Carnatic Music of Yesudas
Unni Narayanan
The following is an article i posted 6 months
ago on alt.culture.kerala. I didn't get any response
there - I thought I'd post here.
Basically, the post was a reply to someone's query
about Yesudas' skill in Carnatic music - the following
was my reply.
Hoping to stimulate some discussion:
Unni
ps: Please don't flame me - I am not trying to start a
war - just a discussion.
==================================================================
I am a fan of a variety of musicians including all the
greats like Chembai, GNB, KVN, MS, MLV, and Ariyakuddi.
I am also a fan of Yesudas. This has been a source of eternal
conflict with me and the establshment! My sincere belief is
that he has a voice that is superb and he has a great
deal of creativity. Most of his critics concede that his
voice is great, but they complain about his creativity,
knowledge of music, etc. The famous critic Subbudu
criticized Yesu's Thaalaam in a concert and suggested
that Yesu "has a wonderful voice, but should take two
years off to learn Karnatic music" Naturally, Yesudas
refuses to perform if Subbudu is in the audience.
So, let's examine the points on which Yesu is criticized
and let's see what we have:
Thaalam: People say yesu's sense of Thaalam is not good.
I personally talked to no less an authority than
Guruvayoor Dorai (the great Mrdangist ) about this point.
He says his Thaalam is great. I think this should be
obvious, if you hear him sing the Panthuvarali Krithi
Raghuvaranannu - he doesn't miss a beat.
Shruthi: People say he loses the Shruthi - shruthi is
not correct, etc. Dorai stated "yesudas has one of
the best senses of Shruthi". Karnatic music is a
medium in which vocalists are notorious for losing
the Shruthi - Semmengudi - the doyen of Karnatic
music makes it a point to be off Shruthi.
I personally feel Yesudas sense of Shruthi is great and
that film singing has helped it. People who hear of
film song, won't tolerate it being out of tune, people
who listen to Karnatic music tolerate a few klunker
notes in the name of Gamakhams or the Bhava of the artist.
Bhava: People say he doesn't have Bhava. I suggest to
people who believe that to go and listen yesu's
rendition of Karuna Cheivan in Yedhukulakambodhi.
If they don't change their mind after that - they
have got serious problems.
Creativity: Another intangible. I could say listen
to yesudas's Pakala Nilabadi in Karaharapriya or
Vanee Vagadeeshwari and say listen to the creativity.
People will just argue that he doesn't respect
tradition.
Tradition: The last point brings me to respect for tradition.
Yesudas is constantly learning new Krithis ( he
has an old teacher in his house). His concerts are
full fledged affairs with Varanams, the requisite
Krithiis, RTPS, thilanas, and Mangalam. I think he does
a good job.
So, why is Yesudas criticized:
1) I believe there is a definite state bias involved.
Madras controls the Karnatic music scene. An example
of this bias, is when I atteneded the recent
Chicago Thyagaraja Utsavam. In the handout
there was an article on classical music in Tamil
films. Yesudas' name was mentioned no where - even
Sounderajan's name was mentioned. I can understand
their not liking Yesudas's regular Karnatic fare -
but they shouldn't dismiss his light classical music
- or his classical songs in films.
2) Reluctance to change. People will say that he sings
krithis in Arabic and that this bad. I disagree.
Music like other aspects of culture is not a stagnant
entity - it must change and adapt to survive. It is
not that he just sings songs in Arabic. Rather, he
is expanding the scope of Karnatic music - he still
does the Thyagaraja, Dikshitar, Shyama Sastri,
Swathi Thirunal, etc songs.
Your opinions.
Unni
Santhanam
For me, I find that Jesudhas' music fails to produce _any_ positive
response. The highlight for me was a concert a few months back where
he sang manaviyalakincharaa in lightening speed and devoid of all
beauty. I get the impression that he is attempting to show off this
super speed ability. He also sang a RTP in charukesi which was
equally unpalatable. In the realm of shruthi, it doesn't matter at all
if he was in shruthi. His music was just already so displeasing. As
for Talam, I acknowledge that Jesudhas can sing rather quickly and
perhaps in the beat (if Dorai says so). Yet, I don't think I want to
hear Raghuvara in Panthuvaraali from Jesudhas if it is anything like
the concert I went to. If one wants to listen to a good Raghuvara I
strongly recommend KVN :)
There is no way conceivable that Jesudhas can be compared to the likes
of GNB, KVN, MS, etc. (as the prior article seemed to suggest). The
music of these stalwarts is, put simply, beautiful -- something Jesudhas
is unable to produce.
This is all IMHO, of course.
