Planned our whole week and wknd and day and night and tooling around
this
eventful concert. Even ditched MadrasPavilion grub to ensure prompt
arrival at the concert. Such was the importance coefficient for us.
He started off with Ninnukori.
Ninnu-koooo--riiii-iii-iii-ii-iii-iii-iiiii -- you know the one :)
So did the people behind me, and the people in the 3rd row (behind my
husband).
Ok, so good, we all know it. but does that means we should all sing it
*out loud*
at someone else's concert?!
The same irritating and feel-like-bonking-them-on-the-head behaviour
manifested itself throughout the concert reaching its maddening
climax during Seshagopalan's out-of-this-world Kambhoji ragam.
Thankfully the backseat singers had to surrender after a point when he
was at his best with fantastic brigas (he was just toooo good for even
them).
But when the young violinist got his turn, so did they!
After all, how hard can it be to predict the sangathis that he will
play?!
aiyoo! off key, off tune, off prediction.
Indeed, the audience in carnatic music concerts often feel that it is an
occasion
for their participation.
Those who think they can sing along, sing....
those who can put thalam put thalam (not bad, but...)
those who CANNOT put thalam put thalam anyway, and very vociferously at
that, confusing the artistes.
Maybe we should reword concert announcements as "T.N. Seshagopalan will
lead
the singing. He will be accompanied by <violinist>, <mridangam player>,
among others. Please be seated by 6:30 pm - the concert will not be the
same without your vocal and/or rhythm support."
:-)
Raji Parameswaran
<raj...@writeme.com>
please do not feel bashful about naming the city. i have witnessed this
behavior in concerts in new york and new jersey. i make it a point to wait
until the song is over, turn around (or sideways) and tell them to stop,
politely at first and with increasing levels of rudeness.
audiences should understand that these are not private concerts at their
homes or with a cassette for a sing along. i agree that this is a totally
disgusting habit that should quickly be pointed out publicly.
when i was at iit madras, i had a professor of physics who was an avid fan
of carnatic music. he would berate students and faculty alike, publicly, if
they made any noise during the concert. i learned then that it is necessary
to publicly humiliate the 'sing alongs'.
suresh
Luckily, by the nature of Hindustani music it is difficult to
sing along.
However ...
I have found people doing tritaal (or whatever the taal is) on
hard objects with their hands. Even though they are accurate, nobody
appreciates that.
On certain occastions (and this was in Mumbai) I have found
people whistling the bandish!
But the worse kind of people are not these. Those are the ones
who come to the concert because they want to claim that
"Yes, I went to Kumarji's (substitute your name here) concert".
They do not understand music, nor are trying to make any effort.
They do help to keep the economics of the concert though by
just buying the tickets.
Regards
-Vivek
On the contrary, it is _extremely_ easy to sing along to vocal
Hindustani music too... particularly in the slow and medium tempo,
anyone with a slight amout of pitch sensitivity can piggyback onto
the main performer and hum/sing along... the key is to not try and
repeat everything that the performer does (which is of course
impossible unless you have the equivalent amount of training and
practice) but to just try to capture the broad outline and phrase
endings... done well, it can heighten one's own experience of the
music many times over... has to be done quietly, since one has to
live after all !
-Srini.
So long as they don't noise-pollute the concerts they attend,
I don't see why one should object. Why are they the worse kind?
>They do help to keep the economics of the concert though by
>just buying the tickets.
>-Vivek
Persons who are (or consider themselves) higher than you on the
totem scale of music appreciation might be equally contemptuous
of you, your efforts, doings, etc.
Ashok
1) Latecomers
This is especially irritating because the inter-row distances in concert
halls have been fixed without taking into consideration, the average size of
the latecomer who tries to squeeze him(her)self towards the empty seat in
the middle. The early-birds always occupy the seats nearest the aisles so
that they can sneak out easily as soon as the thani starts! What can be
worse is when the group of latecomers find that the seats they were inching
towards sideways are 'reserved' by hand kerchiefs, purses and the like.
2) Believers in free speech
There are quite a few who listen to an alapana only until they decipher the
ragam. If the artiste decides to postpone the use of the clincher-phrases,
the hiss would rise to such a pitch that all you hear are discordant
exchanges of "Poorvikalyani!!" and "Pantuvarali!!" When the ragam finally
turns out to be poorvikalyani, the pride on the faces of those who guessed
right has to be seen to be believed.
