Ustaad Altaf Hussein Khan
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Sahib) playing tabla? If so, could you post the titles and record label?
I watched his video for nth time last night, and have decided I
must find some recordings of this master. Thanks in advance.
Ferhan Qureshi
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Warren Senders
Tofu Sahib?
WS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
funny, but thats the way it is.He explains how he got the nickname
on his video. Have you not heard of him?? He is shagird of Mian Shaukat
Hussein Khansahib(khansahib Allah Rakha's Usttad bhaai w/ Mian Kader
Baksh) If you have not heard of him, I suggest you check him out. I'm
not saying he is the best, however if you saw him play, you would be
shocked, and might conclude this for yourself. His hands are definetly
uncomparable, utilising all ten fingers. I've heard he claims his gats
are entirely composed by him,
which isn't hard to believe from the video I have, but I cant verify.
Unfortunately you never hear about him.Could be another case of
discrimination against Pakistani classical musicians..... He resides in
Lahore, but I can't locate any commercial recordings of him. He is on
the famous Lok Visra Pakistan tape along w/ Tari Sahib and Mian Shaukat
Hussein Khan. Get your hands on it and see for yourself. The most
unique, amazing technique you will ever see. Anyway, if anyone knows of
any recordings w/ him please post!!
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8sqbqg$qnn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <20001020145528...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
> war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:
>Unfortunately you never hear about him.Could be another case of
>discrimination against Pakistani classical musicians.....
Do you feel there is discrimination against Pakistani Indian-Classical
musicians? Please elaborate.
-S
ferhan...@my-deja.com
feel discriminated against on numerous fronts. First and foremost the
Pakistani government unfortunately does not support our classical
musicians or tradition. Second the Pakistani community abroad does
little to support our classical musicians either( a few of us are trying
to change this). Third the Indian community often shuns our artists when
they do wish to tour. I am always impressed by the amount of support
that the Indian community at large gives to their touring artists, and
wish that our community could do the same. This is why so many of our
talented artists have failed to reach the prestige and level of respect
that some of the great Indian Artists have achieved abroad. It certainly
is not a result of lack of talent. I was recently told a story about a
concert organizer in India who refused to allow Rais Khan Sahib to
perform at a prominent festival because he resides in Pakistan(can't
verify for sure, but a frequent RMIC poster related this story to me).
This is the reason that several of our talented artists are relativley
unheard of and perhaps one ofthe best examples I can think of is Ustaad
Altaff Hussein. There are quite a few others as well. Anyway.......we're
off the subject...do you know of any Altaff Hussein recordings??
Please?? Anybody???
Ferhan Qureshi
In article <8sqfqu$m...@news.or.intel.com>,
naniwadekar
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Emminent Pakistani classical musicians have told me themselves that
> they feel discriminated against on numerous fronts.
Ghazal singer Ghulam Ali and classical singer Salamat Ali draw decent
crowd in India. I attended 2 Salamat concerts in Delhi about 10 years
ago. Both were flops. In 1950s/60s he + Nazakat had given very good
concerts, according to old timers. Who are the new torch bearers ?
> First and foremost the Pakistani government unfortunately does not
> support our classical musicians or tradition.
AND (the second point later ... )
> Third the Indian community often shuns our artists when
> they do wish to tour. I am always impressed by the amount of support
There is a feeling in India that Pakistan govt has one point agenda.
Send jehadis to India. And you must remember that German artists were
unwelcome in UK in late 1930s. The political climate scarcely induces
Indians to attend concerts by Pakistani musicians.
> Second the Pakistani community abroad does little to support our
> classical musicians either( a few of us are trying to change this).
AND
> This is why so many of our
> talented artists have failed to reach the prestige and level of
> respect that some of the great Indian Artists have achieved abroad.
> It certainly is not a result of lack of talent.
There are many facets to this. You claim there is a lack of rasikas
in appreciable number among Pakistani community abroad. This suggests
that there is a lack of rasikas in appreciable number in Pakistan.
That fact contributes to the scene too. Today, with old patron rajas
and families guarding their musical inheritance gone, you need
music fans in very very large numbers for the ferment to occur which
creates great artists. This is not an ABSOLUTELY necessary condition.
But, as a general rule, it holds true. Vishnu Digamabar took great
efforts to create kansens.
> I was recently told a story about a
> concert organizer in India who refused to allow Rais Khan Sahib to
> perform at a prominent festival because he resides in Pakistan(can't
> verify for sure, but a frequent RMIC poster related this story to me).
If you are hurt by lack of attention given to Pakistani talent, the
concert organiser may be hurt for some reasons of his own. Fine South
African cricketers were denied a chance to play Test cricket. Music,
like Sport, does not exist in a vacuum.
> Anyway.......we're off the subject..
you brought up this discrimination complaint. So I offered the
other side of the story. Or the other side's story.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
A.Pavan
>funny, but thats the way it is.He explains how he got the nickname
>on his video. Have you not heard of him?? He is shagird of Mian Shaukat
>Hussein Khansahib(khansahib Allah Rakha's Usttad bhaai w/ Mian Kader
>Baksh) If you have not heard of him, I suggest you check him out. I'm
Well, Tafu definitely has "high bandwidth" in terms of the
"bols per second" metric. I have heard the recording and also
seen the video. While Tari's and Shaukat Hussain's performance
is steeped in classicism and ranks way up there, Tafu's is a
rapid fire series of short compositions played at mind boggling
speed. Mostly one or two avartan tihaais and some gats. There is
no "badhat" or "vistar" of any major composition in an elaborate manner.
He also mercilessly beats the crap out of the Tabla at various points
in the performance.
Tafu was mostly involved in films I think and his attitude, mannerisms and
style is very "filmi", bordering on kitschy ! The video has some funny
moments especially with him embellishing his playing with facial
expression.
In sheer speed I don't think he has a peer. No way - I have not heard
ANYONE play at that kinda speed. But the trouble is he is not able to
sustain any composition beyond a few avartans. So it is highly "bursty
traffic" at "high bandwidth". His "tihaais" - some are very good but
the whole performance lacks the kind of aesthetics one has come to
expect of a Swapanda solo or Anindoda solo.
>not saying he is the best, however if you saw him play, you would be
>shocked, and might conclude this for yourself. His hands are definetly
>uncomparable, utilising all ten fingers. I've heard he claims his gats
>are entirely composed by him,
>which isn't hard to believe from the video I have, but I cant verify.
Some are but some others are heard elsewhere from other players.
>Unfortunately you never hear about him.Could be another case of
>discrimination against Pakistani classical musicians..... He resides in
>Lahore, but I can't locate any commercial recordings of him. He is on
>the famous Lok Visra Pakistan tape along w/ Tari Sahib and Mian Shaukat
>Hussein Khan. Get your hands on it and see for yourself. The most
>unique, amazing technique you will ever see. Anyway, if anyone knows of
>any recordings w/ him please post!!
Among the younger lot of Tabla players from Pakistan check out
Ghulam Abbas Khan - also a student of Shaukat Miyan and later of the
late Alla Rakha.
Regards.
Pavan
A.Pavan
>concert organizer in India who refused to allow Rais Khan Sahib to
>perform at a prominent festival because he resides in Pakistan(can't
>verify for sure, but a frequent RMIC poster related this story to me).
Well, Rais Khan ran away from India to Pakistan claiming muslim
artists are persecuted and discriminated against, in India. He is
a big cry baby, for doing that. Ask Bismillah Khan, Amjad Ali Khan
or the hundreds of other artists if there is any verity in Rais Khan's
whining.
Pavan
A.Pavan
naniwadekar <nan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <8sqj8c$10n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Emminent Pakistani classical musicians have told me themselves that
>> they feel discriminated against on numerous fronts.
>
>Ghazal singer Ghulam Ali and classical singer Salamat Ali draw decent
>crowd in India. I attended 2 Salamat concerts in Delhi about 10 years
Well, the Shivaji brigade disrupted a big concert of Ghulam Ali not
too long ago. And on another occasion, the Thakre goons
protested actor Dilip Kumar's acceptance of some award in Pakistan, by
parading to the thespian's house and demonstrating, clad only in their
undies !!
Pavan
Arnab Chakrabarty
The Rais Khan episode is a famous one. In December 1997, the organizers
of a major Pune music festival rescheduled their event because of this
incident and some others. Rais Khan was threatened with death by Bal
Thackeray's goons if he performed at the Sawai Gandharva Festival. When
this was announced, Rais Khan's tabla accompanist for the festival, Shri
Nayan Ghosh, and my guruji Buddhadev DasGupta both decided to withdraw
from the festival in protest.
They felt that it unfair that these goons were harassing such a fine
artist only because he lives in Pakistan. The festival was rescheduled
and commenced without these three artists.
Regards,
A
In article <8sqj8c$10n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Emminent Pakistani classical musicians have told me themselves that they
> feel discriminated against on numerous fronts. First and foremost the
> Pakistani government unfortunately does not support our classical
> musicians or tradition. Second the Pakistani community abroad does
> little to support our classical musicians either( a few of us are trying
> to change this). Third the Indian community often shuns our artists when
> they do wish to tour. I am always impressed by the amount of support
> that the Indian community at large gives to their touring artists, and
> wish that our community could do the same. This is why so many of our
> talented artists have failed to reach the prestige and level of respect
> that some of the great Indian Artists have achieved abroad. It certainly
> is not a result of lack of talent. I was recently told a story about a
> concert organizer in India who refused to allow Rais Khan Sahib to
> perform at a prominent festival because he resides in Pakistan(can't
> verify for sure, but a frequent RMIC poster related this story to me).
> This is the reason that several of our talented artists are relativley
> unheard of and perhaps one ofthe best examples I can think of is Ustaad
> Altaff Hussein. There are quite a few others as well. Anyway.......we're
> off the subject...do you know of any Altaff Hussein recordings??
> Please?? Anybody???
> Ferhan Qureshi
>
> In article <8sqfqu$m...@news.or.intel.com>,
> "Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
> >
> > ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message
> <8sqbqg$qnn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > >In article <20001020145528...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
> > > war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:
> > >Unfortunately you never hear about him.Could be another case of
> > >discrimination against Pakistani classical musicians.....
> >
> > Do you feel there is discrimination against Pakistani Indian-Classical
> > musicians? Please elaborate.
> >
> > -S
> >
> >
>
AKTALWAR
India, it is my understanding that public performances by Indian artists are
banned in Pakistan. I even read a news report that a girl was arrested by
police for singing an Indian film song with the word Ram in it at a college
function.
Rais Khan is a special case. He seems to have antagonised organisers with what
he said in his public statements.
AKTALWAR
>Ghazal singer Ghulam Ali and classical singer Salamat Ali draw decent
>crowd in India. I attended 2 Salamat concerts in Delhi about 10 years
>ago. Both were flops. In 1950s/60s he + Nazakat had given very good
>concerts, according to old timers. Who are the new torch bearers ?
>
Sometime in the eighties I drove a long distance to hear a concert of Salamat
organised by some Indians (NRIs) because I had enjoyed listening to
Salamat/Nazakat recordings in the sixties in India. To my great disappointment
the concert started with one and a half hour of ghazal singing by his son
(can't remember his name). He may have been a good Ghazal singer, but that is
not what I had gone there for. Salamat's classical performance was also a great
disappointment. He was definitely not the Salamat I heard in the recordings.
dhananjay naniwadekar
pa...@femto.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) wrote:
>
> Well, the Shivaji brigade disrupted a big concert of Ghulam Ali not
> too long ago. And on another occasion, the Thakre goons
> protested actor Dilip Kumar's acceptance of some award in Pakistan, by
> parading to the thespian's house and demonstrating, clad only in
> their undies !!
is more interested in organising relief funds for victims of Israeli
atrocities, victims of Serbian nationalism, etc. But he has no interest
in relief funds for Marathwada earthquake victims, etc. And that he has
been rewarded for this stance by Paki govt. I don't know how far these
complaints are justified.
Anti apartheid goons in New Zealand disrupted tour of South African
Rugby team in mid 1980s. These NZ folks were probably the inspiration
behind Shiv Sena men who disrupted Ghulam Ali concerts.
> Thakre goons protested clad only in their undies!!
Oh!!! horror. horror.
shri Talwar wrote :
> I even read a news report that a girl was arrested by police for
> singing a song with the word Ram in it at a college function .
I have heard that Bade Ghulam was advised not to sing Pahadi Thumri
"hari om tatsat" as it praises Krishna. Hence or otherwise, Bade Ghulam
wanted Indian nationality. Morarji Desai helped him acquire it. Can
anyone confirm or deny this story that Paki govt frowned upon Bade
Ghulam singing praises of Lord Krishna ?
> Well, the Shivaji brigade disrupted a big concert of Ghulam Ali not
> too long ago.
I am genuinely touched that after Pakistani complaints that their
artists are discriminated against, Pavan has expressed solidarity with
them. This is the spirit that will solve Kashmir problem, I guess. We
need more Pavans to reciprocate Ferhan Bhai's and Musharraf's goodwill.
Not people like Thackeray. Unfortunately Thackeray is recruiting more
goons for his cause. He had advocated ban on cricket with Pakistan. His
feelings have recently been supported by Kapil and Sachin Tendulkar.
Let us ban Sachin, and resume cricket with Wasim Akram and music with
shri Ghulam Ali. The Promised Land is just two steps away. Out there,
the music by Rais Khan and Altaf Hussain Khan is everlastingly played
in the background.
- nani
A.Pavan
>artists are discriminated against, Pavan has expressed solidarity with
>them. This is the spirit that will solve Kashmir problem, I guess. We
>need more Pavans to reciprocate Ferhan Bhai's and Musharraf's goodwill.
>Not people like Thackeray. Unfortunately Thackeray is recruiting more
>goons for his cause. He had advocated ban on cricket with Pakistan. His
>feelings have recently been supported by Kapil and Sachin Tendulkar.
>
>Let us ban Sachin, and resume cricket with Wasim Akram and music with
>shri Ghulam Ali. The Promised Land is just two steps away. Out there,
>the music by Rais Khan and Altaf Hussain Khan is everlastingly played
>in the background.
Q: What is Bal Thackeray's favorite Raga?
A: Miyan Ki Todi
(literal meaning of this: broke the Miyan's (i.e. a Muslim's) body part)
Pavan
Surinder P. Singh
this "discrimination" is bad. My response to that is a practical one: The
most desirable scenario is, or course, no discrimination or dislike and
differences. But if we fail in this, it is best to keep peace by maintaining
a certain distance. India and Pakistan are two countries that have failed to
get along with each other. The creation of Pakistan, quite obviously, was
due to this inability to get along. Even now after 50 years of living
separetely the countries are at loggerheads with each other. India feels
weary of Pakistan due to Jehadis, terrorism, illegal immigrants, fake
currency, obsession on Kashmir. Many Indians feel sore due to last 1000
years of Muslim atrocities. In this climate it is best to maintain a
peaceful distance if nearness will not work. I live in India, only a few
hours from Lahore by car, but never been there in my life. A train service
between India and Pakistan was started recently, but the perception in India
is this train service has not helped as it has now become the pathway for
Jehadis, smugglers, illegal immigrants, fake currency, and narcotic. Getting
Pakistani music artists will bring two communities too close to be able to
maintain peace. There can be many possible sources of friction in these
joint Indian Classical tours/programmes, for instance, consider the
following: Pakistanis will object to the use of the word "Indian
Subcontinent" and would rather use the clunky "South Asia" expression
(Pakistani goverment recently officially objected to the use of this by the
Indian government.); Pakistani may also object to the use of the expression
"Indian Classical Music", preferring some other expression that excludes the
word "India" instead; Pakistanis may make many claims irksome to Indians
about many of the Raagas/taals/instruments originating from external Islamic
sources; there may be fund raisers for Pakistani causes which will create
doubt about in Indian minds as to where exactly the money might end up (for
some Madrasa or some Pro-Kashmiri Jehadi outfit like Lashka-E-Toiba etc.).
It is best to avoid all this mess.
By the way, I think it is perhaps not accurate to call it "discrimination",
but "boycott" may be a better term.
-S
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8sqj8c$10n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
maha...@my-deja.com
about Muslim artists in India being treated with discrimination. Before
that Rais Khan has performed in Pune many times. Indians have always
enjoyed and respected good pakistani artists.
Anyway I would like to ask Mr. Ferhan how many Indian artists are
invited in Pakistan to perform ?? Forget about classical musicians. How
many times Pakistan has invited Lata Mangeshkar who is very popular in
Pakistan ??
