Tilak Shyam
C Parthapratim
Exactly 12 years now, Pt. Ravishankar played in Santiniketan on an
open air stage at Gour Prangan. It was a windy spring evening, and the
overall ambiance was simply mesmerizing. He played Puriya Kalyan
first, then Tilak Shyam, a Khamaj Drut, and finally a Dhun reverse
engineered from a Rabindrasangit. He was accompanied by Anushka
Shankar, and Tanmay Bose. Recording was strictly prohibited, and the
security men had seized a couple of recorders already from here and
there. However, one of my friends sat beside the ampli-box and with a
small recorder hidden under her dresses she recorded the entire
concert. Unfortunately the recorder was in low-battery condition and
the motor speed varied. Moreover, because of high wind, there are some
instances of Doppler effect. Yet, possibly this is the only copy
remaining.
I have tried to restore the track, made it audible at least, but some
defects are still there.
NB. No Hi-Res copy will be uploaded, but this one plays fine on my
computer.
Partha
C Parthapratim
C Parthapratim
Balwant Dixit
concert that was made without the permission of the organizers or the
performers. I personally think that this is not legal and definitely it is
not ethical. ......................BND
"C Parthapratim" <c.parth...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2fd0df7-9004-42ed...@k24g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
C Parthapratim
> I am quite surprised to read that you are making available a recording of a
> concert that was made without the permission of the organizers or the
> performers. I personally think that this is not legal and definitely it is
> not ethical. ......................BND
>
>
> news:c2fd0df7-9004-42ed...@k24g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Today I'll present a stolen recording.
>
> > Exactly 12 years now, Pt. Ravishankar played in Santiniketan on an
> > open air stage at Gour Prangan. It was a windy spring evening, and the
> > overall ambiance was simply mesmerizing. He played Puriya Kalyan
> > first, then Tilak Shyam, a Khamaj Drut, and finally a Dhun reverse
> > engineered from a Rabindrasangit. He was accompanied by Anushka
> > Shankar, and Tanmay Bose. Recording was strictly prohibited, and the
> > security men had seized a couple of recorders already from here and
> > there. However, one of my friends sat beside the ampli-box and with a
> > small recorder hidden under her dresses she recorded the entire
> > concert. Unfortunately the recorder was in low-battery condition and
> > the motor speed varied. Moreover, because of high wind, there are some
> > instances of Doppler effect. Yet, possibly this is the only copy
> > remaining.
>
> > I have tried to restore the track, made it audible at least, but some
> > defects are still there.
>
> > NB. No Hi-Res copy will be uploaded, but this one plays fine on my
> > computer.
>
> > Partha
There are a lot of recordings available in the circuit of the same
status. And personally I don't believe that the organizers or sponsors
of the event ever have any right to prohibit.
Partha
Daniel Fuchs
Balwant Dixit wrote:
>
> I am quite surprised to read that you are making available a recording of a
> concert that was made without the permission of the organizers or the
> performers. I personally think that this is not legal and definitely it is
> not ethical. ......................BND
I very much agree. Not at all a good way to show respect for Panditji...
Daniel
Daniel Fuchs
C Parthapratim wrote:
> There are a lot of recordings available in the circuit of the same
> status. And personally I don't believe that the organizers or sponsors
> of the event ever have any right to prohibit.
>
If this a serious statement, then I am amazed at the sheer stupidity of
it...
Anyhow, first and foremost, it is the artist's decision. So not only was
this illegally recorded, you are now distributing it openly and
illegally. Are you proud of that?
D.
C Parthapratim
Tell me first, are YOU proud that you got an opportunity to remind me
of the (il)legality? No there is nothing to be proud in what I have
been doing; it's not pride, it's a question of responsibility. Music
is all about sharing, I can't deny my share of responsibility to
share, and care a rat who says what.
Daniel Fuchs
C Parthapratim wrote:
> No there is nothing to be proud in what I have
> been doing; it's not pride, it's a question of responsibility. Music
> is all about sharing, I can't deny my share of responsibility to
> share, and care a rat who says what.
So you think you actually have a responsibility to share substandard
recordings of an artist's music, regardless of whether he has apporved
of it? That is actually far beyond stupid...
And no, music is not all about sharing, at least not in the crooked
sense of the word you imply.
