Query: the first raga?
Ranganatha Prasad Sridharan
Darshak Vasavada <dar...@miel.mot.com> wrote :
> Which raga is considered as the first created raga in Indian classical
> music? (both Karnatic and Hindustani)
It may be difficult to track because ragas were rendered even ages
before a system of classification or nomenclature came into existence.
It is given to my understanding that hymns sung in the vedic ages were
in some raga or the other.
regards,
Ranga
Darshak Vasavada
Shankar Iyer
In <31EED834...@cisco.com> Ranganatha Prasad Sridharan
<rsri...@cisco.com> writes:
>
>Darshak Vasavada <dar...@miel.mot.com> wrote :
>
>> Which raga is considered as the first created raga in Indian classical
>> music? (both Karnatic and Hindustani)
>
>before a system of classification or nomenclature came into existence.
>It is given to my understanding that hymns sung in the vedic ages were
>in some raga or the other.
>
SAIRAM. To add to Ranga's comment - there has been quite a postings re the
chanting of Riks and Yajur vedic hymns, and the singing of Samam. There are
also references to music and musical instruments (for example Rudra's
and Sarasvati's vinas, Nandi's mrudanga, Shiva's tandava and Shakti's
lasya, Narada's music and tambura, to name some) in the Shrutis,
smrutis and puranas, which predate the musical trinities, melakarta
classfications etc by centuries, if not millinia.
To my understanding, chronologically, Hindustani music is a much later
evolution.
A more interesting question in my mind, for which I have no clear
answer: is a raga discovered or invented? Inventions may be called
creations (hence 'first created'), but if ragas are discoveries, 'first
use' of a raga may be more appropriate. Will the doyens of the group
help? Thanks. SAIRAM. SAI.
WARVIJ
I am given to understand, however, that in
some texts about Hindustani music, the raag
Bhairav is denoted as "Adi Raag." So at least
*some* people say that's the first on the block.
But that's just a report of *some* peoples'
assertions.
Warren Senders
Original music blending Indian and Western traditions;
Hindustani vocal music -- Khyal & Thumri --
"Beauty in music is too often confused with something
that lets the ears lie back in an easy chair."
-- Charles Ives --
For info (617) 643-0206
Warren Senders
PO Box 38-1634, Harvard Square
Cambridge, MA 02238-1634
V. S. Sridharan
I have heard Prof. Sundaram suggest that raga Ghambira Nattai was the first raga to have been deployed from his studies on srutis and consonance.
If Vedas were assumed to have been chanted as they are today, raga Revati might be one of the older ones.
Sridhar
Sushil Bhattacharjee
In article f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com, war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) writes:
> I am given to understand, however, that in
> some texts about Hindustani music, the raag
> Bhairav is denoted as "Adi Raag." So at least
> *some* people say that's the first on the block.
>
> But that's just a report of *some* peoples'
> assertions.
>
> Warren Senders
>
used to mark the end of a concert:->>> Well, kidding
apart, could someone please explain how this came about?
(ie,why is a Bhairav used to end a concert?)
Regards,
Sushil
---
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
V. S. Sridharan wrote:
>
> I have heard Prof. Sundaram suggest that raga Ghambira Nattai was the > first raga to have been deployed from his studies on srutis and
> consonance.
>
Certainly, the scale of Gambhiranata is one of the simplest five-swara
ones, in terms of consonance relationships, but I doubt if that is
sufficient reason to say that this was the first raga. Many systems of
music in the world use the Mohanam scale, but few use the Gambhiranata
scale. So I would be hesitant to call it the "first raga" in the absence
of any positive historical evidence. As a counter-example, Hamsadhvani
also has very nice consonance relationships, but we know that it was
only after the time of Ramasvami Dikshitar (father of Muttusvami
Dikshitar) that it was used to any significant extent.
> If Vedas were assumed to have been chanted as they are today, raga
> Revati might be one of the older ones.