3) Pantomimers
These are the worst distractions. There are two kinds here. The first are
those who try to
grab the attention of a friend and semaphore him to the vacant seat next to
them. These people disturb only their immediate neighbourhood because others
can't be bothered by them much due to the typical concert-hall lighting. The
second and the more irritating kind are those (who invariably fall under the
Latecomer category) who greet the artist with a wide grin and a sycophantic
bow. I would be interested to know (from musicians on rmic) what percentage
of these snobs are really known to the artist on a personal basis. Perhaps I
should try doing this myself someday :-)
4) Parents of Hyperactive Children
The problem with them is that at times they become a bigger nuisance than
the kids they are trying to control!
Regards, Ravi
B Krishnamoorthy wrote:
> I have never been to a concert in the US. But the audience back home is no
> better when it comes to concert-hall manners. Here are a few common
> behaviours which irritates a listener.
> (Probably these have been discussed over a thousand times here. But I am new
> to rmic. Please bear with me)
>
> 1) Latecomers
> 2) Believers in free speech
> 3) Pantomimers
Hmmm...annoying is really the worst you can say for such behavior if they
don't make noise.
>
> >They do help to keep the economics of the concert though by
> >just buying the tickets.
>
> >-Vivek
>
> Persons who are (or consider themselves) higher than you on the
> totem scale of music appreciation might be equally contemptuous
> of you, your efforts, doings, etc.
Yes, it is all relative. My thought - you CAN enjoy a concert without sitting
stiff as a board, and also without disturbing other listeners. I'm guessing
that at concerts I've been to there have been such "distractors", but I
haven't been aware of them because I was trying to tune in to the music.
Recently I've had some funny experiences - some dude trying to start a
conversation with me in the middle of Ulhas Kashalkar's PatBihag. Then how
about Prabha Atre's program - she announces Kalavati, but as soon as the
words "Tan Man Dhan Tope Vaaroon" come out of her mouth, they're followed by
a loud, teenybopperish "YESSSSSS!!!" from some enthused dude, as though this
had been one of Billy Joel's greatest hits, or "O Haseena Zulfon Wali". ( I
like both of these, but it's just weird).
Or how about the guy who yells from the back, "Prabhaaaa jeeeeee, jaaaaagoooon
main saaaaari raaaainaaa" - Maru Bihag doesn't matter, alaap and taans don't
matter, just please sing "Jaagoon Main Saari Raina" - see I know your music,
I've heard your cassette :-) :-) anyway, if the dude was really interested in
classical music, that was sure an interesting way to give a farmaaish.
Rashid Khan's program in NJ also had some funnies, but I think they've already
been talked about, so forget that.
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>...
> 4) Parents of Hyperactive Children
> The problem with them is that at times they become a bigger nuisance
> than
> the kids they are trying to control!
>
>
>
*trying to control*!... you are lucky to find that they are making that
effort!
As a non-Indian attendee, sometimes the only non-indian at concerts
organised by Temples or Tamil organisations I sometimes feel uncomfortable
glaring at the chatters and child-uncontrollers -- a visitor should fit in
with the ways of the family he visits or not visit! But then I consider
the feelings of the musicians.
By the way, lets add another category to bad behaviour at concerts...
PHOTOGRAPHERS, may their flash bulbs burst and their films tear to shreds!
Best Wishes,
N i c k
Nick Haynes.
Hellllo...Is any body home? ..Have you been following the discussion - or
have you just woken up from hybernation and decided to bless the group with a
glimpse of your infinite wisdom? Just because your musical highness can hold
Sruti and perhaps sing up and down the scale without falling off does not
give you the right to 'co-perform' with the artist. If the audience
participation is invited, let that be advertised in big letters so that poor
non-singers like me can stay home. BTW, have you noticed how many established
singers on this forum (people who can not even sing in their bathrooms -
indeed!) have condemned this most irritating practice?
Regards,
Nasy
> By the way, lets add another category to bad behaviour at concerts...
> PHOTOGRAPHERS, may their flash bulbs burst and their films tear to shreds!
Not to mention cellular phones and beepers - may they all turn
into useless heaps of smouldering plastic!
AND lets add...
1. Those who think it's fine to chat, find their seats, leave their seats
etc etc just because the accompanist (however eminent a musician they may
themselves be) is playing rather than the soloist.