Gopal
Anamika Bharadwaj
: Hi Folks:
: Unni
:
Well I think that Yesudas has a great voice especially in the
varaitons. But there is a problem that I think all non Telugu
people have when they are singing tyagaraja kritis. I listen
to GNB, MD Ramanathan, M.Santanam, Chembai, Ariyakudi,Master
Nambudri and many more but noone compares close to
M.Balamuralikrishna's pronounciation,
the bhavas, the feeling you get listening to him.. I think Yesudas,
also needs to maybe try and practice his pronounciation and try not
to murder the language by breaking in the middle of the sentence or
the words, this is the case with many vocalists.
For example:
Ksheera sagara sayana
Yesudas, Bombay sisters, GNB, etc
sing as following
ksheera sagara sayana nannu
which is ok I guess but
the next line is incomplete with out the nannu at
first because it is
nannu chintalu pettavalena
where as MBK sings it
as
ksheera sagara sayana
and the next one is
nannu chintalu petta valena.
I don't know may I am getting it wrong but
it makes more sense the way MBK sings it.
Please don't flame me .. I am trying to give in my opinion
Unni Narayanan
>perhaps in the beat (if Dorai says so). Yet, I don't think I want to
>hear Raghuvara in Panthuvaraali from Jesudhas if it is anything like
>the concert I went to. If one wants to listen to a good Raghuvara I
>strongly recommend KVN :)
I've heard KVN's Raghuvara - it's great! I have
heard yesu's Manvyalakinchara - I agree it leaves a lot
to be desired. But, the point is I believe the bulk
of what Yesu sings is very good.
>There is no way conceivable that Jesudhas can be compared to the likes
>of GNB, KVN, MS, etc. (as the prior article seemed to suggest). The
>music of these stalwarts is, put simply, beautiful -- something Jesudhas
>is unable to produce.
>
No, I didn't mean to compare Yesu to GNB, etc. Rather,
I was trying to state that I was not into Yesu - just
because he has pop. appeal. The true test for
Yesu. will be how he improves in the next
20 years - only then can he be compared to the rest.
Rather, I am saying - I don't think he is bad -
I think he does bring out the beauty in many
songs (ex. Karuna Cheivan, Ksheera Saagara. etc)
By the way, it was no one less than Chembai,
who heard Yesudas sing Ksheera Sagara and then arose
from the audience and awarded yesu. a title and
took him as his student. Was it that
Chembai was being biased towards
a fellow Malayalee - or did Chembai, a recognized
Vidhwan see something?
Awaiting more discussion/
>This is all IMHO, of course.
>
>Gopal
same here.
Unni
Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan
|> criticized Yesu's Thaalaam in a concert and suggested
|> that Yesu "has a wonderful voice, but should take two
|> years off to learn Karnatic music" Naturally, Yesudas
|> refuses to perform if Subbudu is in the audience.
Yeah. Blow it off, saying I won't perform before this critique.
Does that make him any better singer?
|> 2) Reluctance to change. People will say that he sings
|> krithis in Arabic and that this bad. I disagree.
|> Music like other aspects of culture is not a stagnant
|> entity - it must change and adapt to survive. It is
|> not that he just sings songs in Arabic. Rather, he
|> is expanding the scope of Karnatic music - he still
|> does the Thyagaraja, Dikshitar, Shyama Sastri,
|> Swathi Thirunal, etc songs.
YesudAs ( not JesudAs ) is criticized for untraditional
songs. I do not believe that the criticisms about his bhAvA,
pronunciation are because of this bias. I am a fan of his
classical based film songs. My sincere opinion is that
carnatic singers with a great voice (YesudAs, Balamurali)
do a better job in film songs. I think singers with a great
voice do not work on other aspects of music as much because
they think listeners will put up with anything because of their
great voice, which is far from being true.
Subu
Ravichandran Mahalingam
: For me, I find that Jesudhas' music fails to produce _any_ positive
: response. The highlight for me was a concert a few months back where
.......
: hear Raghuvara in Panthuvaraali from Jesudhas if it is anything like
: the concert I went to. If one wants to listen to a good Raghuvara I
: strongly recommend KVN :)
: There is no way conceivable that Jesudhas can be compared to the likes
: of GNB, KVN, MS, etc. (as the prior article seemed to suggest). The
dear mr gopal,
i fully endorse your view. If somebody does RTP in charukesi, it
is not worth listening to that concert. the best thing to do is to
stage a walkout..
when i was working in MAS, i happened to go near Music academy, it was
not during music season. i stoppped by Music academy to see what was going
on. they told me that Yesudas was singing, cost of the ticket was 10Rs.
2 days later, in the same series of concerts, U Srinivas was performing.
The cost of the ticket for his concert was Rs.5.00. I was shocked to
hear that and it was visible in my face. Then the man at the counter
told me, "Sir, dont be perturbed.. The people are like thhat.. they pay
more money becos he is a famous artiste.."
So with such people around, we are bound to listen to more of sub-standard
music. this is will be the trend till people change themselves..
for the others who dont agree with what i have to say... pl read this
message...........
