your nappies.
Khuda Hafiz,
r
gulfam...@my-deja.com
Yes, it was Jinnah and psychotic newts like you who were responsible
for the breakup of my beloved India.
Parrikar you must understand that Nazism has been an outdated subject
since the death of your master Hitler. Please go home, wear his uniform
and watch his Movietone news clippings.....
Obviously with your one sided racist views you would totally disregard
the achievements of Hazrat Amir Khusro.
You have my sympathies......
Khuda Hafiz
Gulfaam
In article <8pa85g$g...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
A.Pavan
>things he did not do is very likely true. That is human nature. After
>50 years, people may invent a story that Bhimsen / Lata / Abhisheki
>caused rain to fall by a great rendition of Miyan Ki Malhar.
Certain contemporary musicians have already done the good deed and
thrust greatness upon themselves (or had their doting chelas and
chamchas do so). Look at Jasraj's website. It has this story of how
the deer came running to the stage while Jasraj was rendering a divine
Miyan Ki Todi. :-)
Pavan
Raghu Seshadri
: Shri Parrikar, with your extensive knowledge on the topic of Islamic
: influences such as "rape, loot and plunder", would you admit that with
: so much raping going in those days that you are an illigetimate product
: resulted from the raping of your mother by a muslim invader...
It is just awful that you'd make demeaning
remarks about someone's mother as an argumentation
technique. Isn't mother a sacred icon for all
subcontinental cultures ?
: please give credit where it is due, it's nazi specimens like you who
: have been primarily responsible for the break up of undivided India and
: causing tensions between muslims and hindus. I cannot believe that you
I don't get this at all. Someone who proposes killing
off all members of a community can be called a nazi;
not someone who just recalls that in the past,
certain invaders did horrible things. If so, all
historians who write about the Viking invasion of
England, or the massacre of aborigines in Australia
would have to be called nazis. This is nonsense.
: I am surprised that others don't have any guts to criticise your racist
: views.
Please explain why it is racist to say that
(for instance) Aurangzeb beheaded Sambhaji,
or that Guru Angad was tortured by the moguls,
or indeed for that matter, that Eric the Red
menaced the coastline of Normandy.
RS
Arnab Chakrabarty
wish to insult you in person. My animosity was not directed towards you
but towards your rather authoritative tone to which you and most of us on
this forum are not entitled. I should try my best to assume as analytical
a form of expression as possible, but in this realm of topics subject to
opinions, I lose perspective too, for I have an opinion.
Also, for Messrs Talwar, Naniwadekar and Dhareshwar - I was trying to
generate an analogy when I said a musician of "500 years ago" cannot be
compared with a present day musician.
The reason why I so openly loathe the Amir Khusro myth is that his
greatness as a musician was established after his death. From accounts of
that time, Khusro was better known as a poet and philosopher. Mr. Talwar,
I am quite aware of the period of Khusro's life and career and once
again, did not use the phrase "500 years" to indicate Khusro's antiquity.
As for the HAthras publications (like most histories written in post
independence India), they do not deserve to be quoted on music history.
Their authority and authenticity on TAlas are also very dubious. We must
credit the great Pandit Bhatkhande for saving the face of that publishing
house by penning their rAga treatise.
Of course, Ashok, I should not forget Goa, for that state has gifted the
golden great of vocal music, Kesarbai Kerkar, to all of us!
*SPLASH*
Abhik Majumdar
It's not merely the pettiness going around that anguishes me. I mean, for
heaven's sake, this is suppposed to be a forum for *classical music*, whose
very ethos lies in rising above such prejudicial thinking. Ustad Abdul Karim
Khan singing Gopala Mori Karuna and Pandit Bhaskarbuwa Bakhle singing
Hazrat
Khwaja Sangh are only two examples of this. The airing of such prejudices in
a
forum meant for music can only undermine this transcendental quality of
classical music, which lend it a unique dignity and nobility. This damage
done
to music, and that too by those who claim to love it, is really what I find
appalling.
In all humility I appeal to you, could we please, out of our love for music,
at least act in a restrained manner in fora such as this one?
Also, ever since the dawn of civilisation, individuals of different
communities have been pointing their fingers at each other. For a change,
couldn't we, who pride ourselves on being "cultured", instead look at the
sins
of our own community and try to atone for them?
Abhik Majumdar
PS: Inwhat follows, I speak on behalf of myself ONLY. I do NOT claim to
represent the opinion of the Hindu community or any member thereof apart
from
myself (and nor, indeed, do I have the slightest desire to do so).
Gulfambhai, I think I see your point that your remarks (which you've
acknowledged were quite outrageous and not at all called for) were in
reaction
to the previous postings in this discussion. Now while I would not condone
your remarks (two wrongs can never make a right), at the same time I would
(once again, speaking purely for myself) like to express my deepest and most
sincere regrets about the reprehensible remarks made about Islam and Muslims
in this discussion.
------------------------------------------------------------
naniwadekar
pa...@mega.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) wrote:
>
> Certain contemporary musicians have already done the good deed and
> thrust greatness upon themselves (or had their doting chelas and
> chamchas do so). Look at Jasraj's website. It has this story of how
> the deer came running to the stage while Jasraj was rendering a divine
> Miyan Ki Todi. :-)
>
> Pavan
Pavan :
Thanks for the intersting info. I don't go anywhere near Jasraj the
singer or Jasraj the singer-magician. But I am not surprised to know
that about Jasraj.
There are many types of gurus. Some are embarrassed by the fawning
sycophancy of their disciples and keep things in perspective, as far as
they can. (Their fans frequently render them immaterial bu their
enthu.) Then there are some who are secretly pleased by these myths
about them. And some even encourage them. To which category Jasraj
belongs is anybody's guess.
I am surprised whenever learned music lovers confess their admiration
for Jasraj. To be fair, there do exist a few of them, and, indeed, he
is not entirely useless, even for the unsympathetic me. I once heard a
brilliant Bhimpalas by Jasraj on radio about 10 years ago. The music
was really very worthy. For about 5-10 minutes. Then it soared to such
heights that I was left behind. Presumably, the deers (please don't
tell me what the plural of deer is) came running in. But it was a radio
performance, not on TV nor on Internet. And so poor me can't vouch for
the appearance by deers.
Can deers speak? I would like to know whether some of them mistake his
flowing hair for leaves of a tree. And want a good lunch. Or breakfast,
since the raag in question is Todi.
Keith Erskine
: This discussion has left me stunned; that is the only way I can put it.
: It's not merely the pettiness going around that anguishes me. I mean, for
: heaven's sake, this is suppposed to be a forum for *classical music*, whose
: very ethos lies in rising above such prejudicial thinking.
Thanks very much for stating that. Paraphrasing the words of Amjad Ali Khan
at a concert in Houston, Texas:
"I hope that our music, which requires concentration, patience, &
perserverance, in some way can help bring peace, as these are the
same qualities required for peace"
Keith Erskine
I don't speak for HP.
gulfam...@my-deja.com
The point is that we should all be discussing music and not dwelve into
political/ racial matters which cause further divisions between muslims
and hindus. I only posted in response to the original posting which was
directed against Muslims and had no connection with classical music
whatsoever. I am sure that there are other forums out where the
attrocities of Aurangzeb et al could be discussed but please not in
this one.
Khuda Hafiz
Gulfam
In article <39D0...@MailAndNews.com>,
Raghu Seshadri
: Abhik sahab thank you very much for your comments.
: The point is that we should all be discussing music and not dwelve into
: political/ racial matters which cause further divisions between muslims
: and hindus. I only posted in response to the original posting which was
: directed against Muslims and had no connection with classical music
: whatsoever. I am sure that there are other forums out where the
: attrocities of Aurangzeb et al could be discussed but please not in
: this one.
A mighty disingenuous whitewash, I must say. If your
point simply was that non-music matters are not
relevant in rmic ( a valid point) all you had to do
was say so; instead you referred to Rajan's mother
in an indecent manner, and abused him by calling him
a nazi besides.
RS
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Yes, it was Jinnah and psychotic newts like you who were responsible
>for the breakup of my beloved India.
No, janAb, these fantasies you have won't wash.
If you must lose your day-job playing the apostle
of peace and tolerance know that your "beloved India" is
again under siege by rascals who would want to chop it up
further in the name of Islam.
>Parrikar you must understand that Nazism has been an outdated subject
>since the death of your master Hitler.
Ah, the N-word and roping in of ol' Adolf. The most
devastating cop-out invented after Al Gore invented
the Internet.
>Obviously with your one sided racist views you would totally disregard
>the achievements of Hazrat Amir Khusro.
Not at all. It is not our fault that you do not have
basic intelligence and comprehension ability. May Allah, the
Merciful and Compassionate, grant you both. Now get into
your bouncer seat. Quick.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>The point is that we should all be discussing music and not dwelve into
Janab-e-Beloved-India,
Your sterling contributions to musical discourse here
are not visible to the naked eye. May Allah grant us
all (kafirs included) infrared vision so that we may
partake in the bounty.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Paraphrasing the words of Amjad Ali Khan
>at a concert in Houston, Texas:
>
>"I hope that our music, which requires concentration, patience, &
> perserverance,
These qualities must be awfully hard to attain seeing that
Amjad's music has failed in attaining all three.
Warm regards,
r
Abhik Majumdar
Abhik Majumdar
While I wouldn't dream of considering myself qualified to judge the merits
or
demerits of Khansahib's baaj (and hence prefer not to comment on Dr.
Parrikar's opinion of him), what's important here concerns what he has
*said*.
Khansahib seems to have a very valid point here.
Abhik
------------------------------------------------------------
ch...@sally.nas.nasa.gov
You have probably written the most pathetic posting
in this newsgroup in the last 5 years. Congratulations.
If you will go back and read Rajan's email it is not
directed against anybody. It is history and it is a fact.
Just like it is against the law in Germany to deny Facism
and the holocaust, we cannot wish away the fact that India
has been repeatedly attacted and plundered by Islamic invaders
and the sufferers have been Hindus. It is also very clear
that fundamentally Islam and Christianity are intolerant!
Attempts to cloak them in liberalism is just dishonesty.
About the influence of outsiders on Indian music much debate
has already occured in this newsgroup. The fundamentals of
Indian classical music were well established before the Islamic
invasions. Apart from introducing new elements in singing styles,
presentation techniques and some new ragaas, the heart and soul of
Indian classical music pretty much still remains the same.
chidu...
In article <8p8k4d$3nc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar
>While I wouldn't dream of considering myself qualified to judge the merits
>or
>demerits of Khansahib's baaj (and hence prefer not to comment on Dr.
>Parrikar's opinion of him), what's important here concerns what he has
>*said*.
>Khansahib seems to have a very valid point here.
Amjad's utterance is bullshit. "Peace" can be replaced with
any number of words and it would still be a "valid point."
Bon mots, anybody can issue forth.
Warm regards,
r
Keith Erskine
: k...@fc.hp.com (Keith Erskine) writes:
: >Paraphrasing the words of Amjad Ali Khan
: >at a concert in Houston, Texas:
: >
: >"I hope that our music, which requires concentration, patience, &
: > perserverance,
: These qualities must be awfully hard to attain seeing that
: Amjad's music has failed in attaining all three.
Nonsense. Amjad Ali Khan is a superlative musician. I find no
other sarod player so consistently melodically creative.
: Warm regards,
And warm toasted muffins to you too.
Arnab Chakrabarty
While I would like to refrain from saying anything negative about Ustad
Amjad Ali Khan, I must point out that Keith and Rajanji are operating at
radically different levels of appreciation of sarod music.
While neither of the two gentlemen specialize in sarod music, Shri Rajan
Parrikar's training of vocal music and harmonium are of an order that can
be believed only when seen (or heard). The man lives music (and good
music at that), so to speak. Considering Rajan's musicality, I am hardly
surprised that he, who lives in the world of Kesarbai, BGAK and
Mallikarjun Mansur, finds Amjad Ali Khan's music dry and uninteresting.
On the other hand, Keith has a somewhat valid point too. Amjad Ali Khan's
ease at handling his instrument and his ability, thereby, to extract
melodic variation from the sarod, is immense. This is, however, not
exactly the point of sarod playing wherein, the concepts of rAga vistAr,
bol-bAnt and bAj have also to be considered (and are as important as in
vocal music). The latter three are what most traditional ICM listeners
look for in sitar or sarod playing, and they have been disappointingly
scarce in the music of the aforementioned Ustad in the recent times.
I do not wish to receive any e-mail in response to this post, although a
civil reply and defense on the forum will be welcomed. See ya next month
in Boulder, Keith.
Regards,
A
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Nonsense. Amjad Ali Khan is a superlative musician.
Whatever.
>I find no other sarod player so consistently melodically creative.
Amjad's rAgadAri, the quintessence of Hindustani music, is
utterly mediocre. It matters now a whit that he gets he dings
and dongs right.