Regards,
Maha
In article <8ss8ih$65q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Arnab Chakrabarty <acwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ferhan bhai, you do not have to be so diplomatic to protect my
identity.
> The Rais Khan episode is a famous one. In December 1997, the
organizers
> of a major Pune music festival rescheduled their event because of this
> incident and some others. Rais Khan was threatened with death by Bal
> Thackeray's goons if he performed at the Sawai Gandharva Festival.
When
> this was announced, Rais Khan's tabla accompanist for the festival,
Shri
> Nayan Ghosh, and my guruji Buddhadev DasGupta both decided to withdraw
> from the festival in protest.
>
> They felt that it unfair that these goons were harassing such a fine
> artist only because he lives in Pakistan. The festival was rescheduled
> and commenced without these three artists.
>
> Regards,
>
> A
>
> In article <8sqj8c$10n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Plese continue to boycott Pakistani Artists.The indians we wish to
invite to concerts and appreciate our artists are the kind who can
maturely make a distinction between cultural and political issues. No
skin of our backs if you don't want to appreciate our talented
artists..... By the way there is nothing wrong with our artists being
recognized as Pakistani Classical musicans, as if they are from
Pakistan, then there music is Pakistani. Also when I suggeested the
support of the Indian Community I wasn't clear,....... I meant abroad,
especially here in the States.....I understand why Indians and
Pakistanis don't promote each others artists in their respective
countries for obvious reasons, especially those already outlined by
other posters in this thread. Also, I can't remeber the last time we
held a concert to raise funds for a madrassa, or to support the
Kashmiri mujahadeen, however since you seem to know about this, if there
ever is one, please inform me as I will be one of the first patrons in
line. Generally we have other methods to raise money for these noble
causes. We like to keep culture and politics seperate. By the way you
should visit Lahore sometime. It's a nice place. You are welcome there.
Ferhan Qureshi
In article <8sthcb$m...@news.or.intel.com>,
"Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
gajendra
not Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan from Lahore?..Wasmt Sharif Khan
Poonchwala a great sitarist...Indian or Pakistan...music is music and
should not be discriminated against..in the end the people who boycott
a certain musician for political reasons is doing nothing but
depriving himself of that music...point and case RAIS KHAN..he said
some pretty wild things when he left India...but BEIEVE me when he
comes to Calcutta to perform...his shows are sold out within a matter
of hours...Calcutta people dont care about POLITICS..they care about
MUSIC..and nothing else...
JUST MY 2 CENTS..
A.Pavan
funny. He had once received an invitation to perform in Pakistan and
was told not to play Ragas named after Hindu deities and Ragas with
feminine names.
Shahidbhai never accepted the invitation but said he was tempted to
write back to them saying while he could play "Durga" or "Saraswati" he
had no idea how to play "Fatima" or "Shabana". :-)
Pavan
Surinder P. Singh
A.Pavan wrote in message <8t219c$qb3$1...@laurel.tc.umn.edu>...
>Shahid Parvez Khan was in Minneapolis last year and mentioned something
>funny. He had once received an invitation to perform in Pakistan and
>was told not to play Ragas named after Hindu deities and Ragas with
>feminine names.
>
>Shahidbhai never accepted the invitation but said he was tempted to
>write back to them saying while he could play "Durga" or "Saraswati" he
>had no idea how to play "Fatima" or "Shabana". :-)
This is one of the things that I was referring to. I think it is a
contradiction to desire Indian Classical music while trying to reject its
Hindu roots and orgin and sustainence. This rejection goes to the heart of
the issue of how Pakistan views India and Hindus and the heritage of their
own people. No wonder so many of Pakistanis claim ethnic ancestory from
Arabs, Persians, and Central Asia.
-SS
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t1r7s$8g6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Ferhan Bhai,
The state of tension and war like attitude between the people of our
countries is not good. If things become normal, we should be able to
interact in the field of music too. That would be my desire too.
>Surrinder Bhaai,
>Plese continue to boycott Pakistani Artists.The indians we wish to
>invite to concerts and appreciate our artists are the kind who can
>maturely make a distinction between cultural and political issues. No
>skin of our backs if you don't want to appreciate our talented
>artists..... By the way there is nothing wrong with our artists being
>recognized as Pakistani Classical musicans, as if they are from
>Pakistan, then there music is Pakistani.
If a musician from Denmark plays Western Classical music, it does not make
that music Danish Classical Music. The music we are talking about is no more
Pakistani. This is precisely what I was referring to in my previous post:
Too much closeness will lead to issues like these. The American practioners
of this Music, including the one on this newsgroup, don't claim that they
are playing American Classical Music, do they? Why can't the Pakistanis use
the prevalent term for it: Indian Classical Music?
>Also when I suggeested the
>support of the Indian Community I wasn't clear,....... I meant abroad,
>especially here in the States.....I understand why Indians and
>Pakistanis don't promote each others artists in their respective
>countries for obvious reasons, especially those already outlined by
>other posters in this thread. Also, I can't remeber the last time we
>held a concert to raise funds for a madrassa, or to support the
>Kashmiri mujahadeen, however since you seem to know about this, if there
>ever is one, please inform me as I will be one of the first patrons in
>line.
Most Indians would be the last. I was giving potential examples of plausible
situations which lead to conflict by having close musical interactions
between Indians and Pakistanis. Unlike the partition of Sweden into Sweden
and Norway, the Indo-Pak divorce still looks messy. This group is about
Music, not politics, but Music, as someone pointed out, does not exist in a
vacuum.
>Generally we have other methods to raise money for these noble
>causes. We like to keep culture and politics seperate. By the way you
>should visit Lahore sometime. It's a nice place. You are welcome there.
I would love to visit Lahore and as well as other places like Rawalpindi (my
father was born there). I do sincerely hope that our two nations can live
peacefully and be like normal neighbours who can travel freely and exchange
music feely. The prospect for this is in the near future is bleak, though.
Regards.
-S
naniwadekar
gajendra <gaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> was not Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan from Lahore?..Wasmt Sharif Khan
> Poonchwala a great sitarist...Indian or Pakistan...
Who has denied that Bade Ghulam was from Pakistan? Who has denied that
he was a great singer? Who has denied that Salamat was a great singer
in his prime (but not anymore) ?
> music is music and should not be discriminated against..in the end
> the people who boycott a certain musician for political reasons is
> doing nothing but depriving himself of that music...
Once again, didn't India boycott South African cricket team? Pakistan
also boycotted SA cricketers . When they were banned they had one of
the greatest teams ever. People willingly deprived themselves of those
great cricketers like Graeme Pollock and Barry Richards.
> point and case RAIS KHAN..he said
> some pretty wild things when he left India...but BEIEVE me when he
> comes to Calcutta to perform...his shows are sold out within a matter
> of hours...Calcutta people dont care about POLITICS..they care about
> MUSIC..and nothing else...
>
It is well known that Calcutta people don't care about politics. Swapan
Dasgupta, a bong himself, has frequently written about bankruptcy of
Bengal politics. When bengal produced Raja Rammohan Roy, Ramakrishna
Paramhans, Vivekanand, it was said that what Bengal thinks today, India
thinks tomorrow. Unfortunately India stopped thinking with Bengal in
Subhashchandra Bose's time. Today, Jyoti Basu is a living testimony
that what world thought 50 years ago and has by now discredited, Bengal
thinks today.
> JUST MY 2 CENTS..
>
Say 2 roubles. Your currency is fake. Produced by ISI ???
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
AKTALWAR
>Date: 10/23/00 10:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8t1r7s$8g6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
Also when I suggeested the
>support of the Indian Community I wasn't clear,....... I meant abroad,
>especially here in the States.....I understand why Indians and
>Pakistanis don't promote each others artists in their respective
>countries for obvious reasons
The use of the term 'each others' above is misleading. There is an official ban
on public performances by Indian artists in Pakistan. There have been some
protests in western India by one organisation against concerts by Pakistani
artists to draw attention to this ban. Many artists from Pakistan are invited
to India and have successful public concert tours. Some Indian muslim artists
have been invited to Pakistan for private concerts, but these have been very
few.
In the US, unless the artist is well known, concerts are arranged through
personal contacts. Few Pakistani artists have personal concerts with Indians
here. Well known Pakistani artists do get sponsored by Indian organisations and
that includes Rais Khan (I think he is now a Pakistani artist, having moved
there) inspite of his antagonistic statements (and inspite of his weak ragdari
and layakari IMHO). I know that Salamat and Tari were sponsored often by
Indians here. Nusrat Fateh Ali was promoted by an Indian in this country.
There is a large number of new fairly good artists coming from India because of
good support for music there, and this, combined with limited opportunities in
the US also presents a problem.
I must also point out that I know one Hindu Ghazal singer who has been
sponsored for concerts by Pakistanis here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Indians. Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
Nobody gives a rat's ass to what the Pakis call it. The world
recognises it as Indian music.
>proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies the
>hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
No, Indian classical music began with the Hindus and is rooted
in the Hindu tradition. That there are Muslim practitioners
of the art does not change the fundamental truth. Why don't
you learn about the history of the development of Indian music
first before blabbing?
>should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and shape our
>classical music as it is presented today.
It is not a blend. Indians have always assimilated external
influences while retaining the essential character of their
tradition, and it doesn't apply to only their music. This
idea of accepting the best from everywhere is an ancient
Hindu trait going back to the time of the Rg Veda. Compared
to the intellectual perspectives and ideas that have gone into the
underpinnings of Indian classical music the external influences
are relatively minor. Ignorant Paki mullahs are incapable of
grasping any kind of truth that doesn't sit well with their
whitewashed history. For a start you could look up Rowell's
"Music and Musical Thought in Early India."
Warm regards,
r
ferhan...@my-deja.com
>
> Ferhan Bhai,
>
> The state of tension and war like attitude between the people of our
> countries is not good. If things become normal, we should be able to
> interact in the field of music too. That would be my desire too.
Inshallah some day.............
>
> >Surrinder Bhaai,
> >Plese continue to boycott Pakistani Artists.The indians we wish to
> >invite to concerts and appreciate our artists are the kind who can
> >maturely make a distinction between cultural and political issues. No
> >skin of our backs if you don't want to appreciate our talented
> >artists..... By the way there is nothing wrong with our artists
being
> >recognized as Pakistani Classical musicans, as if they are from
> >Pakistan, then there music is Pakistani.
>
> If a musician from Denmark plays Western Classical music, it does not
make
> that music Danish Classical Music. The music we are talking about is
no more
> Pakistani. This is precisely what I was referring to in my previous
post:
> Too much closeness will lead to issues like these. The American
practioners
> of this Music, including the one on this newsgroup, don't claim that
they
> are playing American Classical Music, do they? Why can't the
Pakistanis use
> the prevalent term for it: Indian Classical Music?
Surrinder Bhaai
There is a difference in your example and our situation. Pakistani's
refer to our music as Pakistani, be it clasical, folk or qawwali, for a
legitimate reason. It is not something foreign to us that we adopted, or
took from anyone else. (as would be the case for an american performing
hindustani music) I remind you that the ancestors of pakistanis have
been playing, studying, and performing classical music as long as the
Indians. Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
Indian music is indian and Pakistani music is pakistani.Anything that
has Islamic cultural influence on the sub-continent: food, music,
architecture, literature, is part of our Pakistani culture, and we are
proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies the
hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and shape our
classical music as it is presented today. Actually I prefer to use the
term hindustani music when I talk about it in general amongst my Indian
and Pakistani friends. Unfortunately many Pakistani's disagree w/ me on
that point which is wrong. I like that term because it doesn't
neccesarily denote a nationality(some may argue otherwise). When I speak
about Pakistani classical music I am simply refering to classical music
as performed by Pakistanis. It is not a nationalistic statement or
anything profound like that. I love good hindustani music whether it is
performed by Indians, Pakistanis , Americans or the Danish.
Ferhan Qureshi
Unfortunately yes it is bleak. As a child my father took me to hundreds
of concerts.(I'm still young, only 23) and I was always fascinated by
how muslims and hindus, sikhs etc. could sit together and create and
enjoy such a beautiful art without any distinctions and prejudces. This
was totally contradicting to what I would read in the Indian and
Pakistani papers as well as hear from my peers and friends. Honestly
this is one thing that attracted me to our classical music. In fact
until recently(and partially because of this chatgroup) I found out that
this in unfortunately not always true. We still have a long way to go on
all fronts it seems. At least educated people like ourselves should make
the effort to change the situation especially when it comes to our
music.(we don't need to worry about how we label the music or where an
artist is from. These are petty things when you consider the service the
musicans provide to us.)
Take care,
Ferhan Qureshi p.s. did you ever hear Altaff Hussein Khan?????????
AKTALWAR
> I remind you that the ancestors of pakistanis have
>been playing, studying, and performing classical music as long as the
>Indians.
You are right. This is because ancestors of most Pakistanis were Hindus. It is
refreshing to see someone of Pakistani origin accept this. Ancestors of most
muslim musicians of India and Pakistan were also Hindus but were converted to
Islam during Islamic rule.
>Actually I prefer to use the
>term hindustani music when I talk about it in general amongst my Indian
>and Pakistani friends. Unfortunately many Pakistani's disagree w/ me on
>that point which is wrong. I like that term because it doesn't
>neccesarily denote a nationality(some may argue otherwise).
It does denote a nationality. Hindustani music is the name given by the muslim
invaders, so glorified by most Pakistanis, to our music as being the music of
the land of Hindus. Pakistan today is hardly a land of Hindus.
If you continue to fund the 'noble' causes of madarsas and jehadis as you have
said, Pakistan will be further Talibanised and as in Afghanistan, music in
Pakistan will be banned ( as Aurangzeb, a devout muslim, also did). Then there
will be no music in Pakistan.
>(we don't need to worry about how we label the music or where an
>artist is from. These are petty things when you consider the service the
>musicans provide to us.)
Most Indians agree with you wholeheartedly on this and they demonstrate this in
practice. You should direct your comments at the Government of Pakistan who
have banned performances by Indian musicians.
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >Indians. Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
>
> recognises it as Indian music.
Ahhhhh...Rajan Bhaai....Before you even reached your computer I knew it
was you!!!!! I smelled the rotting ghee in your hair as soon as you
crawled out of that pathetic hole in Sunnyvale! Not to mention your
jingling bangles announced your anticipated response on this thread,
far before you slithered to the free internet computer at the local
loony-bin!
>
> >proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies
the
> >hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
>
> No, Indian classical music began with the Hindus and is rooted
> in the Hindu tradition. That there are Muslim practitioners
> of the art does not change the fundamental truth. Why don't
> you learn about the history of the development of Indian music
> first before blabbing?
OK lets be realistic.I beg you to forget your egotistical, pandit-like
tendencies for just a minute. Can you honestly deny the numerous
influences Islamic culture and muslims brought to hindustani music?
Amir Khusrow,? Mian Tansen? Sidhar Khan? These were innovators who
added new deminsions to the music through their presentation,
instruments, compositions, etc., etc,. These are not minor additions
which just happened to be incorporated by some lentil eating guru-
pandit meditating in the jungle. Consider yourself lucky that we came
around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north, or else
you'd be listening to some monkey pluking an ektara and mumbling some
chants.
(Ok settle down everyone else......thats a bit extreme...I know...just
having fun.......no hard feelings....fite fire with fire....tit-for-
tat......eye-for-an-eye tooth-for-a-tooth......sticks and
stones......blah, blah blah)
How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc. I
could fill pages with names. Did these musicians not have an influence
on how our music is presented and appreciated today? Muslims are much
more than just practitioners in this art form. Go to south india if you
want to listen to -as you put it- "Hindu music rooted in the Hindu
tradition"
>
> >"We should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and
shape our
> >classical music as it is presented today."
Rajan Bhaai, Print this quote out and read it one hundred times before
you go to bed every night. Stuff it in that sticky magazine you hide
from your mom under your mattress. That way you wont forget before you
go to sleep. Oh yeah!!!! That way you'll probably read it in the
morning too! Who knows....Maybe even a couple times in the afternoon,
between your plagerising,ummm I mean posting.>
> It is not a blend. Indians have always assimilated external
> influences while retaining the essential character of their
> tradition,(see note about the ektara plucking elephant, or whatever
it was) and it doesn't apply to only their music.
Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and developed the plans(I know
they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra Fort...Badshai
Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
retaining their essential character" I know that tandoori boti-kabab
and that fragrent biriyani soaking in lamb fat was a favorite amongst
the ghee-slurping gourmets before muslims spiced up the food around
there and made it edible. Or were these snatched up also by the jungle-
dwelling guru-pandit? Ask the monkey. They were friends.