THERE IS BOUND TO BE CHAOS AFTER THIS POSTING. PLEASE DONT IRRITATE
ME BY SENDING MAILS THAT OPPOSE THIS VIEW. I HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THIS
MUSIC FOR THE PAST 9 YEARS, IN AND AROUND MYLAPORE, MORE NUMBER OF TIMES
AT SASTRI HALL, ACADEMY, FINE ARTS.. YOUR MAILS WILL NOT CHANGE MY VIEWS.
with regards
m.r
--
Ravichandran Mahalingam, MS (Civil). ravi...@engr.latech.edu
P.O. Box 8342, Ruston, LA 71272 phone# (318)-255-5948
**********************************************************************
* Whose undertakings are all devoid of desires and purpose, and *
* whose actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge, him *
* the "wise" call a SAGE. *
* -Srimad Bhagawad Geeta, chapter 4, verse 19. *
**********************************************************************
Santhanam
Ravichandran Mahalingam <ravi...@engr.latech.edu> wrote:
>i fully endorse your view. If somebody does RTP in charukesi, it
>is not worth listening to that concert. the best thing to do is to
>stage a walkout..
Well, I was not immediately turned off by the fact that there was an
RTP in charukesi. It was just the fact that although the ragam was
announced as Charukesi it must have been some sort of Yesudhas
interpretation of the raga. It was nothing like the Charukesi I have
heard from either Lalgudi, TVS, or MS. And I did stage a walkout
after listening to the entire circus pallavi. I probably should have
left earlier, but it was my first live Yesudhas concert, so I decided
to stay at least until the RTP was over :) I didn't wait to hear the
Arabic piece or whatever, but I am sure I didn't miss much.
About the ticket prices. I found it ridiculous that I paid $15 for
that concert while I paid $8 for a Ravi Kiran concert which was
excellent. Why is Yesudhas worth almost twice as much for not even
half as much quality?
Gopal
V. Chandramouli
|>
|> dear mr gopal,
|>
|> i fully endorse your view. If somebody does RTP in charukesi, it
|> is not worth listening to that concert. the best thing to do is to
|> stage a walkout..
||> [..stuff deleted]
|> for the others who dont agree with what i have to say... pl read this
|> message...........
|> THERE IS BOUND TO BE CHAOS AFTER THIS POSTING. PLEASE DONT IRRITATE
|> ME BY SENDING MAILS THAT OPPOSE THIS VIEW. I HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THIS
|> MUSIC FOR THE PAST 9 YEARS, IN AND AROUND MYLAPORE, MORE NUMBER OF TIMES
|> AT SASTRI HALL, ACADEMY, FINE ARTS.. YOUR MAILS WILL NOT CHANGE MY VIEWS.
|>
|>
|> with regards
|> m.r
|>
|> --
|>
I don't know how one can make such a strong statement. Why can't an RTP be done in
Charukesi ? I have an elaborate rendition in this raga by Lalgudi and I found
this raga to be one of the most melodious. I agree this is a purely subjective
thing but saying one should walk out on hearing a Charukesi RTP is nothing
short of preposterous.
I am not even bothered with changing your views and that is why I am not sending
you a personal mail. I am just curious how many people feel this way about
Charukesi ?
--Chandramouli
K.S. Venkatesh
repels me to the extent that I would walk out of the concert.
But Charukesi is not, to my mind, melodious or pleasing. Half
of it is Shankarabharanam and the other half is Thodi. So its bhavam
is neither that of the former nor that of the latter. In fact, I
cannot detect any distinct bhavam at all in Charukesi. And as RTPs are
generally long, an RTP in Charukesi would be pretty sure to send most
of the audience to sleep.
On the whole, I am inclined to applaud Ravichandran Mahalingam's
tone. Music is emphatically one of those fields where one ought to
have strong views and express them fearlessly. Coem on, Ravi! Lets
hear more from you. What do you think about Kalyani and Shankarabharanam?
I myself put them at the lowermost end of the aesthetic scale. Well,
almost. Charukesi comes even lower !
K.S.Venkatesh
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: --Chandramouli
:--------------------
Certainly not me. Not only Charukesi but any other raga. I agree that
certain ragas offer nore scope for detailed elaboration than others but
this doesnt mean they shouldnt be sung/played at all! It goes to the
artiste's credit if he /she can perform such "small" ragas without
being repetitive.
muthu (for all ragas) kumar
Santhanam
<mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>: I don't know how one can make such a strong statement. Why can't an
>: RTP be done in
>: Charukesi ? I have an elaborate rendition in this raga by Lalgudi
>: and I found
>: this raga to be one of the most melodious. I agree this is a purely
>:--------------------
>
>Certainly not me. Not only Charukesi but any other raga. I agree that
>certain ragas offer nore scope for detailed elaboration than others but
>this doesnt mean they shouldnt be sung/played at all! It goes to the
>artiste's credit if he /she can perform such "small" ragas without
>being repetitive.
