Confused about the common talas
Ganesan Hariharan
among the Suladi saptha talas. Nor are khanda chapu and misra chapu
taught in the first few lessons of Carnatic music (geetam, etc.)as
specific talas.
Rupaka talam is defined as having 6 beats (one dhrutam of four
beats(chaturasra jati) and one laghu of 2 beats). Yet, invariably all
bhagavathars reduce rupakam to 2 sets of three beats each.
I believe Khanda chapu refers to khanda jati ekam, and consists
actually of one dhrutham of 5 beats. Similarly, misra chapu perhaps is
misra jati eka talam, consisting of 7 beats in all. If that is true, I
fail to understand how they can be reduced to 1 1/4 x 4 = 5, and 1 3/4
x 4 = 7 total beats, but that is how they are kept by everyone.
Do the compositions set to these talas contain words in their lyrics
that conform to the 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 matra patterns, or do the
bhagavathars make them conform to the pattern?
Can anyone help me with the correct reference as to the definition of
these talas?
SP
I am not much of a karnatic music follower, I mean i don't knwo the
intricacies because i have been brought up learning the hindustani
style. anyway, here's one link that might help
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/talams.htm
shishya
> ghari...@yahoo.com (Ganesan Hariharan) wrote in message news:<a059c8e2.02050...@posting.google.com>...
> > The popular talas Adi, khanda chapu, misra chapu are not mentioned
> > among the Suladi saptha talas. Nor are khanda chapu and misra chapu
> > taught in the first few lessons of Carnatic music (geetam, etc.)as
> > specific talas.
talas.I don't remember the exact references but if I remeember
correctly that is how it is.
Suladhi saptha tala system was founded by purandara dasa who also
composed the alankaramas and most of the geethams.I think this
exclusion of khanda chapu and misrachapu was intentional since he
wanted to cite examples for the talas that he discovered and hence
composed the practice pieces in those talas.
> >
> > Rupaka talam is defined as having 6 beats (one dhrutam of four
> > beats(chaturasra jati) and one laghu of 2 beats). Yet, invariably all
> > bhagavathars reduce rupakam to 2 sets of three beats each.
Rupaka talam has one drutam of 2 beats followed by a laghu of 4 beats
(chaturasra jaathi). I beleive you have it the other way round. It is
the only talam that starts with a drutam.
> > I believe Khanda chapu refers to khanda jati ekam, and consists
> > actually of one dhrutham of 5 beats. Similarly, misra chapu perhaps is
> > misra jati eka talam, consisting of 7 beats in all. If that is true, I
> > fail to understand how they can be reduced to 1 1/4 x 4 = 5, and 1 3/4
> > x 4 = 7 total beats, but that is how they are kept by everyone.
Khanda chapu just has 5 aksharas for an avartanam while khanda jathi
eka talam has 5x4 =20 aksharas per avartanam.
I don't know if you are familiar but there is also something called
gathi which means the number of aksharas you count per beat and it
follows the jathi pattern.
for example a khanda jathi eka talam has 5x4 =20 aksharas per
avartanam in the chaturasra gathi it would have 5x5 =25 aksharas per
avartanam in the khanda gathi.Sometimes, khanda chapu is thought to be
synonymous with khanda gathi just 5 aksharas making one avartanam.The
same is true with misrachapu. Syama sastry has used the Misrachapu
talam extensively.He also used the viloma chapu where the count
proceeds as 4+3 instead of the traditional 3+4 count of teh
misrachapu.
> > Do the compositions set to these talas contain words in their lyrics
> > that conform to the 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 matra patterns, or do the
> > bhagavathars make them conform to the pattern?
> >
> > Can anyone help me with the correct reference as to the definition of
> > these talas?
If you can catch hold of a book that describes these, please let me
know, I also want to refresh my references.
Ganesan Hariharan
to count 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 beats as a tala pattern (I am referring to
Khanda chapu and misra chapu).
And how about the common practice of counting 3+3 for rupaka talam
instead of 2+4?
any thoughts?
Nick Haynes
> zee...@mail.ru (SP) wrote in message news:<7dd3d51b.02050...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>ghari...@yahoo.com (Ganesan Hariharan) wrote in message news:<a059c8e2.02050...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>>>The popular talas Adi, khanda chapu, misra chapu are not mentioned
>>>among the Suladi saptha talas. Nor are khanda chapu and misra chapu
>>>taught in the first few lessons of Carnatic music (geetam, etc.)as
>>>specific talas.
>>>
> I beleive the chapu tala is outside the framework of the suladi saptha
> talas.I don't remember the exact references but if I remeember
> correctly that is how it is.