>
> Sridhar
Read the earlier thread on Vedic recitation and Revati in this regard. A
Dejanews search should pull up all the relevant posts.
S. Vidyasankar
WARVIJ
>>A more interesting question in my mind,
>for which I have no clear
>answer: is a raga discovered or invented?
A general truism:
For *any* "either-or" question about Indian
classical music...
...the answer is *always* "yes."
Not much of a help, I suppose. Invention in this
music is IMO essentially a process of discovery.
The traditionalists decry the "invention" of
ragas, while the innovators (Kumar Gandharva
for example) feel, correctly in my opinion,
that the stream of tradition still flows, and it
is incumbent on us to, as it were, "keep on keepin' on."
My own guruji made the point tellingly, saying
"the ragas are *our* servants, and we should
not let them just sit around doing the same things
they have always done. Keep looking for new ways."
rajib doogar
Sushil Bhattacharjee (sushil.bha...@epfl.ch) wrote:
: That's funny, considering that usually Bhairav is
: used to mark the end of a concert:->>> Well, kidding
: apart, could someone please explain how this came about?
: (ie,why is a Bhairav used to end a concert?)
I know that it is to be performed in the first prahar of the day just
before sunrise or around sunrise too -- not sure of this last. Could
it be that it is used to mark the end of an all night concert? I know
that in Dover Lane for example, the all night ones are considered to
be the "big" ones. Is there some possible connection here? I am
curious to also learn the source from have you heard/read of it being
used as a general concert-end raga? Or is it your experience? I have
heard a all night concert at the Sadarang Conference in Calcutta in
circa 1982 end on Lalit for example. I just looked up Kaufmann and he
is silent on this aspect of Bhairav. Looking forward to learning.
Thanks.
rajib
Sushil Bhattacharjee
In article p...@news.nd.edu, rdo...@wood.helios.nd.edu (rajib doogar) writes:
> Sushil Bhattacharjee (sushil.bha...@epfl.ch) wrote:
>
> : That's funny, considering that usually Bhairav is
> : used to mark the end of a concert:->>> Well, kidding
> : apart, could someone please explain how this came about?
> : (ie,why is a Bhairav used to end a concert?)
>
> I know that it is to be performed in the first prahar of the day just
> before sunrise or around sunrise too -- not sure of this last. Could
> it be that it is used to mark the end of an all night concert? I know
Yes, this was my guess too.
> that in Dover Lane for example, the all night ones are considered to
> be the "big" ones. Is there some possible connection here? I am
> curious to also learn the source from have you heard/read of it being
> used as a general concert-end raga? Or is it your experience? I have
I have heard this from a couple of friends who are more knowledgeable than
me about music. I don't know anything substantial about it:->>
Anyways, several years ago I went to a concert by Lakshmi Shankar. (The
concert was held from 7-9 in the evening, EST:->) As she was settling in,
in front of the mic, one of the ladies in the audience requested that she
`do one piece in Bhairavi'. Ms. Shankar laughed and said "wo to ant me
gAnA hi padegA; abhi gA doon?" (`That I'll have to sing at the end anyway;
do you want me to sing it right away?')
Because of this incident, this thing about Bhairavi stuck to my mind.
My impression may be wrong though. Not all concerts I have been to have
ended with a Bhairavi ((PJ alert:) in fact, this is not even true of all
the Indian classical music concerts I have been to:->>>) but Ms. Shankar
was not the only one to do this, in my experience.
Cheers,
Sushil
---
Geeta Bharathan
I don't know much about this, but what about Mohanam? It must be a most
ancient raga--I hear it in most forms of classical Asian music. To me it
seems to have some kind of primeval appeal. And I remember reading
somewhere about how one of the most ancient musical instruments found in
an archeological site, a flute, could essentially play the basic notes of
what I interpreted to be Mohanam. Any insights?
--Geeta
WARVIJ
Inquiry:
> : (why is a Bhairav used to end a concert?)
