Popular ragas with komal Ni and tivra M (do they exist ?)
Sambarta
and tivra M (and no other variations of M and Ni) I assume you don't
know of any. My advice (very humble ) is, do not make statements which
you cannot back up later. That way you can at least try not to make
yourself look silly in public.
s
Bruce Hamm
P. Parrikar) writes:
>
>There are quite a few popular Ragas that employ just the tivra madhyam
>and komal nishad that I had cited:
>
>Madhukauns, Shanmukhapriya, Hemavati. Also Vachaspati. I haven't
>mentioned some of the 'newer` Ragas developed by people such as
>Nikhil Banerjee, Kumar Gandharva etc.
There is also a popular version of Saraswati that uses M n. I once
heard Salamat ALi Khan sing "Muth"(?) Kalyan. Can anyone confirm this?
I have heard experimentations with Hindol with a komal ni (Hindoli ?)
and likewise Shobavati with a tivra ma.
This interval, tivra ma komal ni, seems to provoke stong emotions. Some
people find it "unmusical", others delight in its perversity and in the
opportunity, in a rag like Vachaspati, to explore bidar ang
permutations.
Since this whole thread started with discussion of Ali Akbar Khan's
performance of Adarangi Todi, we could think of Khansahib's creation
"Gouri Manjari". In this rag the M n, Vachaspati-like interval is
contrasted with the P d N P and G m M G intervals of Gouri, creating
the effect of two tonal centers.
Bruce Hamm
AACM Store
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
>Madhukauns, Shanmukhapriya, Hemavati. Also Vachaspati. I haven't
>mentioned some of the 'newer` Ragas developed by people such as
>Ragas that fall in this category too but I don't want to spoil the
>fun for the genuinely interested who might want to find out things
>for himself/herself.
>
>
>r
>
Madhuvanti also uses Komal Ni in spots (depending on which artist is
performing it) in addition to the Tivra Ma. I personally like it better
with just the Shuddha Ni.
There is a Carnatic Raga that has the scale S R2 G3 M2 D2 N2 S, I think
it is called Gatibhedapriya... BMK has composed a ragamalika Tillana
whose Pallavi is in this raga.
Pandit Hariprasad Chaurasia's Indira Kalyan also exhibits this trait.
And a VERY popular one in the south (and to an extent up North is
Saraswati).
Also, there's a raga Champakali, which apparently is Maru Bihag with a
Komal Ni in it...What about Bhavakri Todi (got that from a book, haven't
heard anyone do it...)?
Hope I didn't spoil anyone's fun :-) just adding my two cents' worth...
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Kedar, which is a VERY popular raga...
Most common phrase would be (| |
M P D n D P M P D----P--M
Sanjeev
.
Shashidhar N S
Sambarta wrote:
> But there is something a little jarring I find in all these ragas. Is it
> a coincidence that they cannot be classified into any thaat ?
> Humbly,
> s
>
In my opinion, it is indeed true that ragas with komal-ni in
combination with tivra-ma are not often rendered in concerts
or recordings of Hindustani music. I don't believe any
identifiable reason lies behind the non-prevalence of such
ragas.
I am aware of a beautiful Hemavati of H Chourasia. I attended
a memorable concert of Salaamat Ali Khan (in B'lore!) in which
he sang Saraswati, which he called "Sursati".
Many other highly synthetic (as opposed to natural ?!) ragas
with that combination have left me cold. But then so have
other synthetic ragas which do not use that combination.
The Carnatic compositions "Paratpara" and "Saraswati namastute" and
"Saraswati dayanidhe" should even on a single listening
convince you that there is nothing degenerate about the
combination komal-ni-tivra-ma.
Shashidhara
Mohan Srinivasan
>parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) wrote:
>>There are quite a few popular Ragas that employ just the tivra madhyam
>>and komal nishad that I had cited:
>>
>>mentioned some of the 'newer` Ragas developed by people such as
>>
> just that your sleek superciliousness tempted me to throw some barbs.
> What was the raga developed by Nikhil Banerjee you refer to ? Was it
> a mixture of Marwa and Kalavati and did the name sound like Monomoyuree ? I
> heard it once but can't say I was too impressed. And as to the other ragas
> you mention, do you personally like them ? I haven't heard any recording/
> concert of Bade Ghulam Ali, Amir Khan ,Bhimsen Joshi or Jasraj singing any
> of these ragas ? Have you ? I heard Vachaspati though on the radio from
> Jagdish Prasad.