Warm regards,
r
ps: Your "find" has been jotted down and the paper thrown away.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Nonsense. Amjad Ali Khan is a superlative musician.
Yes, by American and European standards (afterall, "jhAlA
is for hippies").
Achha, I saw Amjad this morning on TV. It must be conceded
that his kurtA made a bold statement (I wouldn't call the
fabric "superlative" but wouldn't contest it if some
sentimental ladies did). It was an ad for Amul. Amjad does
show promise as a model but he needs to break into a
sweat at the gym and tune those slack tires around the
abs. And perhaps shake a leg at the disco for that groovy
gait found in legendary models.
>I find no
>other sarod player so consistently melodically creative.
You are mixing two different issues here. Let us focus
on consistency for now. Models, like wine, mature with
age. It is to be seen how he evolves as he takes on more
assignments. Will he scale the heights and join the
pantheon of past modeling greats or will he fade down
the maw of the unknown? Far be it from me to crystal
ball-gaze. Let's give his some space, shall we?
Modeling demands concentration (you have focus intently
on your line), patience (the director must bear with your
repeatedly screwing up the line) and perseverance (this
has to do with the viewer). These, incidently, are the same
qualities required for peace in the world.
>Keith Erskine
>I don't speak for HP.
...or for Indian music.
Warm regards from amche su
devd...@my-deja.com
> It's not merely the pettiness going around that anguishes me. I mean,
for
> heaven's sake, this is suppposed to be a forum for *classical music*,
whose
> very ethos lies in rising above such prejudicial thinking. Ustad Abdul
Karim
> Khan singing Gopala Mori Karuna and Pandit Bhaskarbuwa Bakhle singing
> Hazrat
> Khwaja Sangh are only two examples of this. The airing of such
prejudices in
> a
> forum meant for music can only undermine this transcendental quality
of
> classical music, which lend it a unique dignity and nobility.
I agree completely. This is a forum of classical music and at all
cost we should avoid using religion to classify and rate musicians
and using religious texts to bash each other.
When young Yesudas approached a guru for learning music, he was
ridiculed because he was Christian. If it was not for the great souls
of Chembai and Semmangudi there won't be a singer like Yesudas who
brought classical music to common people. Many great singers of
the past were also great souls.
These days in the subcontinent religion is not used for its good
purpose, rather they (politicians) use it for their gain. They do
little for the growth of classical music both in India and Pakistan.
I recently read the story of great singers in Pakistan and their
state of poverty.
Artists like Amjad Ali Khan etc. did contibute in creating an
interest in classical music among the younger generation. They
do represent a secular India. People do like light classsical
singing. Another example of light classical singing is Jasraj.
Many youngters start with listening to light classical music.
I also read a post quoting islamic religious scriptures. Religious
texts are not complete in itself. They do have contradictions.
It is for the wise to interpret it in a useful way.
In any case, bringing religion to classical music can only
make things complicated. What is wrong if Amir Khusro created
Raga Yaman or gave a new life to an existing Raga Kalyan? After
all he lived in the subcontinent and he was a part of the nation.
I read an interesting article which says the word "Yamen" originated
from Hebrew word "Amen". Also many music scales (maqams) used in the
middle-east do have similarities with Indian scales. It is possible
that scales like Yaman existed both in middle-east and India from
ancient times.
-devdas
Rajan P. Parrikar
>In any case, bringing religion to classical music can only
>make things complicated.
I see. Let us, then, toss out all of Shri Thyagaraja's work.
And may any mention of Swami Haridas be banned from school
texts. It is also imperative that all the dhrupads that
have religious sentiment in them be replaced with text from
secular booze-soaked ghAzals.
>What is wrong if Amir Khusro created
>Raga Yaman or gave a new life to an existing Raga Kalyan?
Nothing, IF he indeed created it. Now my turn: have you
stopped beating your wife?
Warm regards,
r
ree...@hotmail.com
At the risk of receiving the disdain and contempt of Mr. Parrikar, let me
say, on the record and on the books, that I like to listen to Amjad Ali
Khan because I like the sound of sarod, the dings and dongs do matter,
Amjad Ali Khan surely has mastered the sarod. However, even I, who has
little critical appreciation of ICM, can see that Amjad Ali Khan has not
mastered the music. He is like the Antonio Vivaldi of Indian Classical
Music - makes all the ragas sound too much alike. I know that is unfair to
Antonio and Amjad as well, they both have their moments, but, in general,
Amjad does seem to run ragas through the same mold; he plugs the same gat
melody lines into many different ragas; raga interpretation by formula.
It's unfortunate his playing has not improved over time. He showed alot of
promise in the late 60s when his playing at least had passion and power -
Mr. S. Prasad's tabla accompianment also helped.
Take care,
Rod
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet for the Web
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Greetings -
>
>At the risk of receiving the disdain and contempt of Mr. Parrikar, let me
>say, on the record and on the books, that I like to listen to Amjad Ali
>Khan because I like the sound of sarod, the dings and dongs do matter,
>Amjad Ali Khan surely has mastered the sarod. However, even I, who has
>little critical appreciation of ICM, can see that Amjad Ali Khan has not
>mastered the music. He is like the Antonio Vivaldi of Indian Classical
>Music - makes all the ragas sound too much alike. I know that is unfair to
>Antonio and Amjad as well, they both have their moments, but, in general,
>Amjad does seem to run ragas through the same mold; he plugs the same gat
>melody lines into many different ragas; raga interpretation by formula.
You seem to be agreeing with me rather vehemently on Amjad.
I have no comment on your comparison of him with the ethnic
musician, Shri Vivaldi.
Ali Akbar (of his prime) is the final word on sarod. Not
only that, he is the most complete Hindustani instrumentalist
in the history of recorded music, having mastered virtually
every department. There have been people with great facility
in one area or the other (for instance, Bismillah's magnificent
talent for swara-smithing) but taken as a whole, the (naked)
Empie comes out tops. And by a long shot. The rAga lives through
him - that is a gift given only a few. The crappers will tell you
that his dara should have been diri and vice-versa: again,
the dings and dongs don't matter. Only rAga does.
Amjad and his kind are triflers.
Warm regards,
r
Abhik Majumdar
>>In any case, bringing religion to classical music can only
>>make things complicated.
>
>I see. Let us, then, toss out all of Shri Thyagaraja's work.
>And may any mention of Swami Haridas be banned from school
>texts. It is also imperative that all the dhrupads that
>have religious sentiment in them be replaced with text from
>secular booze-soaked ghAzals.
Sorry, I beg to differ. In the examples you have given, devotional thoughts
(I
will not use the word "religious here)have influenced music to a
constructive
end, i.e. aesthetic and creative excellence. Which is why members of other
creeds sing and even compose bandishes of this type (e.g. Bade Ghulam Ali
Khansaab's "Mahadev Dev Maheshwar", or even Amir Khusro's "Man ke panchhi"
set
to Todi by Amir Khansaab).
What Devdas surely refers to here is religious ideas being inserted into the
sphere of classical music in a very narrow, chauvinistic manner, with no
constructive end. If at all some end is envisaged, it belongs to the
nebulous
class of "rectifying historical errors and myths"), for which, usually, far
too little evidence is available - either way - to justify a bellicose (or
even emphatic stand. This discussion exemplifies the latter. So far I have
found in it very little of constructive value.
>>What is wrong if Amir Khusro created
>>Raga Yaman or gave a new life to an existing Raga Kalyan?
>
>Nothing, IF he indeed created it. Now my turn: have you
>stopped beating your wife?
My question: How does it matter whether at all Amir Khusro ever had anything
to do with Yaman or not? With the passage of time, in all likelihood the
issue
of Yaman's origin will never be resolved satisfactorily, so I don't see much
point in dwelling on this topic.
The way I feel is, some individual or individuals, whether Muslim, Hindu,
Christian or any other, did deem it fit to individually or collectively
create/develop what has now come to be known as Yaman, and for this kindness
(it's one of my favourite ragas)we ought to feel jolly grateful to
her/him/them, and . . . leave it there.
Regards,
Abhik
PS: "Booze Soaked ghazals" seems like an excessive generalisation,
especially
given Ghazals incorporating not only devotional themes but even devotional
themes of a very pluralistic nature. I know nothing about Ghazals, but I
believe Mir Taqi Mir's "Ulti ho gayi sab tadbeerien" falls in this category.
Could I have some feedback on this please?
------------------------------------------------------------
A.Pavan
>especially
>given Ghazals incorporating not only devotional themes but even devotional
>themes of a very pluralistic nature. I know nothing about Ghazals, but I
>believe Mir Taqi Mir's "Ulti ho gayi sab tadbeerien" falls in this category.
>Could I have some feedback on this please?
The term "booze soaked Ghazals" is rather uncharitable to a poetic and
musical form that spans the entire gamut of emotions and subjects, ranging
from earthly and celestial romance to socio-political themes.
While the classical poets (Mir, Dard, Ghalib, Momin) addressed mostly
romantic love (of the unrequitted kind) and liquor, more contemporary
ones have touched upon a range of subjects (Faiz, Kaifi Azmi, Iqbal etc.).
More later.
Pavan
Richard Harrington
AKTALWAR wrote:
<snip>
> Amir Khusrau, 1253-1325. This was in the early days of Muslim rule. All the
> more reason that the courts built up myths around him. There were not many in
> those courts who knew much about Indian music.
>
> Mr. Chakrabarty, I assure you that I do not consider your statement of 500
> years as a reflection of your erudition or lack of it. I simply looked up one
> of those Hathras books to get the dates which put him about 750 years to 675
> years ago.
>
> Regards
>
> A
It seems there was another individual named Khursau, Umeer Khosro or
Khusru Khan, who lived in Delhi in the mid-1700's.
He was a relative of both Firoz Khan and Na'mat Khan, probably nephew or
brother of one.
This makes claims he invented the sitar (and a lot of other stuff)
rather more palatable.
Willard mentions him as the 'modern' inventor of the sitar in 1834.
The conflation of the two was swift and almost complete, especially in
English; S.M. Tagore (a notorious fabulist if there ever was one) among
others promptly started claiming the sitar was 700 years old.
For further information, check Allyn Miner's book 'Sitar and Sarod in
the 18th and 19th Century'.
Richard Harrington
Eswar Josyula
what is proper inspiration for musical creativity is heavily in question here.
One may or may not link belief in God to creativity, but if God exists, he does
act, by definition. One of the striking features of this thread is that Gulfam
Hassan's sensitivities were touched by statements (made by Rajan Parrikar) and
he reacted. It is these human emotions, sensitivities and feelings that are
vital to the making of music...how can we compartmentalize and ignore them .....
Abhik Majumdar wrote:
> >===== Original Message From Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> =====
>
> >>In any case, bringing religion to classical music can only
> >>make things complicated.
> >
> >I see. Let us, then, toss out all of Shri Thyagaraja's work.
> >And may any mention of Swami Haridas be banned from school
> >texts. It is also imperative that all the dhrupads that
> >have religious sentiment in them be replaced with text from
> >secular booze-soaked ghAzals.
>
> Sorry, I beg to differ. In the examples you have given, devotional thoughts
> (I
> will not use the word "religious here)have influenced music to a
> constructive
> end,
Why not use religious? It seems like you have a bias against the word.
Religiosity is good, irreligiosity is bad. One does not have be ashamed of
being religious. If you like God it is okay to call yourself religious. South
Indian classical music greats, Annamacarya ardent devotee of Lord Venkateswars,
Purandara Dasa devotee of Lord Panduranga Vittala, Thyagaraja devotee of Lord
Rama - never had a doubt what they liked. Their love for God made them act in a
religious manner. In their music they exhibited various kinds of sentiments
which is their relationship with God.
> i.e. aesthetic and creative excellence. Which is why members of other
> creeds sing and even compose bandishes of this type (e.g. Bade Ghulam Ali
> Khansaab's "Mahadev Dev Maheshwar", or even Amir Khusro's "Man ke panchhi"
> set
> to Todi by Amir Khansaab).
That is their artistic freedom in choosing and being inspired by the religion of
their choice.
>
>
> What Devdas surely refers to here is religious ideas being inserted into the
> sphere of classical music in a very narrow, chauvinistic manner, with no
> constructive end.
Who is to decide? That is the freedom one needs to make mistakes, if you will,
and grow.
> If at all some end is envisaged, it belongs to the
> nebulous
> class of "rectifying historical errors and myths"), for which, usually, far
> too little evidence is available - either way - to justify a bellicose (or
> even emphatic stand. This discussion exemplifies the latter. So far I have
> found in it very little of constructive value.
>
> >>What is wrong if Amir Khusro created
> >>Raga Yaman or gave a new life to an existing Raga Kalyan?
> >
> >Nothing, IF he indeed created it. Now my turn: have you
> >stopped beating your wife?