> Suladhi saptha tala system was founded by purandara dasa who also
> composed the alankaramas and most of the geethams.I think this
> exclusion of khanda chapu and misrachapu was intentional since he
> wanted to cite examples for the talas that he discovered and hence
> composed the practice pieces in those talas.
>
>
Adi Tala is just a common name for Chatusra Jati Triputa talam (and a
good thing it has got a short common name considering how often it has
to be said!). Definately one of the Thirty-Five (Suladhi saptha) thalas.
>>>Rupaka talam is defined as having 6 beats (one dhrutam of four
>>>beats(chaturasra jati) and one laghu of 2 beats). Yet, invariably all
>>>bhagavathars reduce rupakam to 2 sets of three beats each.
>>>
>
> Rupaka talam has one drutam of 2 beats followed by a laghu of 4 beats
> (chaturasra jaathi). I beleive you have it the other way round. It is
> the only talam that starts with a drutam.
>
>
>>>I believe Khanda chapu refers to khanda jati ekam, and consists
>>>actually of one dhrutham of 5 beats. Similarly, misra chapu perhaps is
>>>misra jati eka talam, consisting of 7 beats in all. If that is true, I
>>>fail to understand how they can be reduced to 1 1/4 x 4 = 5, and 1 3/4
>>>x 4 = 7 total beats, but that is how they are kept by everyone.
>>>
The chapu thalas are compound talas and the pattern eg 1 2 1 2 3 will
often be noticable in the music. Khanda jati eka would have only one
part and follow the pattern 1 2 3 4 5. Same for misra. and sankeerna.
If you look at the table of thirty-five talas you will see the same
number of counts for several different talas (eg there are 3 8-beat
talas) but they are not the same. Actually Khanda chapu would be Tisra
Jati Roopakum! and Misra would be Tisra Jati Triputa (just about).
> Khanda chapu just has 5 aksharas for an avartanam while khanda jathi
> eka talam has 5x4 =20 aksharas per avartanam.
> I don't know if you are familiar but there is also something called
> gathi which means the number of aksharas you count per beat and it
> follows the jathi pattern.
> for example a khanda jathi eka talam has 5x4 =20 aksharas per
> avartanam in the chaturasra gathi it would have 5x5 =25 aksharas per
> avartanam in the khanda gathi.Sometimes, khanda chapu is thought to be
> synonymous with khanda gathi just 5 aksharas making one avartanam.The
> same is true with misrachapu. Syama sastry has used the Misrachapu
> talam extensively.He also used the viloma chapu where the count
> proceeds as 4+3 instead of the traditional 3+4 count of teh
> misrachapu.
>
Different schools use terminology differently, so I dare not say "you
are wrong" ;-) but I would say each Akshara (equal to Western Beat)
contains a number of pulses (sorry, mental block here: is the word
mudra? according the gathi (or nadai), but the pulses are not akshara.
You will often hear what sounds like a very fast rupakam, that is
actually tisra nadai adi (8 aksharas of three pulses each). Songs that
change nadai are a great challenge! (but I digress)
>>>Do the compositions set to these talas contain words in their lyrics
>>>that conform to the 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 matra patterns, or do the
>>>bhag
avathars make them conform to the pattern?
The songs either follow the thala Pattern (see above) or appear to
beginnners like me to avoid it so entirely as to make it hard to even
detect!! (cf western equivalents cross-rhythms and syncopation) But
any song following the pattern relentlessly would probably send us to sleep!
shishya
> to count 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 beats as a tala pattern (I am referring to
> Khanda chapu and misra chapu).
conveniently ignored that part:)
This is what I know
Khanda chapu:
1 2 3 4 5
ta ka ta ki ta (this is one avartanam)
the beats fall on 1, 3 and 4
Misra chapu:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
ta ki ta ta ka di mi (one avartanam)
the beats fall on 1,2 4 and 6
hope this helps
>
> And how about the common practice of counting 3+3 for rupaka talam
> instead of 2+4?
>
> any thoughts?
I think rupaka talam existed in its current form of 3 + 3 even before
purandara dasa came up with the suladhi format for the talas. And
maybe because it is easier to put the talam this way than the suladhi
way, may be the 3+3 format stayed.
This is just what I think. It might not be the correct reason.
Ganesan Hariharan
explain how I have observed khanda chapu and misra chapu timed by
beating on the thigh, as is the common practice when the singer is
sitting on the stage.
