bhUpAlam and rEvaguptI: Differences
Kumaran Santhanam
[...]
: Popular bhUpAlam S R1 G3 P D1 S S D1 P G3 R1 S
: Theoretical bhUpAlam S R1 G2 P D1 S S D1 P G2 R1 S
:
: rEvaguptI S R1 G3 P D1 S S D1 P G3 R1 S
: Baseline: Maayaamaalava Gaula S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N3 S S N3 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
:
[...]
: Curiously yours,
: Viswanathan Krishnan
:
I have a question of my own to anybody who knows the answer:
Which is the melakartha raga associated with the "theoretical"
bhUpAlam?
Maayaamaalava Gaula is definitely the melakartha for "popular"
bhUpAlam and rEvaguptI, but I don't think it is the parent raga for
the "theoretical" bhUpAlam. Of course, I could be wrong ;-). Could
somebody please clarify this matter? Thanks!
: PS: Interestingly, Kumaran's listing of ragas gives the Arohana/avarOhana
: of bhUpAlam as the theoretical version, which is different from rEvaguptI.
This is why:
In the earlier versions of the list, bhUpAlam was originally listed as
being the same as rEvaguptI. Many folks brought the difference to my
attention and I therefore changed it to the "theoretical" version.
However, it is marked with a (*) because I still have not found out
the melakartha for this "theoretical" bhUpAlam.
I think I'm going to split bhUpAlam into a "popular" and "theoretical"
version so that there are two distinct scales given in the list. This
is pending the melakartha information for "theoretical" bhUpAlam, of
course.
Regards,
Kumaran
--
Kumaran Santhanam ksan...@eecs.berkeley.edu
Spark's Ten Rules for the Project Manager:
5) Listen intently while others are arguing the problem. Pounce on a
trite statement and bury them with it.
Thyagarajan Mohan
>Viswanathan Krishnan (kris...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
>[...]
>: Popular bhUpAlam S R1 G3 P D1 S S D1 P G3 R1 S
>: Theoretical bhUpAlam S R1 G2 P D1 S S D1 P G2 R1 S
>:
>: rEvaguptI S R1 G3 P D1 S S D1 P G3 R1 S
>: Baseline: Maayaamaalava Gaula S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N3 S S N3 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
>:
>[...]
>: Curiously yours,
>: Viswanathan Krishnan
>:
>
>I have a question of my own to anybody who knows the answer:
>
>Which is the melakartha raga associated with the "theoretical"
>bhUpAlam?
>
>Maayaamaalava Gaula is definitely the melakartha for "popular"
>bhUpAlam and rEvaguptI, but I don't think it is the parent raga for
>the "theoretical" bhUpAlam. Of course, I could be wrong ;-). Could
>somebody please clarify this matter? Thanks!
The mELakarta for bhupAla is #8 as given by venkaTamakhi.Even muttusvAmi
dIkShitar seemed to have followed the same assignment.However,SubbarAma
dIkShitar in his sangIta sampradAya pradarshini says that it is assigned to the
mELa #9 which is more appropriate because of the rather plain but high
intonation of g2.
Also,SubbarAma dIkShitar mentions/criticizes that some musicians use g3
for bhupALam instead of g2.This perhaps is due to the fact that both the rAgAs
bhupAla(`theoretical')and rEvagupti(popular bhpALam) are associated with dawn.
As I remember the song `shrI gaNEshAtmakam..'by K.J.Jesudoss,the rAga
vInAvadini has the same scale what you mentioned.
The rAga `udaya ravicandrika' is always considered as shuddha dhanyAsi
which is not correct.This uses n3 in its scale and is assigned to mELA #9,
dhEnuka.The song `shrI guruguha mUrttE..' of muttusvAmi dIkShiatar is an
example.Prof.Kauffman mentions that it was decided in a Music Academy
conference in 1933 to use n3 for udaya ravicandrika from then onwards.
Is it being practiced???
>Kumaran Santhanam ksan...@eecs.berkeley.edu
MOHAN
ps:CV,Thank you for getting me sangIta sampradAya pradarshini.
--
Thyagarajan Mohan
tmo...@iastate.edu
Shashidhara
>Any insights into this would be most
>welcome.
>
>Curiously yours,
>Viswanathan Krishnan
>
bhUpAlam (with the lower Ga) is called Bhupali Todi in
Hindustani Music.
Shashidhara
Raghavendra K. Madyastha
This request is directed at all carnatic music enthusiasts. I realize
that a similar request musthave been made in the past and I apologize
for the repetition. Could someone email me a list of carnatic music
CD's they have and where these CD's could be obtained at a resonable
price and quality. Thanks in advance.
raghu
--
Raghavendra Madyastha ragh...@rice.edu
Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering,
Rice University, P.O.Box 1892
Houston, TX 77251
L Ramakrishnan
the 'theoretical' bhUpAlam (S R1 G2 P D1 S, S D1 P G2 R1 S), I supply the
following notes from SubburAma dIkshitar's sangIta sAmpradaya pradarshinI.
