kEdAr and hamir kalyAnI
Mohan Krishnamoorthy
concert. In this concert, he plays an excellent RTP
in shankharAbharanam. He then launches into a rather
expansive rAgamAlikA swarA-s suite, in which he plays
in excess of 10 rAgA-s. After playing a few phrases,
he'd stop to announce the rAgA. I was doing reasonably
well with the inevitable `identify-before-he-announces'
game till he played a piece in what seemed like hamir
kalyAnI to me. He announced it as kEdAr...
Will some knowledgeable nettor point out the similarities
to me? Is kEdAr the HindustanI equivalent of hamir kalyAnI.
Isn't hamir kalyAnI itself an `import' from Hindustani
music? Is kEdAr similar to Carnatic music's kEdAram?
I know how annoying it is to me when someone sparks off
a discussion on the rEvaguptI-bowlI thing all over again.
So, if this has been already been discussed on RMIC, pls
let me know and I will search through the archives :-)
BTW, I was rather disturbed by the needless discussion
on the relative (de)merits of the great violin trio of
Lalgudi, MSG and TNK. Why can't we merely accept that
they are all great and enjoy all of them for what they
are individually good at? I think I will post on this
topic separately though...
/Mohan
-------
Mohan Krishnamoorthy, CSIRO, Div of Maths and Stats (OR Group),
(Off) 71 Normamby Road, Gate 7, CSIRO, Clayton 3169, Australia.
Or: Pvt Bag 10, Rosebank MDC, Clayton, VIC 3169, Australia.
Phone: (Off) +61 3 545 8042; Fax: +61 3 545 8080;
email: Mohan.Kris...@dms.CSIRO.AU
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: tha...@math.ohio-state.edu (Bhalchandra Thatte) writes:
: >In article <3dvmu7$j...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
: >Mohan Krishnamoorthy <mo...@tau.mel.dms.CSIRO.AU> wrote:
: >>Will some knowledgeable nettor point out the similarities
: >>to me? Is kEdAr the HindustanI equivalent of hamir kalyAnI.
: >>Isn't hamir kalyAnI itself an `import' from Hindustani
: >>music? Is kEdAr similar to Carnatic music's kEdAram?
: >>
: ># I am not knowledgeable about these things.
: >I do not know if Hamir is different from Hamir KalyAnI.
: If I remember correctly, Hamir Kalyani is indeed the Carnatic
: equivalent of Kedar (nomenclature can be quite misleading in
: the business of Ragas).
: >I am not very sure about the following, but I think:
: >A typical phrases in Kedar are S m G P M P D P M P m S R S
: > M P S^ D P m
: Yes, you are quite right (I take it that your m = shuddha ma
: and M = tivra). The meend in Kedara from the dhaivat to the shuddha
: madhyam is very critical in establishing its character.
: >while in Hamir we don't have M P m, but we have
: >M P G m D
: >R G m D P G m D
: >P G m R S
: >S R G m D
: >There is no n in Hamir, but (perhaps) there is n in Kedar. At least
: >the song "Ham-ko man-ki shakti dena ..." has both n and N. n in Kedar
: >must be rare.
: The canonical Kedara uses both the nishads and neither commands very
: much weight. But given the fact that Kedar is a vakra Raga, there is
: latitude available in the treatment of the two nishads. Sometimes the
: komal nishad is altogether dispensed with or, at best, used sparingly.
: If it is used, it is via the phrase: M P D n D P. The shuddha nishad
: has more freedom as in:
: M P D N S"
: S" R" N S"
: and sometimes even D' N' R S.
----------------
Rajan has said almost all - just want to add a couple of points. In
addn to M P D N S and S" R" N S" the phrase S" N R" S" is also used.
When I learnt Kedar my teacher told me to avoid n altogether (though he
used it sparingly himself as M P D n D P and giving a wicked grin at me).
Amir Khan Saheb has sung Kedar with n and it is called Chandni Kedar.