But I suddenly had that urge to share my knowledge about your actions
with Google, Mediafire, and you ISP (Reliance)... Call it
responsibility, if you will.
Daniel
C Parthapratim
Please go ahead!
C Parthapratim
However, could anyone kindly transcribe/decipher the entire text of
this song? http://www.mediafire.com/?gwdg1ynygig
Thanks in advance
C Parthapratim
Lot of people downloaded the Thumri, but no one has yet come up with a
transcription!
vinay pande
> The link is here:http://www.mediafire.com/file/3ejzn2zne0q/Ravishankar
> TilakShyam.mp3
what a beautiful bandish--i cant recall where i heard someone singing
something that sounded like it--sakhi ri kaise jaoon shyam milan ko.
but then i cant help thinking how much nicer it would sound in
vilayat khan's hands.
janki bai transcription coming up soon. most of it is clear enough --
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
coming up--
C Parthapratim
That was me Vinay, last year, around this time. :)
C Parthapratim
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
much tougher than i thought---the wobble or scratch across the 78 rpm
makes it tougher still. here is what a non native speaker of urdu can
figure out. will need help from a shia rmic reader to decipher the
rest.
the real frustration is not being able to figure out the last couple
of words of the refrain.
by the way its a naat, not a thumri, i believe.
fanaa kaisi, baqaa kaisi xxxxxxxxxx
fanaa=mortality, baqaa=permanence
kabhi us ghar mein jaa nikle, kabhi is ghar mein aa thahre
muhammad mustafa aur hazrat e yusuf se xxxxxx
to matloob e gul e khaake ??yeh mehboob e khuda thahre
( matloob=requisite)
xxxxx reh gaye hain hazrat e isa
magar arsh e mualla par muhammad mustafa thahre
( some reference to isa is followed by the assertion that muhammad
mustafa occupy the highest point in heaven, arsh e mualla)
xxxxxxxxx--the scratched record here cannot be deciphered --to phir
hami ham hain
ka(h)i bande bane apne, ka(h)i apne khuda thahre
bhalaa xxxx gardish mein ae kashti e ummat
( gardish=misfortune, kashti-e-ummat=boat of the faithful?)
hussain ibn e ali xxxxx ke koi nakhuda thahre
( nakhuda=captain of a vessel)
fanaa kaisi, baqaa kaisi....etc
--janki bai, ilaahabaad
sorry cant do better
v
would like to hear that tilak shyam khayal again...
Rajiv Chakravarti
Mr. Vinay beat me to the reply -- here's what I could figure out.
It is a Na'at - of course, as pointed out by Vinay sahab..
---------
fanaa kaisi, baqaa kaisi, jab un se aashnaa Thehre
kabhi us ghar meiN jaa nikle, kabhi is ghar meiN aa Thehre
Muhammad Mustafa, aur hazrat-e-Yusuf se kya nisbat?
voh matloob-e-ZulaiKhaa the, yeh mehboob-e-Khudaa Thehre
chahaarum aasmaaN pe reh gaye haiN hazrat-e-Eesaa
magar arsh-e-moa'lla par Muhammad Mustafa Thehre
fanaa.fi'llaah jab ham ho chuke haiN to phir hameeN ham haiN [***]
kaheeN bande bane apne, kaheeN apne Khudaa Thehre
bhalaa kis tarha se darpesh aaye kashti-e-ummat [ Not sure of this
line here ]
Hussain ibn-e-'Ali tha, jab ke koi naaKhuda Thehre
---------
This is based on my limited Urdu knowledge and the state of the
recording, hope this helps..
[***] the line as heard in the recording is out of poetic meter. I
would guess here that this is due to the singer, not the original
poet. If I were to myself venture to guess at the "original" version,
it would be:
fanaa.fi'llaah jab ham ho chuke to phir hameeN ham haiN
with no "haiN" in the line.
Regards,
RC
PS: Vinay sahab, any relation to Jyoti Pande sahab?
C Parthapratim
Thanks friends, I am grateful to both. This will be of great help.
I'll also ask someone from the department of Persian and Urdu
literature to verify the whole text once again. Yes this seems to be a
Naat, mislabeled as Thumri.
Partha
P.S. @Vinay: I have lost that recording of Shyam Bilawal, will record
it again and post somewhere.