(This is orthogonal to the original discussion and a minor nit).
Amir Khansaheb has a recording of Madhukauns. You can find this in the
4 cassette collection "Memorable Evenings with Ustad Amir Khansaheb".
Released ~ 5 years ago by EMI/HMV. (This is a collection from various
concerts - presumably recorded by individuals and put together by EMI).
For fans of Ustad Amir Khansaheb, this is a treasure chest and includes
the ragas Mian Ki Malhar, Ramdasi Malhar, Bageshree, Bairagi, Madhukauns,
Shuddha Kalyan, Jog, Darbari and more.
mohan
Rajan P. Parrikar
Bruce and Sanjeev, respectively, follows.
I) Sambarta <srak...@ecs.umass.edu> writes:
> parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) wrote:
> >This is addressed to everyone else except Sambarta (since he is more
> >interested in his adolescent one-upmanship than in any serious
> >interchange of ideas).
> No, no you wrong me. I am interested in serious discussions.
Okay.
> It was
> just that your sleek superciliousness
Oh, it is a natural gift. But mind you, I'm not entirely sold on the
'sleek` part.
> tempted me to throw some barbs.
> What was the raga developed by Nikhil Banerjee you refer to ? Was it
> a mixture of Marwa and Kalavati and did the name sound like Monomoyuree ? I
> heard it once but can't say I was too impressed.
The name is Manomanjari. I think it to be a marvellous piece of innovation
and stands testimony to the brilliance of Banerjee's musical mind.
> And as to the other ragas
> you mention, do you personally like them ?
Yes, I do. Madhukauns is an exquisite Raga. And Shanmukhapriya is just
grand.
> I haven't heard any recording/
> concert of Bade Ghulam Ali, Amir Khan ,Bhimsen Joshi or Jasraj singing any
> of these ragas ? Have you ?
No; however, my sources of listening and learning include, but are not
limited to, the above named fellows. Ah, I remember now: Amir Khan's own
creation, Rampriya Kalyan, is yet another data point to the list! (The
name stems from the Carnatic melakarta Rampriya)
> I heard Vachaspati though on the radio from
> Jagdish Prasad.
> And if you remember I cited two other examples - Saraswati Kalyan which
> Amjad Ali plays a lot and Kusumi Kalyan which I have heard Parween Sultana
> sing. But there is something a little jarring I find in all these ragas.
> Is it a coincidence that they cannot be classified into any thaat ?
You have a point in that the Hindustani tradition is low on such Ragas,
which is probably why no thaat is designated for them. But the thaat system
is, in any case, quite inadequate and it is best to get to know the Carnatic
melakarta formalism.
As to the 'jarring` stuff - part of the problem (without bringing in
considerations of tonal intervals etc) is, I think, the paucity of popular,
light compositions in these Ragas. They often help you latch on
and internalise the catch phrases besides seeding the mind with the
associated aesthetic elements. But there are now people who are venturing
out and composing new material - Lakshmi Shankar, for example, sings a
superb self-composed bhajan in Shanmukhapriya.
*****
II) aa...@ix.netcom.com (Bruce Hamm) writes:
> In <47mrs3$f...@lace.Colorado.EDU> parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU (Rajan
> P. Parrikar) writes:
> >
>
> >There are quite a few popular Ragas that employ just the tivra madhyam
> >and komal nishad that I had cited:
> >
> >Madhukauns, Shanmukhapriya, Hemavati. Also Vachaspati. I haven't
> >mentioned some of the 'newer` Ragas developed by people such as
> >Nikhil Banerjee, Kumar Gandharva etc.
>
> I have heard experimentations with Hindol with a komal ni (Hindoli ?)
No, Hindoli is just another name for Bhinna Shadaja/Kaushikdhwani.
Although some people distinguish between these Ragas by the accent
on notes (vadi/samvadi). (There is another beautiful Raga - Hindolita -
which is quite like Hindol but it uses both the madhyams. Jitendra
Abhisheki sings a nice bandish in this one.)
> and likewise Shobavati with a tivra ma.
> This interval, tivra ma komal ni, seems to provoke stong emotions. Some
> people find it "unmusical", others delight in its perversity and in the
> opportunity, in a rag like Vachaspati, to explore bidar ang
> permutations.
But it really depends on how the 'link` is established between M and n.