This
> idea of accepting the best from everywhere is an ancient
> Hindu trait going back to the time of the Rg Veda. Compared
> to the intellectual perspectives and ideas that have gone into the
> underpinnings of Indian classical music the external influences
> are relatively minor. Inferiority complex?
Ignorant Paki mullahs are incapable of
> grasping any kind of truth that doesn't sit well with their
> whitewashed history.
Mentally Bhraminised, bangle-wearing, want-a-be pandit-gurus are so
jealous of the culturally rich muslim influence on their worthless
everyday lives that they sit in sunnyvale all day long plagirising
worthless books and flipping through a thesaurus, in an attempt to
sound like some frickin genius on a chat group.
For a start you could look up Rowell's
> "Music and Musical Thought in Early India."
Nah..., I'll flip through my copy of the "Padshanama" instead. Your
Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
Khudahafiz,
Ferhan Qureshi
>
> Warm regards,
>
> r
naniwadekar
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> some lentil eating guru-pandit meditating in the jungle.
what is wrong with a guru-pandit meditating in the jungle ? do you have
a preference for ganja-smoking talibani politician who bans music ?
> Consider yourself lucky that we came
> around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north,
do you mean things need fixing in the south Indian classical music?
>
> How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc.
1. Allaudin Khan Sahib was a "mentally brahminised" muslim. He
considered himself lucky that a brahmin (Ravi Shankar) agreed to marry
his daughter. He was a ninth generation muslim. Originally Hindu.
2. Bade Ghulam was desparate for Indian passport. Deodhar guruji tried
to help him get it. Morarji was the catalyst as BGAK became Indian.
3. Bismillah told that he was condemned by Iranian Mullah for
practising music. YOU are lucky you were influenced by Indian music, as
Quran, Aurangzeb and Taliban have spoken against it. How can you call
ICM lucky? It has always been doing fine.
4. Alladiyan Khan sahib called himself Brahmin of Shandilya gotra. He
wore sacred thread. His funeral was boycotted by muslims in mumbai.
Funeral of famous muslim musicians were attended by thousands of
muslims those days. When shri Deodhar and Kumar Gandharva joined
Alladiya sahib's funeral, there were 8 to 10 people in it.
> or else (but for Islamic influence) you'd be listening to some monkey
> pluking an ektara and mumbling some chants.
> (Ok settle down everyone else......thats a bit extreme...I know...
When Mohd Rafi chanted "Hari Om" in "Man Tadpat hari darshan ko aaj"
(Baiju Bawra), was he being a mumbling brahminised idiot? Monkey
plucking ektara? That is not "a bit extreme". It is complete garbage.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Rajan P. Parrikar
>tendencies for just a minute. Can you honestly deny the numerous
>influences Islamic culture and muslims brought to hindustani music?
>Amir Khusrow,? Mian Tansen? Sidhar Khan? These were innovators who
The muslims who contributed to Hindustani music were operating
within the Indian tradition. They had been in India long enough
to have imbibed the Hindu essense. They were Indians in every
sense of the word. Khusro himself writes glowingly of the Indian
music of his time. Tansen, by most accounts, was a Hindu.
It is India that civilized the earlier Islamic brutes. You have
it backwards like every uncouth illiterate Paki mullah.
>How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
>Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc. I
All fine musicians. But they don't share your Paki mullah view.
BGAK, Allauddin and Bismillah actively recognized the Hindu
antecedents of Indian music.
>Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
I agree. Quarterdicked mullahs and books don't go together.
Warm regards,
r
kanek...@my-deja.com
> which just happened to be incorporated by some lentil eating guru-
> pandit meditating in the jungle. Consider yourself lucky that we came
> around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north, or else
> you'd be listening to some monkey pluking an ektara and mumbling some
> chants.
And pray where did you come from ? All the monkeys are in pakistan.
Look what has happened to you since you became pakis - women put
under burkhas , men turned into frothing jehadis and of course the
whole place run by generals (the current one was not even born there)
> How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc. I
> could fill pages with names. Did these musicians not have an influence
> on how our music is presented and appreciated today? Muslims are much
> more than just practitioners in this art form. Go to south india if
> you want to listen to -as you put it- "Hindu music rooted in the Hindu
> tradition"
go to afghanistan/iran/arabia if you want to listen to "your" music
if the mullahs let you that is.
> >
> "We should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and
> shape our classical music as it is presented today."
the thing that's out of the blender is your brain.
> Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and developed the plans(I
> know
> they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra Fort...Badshai
> Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
> retaining their essential character" I know that tandoori boti-kabab
No you moron - your muslim ancestors plundered the hindu architecture
shamelessly. The mosque around qutab minar for instance - plundered
jain pillars used for the structure.
> Or were these snatched up also by the jungle-
> dwelling guru-pandit? Ask the monkey. They were friends.
>
Ask the bastard-spawning mullah. He of course will have nothing to
do with music or wine ...
>
> Mentally Bhraminised, bangle-wearing, want-a-be pandit-gurus are so
> jealous of the culturally rich muslim influence on their worthless
> everyday lives that they sit in sunnyvale all day long plagirising
> worthless books and flipping through a thesaurus, in an attempt to
> sound like some frickin genius on a chat group.
Mentally castrated paki mullah - who thinks he is descended from
arabia - you are incapable of a single original thought.
> Nah..., I'll flip through my copy of the "Padshanama" instead. Your
> Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
>
> Khudahafiz,
> Ferhan Qureshi
flip away ... No doubt in it you will read that islam bans music,
that women are meant to be covered up and barbaric jehad is the
only thing worthwhile.
cheers,
Shri
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t2k7f$upl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t27f8$k...@news.or.intel.com>,
> "Surinder P. Singh" <suri...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message
><8t1r7s$8g6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Ferhan Sahib:
A few disagreements with you in the post. I hope I do not offend you, my aim
is to have a polite civil discussion. I hope you don't accrod me the same
verbal onslought as you did to Rajan.
>> If a musician from Denmark plays Western
>> Classical music, it does not make
>> that music Danish Classical Music.
>> The music we are talking about is no more
>> Pakistani.
>>
>Surrinder Bhaai
>There is a difference in your example and our situation. Pakistani's
>refer to our music as Pakistani, be it clasical, folk or qawwali, for a
>legitimate reason. It is not something foreign to us that we adopted, or
>took from anyone else. (as would be the case for an american performing
>hindustani music) I remind you that the ancestors of pakistanis have
>been playing, studying, and performing classical music as long as the
>Indians.
First let us clarify basic terminology: Whom do you consider the ancestors
of Pakistan? Are the ancestors those Hindus which converted (or were made to
convert) to Islam? Or by ancestors do you mean Persians, Turks, Arabs,
Afghans, and Central asians? If you use the first definition, you are right.
You are right by definition, because those Hindus were Indians themselves
and therefore been playing that music for as long as Indians (themselves).
In other words, they have been playing that music as long as themselves ;-)
If you imply the second meaning of ancestors, then what you are saying is,
pardon me for saying it, utterly garbage.
>Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
>Indian music is indian and Pakistani music is pakistani.
Except that this "Pakistani Classical Music" is IDENTICAL to Indian
classical music. It would make sense to call it by a different name if
Pakistani Music evolved into something different than Indian Classical. This
could have been a possibility, but with rising Talebanization of Pakistan,
Islam/Quran's ban on Music, it is highly unlikely. This is unfortunate, but
that is how it seems.
>Anything that
>has Islamic cultural influence on the sub-continent: food, music,
>architecture, literature, is part of our Pakistani culture, and we are
>proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies the
>hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
>should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and shape our
>classical music as it is presented today.
Indian Classical music has been in existence for much much longer than even
before Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was born. The Islamic influence that you talk
about is nothing but small incremental changes on that monolith. We
appreciate those contributions, but in the overall scheme of things it would
not have made too much of an difference. If you do a thought experiment, and
delete all Islamic influence, I think our Classical music would be just as
fine. Muslims played came to Indian Classical music and have played by its
rules. If Islamic influence has been the mainstay, or even as important as
you suggest, why did it not develop into something substantial in ANY
Islamic country? Why don't we find some great classical musical tradition in
Arabia, or Persia, or Turkey, or Northern Africa, or Central Asia or
anywhere in the 2-3 Billion Muslim world?
To give more analogies: just because there are 30-50% Indians in all Silicon
Valley startups and companies, it doesn't mean that the Silicon Valley
phenomena is actually an Indian phenomena. Indians immigrated and played by
the American way of doing things.
>Actually I prefer to use the
>term hindustani music when I talk about it in general amongst my Indian
>and Pakistani friends. Unfortunately many Pakistani's disagree w/ me on
>that point which is wrong. I like that term because it doesn't
>neccesarily denote a nationality(some may argue otherwise).
Hindustan means India. I don't know how you can argue that it doesn't. The
only thing about this name, as opposed to the name "India" or "Bharat", is
that it was given by the Muslim invaders. Does that make it more palatable?
>When I speak
>about Pakistani classical music I am simply refering to classical music
>as performed by Pakistanis.
What do you refer to the music of a Pakistani playing Western Classical
music? Pakistani classical music? I sometimes wonder if this quibble about
name due to a desire for Geographical accuracy, or due to a hatred for
anything Hindu?
-SS
Jason Mainland
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Also, I can't remeber the last time we
> held a concert to raise funds for a madrassa, or to support the
> Kashmiri mujahadeen, however since you seem to know about this, if there
> ever is one, please inform me as I will be one of the first patrons in
> line. Generally we have other methods to raise money for these noble
> causes.
Glories to Allah, the Merciful and the Compassionate.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Surinder P. Singh
Rajan P. Parrikar wrote in message <8t2o9...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
>>Indians. Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
>
>recognises it as Indian music.
Actually that is true. Pakistanis calling it diffently is actually a
non-issue.
>>proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies the
>>hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
>
>No, Indian classical music began with the Hindus and is rooted
>in the Hindu tradition. That there are Muslim practitioners
>of the art does not change the fundamental truth. Why don't
>you learn about the history of the development of Indian music
>first before blabbing?
Hindu Indians have been a little bashful of saying it, but the Indian
Classical music is essentially linked to Hinduism in virtually all ways.
>>should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and shape our
>>classical music as it is presented today.
>
>It is not a blend. Indians have always assimilated external
>influences while retaining the essential character of their
>tradition, and it doesn't apply to only their music. This
>idea of accepting the best from everywhere is an ancient
>Hindu trait going back to the time of the Rg Veda. Compared
>to the intellectual perspectives and ideas that have gone into the
>underpinnings of Indian classical music the external influences
>are relatively minor. Ignorant Paki mullahs are incapable of
>grasping any kind of truth that doesn't sit well with their
>whitewashed history. For a start you could look up Rowell's
>"Music and Musical Thought in Early India."
>
>Warm regards,
>
>
>r
>
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t3drc$iv4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t2o9...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
>Consider yourself lucky that we came
>around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north, or else
>you'd be listening to some monkey pluking an ektara and mumbling some
>chants.
Firstly who is "we". Where did you come from? Are you not a convert of the
local Hindu population? More importantly, who invited you to come and "fix
things up"?
I am not sure what you mean by "monkey pluking an ektara"? It seems like a
compliment, if even a Monkey could pluck an ektara, then it seems its a
musically advanced country.
>Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and developed the plans(I know
>they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra Fort...Badshai
>Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
>retaining their essential character"
And what's your point here?
>I know that tandoori boti-kabab
>and that fragrent biriyani soaking in lamb fat was a favorite amongst
>the ghee-slurping gourmets before muslims spiced up the food around
>there and made it edible. Or were these snatched up also by the jungle-
>dwelling guru-pandit? Ask the monkey. They were friends.
Please explain. What are you trying to say here?
-SS
Surinder P. Singh
naniwadekar wrote in message <8t2bhf$npi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Once again, didn't India boycott South African cricket team? Pakistan
>also boycotted SA cricketers . When they were banned they had one of
>the greatest teams ever. People willingly deprived themselves of those
>great cricketers like Graeme Pollock and Barry Richards.
And Pakistan today boycotts Israelis too.
-S
gajendra
of the FEW places where any communal riots..etc.. takes place..i am
not a supporter of communism..but the man OBVIOUSLY knows something to
be able to keep his state under control..and 15 million Bengalis have
repeatedly elected him to power...not ALL of them care for communism..
-gaj
On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:45:21 GMT, naniwadekar <nan...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>In article <gev8vss5hgmeq3gih...@4ax.com>,
> gajendra <gaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> was not Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan from Lahore?..Wasmt Sharif Khan
>> Poonchwala a great sitarist...Indian or Pakistan...
>
>Who has denied that Bade Ghulam was from Pakistan? Who has denied that
>he was a great singer? Who has denied that Salamat was a great singer
>in his prime (but not anymore) ?
>
>> music is music and should not be discriminated against..in the end
>> the people who boycott a certain musician for political reasons is
>> doing nothing but depriving himself of that music...
>
>Once again, didn't India boycott South African cricket team? Pakistan
>also boycotted SA cricketers . When they were banned they had one of
>the greatest teams ever. People willingly deprived themselves of those
>great cricketers like Graeme Pollock and Barry Richards.
>
>> point and case RAIS KHAN..he said
>> some pretty wild things when he left India...but BEIEVE me when he
>> comes to Calcutta to perform...his shows are sold out within a matter
>> of hours...Calcutta people dont care about POLITICS..they care about
>> MUSIC..and nothing else...
>>
>It is well known that Calcutta people don't care about politics. Swapan
>Dasgupta, a bong himself, has frequently written about bankruptcy of
>Bengal politics. When bengal produced Raja Rammohan Roy, Ramakrishna
>Paramhans, Vivekanand, it was said that what Bengal thinks today, India
>thinks tomorrow. Unfortunately India stopped thinking with Bengal in
>Subhashchandra Bose's time. Today, Jyoti Basu is a living testimony
>that what world thought 50 years ago and has by now discredited, Bengal
>thinks today.
>
>> JUST MY 2 CENTS..
>>
>Say 2 roubles. Your currency is fake. Produced by ISI ???
>
>- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
>
>
maha...@my-deja.com
attacks by CPI cadres on Trinamool Congress supporters)?? The situation
is really miserable, but unlike communal incidents, they are
underplayed by left dominated media.
Yep, Mr. Basu certainly knows how to keep control over his state.
Regards,
Maha
In article <l6lbvs816tah1fkrg...@4ax.com>,
gajendra <gaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> dont take shots at Jyoti Basu..for your information..calcutta is one
> of the FEW places where any communal riots..etc.. takes place..i am
> not a supporter of communism..but the man OBVIOUSLY knows something to
> be able to keep his state under control..and 15 million Bengalis have
> repeatedly elected him to
> -gaj
>
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:45:21 GMT, naniwadekar <nan...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <gev8vss5hgmeq3gih...@4ax.com>,
> > gajendra <gaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> was not Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan from Lahore?..Wasmt Sharif Khan
> >> Poonchwala a great sitarist...Indian or Pakistan...
> >
> >Who has denied that Bade Ghulam was from Pakistan? Who has denied
that
> >he was a great singer? Who has denied that Salamat was a great singer
> >in his prime (but not anymore) ?
> >
> >> music is music and should not be discriminated against..in the end
> >> the people who boycott a certain musician for political reasons is
> >> doing nothing but depriving himself of that music...
> >
> >Once again, didn't India boycott South African cricket team? Pakistan
> >also boycotted SA cricketers . When they were banned they had one of
> >the greatest teams ever. People willingly deprived themselves of
those
> >great cricketers like Graeme Pollock and Barry Richards.
> >
> >> point and case RAIS KHAN..he said
> >> some pretty wild things when he left India...but BEIEVE me when he
> >> comes to Calcutta to perform...his shows are sold out within a
matter
> >> of hours...Calcutta people dont care about POLITICS..they care
about
> >> MUSIC..and nothing else...
> >>
> >It is well known that Calcutta people don't care about politics.
Swapan
> >Dasgupta, a bong himself, has frequently written about bankruptcy of
> >Bengal politics. When bengal produced Raja Rammohan Roy, Ramakrishna
> >Paramhans, Vivekanand, it was said that what Bengal thinks today,
India
> >thinks tomorrow. Unfortunately India stopped thinking with Bengal in
> >Subhashchandra Bose's time. Today, Jyoti Basu is a living testimony
> >that what world thought 50 years ago and has by now discredited,
Bengal
> >thinks today.