2. Ditto for the tani avartanum; I don't ask that everyone be forced to
love percussion solos, but I do ask that every musician on stage be
accorded due respect.
I have no disagreement with the contents of this thread, but it is beginning to sound
like the Lord High Executioner's song from the Mikado:
As someday it may happen that a victim must be found
I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground
And who never would be missed ...
--Toby White
This is true especially with some seating arrangements in make-shift concert
halls resembling that of the mega-movie-complexes (or airlines coach class
:).
>> 2. Ditto for the tani avartanum; I don't ask that everyone be forced to
>> love percussion solos, but I do ask that every musician on stage be
>> accorded due respect.
>I have no disagreement with the contents of this thread, but it is beginning to >sound like the Lord High Executioner's song from the Mikado:
>As someday it may happen that a victim must be found I've got a little list
>Of society offenders who might well be underground And who never would be missed ...
Going past the closure (parsed tangentially in the ditty :), what about the
mannerisms and haute couture of some front-row, as opposed to "back seat",
philistines?
Meena Shanker
>I have no disagreement with the contents of this thread, but it is
>beginning to sound
>like the Lord High Executioner's song from the Mikado:
Heheheheh. Bertrand Russell had a few things to say about
condemnation directed at faceless and nameless adversaries.
In one of his so-called 'Hearst Essays' (a collection
cobbled together from his writing in American newspapers circa 1930)
he writes that to be considered a man of genius "You must always
denounce in such a way that your reader thinks it is the other
fellow who is being denounced and not himself; in that case
he will be impressed by your noble scorn, whereas if he thinks
that it is himself that you are denouncing, he will consider
that you are guilty of ill-bred peevishness. Carlyle remarked:
'The population of England is twenty millions, mostly fools.'
Everybody who read this considered himself one of the exceptions
and therefore enjoyed the remark.....You must denounce persons
whose emotions are atrophied, persons whose perceptions are
limited, persons to whom only plodding study can reveal the truth,
for we all know that these are other people, and we shall therefore
view with sympathy your powerful diagnosis of the evils of the age."
In a very recently released collection, Bertrandji offers some more
sagely advice that can be of immense value to the panjandrums in
our punditocracy.
"[An] important element in the art of persuasion is the skilful
use of platitudes. There are certain time-honoured statements in
favour of which there is no evidence but which nevertheless are
welcomed by all reviewers as showing insight and profundity in
those who utter them. If you say, irrelevantly, in a book, 'We
are all pursuing the same ends though we may disagree as to the
best means of achieving them', every reviewer will pick out the
sentence as a piece of unexpected wisdom. The fact is, of course,
that the statement is nonsense. The murderer and the hangman, for
example, are emphatically not pursuing the same ends. Or again,
if you say, 'While all praise must be given to the man of science
for his careful accumulation of detailed knowledge, it should never
be forgotten that there is a wisdom transcending the bare acquaintance
with fact, a wisdom exemplified by our great sages and poets and
above all by the immortal bard of Avon', everybody ignorant of science
will be delighted and will say to himself: 'How true that is.
There may be men who know more than I do the proportion of beryllium
or the habits of the axolotl, but in their pursuit of detail
they have lost sight of the whole, which I have steadily kept
in view.' If you wish to persuade, you should therefore insert
one of these platitudes about every ten pages. This will save you
from the accusation of lack of depth or undue slavery to fact."
Warm regards,
r
1: latecomers will not be allowed in until the current song is finished
2: no cell phones, beepers or photographic devices of any kind
3. no one may leave the hall until the current song is finished
4. the ushers have the right to remove anyone who 'sings along' or otherwise disturbs the audience
5. no children under 6 will be admitted
these are commonly accepted at operas i have gone to in NY city (even some broadway musicals), so why not at Carnatic concerts?
suresh
Meena Shanker
1) Vocalists give thani veri late, like after 21/2 -3hrs. TNS in his concert
at PaloAlto gave Sri. S.Kumar at 7:15 P.M. Exactly when he started, evrybody
started getting up. So Kumar just played for 1min max. Its understood Kumar
is not a famous artist, but certainly he is good. I've listened to him in
India. He is a disciple of legendary Rajappa Iyer.
2) People r always skeptical towards the percussion instrument. They don't
value the importance of mridangam. Its time they should value the instrument
and the artist who is playing...