Not all the 'bridges` yield the same musical or emotional effects. To
be more specific - notice that there seems nothing unnatural in the M P n
progression in Raga Madhukauns. It gets a little uneasy in, say,
Hemavati where you use the D to connect. Or in Ramkali where you have
M P d n d P as a catch-phrase. But the most discomfort, it seems to me,
is generated by the M d n/n d M path found in Adaarangi Todi and Lachari
Todi. It is, however, possible to rid yourself of the unease and cultivate
familiarity with this progression but it takes a little effort.
> Since this whole thread started with discussion of Ali Akbar Khan's
> performance of Adarangi Todi, we could think of Khansahib's creation
> "Gouri Manjari". In this rag the M n, Vachaspati-like interval is
> contrasted with the P d N P and G m M G intervals of Gouri, creating
> the effect of two tonal centers.
I'm not too enthused by this Raga as much as the other Khansahib babies
such as Hindol-Hem, Chandranandan and Medhavi.
By the way, it is interesting to note that Raga Ram Todi uses the
same notes as Adaarangi Todi. The chalans are markedly different though -
Ram Todi is gotten by grafting the M P d n d P act of Ramkali onto Todi's
structure (with N axed). These are difficult Ragas to sing - there
is an overpowering temptation to intone the shuddha nishad that can
gobble you if you aren't careful.
*****
III) sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
> Also, there's a raga Champakali, which apparently is Maru Bihag with a
> Komal Ni in it...
There's no shuddha madhyam in it though. I think Subbarao mentions this
Raga in his volumes. Haven't heard any composition in it to capture
its character.
> What about Bhavakri Todi (got that from a book, haven't
> heard anyone do it...)?
Do you have details of the Raga?
*****
r
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>[ Note: this post uses rOman-nAgarE ]
>
>
>
>
>name implies the change in speed, i.e. gathe, during the
>composition. Another part of the name implies a change in the
>rAga from one *-preyA to another in step with the speed changes,
>i.e. gathe-BAEdha.
Ah! I see. The tape cover says Gatibhedapriya, so I wasn't sure...but
now, come to think of it, I remember the Gurupriya being included in the
text of the Pallavi. And the metres go (correct me if I'm wrong)-
Chaturasra, Misra, Tisra, Sankirna, and Khanda for the last..
I don't know if actually the SPEED of talam changes, but the
subdivisions seem to be different...
Now can you help me on the aarohana-avarohana of the ragas themselves?
>
>The rAgas are:
>
> guru preyA
Figured this one out...
> gAyaka preyA
This sounds like Mayamalavagoula with D1 N1. Am I right?
> raseka preyA
I know this one too.
> sunAdha preyA
This one I'm confused on. The notes sound very similar to Kalyani. But
he moves through it so fast, I can't really tell.
> Karahara preyA
Yep. This one is pretty standard...
>
>
>
>
>
>As to this already irrelevant thread about "m2 ... n2" rAgas,
Why is this thread irrelevant?! Just because Carnatic music might use
such ragas more prolifically is no reason to call this thread
irrelevant...some of us Hindustani music listeners might find it a tad
interesting.
>
> jalArNavam navanEtham BavapreyA ShaDvedhmArgenE
> nAmanArAyaNE rAmapreyA ShaNmuKapreyA hAEmavathE
> reShaBapreyA vAcaspathE jyOthesvarUpeNE nAsekABUShaNE
>
That too, I don't think that ALL those melakartas are THAT popular in
Carnatic music (Though Vachaspati, Shanmukhapriya, and Hemavati I
definitely HAVE heard several times, particularly Shanmukhapriya.)
>
>I don't see any problem with popularity with any of these mAELas
>(or with their janyas), unless one happens to be a short-sighted,
>bAEgadA-bigot.
>
It has NOTHING to do with short-sightedness. If it SOUNDS good to you,
you like it. If NOT, you don't. Btw, why do people cite Begada when they
want an example of a completely straightforward raga? Even Begada isn't
totally straightforward, with vakra ascent, etc.
Would you mind posting the ascent-descent of the above twelve MELAS.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
.
Krishna Kunchithapadam
[ This posting uses rOman-nAgarE ]
sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
:
: [ large-scale deletions ]
:
: Now can you help me on the aarohana-avarohana
: of the ragas themselves?
