What is a talam?
Ranjani Saigal
I know this is a stupid question but if someone could send me a FAQ
on this I would appreciate it.
I do know that Talam is a time cycle. I am used to the Carnatic
system . I am familiar with all the talams and do know that the songs once
they pick a talam one has to sing based on that.
But my real question is how did
someone come up with an adi talam or a rupaka talam? Why have those particular
number of beats?
In the recent past for a variety of reasons I have been exposed to the western concept of measure and timing. Also I have been reading about Tals
in the HIndustani system where Tritaal is 16 beats.My question , why not
go with 8 instead of 16 beats?
I guess what may serve me best is for a person who knows both systems
(if you could be so kind) to give me an equivalence of the Hindustani
tals to the Carnatic system. For eg TRi tal seems to have been described
with tabla bols. It says it has 3 Thalis and one Khali. Can one use one's
hands to put trital like you could in karnatic music. And my last question
what are the 71/2 beat tals like. I mean what does a taal that has 1/2 beat
look , sound or feel like?
Please bear with me and enlighten me oh net gurus!
Ranjani Saigal
Manish Kumar
: I know this is a stupid question but if someone could send me a FAQ
:
: Ranjani Saigal
Hi Ranjani,
At the outset let me admit I'm not a guru in Indian Percussion but I did
learn Tabla (Hindustani Style) in my school days, so I'll answer a couple
of ur questions to the best of my ability.
whether a song follows 8-beats(kaharwaa taal) or teen-taal(16- beats) is
based on when and after how many beats the "sum"(pronounced some) occurs
in the song. "Sum" is the logical starting of the sequence of beats.
For the sake of practicality, u can always play 8-beats in teen-taal song
but u wont get the same effect and u can easily make out that something
is "amiss".
eg; in "gori tori paijaniyaan...", the first sum occurs at "yaan.."of
paijaniyaan , where the dhaa(the 1st beat) of teen-taal starts.THe three
taali ( u can literally bajaao taali at these taalis) occur at "yaan.."
, again "yaan.."(in the same continuation) , the khaali occurs at "man"
in "man ke khole bhed sajaniyaan.." and again the last taali occurs at
"khole", after which again the "sum" returns at "bhed...". hence
1) 4 beats - dha-dhin-dhin-dha( taali at first dha, which is the "sum" as well)
2) 4 beats - dha-dhin-dhin-dha( taali at dha, but its not the "sum")
3) 4 beats - dha-tin-tin-ta ( khaali at dha)
4) 4 beats - na-dhin-dhin-dha(3rd taali at na)
THe 8-beat taal suits the songs in which the sum returns every 8 - beats
eg. mere haathon me nau nau choodiyaan.. from chaandni. Usually 8-beat
kaharwa goes well with non-classical popular tunes(Mind it I said "usually"
and there may be exceptions".in this song the sum is at "haathon" and next one
at "nau" - a difference of 8-beats.
To answer ur next question, "YES", u can use ur hands to denote taali and
khaali( in fact as i said before taali literally means "clap" and a khaali
means "empty"). Hence since the 9th beat in teen-taal is not a sum, its
a khaali. u take ur hand away in khaali.
I'll try answering ur first question on my reasoning and limited knowledge.
Somebody came up with teen or roopak taal simply because songs "require"
those many beats and hence they are "indispensable". Which means that u
cant play daadra taal( 6 beats - dha-dhin-dha, taa-tin-taa eg. jane
kahaan gaye woh din by mukesh) with a teen-taal song. it wont simply fit
in. Hence different taals would have been composed based on the beat-sequece
required in different songs.
Hope this trash helps.
By the way i have moved into "hardrock"& "metal" of late and i have been
playing drums. THe similarity between the requirements of claasical nos
and a hardrock no. amazes me, as far as the beats-requirement is concerned.
My knowledge of tabla has immensely helped me in playing drums. Which ofcourse
goes on to prove that music knows no language.
cheers- any more discussions welcome.
Manish Kumar
: man...@bnr.ca (Manish Kumar) wrote:
: > By the way i have moved into "hardrock"& "metal" of late and i have been
: > playing drums. THe similarity between the requirements of claasical nos
: > and a hardrock no. amazes me, as far as the beats-requirement is concerned.
: > My knowledge of tabla has immensely helped me in playing drums. Which ofcourse
: > goes on to prove that music knows no language.
: Long back, in a TV interview/chat, violinist Kunnakkudi R Vaidyanathan
: (Carnatic) spoke about how indian classical and western modern were alike.
: He went on to cite an example (with a clipping from a movie for which he
: had scored the music!) that one of a jazzy pop-like rendition was indeed
: Kalyani (a song is played and a guy reproduces the tune with a Veena - all
: in the middle of a picnic party!) with the words differing in language.
: It is hard to believe that (hard)rock and metal do have timing/...
: They look like (if you see them) some haphazard stuff thrown together.
: Can someone compare (& contrast) them and elaborate?