I think H.Kalyani in C. Music is identical to Kedar. Coming to Hameer, the
Dhaivat is much stronger and G M D is a typical phrase. Here, I was taught
to hit the D from N as G M N+D. There is a great Dhrupad (Sool Tal-fast)
in Hameer-"Pancha Vadana Mukha.." Some of you may have heard it.
muthu
----
Rajan P. Parrikar
>In article <3dvmu7$j...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>Mohan Krishnamoorthy <mo...@tau.mel.dms.CSIRO.AU> wrote:
>>Will some knowledgeable nettor point out the similarities
>>to me? Is kEdAr the HindustanI equivalent of hamir kalyAnI.
>>Isn't hamir kalyAnI itself an `import' from Hindustani
>>music? Is kEdAr similar to Carnatic music's kEdAram?
>>
># I am not knowledgeable about these things.
>I do not know if Hamir is different from Hamir KalyAnI.
If I remember correctly, Hamir Kalyani is indeed the Carnatic
equivalent of Kedar (nomenclature can be quite misleading in
the business of Ragas).
>I am not very sure about the following, but I think:
>A typical phrases in Kedar are S m G P M P D P M P m S R S
> M P S^ D P m
Yes, you are quite right (I take it that your m = shuddha ma
and M = tivra). The meend in Kedara from the dhaivat to the shuddha
madhyam is very critical in establishing its character.
>while in Hamir we don't have M P m, but we have
>M P G m D
>R G m D P G m D
>P G m R S
>S R G m D
>S R G m cannot occur in Kedar, it must be very rare if at all it occurs.
If it does occur, then it shouldn't be called Kedara anymore.
>There is no n in Hamir, but (perhaps) there is n in Kedar. At least
>the song "Ham-ko man-ki shakti dena ..." has both n and N. n in Kedar
>must be rare.
The canonical Kedara uses both the nishads and neither commands very
much weight. But given the fact that Kedar is a vakra Raga, there is
latitude available in the treatment of the two nishads. Sometimes the
komal nishad is altogether dispensed with or, at best, used sparingly.
If it is used, it is via the phrase: M P D n D P. The shuddha nishad
has more freedom as in:
M P D N S"
S" R" N S"
and sometimes even D' N' R S.
Btw, Bhimsen has a superb recording in Raga Shuddha Kedara where the
shuddha nishad plays an elevated role, komal nishad is omitted and
the meend de-emphasized.
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
ra...@anteng.ssd.loral.com
Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan
Well, Kedara of hindustani has no resemblence to carnatic kedara for sure.
Carnatic hamir kalyani is supposed to have come from the north. But it
does not seem to have the same scale as hamir kalyan of hindustani music.
I hear smGMP in carnatic renditions of hamir kalyan, which
is not found in the textbook scales below.
From Subba Rao's book "Raga Nidhi":
Hindustani Kedar(a):
====================
Aaroh: Sm~mPDPNDS
Avaroh: SNDPMPDPmgmRS
Vadi : m
Sam vadi: S
* Jeeva swara is shuddha madhyama, though both Mas are used
* Komal ni is sparingly used, specifically as: SNDPMPDnDPmgmRs in the avaroh
* In some versions of Kedar, komal ni is omitted altogether
* SNDnP and DPMms occur in rare sancharas
* Ga is a week note
Close ragas: Shuddha Kedar -> M and n are not used.
Chandani Kedar-> Ga is a prominent note.
so,
Hindustani Shuddha Kedar:
=========================
Aaroh: smmPDPNDS
Avaroh: SNDPmPDPGRS
Hindustani Hamir Kalyan or Hameer:
==================================
Aaroh: SNSGmDNDS
Avaroh: SNDPDnPGMDMPDPGmRS
Vadi : D ( some say it is P )
Sam vadi: G
* M is used only in the avaroha
* Some versions are without M
Carnatic Hamir Kalyani:
=======================
From K Santhanam's list:
------------------------
Hamirkalyani |65| S P M2 P D2 N3 S | SN3D2PM2M1G3PM1R2S
Subba Rao's book gives two versions which are different from the above:
(1)
Aaroh: SPGPDNS
Avaroh: SNDPGmGRS
(2)
Aaroh: SRGMPDNPDPS
Avaroh: SNDPGmGRS
Does someone know if the Subba Rao's book is still in print? The title is
"Raga Nidhi", a comparative study of equivalent hindustani and carnatic
ragas, published by the Music Academy. If it is out of print, I would like
to make a copy of it before I lose access to this book.