>muthu (for all ragas) kumar
I whole-heartedly agree with both of you. I enjoy Charukesi
tremendously and Lalgudi was able to perform quite an extensive
alapanai in the raga that was far from boring. In fact I have two of
his alapanais in Charukesi and both are distinctly different and
enjoyable in themselves. Perhaps those who do not like the raga have
not heard it rendered well? I have heard a pretty bad Charukesi done
as well (by Yesudhas) and can understand that if that type is the only
exposure one has, they surely might not like it.
I also agree with mr. kumar, in that it shows much to the artist's
ability if he or she can utilize a "limited" raga. Besides, there is
no reason to walk out if the RTP is done well, which no doubt some can
do hands down.
Gopal
Mahesh Ram
not, in any definition I can tell, a "light" raga. Though there are but a
few well known compositions in the raga and one almost inevitably hears either
Aada Modi or Kripaya, just as inevitably the composition is preceded by an
elaborate alapana. KVN did brilliant justice to Charukesi here in Queens, N.Y.
on his last tour here last year on a Swati Tirunal day (tape I believe is
available through CMANA) and Madurai Mani (along with Lalgudi) did much to
"rescue" the raga from its relative obscurity. The hybridization of Thodi
and Shankarabharanam does not in any way diminish my appreciation for
Charukesi - I'm always pleased when it's presented well. It is a melakartha
raga with plenty of scope for elaboration - so much so, that Pandit Ravi Shankar
has taken it around the world elaborating it for hours at a time. Most recently
he played it (in 1993, I believe) at N.Y's Carnegie Hall and you could hear the
oohs and aahs from an appreciative audience. Everyone is entitled to their
opinion about what they personally like, but attempts to classify Charukesi as
a raga without scope for elaboration seems without basis to me. I wish I
heard it even more!!!
P.S. Lalgudi's varnam in Charukesi is pretty exquisite as well...
All in IMHO
Mahesh
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: The discussion regarding Charukesi is almost amusing to me. Charukesi is
I would also like to add (since Mahesh has mentioned Ravishankar) that
Ustad Amir Khan Saheb has sung Charukesi beautifully. I have 2 exquisite
pieces. I didnt say that Charukesi is a raga without scope for elaborn
only that some ragas offer more scope than others.
muthu(for all ragas)kumar
------
V. S. Sridharan
> But Charukesi is not, to my mind, melodious or pleasing. Half
> of it is Shankarabharanam and the other half is Thodi. So its bhavam
> is neither that of the former nor that of the latter. In fact, I
> cannot detect any distinct bhavam at all in Charukesi. And as RTPs are
> generally long, an RTP in Charukesi would be pretty sure to send most
> of the audience to sleep.
>
> I myself put them at the lowermost end of the aesthetic scale>
I have never heard anything that is more ridiculous than saying a certain raga is half of this and half of the other. Each raga has its own identity and has its own expression. If you want to appreciate Charukesi, listen to Lalgudi's varnam 'Innum En Manam' with an open mind. There are a couple of film songs in Charukesi that are quite good also: Katthadichu, Varaccholladi, Ragam Tanam Pallavi.
Your comment about Kalyani and Shankarabharanam are also most amusing. The latter, in fact, is the most versatile raga which has no bounds in scope and is the basis for music all over the world. These are the two ragas that have most compositions based on, in Indian music, counting classical as well as film songs. So, you may want to consider reconstructing your aesthetic scale.
I did not want to simply dismiss your comments because you had written some statements appearing to represent the rest of us.
Sridhar
Srini Pichumani
It is certainly getting "curiouser and curiouser" !
In any case, whether Yesudas sings a good RTP in
Charukesi or not, he has sung a haunting old
movie song - in the Malayalam and Tamil movie
"tulAbhAram" - based on this scale; the opening
lines of this song are
kARRadiccu kODum kARRadiccu (mal.)
kARRinilE perum kARRinilE (tam.)
-Srini.
V. Chandramouli
|> Well, I would not go to the extent of saying that an RTP in Charukesi
|> repels me to the extent that I would walk out of the concert.
|> But Charukesi is not, to my mind, melodious or pleasing. Half
|> of it is Shankarabharanam and the other half is Thodi. So its bhavam
|> is neither that of the former nor that of the latter. In fact, I
|> cannot detect any distinct bhavam at all in Charukesi. And as RTPs are
|> generally long, an RTP in Charukesi would be pretty sure to send most
|> of the audience to sleep.
|>
|> On the whole, I am inclined to applaud Ravichandran Mahalingam's
|> tone. Music is emphatically one of those fields where one ought to
|> have strong views and express them fearlessly. Coem on, Ravi! Lets
|> hear more from you. What do you think about Kalyani and Shankarabharanam?
|> I myself put them at the lowermost end of the aesthetic scale. Well,
|> almost. Charukesi comes even lower !
|>
|> K.S.Venkatesh
It is a silly statement, IMO. So is Harikambhoji also devoid of Bhavam
because the first half is Shankarabharanam and the second half Kharaharapriya ?!!