Response:
NB:
There is a BIG difference between *BHAIRAV*
and *BHAIRAVI* (much bigger than the one vowel!).
Bhairavi is the raag customarily used to end
concerts; it is nowadays customarily sung in
Thumri ang. Popular compositions include
"Bajuband Khul Khul Jaaye," "Babul Mora Naihar
Chhuto Hi Jaa" and "More Naina Bhar Bhar Aaye."
Bhairav is the one sometimes denoted as "adi raag;" and
in some texts considered to have emerged, full blown,
from the head of Lord Shiva (Shiva me timbers?).
Compositions include "Jago Mohan Pyare Tum"
and the lovely (and unfortunately all-too-rarely
heard) "Jago Brij Rajkunwar" made popular in the
30's through the 78 recording by Narayanrao Vyas.
(though he sings it rather too briskly for my taste;
I like to do it in medium ektal and he sings it in
the same taal but about thrice as fast.)
Mugar main digress karta hoon....
Shankar Iyer
In <4srqnk$l...@mark.ucdavis.edu> fzye...@rocky.ucdavis.edu (Geeta Bharathan)
writes:
---------------------------------
SAIRAM. In this series of interesting speculations, shold one not
consider Kambodhi/Kambhoji? Sampurna Ramayanam cinema (1960's vintage),
in which Ravana (the Lord of Lanka, a reputed vina player, who charmed
Shiva with his music and obtained the Rudra vina as a gift) is asked by
Queen Mandodari - 'prana natha, Kailai nathanai thangal ganathal
kavarndadu enda ragathal?' (Life's Lord, by singing which raga did you
win over the Lord of Kailasha?) His answer: Kambodhi (Chidambaram
Jayaraman does a much more eloquent job than I have done here, in
giving this answer!)
(By way of fair disclosure, it should be noted that the same ragamalika
song features several other ragas - including Bhupalam, Vasanta, and
Gambhira Nattai. Later, there is also a fine song in Thilang!)
SAIRAM. SAI.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4srqnk$l...@mark.ucdavis.edu> fzye...@rocky.ucdavis.edu (Geeta Bharathan) writes:
>I don't know much about this, but what about Mohanam? It must be a most
>ancient raga--I hear it in most forms of classical Asian music. To me it
>seems to have some kind of primeval appeal. And I remember reading
>somewhere about how one of the most ancient musical instruments found in
>an archeological site, a flute, could essentially play the basic notes of
>what I interpreted to be Mohanam. Any insights?
>
>
equivalent (or ONE of its equivalents), seems to be a pretty old raga.
Iread the cover of Kishori Amonkar's Bhoop/Bageshri LP, and I think that
it said there that SHE subscribes to the belief in Bhoop as having
sprung from the "Aadi-Naad" or something like that - anyone else heard
anything like that?
Sanjeev
Anand Kuppuswamy
In article <4srqnk$l...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, fzye...@rocky.ucdavis.edu
says...
>
>I don't know much about this, but what about Mohanam? It must be a most
>ancient raga--I hear it in most forms of classical Asian music. To me it
>seems to have some kind of primeval appeal. And I remember reading
>somewhere about how one of the most ancient musical instruments found in
>an archeological site, a flute, could essentially play the basic notes of
>what I interpreted to be Mohanam. Any insights?
>
>
Hello,
Carnatic Music's roots is believed to have originated with the
vedic chants Sama Veda and the first raga is Sama raga which is very
close to 'kharaharapriya'. The musical-sound of 'om' is believed to have
given rise to many of the modern-day notes.
The first 'Melakarta raaga', however, is Kanakaambari or Kanakaangi.
Hindustani music ... which I think came much later had its roots in the
ten thaats ...