>
> My question: How does it matter whether at all Amir Khusro ever had anything
> to do with Yaman or not? With the passage of time, in all likelihood the
> issue
> of Yaman's origin will never be resolved satisfactorily, so I don't see much
> point in dwelling on this topic.
>
> The way I feel is, some individual or individuals, whether Muslim, Hindu,
> Christian or any other, did deem it fit to individually or collectively
> create/develop what has now come to be known as Yaman, and for this kindness
>
> (it's one of my favourite ragas)we ought to feel jolly grateful to
> her/him/them, and . . . leave it there.
Does God have a role anywhere in you life, in your thinking?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Abhik
>
> PS: "Booze Soaked ghazals" seems like an excessive generalisation,
> especially
The idea, again, is what is it that inspires....
>
> given Ghazals incorporating not only devotional themes but even devotional
> themes of a very pluralistic nature. I know nothing about Ghazals, but I
> believe Mir Taqi Mir's "Ulti ho gayi sab tadbeerien" falls in this category.
> Could I have some feedback on this please?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
Define for yourself what is positive and what is negative. Then it becomes
easy. You will always pick what is positive, naturally.
Regards
Eswar
Rajan P. Parrikar
>My question: How does it matter whether at all Amir Khusro ever had anything
>to do with Yaman or not?
For a student of the history of music, yes, it does matter.
>of Yaman's origin will never be resolved satisfactorily, so I don't see much
>point in dwelling on this topic.
Good for you. But some of us like to question long-held beliefs
especially when no evidence is proferred in support of them.
>PS: "Booze Soaked ghazals" seems like an excessive generalisation,
You have it backwards. It is a very particular case referring to
those gHazals ('gojols,' to bongs) that are booze-soaked.
Warm regards,
r
Keith Erskine
: k...@fc.hp.com (Keith Erskine) wrote:
: > Rajan P. Parrikar (parr...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: > : k...@fc.hp.com (Keith Erskine) writes:
: >
: >
: > : These qualities must be awfully hard to attain seeing that
: > : Amjad's music has failed in attaining all three.
: >
: > Nonsense. Amjad Ali Khan is a superlative musician. I find no
: > other sarod player so consistently melodically creative.
: >
: Amjad Ali Khan, I must point out that Keith and Rajanji are operating at
: radically different levels of appreciation of sarod music.
: While neither of the two gentlemen specialize in sarod music, Shri Rajan
: Parrikar's training of vocal music and harmonium are of an order that can
: be believed only when seen (or heard). The man lives music (and good
: music at that), so to speak. Considering Rajan's musicality,
Well, Arnab, let us not forget that I *DO* play the sarod, for 4 years
now, and I have played and studied Western music for >30 years, playing
concerts, clubs, and studio work well before you were even born.
: I am hardly
: surprised that he, who lives in the world of Kesarbai, BGAK and
: Mallikarjun Mansur, finds Amjad Ali Khan's music dry and uninteresting.
: On the other hand, Keith has a somewhat valid point too. Amjad Ali Khan's
: ease at handling his instrument and his ability, thereby, to extract
: melodic variation from the sarod, is immense. This is, however, not
: exactly the point of sarod playing wherein, the concepts of rAga vistAr,
: bol-bAnt and bAj have also to be considered (and are as important as in
: vocal music). The latter three are what most traditional ICM listeners
: look for in sitar or sarod playing,
I do not believe traditional *listeners* value most bol-bant and sarod baj,
but only traditional *sarodiyas*. In fact, in discussing sarodiyas, one
poster to rec.indian.classical.music stated that they do not appreciate
the sarod style of Pt. Buddhadev dasGupta, precisely because his very
strong emphasis on bol patterns leads to insufficient melodic development
& variation. With all due respect to your guru, Arnab, I must say I agree.
I have several CDs and live recordings of Pt. BdG, and several by Ud.
Amjad Ali Khan. I repeatedly listen to the AAK recordings, which I find
absolutely sublime. The BdG recordings, while I enjoy the speed and
clarity of bol patterns for the fast teental, simply do not appeal to me
on a melodic basis. And is not lyrical, vocal-like melody the heart of
Indian music? Does not raga mean that which pleases?
Your lack of appreciation for AAK contrasts strongly to your previously
stated appreciation of Ud. Vilayat Khan. This is ironic precisely because
of the strong parallels in the styles of Vilayat Khan & Amjad Ali Khan.
Vilayat Khan belabors the fact that he "singlehandedly" brought the
gayaki ang to sitar, as evidenced by his incredible meends, and at
the same time, emphasis on melodic development over bol patterns.
This observation has been reinforced both by Nayan Ghosh, who stated
that the bol-taan intensive style of Pt. Ravi Shankar is almost extinct
now, having supposedly lost out to the gayaki-melodic style of Vilayat
Khan. Similarly, Shahid Parvez claims to represent both the gayaki
style of Vilayat Khan, while at the same time maintaining equal emphasis
on right hand bol patterns, which in essence implies Vilayat Khan's
style does not emphasize traditional bol-patterns, which date all
the way back to the Firozkhani gharana of the 18th century.
So Vilayat Khan is held up as a visionary, a leader, a trend setter,
precisely for his emphasis of gayaki style over bol-bant, and Amjad
Ali Khan, who similarly states his efforts to bring gayaki ang to
the sitar, is dry, uninteresting, boring? And as some know from
my previous postings, I feel Vilayat Khan falls short of the mark
of gayaki virtuosity he claims, because I find the complex meends
he performs, while fascinating from a sitarists perspective for
the difficulty in maintining precise intonation, do NOT flow lyrically
and suit the rasa of the raga nearly as well as do the meends and
ornaments of either Amjad Ali Khan or Nikhil Banerjee, both of
whose meends seem to fit perfectly in the melodic phrase and
raagdari. Vilayat Khan, on the other hand, in my opinion, abruptly
interrupts melodic development to interject a complex meend, which
sounds to me like a meend performed because he can do it, he wants
to show off his meends, rather than an integral component of
sustained melodic continuity.
I'll suggest to you, Arnab, that you grow and mature as a musician,
once complete mastery of sarod has been developed, your fascination
and preoccupation with them will become less strong. Precisely because
once technical mastery has been achieved, one looks forward, to new
challenges, to new facets, new aspects of the vast world of music.
This happened to me at about the age of 25 or so, after some 15 years
of playing guitar. Prior to this I was so enamored of technical
virtuosity, I only appreciated guitarists who played blisteringly fast
lines, a million notes a minute, or played complex, syncopated hard jazz
lines over challenging bebop chord progessions moving at a fast pace.
But after similar feedback from several different parties, including
bandmates, studio session producers, and listeners, I finally realized
I was simply playing *too many notes*. I was so preoccupied with displaying
my technical skills, I neglected to consider whether the complex, fast,
busy lines I was playing suited the music, or whether there was sufficient
contrast in my solos between simple & complex, or whether by starting
out solos with bursts of speed, that it did not allow the solo to
gradually build in intensity, ie, the early speed bursts detracted from
the sustained speed at the climax of the solo.
I am reminded of when Eric Clapton, blues-rock improv guitar hero of the
60's, totally revamped his style, becoming a singer more than guitar
slinger, in fact releasing a recording titled "Slowhand". I was disgusted.
Why doesn't he shred on guitar anymore? I thought he had sold out, or
was too wasted on drugs & alcolhol to play like he used to with Cream or
the Bluesbreakers. It turns out, it was simply a case of been there, done
that, time to do something else, to continue to develop as a musician.
And now, 25 years later, I adore his non-guitar hero albums, Slowhand,
461 Ocean Boulevard, etc. There is virtue in simplicity.
While I will defer to your greater experience in Indian music than my
own, I will maintain that musical aesthetics between Western & Indian
music have far more in common than they differ, and that the vast
majority of the audience, both cogniscenti & neophytes, appreciates rich,
melodic development more than yet another diri-diri-da-ra-da,
diri-diri-da-diri-diri, which appeals primarily to other sarodiyas, who
are so fascinated by "Wow, how does he do that", rather than the audience
at large, which focuses on what has been done rather than how it has been
done. In other words, technique is merely a means to an end, that end
being sublime music. Technique is not and end in itself.
In fact, I'll even conjecture that emphasis on bol-patterns can precisely
inhibit melodic development. Jazz musicians strive to improvise melody
from a purely musical perspective - they strive to play what they hear
in their head, rather than to play guitaristic patterns which fall easily
under the fingers. So when bol-patterns are of paramount importance,
string crossings are dictated by the bol-patterns, and the lines played
become dictated not by pure melodic inspiration, rather than what fits
on the instrument. This is exactly why I find the ekhara taan, the
single jaba stroke per note lines, of Amjad Ali Khan, so wonderful.
They are pure melodic ideas, gayaki idiom, which would sound wonderful
either vocally or instrumentally, and it just so happens that the
music is being produced on the sarod. And if vocal music is really
the heart of Indian music, then the execution of pure melodic ideas,
unconstrained by sarod fingering & bol patterns, are the ultimate
goal of the complete musician.
When it comes to raagdari, I do not have the knowledge of as many
ragas as Arnab or Rajan, I am sure. However, I do know of the recordings
I do have of Amjad Ali Khan, his execution of the ragas I am familiar
with (desh, Bhairav, Zila Kafi, Bageshri) do maintain the raagdari
quite faithfully. Desh is presented with the Sarang-like ascent,
emphasis on natural N, R-komal ni-D-P phrasing, G-RSN-S, and touching
lightly on komal ga in upper register. Bhairav is presented with
classic emphasis & oscillation on da & re, G-m-d, m-P-d-N-S', etc.
Furthermore, let us not forget that gharana to gharana variation upon
chalan, pakad, vadi, and samvadi, nyasa may lead to differences between
musicians as to whether raagdari has been maintained. I know from
email exchanges, Arnab, your version of several ragas, such as
Chandrakauns, Puria Dhanashri, is far different than what I have been
taught. Similarly, Rajan's presentations of features of ragas often
directly conflicts with what I have been taught by my guru.
Anyway, I hope to have not offended by stating candidly my beliefs.
Thanks, Arnab, for discussing this issue lucidly on a musical basis
rather than degenerating to adolescent ridicule of outergarments
as Rajan does so frequently and deplorably. I would greatly welcome
from Rajan or Arnab a point by point discussion of raagdari (or
supposed lack thereof) on specific recordings of Amjad Ali Khan.
And I must state that I am still impressed by the humble, gracious
manner of Amjad Ali Khan, who was so kind as to give me my first
sarod lesson in Houston when I was an absolute beginner with no
knowledge whatsoever. That such a master, such a celebrity, would
give so generously of his time and knowledge I will be forever
grateful.
Arnab Chakrabarty
Erskine. His perception of sarod music at this point is still that of a
rank beginner and that of an outsider, as is made more evident by the
post.
Let me address Shri Erskine's questions, concerns, comments and
contentions point by point.
1. > Well, Arnab, let us not forget that I *DO* play the sarod, for 4
years > now, and I have played and studied Western music for >30 years,
playing > concerts, clubs, and studio work well before you were even
born.
Claim of being a sarodiya and that of having played music for longer than
I have lived - First of all, Shri Erskine's four-year long 'sarod
training' has not been consistent and under the guidance of an able
sarodiya. He has received talIm at very infrequent intervals from all the
three great sarodiyas of our time, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Ustad Amjad Ali
Khan, and Pandit Buddhadev DasGupta. I do not know much about his playing
as to comment on his performance abilities, although sources close to me
who have heard him in the recent times have not commented very favorably.
As for when I was born, it should not really be of concern in this
discussion, for people who have been playing sarod since ages before I
was born (let alone classical guitar), such as Messrs. Ruckert,
Zuckerman, Anindya Banerjee, etc, etc.. have yet to prove that they can
do half of what I can, present a concert in a systemmatic way, with a
steady AlAp, barhat and gradual display of various aspects of sarod baaj.
This is an open challenge - if anyone dares, (s)he can sit on the same
bloody stage with me, play with me, and convince the audience and other
sarodiyas in the congregation of his superiority. Then can (s)he comment
with such authority on my pronounciations as has Shri Erskine. Shri
Erskine has last heard me perform in 1997, playing Ragas Shree and
Shuddha Kalyan in Boulder, and I was in very rusty form because of lack
of riyaaz and my then (adolescent) lack of "patience and perseverance". I
played very badly, thanks also to the extremely bad tabla sangat I had.
From that, Erskine has a right to the opinion he holds, and I will not
deny him that. But, also consider equally sucky performances by some of
my peers published after heavy edits by NAVRAS and others, and you will
see the same features. But, if you hear Amaan, Ayaan or myself today, you
will all see that we have all grown substancially in these three years,
in our own different directions.