Khanda chapu: tak taka -- one quick beat, a small gap, 2 quick beats
Misra chapu: tak tak taka --- the first 2 a little farther aprt than
the last two(taka)
I think this counts (per cycle as described here) as 1 1/4 beat
(matra) in the case of khanda chapu, and 1 3/4 beat (misra chapu) in
the case of misra chapu. Yes, I agree 4 of this pattern equals 5 beats
(khanda), and 7 beats (misra) respectively. But is condensing a talam
of 20 beats, as mentioned by someone, to a pattern of 16 1-1/4 matras
is allowed in the case of Khanda chapu? And are the lyrics of the
great composers strctured to this 1-1/4 and 1-3/4 beat pattern? (I
agree when listening to the songs being sung, it would appear to be
so). In any case you cannot have a cycle consisting of 1-1/4 and 1-3/4
beats.
The most obvious deviation is counting rupakam as two cycles of 3
beats each.
I am looking for a technical explanation from the singers themselves,
who are invariably keeping the tala as described by me.
V. N. Muthukumar
termed as "rupaka tala" is (if you insist on the 35 tala nomenclature)
tisra jati eka tala. Misra and Khanda capu talas do not fall within the
35 tala scheme. Some scholars opine that the term cApu derives from the
tamizh word, "caippu" (lit. unblanced) Instead of an even time interval,
the tala cycle has uneven time intervals. In the case of Misra capu, the
tala is 6 matras (1.5 aksharas) + 4 matras (1 akshara) + 4 matras (1
akshara). The total number of matras indicates why the tala is called
misra capu. Khanda chapu is defined by 4 matras (1 akshara) + 6 matras
(1.5 aksharas) and it is "khanda" because the total number of matras is
10. It is then natural to have two other capus - sankeerna capu (6
matras + 4 + 4 + 4) and tisra capu (6 matras). These two are not in
vogue except as in gatis, e.g., misra jati jhampa tala in sankeerna gati
or tisra gati.
Someone mentioned that the sulAdi sapta tala scheme "was discovered" by
Purandaradasa. This is incorrect. While it is true that Purandaradasa
composed alankaras in the 35 talas, he did not classify them first. It
should be noted that the term "suladi" in "suladi sapta tala" has
nothing to do with tala per se. Suladi is a kind of hymn. It has been
suggested [1] that the term derives from Saranga Deva's "suda
prabhanda". Purandara, as also Narayanateertha and others composed hymns
in these 35 talas. Note that this classification (of 35 talas), like the
melakarta classification, is just that - a classification. This is why
misra capu does not fit in, though it is one of the most popular talas
(the reason is not far to seek. It is the simplest uneven time
interval).
Finally, we cannot afford to forget the role of Arunagirinathar
(pre-Purandaradasa) and his Tiruppugazh, when discussing talas and their
origins. He has used an amazing repertoire of talas (determined
essentially by the "collukattu" or the chanda of the words) and
Tiruppugazh is rightly called "tala ilakkiya prabandham" (lit. treatise
on the grammar of tala)[2].
Your other question about the words in lyrics and Talas will be
addressed in a subsequent posting.
[1] Rhythm in historical cognition, T. V. Kuppuswami and T. K.
Venkatasubramanian, Kalinga Publ. New Delhi 1993.
[2] Carnatic music and the Tamils, T. V. Kuppuswami, Kalinga Publ. New
Delhi 1991. See also www.kaumaram.com for essays on the works of
Arunagirinathar.
muthu
Nur der BvB!
Nick Haynes
Whoa, lets get simpler. Khanda chapu is 5 beats, Misra chapu is seven
beats. Khanda is marked by three hand movements: one clap to mark two
beats (THA-ka) and two claps to mark three beats (THA-KE-tha)
Misra is 7 beats marked by four hand movements (THA-KE-tha-THA-ka-DI-me)
(marked beats in caps).
Nick H
Nick Haynes
Sorry to be commenting on my own post, but I wanted to make something
clear. I use the word BEAT in the western sense, ie 4 beats in a bar, 8
beats in a bar, 7 beats in a bar. ie I mean beat is the same as akshira.
(bar = avartanum).
Indian nomenclature often uses the word to indicate the handmovement
clap, thus adi talam has three beats, rupaka two, khanda three and so
on, the beats being of differing duration. This is utterly confusing
(in the humble opinion of a western mridangam student)
Perhaps people may think it a little arrogant of me that I expect that
"beats in a bar" is readily understandable to anyone of any race, but I
would support the view by saying India has light music too. I don't
mean to offend, and would add that my *only* musical education is in
carnatic rhythm.
Nick H
Ganesan Hariharan
So far, Muthukumar seems to me to make most sense when he says the
chapu talams are ouitside the scope of the traditional Carnatic talams
because they originated from the ancient Tamil music, such as
Tiruppugaz. Yet, I do not agree with him when he says Rupakam is same
as tisra ekam. That is not the way it is taught in music schools.