: Vasan
Hi,
At the outset let me clarify that we are talking about non-thrash/speed,
melodious hardrock bands like guns n' roses, judas priest, deep purple
etc. Let me also stress the fact that melody is a highly subjective term,
driven by the listner's taste,experience and prejudices. I used to be a
hindustani classical fanatic, a few years back - after which I began
to explore hardrock/metal . Basically there can be no song without a
taal ( drum beats in rock numbers). THe beat sequence of a rock number
is exactly same as any indian classical tune, eg. daadra( 6-beats)-
dha-dhin-na, ta-tin-na eg. Jeena yahaan..by mukesh is known as waltz
in theoratical drum-beat language. eg. True Blue by Madonna( althouh
the speed becomes fast(drut) but still it remains daadra).
Coming to heavier music, I hope u have listened to "smoke on the water"
or "highway star" by deep purple or "sweet child" by Guns n roses. All
of them use kaharwa - 8- beat sequence - eg. in rang barse chunar bheege.
THe notable difference is the way variations are done in the two
kinds of music. But the basic beat-sequence remains the same. In fact
ludicurous as it may seem, the high-pitched vocals required for metal
songs ( Halford of Judas priest or Gillan of Deep Purple) are comparable
to that of Pt. Jasraj or Bhimsen Joshi, when they hit the high pitch.
Also let me tell u metal is not"haphazard stuff thrown together"- probably
u havent listened to good metal or started with the wrong bands ( there
is a period in which u transit from classical to rock and it sure takes
some time). I would suggest u start with "scorpions". Apologies, if
u already listen to it.
Anymore discussions welcome.
- manish.
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Manish Kumar
( Working at Wipro Systems,Bangalore,India)
Currently on contract in U.K at BNR,Maidenhead.
Phone : Office 628-770770 (Ext 4130)
Res 628-417627
##################################################
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And what more could u ask from me
How could u say that i never needed u
When u took everything, everything from me"
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Important: Opinions expressed here are mine and have nothing to do with
my company.
Rajan P. Parrikar
<deleted>
> kinds of music. But the basic beat-sequence remains the same. In fact
> ludicurous as it may seem, the high-pitched vocals required for metal
> songs ( Halford of Judas priest or Gillan of Deep Purple) are comparable
> to that of Pt. Jasraj or Bhimsen Joshi, when they hit the high pitch.
Namashkaar!
I dunno no nothin' about Judas priest or the various shades of purple.
To better my understanding, could you please elaborate on this comparison
you draw between them and Jasraj/Bhimsen?
>
> Also let me tell u metal is not"haphazard stuff thrown together"- probably
I am with you on this one. It sounds more like "stuff thrown apart
haphazardly":-)
Dhanyavaad.
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: ra...@anteng.ssd.loral.com
parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
Vasan
> : They look like (if you see them) some haphazard stuff thrown together.
> Also let me tell u metal is not"haphazard stuff thrown together"- probably
Well - actually, I was referring to the visuals !!! - now my confusion is:
whether they were thrown together or thrown apart :-)
Thanks for the feedback - continue with Rajan.
> Anymore discussions welcome.
I am an avid reader - I don't have any input in this regard.
Vasan
V. Chandramouli
I listen mainly to Carnatic music and Old Hindi Film songs and as
you know, both are heavily melody oriented. I also find some
of the Heavy Metal/Rock/Pop tunes quite nice. So far you have talked only about
the similarities in taal(am) but what about raag(am). Perhaps I should call it
scale. Do their scales correspond to any of ours ? Probably there will be many
correspondences between the scales used there and Carnatic Music since the various
permutations combinations are much more well worked out than in Hindustani.
My haunch is they will use lot of Mishra Mela scales than say a "pure" Todi :-)
(I think it is called Bhairavi in Hindustani).
I am also curious as to how often M# is used since I have some fascination for
this note. That is, if you assign some frequency in your band music to be S then
wrt that, is the frequency corresponding to M# used often ? On the same note
(no pun intended), I find the interval between G2 (Saadharna Gandharam in C
or Komal Ga in H) and M# to be very interesting. I was also wondering how this
interval is used in the Band music.
My chief complaint with Heavy Metal is, in fact, the beats and the Electric Guitar!They make it too noisy and I feel the melody is drowned out. But that is just my first impression from limited exposure to my roommate's records.
As I said before, sometimes I find the melody quite good(when I can make it out,
that is). Probably I will appreciate it more if I also come to know the melodic
similarities between Indian Classical and Heavy Metal stuff.
Finally, if one could do a decent job of Carnatic Music, say on the guitar or
Mandolin, do you think switching into Band music will be cakewalk ? The fingering
that develops from playing gamakams should come in handy for doing all those
gimmickry with the E. guitar (no offense intended) :-).
Similarly, does the converse too hold true ? I knew someone in my undergrad
inst. who learnt Veena for 8 yrs. and later switched to Heavy Metal on the
guitar with extreme ease. He was quite successful actually.
I hope we have a pleasant discussion on this.
Thanks,
--Chandramouli