< Janya of Bhinnashadjam (mElam 9 in the vEnkatamakhin scheme)
bhUpAlam is an upAnga, audhava, rakti rAga. It bestows auspiciousness (mangala)
to those who render it at dawn. Musical novices that are ignorant of the
tradition of bhUpAla as laid out by rAmAmAtya and vEnkatamakhin sing this
rAga with the antara gAndhara (sic). If one renders it (thus) erroneously,
the rAga will not yield any of the benefits it can. On the other hand, if one
sings it with the sAdhAraNa gAndhara, as prescribed by the lakshaNakAras, it
confers all forms of prosperity >
unambiguous, eh? :-)
Songs in this (original) form of bhUpAla include
'KadanakkanData' - lakshya gIta of vEnkatamakhin
'sadAchalEshvaram bhAvayE' - kRti of MuttusvAmi dIkshitar, a prelude to the
abhayAmbA series
'tandEyAgidAyI' - kRti of purandaradAsa
and several others.
L Ramakrishnan,
Zoology, UT Austin
L Ramakrishnan
"'sadAchalEshvaram bhAvayE' - kRti of MuttusvAmi dIkshitar, a prelude to the
abhayAmbA series"
For some reason I was mixing up sadAchalEshvaram with 'sadAshrayE'.
sadAchalEshvaram is one of the pancha-bhUta kRtis, n'est-ce-pas?
C. R. Selvakumar
Thyagarajan Mohan <tmo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>bhUpAlam and rEvaguptI, but I don't think it is the parent raga for
>>the "theoretical" bhUpAlam. Of course, I could be wrong ;-). Could
>>somebody please clarify this matter? Thanks!
>
> The mELakarta for bhupAla is #8 as given by venkaTamakhi.Even muttusvAmi
>dIkShitar seemed to have followed the same assignment.However,SubbarAma
>dIkShitar in his sangIta sampradAya pradarshini says that it is assigned to the
>mELa #9 which is more appropriate because of the rather plain but high
>intonation of g2.
>
> Also,SubbarAma dIkShitar mentions/criticizes that some musicians use g3
>for bhupALam instead of g2.This perhaps is due to the fact that both the rAgAs
>bhupAla(`theoretical')and rEvagupti(popular bhpALam) are associated with dawn.
Can someone differentiate the differences between
paN puRanIrmai and bhUpALam/rEvagupti ?
( puRanIrmai is supposed to have a slight resemblence to raagam
pauLi (sic) but essentially a bhUpaaLam with andhara kaandhaaram )
Are the differences between rEvagupti and bhUpaaLam more like the
differences between aarabi and saama ? ( in the nature of gamakam ?)
Any help will be appreciated.
[..]
>Thyagarajan Mohan
>tmo...@iastate.edu
Regards -Selvaa
Thyagarajan Mohan
> Can someone differentiate the differences between
> paN puRanIrmai and bhUpALam/rEvagupti ?
> ( puRanIrmai is supposed to have a slight resemblence to raagam
> pauLi (sic) but essentially a bhUpaaLam with andhara kaandhaaram )
>
Since both the rAgAs bhUpALm and rEvagupti have the same
scale,attributed to the same mELa #15,I don't think there is any
difference between these two rAgAs.Prof.Sambhamurthy also says
puRa nIrmai is the same as the bhUpAlam.I have heard this paN from
several OduvArs including Dharmapuram Swaminathan.
> Are the differences between rEvagupti and bhUpaaLam more like the
> differences between aarabi and saama ? ( in the nature of gamakam ?)
> Any help will be appreciated.
Selva!Arabhi and sAma have differences even in their scales.
Gamkam is one of the many characteristics of a rAga.One needs to
consider the nyAsa svara(ending note),tIvra svarA(stress),amsa
(frequently occuring)and more important is its shruti(intonation).
Unfortunately,nowadays,we over theorize and simplify so many things;
the finer aspects of a rAga is slowly getting lost.
To me it appears this is more in Carnatic Music than in Hindistani.
In Hindustani Music,still rAgAs like deshkAr&bhUpAli,bhImplAsi&
dhanashrI etc. can coexist.This is not possible in Carnatic Music as
practiced today.To my naive ears, dEvakriya(venkaTamakhi)sounds a bit
different from modern shuddha sAvEri(dIShitar school assignes dEvakriya
to mELa #28;Modern shuddha sAveri is assigned to mELa #29).But they are
considered one and the same.