Partha
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
yes of course rajiv! his brother ..you beat both jyoti and me plus
mr bhutani in warsaw to it---here is what our committee came up with.
it is in virtually total agreement with your version--i will add some
translation for the benefit of friends who do not follow the urdu or
the koranic or the more arcane mystical references..
fanaa kaisi baqa kaisi jab (xxxxunse? sounds right) aashna thehre
kabhi uss ghar mein ja nikle kabhi iss ghar mein aa thehrey
( fanaa=mortality, baqaa= permanence, aashna =friend or lover)
muhammad mustafa aur hazrat e yusuf se kya nisbat
vo matloob e zulekha the yeh mehboob e khuda thehrey
(nisbat=relationship....yusuf was to zulekha--zulekha the egyptian
queen tried to seduce yusuf--ie joseph son of jacob-- what mohd. was
to khuda)
chahaarum aasmaan pe reh gaye hain hazrat e isa
magar arsh e mualla par mohd. mustafa theherey
( chaharam assman is the fourth heaven, jerusalem; arsh e mualla is
the highest heaven)
fanaa.fi'llaah jab ham ho chuke haiN to phir hameeN ham haiN
kaheen bande baney apne kaheen apney khuda thehrey
( we gave up on the first line of this couplet and are absolutely
amazed you could decipher it!!
fanaa fillah=becoming one with god)
bhalaa kis tarah se gardish mein aatee kashti e ummat
hussain ibn e ali sa jab ke koi nakhuda thehre
( gardish=difficulty, kashti e ummat=boat of the faithful, ibn=son of,
nakhuda=captain)
that was one complex naat!! but it finally confessed upon
interrogation. whew!
beautifully sung too.
vinay
Rajiv Chakravarti
Vinay sahab - Glad to make your acquaintance here. I had written to
Jyoti sahab after coming across his old soz.Khwaani by fluke.
Your (committee) version of the last sh'er makes much better sense,
of course -- which is why I had placed my mark along with the line. I
would still stick with my correction for the other out of "behr"
line.
Thanks for clarifying. I think with your annotations, the na'at should
now be decipherable by all the readers. My personal opinion? It is by
no means a "poetic masterpiece," but this kind of poetry should not
only be judged by poetic merit alone. The singing is quite decent,
agreed.
Anyway, thanks again.
Regards,
RC
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
rajiv bhai saheb--you are quite right about "hain" in the penultimate
couplet. agreed it is not great poetry, but was fun deciphering
anyway.
okay-- an unrelated question for you--
what other meaning does "gesuu" have in urdu, other than the obvious
one "hair"?
for example i have been bothered for years by the line in the
beautiful mughal e azam song composed by naushad ali, lyrics by
shakeel badayuni--bekas pe karam keejiye
it goes--
aaee hai museebat ki ghata gesuonwale
lillah meri doobti hui kashti ko bacha de
who is this hairy one lata is referring to in the film song? surely no
character in the movie itself. it could be gesudaraz the sufi saint,
as jyoti suggests, but that sounds too far fetched.
and then the website for urdu poetry lovers on facebook is called
"gesuu-e-urdu". and so on...
btw what a fabulous song this is, lovely kedar. i would rather listen
to great 50s and 60's film music of this standard than the vast
majority of classical musicians of today. i dont know when our music
composers of that era will be recognized for what they were: superb
musicians. all the classical performers of the day were happy to be
associated with film music of the time (the stuff in better taste i
mean). rais khan, ali akbar khan...
v
Abubakr
Hair and tresses yes, but the tresses are also chains for entanglement
of the poet's heart, just as eyelashes are arrows shot by the ''bow"
of the eyebrow, etc.
Rajiv Chakravarti
Vinay and Abubakr saahebaan:
Firstly, my apologies to RMIC as this is "off-topic" for this forum .
To answer the query by Vinay sahab, gesoo really has no "physical"
meaning apart from what you already know. See:
http://dsal1.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.7:1:2465.platts
In the lines you mention (the lovely Kedar song, which is also a
"na'at"), the gesu.oN vaale reference is also to the last Prophet (a
very commonly heard attribution to him, as in "kaali kamli vaale" ,
the one who wore the black blanket/shroud). The lines simply appeal to
the Prophet for "saving a drowning ship"..
However, as Abubakr sahab rightfully pointed out, the poetic
interpretations for gesoo vary (NOT in the mentioned song though) -
Hopefully, this one sh'er by Ghalib can illustrate the connotations of
gesoo..