Every Carnatic talam is defined by its components (angam). Thus, Adi
talam has one chaturasra jati Dhrutam and two laghus. Rupakam is
defined as having one laghu and one chatursra dhritam. When the stage
musicians follow the grammatical pattern (when they maintain the tala
by beating on their thighs) for Adi, Ata and some other talams, why do
they reduce Rupakam to something like 2 rounds of tisra ekams instead
of the correct pattern of one laghu and one chaturasra dhritam? And
what exactly is the definition for Khanda chapu and Misra chapu in
terms of Laghu, dhritam, etc.?
Can the chapu talams be defined in terms of laghu and dhritam rather
than on the basis of sollukkau?
V. N. Muthukumar
Ganesan Hariharan wrote:
> Yet, I do not agree with him when he says Rupakam is same
> as tisra ekam. That is not the way it is taught in music schools.
Which school(s)? To repeat myself, what is commonly called as rupakam
should not be confused with the rupakam in the matyam, dhruvam, tripuda,
rupakam, ekam. If you want to be picayune, (the common) rupakam should
be displayed by just a tisra laghu (since it is tisra ekam) and not an
anudrutam, followed by a drutam. Most people display it this way (one
anudrutam and a drutam), which does not fit into any of the 5 classes
listed above. But, how does it matter?
>
> Can the chapu talams be defined in terms of laghu and dhritam rather
> than on the basis of sollukkau?
No, since the angas (laghu, drutam, and anudrutam, can only account for
whole number (laghu - 3, 4, 5, 7 or 9), drutam (2) and anudrutam (1) of
aksharas. But the capu talas are characterized by half integral
components. Note that the earlier scheme of 108 talas had three
additional angas, guru, plutam, kakapadam, but these account for whole
numbers too. (8, 12 and 16 respectively).
muthu
Nur der BvB!
Nick Haynes
There is more to Carnatic Rhythm Life than the 35 thalas !!!
Karthik Venkataraman
THought I would post my two cents into this discussion. My Initial
thoughts are about Rupakam Thalam. In the Carnatic form Rupakam has an
"Anga" form of one Dhrutham followed by a laghu. Hence the actual hand
motion would be a tap with the palm, then a tap with the palm facing
up, followed by 4 counts on the fingers (tap,little finger, ring,
middle) adding up to a total of 6. Making this technically Chatusra
Jaathi Rupakam. This method of putting thalam is done usually for slow
tempo songs. The so called "Normal" way of putting rupakam in my
opinion was for ease and song structure seemed to fit into a three
beat setup.
Coming to the chaapu thalams, it is a common mistake people assume
that misra chapu and Kanda chapu are 7 and 5 beats respectively.
Technically they should be considered at 3.5 and 2.5 beats. A proper 7
beat thalam would be tisra jathi triputa. So misra chaapu is basically
the faster version. To illustrate Misra chapu as we see is two quick
taps with the palm facing up followed by two beats with the palm down.
hence they are actually split into 1.5 for the two quick beats and 1
each for the taps hence making it 3.5. Similarly for Kanda chapu the
similar concept is applicable. hence if we say that usually at
chatusra Gati (4 divisions/beat) is used the total mathra count would
be 14 for misra chapu and 10 for Kanda chapu.
Hope that helped
Karthik
Nick Haynes <NoS...@mridangam.com> wrote in message news:<3CE10D78...@mridangam.com>...
Nick Haynes
> Hello,
>
> THought I would post my two cents into this discussion. My Initial
> thoughts are about Rupakam Thalam. In the Carnatic form Rupakam has an
> "Anga" form of one Dhrutham followed by a laghu. Hence the actual hand
> motion would be a tap with the palm, then a tap with the palm facing
> up, followed by 4 counts on the fingers (tap,little finger, ring,
> middle) adding up to a total of 6. Making this technically Chatusra
> Jaathi Rupakam. This method of putting thalam is done usually for slow
> tempo songs. The so called "Normal" way of putting rupakam in my
> opinion was for ease and song structure seemed to fit into a three
> beat setup.
>
> Coming to the chaapu thalams, it is a common mistake people assume
> that misra chapu and Kanda chapu are 7 and 5 beats respectively.
Why? how can TaKaTaKiTa be anything other than five or TaKiTaTaKaDiMi
be anything other than seven?
slg...@gmail.com
Gayathri
lvn...@gmail.com
http://lvnaga.wordpress.com/category/music/
Nagarajan