Thanks,
Subu
Shashidhara
>In my earlier I was very tempted to mention this meend, since
>after listening to Rajam's hameer, this meend comes to my mind
>immediately whenever I think of hameer. But I avoided mentioning
>meends because our notation is so weak that it does not describe even
>simple things in the music.
>
>Bhalchandra Thatte
Thatte, you once remarked you know some Elec Engg cats on
this newsgroup. I wonder why they are not piping in with
some wavelet fundas to describe meends ...
Shashidhara
A N Sreeram
attempts have been made (using "western Lines"). Most notably, the
book on Khyal by Prof. Bonnie C. Wade (from UC Berkley) in her book
"Creativity in North Indian Classical Music: Khyal". If one has ever
heard a top level accomplished Pt. or an Ustd., and then having read
the `notations' given in Prof. Wade's book, its immediately apparent
that it doesn't capture the meends, gamaks, kans etc. well. (She addmits
to this problem even in her notation, most humbly, in several portions
of her book.) Briefly, she writes down the notes and then `superimposes' them
with a graphical representation of the movement in tonal space. She has
given hundreds of examples in her book by very well accomplished artists,
for e.g Pt. Bhimsen Joshi, Smt. Gangubai Hangal, Ustd. Bade Ghulaam Ali
Khan, Ustd. Mushtaaq Hussein Khan, Ustd. Abdul Karim Khan, Ustd. Amir Khan,
Pt. Narayanrao Vyas, Pt. D.V.Paluskar, Pt. Vinayak Rao Patwardhan, just
to name a few. Take any one of those examples, and listen to that portion of
the commercial recording cited, the problem with the notation is immediately
apparent. So..........
Well, the above statements simply reemphasize the importance of a good
guru in learning this fundamental art.
KEDAR S NAPHADE
>
>May be we should develop some graphical notation on the "lines"
>of western notation. I think our music is written in a very
>primitive style. In the age of TeX, it should not be difficult to
>write our music much more accurately and much more visual style
>than at least the present primitive style of writing letters.
>
I doubt that would be ever possible ... how for instance would one represent the different komal gandhhaars of bhhimpalasi, miyaa malhaar and darbaari ??
>Bhalchandra Thatte
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
: In article <3e1ta5$o...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
: Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan <rama...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
: >From Subba Rao's book "Raga Nidhi":
: >Hindustani Kedar(a):
: >====================
: >Aaroh: Sm~mPDPNDS
: >Avaroh: SNDPMPDPmgmRS
: >Vadi : m
: >Sam vadi: S
: >
: I didn't understand the Aaroha (the m~m part).
: Also, the aaroha sounds somewhat odd. The DPNDS doesn't quite sound
: Kedar-like. I do not think aarohas and avarohas of ragas should be taken
: too seriously, but if I were to guess from DPNDS, i would guess
: some Malhar (Gaud Malhar?).
: Do you people think aarohas and avarohas are meaningful? They do not
: capture the chalan of the raga. Then why don't we just list the
: set of notes that occur in a raga along with various phrases?
------------------
Not very meaningful, I would say, esp in Ragas such as these when the
Raga is characterized more by phrases than a scale. For instance, I was
taught that the Aaroh of Kedar is SmGP-MPNDS" and the Avaroh as mentioned
in the earlier post. I also felt uncomfortable with singing NDS or even
MPDNS but I would say these phrases shouldnt be considered in isolation.
Most times, when the raga swaroopa is "set" by standard phrases, these
don't sound incongruous. I don't know how to say it any better...
-----------------
: >* Jeeva swara is shuddha madhyama, though both Mas are used
: >* Komal ni is sparingly used, specifically as: SNDPMPDnDPmgmRs in the avaroh
: >* In some versions of Kedar, komal ni is omitted altogether
: >* SNDnP and DPMms occur in rare sancharas
: >* Ga is a week note
: >
: I have some questions here: if DPMms occurs, is the s at the end in
: this phrase actually a part of the following phrase? It sounds somewhat
: odd like DPMms. But if you sing "DPMm sRs", it does not sound odd.
: Also, I assume that PMm above is a gradual meend with only an indication
: of M. Am I right?