> >
> >> JUST MY 2 CENTS..
> >>
> >Say 2 roubles. Your currency is fake. Produced by ISI ???
> >
> >- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
> >
> >
ferhan...@my-deja.com
naniwadekar <nan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <8t3drc$iv4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > some lentil eating guru-pandit meditating in the jungle.
>
> what is wrong with a guru-pandit meditating in the jungle ?
do you
have
> a preference for ganja-smoking talibani politician who bans music ?
than the meditaor
>
> > Consider yourself lucky that we came
> > around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north,
>
they want w/ it. I don't listen to South Indian Music. I can't relate.
>
> >
> > How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> > Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc.
>
> considered himself lucky that a brahmin (Ravi Shankar) agreed to marry
> his daughter. He was a ninth generation muslim. Originally Hindu.
> 2. Bade Ghulam was desparate for Indian passport. Deodhar guruji tried
> to help him get it. Morarji was the catalyst as BGAK became Indian.
> 3. Bismillah told that he was condemned by Iranian Mullah for
> practising music. YOU are lucky you were influenced by Indian music,
as
> Quran, Aurangzeb and Taliban have spoken against it. How can you call
> ICM lucky? It has always been doing fine.
> 4. Alladiyan Khan sahib called himself Brahmin of Shandilya gotra. He
> wore sacred thread. His funeral was boycotted by muslims in mumbai.
> Funeral of famous muslim musicians were attended by thousands of
> muslims those days. When shri Deodhar and Kumar Gandharva joined
> Alladiya sahib's funeral, there were 8 to 10 people in it.
>
> > or else (but for Islamic influence) you'd be listening to some
monkey
> > pluking an ektara and mumbling some chants.
> > (Ok settle down everyone else......thats a bit extreme...I know...
>
> When Mohd Rafi chanted "Hari Om" in "Man Tadpat hari darshan ko aaj"
> (Baiju Bawra), was he being a mumbling brahminised idiot? Monkey
> plucking ektara? That is not "a bit extreme". It is complete garbage.
Settle down Nani sahib, just having fun. I've said before that I
repsect, acknowledge and appreciate the hindu tradition and
it's influence in Hindustani Music. Nontheless...you know it, Rajan
knows it, the monkey knows it, and the starving guru-pandit in the
jungle knows that Hindustani music would not be performed on the same
instrumets, be as refined, or be presented as it today had it not been
for the influence of the glorius Islamic culture on the
history Pakistani/Indo subcontinet.
Cheers.
Ferhan...P.S. Mukherjee sahib was amazing, no? Hameer was my favorite.
>
> - nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >tendencies for just a minute. Can you honestly deny the numerous
> >influences Islamic culture and muslims brought to hindustani music?
> >Amir Khusrow,? Mian Tansen? Sidhar Khan? These were innovators who
>
> within the Indian tradition. They had been in India long enough
> to have imbibed the Hindu essense. They were Indians in every
> sense of the word. Khusro himself writes glowingly of the Indian
> music of his time. Tansen, by most accounts, was a Hindu.
> It is India that civilized the earlier Islamic brutes. You have
> it backwards like every uncouth illiterate Paki mullah.
Hindu essense my ass. Muslims began dominating parts of the subcontinet
as early as the eighth century.Muhammad Ibn Qasim arrived in Sindh and
starting fixing up the infidels right quick. Islamic culture was defined
and present in the subcontinet long before your monkeys even knew what
an ektara was. Khusrow's presense and innovations at the court of
Allaudin Khilji, or the darbar of Nizamudin Auliya has nothing to do w/
your hindu essense.(would that be the rotting ghee stench from your
hair?)
>
> >How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> >Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc. I
>
> All fine musicians. But they don't share your Paki mullah view.
> BGAK, Allauddin and Bismillah actively recognized the Hindu
> antecedents of Indian music.
They also recognized the muslim contributions as well.
>
> >Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
>
> I agree. Quarterdicked mullahs and books don't go together.
Circumcision is good hygeine. I recomend it to you and all kafirs. I bet
Rowell was circumcised also.
Ferhan
ferhan...@my-deja.com
kanek...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8t3drc$iv4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > pandit meditating in the jungle. Consider yourself lucky that we
came
> > around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north, or else
> > you'd be listening to some monkey pluking an ektara and mumbling
some
> > chants.
>
> Look what has happened to you since you became pakis - women put
> under burkhas , men turned into frothing jehadis and of course the
> whole place run by generals (the current one was not even born
there)
Damn those monkeys!!!! I bet RAW sent them to spy!!!!!!!!
Women in Burkhas is better than forcing them to jump in a fire after
their deceased husband. Hindus have no right to talk about the ethical
treatment of women considering their history. The frothing jehadis are
the only hope the Kashmiris have against the raping, pillaging, pagan
Hindu army in Kashmir. Musharraf vs Vajpayee??? We should set up a
boxing fight. Musharraf would kick his fat Bhramin ass.
>
> > How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> > Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc. I
> > could fill pages with names. Did these musicians not have an
influence
> > on how our music is presented and appreciated today? Muslims are
much
> > more than just practitioners in this art form. Go to south india if
> > you want to listen to -as you put it- "Hindu music rooted in the
Hindu
> > tradition"
>
> go to afghanistan/iran/arabia if you want to listen to "your" music
> if the mullahs let you that is.
I love Persian and Arabian music!!!!. After all I am able to recognise
the influence it has had on our own classical music. Mullahs can say
whatever the hell they want about music, they know about as much as
Rajan does.
>
> > >
> > "We should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and
> > shape our classical music as it is presented today."
>
> the thing that's out of the blender is your brain.
Thats witty.
>
> > Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and developed the plans(I
> > know
> > they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra
Fort...Badshai
> > Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
> > retaining their essential character" I know that tandoori boti-kabab
>
> No you moron - your muslim ancestors plundered the hindu
architecture
> shamelessly. The mosque around qutab minar for instance - plundered
> jain pillars used for the structure.
Boo hoo. Hindus Muslims and Sikhs have all acted dispicibly in the past
concerning places of worship. Most recently-Babri Masjid.
>
> > Or were these snatched up also by the jungle-
> > dwelling guru-pandit? Ask the monkey. They were friends.
> >
> Ask the bastard-spawning mullah. He of course will have nothing to
> do with music or wine ...
Mullahs can say whatever the hell they want. You all seem to be more
concerned w/ them than we are. We just ignore them. They have no
authority.
>
> >
> > Mentally Bhraminised, bangle-wearing, want-a-be pandit-gurus are so
> > jealous of the culturally rich muslim influence on their worthless
> > everyday lives that they sit in sunnyvale all day long plagirising
> > worthless books and flipping through a thesaurus, in an attempt to
> > sound like some frickin genius on a chat group.
>
> Mentally castrated paki mullah - who thinks he is descended from
> arabia - you are incapable of a single original thought.
Ohhh I see.... Original thoughts right???? Try and come up with your own
insults if you want to talk about originality."Paki mullah" has been
played out and over-used by your daddy Rajanjee long ago
>
> > Nah..., I'll flip through my copy of the "Padshanama" instead. Your
> > Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
> >
> > Khudahafiz,
> > Ferhan Qureshi
>
> flip away ... No doubt in it you will read that islam bans music,
> that women are meant to be covered up and barbaric jehad is the
> only thing worthwhile.
I guess you're the mullah since you seem to know more about Islam. Long
live the jehadis. There struggle is benevolent.
>
> cheers,
> Shri Rajan worshiper.
ferhan...@my-deja.com
> >In article <8t2o9...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> > Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> >
> >Consider yourself lucky that we came
> >around to the subcontinent and fixed things up in the north, or else
> >you'd be listening to some monkey pluking an ektara and mumbling some
> >chants.
>
the
> local Hindu population? More importantly, who invited you to come and
"fix
> things up"?
I thank god everyday that my ancestors were salvaged from the depths of
idoltry and paganism by some benevolant sufi along the way. Everyone has
been converted at some point.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "monkey pluking an ektara"? It seems
like a
> compliment, if even a Monkey could pluck an ektara, then it seems its
a
> musically advanced country.
Whatever makes you happy......... I guess if monkeys can lift mountains
and vanquish demons plucking an ektara is nothing special.
>
> >Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and developed the plans(I
know
> >they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra Fort...Badshai
> >Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
> >retaining their essential character"
>
> And what's your point here?
Islamic Culture dominates in Nothern India . This is not a result of
"hindu assimilation" as the bangle-clad rajan suggests. It was brought
upon them whether they liked it or not.
>
> >I know that tandoori boti-kabab
> >and that fragrent biriyani soaking in lamb fat was a favorite amongst
> >the ghee-slurping gourmets before muslims spiced up the food around
> >there and made it edible. Or were these snatched up also by the
jungle-
> >dwelling guru-pandit? Ask the monkey. They were friends.
>
> Please explain. What are you trying to say here?
That the monkey and the guru and Rajan bhaai are all friends and
furthermore all share the same mental capacity
>
Khudahafiz
Ferhan Qureshi
> -SS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
jm...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Also, I can't remeber the last time we
> > held a concert to raise funds for a madrassa, or to support the
> > Kashmiri mujahadeen, however since you seem to know about this, if
there
> > ever is one, please inform me as I will be one of the first patrons
in
> > line. Generally we have other methods to raise money for these noble
> > causes.
>
Alhamdulillah!
>
> Regards,
> Jason Mainland
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t4plt$ndq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t49nc$8gp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>
>Settle down Nani sahib, just having fun. I've said before that I
>repsect, acknowledge and appreciate the hindu tradition and
>it's influence in Hindustani Music. Nontheless...you know it, Rajan
>knows it, the monkey knows it, and the starving guru-pandit in the
>jungle knows that Hindustani music would not be performed on the same
>instrumets, be as refined, or be presented as it today had it not been
>for the influence of the glorius Islamic culture on the
>history Pakistani/Indo subcontinet.
If Islamic influence brought glory to to the Indian music, then the Islamic
influence should be able to impart glory to other kinds of music too and
maybe even create its own music from scratch too. Have they in their 1300
years of history ever done it?
Why do you as a Muslim, listen to the music that has was started by the
Kafirs and, by your own admission, tainted by the kafir's contribution? Why
not just listen/practice pure Islamic music which has no adulteration of any
Kafir? You really don't want to put up with names of Raagas after the Hindu
Kafir's Gods like Bhairav, Nat Narayan, Shri, Durga, JaiJaiwanti, do you?
-S
Amit Chatterjee
>
> > go to afghanistan/iran/arabia if you want to listen to "your" music
> > if the mullahs let you that is.
> I love Persian and Arabian music!!!!. After all I am able to recognise
> the influence it has had on our own classical music. Mullahs can say
> whatever the hell they want about music, they know about as much as
> Rajan does.
Let's talk music. From your listening experience, what are the specific
elements of Persian/Arabic music that you consider to have influenced
Hindustani/Pakistani classical music ?
Regards,
Amit
--
######################################################
Amit Chatterjee Telcosoft, INC
Amit.Chatterjee @ telcosoft.com (remove blank spaces)
######################################################
naniwadekar
gajendra <gaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> dont take shots at Jyoti Basu..
Jyoti Basu is incidental to this thread. Let us not dwell on him.
But your central contention was that Calcutta cares only for music. If
that is true, it is a sorry commentary on Calcutta.
Today, with war going on between 2 countries, Paki agents trying to
undermine foundations of peaceful Indian state, and other provocations,
we have a duty to boycott Paki concerts. And their artists are all
third-rate. (Mehdi Hasan and Ghulam Ali are giants. But they are not
ICM artists.) So nobody is going to miss good music.
I am myself ambivalent about the whole business. I don't think Israel
should boycott Wagner Operas simply because he was a Jew-hater. Same
rule applies to our former rulers and their writers like Shakespeare,
Dickens, and others. Would I not read Dickens if he were a Paki (a
laughable thought) ? I think I would read his books.
But there is a diff betn concerts and books / cassettes. Even in the
case of cassettes, if their sale is going to fatten ISI coffers and
finance Madarsas, we must boycott it.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t4thr$qm9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t4hjr$5...@news.or.intel.com>,
>
>I thank god everyday that my ancestors were salvaged from the depths of
>idoltry and paganism by some benevolant sufi along the way.
Either that, or they were forced into converting.
(Interesting that you would mention Sufis, in their times Sufis are/were
rejected by mainstream Islam. Many sufis do not consider themselves to be
Muslims.)
>Everyone has
>been converted at some point.
Some willingly, and some by force.
>> >Oh really???? I guess the hindus drew up and
>> >developed the plans(I
>> >know
>> >they physically built them!) for the Taj Mahal....Agra Fort...Badshai
>> >Mosque....etc, etc..by "assimilating external influences while
>> >retaining their essential character"
>>
>> And what's your point here?
>Islamic Culture dominates in Nothern India . This is not a result of
>"hindu assimilation" as the bangle-clad rajan suggests. It was brought
>upon them whether they liked it or not.
With all due respect, this was true, but it is not true anymore. Since the
fall of the last Mughal emperor "Islam" has been in a state of slow but
prepetual state of decline in Northern India.
-s
naniwadekar
>
> Some willingly, and some by force.
>
converted. For them ,the statement has universal application. As for
converts to Islam, Surinder's statement is misleading. It should read :
Very few willingly. Most by force. Or through ignorance and false
promises.
> >Islamic Culture dominates in Nothern India . This is not a result of
> >"hindu assimilation" as the bangle-clad rajan suggests. It was
> > brought upon them whether they liked it or not.
>
> With all due respect, this was true, but it is not true anymore.
More to the point, what did a religion which could force things,
whether others liked it or not, do to its own people? Why is illiteracy
rife among muslims in India today? Why are women denied education in
Afghanistan? Is Ferhan proud of that?
He has talked about some starving pandit-guru in a jungle. I will get
back to that point in another, less cluttered thread.
The only logical point by Ferhan is : If Islam has burkha, hindus also
had this custom of sati. And how did that custom start? Because
muslim invaders were rapists, Rajput females used to commit JOHAR. If
their husbands were defeated, they preferred to die rather than be
violated by the invading animals. It reflects no credit on Islam. And
sati was in the past. Burkha is getting more popular.
And in liberal societies, women did not enjoy the status 200 years ago
that they enjoy today. When this century began, women had no voting
power (in any country, I think). The only religion which treats women
as shabbily as it did 100 years ago?? In Iran and Afghanistan, things
have gotten worse. But Ferhan has not addressed this point. And he has
not commented on why Quran denounces poetry and music.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
maha...@my-deja.com
I_respect_all posture. Boy !! U r real hypocrite. Ur ignorance about
the history of ICM is visible in ur arrogance. At the same time, u have
some nerve for blaming Indians for descrimination of pakistani
classical musicians ( which is BTW totally untrue). U did not answer my
simple questions asked in my last posting. Pakis have no moral
authority to ask us. WHy the hell do u except us to help u while u r
vomitting this garbage?? Why don't u go and ask ur govt/people first ??
Don't they want to perserve legacy of their ancestor who according to U
taught us ICM ?? Tell them to divert some of the jihad money for this
cause.
Regards,
Maha
In article <8t4q8s$nv3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8t47f...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > ferhan...@my-deja.com writes:
> >
> > >tendencies for just a minute. Can you honestly deny the numerous
> > >influences Islamic culture and muslims brought to hindustani music?
> > >Amir Khusrow,? Mian Tansen? Sidhar Khan? These were innovators who
> >
> > The muslims who contributed to Hindustani music were operating
> > within the Indian tradition. They had been in India long enough
> > to have imbibed the Hindu essense. They were Indians in every
> > sense of the word. Khusro himself writes glowingly of the Indian
> > music of his time. Tansen, by most accounts, was a Hindu.
> > It is India that civilized the earlier Islamic brutes. You have
> > it backwards like every uncouth illiterate Paki mullah.
>
> Hindu essense my ass. Muslims began dominating parts of the
subcontinet
> as early as the eighth century.Muhammad Ibn Qasim arrived in Sindh and
> starting fixing up the infidels right quick. Islamic culture was
defined
> and present in the subcontinet long before your monkeys even knew what
> an ektara was. Khusrow's presense and innovations at the court of
> Allaudin Khilji, or the darbar of Nizamudin Auliya has nothing to do
w/
> your hindu essense.(would that be the rotting ghee stench from your
> hair?)
> >
> > >How about more recently? Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Usttad Allaudin
> > >Khansahib, Vilayet Khansahib, etc, etc,. Bismallah Khan, etc. etc.
I
> >
> > All fine musicians. But they don't share your Paki mullah view.