Among sarodiyas of my generation (strictly my generation - Y), I respect
Amaan Bangash, Abir Hossain and Abhishek Lahiri a great deal for the
progress they have made in the past three-four years. My progress, on the
other hand, has been in "surges", rather than in a steady way unlike the
other three, because of a heavy academic load and other commitments, and
also serious lack of funds and support. My parents have done all they
can, but there is only so much they could have done to get me all the
stage exposure I needed - they are neither gharAnedAr musicians nor are
they millioniares. Honest to god, there are not very many sarodiyas on
this planet today who will dare to sit next to me on stage and face the
blues. There is a list of exceptions of about ten sarodiyas that I will
name if requested. I consider it disrespectful to name any INDIAN
sarodiya born before 1955 to even name on this list of my superiors, for
they are automatically my "Gurujan", if Shri Erskine knows what that
means.
For the information of all reading this post, Shri Erskine does not
figure in any of these lists. Also, my apologies to all the great
musicians and other knowledgeable (guni) readers whose sentiments I might
hurt tonight, but I am out in the open, publicly defending myself against
slander by an individual ignorant of the nuances of our great musical
traditions, and I beg of you all to forgive any display of arrogance that
might be visible in this post.
2. Keith Erskine's evaluation of a "traditional" audience is rather
misleading, for he has no idea as to what such an audience means, and how
they look out for specific features of the music of each instrument they
listen to. By traditional audience, I do not seek to represent half
trained individuals such as Shri Erskine in such glowing terms, for my
regard for his species is considerably lower. Anyhow, the quality of
audiences even in India has consistently degenerated, although you still
find, in pockets of Mumbai and Calcutta, the people you want to open your
hearts to, musically, and let me reiterate that there are musicians who
open up to only those beautiful people, and not the "alpa vidyA jnan
papI"s like Shri Erskine. They blossom, even in their old age and in a
technically flawed state, in the eyes of these real people, and shine
therein.
3. Melodic variation and development. Shri Erskine really does not seem
to understand our perspectices in rAga vistAr. First of all, the most
important thing about the development of a rAga, is the identification of
a logican sequence of swara movements, and to maintain them throughout a
performance. That, to most musicians, is the essence of rAgadArI. Also,
since Shri Erskine has taken the liberty of commenting on development and
of comparing the performance of Ustad Amjad Ali Khan and Pandit Buddhadev
DasGupta, I would like to state that although Ustad Amjad Ali Khan's
approach to gatkArI is more sedate that of Pandit DasGupta, especially if
one analyzes comparatively their opening sequences, there is no evidence
that proves Amjad Ali Khan Saheb's rAga vistAr to be more comprehensive
than that of Pt. DasGupta, who establishes a very clear picture of the
rAga in the AlAp, which is extremely rich in content, as opposed to the
melodically repetitive expositions of Amjad Ali Khan (coated, of course,
with a degree of gloss). Amjad Ali Khan Saheb's jor is his weakest point,
and is often the place where many important links between the rAga AlAp
and gat are snapped.
Another thing I must bring to Shri Erskine's notice - He has not heard
Buddhadev DasGupta enough to comment in the ways that he does. His
emphasis on bol-bant came at a much later stage in his career, when,
challenged by great tabla masters such as Keramatullah Khan, he decided
to indulge in intellectual battles with them via rhythm! His playing from
the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, are in a slightly different idiom, although
no less captivating that it is today. Also, I will, most rationally
contend that apart from the young Ali Akbar Khan of the 40s, there has
not been a single sarodiya on this planet (including the piping hot
Debasish Bhattacharya) who can claim to have maintained the standards of
speed, intonation, melodiousness, intensity and rAgadArI that Buddhadev
DasGupta has. Come on folks, get a life! You have been treated to very
clear documentation of the performing lives of Amjad Ali Khan and Ali
Akbar Khan, and more than half of you have never heard Buddhadev DasGupta
in his prime! By the way, there are a few upcoming releases by a leading
British label of his semi-primetime playing (from the 80s).
4. Amjad Ali Khan vs. Vilayat Khan vs. BDG. - Ustad Vilayat Khan IS the
pioneer of Gayaki ang on sitar, and what Amjad Ali Khan did was to merely
cut and paste. Shri Erskine should widen his listening of the historic
and important recordings of this century (including those of Amjad Ali)
before commenting like an expert on these. Amjad Ali Khan's brilliant
technique allowed him to transpose VK's legendary sitar baaj on to the
sarod, and I give him credit for having done this. His melodic
imagination, however, is nowhere within sight of VK's, and his musical
thought process in terms of raga development rather discontinuous. This
last observation will perhaps not appeal to someone like Shri Erskine who
dones not have much of a background in rAga sangeet.
Before anyone else, Radhika Mohan Maitra played volcal style alap and
tAns on the sarod in the 50s, and Buddhadev DasGupta took it many steps
forward even before Amjad Ali Khan learnt how to walk. People should
learn to give credit where it is due.
Legendary recordings of RMM that document my contention:
1. SINDHURA, AIR, 1955, with Thirakwa.
2. GARA, 1939, Columbia, with Jnan Babu.
Recordings of Buddhadev DasGupta that will make my point clear to any
intelligent and sensitive listener:
1. Maluha Kedara, Jhinjhoti, 1952, with Jnan Babu, Columbia
2. Bageshree, Jayjayanti, 1965, with Jnan Babu, HMV
3. KafI, 1967, with Shyamal Bose, AIR.
4. Maluha Kedara, 1977, DOVER LANE, with Gobindo Bose
5. Kamod, Chhaya, 1978, with Kishen Maharaj (live at Lala Sridhar's
residence).
> on right hand bol patterns, which in essence implies Vilayat Khan's
> style does not emphasize traditional bol-patterns, which date all
> the way back to the Firozkhani gharana of the 18th century.
Nayan and Shahid are absolutely right about this. The best of both styles
should be retained without doubt. Also, KE has not really heard VK's
toda-ang playing, which is unbelievable. You can hear some reflection of
that in Nayan da, Shahidbhai and Sugato Nag. Also, there is no such thing
as a Firozkhani ghArana. There were two Feroz Khans. RababiyA Feroz Khan
lived in Rampur and taught many sarodiyas including Ghulam Ali. SitariyA
Feroz Khan (Adarang) belonged to the Seniya Gharana, and I do not believe
there are any gharanas named after either. Check your facts, before
engaging in such duels with me, Erskine. You really have no clue about a
lot of things.
5. His Highness Shri Erskine's judgement of my musical aesthetics. -
Musical aesthetics differ greatly in Indian audiences and Western
audiences because a trained Indian ear is looking for something very
different than what a trained Western ear is. Erskine's contention is
void. As for my aesthetics, my Guru and I know more than any TDH what I
look for in music. I have made it very clear that I do not quite share
Shri Erskine's views on melodic development, and would like to add that
while DA DIRI DA DAs are important, we do not compromise on RAgadarI and
vistAr.
6.
> done. In other words, technique is merely a means to an end, that end
> being sublime music. Technique is not and end in itself.
I, Arnab Chakrabarty, do not need a Keith Erskine to tell me that and
neither does Pandit Buddhadev DasGupta or any of his students.
Btw, I would also like to address Erskine's points about "complete
musician" and "complete mastery of sarod". There is no such thing.
7.
> When it comes to raagdari, I do not have the knowledge of as many
> ragas as Arnab or Rajan, I am sure. However, I do know of the recordings
> I do have of Amjad Ali Khan, his execution of the ragas I am familiar
> with (desh, Bhairav, Zila Kafi, Bageshri) do maintain the raagdari
> quite faithfully. Desh is presented with the Sarang-like ascent,
> emphasis on natural N, R-komal ni-D-P phrasing, G-RSN-S, and touching
> lightly on komal ga in upper register. Bhairav is presented with
> classic emphasis & oscillation on da & re, G-m-d, m-P-d-N-S', etc.
> Furthermore, let us not forget that gharana to gharana variation upon
> chalan, pakad, vadi, and samvadi, nyasa may lead to differences between
> musicians as to whether raagdari has been maintained. I know from
> email exchanges, Arnab, your version of several ragas, such as
> Chandrakauns, Puria Dhanashri, is far different than what I have been
> taught. Similarly, Rajan's presentations of features of ragas often
> directly conflicts with what I have been taught by my guru.
Most of my talIm of common rAgas coincide with that of the AtraulI Jaipur
Gharana, in which my respected friend Shri Rajan Parrikar is schooled. If
Mr. Erskine's talIm falls short of these standards, we are not
responsible for that. Also, the musical credibility of Shambhoo Nag
Sopori can not be compared to those of Pt. Ram Ashreya Jha, Pt. Radhika
Mohan Maitra or Pt. Buddhadev DasGupta.
Please note that people rely on Rajan Parrikar for rAga knowledge, not
Keith Erskine or Shambhoo Sopori.
I will, in my next post, discuss the the stark lack of rAgadArI in Amjad
Ali Khan's rendition of Shree (BBC recording) and Bhairav, in which he
constantly uses S r G M, etc, etc.
Once again, I mean business in this message. If, there in any individual
reading this, apart from my respected sarodiya friends, that wants to
challenge my authority as a sarodiya, a sarod historian and analyst of
sarod music, I will take them on on the stage, in the classroom and in
the library.
Rajan P. Parrikar
This is his second unsolicited message. The writer is
advised that any further email to me and he will be
reported to his sysadmin as well as to the appropriate
law-enforcement agencies.
r
Email attached:
From Ferhan Qureshi Tue Sep 12 18:58:35 2000
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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:58:35 -0700
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Add Addresses
Do ever shut the fuck up?????
I mean seriously...You are a fool for the bullshit that spews from
you're stinkin mouth.....Do you think you are the authority on music,
religion politics and anything everyone comments on? I could give a rats
ass about how much theory and history you know, because you have no clue
about the true meaning of music. Your a god-damn racsist and a fuckin
bigot. Dare and insult Jinaah, our Quaid -I-Azam again and I swear If I
ever find you you'll be apologizing quite quickly and begging Allah for
forgivness.
Music is one of the few fronts where mahshallah, hindus and muslims
still are able to get along. It's great to see there are idiots like you
out there who are trying to ruin this as well. Keep up the good work
buddy. Warm regards to you as well you fuckin
fool. I beg you to send me you're adress. I'd love to come find you. We
can discuss Jinnah and Muslims over a hot cup of chai. Burn in Hell.
Warmest, hottest, scorching regards,
Ferhan Qureshi
gulfam...@my-deja.com
See how your black deeds have caught up with you. I knew something like
this would happen. Its sad to see how angry you make people by your
putrid comments. The posting below is a classic example how your
comments create anger among people and are an ignition for further
divisions among the bhai chaaraa of hindus and muslims. With your so
called knowledge you should be cutting boundaries not creating them.
It was great souls like Pandit bhatkande, Nawab Ali Khan, Khansahib
Bundoo Khan, Acharya Brahspati and Pandit Ratajankar who saw no
divisions between Hindus-muslims but you are the opposite. You probably
have no "ilm" whatsoever and just quote from the countless textbooks
which you have bought or stolen from the local junk shop. Its
surprising to see how a person who plays a besuraa toy known as
"harmonium" can deem himself as an authority on music. I can only
imagine the crude sounds coming from your untuned harmonium....
Uuff.... See how it feels like to be criticised.
Remember as Raj Kumar has said in countless hindi films
"Jaani....jin kay.... ghar sheeshay kay hotay hain........ Woh dusron
pay pathar naheen phainkaa kartay...... nahin phainkaa kartay.....
nahin phainkaa kartay".(full stops intended)
Allah aap ko aqal day. Aameen.
Warmest, sunny, sweaty, smelly regards from Sahara Desert....
Gulfam Hassan
In article <8pn23r$27...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Balwant N Dixit
many occasions I have had conversations with musicians who have been recognized
by many as "very highly accomplished." At least some of them have on occasions
talked about their "greatness" in a boastful manner. I also have had many
opportunities to listen and interact with many very young musicians who have
just started their performance career, and have been recognized by other
musicians, and by lay listeners, as giving "creditable" performances. But I
have yet to come across any musician, so young and so outlandishly boastful of
his accomplishments as "this sarod player par excellence", Shree Arnab
Chakrabarty. Over these years, I have heard many sarod players, live as well
as through their recordings, which include Hafiz Ahmed (Amjad Ali Khan's
father), Allauddin Khan (Ali Akbar Khan's father), Ali Akbar Khan, Amjad Ali
Khan, Radhika Mohan Mitra, Buddhdev DasGupta, Zarin Daruvala, Sharan Rani
Mathur, Damodar Lal Kabra of Jaipur, Ashish Khan, Tejendra Majumdar, Partho
Sarathy, Brij Narayan, and several others. But none of them can match Shree
Arnab Chakrabarty's style and creativity in "self aggrandizement." Although I
have not had an opportunity, of either meeting Arnab in person or of hearing
him perform "live", I did hear him accompany Shree Ramdas Palsule, a tabla
player, with a "lehra" on Stanford Radio broadcast a few weeks ago, which was
followed by Ramdas Palsule, the tabla player, accompanying Arnab Chakrabarty,
the sarod player. From that short "listening experience" I must conclude that
the Arnab Chakrabarty who played sarod on Stanford Radio must be a totally
different person than the one who writes so "humbly" about his accomplishments
as a "sarod player par excellence." The Indian classical music is an age old
tradition and it has place for every kind of musician. Thank god that I am not
one of them. .......Balwant Dixit
Rajan P. Parrikar
You are a phony, cut from the same cloth as
the Paki hoodlum you empathize with. Your
Gandhian cloak fools no one.