By your logic , you are making many of the melakartas devoid of bhavam.
Can anyone dispute Shubhapantuvarli's bhavam, whose first half is Todi and second
half Pantuvarali? Since this scheme is based on the principle of permutation and combination, combinations such as Charukesi are unavoidable.
IMO, an RTP is a medium for improvising on both melodic and rhythmic dimension.
So an RTP even in a Vivadi raga is fine, if it is a truly creative effort.
For instance, there is an RTP by Semangudi in Varali. But if most of the
audience were like these two gentlemen, I suppose he would be singing to a
snoring audience :-). After all the first half of Varali is Vivadi and the second
half Pantuvarali:-)
--Chandramouli
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: --Chandramouli
:----------------
Way to go!! Dont forget to "ban" Shanmukhapriya from RTP likewise.
muthu(for all ragas-Vivadi and Samvadi)kumar
Srikanth Gopalan
Pandit Ravi Shankar
: has taken it around the world elaborating it for hours at a time. Most recently
: he played it (in 1993, I believe) at N.Y's Carnegie Hall and you could hear the
: oohs and aahs from an appreciative audience. Everyone is entitled to their
: opinion about what they personally like, but attempts to classify Charukesi as
: a raga without scope for elaboration seems without basis to me. I wish I
: heard it even more!!!
: P.S. Lalgudi's varnam in Charukesi is pretty exquisite as well...
:
: All in IMHO
: Mahesh
Ustad Amir Khan has rendered a beautiful and very moving khayal in Charukesi-
"Laaj Karo". Netters might want to check that one out too.
-Srikanth.
Bhalchandra Thatte
half of another, or 1/3 of one rags and 1/4 of another and ...
(I have to do some calculation here.)?
Bhalchandra Thatte
V. Chandramouli
|> Your example is an unfortunate one. Harikambodi, in my opinion,
|> IS very very dry. This also appears to be the opinion of most
|> musicians, who seldom choose this raga for elaborate treatment.
|> In over 15 years of listening to concerts, I don't recall even a
|> single artiste singing a major piece or an RTP in Harikambodi.
|>
|> But I agree with you that my original logic was flawed (I never
|> intended it to be taken seriously). Mohana Kalyani is quite pleasing.
|> So is Bilahari.
|>
|> K.S.Venkatesh
Please clarify on what statistical basis do you define "most" ???
I guess you hae never heard of "Rama ninnu brovara..." rendered by MS. It
seemed very devotional to me. She even preceded it with an alapanai and a
neraval on "mepula kai" followed by kalpana swarams. Isn't this elaborate
enough, except perhaps RTP ?
I am almost certain that it is in Harikambodi (netters, pl. correct me
if wrong). I will tender a public apology to Mr. Venkatesh and take a one month leave of absence from rmic if I am wrong:-). I wonder what you have been listening to in the last 15 years.
Anyway, by your own account, your posts are not to be taken seriously :-)
Therefore, this shall be my last reply to your post no matter how ridiculous
it may be.
--Chandramouli
Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan
|> Well, I would not go to the extent of saying that an RTP in Charukesi
|> repels me to the extent that I would walk out of the concert.
|> But Charukesi is not, to my mind, melodious or pleasing. Half
|> of it is Shankarabharanam and the other half is Thodi. So its bhavam
|> is neither that of the former nor that of the latter. In fact, I
|> cannot detect any distinct bhavam at all in Charukesi. And as RTPs are
|> generally long, an RTP in Charukesi would be pretty sure to send most
|> of the audience to sleep.
|>
I can assure you that you will never enjoy Charukesi ( associate
any bhava with it ), if you think of it as Shankarabharanam +
Thodi put together. With this kind of note based reasoning the
best you can do is to come up with "new" ragas. I feel that this
kind of note based reasoning affects ones appreciation of music.
Subu
Srikanth Gopalan
: Your example is an unfortunate one. Harikambodi, in my opinion,
: IS very very dry. This also appears to be the opinion of most
: musicians, who seldom choose this raga for elaborate treatment.
: In over 15 years of listening to concerts, I don't recall even a
: single artiste singing a major piece or an RTP in Harikambodi.
: But I agree with you that my original logic was flawed (I never
: intended it to be taken seriously). Mohana Kalyani is quite pleasing.
: So is Bilahari.
: K.S.Venkatesh
Seems like you have a problem dude. Want to hear good pieces in Harikha
mboji? Try MS's" Rama Nannu Brovara". Or the Hyderabad Brothers' "Dina
mani Vamsa".
-Srikanth.