>
> Regards -Selvaa
>
MOHAN
--
Thyagarajan Mohan
tmo...@iastate.edu
C. R. Selvakumar
Thyagarajan Mohan <tmo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
[..]
>
> Since both the rAgAs bhUpALm and rEvagupti have the same
> scale,attributed to the same mELa #15,I don't think there is any
Well, there are some confusions here. There is not even an
accepted version of bhUpaalam ( there are two schools at least,
one claiming that andara gandharam and another claiming sAdaaraNa
gandharam). If andara gandharam is accepted as the correct 'ga'
for bhUpaalam, then there is confusion what is the distinguishing
feature of rEvagupti.
> difference between these two rAgAs.Prof.Sambhamurthy also says
> puRa nIrmai is the same as the bhUpAlam.I have heard this paN from
> several OduvArs including Dharmapuram Swaminathan.
Yes, I know that Prof. Sambhamurthy felt that bhUpaalam and
puRanIrmai are close ( same ? i'm not sure about this.).
While Dharamapuram Swaminathan's rendering is considered good by
some, I consider it as serious corruption of the tradition ( unless
you heard him sing the traditional way which he is good at too !)
>
>> Are the differences between rEvagupti and bhUpaaLam more like the
>> differences between aarabi and saama ? ( in the nature of gamakam ?)
>
>> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Selva!Arabhi and sAma have differences even in their scales.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree the scales are different, but the usage 'S R2 M1 P, M1 G3 R2 S'
is common to both Ragas and if one gives a characteristic gamakam
it becomes sAma and when there is no gamakam it looks like Arabhi.
( in Arabhi the G3 is emphasized ).
[ I more enjoy a ragam than analayse
it, so I hope some experts might be able to speak more technically
to elucidate what I was trying to say..]
> Gamkam is one of the many characteristics of a rAga.One needs to
> consider the nyAsa svara(ending note),tIvra svarA(stress),amsa
> (frequently occuring)and more important is its shruti(intonation).
I agree. But I was referring to the S R M P - M G R S prayOgam.
( aside: it is better to refer svaraa as suram, imo, because it
is both correct in Tamil and closer to north indian practice ( sur)
Dr. vi.pa.ka. sundaram had nicely explained the word suram and
its origin in an article in Senthamizh Chelvi sometime ago. ).
> Unfortunately,nowadays,we over theorize and simplify so many things;
> the finer aspects of a rAga is slowly getting lost.
I agree.
>
> To me it appears this is more in Carnatic Music than in Hindistani.
> In Hindustani Music,still rAgAs like deshkAr&bhUpAli,bhImplAsi&
> dhanashrI etc. can coexist.This is not possible in Carnatic Music as
> practiced today.To my naive ears, dEvakriya(venkaTamakhi)sounds a bit
> different from modern shuddha sAvEri(dIShitar school assignes dEvakriya
> to mELa #28;Modern shuddha sAveri is assigned to mELa #29).But they are
> considered one and the same.
>> Regards -Selvaa
> MOHAN
Thanks Mohan, for your thoughts.
Regards -Selvaa
Thyagarajan Mohan
> Well, there are some confusions here. There is not even an
> accepted version of bhUpaalam ( there are two schools at least,
> one claiming that andara gandharam and another claiming sAdaaraNa
> gandharam). If andara gandharam is accepted as the correct 'ga'
> for bhUpaalam, then there is confusion what is the distinguishing
> feature of rEvagupti.
Pl.see the nomenclature carefully.It is the rAga bhUpAla that
uses g2.This remain untouched.
bhUpALam uses g3 and the scale isidentical with rEvagupti.It is
possible that the same rAga is called by two names-this is not new to South
Indian Classical Music.bhUpAlam shoud never be confused with bhUpAla.However,to
clarify,MSS has rendered bhupAla as bhUpAli;I have heard Hyd.Bros.calling this
rAga as shuddha bhUpALam.
The name rEvagupti might have been imported from North.(Are there any
rAga with this name in Hidustani Music?)The famous Tamil Novelist,Chandilyan,
in one of his books (Sorry!don't remember the name) has writen that a rAga
created by the King samudhra gupta is named after his wife rEva,a Greek
Princess.This was known as rEva gupta which has become rEvagupti.
>>
>> Selva!Arabhi and sAma have differences even in their scales.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I agree the scales are different, but the usage 'S R2 M1 P, M1 G3 R2 S'
> is common to both Ragas and if one gives a characteristic gamakam
> it becomes sAma and when there is no gamakam it looks like Arabhi.
> ( in Arabhi the G3 is emphasized ).
> I agree. But I was referring to the S R M P - M G R S prayOgam.