Bilaval, Khamaj, Bhairav, Bhairavi, Kafi, Yaman, Asavari, Poorvi, Todi,
Marwa.
more later,
Anand Kuppuswamy
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
Geeta Bharathan wrote:
>
> I don't know much about this, but what about Mohanam? It must be a most
> ancient raga--I hear it in most forms of classical Asian music. To me it
> seems to have some kind of primeval appeal. And I remember reading
> somewhere about how one of the most ancient musical instruments found in
> an archeological site, a flute, could essentially play the basic notes of
> what I interpreted to be Mohanam. Any insights?
>
> --Geeta
Historically, Mohanam/Bhoop/callitwhatyouwill might well be a serious
contender for the title of "first raga." I remember reading in S.
Ramanathan's thesis on the Silappadikaram that it is one of the most
ancient paNs.
Mohanam is the first pentatonic scale derived from a process of taking a
cycle of fifths (kural tiripu in old Tamil references): sa-pa-ri-dha-ga,
ideally a geometric series starting from 1, with a ratio 3/2, and
suitably divided by 2 at appropriate places to give a number between 1
and 2. This rearranges to give sa-ri-ga-pa-dha, after which we can
forget about the ideal ratio values of these notes. Note also that sa is
pure convention for the note from which this cycle of fifths starts.
There is no need to assume that historically it had the same position of
being a fixed reference as it is in today's Indian music(s).
S. Vidyasankar
Anand Kuppuswamy
Sanjeev Ramabhadran (sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu) wrote:
: In article <4t03qr$h...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> akup...@vt.edu (Anand Kuppuswamy) writes:
: >In article <4srqnk$l...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, fzye...@rocky.ucdavis.edu
: >says...
: >>
: >
: >Carnatic Music's roots is believed to have originated with the
: >vedic chants Sama Veda and the first raga is Sama raga which is very
: >close to 'kharaharapriya'. The musical-sound of 'om' is believed to have
: >given rise to many of the modern-day notes.
: Is this the same Sama raga that is currently in vogue? I don't think
: it's that similar to Kharaharapriya...Doesn't it use antara ga while Kh.
: uses sadharana ga? Also, I thought ni is not in Sama at all, while
: kaishiki ni is there in Kh.
I think the raaga you are talking about is Saama raga which is a janya
from the parent melakarta (#28) Harikhambhoji. It does have anthara ga
in its avroh but lacks the nishad in both the aaroh & avroh! I don't know if
it is in vogue or not :-)
The first raaga ... according to our vedas was sama-raaga and it was sung
in 3 notes ...
Udatta (raised) Ni-Ga
Anudatta (lowered) Re-Dha
Swarita (level) Sa-Ma-Pa
Combination of these notes formed the Sargam.
: Afar as I know, the thaats are a relatively new creation, brought in by
: V.N. Bhatkhande - the melakarta system is more exhaustive as to which
: combinations of notes you can have...the ragas themselves were not
: really derived from the thats, but were rather classified under them...
: the thaats are not ragas the way melakarta (ragas) are.
: >
I do appreciate the fact that thaats could have been derived only when we had
a few raags to play-around-with.
: Sanjeev
regards,
Anand
WARVIJ
Anand writes:
>>Hindustani music ... which I think came much later
>had its roots in the ten thaats ...
>(names of thaats snipped)
Naah. The thaats are a relatively recent accretion;
popularized by Bhatkhande, they are believed by
some to be derived from fret settings on the
sitar. Many musicians do not subscribe to the
thaat taxonomy. Much earlier system of categories
is the now unused raga-ragini system, but even
this was a theoretical (so to speak) construct rather
than an attribution of origin.
In general *all* taxonomies come after the fact;
generating new raags by recourse to an already
existant taxonomy is occasionally practiced but
usually yields fairly juice-less results.
Anand Kuppuswamy
Subject: Re: Query: the first raga?
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.classical
References: <4t03qr$h...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <4t06mb$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]
Hi!
WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
: Anand writes:
: >(names of thaats snipped)
How recent is recent ... 400-500 years?? That is when the thaats were used
initially to classify the ragas. It is another story that these thaats may
have been popularized recently (~100 years back) by Pt. V.N. Bhatkande.