K.S. Venkatesh
Sri_G
: Ustad Amir Khan has rendered a beautiful and very moving khayal in Charukesi-
: "Laaj Karo". Netters might want to check that one out too.
: -Srikanth.
While on this thread, Pt. Shiv Kumar Sharma played a piece in Charukesi on
his visit to Buffalo two years ago. He introduced Charukesi as a "beautiful rAg
from the Carnatic tradition" if I recall correctly.
SriG
--
Sriganesh Madhvanath
Grad student, Dept of CS, SUNY at Buffalo email: mad...@cs.buffalo.edu
Sundaram Sridharan
K.S. Venkatesh <c1ve...@watson.ibm.com> wrote:
>Well, I would not go to the extent of saying that an RTP in Charukesi
>repels me to the extent that I would walk out of the concert.
>But Charukesi is not, to my mind, melodious or pleasing. Half
>of it is Shankarabharanam and the other half is Thodi. So its bhavam
A minor nitpicking. I always thought Charukesi sounded like a combination of
Sankarabharanam and Shanmukhapriya eventhough both Todi and Shanmukhapriya
have the same set of D1 and N1 swaras. Is it because of the difference in
emphasis on D1 and N1 in these two ragas? (Isn't N1 more emphasized compared
to D1 in Charukesi?)
Sridhar
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: Your example is an unfortunate one. Harikambodi, in my opinion,
: K.S.Venkatesh
------------
I am sorry, but the reason most musicians avoid singing H.Kambodi is
not because it is "dry" but because it is a delicate exercise. H.K. is
a classic example where the Janya ragas have become "stronger". To listen
to a good H.Kambodi I suggest you approach any OduvAr. There are some
superb Tevarams in this raga.
muthu
Pramod Mahadev
I guess you should go beyond 15 yeasrs of listening.
M.S in a U.N concert at New York in 1966, sang Rama Nannu Brovara in
Hari Kamboji, and the piece was for 8 to 10 minutes.
Pramod
Shiva Shivakumar
>Unni Narayanan (un...@ta20.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: Hi Folks:
>
>: The following is an article i posted 6 months
>: ago on alt.culture.kerala. I didn't get any response
>: there - I thought I'd post here.
>
>: Basically, the post was a reply to someone's query
>: about Yesudas' skill in Carnatic music - the following
>: was my reply.
>
>: Hoping to stimulate some discussion:
>
>: Unni
>
>: ps: Please don't flame me - I am not trying to start a
>: war - just a discussion.
>: ==================================================================
>
The generalization about non-Telugu singers in this posting is not
surprising coming from a person from the 'one-musician' state ! :-) :-)
I hope the non-Telugu vocalists pay attention to such opinions and
not only fix their Telugu but also start respecting non-Telugu compositions
Talking about pronounciation and complete sentences, the meaning is brought
out much better when you recite the words than singing them ! I am sure
NTR, ANR and Jaggiah will deliver 'ksheera sagara sayana!!! nannu
chintalu pettavalena ?!? ' much better than MBMK !!
I am reminded of someone asking me why 'Vatapi Ganapathim Bajeham' has to
be sung 'so many times' when once or twice is enough to convey the meaning !
regards,
Jagadi sanShi vakumar ( in true non-Telugu tradition !)
Venkatram Krishnamoorthi; Masters
I entirely agree with your views about Charukesi. I also have a rendition of the raga by Lalgudi and it is
beautiful (but anything Lalgudi renders has to be beautiful, right :))
Why anyone should not sing an RTP in Charukesi or any other raga is beyond understanding! If the artiste
has the ability to sing a rare or limited raga with flair and competence, then I don't see why not. Which
rule book says that RTPs are only good in Kalyani, Thodi, etc.
Of course, I don't know if Yesudas is the person to try such a thing!
regards,
venkat
N R Panchapakesan
Or any of Ariyakkudi renditions, in particular 'enthara nee dhana' - one
of my all time favourites.
Panch
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: Panch
------
Having come all this way from Jesudas, I thought I might as well add the
following re Harikambodi. GNB sings "SAketa.." superbly with Neraval
Swara in "Rajita.." and for people who havent heard it I suggest you
get hold of this piece esp with Palani on the Mridangam. Netters who
might have attended Margazhi Bhajans of Papanasam Sivan (or his disciples)
would always remember Shri Mani Iyer (Sivan's foremost disciple and who
was also a teacher in Kalakshetra for sometime) singing "Kamala Pada" of
Sivan-a classic H.Kambodi. One of my favorite H.K. pieces is "Muruga Tiru
mal Maruga" composed by Tanjavur Shri Sankara Iyer. It also has a great
Neraval line, "KaruNai KadalE..". DKJ used to sing this beautifully. He
also used to sing "Enathu Manam.." of Sivan (H.K. again). 2 years ago,
I heard Santhanagopalan sing a very elaborate H.K.ragam followed by Muruga
Tirumal.. I dont know if he sang this anywhere when he toured the US
recently.
muthu
---------
Kannan Muthukkaruppan
>N R Panchapakesan (pa...@sungear.mame.mu.OZ.AU) wrote:
>: In article <3cl89r$h...@magus.cs.utah.edu>, sgop...@cadehp2.eng.utah.edu (Srikanth Gopalan) writes:
>: > K.S. Venkatesh (c1ve...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
>: > : Your example is an unfortunate one. Harikambodi, in my opinion,
>: > : IS very very dry. This also appears to be the opinion of most
>: > : musicians, who seldom choose this raga for elaborate treatment.