The gamkam(or whatever you refer to)in both these rAgAs are
mainly at r2.If at all,it is only in sAma,and not in Arabhi,that g3 is more
stressed.Because of this,I personally feel that sAma should be assigned to
mELa #28 and Arabhi to #29.(Well!Subbarama Dikshtar says sAma is also derived
from mELa #29;I differ from this)It is impossible for two different upAnga
rAgAs,having the same scale,janyam of the same mELA to exist.
>
> Thanks Mohan, for your thoughts.
> Regards -Selvaa
Regards
C. R. Selvakumar
Thyagarajan Mohan <tmo...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>In article <CqL5I...@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> selv...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (C. R. Selvakumar) writes:
>
>> Well, there are some confusions here. There is not even an
>> accepted version of bhUpaalam ( there are two schools at least,
>> one claiming that andara gandharam and another claiming sAdaaraNa
>> gandharam). If andara gandharam is accepted as the correct 'ga'
>> for bhUpaalam, then there is confusion what is the distinguishing
>> feature of rEvagupti.
>
>
> Pl.see the nomenclature carefully.It is the rAga bhUpAla that
>uses g2.This remain untouched.
>
> bhUpALam uses g3 and the scale isidentical with rEvagupti.It is
>possible that the same rAga is called by two names-this is not new to South
>Indian Classical Music.bhUpAlam shoud never be confused with bhUpAla.However,to
>clarify,MSS has rendered bhupAla as bhUpAli;I have heard Hyd.Bros.calling this
>rAga as shuddha bhUpALam.
I didn't know that there were so many bhU* s.
I was wrongly under the impression that what is known in Tamil
as bUpaaLam was variously referred to in north as bhUpaalam, bhUpaala
etc. ( since omiting the last 'm' is common in north, like
raagam > raaga and this even gets shorter to raag. Similarly
about tamil thaaLam > thaala and becoming thaal or taal.)
>
> The name rEvagupti might have been imported from North.(Are there any
>rAga with this name in Hidustani Music?)The famous Tamil Novelist,Chandilyan,
>in one of his books (Sorry!don't remember the name) has writen that a rAga
>created by the King samudhra gupta is named after his wife rEva,a Greek
>Princess.This was known as rEva gupta which has become rEvagupti.
If you want to cite Chandilyan stories, boy I give up !! :-)
( Frankly I think it is unacceptable cite some story. I am not
discounting the possibility that the story might have been
based on more substantial evidence, but then the evidence should
be cited, imo )
>>>
>>> Selva!Arabhi and sAma have differences even in their scales.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> I agree the scales are different, but the usage 'S R2 M1 P, M1 G3 R2 S'
>> is common to both Ragas and if one gives a characteristic gamakam
>> it becomes sAma and when there is no gamakam it looks like Arabhi.
>> ( in Arabhi the G3 is emphasized ).
>
>> I agree. But I was referring to the S R M P - M G R S prayOgam.
>
>
> The gamkam(or whatever you refer to)in both these rAgAs are
>mainly at r2.If at all,it is only in sAma,and not in Arabhi,that g3 is more
>stressed.Because of this,I personally feel that sAma should be assigned to
>mELa #28 and Arabhi to #29.(Well!Subbarama Dikshtar says sAma is also derived
>from mELa #29;I differ from this)It is impossible for two different upAnga
>rAgAs,having the same scale,janyam of the same mELA to exist.
I was NOT talking about assigning these raagas ( sAma and Arabhi)
to different mELas ! I was trying to find out the basis for the
differences between bhUpaaLam, rEvagupti and puRanIramai and was
wondering whether the _style_ of singing is the main difference
although all the notes are the same and in this context I said
the above mentioned prayOgam. My aim was _not_ to discuss sAma-Arabhi.
( My understanding is that in Arabhi, G3 is stressed. I leave it to
experts to discuss this matter. Anyways thanks Mohan for your view
which is new to me, assuming that it is correct.).
Also, I differ from your assertion in the last line that
'it is impossible for two upAnga rAgas, having same scale, janyam
of the mELa to exist'. rAga lakshaNam or paN is not _confined_ to
such matters ( namely 'same scale, janyam of the same mELa') , imo.
If you have some strict definition of the 'upAnga rAgas' with which
this clashes, call such cases as upAnga-upAnga :-)
Are you saying that Subbaraama dIkshathar didn't know the definition
of 'upAnga rAga' ? ( just curious to know your view; epporuL yaaryaar
vaayk kEtpinum.. = whoever says it, what is said is to be examined for
its truth )
>>
>> Thanks Mohan, for your thoughts.
>> Regards -Selvaa
>
>Regards
>MOHAN
Regards -Selvaa