Warm regards,
r
gulfam...@my-deja.com writes:
Rajan P. Parrikar
>same way Arnab has insulted the masters of sarod (remember his recent
>posting about how Ali Akbar Khan's jhala "sucked"?).
Dear Shri Erskine,
I did not agree with Arnab's assessment of that particular
rendition but it is alright for someone to not like Mr Khan's
jhAlA and say it sucked without prior clearance from the
San Rafael ragtag and bobtail bounders.
> I have great respect <rest deleted>
Translation: I am deluded and conceited enough to think that
my "great respect" counts.
>and ad hominem attacks, and thus will not engage in further discussions
>with Arnab or Rajan when they insult great masters of ICM.
Gee, what piety and devotion to the "great masters"!
I'm shattered to hear that you don't be engaging us anymore.
The opportunity to flame your piddle posts was one of life's
last surviving small pleasures.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>It is also curious that now Rajan Parrikar is an esteemed authority,
>yet when he insulted Pt. Buddhadev dasGupta, we were flooded with messages
>from Arnab as to Rajan's second rate talim, his knowing only books and not
>music, etc. etc. etc. Rajan has insulted almost every prominent ICM
>musician alive, which inevitably causes hard feelings and flame wars.
>I will not again fall prey to Rajan's flame bait.
Dear Shri Erskine,
Rest assured that tributes or brickbats regarding my
knowledge or musical ability have no effect on me
whatsoever. This info may help you and others conserve
precious metabolic energy and spare the pea-brains the
enormous strain impressed whenever they attempt their
impotent, zero-watt flamelets.
Warm regards,
r
ps: A factual error in Arnab's post - I have no tAleem
from Atrauli-Jaipur. Although the samskArAs of that
school have seeped into me from a very young age.
Keith Erskine
: This is my response to the rather uneducated remarks posted by Shri Keith
: Erskine. His perception of sarod music at this point is still that of a
: rank beginner and that of an outsider, as is made more evident by the
: post.
I'm sorry to see ad hominem attacks by Arnab in lieu of a reasoned
response. I'm not going to bother with this discussion, other than:
: Erskine has last heard me perform in 1997, playing Ragas Shree and
: Shuddha Kalyan in Boulder, and I was in very rusty form because of lack
: of riyaaz and my then (adolescent) lack of "patience and perseverance". I
: played very badly,
Yes you were bad in 97, and equally bad again in 98. If you lacked
riyaz, you should not have solicited concert appearances. Every raga was
fraught with badly misfingered missed notes, besura more often than not,
badly missed tihais, and utter lack of melodic creativity or beauty.
A total of 8 people, only 5 paying attendees, attended Arnab's 2nd concert
in Boulder, for good reason. Every educated ICM listener I spoke with
had nothing good to say about his performance.
: Honest to god, there are not very many sarodiyas on
: this planet today who will dare to sit next to me on stage and face the
: blues.
: Once again, I mean business in this message. If, there in any individual
: reading this, apart from my respected sarodiya friends, that wants to
: challenge my authority as a sarodiya, a sarod historian and analyst of
: sarod music, I will take them on on the stage, in the classroom and in
: the library.
Again your egotism overwhelms, Arnab. Your perception of your abilities
are far, far out of line with reality.
It is also curious that now Rajan Parrikar is an esteemed authority,
yet when he insulted Pt. Buddhadev dasGupta, we were flooded with messages
from Arnab as to Rajan's second rate talim, his knowing only books and not
music, etc. etc. etc. Rajan has insulted almost every prominent ICM
musician alive, which inevitably causes hard feelings and flame wars.
I will not again fall prey to Rajan's flame bait.
I'm sorry to have offended Arnab by stating I am not especially fond of
*some aspects* of the playing style of his guru, but that is my opinion,
and my right to state it. I did NOT insult Pt. dasGupta in nearly the
same way Arnab has insulted the masters of sarod (remember his recent
posting about how Ali Akbar Khan's jhala "sucked"?). I have great respect
for Pt. dasGupta and his music, he is one of the greatest sarodiyas alive,
what he does he does extremely well. I simply stated a personal preference
for the approach of Amjad Ali Khan. I strongly believe music should be
about spreading happiness and beauty, not petty competitiveness, slander,
and ad hominem attacks, and thus will not engage in further discussions
with Arnab or Rajan when they insult great masters of ICM.
Keith Erskine
sanjoy.biswas
gang ;)
Pray tell us Mr. Chakrabarty, given that you're undeniably THE
arbiter of "good taste" on this newsgroup, I'm dying to know who
made _your_ top-ten best list amongst the sarodiyas in ICM?
I have to plead ignorance in not being familiar with the current
crop of players outside of yourself and the Bangash Brothers,
etc., so your guidance will help me expand my collection of
music, assuming the respective CDs and tapes are available
Stateside.
At present I only own recordings by Baba Allaudin Khan, Ali
Akbar Khan, Buddhadev Dasgupta, Bahadur Khan, Amjad Ali
Khan & Sons (along with the Great Lineage featuring Hafiz
Ali Khan), Aashish Khan, Tejendra Narayan Majumdar,
Wajahat Khan, & Brij Narayan. Would really like to get my
hands on some recordings by Radhika Mohan Moitra! Know of
any online retailers that stock his materials?
Thanks for your time,
S. Biswas
Arnab Chakrabarty <achakr...@hampshire.edu> wrote in message
news:8pmr2s$8jo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
naniwadekar
Arnab Chakrabarty <achakr...@hampshire.edu> wrote:
> This is my response to the rather uneducated remarks posted by Shri
> Keith > Erskine. His perception of sarod music at this point is still
I am sure everybody who has read the posting by Arnab Chakrabarty will
be reeling from it. This boastfulness will be unbecoming even in
masters like Lata, Ali Akbar Khan or Moghubai Kurdikar.
However, given that he was just an "adolescent" in 1997, by his own
admission, let us all stop flogging him. And believe that it was just a
bad dream. Of course, if he is 1/100 th as arrogant as his email
suggests, all our appeals and denunciations will be in vain. I have
already appealed to him privately over email that he should think
calmly about it. He has not grown up much between 1997 and Sept 2000.
But let us give him a chance. What else can you do when faced with such
hubris? Even Vilayat Khan and Amjad Ali, the crafty fellows, will blush
on reading this.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Warmest, sunny, sweaty, smelly regards from Sahara Desert....
>Gulfam Hassan
Gullu,
Give your thinking organ a break now. It has had one
too many erections in the past couple of days. Your
presence in the Sahara Desert brings to mind the old
joke:
Q: Why are camels called the Ships of the Desert?
A: Because they are full of Arab semen.
Warm regards,
r
ferhan...@my-deja.com
message personally was so that I didn't insult anyone uneccesarily on
the forum...This is meant to discuss music, not to express you're
racsist bigoted views on religion and politics. Anyway my apologies to
any of you who are insulted by my foul language. Sometimes we are forced
to stoop down to the level of those insulting us in order to get our
point across. I really hope I am not the only one offended by these
messages. This kind of foolish unnecassary garbage talk does not benifit
the understanding of Hindustani music or help the already troubled
relationship between Hindus and Muslims.
By the way I have asked you more than once to refrain from writing
insulting rascist comments, concernig my nationality, religion and my
countries father..... I will repeat myself again. You are only digging
yourself deeper in a hole. I don't think you need any more enemies.
Warmenst regards,
Ferhan Qureshi
ferhan...@my-deja.com
this to some of them. In fact some of them would like to pay you a
visit to congradulate you on you're sense of humor. Do tell us where you
reside. We should get together and hang out. We would love to sit down
and discuss this and some of you're other views like men face to
face........ Keep on making more enemies!!!!!!!!
In article <8pq41j$1c...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Raghu Seshadri
: By the way I have asked you more than once to refrain from writing
: insulting rascist comments, concernig my nationality, religion and my
: countries father..... I will repeat myself again. You are only digging
: yourself deeper in a hole. I don't think you need any more enemies.
Can you cite the post that you claim contains
racist comments concerning your nationality or
religion or your country's father ? If not, the rest of
us would be justified in thinking that you
just make things up.
RS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
(My countries fore-father)-Concerning our Quid-I-Azam Mohhammed Ali
Jinnah my good friend Rajan Parrikar reffered to him as" the
hate-mongering Jinnah, renowned for his fondness for whiskey, pork and
pussy, who was responsible for partition and the spillage of untold
pints of blood"
Thread Raag Question: Message 24 of 28 posted on 9/8/00
(My religion)- Rajan Worte-" There is of course a large body of work for
which we may unambiguously point to the Islamic influence: mass
slaughter, plunder and rape, destruction of thousands of Hindu and
Buddhist temples, universities and so on. While the TOWELHEADS are not,
have never been, our equals in music we must duly acknowledge their
respectable record and achievments in the areas just outlined."
Thread Raag question: message 4 of 28 posted on 9/5/00
(my nationality) -Rajan wrote- " you are phony ,cut from the same cloth
as the PAKI HOODLUM you empathize with"
Thread: RE:Raag Question message 7 of 11
Did you not see these postings?? I really wouldn't waste my time making
things like this up that I consider of a very serious nature. If you
need more examples I would be happy to direct you to other offensive,
bigoted, rascist views posted by Rajan which have insulted numerous fans
of classical music including myself. His joke about camels and arabs
must have slipped you're attention as well. Pay closer attention to the
postings, once again I wouldn't waste my time making up these kind of
accusations.
Warmest regards.
Ferhan
In article <39c10fa2$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
Surinder P. Singh
Arnab Chakrabarty wrote in message <8p90u1$k4n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Greetings.
> [...snip...]
> Now for some socio-political discourse. It is difficult to measure and
>compare the musical contribution of either community (Hindu and Muslim)
>in this long, rather sparsely documented history of ICM. First of all,
>the Muslims came at a fairly late yet dynamic stage of the evolution of
>this music, and it is not unreasonable to believe that they elevated the
>performance practice to standards hitherto unprecedented. The
>conservatory-style riyaaz that most practitioners of this art have
For a newcomer, what is this conservatory-style riyaz?
>subjected themselves to, for the past 100-150 years, is definitely a
>gift of the Muslim artistes. Where were we, the Hindus, in the early
>19th century when our boys were forbidden from going anywhere near a
> [...snip...]
Raghu Seshadri
: I'd be happy to cite a few examples.......
:
: (My countries fore-father)-Concerning our Quid-I-Azam Mohhammed Ali
: Jinnah my good friend Rajan Parrikar reffered to him as" the
: hate-mongering Jinnah, renowned for his fondness for whiskey, pork and
: pussy, who was responsible for partition and the spillage of untold
: pints of blood"
Thanks for your citations. Now I ask seriously,
which of those adjectives don't apply to Mr Jinnah ?
If your point is that nothing should
be said that is unpleasant and irrelevant to
music, you'd have a point. Is that your point ?
If someone called Gandhi a lentil-eating goatmilk drinking
ahimsa talking bald head who was responsible for
millions of Indians wasting time with charkhas,
I'd politely point out that he is correct but
this has no relevance to rmic.
: (My religion)- Rajan Worte-" There is of course a large body of work for
: which we may unambiguously point to the Islamic influence: mass
: slaughter, plunder and rape, destruction of thousands of Hindu and
: Buddhist temples, universities and so on. While the TOWELHEADS are not,
: have never been, our equals in music we must duly acknowledge their
: respectable record and achievments in the areas just outlined."
: Thread Raag question: message 4 of 28 posted on 9/5/00
I hope you don't think this is a quibble,
but descriptions of the followers of Islam is
not the same as description of Islam, right ?
The above says nothing about Islam, it says
quite a bit about islamic invaders - 2 different
things. Ergo it is not about your religion.
: (my nationality) -Rajan wrote- " you are phony ,cut from the same cloth
: as the PAKI HOODLUM you empathize with"
: Thread: RE:Raag Question message 7 of 11
Again, while this is uncomplimentary to you
personally, it is not true that ALL Pakistanis
are being called hoodlum. So it is not against
your nationality at all, anymore than calling
Gandhi a 'half naked fakir' is an insult to
all fakirs.
: Did you not see these postings?? I really wouldn't waste my time making
: things like this up that I consider of a very serious nature. If you
: need more examples I would be happy to direct you to other offensive,
: bigoted, rascist views posted by Rajan which have insulted numerous fans
: of classical music including myself. His joke about camels and arabs
: must have slipped you're attention as well. Pay closer attention to the
: postings, once again I wouldn't waste my time making up these kind of
: accusations.