> > BGAK, Allauddin and Bismillah actively recognized the Hindu
> > antecedents of Indian music.
>
> They also recognized the muslim contributions as well.
> >
> > >Rowell book may not "sit well with my whitewashed history".
> >
> > I agree. Quarterdicked mullahs and books don't go together.
> Circumcision is good hygeine. I recomend it to you and all kafirs. I
bet
> Rowell was circumcised also.
> Ferhan
> >
Arnab Chakrabarty
online fight is not helping us learn about classical music any faster
than we would have.
You are a very good hearted individual, but just like many of us, very
emotional about certain issues, some of which can be justified and some
others, not so easily.
While Rajan Parrikar's style of articulating his thoughts might not
appeal to many, he knows what he is talking about, and is more likely to
hit home on any musical, musicological or music history related issue
than you are, at this point. I would, therefore, suggest that you give
him that respect, and recognize that there is a lot to learn from him.
Believe me, he is not among the bickering dogs of RMIC, and neither are
you. You are just hurt and are letting your anger say things that you do
not mean (or at least, I so hope). Recently, I engaged in a distasteful
duel here, and that too with a friend, and it did not really help me in
any way than to make me realize that there can be multiple viewpoints and
strong convictions that can coexist in a tolerant manner.
While it can never be denied that the contribution of muslim individuals
to Hindustani music is immense and immeasurably large, RAga Sangeet is
essentially hindU in origin, since the dhruvapada (dhrupad) tradition can
be traced back to temple singing before its migrations to the courts of
hinu as well as muslim kings. It must, however, be noted that Hindu and
Muslim identity as we know it today, is essentially a colonial and post
colonial construct. Let me justify this by saying that objectification of
identity is a result of the colonizers' attempt to recognize and study
the colonized, and given the nature of North Indian and Bengali society
in the 14th through the 18th centuries, religious identity was extremely
fuzzy and ambiguous, as a hindu could be as muslim as her next door
muslim neighbor and vice versa. The complexity of identity has never been
recognized, and our modern society, as a victim of partisan politics, is
too immature to acknowledge the intertwined nature of almost all South
Asian RELIGIOUS identities.
Kindly, therefore, do not persist in this online crusade to prove that
"my god had more of an influence in making of this music than yours".
Honestly, it does not matter. The music is here for all of us to revere
(not necessarily by preaching one's personal values, etiquette and guru
bhakti to others), enjoy and cherish, and the contribution of all great
masters, muslim as well as hindu, will always remain with us.
As far as dispelling some of your notions regarding music history, that
might be an educative exercise. Amir Khusrau, Tansen and a lot of such
legends remain very ambiguous, and their direct contributions have not
been recorded. Given the contemporary practice of attributing one's
gharAna, compositions, rAgas (and even underwear, that right, Rajanji?)
to Tansen, bullshitting is also an essential part of our great musical
tradition, and it ought to be learned in the same spirit as we learn
music! Creative lies make your music creative and "naisargik" (natural).
The last area is being researched very intensely by the Indian state's
"national musician" at the moment.
As for Rowell, circumscion and kAfirs, I have two things to add. The book
is not too bad. Second, whether or not circumscion is a hyigene issue is
a deeply contested matter and should be discussed in a forum for the
medical sciences. Calling all non-muslims infidels is the best way to
reveal your deep-rooted dogma to the world. I do not take offense because
I do not care much for religion in practice, and I realize that you are
being emotional.
Okay. Let's get back to Tafu Khan and Pakistani artists. I would like to
add that (I feel) India's music industry gods should make more efforts to
invite and encourage good Pakistani artists as an incentive for them to
remain in the field of classical music. Since classical music is not well
supported in Pakistan, these musicians stray into various other paths
such as ghazal and qawwali (although there are hereditary qawwals anyway)
to make a living. The younger generation of vocalists/instrumentalists
from Pakistan are just not good as far as rAgadarI is concerned. During a
recent meeting with one much hyped Pakistani vocalist from San Francisco,
I requested him to sing a particular bandish in Kamod. He said "bhaiyya,
these ragas should be left to you Indians. I'll sing 'madh kalyan' for
you". Similarly, there is a very talented young sitarist from Lahore who
desperately needs some taleem of ragas. Rais Khan's son, on the other
hand, is doing very well.
Regards,
Arnab
Jason Mainland
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Surrinder Bhaai,I've got nothing against accepting the fact that our
classical music is rich w/ hindu influence. In fact I could care less
whether or not the Rags are named after hindu dieties. I actually find
hinduism quite interesting........in the same way as I view the ancient
Greek and Roman religions as interesting. If I can call a planet
Jupiter, why not call a Rag Bhairav? If you can't accept Muslim
influence why do you put up w/ Rags called Darbari, or Shahana, or
Saazgiri? And while your at it throw out Rag Multani as well for the
hell of it, since it is in Pakistan.
Ferhan Qureshi
>
> -S
ferhan...@my-deja.com
maha...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Well the mask is out now. This gem from Mr. Ferhan exposes his pseudo
> I_respect_all posture. Boy !! U r real hypocrite. Ur ignorance about
> the history of ICM is visible in ur arrogance. At the same time, u
have
> some nerve for blaming Indians for descrimination of pakistani
> classical musicians ( which is BTW totally untrue). U did not answer
my
> simple questions asked in my last posting. Pakis have no moral
> authority to ask us. WHy the hell do u except us to help u while u r
> vomitting this garbage?? Why don't u go and ask ur govt/people
first ??
> Don't they want to perserve legacy of their ancestor who according to
U
> taught us ICM ?? Tell them to divert some of the jihad money for this
> cause.
No can do right now. Jihad money is being spent wisely.
ferhan...@my-deja.com
> >In article <8t27f8$k...@news.or.intel.com>,
>
> Ferhan Sahib:
>
> A few disagreements with you in the post. I hope I do not offend you,
my aim
> is to have a polite civil discussion. I hope you don't accrod me the
same
> verbal onslought as you did to Rajan.
Surrinder bhaai,I have not and wouldn't dish out verbal onsloughts
unless they were deserved. And I probably still wouldn't unless I
absolutely despised someone's guts, which explains why Pandit Rajan
recieved the onslaught he did. I like and enjoy civil discussion, even
if it gets a little heated at times.
Both the ancestor scenarios you gave are true for Pakistanis, For some
either one or the other, or for most a combination of the two. Either
wayu it doesn't matter. The music is as much a part of our history as
it is any Indian's.
>
> >Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
> >Indian music is indian and Pakistani music is pakistani.
>
> Except that this "Pakistani Classical Music" is IDENTICAL to Indian
> classical music. It would make sense to call it by a different name if
> Pakistani Music evolved into something different than Indian
Classical. This
> could have been a possibility, but with rising Talebanization of
Pakistan,
> Islam/Quran's ban on Music, it is highly unlikely. This is
unfortunate, but
> that is how it seems.
You are correct, essentially they are the same, but if it is from
Pakistan, it naturally should be reffered to as Pakistani.
>
> >Anything that
> >has Islamic cultural influence on the sub-continent: food, music,
> >architecture, literature, is part of our Pakistani culture, and we
are
> >proud to recognize that. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who denies
the
> >hindu cultural tradition in the influence of classical music. But we
> >should all accept that a blend of cultures helped forge and shape our
> >classical music as it is presented today.
>
> Indian Classical music has been in existence for much much longer
than even
> before Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was born. The Islamic influence that
you talk
> about is nothing but small incremental changes on that monolith. We
> appreciate those contributions, but in the overall scheme of things
it would
> not have made too much of an difference. If you do a thought
experiment, and
> delete all Islamic influence, I think our Classical music would be
just as
> fine. Muslims played came to Indian Classical music and have played
by its
> rules. If Islamic influence has been the mainstay, or even as
important as
> you suggest, why did it not develop into something substantial in ANY
> Islamic country? Why don't we find some great classical musical
tradition in
> Arabia, or Persia, or Turkey, or Northern Africa, or Central Asia or
> anywhere in the 2-3 Billion Muslim world?
All these areas you mention have rich musical traditions. I can send
you a suggested listening list if you request. Especially with regards
to the Persians, they have an extremely complex and rich classical
tradition which is practiced and carried on today. There are many great
artists performing (i.e. Shajarian, Majid Kiani, Majid Khaldaj,
Muhhamad Reza Lotfi, Kayan Kalhar, Faramz-y-Payvar, Syed Ali Khan,
etc.,etc.)Their system called the RAdif, is very analogous to ours. The
dastgah can be compared to a raga. I'll forward you an article on
Iranian classical music if you so desire, and mention some amazing
recordings easily available.In fact all over the Islamic world you will
find good music- plenty of it resulting a blend of what was there
before the coming of Islam, and what the muslims added to it. Much like
our case here. Nonetheless I agree with you, Pakistani/Indian Classical
Music is on the top.
>
> To give more analogies: just because there are 30-50% Indians in all
Silicon
> Valley startups and companies, it doesn't mean that the Silicon Valley
> phenomena is actually an Indian phenomena. Indians immigrated and
played by
> the American way of doing things.
>
> >Actually I prefer to use the
> >term hindustani music when I talk about it in general amongst my
Indian
> >and Pakistani friends. Unfortunately many Pakistani's disagree w/ me
on
> >that point which is wrong. I like that term because it doesn't
> >neccesarily denote a nationality(some may argue otherwise).
>
> Hindustan means India. I don't know how you can argue that it
doesn't. The
> only thing about this name, as opposed to the name "India"
or "Bharat", is
> that it was given by the Muslim invaders. Does that make it more
palatable?
That was always my justification for my usage of it. I'll consider
reconsidering.
>
> >When I speak
> >about Pakistani classical music I am simply refering to classical
music
> >as performed by Pakistanis.
>
> What do you refer to the music of a Pakistani playing Western
Classical
> music? Pakistani classical music?
Nope, it is foreign to us. Pakistani classical music is ours.
I sometimes wonder if this quibble about
> name due to a desire for Geographical accuracy, or due to a hatred for
> anything Hindu?
Geographical and national accuracy. I certainly do not despise
hindus,hinduism or hindu influence at all. Just because I cracked a few
jokes in retaliation, everyone thinks I'm a hindu hater. If a Pakistani
artist claimed the music was entirely Islamic in nature, I'd let him
have it too. You can't just change around and ignore historical facts
because you fell you have been wronged by certain group of people.
As far as all the bashing, I was just playing around, and even offered
a disclaimer. I'm just trying to piss-off Rajanjee because I hate
bangle-wearing egotists. Everyone is all worked up. My point was to
find some Altaaf Hussein Khan recordings.
Namashkar
Ferhan Qureshi
>
> -SS
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Amit Chatterjee <Amit.Ch...@telcosoft.com> wrote:
> ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > > go to afghanistan/iran/arabia if you want to listen to "your"
music
> > > if the mullahs let you that is.
> > I love Persian and Arabian music!!!!. After all I am able to
recognise
> > the influence it has had on our own classical music. Mullahs can say
> > whatever the hell they want about music, they know about as much as
> > Rajan does.
>
> Let's talk music. From your listening experience, what are the
specific
> elements of Persian/Arabic music that you consider to have influenced
> Hindustani/Pakistani classical music ?
Well mostly Persian music. First and foremost is instrumentation.
The sitar is a blend betweem the Persin sehtar and the Indian Veena.
The tied frets, order of strings, shape, and plectrum are results of
Persian influence.The sarode is essentially a greatly-refined rabab, an
insrtument of Afghani and Persian origin.I'm sure Arnaab bhaai or
someone else more qualified can eleaborate on this.
The names of both these intruments are also Persian, or farsi in
origin, sarode means "melody" in farsi, sehtar means three strings. I
must also mention sheinai means "Royal flute" when the syllables are
broken down in Farsi. The name tanpura, was also adopted from the name
of a Persian and Arabian instrument, the Tambour.
The Islamic darbars, and the court life in general under the glorious
Mughal Dynasty were also resposible for a change towards the chamber
presentaion of this music as an art form rather than a religious ritual
sung in temples. The royal muslim courts also resulted in the founding
of many gharanas of which many modern musicians claim descent. The
first recognised Tabla Player and grand-daddy of all the tabla gharanas
was also a muslim, Ustaad Sidhar Khan. The tarana, and khyaal, two of
the dominant vocal genres were developed, (primarily due to Hazarat
Amir Khusrow's innovations) by muslims to please the muslim kings, who
were bored by the dhrupads, or didn't want to hear songs praising the
hindu dieties.Many famous bandishes sung by both muslims and hindus,
praise the Mughal rulers,the greatness of Allah, and our revered saints.
(i.e. "Hazarat Khwaja Sangh Kheliye Damal")
These elements mentioned above have undoubtedly had a huge impact on
Indian/Pakistani classical music.
Take care.
Ferhan Qureshi
>
> Regards,
> Amit
>
> --
> ######################################################
> Amit Chatterjee Telcosoft, INC
> Amit.Chatterjee @ telcosoft.com (remove blank spaces)
> ######################################################
>
>
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Rajan P. Parrikar
>than you are, at this point. I would, therefore, suggest that you give
>him that respect, and recognize that there is a lot to learn from him.
Arnab,
Now why would anyone want "respect" from the gutter Paki savage?
Let him just be. He will keep begging of us to have Pakitrash
included in our culture. Sorry, the only place for katloo brutes
is the zoo. Now stand by and close the window - the mullah
is going to be back with gutterspeak, one of the shining examples
of Paki 'culture.'
Warm regards,
r
ferhan...@my-deja.com
Arnab Bhaai,
I really don't give a shit how much rajan knows or can copy from one of
his books. He has sickened me countless times on this forum, and no one
mentions shit, or even sticks up for themselves. Pretending to be a
scholar does not give any monkey the right to repeatadly verbally
assault people publicly. He crosses the line more frequently on RMIC
more than anyone, so in retaliation, why shouldn't I do the same. I
don't mean to offend anybody aside from him, his half-witted shishyas
and his ass-kissers, and I offered my disclaimer once it got out of
hand...you and my other friends who know me on RMIC are well aware of
my sincere feelings about hindus/muslims and Pakistan/India. I've got
absolutely nothing aginst hindus or Indian people(the govt. is another
matter). I eagerly befriend them, but I love fighting fire with fire,
and if coaxed will not hesitate to do so in a manner equally or more
insulting than that which I am reacting too. If this could have been
privately as I initially tried to instigate on previous flame wars w/
guru Rajan, I could have spared everyone who I didn't intend to offend
the insults. Ustaad Rajan was far from interested in a private email
conversation, as he would much rather bait me publicly.
I'm really not arguing "mine is better than yours" or anything like
that. Throughout this entire thread I've recognised the influences of
both cultures. Just setting the record straight for those so easily led
astray by rajan's barking.
> As far as dispelling some of your notions regarding music history,
that
> might be an educative exercise. Amir Khusrau, Tansen and a lot of such
> legends remain very ambiguous, and their direct contributions have not
> been recorded. Given the contemporary practice of attributing one's
> gharAna, compositions, rAgas (and even underwear, that right,
Rajanji?)
> to Tansen, bullshitting is also an essential part of our great musical
> tradition, and it ought to be learned in the same spirit as we learn
> music! Creative lies make your music creative and "naisargik"
(natural).
> The last area is being researched very intensely by the Indian state's
> "national musician" at the moment.
Yeah I know about the bullshitting and exagerrating....but Tansen and
Khusrow were innovaters nontheless........Who is the national musican?
>
> As for Rowell, circumscion and kAfirs, I have two things to add. The
book
> is not too bad. Second, whether or not circumscion is a hyigene issue
is
> a deeply contested matter and should be discussed in a forum for the
> medical sciences. Calling all non-muslims infidels is the best way to
> reveal your deep-rooted dogma to the world. I do not take offense
because
> I do not care much for religion in practice, and I realize that you
are
> being emotional.
Once again, I'm just antagonising-back.....you should know that....
Kafir, infidel,hindu, muslim, shinto or inuit ; as long as you're a
benevolant person, you're all set and will be taken care of in whatever
manner you believe in. All religions are good in their true spirit,
however unfortunately it is rare that they are practised as such,
especially in the sub-continent. I'm thankful that I'm a muslim, and
happy for everyone who is secure in their faith. They all lead to same
path if practiced properly. Once again...........the kafir-infidel
crap...........I'm just having fun and talking shit. Some gorah is
starting to get involved though and he's pissing me off. I think I'll
just ignore him.