>: > : In over 15 years of listening to concerts, I don't recall even a
>: > : single artiste singing a major piece or an RTP in Harikambodi.
>: >
Also, "Chanithodi Theve" (Hari.K.)! Esp. DKJ's rendering is tooms..
cheers,
Kannan
Thyagarajan Mohan
I'm afraid this example is not in favour of carukEshi.I
feel like taking a shower after listening this song :-).The only other
composition that creates this mood is `mAnasa sancararE' rendered by
BMK.
cArukEeshi evokes the feeling of being in the state of
`samAdhi' which always is described as the ultimate pleasure (brahmAnandam)
I feel persons who can enjoy shubhapantuvarALi can definitely derive pleasure
out of cArukEshi.
MOHAN
--
Thyagarajan Mohan
tmo...@iastate.edu
Srini Pichumani
>> kARRinilE perum kARRinilE (tam.)
>>
>>-Srini.
>
>I'm afraid this example is not in favour of carukEshi.
I disagree. As I mentioned, it is based on the cArukEshi
scale; this song does a pretty good job of projecting a
melodic entity independent of Todi/Shankarabharanam
associations which was one of the original charges at the
outset of this cArukeshi discussion.
>>I feel like taking a shower after listening this song :-).
Funereal perhaps ?
If that is the case, I would say that the movie context
is perhaps too strongly etched in your memory. As a
friend wrote to me about that movie, "Thulabharam is the
quintessential example of the heart-breaking tragedy that
Malayalam Cinema is famous for"...
>cArukEeshi evokes the feeling of being in the state of
>`samAdhi' which always is described as the ultimate
>pleasure (brahmAnandam)
NOT !
Not for me at least ... having heard "ADa mODi galada -
rAmayya mATalADa moDi galada" rendered with exquisite
bhAva by Lalgudi, with the tender suggestion of the
words strengthened by the D1, I can only associate a
tender/beseeching/plaintive/melancholy feeling with
this rAgam.
-Srini.
Thyagarajan Mohan
>In article <3csnpr$g...@news.iastate.edu>, Thyagarajan Mohan
><tmo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>> kARRinilE perum kARRinilE (tam.)
>>>
>>>-Srini.
>>
>>I'm afraid this example is not in favour of carukEshi.
>
>I disagree. As I mentioned, it is based on the cArukEshi
>scale; this song does a pretty good job of projecting a
>melodic entity independent of Todi/Shankarabharanam
>associations which was one of the original charges at the
>outset of this cArukeshi discussion.
This is based on the scale of cArukEshi-I do agree.
The discussion about this rAga is whether it's suitable for
RTP,what kind of feeling it evokes.The film song what you
referred to has only melanchloy in its music( I don't consider
the context of the movie or the lyrics). There are very good
Tamil film songs in this rAga which are pleasant to listen
to. e.g:`gAna alOlan mathana gOPalan'(MLV in nalla tambi),`vAzhiya
nIDUzhi puvi mIdilE(P.Leela and Radha Jayalakshmi in aRivALi)
`vasanta mullai pOlE'(TMS in sArangadharA) or the best of all,
`manmatha lIlaiyai venRAr uNDO?'(MKT in haridAs.I have been told that
the critics of yesteryears were full of praise for MKT to
render this rAga in such a pleasant manner).Atleast I know one
more film song which is full of melancholy-`nIyE gati Ishvari'
(P.Leela in saubhAgyavati!).
Already peole have interesting opinions about cArukEshi and
RTP in that.If you give `kARRinilE..' as example,after listening
to such a sad song, they may give up listening to carukEshi-that is
what I meant by my previous stt.`not in favour of'.
>NOT !
>
>Not for me at least ... having heard "ADa mODi galada -
>rAmayya mATalADa moDi galada" rendered with exquisite
>bhAva by Lalgudi, with the tender suggestion of the
>words strengthened by the D1, I can only associate a
>tender/beseeching/plaintive/melancholy feeling with
>this rAgam.
Coming to this point of d1,(You may remember the
discussion about AbhEri and nagumOmu-whether to use d1 or d2-why?).
the melancholy feeling is reinforced by d1.Carnatic music doesn't
emphasize too much on the mood(rasa) associated with a rAga.However,
some moods are predominant in certain rAgAs.In cArukEshi it's melancholy
and pathos.