This still does not answer the question as to what was the oldest raag! I
believe Hindol, Megh, Deepak, Shree, Malkauns were some of the oldest
raags created by Lord Shiva & Parvati!
Anand
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4t03qr$h...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> akup...@vt.edu (Anand Kuppuswamy) writes:
>In article <4srqnk$l...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, fzye...@rocky.ucdavis.edu
>says...
>>
>
>Carnatic Music's roots is believed to have originated with the
>vedic chants Sama Veda and the first raga is Sama raga which is very
>close to 'kharaharapriya'. The musical-sound of 'om' is believed to have
>given rise to many of the modern-day notes.
>
Is this the same Sama raga that is currently in vogue? I don't think
it's that similar to Kharaharapriya...Doesn't it use antara ga while Kh.
uses sadharana ga? Also, I thought ni is not in Sama at all, while
kaishiki ni is there in Kh.
>The first 'Melakarta raaga', however, is Kanakaambari or Kanakaangi.
>
>
>Hindustani music ... which I think came much later had its roots in the
>ten thaats ...
>
>Bilaval, Khamaj, Bhairav, Bhairavi, Kafi, Yaman, Asavari, Poorvi, Todi,
>Marwa.
>
>
Afar as I know, the thaats are a relatively new creation, brought in by
V.N. Bhatkhande - the melakarta system is more exhaustive as to which
combinations of notes you can have...the ragas themselves were not
really derived from the thats, but were rather classified under them...
the thaats are not ragas the way melakarta (ragas) are.
>
Sanjeev
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Srikanth Gopalan
: > : That's funny, considering that usually Bhairav is
: > : used to mark the end of a concert:->>> Well, kidding
: > : apart, could someone please explain how this came about?
: > : (ie,why is a Bhairav used to end a concert?)
Careful here. Bhairavi is used to end a concert usually not
Bhairav. Two vastly different animals..
-S
rajib doogar
Srikanth Gopalan (sgop...@cal.eng.utah.edu) wrote:
: Careful here. Bhairavi is used to end a concert usually not
: Bhairav. Two vastly different animals..
Yes, but why? I seem to recall an earlier post, perhaps by Warren
Senders who also wrote mentioned that Bhairavi is traditionally used
to end concerts. IMWTN (inquiring minds etc..) why? Is it because
Bhairavi is a very flexible raga(ini?)? Because it is a light raga?
Because virtually any combination of notes (komal or shuddha that is
to say) can be sung in it without hampering the structure of the raga?
(or played). in short, what is the theory here?
are there other "traditional" concert ending ragas? e.g. hansadhwani,
bhupali etc., come to mind for no particular reason. vidwans anyone?
rajib
WARVIJ
Rajib Doogar writes (re Bhairavi's status as a
concluding raag in Hindustani concerts):
>>I seem to recall an earlier post, perhaps by Warren
>Senders who also wrote mentioned that Bhairavi is
>traditionally used to end concerts. IMWTN (inquiring
>minds etc..) why? Is it because
>Bhairavi is a very flexible raga(ini?)? Because it is a
>light raga? Because virtually any combination of notes
>(komal or shuddha that is to say) can be sung in it
>without hampering the structure of the raga?
>(or played). in short, what is the theory here?
As it was explained to me, Bhairavi is the last raag
sung (seems like we're *very far* from the original
thread title at this point, no?) because its personality
is so strong that rendering any other raag afterwards
is impossible. There are dhrupad versions of
Bhairavi without alternative versions of the swaras,
and these were also performed as concluding items,
so it's hard to be definitive about this.
In any case, the ultimate answer is: because it's
always been done that way. ("Always" is of course
a relative term -- remember Diana Eck's interview
with the pujari of a temple in Varanasi who asserted
that "ever since the beginning of time itself, people
have come to my temple first, after getting down
from the train at the station!")
We sing Bhairavi to conclude because:
how else will the audience know to leave?
Speculatively yours,
Warren