>
> Okay. Let's get back to Tafu Khan and Pakistani artists. I would like
to
> add that (I feel) India's music industry gods should make more
efforts to
> invite and encourage good Pakistani artists as an incentive for them
to
> remain in the field of classical music. Since classical music is not
well
> supported in Pakistan, these musicians stray into various other paths
> such as ghazal and qawwali (although there are hereditary qawwals
anyway)
> to make a living. The younger generation of vocalists/instrumentalists
> from Pakistan are just not good as far as rAgadarI is concerned.
During a
> recent meeting with one much hyped Pakistani vocalist from San
Francisco,
> I requested him to sing a particular bandish in Kamod. He
said "bhaiyya,
> these ragas should be left to you Indians. I'll sing 'madh kalyan' for
> you". Similarly, there is a very talented young sitarist from Lahore
who
> desperately needs some taleem of ragas. Rais Khan's son, on the other
> hand, is doing very well.
There are quite a few good artists from Pakistan currently performing
aside from the ones you mentioned:
Ustaad Ghulam Hussein Shagan(vocalist)
Ustaad Fateh Ali Khansahib(vocalist)
Ustaad Ashraaf Sharif Kahn(sitarist)
Ustaad Salamat Hussein Khan(bansuri)
Ustaad Allah Rakha Khan(sarangi)
Ustaad Salamat Ali Khan and his son Shafqat Ali Khan
Ustaad Tari
Ustaad Ghulam Abaas Khan
Ustaad Hamid Ali Khan(vocalist)
Also in the light genres, (qawalli, thumri, and ghazals) there are
countless maestros.
Take care,
Ferhan
Rajan P. Parrikar
>whether or not the Rags are named after hindu dieties. I actually find
>hinduism quite interesting........in the same way as I view the ancient
>Greek and Roman religions as interesting.
Yes, mullah, Hinduism and the Greek and Roman religions
are very interesting. Islam, on the other hand, is
barbaric trash to be confined to the dustbin of history.
Now mullah, I command you to swear at and abuse me. Bring
in copulation with mothers, sisters, 9-year old girls and
everything else that your holy book allows and let the sewage
flow. This is a command and thou shalt not disobey.
Warm regards,
r
AKTALWAR
>Yeah I know about the bullshitting and exagerrating....but Tansen and
>Khusrow were innovaters nontheless........Who is the national musican?
Pt. Tansen was a Brahmin. Of the 27 leading Hindu musicians of North India
brought to Akbars' court - (most of them unwillingly, especially Tansen) 26
were converted to Islam. Tansen had enough respect and status to resist the
pressure to convert. His children were, however converted. (Some think that he
was converted - although this view is discredited because of the hatred he
generated among some fanatic muslim courtiers - in any case he was already a
great musician before any conversion). He was also not the greatest musician of
the time. At least one other, Tansen's guru Swami Haridas, a devotee of Lord
Krishna and one of those lentil eaters that you seem to despise, was far above
him. When Akbar heard Swami Haridas, he asked Tansen why his singing was so
insipid compared to his guru's. Tansen' reply was "Your majesty I sing in the
court of a mighty ruler, while my teacher sings in the court of God" (This is
quoted in Bonnie Wade's book "Imaging Sound"). I think much confusion is caused
because Akbar and his courtiers called him Mian. They were Persian speakers and
chose Mian instead of Pandit. I think we should correct this anomaly and call
him Pt. Tansen in due respect to his soul.
Akbar's court also had nine Persian musicians. But the important musicians were
the Indians, even though they sang in Indian languages such as Sanskrit and
Brajbhasha, both important languages in the Hindu religion, and not in Persian,
the language of the courtiers. In the opinion of the courtiers and court
historians own opinion Indian music was far superior.
Amir Khusrau was born in India and had a Hindu mother. He learnt music from
Hindu musicians including Gopal Nayak. While he was a respected musician in the
muslim courts, his contributions are questionable. Some people attribute sitar
and Khayal to him, but sitar and Khayal gayaki developed near the end of muslim
rule. In fact Khayal gayaki actually reached is refinement under the guidance
and patronage of the Hindu kingdom of Gwalior.
It is also alleged that the ragas that Khusrau is credited with were actually
already in existence, only their names were changed in the muslim courts. A
notable example is Yaman. (Much as Kanhara, a raga of carnatic origin has been
named Darbari and Mian has been added to Todi, Malhar etc.)
Both Tansen and Khusrau, although they were great musicians, have been
glorified beyond their true talents because they were in important courts where
much of the history of the time was written.
The fact that so many leading Hindu musicians in Akbar's time and later were
converted to Islam is the reason why many of our great musicians are muslims.
This has caused the myth of Islamic contributions to our music.
Even arfter many generations as muslims, most of these musicians did not shed
their Hindu roots. They continued to do many very un-Islamic things such as
chanting Sanskrit mantras in private and singing the glories of Hindu Gods and
Goddesses. As examples, Ustad Allauddin Khan was an ardent devotee of goddesses
Kali and Saraswati. I understand Alladiya Khan Saheb chanted the Gayatri mantra
daily. Dagar brothers sing almost exclusively of the glories of Hindu gods and
goddesses.
Today, music is in decline in Pakistan. There are hardly any music scholars
there. So there is much misinformation. One Pakistani TV commentator even made
the stupid remark that music is "our" gift to India.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>his books. He has sickened me countless times on this forum, and no one
No one gives a rat's ass to what a buttbrained, quarterdicked
rabid paki mullah dog thinks. Illiterate Paki rats don't get
to decide anything here.
Once again, mullah, I command you to swear at and abuse me.
Let the Islamic sewage flow.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>the insults. Ustaad Rajan was far from interested in a private email
>conversation, as he would much rather bait me publicly.
No email from you, as I have warned you earlier publicly. No
private conversations with buttbrained Paki savages. I am
happy to see I have crashed your operating system so badly.
Mullah, I command you again to swear at and abuse me.
Warm regards,
r
Warren Senders
> what are the specific
> elements of Persian/Arabic music that you consider to have influenced
> Hindustani/Pakistani classical music ?
Rather than quibbling about influence, try looking instead for
structural and conceptual parallels in the various traditions.
These are many and undeniable.
For example, many performances in various Arabic classical idioms
begin with an unaccompanied melodic prelude which has a formal
function analogous to that of alap in Hindustani tradition.
For example, both Arabic and Hindustani classical forms integrate the
verbal and kinesthetic responses of trained listeners into
the performance context.
For example, both Arabic and Hindustani classical forms emphasize
melodic lines and rhythmic structures over harmonic conceptions
(as in the West).
There are many more such parallels, and they are
not mere coincidence, but a function of the fact that, seen in a larger
geographical and historical context, both Indian and Middle-Eastern
classical forms partake of some of the same aesthetic values.
The causalities inherent in this equation are reflections of
various historical forces that have to do with trade routes,
political and military activities, and the influences of the dominant
religious forces of the time.
With this as a given, can this unseemly squabbling come to an end?
Nobody who has heard Oum Kalthoum, Farid el-Atrache or the wonderful
Syrian singer Sabri Moudallal (among hundreds of superb musicians)
could remain unmoved.
WS
Framedrums
>first recognised Tabla Player and grand-daddy of all the tabla gharanas
>was also a muslim, Ustaad Sidhar Khan.
Not to mention that the word "tabla" is Arabic for drum. Something I always
have to clarify to my Arab friends is which tabla I'm bringing to play.
AKTALWAR
><Amit.Ch...@telcosoft.com> wrote:
>> Let's talk music. From your listening experience, what are the
>specific
>> elements of Persian/Arabic music that you consider to have influenced
>> Hindustani/Pakistani classical music ?
>
>Well mostly Persian music. First and foremost is instrumentation.
>
>The sitar is a blend betweem the Persin sehtar and the Indian Veena.
>The tied frets, order of strings, shape, and plectrum are results of
>Persian influence.The sarode is essentially a greatly-refined rabab, an
>insrtument of Afghani and Persian origin.I'm sure Arnaab bhaai or
>someone else more qualified can eleaborate on this.
>The names of both these intruments are also Persian, or farsi in
>origin, sarode means "melody" in farsi, sehtar means three strings.
In comparison to the Indian Sitar, Persian sitar is a crude instrument
unsuitable for ICM. An instrument like the sitar could only develop in India in
an environment of great musical heritage. Music played on it is Indian with
techniques borrowed heavily from the rudra veena.
Sarod reached its high level of refinement
under the guidance of Maharajas of Gwalior ,something that would not have
happened in Iran.
We have also adopted the violin, and we did not even have to refine it - it was
already a highly refined instrument. Yet we don't have westerners telling us of
their great influence on our music because of this.
>The Islamic darbars, and the court life in general under the glorious
>Mughal Dynasty were also resposible for a change towards the chamber
>presentaion of this music as an art form rather than a religious ritual
>sung in temples.
Are you suggesting that carnatic music did not reach an art form?
After the destruction of the temples by muslim invaders, music had already been
taken to courts by the Hindu kings, before the Mughals. Maharaja Mansingh Tomar
and his wife Mrignayani had created an institute where many musicians including
Tansen were nurtured. Since Sanskrit had gone into decline because of
destruction of universities, temples, burning of libraries etc. by the muslim
invaders, and because court language in the biggest courts was now Persian,
this institute developed many compositions in easily understood languages like
brajbhasha. Dhrupad reached a high level of refinement at this institute. The
great work that was being done by this institute came to an end when Akbar had
all the sixteen musicians brought to his court. To him it was a matter of
prestige and glamour to have these musicians and music became happy hour
entertainment for his court. The decline of Indian music started thereafter. By
the time of Shahjahan, music had reached prostitution houses. Aurangzeb,
another great Mughal, banned music - and he ruled for 49 years.
>The royal muslim courts also resulted in the founding
>of many gharanas of which many modern musicians claim descent.
India always had great musicians, Gharanas or no Gharanas. Except that there
was a problem with Gharanas. Music exposure had been available to many common
people through temples and "lentil eating" guru's like Swami Haridas would have
taught anyone. In contrast Gharana musicians were very secretive. With the
decline of royal patronage music almost died until the efforts of "lentil
eating" Maharashtrian Brahmins and others. After independence, policies of
Govt. of India also helped a lot. So finally, the damage is finally being
repaired.
I suggest that you reconsider your attitude of disdain towards lentil eaters.
Sajjad Khaliq
: Plese continue to boycott Pakistani Artists.The indians we wish to
: invite to concerts and appreciate our artists are the kind who can
: maturely make a distinction between cultural and political issues. No
: skin of our backs if you don't want to appreciate our talented
: artists..... By the way there is nothing wrong with our artists being
: recognized as Pakistani Classical musicans, as if they are from
: Pakistan, then there music is Pakistani. Also when I suggeested the
: support of the Indian Community I wasn't clear,....... I meant abroad,
: especially here in the States.....I understand why Indians and
: Pakistanis don't promote each others artists in their respective
: countries for obvious reasons, especially those already outlined by
: other posters in this thread. Also, I can't remeber the last time we
: held a concert to raise funds for a madrassa, or to support the
: Kashmiri mujahadeen, however since you seem to know about this, if there
: ever is one, please inform me as I will be one of the first patrons in
: line. Generally we have other methods to raise money for these noble
: should visit Lahore sometime. It's a nice place. You are welcome there.
: Ferhan Qureshi
There's no such thing as "Pakistani Classical Music". How can a distinct
genre develop in 52 years when this genre took hundreds of years to
evolve? For that matter, they can't even sort out their political and
economic agenda in 52 years!!
Sajjad Khaliq
: Sometime in the eighties I drove a long distance to hear a concert of Salamat
: organised by some Indians (NRIs) because I had enjoyed listening to
: Salamat/Nazakat recordings in the sixties in India. To my great disappointment
: Salamat's classical performance was also a great
: disappointment. He was definitely not the Salamat I heard in the recordings.
Although some felt after Salamat Ali Khan split with his brother Nazakat
in 1975, this was a good thing as Salamat was really the lead singer. The
fact is Salamat's decline began when he split with his brother Nazakat.
The situation at present is that Salamat is in quite ill health, I have
heard, and has not toured in the last few years.
AKTALWAR
>Not to mention that the word "tabla" is Arabic for drum. Something I always
>have to clarify to my Arab friends is which tabla I'm bringing to play.
>
The unique sound of the tabla is due to the center weighting of the mambrane,
as in other indian instruments such as the Pakhawaj.
Names don't matter. After seven centuries of muslim rule many Persian and
Arabic words have become part of our language. This has little to do with
music.
Framedrums
>Sorry, the only place for katloo brutes
>is the zoo.
>Warm regards,
Mr. Parrikar,
I write to ask that you refrain from honoring such base comments that others
send out in their various posts. Many individuals here have nothing of real
foundation to offer to the other readers, but you have offered a wealth of
information to us. These comments that you answer with are beneath your
stature. Jason Mainland, Ashok and others seem to live here only to create
strife and expound upon their lazy views of others.
It's a very savory thing to bite into when you get into petty insults. It's
as if we can't help it. The insults in front of us are much like a boiling
steak to a dog. We can't resist them and they hurt us.
Please save such wit for posts that are more worthy of your stature.
CS
AKTALWAR
>Although some felt after Salamat Ali Khan split with his brother Nazakat
>in 1975, this was a good thing as Salamat was really the lead singer. The
>fact is Salamat's decline began when he split with his brother Nazakat.
>The situation at present is that Salamat is in quite ill health, I have
>heard, and has not toured in the last few years.
>
>
Someone just told me that Salamat's decline occured because of a stroke. This
is very sad because he was definitely a great singer in his prime.
Framedrums
>Arabic words have become part of our language. This has little to do with
>music.
This post was superfluous. Please refrain from disecting everything some
writes. There's no need to clarify that which I may already know. The post
was a follow up to the comments made about the origins of other instruments
whose origins were equally influence by Arab, Persian, and Indian cultures.
The remaining comment was simply to say that I often mention "tabla" in
reference to the Indian tabla to people who think I'm referring to the Arab
tabla.
I would also disagree that it has little to do with music, as the music is
directly affected by the petty arguements over such names and cultural
ownerships of the instruments and stylings.
bdixit
classical music tradition usually associated and practiced in the Northern
part of Indian subcontinent (Pakistan included), and sometimes referred to as
Hindustani classical music), one is unfair because the entire South Indian
classical music (i.e. Karnatic or Caranatic classical music) is not
included. When a Western musician like the late John Higgins performs South
Indian classical music anywhere on the face of this earth, it as South Indian
classical, or Carnatic classical music and is recognized as such. Similarly
when M. S. Gopalkrishnan presents raga Jayjaywanti it remains Hindustani
classical music. So when a musician from Pakistan, irrespective of the fact
where he/she wa born, presents raga Yaman or Durga, or Basant in the North
Indian classical tradition and following the rules and grammar of North Indian
classical music, it is recognized and should be should be accepted as North
Indian classical music. Similarly if a Pakistani musician (or any musician
from any country on the face of this earth) presents a Thyagaraja krithi, he
is presenting Carnatic classical music, no matter where he is staying on the
face of this earth. At present there in NO Pakistani classical music which
has its own distinct grammar, vocabulary, bandishes, melodic structure etc.
May be 100 yr. from now, or way in the future, some insightful musician in
Pakistan will come up with a distinct system of classical music, and then all
those who will learn it and present it to others and who can recognize it as
distinct from whatever is practiced today will see the birth of a NEW form of
classical music. Even if a musician from Pakistan composes a new bandish in
raga Yaman following the grammar of North Indian classical music, and presents
it in Pakistan or anywhere on the face of this earth, it will be and should be
recognized as belonging to the North Indian classical music. And if he
composes a krithi in the same way did Thyagaraja, and presents it anywhere on
the face of this earth, it will be and should recognized as one belonging to
Carnatic classical music. All arguments about what influence Persian music
had, and whose darbar supported whom, and who paid the bills, and whether
names like Darbari is used a prefix or sufix are totally irrelevant. Jazz
music is Jazz music no matter who presents it, Opera is opera even a young
Maharshtrian girl in Mumbai sings it. Just like Urdu is Urdu no matter where
and who speaks it. Masala Dosa is masala dosa no matter who makes it and
where and how it is made No questions. There in no distinct Pakistani
classical music. Fifty years of geographical separation does not overnight
create a NEW system of classical music. ..... Balwant Dixit
Sajjad Khaliq wrote:
--
Balwant N. Dixit
University of Pittsburgh
541-2 Salk Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15261
Tel No:(412) 648-8582
FAX No:(412) 648-8475
naniwadekar
akta...@aol.com (AKTALWAR) wrote:
> I suggest that you reconsider your attitude of disdain towards lentil
> eaters.