I am sure you wouldn't, but as I have noted,
you have hastily drawn conclusions that are not
warranted. Neither your religion nor your
nationality has been maligned. Your country's
father, yes you are right there, but again it is
not clear if there is any adjective that was
not deserved.
With this misunderstanding cleared up, I hope
we can all get back to the primary purpose of
this ng, music.
Yours,
RS
Surinder P. Singh
this true? Is, Kaafi and important Raag in Indian classical music?
-SS
AKTALWAR wrote in message <20000907132538...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
>Bagchee agrees with Rajan (NAD, 1998, p285) on Kalyan and Yaman.
>
>Amir Khusro was a very talented man. He had a Persian father and a Hindu
>mother. He was born in India, where he grew up. His mother tongue was Hindi
>(then Hindui or Hindvi) but he wrote poetry in both Hindi and Persian. He
held
>a unique position in the courts of early muslim invaders/rulers (Balban,
Khilji
>and Tughlak) as an Indian who was proficient in Persian and a great
musician
>and poet. He was not only proud of Indian music as being the best in the
world
>(in his opinion) but he also held a high opinion of himself. He wrote that
>"India is the greatest not only because.......but also because she has a
>musician and poet of my calibre". (My source for this, Sangeet Chintamani,
>Sangeet Karyalay, Hathras, UP, 1989, p252)
>
>His enthusiastic admirers in his time as well as in recent times have
credited
>him with things he hid but also with things he did not do.
Surinder P. Singh
dhoodh, pani ka pani). Excellent point. Furthermore, one side Mr. Gulfam and
Mr. Ferhan wish to deny the "rape, loot and plunder" but at the same time
want to make a point by calling his opponents as products of a rape that you
wish to deny in the first place. Either you are a descendent of a raping
culture/relegion/ethnicity/group and we (Indian Kafirs) are products of that
rape, or you should deny the rape in the first place. You can't have it both
ways.
-SS
Raghu Seshadri wrote in message <39b9219f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>...
>gulfam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>: Shri Parrikar, with your extensive knowledge on the topic of Islamic
>: influences such as "rape, loot and plunder", would you admit that with
>: so much raping going in those days that you are an illigetimate product
>: resulted from the raping of your mother by a muslim invader...
>
>It is just awful that you'd make demeaning
>remarks about someone's mother as an argumentation
>technique. Isn't mother a sacred icon for all
>subcontinental cultures ?
>
>: please give credit where it is due, it's nazi specimens like you who
>: have been primarily responsible for the break up of undivided India and
>: causing tensions between muslims and hindus. I cannot believe that you
>
>I don't get this at all. Someone who proposes killing
>off all members of a community can be called a nazi;
>not someone who just recalls that in the past,
>certain invaders did horrible things. If so, all
>historians who write about the Viking invasion of
>England, or the massacre of aborigines in Australia
>would have to be called nazis. This is nonsense.
>
>: I am surprised that others don't have any guts to criticise your racist
>: views.
>
>Please explain why it is racist to say that
>(for instance) Aurangzeb beheaded Sambhaji,
>or that Guru Angad was tortured by the moguls,
>or indeed for that matter, that Eric the Red
>menaced the coastline of Normandy.
>
>RS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : I'd be happy to cite a few examples.......
> :
> : (My countries fore-father)-Concerning our Quid-I-Azam Mohhammed Ali
> : Jinnah my good friend Rajan Parrikar reffered to him as" the
> : hate-mongering Jinnah, renowned for his fondness for whiskey, pork
and
> : pussy, who was responsible for partition and the spillage of untold
> : pints of blood"
>
> Thanks for your citations. Now I ask seriously,
> which of those adjectives don't apply to Mr Jinnah ?
>
> If your point is that nothing should
> be said that is unpleasant and irrelevant to
> music, you'd have a point. Is that your point ?
>
> If someone called Gandhi a lentil-eating goatmilk drinking
> ahimsa talking bald head who was responsible for
> millions of Indians wasting time with charkhas,
> I'd politely point out that he is correct but
> this has no relevance to rmic.
>
comments on a page devoted to classical music talk certainly deserves a
scolding. Especially when it is done with the intenntion of offending
people.... Also I disagree w/ the terms used to describe Jinnah, as
there are better ways to cite ones views on a leader who is revered and
honored by millions for the sacrificies he made in founding an
absolutely necessary homeland for the muslims on the sub-continent. I
won't comment on you're thoughts about Gandhi as I really would like to
avoid insulting anyone's hero or mentor. I would use my discretion in
voicing my opinion, and if I was to post my problems w/ Ghandhi's
philosophy and practices I would try to do it in a respectful manner,
not at all like Rajan has done or as you have suggested in you're
comments about him. No one's perfect, not Gandhi, not Jinnah, not even
Rajan. This doesn't mean that we need to malign them with the intent of
offending them or there followers.
> : (My religion)- Rajan Worte-" There is of course a large body of work
for
> : which we may unambiguously point to the Islamic influence: mass
> : slaughter, plunder and rape, destruction of thousands of Hindu and
> : Buddhist temples, universities and so on. While the TOWELHEADS are
not,
> : have never been, our equals in music we must duly acknowledge their
> : respectable record and achievments in the areas just outlined."
> : Thread Raag question: message 4 of 28 posted on 9/5/00
>
> I hope you don't think this is a quibble,
> but descriptions of the followers of Islam is
> not the same as description of Islam, right ?
> The above says nothing about Islam, it says
> quite a bit about islamic invaders - 2 different
> things. Ergo it is not about your religion.
>
Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and whoever have all indulged in unacceptable
behavior in their conquests and policies on the Indian/Pakistani
subcontinent. I'll also point out that muslims have made immense
contributions to the culture, (including music), among many other
factors on the subcontinent. Calling us towelheads is a horrible way of
reffereing to us. This is mostly what I object to. There are countless
racial slurs used to describe
hindus as well but I would never use them and post them on a page as
this is childish and unacceptable. I could spend days writting about the
attrocities commited by Hindus against muslims but this would be better
suited to a page devoted to politics rather than music.
Also Rajan has stated that muslims are not and never have been
our(hindus) equal in music. This is absolute rubbish. More importantly ,
classical music is not about competition between hindus and muslims. We
all know( I hope) that both hindu's and muslims have made contributions
towards shaping the presentation and theory of Hindustani music. This
"us against them" attitude is ridiculous and foolish. You can not
honestly tell me that Muslims have not achieved the same status as
hindus in the practice and performance of Hindustani music. If you would
like I could send you a list of at least fifty Muslim musicians ( both
in the past and present who have reached the highest level of excellence
in the performance of Classical music. I'm sure I dont need me to do
that. Just check you're CD collection. I'm sure you will find a few.
> : (my nationality) -Rajan wrote- " you are phony ,cut from the same
cloth
> : as the PAKI HOODLUM you empathize with"
> : Thread: RE:Raag Question message 7 of 11
>
> Again, while this is uncomplimentary to you
> personally, it is not true that ALL Pakistanis
> are being called hoodlum. So it is not against
> your nationality at all, anymore than calling
> Gandhi a 'half naked fakir' is an insult to
> all fakirs.
Anytime the term Paki is used in this manner it is an insult to all
Pakistani's wheter the slur is directed at them or not. I'll state once
again I could easily resort to hundreds of religious and ethnic slurs
used to describe Indians and Hindus also, but it is not in my nature to
do so.. That is childish, a waste of time, and outright dispicable. Once
again you are bringing up disrepectful terms to describe Gandhi. This is
a surprise to me..... I am no fan of his at all, however I would not
publicly insult him to make a point about music.
>
> : Did you not see these postings?? I really wouldn't waste my time
making
> : things like this up that I consider of a very serious nature. If you
> : need more examples I would be happy to direct you to other
offensive,
> : bigoted, rascist views posted by Rajan which have insulted numerous
fans
> : of classical music including myself. His joke about camels and arabs
> : must have slipped you're attention as well. Pay closer attention to
the
> : postings, once again I wouldn't waste my time making up these kind
of
> : accusations.
>
> I am sure you wouldn't, but as I have noted,
> you have hastily drawn conclusions that are not
> warranted. Neither your religion nor your
> nationality has been maligned. Your country's
> father, yes you are right there, but again it is
> not clear if there is any adjective that was
> not deserved.
>
> With this misunderstanding cleared up, I hope
> we can all get back to the primary purpose of
> this ng, music.
Please I hope so.... It's unfortunate that this has happened . I hate
making enemies especially concerning music. I'm really curious as to why
you are defending his comments. If you agree with his comments or the
way he voices his opinion I am truly sorry for you. I don't discriminate
based on religion, nationality, or race and it is unfortunate that
people
still do in this day and age. If you feel this way there is no need to
post it on a forum dedicated to music. I am a Muslim and A Pakistani.
Some of my closest friends and those I practice classical music with are
Hindus and Indians, My Ustad is a Sardar, and I am proud of all these
things. I've stated before, that muslims and hindus have so many
problems in other areas, I always felt that music was one issue in which
we could get along like brothers. It upsets me that there are people out
there who are still thinking in these backwards ways.
Rajan is an outright bigot and racsist and it sickins me that a person
who considers themselves such an educated authority on history and
theory of classical music is such a fool when it comes down to the real
issues. He knows nothing of the true meaning of music and it's benifits
as long as he insults and speaks as he does. I would suggest that he
takes a break from his theory and history knowledge accumulation, and
get some taleem from someone who can teach him about
respect, tolerance, open-mindness, and acceptance....some of the most
essential qualities of a true musician.
Hope this clears things up
Ferhan Qureshi >
> Yours,
> RS
devd...@my-deja.com
> If your point is that nothing should
> be said that is unpleasant and irrelevant to
> music, you'd have a point. Is that your point ?
>
> If someone called Gandhi a lentil-eating goatmilk drinking
> ahimsa talking bald head who was responsible for
> millions of Indians wasting time with charkhas,
> I'd politely point out that he is correct but
> this has no relevance to rmic.
Yes, such topics are of no relevance to rmic. so also the
language used here by some people. Unfortunately this
is what you, your friends, those who respond
violently, and those who respond non-violently yet wickedly
and cunnigly are doing here. I find no difference between
the two styles. Both belong to the same class, with the
same aim. Just that their methods are different.
Keep in mind that Indian classical music is also the music
of Pakistan, Afganisthan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
It is natural to see people from these countries here.
So please do not post here topics relating to past history
of invasion, partition, fundamentalist politics in India
and our neighbours.
Now Raghu, Since you mentioned Gandhi, regarding your
description of Gandhi, still there are people who would
disagree with you. Gandhi was a threat to religious fundamentalism.
That is why a fundamentalist killed him. It may not matter
for you and your frieds to describe Gandhi in a specific way.
But for others it does matter. Any way why bring Gandhi here?
Jinnah received western education like our Nehru. So it is
possible that he was Western in his lifestyle and eating
habits. Why discuss his preference of food especially when
we know clearly that abstaining from pork is a part of life
of some Indians?
May be I am old fashioned and some of the post-modern people
here may not like my approach towards making rmic a better,
safer place. My apologies for adding one more message to
this thread.
devdas
ferhan...@my-deja.com
not have posted that kind of message on the forum. It was a private
message intended for the recipients reading only. I never publicly got
involved in this argument until my message was posted on the forum w/out
my consent or intent. I didn't publicly want to be a part of this, I
only wished to defend issues very sensitive to me in private to those
who choose to broadcast their inflamatory views on the forum.
Ferhan
gulfam...@my-deja.com
Parrot Reeker
Thanks for your comments about my "organ". Your depravity is finally
beginning to show. Freud would have been proud to have you as one his
subjects...
Now can I make a deductions about your "organ"? It is so minute that
even techniques such as electron diffraction and crystallography can't
dedect it... It is there... but somewhere.... I would term it as the
"eighth wonder of the world"...
Aik to humray paas Taaj mahal hai aur ab doosra,.... Parrikar ka
bemisal organ!!!! For further viewing please bring in some electron
microscopes, monocles, telescopes......Parrot bhai you probably got
your doctrate by writing a thesis on the subject of the "organ"....
No wonder you sign off by saying warm regards, we all know where the
"warmth" is coming from!!!!
Happy playing on your organ.....
Gullu
In article <8pq41j$1c...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gulfam...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >Warmest, sunny, sweaty, smelly regards from Sahara Desert....
> >Gulfam Hassan
>
> Gullu,
>
> Give your thinking organ a break now. It has had one
> too many erections in the past couple of days. Your
> presence in the Sahara Desert brings to mind the old
> joke:
>
> Q: Why are camels called the Ships of the Desert?
> A: Because they are full of Arab semen.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> r
>
>
Surinder P. Singh
>In article <39c12405$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
> sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> : I'd be happy to cite a few examples.......