:
For the sake of completeness (and at the cost of mentioning the
obvious).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
rAga mAELa ArOhaNa avarOhaNa
--------------------------------------------------------------------
guru-preyA 64 s r2 g3 m2 d2 n2 S S n2 d2 m2 g3 r2 s
gAyaka-preyA 13(*) s r1 g3 m1 p d1 n1 S S n1 d1 p m1 g3 r1 s
raseka-preyA 72(*) s r3 g3 m2 p d3 n3 S S n3 d3 p m2 g3 r3 s
sunAdha-preyA 57 s r2 g2 m2 p S S n3 d1 p m2 g2 r2 s
Karahara-preyA 22(*) s r2 g2 m1 p d2 n2 S S n2 d2 p m1 g2 r2 s
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[ (*) indicates a mAELa rAga ]
:
: [ deletions ]
:
: It has NOTHING to do with short-sightedness. If it SOUNDS good to you,
: you like it. If NOT, you don't.
:
This is what I meant by my statements about short-sightedness.
What else do you think short-sightedness is, other than holding
the opinion that one's own idea of good and bad is universally
applicable?
:
: Btw, why do people cite Begada when they
: want an example of a completely straightforward raga? Even Begada isn't
: totally straightforward, with vakra ascent, etc.
:
Obviously you are new to this newsgroup. Just hang around for
sometime and you will see what the real meaning of begada-bigotry
is. I won't spoil the suspense by saying anything more.
:
: Would you mind posting the ascent-descent of the above twelve MELAS.
:
------------------------------------------------
mAELa sangKya svara
------------------------------------------------
jalArNavam 38 s r1 g1 m2 p d1 n2 S
navanEtham 40 s r1 g1 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
BavapreyA 44 s r1 g2 m2 p d1 n2 S
ShaDvedhmArgenE 46 s r1 g2 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
nAmanArAyaNE 50 s r1 g3 m2 p d1 n2 S
rAmapreyA 52 s r1 g3 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
ShaNmuKapreyA 56 s r2 g2 m2 p d1 n2 S
hAEmavathE 58 s r2 g2 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
reShaBapreyA 62 s r2 g3 m2 p d1 n2 S
vAcaspathE 64 s r2 g3 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
jyOthesvarUpeNE 68 s r3 g3 m2 p d1 n2 S
nAsekABUShaNE 70 s r3 g3 m2 p d2 n2 S
------------------------------------------------
The sub-divisions are by mAELa-cakra.
--Krishna
Wim van Gessel
>parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) wrote:
>>
>>There are quite a few popular Ragas that employ just the tivra madhyam
>>and komal nishad that I had cited:
>>
>>Madhukauns, Shanmukhapriya, Hemavati. Also Vachaspati. I haven't
>>mentioned some of the 'newer` Ragas developed by people such as
> What was the raga developed by Nikhil Banerjee you refer to ? Was it
> a mixture of Marwa and Kalavati and did the name sound like Monomoyuree ? I
I suppose you must be referring to Manu Manjari (or Mano Manjari), which was
indeed developed by Nikhil Banerjee. He played it during a concert in
Amsterdam back in 1973. I had the opportunity to record it, and it has been
one of my favourites ever since. If you want to make a comparison, I would
say it is rather close to Puriya Kalyan; it has all the notes of that rag,
with an additional komal Ni , mostly used in the phrase Dha ni Dha Pa...
which gives it a very unique flavour to my taste.
--
:::::::: Wim van Gessel
e-mail : wvge...@xs4all.nl
tel : +31-(0)20-6932731
address: Djambistraat 9'' / 1072 AW Amsterdam / Netherlands
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
THanks for clarifying these for me. I have been wondering about these
for a while.
>
>For the sake of completeness (and at the cost of mentioning the
>obvious).
>
Now why was this last bit necessary? You didn't HAVE to answer my
question.
>
>This is what I meant by my statements about short-sightedness.
>What else do you think short-sightedness is, other than holding
>the opinion that one's own idea of good and bad is universally
>applicable?
>
Perhaps. But I was ONLY talking about myself (or any ONE given person).
I NEVER said that just because **I** don't like ragas with M2 and N2
that they are bad Ragas, or that nobody else should appreciate them.
Surely people have different tastes. That can't be so bad...
(That too, I **DO** like some of the ragas with M2 and N2)
>
>:
>:
>
>Obviously you are new to this newsgroup. Just hang around for
>sometime and you will see what the real meaning of begada-bigotry
>is. I won't spoil the suspense by saying anything more.
>
I don't listen to as much Carnatic music as I do Hindustani. Thus I
probably haven't heard Begada nearly as many times as you or other
nettors have...
Sanjeev Ramabhadran