>
Ferhan has already violated many commands of "jehadis", whose "noble"
cause is so dear to him.
Recently I have met him twice at concerts in Bay Area. The first one
featured sitar by a pedigree brahmin, with as brahminical a face as you
will ever see. His arse, alas, is not fat. But he did bring it with him
to the concert. Ferhan seemed to tolerate it with great fortitude.
The second concert was in, Allah forbid, a temple. You must eat only
lentil there. Meat is forbidden. Again, Ferhan disobeyed talibani
ideology. There was no talk of idol-smashing, though he is glad he has
been rescued from idol worship. Many brahmin arses were on display,
some of them (must have been) fat. But he claims he could pay attention
to music and temporarily forget his obsession with fat brahmin arses.
His ancestors were very likely hindu. Interest in ICM
has caused him to ignore Quran's objections to music. With some more
interest and some more time, maybe he will start wearing a thread like
Alladiya Khan sahib. No wonder Aurangzeb banned all music. Muslims
imbibe un-Islamic way of life when they take to ICM (or any form of
music). Canny old fox Aurangzeb knew it all too well.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Jason Mainland
Framedrums wrote:
> Mr. Parrikar,
> I write to ask that you refrain from honoring such base comments that others
> send out in their various posts. Many individuals here have nothing of real
> foundation to offer to the other readers, but you have offered a wealth of
> information to us. These comments that you answer with are beneath your
> stature. Jason Mainland, Ashok and others seem to live here only to create
> strife and expound upon their lazy views of others.
>
> It's a very savory thing to bite into when you get into petty insults. It's
> as if we can't help it. The insults in front of us are much like a boiling
> steak to a dog. We can't resist them and they hurt us.
>
> Please save such wit for posts that are more worthy of your stature.
Chris, your continual harping is getting tiring. You are not going to change
RMIC. Get off your high horse with your patronizing appeals. Look around Usenet,
it's all the same. Just now you have brought the topic away from music just like
your average flame post. Your assessment of my contribution here is unbalanced.
Maybe instead of analyzing and judging others' insults, you should dig your teeth
into some of those articles on Libel and Defamation in the Information Age.
Good luck with your crusade.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar
> There in no distinct Pakistani classical music.
Music of Salamat Ali's sons is very distinct. Salamat Sahib was born in
India and became a fine ICM performer. But his sons have nothing to do
with ICM. Maybe they perform Pakistani Classical Music. Of course, no
grammar and beauty is associated with it.
As for raagas having names like Darbari and Bilaskhani, there need be
no objection to that. They came from Swami Haridas stable anyway. And
every major muslim musician liked to trace his ancestry to Swami
Haridas. Some trace it to Tansen, I think. Besides Rajan has already
referred to the Rig Veda spirit : May noble thoughts come towards us
from all the universe. That spirit is behind ICM.
Arnab Chakrabarty
> In comparison to the Indian Sitar, Persian sitar is a crude instrument
> unsuitable for ICM. An instrument like the sitar could only develop in India in
> an environment of great musical heritage. Music played on it is Indian with
> techniques borrowed heavily from the rudra veena.
> Sarod reached its high level of refinement
> under the guidance of Maharajas of Gwalior ,something that would not have
> happened in Iran.
> We have also adopted the violin, and we did not even have to refine it - it was
> already a highly refined instrument. Yet we don't have westerners telling us of
> their great influence on our music because of this.
Talwar Sahib: As much as I enjoy reading the comments you choose to make
with so much authority, it is hard to laugh them off. The Persian sehtar
is similar to the Indian sitar, but the links between the two instruments
(if any) are yet to be established analytically. There are many texts,
but none of them are entirely convincing. Your decision to call an
instrument that you do not know anything about (as I don't either)
"crude", is silly. If being "unsuitable for ICM" makes an instrument
"ctude", then we are assuming a hint of claim to some cultural supremacy
of some sort from your side.
As for sarod, the Maharajas of Gwalior had nothing to do with the actual
development of the instrument and its musical repertoire. They were
patrons, and that is the extent to which they influenced the course that
the art of sarod playing took. They were patrons of Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan,
to be precise. Nanhe Khan, Hafiz Ali's father, occupied a menial position
among the musical community in the court and was not considered one of
India's leading sarodiyas of his time. It is his brother Murad Ali Khan
who in fact recognized Hafiz Ali's natural talent and genius, and gave
him extensive taleem. Murad Ali Khan had left Gwalior and settled in
Shahjahanpur and later in Darbhanga, and that is where the Gwalior
Gharana of sarod actually flourished. The one recording of Abdullah Khan
(ca. 1846-1926) that is available, bears ample testimony to that.
Abdullah was the adopted son of Murad Ali. As for Ghulam Ali Khan
Bangash, he had settled in Gwalior as an old man, and had been in the
courts of Lucknow, Bulandshahar, Raibareilley, and Jhansi before that. He
disappeared in 1858 (Raychaudhuri, 1972).
What Hafiz Ali Khan's son Shri National Musician plays today is about 5%
Hafiz Ali, 90% Vilayat Khan and 5% genius (Yes, I do think there is some
genuis involved). Please do not take the stats literally. Hafiz Ali's
eldest son, Mubarak Ali Khan had some of his dad's fire in his playing,
but the young Mubarak was introduced to alchohol and women early enough
in his life by his uncle Nabbu Khan (Hafiz Ali's younger brother) for him
to accord more priority to those than to the sarod. Nabbu used Mubarak's
deviation to coerce Hafiz Ali into allowing his own son, Ahmmad Ali Khan
to perform in public with the maestro. Rehmat Ali Khan, the second son,
is an insignificant sarod player and that gave Hafiz Ali all the more
reason to concentrate on Amjad, the child prodigy who came much later.
Until the late 60s/early 70s, Amjad Ali's playing was a balanced and
intelligent synthesis of the parent baaj and the contemporary sitar style
of Ustad Vilayat Khan.
Another line of sarod playing that is often left out of the picture, is
that of Niyamatullah Khan. Their contribution to sarod technique and
manufacture, and also the tan-toda ang of playing, is immense. Their
rAgadarI (after Keramatullah's death) is despicable, and the last
remaining sarod players of that gharana, Irfan and Ghulfam are copycats
with little knowledge of their own family style. Umar Khan (1919-1982)
was the last significant performer from this line. The early twentieth-
century contributions of this gharana must be noted. Sakhawat Hussain,
the father of Umar Khan, was the son-in-law of Asadullah "Kukuv" Khan,
the brother of the aforementioned Karamatullah. From the Lucknow branch
of the gharAna, (that of Keramatullah/Asadullah), Keramatullah's son
Ishtiyaq Ahmed was an amazingly gifted sarod player who died in Calcutta
in the prime of his career, in 1964.
Meanwhile, Baba Allauddin, the father of our Grand Duke of Marin (Ustad
Ali Akbar Khan) was carrying out experiments that were to radically
influence the course that sarod music would take in the 20th Century.
After Radhika Babu's decision to quit the concert arena, it was left to
Buddhadev Dasgupta and Amjad Ali Khan to represent the traditional
gharanas, for all other representation had either died out or been
engulfed into the Maihar fold.
Warm regards,
Arnab
kanek...@my-deja.com
Arnab Chakrabarty <acwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As for sarod, the Maharajas of Gwalior had nothing to do with the
> actual development of the instrument and its musical repertoire.
> They were patrons, and that is the extent to which they influenced the
> course that the art of sarod playing took.
> Warm regards,
>
> Arnab
A relevant, intriguing but unstantiated (perhaps it is elsewhere)
piece of info from 'Indian Music' by B.C. Deva (pp135):
A popular Hindustani lute is the sarod. Prototype of this
vadya are very ancient in this country, though the present
version might incorporate local as well as west asian
characteristics
- cheers,
Shri
naniwadekar
> instrument that you do not know anything about (as I don't either)
> "crude", is silly. If being "unsuitable for ICM" makes an instrument
Arnab : I know nothing about Persian sitar either. But what makes you
think that shri Talwar knows nothing about it? And he has not said it
is crude "because it is unsuitable for ICM". So you are reading what
you want to read. Talwar says it is crude AND not good for ICM.
You can ask him to justify his claim. But you are jumping to illogical
conclusions.
> What Hafiz Ali Khan's son Shri National Musician
If you think you can refer to AmAK as National Musician without
providing any clue, and expect all of us to follow you, you have lost
me there. I daresay I am not the only one who is so ignorant that
Arnab's knowledge of politics leaves us groping in the dark. IMIgnoO,
there is at least one musician with a better claim to the
title "India's National Musician". I suspect AmAK and your guruji don't
get along, and so AmAK is being targetted by you. I agree he has 5%
genius, give or take 5%. What about the trash? Do Vilayat Sahib's 80 %
incorporate that trash bit or chunk within them? As for remaining 15 %
by Hafiz sahib, thanks for the info.
As for your reference to "traditional" gharanas, is Maihar not a
traditional gharana by now ?
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
kanek...@my-deja.com
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Damn those monkeys!!!! I bet RAW sent them to spy!!!!!!!!
> Women in Burkhas is better than forcing them to jump in a fire after
> their deceased husband. Hindus have no right to talk about the ethical
> treatment of women considering their history. The frothing jehadis are
> the only hope the Kashmiris have against the raping, pillaging, pagan
> Hindu army in Kashmir. Musharraf vs Vajpayee??? We should set up a
> boxing fight. Musharraf would kick his fat Bhramin ass.
Au contraire Mullah! Sati was a practice restricted in time and
to certain communities... whereas burkhas/talibani practices are
a permanent feature. History obviously is not taught in madrassas.
As to Musharraf - sure we will kick his ugly ass any time. we
recently did it in Kargil or have you forgotten ? And how many times
in the past have gotten your ass kicked ? Have you forgotten
Bangladesh ? In fact any general's ass will do. We will kick all the
biryani-eating jehadi asses.
> I love Persian and Arabian music!!!!. After all I am able to recognise
> the influence it has had on our own classical music. Mullahs can say
> whatever the hell they want about music, they know about as much as
> Rajan does.
I can assure you Rajan knows much more than you or the mullahs.
> Boo hoo. Hindus Muslims and Sikhs have all acted dispicibly in the
> past concerning places of worship. Most recently-Babri Masjid.
Of course you have excelled in it. You dont even let shias,sufis and
let us not even mention ahmadiyas live in peace.
> I guess you're the mullah since you seem to know more about Islam.
> Long live the jehadis. There struggle is benevolent.
>
So it would seem from your ignorance. Here is something for the
blender-brain of yours:
They (music and poetry) are forbidden, however, if the reciter or
singer is one who arouses to temptation, or the song is obscene or
blasphemous or gives rise to lust; CERTAIN INSTRUMENTS - PIPES AND
STRINGED INSTRUMENTS - are forbidden because they are assocaiated
with those who are drunkards or effeminate.
- from A History of the Arab Peoples - Albert Hourani
(emphasis mine).
Now these are the people who have "invented" the sitar ?!! (more on
that later).
cheers,
Shri (glad to worship Guru Rajan)
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Mr. Parrikar,
> I write to ask that you refrain from honoring such base comments that others
>send out in their various posts. Many individuals here have nothing of real
>foundation to offer to the other readers, but you have offered a wealth of
>information to us. These comments that you answer with are beneath your
>stature. Jason Mainland, Ashok and others seem to live here only to create
>strife and expound upon their lazy views of others.
Dear Shri CS aka Framedrums-ji,
Uncouth Paki savages often mistake the Hindu's civility for
meekness. When it happens in real life, it leads the brutes
into a war they cannot win, like the one in Kargil last year,
the result of which is that the rogue Paki state is now
teetering on the brink of economic collapse. The only language
the primitive Paki understands is his own so you have to
sometimes speak the gutter mullah language to slap them
around. But your points are well taken.
I am happy that you have found my postings useful. Watch
out for more. BY the way, you have unfairly singled out
Ashok and Jason.
Warm regards,
r
Arnab Chakrabarty
> Arnab : I know nothing about Persian sitar either. But what makes you
> think that shri Talwar knows nothing about it? And he has not said it
> is crude "because it is unsuitable for ICM". So you are reading what
> you want to read. Talwar says it is crude AND not good for ICM.
> You can ask him to justify his claim. But you are jumping to illogical
> conclusions.
True. I guess I ran a little off the point, Dhananjay. Thanks for letting
me know. As for Shri Talwar, my apologies to him too, for having been a
little harsher than was required. Anyhow, his authoritative comments make
amusing reading, as always. "Crude and unsuitable for ICM", however,
still points to my previously drawn conclusion, and I am eager to know
what crudeness is. Some instrument (say, the Kabuli Rabab) will be very
suitable and capable of producing refined music for a certain genre, and
prove to be unsuitable for yet another!! Would you call Ashanti drums
crude? Every instrument has a context and a reason to exist (except maybe
the santoor in ICM - although I am an admirer of Shivkumar Sharma for
having done a lot to improve that instrument and its adaptability to
ICM).
> > What Hafiz Ali Khan's son Shri National Musician
> If you think you can refer to AmAK as National Musician without
> providing any clue, and expect all of us to follow you, you have lost
> me there. I daresay I am not the only one who is so ignorant that
> Arnab's knowledge of politics leaves us groping in the dark. IMIgnoO,
> there is at least one musician with a better claim to the
> title "India's National Musician".
I agree that there are at least 10 musicians who can stake a more valid
claim to that title, if there is such a title! And, that, my friend, is
the irony of it all.
> I suspect AmAK and your guruji don't
> get along, and so AmAK is being targetted by you. I agree he has 5%
> genius, give or take 5%. What about the trash? Do Vilayat Sahib's 80 %
> incorporate that trash bit or chunk within them? As for remaining 15 %
> by Hafiz sahib, thanks for the info.
It is not really about Guruji and Amjad Ali Khan Saheb, but more to do
with my personal issues with the latter. I target him for a variety of
reasons that affect my life in an immediate manner, irrespective of my
Guru's relations with him.
> As for your reference to "traditional" gharanas, is Maihar not a
> traditional gharana by now ?
Not really. Their current baaj does not conform to any sarod tradition at
all. Baba's (speaking of Allauddin Khan) playing, however, reflected
elements of dhrupad gayaki, jod-alap of dhrupad-ang, and also exquisite
gatkari and compositions based on the rabab-ang. Ali Akbar Khansahib's
early playing was also fabled for all these (add his formidable tayyari
to that), and also for his absorption of the thumri-ang in its totality.
A majority of present-day Maihar players are just copycats. They monkey
around with Ali Akbar Khansaheb's ideas without any success. The three
Maihar sarod players that have some traditional material are Aashish
Khan, Partho Sarathy and Tejendra Narayan Majumdar. Aashish Khan has
derived his style (he is very good on a good day) from Baba Allauddin,
and the other two, from their wide listening and their respective gurus
(Bahadur Khan and Dhyanesh Khan). These three and Basant Kabra, who has
studied with his father D L Kabra and Annapoorna Devi, are among the
finest Maihar sarod players now.
Regards,
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t64q5$pui$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>> Let's talk music. From your listening experience, what are the
>> specific
>> elements of Persian/Arabic music that you consider to have influenced
>> Hindustani/Pakistani classical music ?
>
>Well mostly Persian music. First and foremost is instrumentation.
>
>The sitar is a blend betweem the Persin sehtar and the Indian Veena.
>The tied frets, order of strings, shape, and plectrum are results of
>Persian influence.The sarode is essentially a greatly-refined rabab, an
>insrtument of Afghani and Persian origin.I'm sure Arnaab bhaai or
>someone else more qualified can eleaborate on this.
>The names of both these intruments are also Persian, or farsi in
>origin, sarode means "melody" in farsi, sehtar means three strings. I
>broken down in Farsi. The name tanpura, was also adopted from the name
>of a Persian and Arabian instrument, the Tambour.
This is a cop out. All you mention is the importing of instruments, not
music. We Indians have always imported instruments suitable to ICM in our
system. Violin, Harmonium (even though it is not a greatest instrument), and
recently Hawiian guitars. That is not importing any music.
>The Islamic darbars, and the court life in general under the glorious
>Mughal Dynasty were also resposible for a change towards the chamber
>presentaion of this music as an art form rather than a religious ritual
>sung in temples.