>Once again Rajan put this in the most inflammatory way possible.
>Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and whoever have all indulged in unacceptable
>behavior in their conquests and policies on the Indian/Pakistani
>subcontinent.
No one, other than Muslims, indulged in forced conversions.
>I'll also point out that muslims have made immense
>contributions to the culture, (including music), among many other
>factors on the subcontinent. Calling us towelheads is a horrible way of
>reffereing to us. This is mostly what I object to. There are countless
I cannot speak for anyone, but I understand "Towelhead" to refer to Arabs
specifically and other Muslim invaders from the west, not to the Indian
Muslims (except those who claim ancestory from them, which I found are
many). While it is impossible to logically argue about music quality, it may
be safetly stated that music from Muslim civilizations like Arabia, Persia,
and others are no match to Indian classical music. If you actually think
that this opinion is wrong, then please go ahead and tell us that. Now,
Muslims in India have learnt and contributed to India music, but the bottom
line is this Music system is inherently Hindu and inherenty Indian. This
system and Raagas and everything is essentially very very old. The Indian
classical music is no more Muslim than the Semiconductor industry is Indian.
Correct me if I am wrong, doesn't Islam prohibit indulgence in Music?
>Also Rajan has stated that muslims are not and never have been
>our(hindus) equal in music. This is absolute rubbish. More importantly ,
>classical music is not about competition between hindus and muslims. We
>all know( I hope) that both hindu's and muslims have made contributions
>towards shaping the presentation and theory of Hindustani music. This
>"us against them" attitude is ridiculous and foolish. You can not
You first claim that "us versus them" is not good. Then you claim that
Muslim ("us") are actually great in Music. Shouldn't you follow your own
advice?
Surinder P. Singh
devd...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8prdoq$mng$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
>Keep in mind that Indian classical music is also the music
>of Pakistan, Afganisthan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
I didn't know that Indian music is also the music of Afghanistan. Are you
sure of that?
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Exactly this has no relevance to music....
Mullah, post something that has relevance to music.
Your contribution on music to this group is thus far
exactly ZERO.
>however posting inflammatory
>comments on a page devoted to classical music talk certainly deserves a
>scolding.
Mullah hoodlums like you who have never added to any musical
discussion here don't get to decide what is and what is
not appropriate. Hint: this space is not the property of
the terrorist, trash Paki state.
Warm regards,
r
Ajay P Nerurkar
: I'll also point out that muslims have made immense
: contributions to the culture, (including music)
Most people will agree with what you have stated above.
:Calling us towelheads is a horrible way of
: reffereing to us. This is mostly what I object to.
However, this comment betrays a confusion between Muslim citizens of the
sub-continent and non-local followers of the Islamic faith. But you are
not alone in this. Many in Pakiland must share this less than clear picture.
Why else would they celebrate the pillage of their erstwhile motherland by
naming a missile after Muhammad Ghori ? Those who cannot remember the past
are condemned to repeat it.
Ajay
ferhan...@my-deja.com
"Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8prd2e$lt8
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <39c12405$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
> > sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
> >> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> : I'd be happy to cite a few examples.......
>
> >Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and whoever have all indulged in unacceptable
> >behavior in their conquests and policies on the Indian/Pakistani
> >subcontinent.
>
Forced conversions aren't the only atrocities commited by religious and
ethnic groups on the subcontinent. If you'd like I'd be happy to send
you a personal email citing several other atrocities aside from
conversions commited by hindus, muslims and sikhs alike, but if you
really think hard and look in the history books you'll be able to
discover this on your own. Please see any chapter labeled "Partition",
read it thouroughly and reconsider you're remark. Or perhaps do you
recall what happened at Babri Masjid.....etc., etc.
>
> >I'll also point out that muslims have made immense
> >contributions to the culture, (including music), among many other
> >factors on the subcontinent. Calling us towelheads is a horrible way
of
> >reffereing to us. This is mostly what I object to. There are
countless
>
> I cannot speak for anyone, but I understand "Towelhead" to refer to
Arabs
> specifically and other Muslim invaders from the west, not to the
Indian
> Muslims (except those who claim ancestory from them, which I found are
> many). While it is impossible to logically argue about music quality,
it may
> be safetly stated that music from Muslim civilizations like Arabia,
Persia,
> and others are no match to Indian classical music. If you actually
think
> that this opinion is wrong, then please go ahead and tell us that.
Now,
> Muslims in India have learnt and contributed to India music, but the
bottom
> line is this Music system is inherently Hindu and inherenty Indian.
This
> system and Raagas and everything is essentially very very old. The
Indian
> classical music is no more Muslim than the Semiconductor industry is
Indian.
> Correct me if I am wrong, doesn't Islam prohibit indulgence in Music?
Any insult to muslims be them Arabs, or Pakistani/Indian muslims is an
insult to Islam and any muslim. An Arab is as much my muslim brother as
a Pakistani or Indian muslim, and the use of any racial slur to
describe any ethnicity or religion offends me. I don't discriminate
regarding discriminations. Neither should you. Towelhead is a racial
slur and you shouldn't try to defend Rajan's comments based on the fact
that I am not an Arab. And if it is "impossible to logically argue
about musical quality" as you stated ,you're comments about music from
other muslim civilizations should be saved for forums where impossible
things happen. Persian and Arabic classical music are both extremely
advanced musical systems, there is no need for competition between
musical systems. Appreciate yours for what it is and don't comment on
things (particularly Arabic and Persian music) you don't seem to know
anything about.
>
> >Also Rajan has stated that muslims are not and never have been
> >our(hindus) equal in music. This is absolute rubbish. More
importantly ,
> >classical music is not about competition between hindus and muslims.
We
> >all know( I hope) that both hindu's and muslims have made
contributions
> >towards shaping the presentation and theory of Hindustani music. This
> >"us against them" attitude is ridiculous and foolish. You can not
>
> You first claim that "us versus them" is not good. Then you claim that
> Muslim ("us") are actually great in Music. Shouldn't you follow your
own
> advice?
I don't claim muslims are better than hindus in music. That is the "us
against them" attitude I was reffering to. Actually I never really
considered it until these postings. I don't really care either. I enjoy
music and individual musicians regardless of their nationality or
religion. What is all this competition about? Perhaps an inferiority
complex? I assure you there are Hindu and Muslim musicians of the
highest quality and therefore incomparable to one another Even sikhs
too! (mys ustaad is a sardar...in fact has the same name as you Mr.
Surrinder Singh) ......I'm sure they don't worry to much about wheter
their religion produces better music than others. I feel just fine
about the contributions muslims have made to Hindustani music, and am
comfortable accepting the honest truth that it is a blend of Islamic
and Hindu cultural influences. If you can't handle this I suggest you
go out and by some Karnatic CD's.
>
> >honestly tell me that Muslims have not achieved the same status as
> >hindus in the practice and performance of Hindustani music. If you
would
> >like I could send you a list of at least fifty Muslim musicians (
both
> >in the past and present who have reached the highest level of
excellence
> >in the performance of Classical music. I'm sure I dont need me to do
> >that. Just check you're CD collection. I'm sure you will find a few.
>
>
Eswar Josyula
Hello all,
Even as we speak there are soldiers dying in the Indian and Pakistani
border. There is also uncertainty looming on when fresh hindu-muslim riots
will flare up. There are several points being made about Indian history,
but the present needs you. What can be done now that will help the
relations between India and Pakistan? What steps should be taken by Indian
and Pakistani people and governments that will help hindu-muslim relations?
Music is about bringing people together. As a dedication to the
countless artistes who are trying to unite people and promote peace, please
do your best in contributing to this thread. If the people of East and West
Germany are trying their best to come together and the European nations are
trying to come together to build stronger economies so can India and
Pakistan. The people of India and Pakistan need your help in building
strong communites and strong nations. Please help by contributing to this
thread and give your best suggestion yet.
Eswar
naniwadekar
Hello Ferhan Najeeb and Eswar :
I welcome the conciliatory tone of your emails.
Eswar : you are both right and wrong about "music bringing together
people". Yes, music does bring people together. But though it has been
doing this for several centuries, people of diff religions still seem
wide apart from each other. This is because idiotic music lovers think
music is the be-all and end-all. That is not true. Other things are
needed, too, to bring people together. And music can help. To say
that "music can bring together, then why all the conflicts?" is to be
naive. If the cohesive force of music is overwhelmed by other issues
that cause conflict, people will continue fighting each other.
Ferhan has pointed our attention to the demolition of babri mosque. Let
me remind him that an offer was made to find an alternate site for it
around Ayodhya. The temple was purposely destroyed by Babar. Advani and
gang wanted to correct that historical wrong. The offer to move the
mosque to another site was not accepted. This is because muslims
continued to trust the duplicitous Congress party and its hollow
assuarances. They failed to guage the extent of hurt among Hindus. Yet,
after the mosque was destroyed, the then RSS chief Balasaheb Deoras
said that any act of destruction of a place of worship causes anguish.
He said that he could understand how hurt the muslims must have been.
And he appealed to them that they should try to understand that a
similar hurt was caused to hindus by Babar. If the offer for
alternative site for mosque had been accepted the whole issue would
have been settled. Instead there were endless meetings with Babri
Mosque committee and Hindu parivar representatives with govt joining in
as the 3rd party.. Shahabuddin and gang thought that they could
procrastinate and that Congress would bail them out. Ferhan should
acknowledge shri Deoras's statement.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Keith Erskine
: In article <39C1EEDC...@dnaco.net>,
: Hello Ferhan Najeeb and Eswar :
: I welcome the conciliatory tone of your emails.
: Eswar : you are both right and wrong about "music bringing together
: people". Yes, music does bring people together. But though it has been
: doing this for several centuries, people of diff religions still seem
: wide apart from each other. This is because idiotic music lovers think
: music is the be-all and end-all. That is not true. Other things are
: needed, too, to bring people together. And music can help. To say
: that "music can bring together, then why all the conflicts?" is to be
: naive. If the cohesive force of music is overwhelmed by other issues
: that cause conflict, people will continue fighting each other.
Nevertheless, this is a music newsgroup, not turf for a religious war.
Please take these off-topic Hindu-Muslim discussions offline, and please
in the future ignore Rajan Parrikar's bigoted statements, which are
strictly flame bait. He intentionally goads people, trying to start
fights and draw attention to himself. By getting upset you are
only helping his pathetic cry for attention. Put him in a kill
file if you can't help but responding to him, but whatever, please ignore
his brand of tripe, which he has been spewing in r.m.i.c for years.
He will not change, he will not stop, so don't bother pleading with
him to do so, I've tried, others have tried, to no avail whatsover.
ferhan...@my-deja.com
>
> >Exactly this has no relevance to music....
>
> Mullah, post something that has relevance to music.
> Your contribution on music to this group is thus far
> exactly ZERO.
>
> >comments on a page devoted to classical music talk certainly deserves
a
> >scolding.
>
> discussion here don't get to decide what is and what is
> not appropriate. Hint: this space is not the property of
> the terrorist, trash Paki state.
Well I guess being a Paki terrorist has made me unwelcome on this
forum....Thats news to me...I wasn't aware of any terrorist activities I
had indulged in thus far or that this forum belonged to you
exclusively...however since you are the authority on anything everyone
comments on you must be right Panditji.... I'm tired of wasting peoples
time attempting to correct your bigoted ways, I'll refrain from doing so
on the forum from here on out, as soon as you quit responding to my
comments. However I'd love to continue this privately (as I have stated
before)....In fact me and some Paki terrorist friends of mine( they must
be terrorists because their parents happen to be from Pakistan) will be
in India in march. We would love to see you in Bombay my friend (too bad
my Arab friends are not keen ona visit to India). We'll be happy to
clear things up with you, and we will pay you a swift visit as soon as
we arive. Until then quite typing so hard on you're computer. I can hear
you're bangles jingling all the way over here in California. Take care
sweetie.
Ferhan
>
> Warm regards,
>
> r
Raghu Seshadri
: Any insult to muslims be them Arabs, or Pakistani/Indian muslims is an
: insult to Islam and any muslim. An Arab is as much my muslim brother as
I am sorry this doesn't make sense.
How can an insult to some muslims be
the same as an insult to all muslims,
and how can it be an insult to Islam ?
To show how illogical and cranky the
above formula is , let me use some
examples.
Say a bangladeshi man, call him Ahmad,
for some peculiar reason, gets unaccountably
agitated upon thinking about the massacre of
3 million bengalis by the Pakistan Army; and
insults the glorious general, Tikka Khan, who
initiated the massacre.
Has Ahmad now insulted all muslims and Islam ?
Has he insulted himself then ?
RS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
an
> : insult to Islam and any muslim. An Arab is as much my muslim brother
as
>
> How can an insult to some muslims be
> the same as an insult to all muslims,
> and how can it be an insult to Islam ?