"qad-o-gesoo meiN Qais-o-Kohkan kee aazmaa'ish hai
jahaaN ham haiN, vahaaN daar-o-rasan kee aazmaa'ish hai"
Translation:
Qais and Kohkan both were tested by the "stature and tresses" of
their beloved.
But where I stand, I am tested with the gallows and the noose
instead
Meaning:
What is the relation between the 2 lines, you may ask? Well, the
tall/graceful stature of the beloved is compared to the "gallows" and
the "curvy dark tresses" to the "noose" ...
A better/detailed explanation can be found in Dr. Pritchett's
excellent site:
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/204/204_02.html?
-------
Hopefully that answers your query. I thank the other RMIC-ers for
allowing a brief "off-topic" discussion here. We can continue talking
outside this forum, if you wish to discuss more, Vinay sahab.
Regards,
RC
Abubakr
wrote:
> On Mar 26, 8:36 am, Abubakr <deltara...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 26, 11:52 pm, vinay pande <vinayspa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > rajiv bhai saheb--you are quite right about "hain" in the penultimate
> > > couplet. agreed it is not great poetry, but was fun deciphering
> > > anyway.
>
> > > okay-- an unrelated question for you--
>
> > > what other meaning does "gesuu" have in urdu, other than the obvious
> > > one "hair"?
>
> > Hair and tresses yes, but the tresses are also chains for entanglement
> > of the poet's heart, just as eyelashes are arrows shot by the ''bow"
> > of the eyebrow, etc.
>
> Vinay and Abubakr saahebaan:
>
> Firstly, my apologies to RMIC as this is "off-topic" for this forum .
>
> To answer the query by Vinay sahab, gesoo really has no "physical"
>
> In the lines you mention (the lovely Kedar song, which is also a
> "na'at"), the gesu.oN vaale reference is also to the last Prophet (a
> very commonly heard attribution to him, as in "kaali kamli vaale" ,
> the one who wore the black blanket/shroud). The lines simply appeal to
> the Prophet for "saving a drowning ship"..
I'm sure you are absolutely correct on this, but it sounds like a
tortured metaphor to me if all giso is signifying is the colour black,
as I have never came upon such a usage before. The darkness (and
scent) of the hair is usually alluded to by references to musk (mushk
or mushkeen such and such).
Rajiv Chakravarti
Abubakr sahab,
I am not implying gesoo.implies black.. I am told the Prophet also had
long, dark hair and the line in the song is a direct reference to it.
That's all. The "kaali kamli vaale" reference was completely
independent, only to serve as another example of "attribution of a
physical characteristic" to Vinay sahab.
RC
Abubakr
Yes, of course, that makes sense. Though it has to be said that I
haven't heard this reference being phrased quite like this before,
but then my urdu is not very good, as you can tell. Are you saying
that "gesu.onwaale" is the usual term in Urdu?
The "kaali kamli vaale" reference was completely
> independent, only to serve as another example of "attribution of a
> physical characteristic" to Vinay sahab.
I see now.
Rajiv Chakravarti
> > I am not implying gesoo.implies black.. I am told the Prophet also had
> > long, dark hair and the line in the song is a direct reference to it.
> > That's all.
>
> Yes, of course, that makes sense. Though it has to be said that I
> haven't heard this reference being phrased quite like this before,
> but then my urdu is not very good, as you can tell. Are you saying
> that "gesu.onwaale" is the usual term in Urdu?
>
No, I agree it is not "common" usage - but that's what it is here.
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
thank you both, rajiv bhaisaheb, abubakr bhaisaheb--
yes i do know the qad-o-gesoo usage from frances pritchett's superb
website but was not able to relate it to the way the metaphor is used
here.
am i correct in presuming you mean that gesuonwaale and lillah should
be read together ( even though it is redundant if you already know
gesuonwale refers to the prophet. i guess you would never say kaali
kamle waale lillah.perhaps that is what abubakr saheb is complaining
about! )
the connection would then be the reference to ghata in the first line,
dark clouds, which threaten to sink my boat.
the metaphor extends throughout the naat as in
toofan ke aasar hain dushwar hai jeena
and this beautiful line
gardish mein taqdeer, bhanwar mein hai safeena.
i cant get over "bhanwar mein hai safeena"--that is just brilliant,
isnt it?