Classical music started by the Rishis Munis of ancient India has as its core
the desire to pray and meditate with music. Our music intrinsically linked
to our faith and relegion. That is why it has this meditative influence on
people. That is the gift our ancient Rishis and Munis to us and the whole
srishti. Bhairav, it was Naushad who said it on Indian Television, came to
us from Lord Siva himself. Music, especially ICM has been the way a
congregation of Hindus and Sikhs even now worships collectively. I see the
effect in our Gurudwara when the shabads (relegious poetry) are sung in
Indian Classical bandish. So ICM being performed at temples was not the
problem with ICM, that WAS the reason for its existence. The use of ICM for
recreation by Mughals is only a corruption of it, or the very least a casual
use of something much much more potent. That is why neither their music nor
their dynasty stayed. ICM continues to flourish in India due our relgion and
it continues to die in Pakistan due to it being cut off from its core root.
-SS
Surinder P. Singh
AKTALWAR wrote in message <20001025123658...@ng-cp1.aol.com>...
>In comparison to the Indian Sitar, Persian sitar is a crude instrument
>unsuitable for ICM. An instrument like the sitar could only develop in
India in
>an environment of great musical heritage. Music played on it is Indian with
>techniques borrowed heavily from the rudra veena.
>Sarod reached its high level of refinement
>under the guidance of Maharajas of Gwalior ,something that would not have
>happened in Iran.
>We have also adopted the violin, and we did not even have to refine it - it
was
>already a highly refined instrument. Yet we don't have westerners telling
us of
>their great influence on our music because of this.
Exactly. The reason is that they do not need to derive glory by "we made
great contributions to ICM"; they had their own great Western classical
music tradition.
>>The Islamic darbars, and the court life in general under the glorious
>>Mughal Dynasty were also resposible for a change towards the chamber
>>presentaion of this music as an art form rather than a religious ritual
>>sung in temples.
>
>Are you suggesting that carnatic music did not reach an art form?
>
>After the destruction of the temples by muslim invaders, music had already
been
>taken to courts by the Hindu kings, before the Mughals. Maharaja Mansingh
Tomar
>and his wife Mrignayani had created an institute where many musicians
including
>Tansen were nurtured. Since Sanskrit had gone into decline because of
>destruction of universities, temples, burning of libraries etc. by the
muslim
>invaders, and because court language in the biggest courts was now Persian,
>this institute developed many compositions in easily understood languages
like
>brajbhasha. Dhrupad reached a high level of refinement at this institute.
The
>great work that was being done by this institute came to an end when Akbar
had
>all the sixteen musicians brought to his court. To him it was a matter of
>prestige and glamour to have these musicians and music became happy hour
>entertainment for his court. The decline of Indian music started
thereafter.
Could you tell us a little bit more about this. Do you think there is a
causal relationship between Akbar forcing those people to come his court and
the decline of ICM?
-SS
Surinder P. Singh
naniwadekar wrote in message <8t78nb$o3t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>His ancestors were very likely hindu. Interest in ICM
>has caused him to ignore Quran's objections to music.
Jokes aside, why would a Muslim listen and partake in Music, that to Indian
Classical Music, when it is explicitly forbidden in the Quoran. That is a
valid question.
-S
Surinder P. Singh
Rajan P. Parrikar wrote in message <8t7dp...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>frame...@aol.com (Framedrums) writes:
>
>I am happy that you have found my postings useful. Watch
>out for more. BY the way, you have unfairly singled out
>Ashok and Jason.
I too have found your postings (and stuff on SAWF) extremely useful.
(Although, for the life of me, I cannot play those ram files on my
computer.) Your writing style is unlike any I have ever seen: hilarious,
incisive, and catchy, yet penetratingly informative. I too look forward to
more postings from you.
-Surinder
>Warm regards,
>
>
>r
>
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t6aq4$u7u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8t5gos$ahm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>Arnab Bhaai,
>[...]
>don't mean to offend anybody aside from him, his half-witted shishyas
>and his ass-kissers, and I offered my disclaimer once it got out of
>hand...you and my other friends who know me on RMIC are well aware of
>my sincere feelings about hindus/muslims and Pakistan/India. I've got
>absolutely nothing aginst hindus or Indian people(the govt. is another
>matter).
Ferhan Sahib,
Making mockery of others relegion is somthing you should not do. If you
must, we should criticize our own, not others. Using snide comments at
"Monkeys" "elephants" "lentil-eating gurus" and "pagans/idolatory" are
deeply offensive. If you respect others faith, there is chance they will
respect yours. Plus, you must be sensitive to the fact that this anti-Hindu
attitude in the Indian Sub-continent has resulted in a long river of blood
and tears. So simple comments have many many other implications than a, say,
Budhist, criticising the idolatory of Hindus.
>Once again, I'm just antagonising-back.....you should know that....
>Kafir, infidel,hindu, muslim, shinto or inuit ; as long as you're a
>benevolant person, you're all set and will be taken care of in whatever
>manner you believe in. All religions are good in their true spirit,
>however unfortunately it is rare that they are practised as such,
>especially in the sub-continent. I'm thankful that I'm a muslim, and
>happy for everyone who is secure in their faith.
That is not what you implied in your previous so many posts.
-S
Surinder P. Singh
AKTALWAR wrote in message <20001025092306...@ng-cp1.aol.com>...
>>From: ferhan...@my-deja.com
>
>>Yeah I know about the bullshitting and exagerrating....but Tansen and
>>Khusrow were innovaters nontheless........Who is the national musican?
>
>Pt. Tansen was a Brahmin. Of the 27 leading Hindu musicians of North India
>brought to Akbars' court - (most of them unwillingly, especially Tansen) 26
>were converted to Islam. Tansen had enough respect and status to resist the
>pressure to convert. His children were, however converted. (Some think that
he
>was converted - although this view is discredited because of the hatred he
>generated among some fanatic muslim courtiers - in any case he was already
a
>great musician before any conversion).
Sorry to hear that this great musician was subject to such unfair pressures
due to his relegious beleif. A sensitive soul like him must have suffered
due to this. So his great Musical stature is not due to Islamicists, but
inspite of them.
>I think much confusion is caused
>because Akbar and his courtiers called him Mian. They were Persian speakers
and
>chose Mian instead of Pandit. I think we should correct this anomaly and
call
>him Pt. Tansen in due respect to his soul.
Words and names have power and consequences, I think we should call him Pt.
Tansen. And it is not Pakistani classical music, it is Indian classical
music.
>The fact that so many leading Hindu musicians in Akbar's time and later
were
>converted to Islam is the reason why many of our great musicians are
muslims.
>This has caused the myth of Islamic contributions to our music.
This was not just restricted to Music. There was Bhai Nand Lal, who is a
very important personality in Sikhism. He was an poet philosopher and an
intellectual. Once a debate arose in the Muslim rulers court (in
Afghanistan) about a certain passage of the Muslim Quran/Hadith. Bhai Nand
Lal gave an exposition on that topic. The ruler was so impressed that he
said that such a learned man should be a Muslim. That very night Bhai Nand
Lal, along with one servant, ran away from there and came to the Punjab
where Guru Gobind Singh was. He wrote great poetry in Persian and is often
Sung in the Gurudwaras.
-S
Surinder P. Singh
Warren Senders wrote in message
<20001025113658...@ng-fy1.aol.com>...
>Rather than quibbling about influence, try looking instead for
>structural and conceptual parallels in the various traditions.
>These are many and undeniable.
I think most non-Muslim Indians have not healed from the wounds from lat
1000 years of Muslim atrocities. A claim of ownership (some times implied by
using the term "Pakistani Classical Music" instead of ICM) has many many
layers of meaning. A joke by a German on Israel is never taken kindly.
Surinder P. Singh
ferhan...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8t62t6$om4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> >Therfore we should not be forced to call our music Indian.
>> >Indian music is indian and Pakistani music is pakistani.
>>
>> Except that this "Pakistani Classical Music" is IDENTICAL to Indian
>> classical music. It would make sense to call it by a different name if
>> Pakistani Music evolved into something different than Indian
>> Classical. This
>> could have been a possibility, but with rising Talebanization of
>> Pakistan,
>> Islam/Quran's ban on Music, it is highly unlikely. This is
>> unfortunate, but
>> that is how it seems.
>
>You are correct, essentially they are the same, but if it is from
>Pakistan, it naturally should be reffered to as Pakistani.
Then you should put your money where your mouth is. This news group is named
*Indian* classical music and deals with exactly that, not Pakistani
Classical music. What are you doing on this newsgroup?
Surinder P. Singh
become the flashpoint. It is the desire to find differences and create a
separate identity, when it actually is not all that separate. We in India
should not and cannot give in to vague changes in terminology to satisfy un
reasonable political correctness. We should insist on calling it ICM, we
should insist on calling Urdu as same as Hindi with arabic script, we should
insist on calling it the Indian Sub continent.
-SS
bdixit wrote in message <39F71F65...@pitt.edu>...
Rajan P. Parrikar
>
>All the arguing of Hinduism vs. Islam is fruitless. Buddhism is the only way
>to liberation.
>
>just a bit of humour from a Buddhist to lighten things up a bit.
Hindus readily accept the palpable presence of Gautama Buddha
in their midst. Some years ago on a visit to Rajgir in Bihar,
an area where the great Muni walked and talked, I was witness to
a continuous deluge of Hindu villagers (very poor and illiterate)
from the remotest corners of Bihar and UP. They had made the long
journey to walk up the steep hill where the Buddha is said to have
given a sermon. None of them could have had any formal education,
much less an appreciation of 'higher' Buddhism. But they all
felt as if they were in the Buddha's presence, some 2500 years
after the man.
Not too far from Rajgir is Nalanda, site of one of the ancient
world's great centres of learning, the Nalanda University - or
what remains of it. It was torched c. 12th C by the Islamic
brute Bakhtiar Khilji and his ravaging hordes (factoid: 'horde'
and 'urdu' share the same root, etymologically speaking). When
you see the ruins of the campus you are left speechless at what
must have been an unspeakable display of savagery.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>(Although, for the life of me, I cannot play those ram files on my
>computer.)
If you have a PC and are located in North America there is no
reason why you can't access the clips with RealPlayer which is
downloadable free. I understand we get frequent hits for the
clips from even places such as Fiji, Slovenia, Mauritius, South
Africa etc.
Warm regards,
r
AKTALWAR
>Date: 10/25/00 10:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20001025134021...@ng-ce1.aol.com>
>
>>Names don't matter. After seven centuries of muslim rule many Persian and
>>Arabic words have become part of our language. This has little to do with
>>music.
>
>This post was superfluous. Please refrain from disecting everything some
>writes. There's no need to clarify that which I may already know. The post
>was a follow up to the comments made about the origins of other instruments
>whose origins were equally influence by Arab, Persian, and Indian cultures.
>The remaining comment was simply to say that I often mention "tabla" in
>reference to the Indian tabla to people who think I'm referring to the Arab
>tabla.
>
who may not know.
>I would also disagree that it has little to do with music, as the music is
>directly affected by the petty arguements over such names and cultural
>ownerships of the instruments and stylings.
I meant to say that the name tabla had nothing to do with music played on it.
I got the impression that you were simply adding to the petty arguments.
kanek...@my-deja.com
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:
> Rather than quibbling about influence, try looking instead for
> structural and conceptual parallels in the various traditions.
> These are many and undeniable.
>
> For example, many performances in various Arabic classical idioms
> begin with an unaccompanied melodic prelude which has a formal
> function analogous to that of alap in Hindustani tradition.
>
> For example, both Arabic and Hindustani classical forms integrate the
> verbal and kinesthetic responses of trained listeners into
> the performance context.
>
> For example, both Arabic and Hindustani classical forms emphasize
> melodic lines and rhythmic structures over harmonic conceptions
> (as in the West).
>
> There are many more such parallels, and they are
> not mere coincidence, but a function of the fact that, seen in a larger
> geographical and historical context, both Indian and Middle-Eastern
> classical forms partake of some of the same aesthetic values.
> The causalities inherent in this equation are reflections of
> various historical forces that have to do with trade routes,
> political and military activities, and the influences of the dominant
> religious forces of the time.
>
> With this as a given, can this unseemly squabbling come to an end?
> Nobody who has heard Oum Kalthoum, Farid el-Atrache or the wonderful
> Syrian singer Sabri Moudallal (among hundreds of superb musicians)
> could remain unmoved.
>
> WS
>
Fine. perhaps the parallels indicate that it was India that
"influenced" Arabia and not vice-versa. After all we have been a
civilization a lot longer than they have. Are they civilized even
now ?
Unseemly or not I will not stand idly by when preposterous and
ludicrous claims are made denigrating my culture. We have tolerated
the mullahs for too long.
cheers,
Shri
AKTALWAR
>Talwar Sahib: As much as I enjoy reading the comments you choose to make
>with so much authority, it is hard to laugh them off. The Persian sehtar
>is similar to the Indian sitar, but the links between the two instruments
>(if any) are yet to be established analytically. There are many texts,
>but none of them are entirely convincing. Your decision to call an
>instrument that you do not know anything about (as I don't either)
>"crude", is silly. If being "unsuitable for ICM" makes an instrument
>"ctude", then we are assuming a hint of claim to some cultural supremacy
>of some sort from your side.
>
have taken every opportunity to attend concerts, of which, unfortunatley, there
have not been many. I have seen a detailed video of a Sehtar being made. I have
also heard it played.
I admit that I did not choose my words wisely. I should have said that it does
not have the capabilities of Sitar for the purposes of ICM.
Sometimes a sophisticated instrument is suitable for one type of music but not
for another. Piano is an example.
Framedrums
civilized even now ?>
This is not accurate to the history of the Middle East. The early
civilizations of India, Mohenjo Daro and Harappa were around 2,500 B.C. But
the civilizations of the Babylonians date back before 3500 BC. Sumerians were
at their height between 3500 and 3001.
As far as being civilized....that could be left to much better experts than I,
but considering the amount of people that live in India, I would say it's
tremendously civilized. However, to the litmus of other "civilizations" in the
Middle East, there are many areas of India that I'm sure have much more to
learn about civility.
CS
Framedrums
>not
>for another.
Sometimes an unsophisticated instrument is suitable....a moorsing, manjira, or
perhaps even a frame drum.
CS
Framedrums
to liberation.
just a bit of humour from a Buddhist to lighten things up a bit.
CS
Ashok
we
>should insist on calling Urdu as same as Hindi with arabic script,
Then, Hindi also is "same as" Urdu with Devanagari script.
"same as" is a symmetric relation.
>we should
>insist on calling it the Indian Sub continent.
>
>-SS
What is "it" in the above sentence? And what is "it" called now?
Ashok
kanek...@my-deja.com
frame...@aol.com (Framedrums) wrote:
> >After all we have been a civilization a lot longer than they have. Are they
> civilized even now ?>
>
> This is not accurate to the history of the Middle East. The early
> civilizations of India, Mohenjo Daro and Harappa were around 2,500 B.C. But
> the civilizations of the Babylonians date back before 3500 BC. Sumerians were
> at their height between 3500 and 3001.
Quite inaccurate. Recent research tends to favor much older dates
for the Indus valley civilization. In any case I was referring to
the islamic civilization which surely didnt exit before 600 ad.
>
> As far as being civilized....that could be left to much better experts than I,
> but considering the amount of people that live in India, I would say it's
> tremendously civilized. However, to the litmus of other "civilizations" in the
> Middle East, there are many areas of India that I'm sure have much more to
> learn about civility.
>
> CS
>
As are many areas of this country.
Jason Mainland
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
> Hindus readily accept the palpable presence of Gautama Buddha
> in their midst. Some years ago on a visit to Rajgir in Bihar,
> an area where the great Muni walked and talked, I was witness to
> a continuous deluge of Hindu villagers (very poor and illiterate)
> from the remotest corners of Bihar and UP. They had made the long
> journey to walk up the steep hill where the Buddha is said to have
> given a sermon. None of them could have had any formal education,
> much less an appreciation of 'higher' Buddhism. But they all
> felt as if they were in the Buddha's presence, some 2500 years
> after the man.
>
> Not too far from Rajgir is Nalanda, site of one of the ancient
> world's great centres of learning, the Nalanda University - or
> what remains of it. It was torched c. 12th C by the Islamic
> brute Bakhtiar Khilji and his ravaging hordes (factoid: 'horde'
> and 'urdu' share the same root, etymologically speaking). When
> you see the ruins of the campus you are left speechless at what
> must have been an unspeakable display of savagery.
Hey Rajan, while you're on this tack, can you go into the etymology of the word
"Hindu"? Do you think this may be a misnomer for the "religion"?
Regards,
Jason Mainland