>
> To show how illogical and cranky the
> above formula is , let me use some
> examples.
>
hope you post these responses only to antoginize me, because if you
honestly make such ridiculous conclusions from my comments I am very
sorry for you, and whichever teacher taught you how to decipher comments
in the english language. I'll try and restate my point in simpler terms
for you.
Using racial slurs to describe anyone's race, religion or ethnicity is a
dispicible act and should insult any human w/ good morals regardless of
whether or not the slur is directed towards them. I don't care what you
or Rajan think of Muslims, be them arabs, or Pakistanis, or Bosnians or
whatever, but using terms such as TOWELHEAD is childish and you and your
guru Rajan should know better. Voice you're opinions in a more
respectable manner and please read my comments a few times over before
responding w/ irrelevant points and examples. If you need more
explaining send me a personal email, I'd be happy to continue this in
private, as I'm sure the other members on this forum are sick and tired
of this discussion which obviously is going no where,. I assure you that
unlike you're guruji Rajan I won't threaten to report you to the local
authorities or tattle to your system administrator.
Ferhan
> Say a bangladeshi man, call him Ahmad,
> for some peculiar reason, gets unaccountably
> agitated upon thinking about the massacre of
> 3 million bengalis by the Pakistan Army; and
> insults the glorious general, Tikka Khan, who
> initiated the massacre.
>
> Has Ahmad now insulted all muslims and Islam ?
> Has he insulted himself then ?
>
> RS
>
Keith Erskine
TAKE THIS DISCUSSION OFFLINE! USE EMAIL!
: ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
:
: : Any insult to muslims be them Arabs, or Pakistani/Indian muslims is an
: : insult to Islam and any muslim. An Arab is as much my muslim brother as
: I am sorry this doesn't make sense.
: How can an insult to some muslims be
: the same as an insult to all muslims,
: and how can it be an insult to Islam ?
: To show how illogical and cranky the
: above formula is , let me use some
: examples.
: Say a bangladeshi man, call him Ahmad,
Rajan P. Parrikar
>...please
>in the future ignore Rajan Parrikar's bigoted statements, which are
Translation: I, Shri Erskine, am a hypocritical punk-ass who has
never practiced what I preach. I have, and shall continue to, read
every word Parrikar writes.
>strictly flame bait. He intentionally goads people, trying to start
>fights and draw attention to himself. By getting upset you are
>only helping his pathetic cry for attention. Put him in a kill
>file if you can't help but responding to him, but whatever, please ignore
>his brand of tripe, which he has been spewing in r.m.i.c for years.
Translation: Usenet is a useful ointment for my dick-itch. My
occasional squirts fool some into believing that I have something
to say but this Parrikar fella whups my sorry ass every
single time. Darn!
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>of this discussion which obviously is going no where,. I assure you that
>unlike you're guruji Rajan I won't threaten to report you to the local
>authorities or tattle to your system administrator.
>Ferhan
Mulla-ji, you had issued a threat of physical violence.
The codes in civilized countries (alien to hoodlums brought
up in Talibanized communities) require that such tactics be
taken seriously and acted upon per the procedures laid out.
In these civilized countries the solutions are not as elegant
as say, simply chopping off the violators' hands, or stoning
in public, or...you get the idea.
Warm regards,
r
gulfam...@my-deja.com
After all the "bay-izzatee" you have suffered at my hands you still
have the audacity to put your dirty fingers and other "organs" on the
keyboard?!! Parrot mian, bayghairatee kee had hotee hai!!!
You are still making statements offensive to Islam. I haven't seen
any "mullah" elements in the statements made by Ferhan Najeeb. In fact
his statements promote hindu-muslim bhai chaara. He hasn't made a
single comment which is against hinduism or any other faith for that
matter.
However when your "ghaleez" statements are analysed they contain
insults to Islam. Baaz aajao apnee harkaton say!! Its crystal clear
that you and your cronies deal with the RSS and other fundamentalist
organisations.
With views like yours meraa desh aur bhi bat jaaye ga!! So be
careful.Your naapaak iraaday will never come true.
May your armpits be infested with a thousand fleas u Goan sewerage
system!!!!
Khuda Hafiz aur aap kaa allah hee hafiz.
Gulfam
BTW: Your master Bandit Rhamrang sucks!!!
In article <8q0aob$4...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >of this discussion which obviously is going no where,. I assure you
that
> >unlike you're guruji Rajan I won't threaten to report you to the
local
> >authorities or tattle to your system administrator.
> >Ferhan
>
> Mulla-ji, you had issued a threat of physical violence.
> The codes in civilized countries (alien to hoodlums brought
> up in Talibanized communities) require that such tactics be
> taken seriously and acted upon per the procedures laid out.
> In these civilized countries the solutions are not as elegant
> as say, simply chopping off the violators' hands, or stoning
> in public, or...you get the idea.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> r
>
> Please don't misinterpret my attempts at friendly discourse over a
warm cup of chai as threats of physical violence. Such an act would be
childish and outdated just like you're rascist views and comments.
Remember us Paki's have never started anything (i.e. nukes, internet
fights, etc. etc.) We just wish to talk face-to-face as this is the
only way to solve our differences without everyone in the world
monitoring, (however perhaps we can bring in a third party to mediate,
actually..... wait you guy's never liked that, right??) We wish to help
you in mending you're troubled ways and only offer support to a brother
musician...... You can quit trembling now. It makes you're bangles
jingle even louder......
Peace and love and harmony and flowers and happy bunnies in the
Pakistani Sub-continent.........
Ferhan
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Ferhan
Warren Senders
<< just like you're >>
This discussion is of course no longer a discussion, but I thought
I'd offer one minor correction. The apostrophe in the word
"you're"
as given in the above examples indicates a contraction of the
two words
"you are."
The correct usage in this context has no apostrophe: simply
"your.
Similarly, in the phrase:
<< you guy's never liked that, right? >>
the apostrophe is superfluous. No apostrophe is required
for a simple pluralization.
If we must argue vituperatively, let us at least
punctuate properly, so that those of us with proofreaders'
eyes are not offended by form as well as content.
There.
Having done my bit for an orderly rmic society, can we please
simmer down on this thread? It is going nowhere, and getting
there in an awful hurry.
WS
Rajan P. Parrikar
>warm cup of chai as threats of physical violence. Such an act would be
>childish and outdated just like you're rascist views and comments.
It must be conceded that my views on this are outdated. No
one can outdo the Pakis in racism, thuggery and murder. No
one should even try. Glory be to the Islamic Republic of
Pakistan for the current world record: One million Bangla
muslims slaughtered with a kill-rate better than Hitler's even!
>fights, etc. etc.) We just wish to talk face-to-face as this is the
Would that be with your faces covered in handkerchiefs and heads
with towels? Sorry, Paki hoodlums are best confined to their
natural habitat, the zoo (and segregated from the rest of the
animals). As a special concession, however, we can arrange for
your face to interface with the behind of a water buffalo.
Warm regards,
r
Surinder P. Singh
Warren Senders wrote in message
<20000918163406...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>
>Similarly, in the phrase:
>
><< you guy's never liked that, right? >>
>
>the apostrophe is superfluous. No apostrophe is required
>for a simple pluralization.
The apostrophe is not "superfluous", but grammatically incorrect.
Superfluous implies that some thing is not needed, but it is correct as it
stands. But in this case the apostrophe is incorrect, not superfluous.
Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
-SS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
>
> >warm cup of chai as threats of physical violence. Such an act would
be
> >childish and outdated just like you're rascist views and comments.
>
> It must be conceded that my views on this are outdated. No
> one can outdo the Pakis in racism, thuggery and murder.
No
> one should even try.
Glory be to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
for the current world record: One million Bangla
> muslims slaughtered with a kill-rate better than Hitler's even!
>
> >fights, etc. etc.) We just wish to talk face-to-face as this is the
>
> Would that be with your faces covered in handkerchiefs and heads
> with towels?
stench....towels on our head, to keep the Parrikar filth out of our
hair.....
Sorry, Paki hoodlums are best confined to their
> natural habitat, the zoo (and segregated from the rest of the
> animals).
too!!!!
As a special concession, however, we can arrange for
> your face to interface with the behind of a water buffalo.
accidently mistake it for you're mommy's face........
Keep on jingling....
Ferhan (p.s. I'll stop when you do)
>
> Warm regards,
>
> r
itsa...@my-deja.com
cf1.aol.com>...
> >
> >Similarly, in the phrase:
> >
> ><< you guy's never liked that, right? >>
> >
> >the apostrophe is superfluous. No apostrophe
is required
> >for a simple pluralization.
>
> The apostrophe is not "superfluous", but
grammatically incorrect.
> Superfluous implies that some thing is not
needed, but it is correct as it
> stands. But in this case the apostrophe is
incorrect, not superfluous.
> Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
> -SS
BTW, the plural to 'Hair' is 'Hair' and
not 'hairs'.
talk about splitting 'hair' !!
AS
itsa...@my-deja.com
"Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> Warren Senders wrote in message
> >
> >Similarly, in the phrase:
> >
> ><< you guy's never liked that, right? >>
> >
> >the apostrophe is superfluous. No apostrophe is required
> >for a simple pluralization.
>
> The apostrophe is not "superfluous", but grammatically incorrect.
> Superfluous implies that some thing is not needed, but it is correct
as it
> stands. But in this case the apostrophe is incorrect, not superfluous.
> Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
> -SS
>
The plural form of 'Hair' is not 'Hairs', but is just 'Hair'.
Talk about splitting Hair !!
AS.
> >
> >If we must argue vituperatively, let us at least
> >punctuate properly, so that those of us with proofreaders'
> >eyes are not offended by form as well as content.
> >
> >There.
> >
> >Having done my bit for an orderly rmic society, can we please
> >simmer down on this thread? It is going nowhere, and getting
> >there in an awful hurry.
> >
> >WS
> >
> >
> >
>
>
naniwadekar
"Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
> The apostrophe is not "superfluous", but grammatically incorrect.
> Superfluous implies that some thing is not needed, but it is correct
> as it stands. But in this case the apostrophe is incorrect, not
> superfluous.
> Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
> -SS
>
You say : Superfluous implies that some thing is not needed, but it is
correct as it stands.
I would say : Superfluous implies that some thing is not needed, though
it is not incorrect as it stands. Double negation makes this point in
a better manner.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Ashok
>> Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
>> -SS
>
>BTW, the plural to 'Hair' is 'Hair' and
>not 'hairs'.
That's right.
>talk about splitting 'hair' !!
>
>AS
But this is wrong. The word IS "hairs" in the idiom.
The mistake by the erstwhile hairsplitter was using
the definite article--an inaccuracy, not a superfluity.
I am enjoying the alt.english.usage turn to the thread,
unlike the soc.culture.subcontinent turn.
Ashok
Surinder P. Singh
Ashok wrote in message <8q8t9...@news1.newsguy.com>...
>In article <8q8lvq$j7s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, itsa...@my-deja.com says...
>>
>>In article <8q8iv5$o...@news.or.intel.com>,
>> "Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>>> Methought, I'd further split the hairs.
>>> -SS
>>
>>BTW, the plural to 'Hair' is 'Hair' and
>>not 'hairs'.
>
>That's right.
>
>>talk about splitting 'hair' !!
>>
>>AS
>
>But this is wrong. The word IS "hairs" in the idiom.
>The mistake by the erstwhile hairsplitter was using
>the definite article--an inaccuracy, not a superfluity.
Thank you for giving me an escape route. While the plural of Hair is Hair,
nor Hairs, there is another consideration. (Is capitalizing Hair OK here?)
When a hair has been split, as was done by Shri Warren Ji, how do we refer
to them? I think we call them "Hairs", which is what I did. ;-) This is like
using a varjit swara (prohibited note) of a Raaga in some compositions.
-SS
>
>I am enjoying the alt.english.usage turn to the thread,
>unlike the soc.culture.subcontinent turn.
Same here. ;-)
>Ashok
>
Keith Erskine
: >>BTW, the plural to 'Hair' is 'Hair' and
: >>not 'hairs'.
but this is when used as in "an outgrowth of hair(s)".
other plural use of hairS:
"to have by the short hairs", as in, to have at one's mercy...
"to have by the short curlies" is also acceptable
: Thank you for giving me an escape route. While the plural of Hair is Hair,
: nor Hairs, there is another consideration. (Is capitalizing Hair OK here?)
: When a hair has been split, as was done by Shri Warren Ji, how do we refer
: to them? I think we call them "Hairs", which is what I did. ;-)
But a split hair is no longer structrully equivalent to holistic hair, no?
Should we not refer to them as "semi-hairs", or "sub-hairs"?
Furthermore, if it is splitting hairs, then one started out with more than
one hair to begin with, so why the need to create more by splitting them?
Ok, I'm getting too worked up, this whole thing has given me a hair?/hare?
up my *ss! This follicular folly must cease!