-------------
Never heard DPMms- should be pretty rare! DPMm - right, it is a meend. The
M is never distinct. Also sRs when sung in the Avaroh- the R taked the
"Khand" from the lower N so it is actally, s NR s. Personally I always
feel more comfortable with such a phrase while coming back to s rather
than G M R s...
-------
: >Hindustani Shuddha Kedar:
: >=========================
: >Aaroh: smmPDPNDS
: >Avaroh: SNDPmPDPGRS
: >
: Again, this avaroha sounds very odd to me, and I cannot make out
: how to sing ...DPGRS without making it Bhoop-like.
-------------
I guess the M has been omitted inadvertently in the Avaroh. It SHOULD
be G M R S.
------------
muthu
mu...@cip.physik.uni-dortmund.de
[Stuff from previous post deleted]
: -------------
: I guess the M has been omitted inadvertently in the Avaroh. It SHOULD
: be G M R S.
: ------------
muthu
Srini Pichumani
<rama...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>"Raga Nidhi", a comparative study of equivalent hindustani and carnatic
>ragas, published by the Music Academy. If it is out of print, I would like
>to make a copy of it before I lose access to this book.
Yes, it is very much in print. I bought this 4-vol
set for a friend last summer from the Music Academy
itself. Although there is no formal bookstore in
operation on the Academy premises, you can buy various
books and publications from the librarian who works
there.
-Srini.
ps: This 4-vol set was also available in places like
the Karnatic Music Book Centre in Royapettah,
Murali Musicals in T.Nagar, etc.
Srini Pichumani
>
>May be we should develop some graphical notation on the "lines"
>of western notation. I think our music is written in a very
>primitive style. In the age of TeX, it should not be difficult to
>write our music much more accurately and much more visual style
>than at least the present primitive style of writing letters.
In the case of Carnatic music at least, there have been quite a
few developments towards elaborate/accurate notation for writing
down kritis and such. These attempts date back to at least the
last quarter of the 19th century, if not earlier. I will briefly
describe a few general details of such attempts; obviously, one has
to look at these works to see the different levels of notational
detail.
1. A.M.Chinnasvami Mudaliar, a post-graduate and a Government
official, who had studied Western music and piano for about
20 years or so, became very deeply interested in Carnatic music
in the latter half of his life (he lived till the age of about
50, and died around 1901).
Since he knew staff notation very well, he used modified staff
notation with elaborate notes regarding style of performance
etc. to notate 100s of kritis of Tyagaraja, a few kritis of
Dikshitar, and a few random ones like a kriti of Margadarshi
Sesha Iyengar. He collected around 800 kritis of Tyagaraja, a
majority of which were from the Walajapet shiShya parampara of
Venkataramana Bhagavatar and Krishnasvami Bhagavatar (the former
was a direct disciple of TYagaraja).
In the Annals of Oriental music, that he edited himself in the
late 90s of the last century, he published these notations.
He also mentions that he had a violinist of the Madras School
of Music - a Britisher - play these kritis from this extended
notation, to some moderate degree of satisfaction I guess, in
front of the Walajapet maestros.
In some libraries around this continent, this following book
is available:
Oriental music in Europeon <sic> notation
<compiled by> A.M.C. Mudaliyar ;
edited by Gowri Kuppuswamy, M. HariHaran.
New Delhi : Cosmo, 1982.
Reprint. Originally published: Oriental music in European
notation : a monthly periodical. No. 1-10, July 1892-Apr.
1893. With new introduction and Devanagari and Roman
transliteration.
2. The Taccur brothers published music books with notation in
the latter half of last century. I don't know the details of
their work.
3. Chinnasvami Mudaliar came into contact with Subbarama Dikshitar
in the 1890s when they corresponded on the pages of the The Hindu.
CM then brought SD from Ettayapuram in the deep South to Madras,
learnt a lot of music from him, and in turn taught him staff notation,
and beseeched him to write down everything he knew without holding
back anything.
This was the main impetus for SD's monumental publication called
the Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini in 1904 (inevitably, it became
a landmark in printing technology too). In this publication of
over 1700 pages, SD notated hundreds of kritis, varnams, svarjatis,
lakShya/lakShaNa gitams, sULAdis, including about 229 kritis of his
own illustrious ancestor, Muttusvami Dikshitar.