>-Srini.
Regards
MOHAN
ps: To my knowledge, nobody considers / handles cArukEshi as a hybrid
of shankarAbharaNam and tODi (or anything for that matter)- not even
in film music.rAga is much more than just a scale.
--
Thyagarajan Mohan
tmo...@iastate.edu
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: In article <3csnpr$g...@news.iastate.edu>, Thyagarajan Mohan
: Funereal perhaps ?
: NOT !
: -Srini.
----------------
I say, what is this Samadhi and funereal bit. For me, Charukesi is
always "Manmada Leelayai VendrAr UNdO..?"
muthu
kishen bhagavan
(Ravichandran Mahalingam) writes:
>
>Santhanam (ksan...@violet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>
>: For me, I find that Jesudhas' music fails to produce _any_ positive
>: response. The highlight for me was a concert a few months back where
>
>.......
>: hear Raghuvara in Panthuvaraali from Jesudhas if it is anything like
>: the concert I went to. If one wants to listen to a good Raghuvara I
>: strongly recommend KVN :)
>
>: There is no way conceivable that Jesudhas can be compared to the
likes
>: of GNB, KVN, MS, etc. (as the prior article seemed to suggest). The
>
>
>dear mr gopal,
>
>i fully endorse your view. If somebody does RTP in charukesi, it
>is not worth listening to that concert. the best thing to do is to
>stage a walkout..
>
>when i was working in MAS, i happened to go near Music academy, it was
>not during music season. i stoppped by Music academy to see what was
going
>on. they told me that Yesudas was singing, cost of the ticket was
10Rs.
>2 days later, in the same series of concerts, U Srinivas was
performing.
>The cost of the ticket for his concert was Rs.5.00. I was shocked to
>hear that and it was visible in my face. Then the man at the counter
>told me, "Sir, dont be perturbed.. The people are like thhat.. they
pay
>more money becos he is a famous artiste.."
>
>So with such people around, we are bound to listen to more of
sub-standard
>music. this is will be the trend till people change themselves..
>
>for the others who dont agree with what i have to say... pl read this
>message...........
>THERE IS BOUND TO BE CHAOS AFTER THIS POSTING. PLEASE DONT IRRITATE
>ME BY SENDING MAILS THAT OPPOSE THIS VIEW. I HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO
THIS
>MUSIC FOR THE PAST 9 YEARS, IN AND AROUND MYLAPORE, MORE NUMBER OF
TIMES
>AT SASTRI HALL, ACADEMY, FINE ARTS.. YOUR MAILS WILL NOT CHANGE MY
VIEWS.
>
>
>with regards
>m.r
>
>--
>Ravichandran Mahalingam, MS (Civil). ravi...@engr.latech.edu
>P.O. Box 8342, Ruston, LA 71272 phone# (318)-255-5948
>**********************************************************************
>* Whose undertakings are all devoid of desires and purpose, and *
>* whose actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge, him *
>* the "wise" call a SAGE. *
>* -Srimad Bhagawad Geeta, chapter 4, verse 19. *
>**********************************************************************
>
I agree with Ravi "WHOLEHEARTEDLY"!!! It is inconcievable to discuss
Jesudas and GNB et al in the same vein.
Kishen
M. Vinay
I find this most amusing, as Balamuralikrishna pointed out exactly this (fallacy) in a lecture demonstration (in reply to a question about gamakas). He sang a phrase which was a very clear Shankarabharanam and then, without break, transitioned into a very clear Thodi and asked "Is this Charukeshi?". He was making a point about the importance of gamakas in the identity of a raga.
Charukeshi is completely different from Shankarabharanam and Thodi because both these (latter) ragas have very specific, "heavy" gamakas. Thodi even more so. If you'd said Natabhairavi, it would be okay, there is some similarity between the uttaranga of Natabhairavi and Charukeshi. Or Shanmukhapriya, as Sundaram Sridharan says - and yes, the difference is the gamakas, the Thodi nishada and dhaivata have characteristic gamakas. In fact, there is a difference of only one note (the gandhara) between the two ragas. Yet, they sound very different.
Would you say Shivaranjani is superfluous because it differs from Mohanam by only one note (again, the gandahara)? What about Mohanam and Hamsadhwani (nishadam)? Revagupti and Mohanam? Mayamalavagowla and Panthuvarali? And oh, what about Chittaranjani and Kharaharapriya? Exactly the same notes, and the same arahonana and avarahona, except Chittaranjani stops before reaching the tara shadja.
And as others have pointed out, many other melakartha ragas are also half one raga and half another. Nay, ALL melakartha ragas are so.
Try actually listening to some good renditions before claiming such absurdities based on the note structure.