( safeena=scrapbook, approx, for non-urdu readers. and
bhanwar=whirlpool approx, for hindustani challenged readers.)
yes we are waaaaaay off the tilak shyaam topic. apologies to all. but
we were given a tiny bit of room to do so by partha (who started the
thread) when he asked for a translation of the jankibai naat. on
balance i think it has been a good detour, not least if it has cooled
off tempers. some of our friends here wanted file lawsuits didnt
they???? over copyright, artists rights etc etc.
since we are way off topic anyway, and partha has lost his shyaam
bilawal rendering,and staying utterly off topic, and in case some of
you have missed them, here are some absolute treasures that have
surfaced on youtube in the last few days, courtesy i mirza 777 saheb,
one of the potentates of youtube, along with mahakavi aka mirza
jamaal.
the stunner here is a recording of musht(a)ribai, the only one i have
heard. probably also a naat-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz33-wdrTT8
it is not clear which mushtaribai this is. is it akhtaribai's mother
mushtaribai? more likely mushtaribai of agra, amir khan's mother in
law. but a fantastic recording; dont miss it.
and then lata's first recorded hindi film song ( from 1947), a
somewhat tortured rendering of the familiar thumri, paa lagoon kar
jori, good in parts, strange otherwise,but interesting from an
archaelogical point of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_cPe6lp3us
i have never heard the pace varying so much, back and forth, in a
thumri recording. probably the bright idea of one datta davjekar, the
music director. lata was being trained at the time by the superb
amanat ali of dewas, amir khan's great friend.
Abhay
(snip)
> and this beautiful line
> gardish mein taqdeer, bhanwar mein hai safeena.
> i cant get over "bhanwar mein hai safeena"--that is just brilliant,
> isnt it?
> ( safeena=scrapbook, approx, for non-urdu readers. and
'safiinaa' in this context has a more commonly known meaning: a boat.
Why would Shakeel write about a scrapbook in a whirlpool?
Warm regards,
Abhay
C Parthapratim
Exactly! That's what was a little confusing to me too.
C Parthapratim
Thanks for the Mushtaribai link. The voice timbre is very similar to
Akhtaribai's, also pronunciation there. However the structure of the
entire rendition is very Agra-like, and easily reminds one of that
bloke, FK. It's easy to imagine how from this style and Zohrabai's
vigour, FK derived his own genre in Thumri/Dadra.
Confusing, but superb.
vinay pande
>
> - Show quoted text -
the common meaning of safina is indeed boat, and boat stuck in a
whirlpool is the obvious interpretation. but safina also means
notebook--and i think shakeel is being clever here. think of a poet
writing lines on a book, only to have those lines washed away no
sooner has he written them.
it appears this is indeed mushtaribai of agra. amir khan's third wife
was her daughter. and the influence on faiyaz khan of the zohrabai etc
style is palpable. mushtaribai may have been more of a contemporary i
presume. dont know her dates. hear his khamaj thumri "thade rahiyo
baanke yaar"; it is so different from the banaras interpretation of
rasoolan bai.
Siddhartha Chaudhuri
What a wonderful recording of M'bai! Thanks for sharing. Excellent
discussion here, thanks to all who contributed, especially to the
deciphering of the na'at.
> hear his khamaj thumri "thade rahiyo baanke yaar"; it is so
> different from the banaras interpretation of rasoolan bai.
Any chance you could share these recs of FHK and RB? I'll try to
reciprocate with something.
S
Abhay
>
> the common meaning of safina is indeed boat, and boat stuck in a
> whirlpool is the obvious interpretation. but safina also means
> notebook--and i think shakeel is being clever here. think of a poet
> writing lines on a book, only to have those lines washed away no
> sooner has he written them.
FWIW, Shakeel was a classical poet; there is nothing in either this
specific song or any of his other output to suggest inane 'cleverness'
of this kind. But even if this had been Gulzar writing, the flow of
the poem would have made it amply clear that the 'safiinaa' being
referred to here was a boat.
Warm regards,
Abhay
vinay pande
mujhe rokegaa tuu ai naaKhudaa kyaa garq hone se
ki jin ko Duubanaa hai Duub jaate hai.n safiino.n me.n
here too safiinon mein MUST refer to boats. iqbal was a classical poet
too, after all.