Using various symbols for gamakas, like / \ ~ w ..., and
explaining these clearly based on veena technique, SD wrote this
work in a painstaking manner. There were forewords in English,
Tamil, Telugu, a glossary explaining the gamaka symbols, and other
tALa/octave related information, and then the core of the book
which was written in Telugu script. Special types of all sorts
had to be set to print this book.
While SD was working on this book, CM passed away in 1901. Also,
it was during the final phase of this book production that
Pt.Bhatkande visited SD in Ettayapuram; thru SD, he came to know
the details of the 72 melakarta system, and copied a few portions
from SD's manuscript of the caturdaNDi prakAshikA (the only surviving
manuscript of Venkatamakhi's work which postulated the 72 mela
scheme) which he later published. The Pt. also wrote a English
foreword for SD's other work called "bAla shikShA sampradAya -
prathama abhyAsa pustakamu".
The Madras Music Academy has published this work in 5 volumes in
Tamil script. And the Andhra Pradesh Sangeet Natak Academy has
reprinted the original too, which was a limited edition and seems
to have become scarce very soon after its publication.
This is THE pioneering work as far as attempts at accurate notation
go. Now, as for how much people have benefitted from it, I cannot
say much. It has been of great value to the scholarly musician,
despite the continuous and largely idle charge of unwieldiness.
If people were to listen to different kriti renditions of
musicians/scholars like Prof.S.Ramanathan, S.R.Janakiraman, one can
see how successful such accurate notation can be. Of course, it needs
a lot of dedication, maturity, before someone can learn a kriti from
it. But the same is true when you learn it via a Guru.
Balamurali is a popular musician who seems to have had a lot of use
for it. Some of his renditions of a few rare Dikshitar kritis seem
to be straight out of this book. Many others like Semmangudi, B.Rajam
Iyer, have obviously benefitted from it thru their own teaching/learning.
(Actually, B.Rajam Iyer/ Prof.S.Ramanathan were the ones who worked
on the Music Academy editions)
4. There is of course RangaRamanuja Iyengar's mammoth 4-vol series
called Kritimanimalai, where he has notated 690 kritis of Tyagaraja,
400 kritis of Dikshitar, and others. Many people have mentioned
that they have benefitted tremendously from this work e.g. Voleti
Venkateshvarulu, a master musician. The notation in it is much
simplified compared to the SSP.
5. Smt.Vidya Shankar uses the same notation as SD, with some extensions,
in her book of Syama Sastry compositions.
6. Prof.Emmie Te Nijenhuis has notated a lot of kritis, particularly
Dikshitar's kamalAmbA navAvaraNam, using extended staff notation,
in her book "Sacred Songs of India: Dikshitar's cycle of hymns to
the Goddess Kamala". She mentioned in a phone conversation that
she has a lot more stuff committed to notation, in manuscript form.
7. Meta-studies on notation also have come about. Recently, I saw
a very interesting book in our Music library called
Facets of notation in South Indian music / by Sharada Gopalam.
Notes: Originally presented as the author's thesis (Ph. D.--Mysore
University, 1987) under title: Development of notation in Karnatic
music.
The author has studied the notations of SD, and Smt.Vidya Shankar,
in detail and has provided a lot of useful clarifications for a
student of these texts. Naturally, she has commented on the various
problems/shortcomings too, regarding the communicability of such
notation.
Particularly, she calls the reader's attention towards the various
aspects of a gamaka. There is obviously a movement in pitch for
each gamaka. Additionally, there is a duration and a particular
dynamic for each gamaka (it is in this later aspects that most
musicians display their maturity/immaturity !) which are fairly
complex to notate. The SSP does it reasonably by reference to
veena technique.
The caveat is of course - without a thorough grounding in technique
and understanding, one is prone to make a lot of mistakes in
interpreting such notation.
-Srini.
Ramana Mani
: 5. Smt.Vidya Shankar uses the same notation as SD, with some extensions,
: in her book of Syama Sastry compositions.
Vidya Shankar's father, C.S.Iyer developed his own system of notation and
published one or two volumes of Thyagaraja kritis. From what I remember, it
seemed a good deal simpler than SD's notation.
Ramana