Any ideas?????
-swami
A few years back, Srimushnam Rajarao, in a Toronto Concert,
shamed the few stragglers who stood up to go out when thani started,
by holding up the playing with the comment 'let everybody who wants to go,
go out and I will play without disturbance for the real rasikas'. Even the
very few who used to 'get up' in Toronto concerts, have stopped doing so.
It is not a problem of any significance in Toronto.
But the point about 'late chance for Thani' is very valid. You cannot expect
people stay put for 3 hrs or more, particularly aged people and that too in
winter season. A 'bio-break' is necessary for these people. What we can
encoyrage them to do, is not to go out 'en-masse' at the start of Thani and
space their quick out and in at the breaks between the songs. This way
it won't be a disturbance to the others and not insulting tp the artistes.
The habit of 'intermission' in Carnatic Music Concerts was introduced by
Dr Balamuralikrishna, precisely for the above reason and it worked fine.
Hyderabad Bros., at least during their North American tours, gave a short
'bio-break' at the end of Thani. I suppose it varies from concert to concert.
Obviously, concerts like TNS's 5+ hrs concert at Cleveland will stretch
(no pun intended) the 'holding' patience of the audience and some unobstrusive
solution has to be found. Local organizers probably can make some sort of
announcement before the start of the concert - in agreement with the artiste.
Anyway, my 2 cents worth !
Venkataraman
Things are indeed getting very specific here. While the first four are not very
contorversial, a rigid enforcement (as opposed to a fuzzy one that is currently
in practice almost everywhere) along the lines of a western musical performance
may ultimately make carnatic music concerts also fairly stiff and a formal affair.
Is this a desirable thing? How long before we have a dress code?
This increasing opposition that is being voiced to behaviours that have been there always is puzzling - is it a consequence of a shift from
collectively and publicly supported concerts to ticket sales supported concerts? Western classical music
has been down this path I think. Critics have for some time said that it has an
'image' problem. I have heard some of my friends, who don't have traditional
exposure to carnatic music, call it (cm) 'elitist'. These are people who are intrinsically
attracted to carnatic music but stay away from it for various reasons.
This brings us to number 5. Much has been said in rmic about children and music.
I think it is worth discussing again because we may want to avoid the problems that
western classical music is reported to have faced - attracting young people to devote sufficient effort and time to learn to appreciate it -
who later go to concerts and
support it.
It is almost criminal to suggest that children under 6 should not be admitted to the concerts. One of the elements involved in music
appreciation has to do with
emotional attachment. This is dependent on exposure in early childhood.
Children as young as three have shown that they can comprehend and
appreciate music very well. I am not talking about exceptions like Sri. Ravikiran.
Why take away yet another opportunity for them to listen when these are already diminishing rapidly?
Cheers
Panch
> Is this a desirable thing? How long before we have a dress code?
Good point. Not a dress code certainly..
> It is almost criminal to suggest that children under 6 should not be admitted to the concerts. One of the elements involved
... cut...
> Why take away yet another opportunity for them to listen when these are already diminishing rapidly?
>
> Cheers
>
> Panch
I am all for children being exposed to carnatic music at a very young age, i just don't believe that the concert hall, with a 3 hour concert in
progress is the appropriate place for kids with attention spans of a few minutes. By all means expose them to carnatic music by waking them up to
sharada suprabhatham or abirami andhaadi - but at home, not at a public concert.
IMHO, opportunity to listen should be shared with others who may wish to listen with no disturbances.
suresh
Exodus during the taani avartanam should be prohibited. Restructuring the concerts with an intermission would certainly help.
Mahesh
sur...@ibm.net wrote:
> after all the sentiments expressed here on this subject, it appears that there is reasonable unanimity, atleast among the rasikas here, that
> disturbing a concert in any form is considered bad manners. can we start a movement to follow principles that are followed at other western
> performances?
>
> 1: latecomers will not be allowed in until the current song is finished
> 2: no cell phones, beepers or photographic devices of any kind
> 3. no one may leave the hall until the current song is finished
> 4. the ushers have the right to remove anyone who 'sings along' or otherwise disturbs the audience
> 5. no children under 6 will be admitted
>
> these are commonly accepted at operas i have gone to in NY city (even some broadway musicals), so why not at Carnatic concerts?
>
> suresh
sur...@ibm.net wrote:
All parents are eager that their children develop varied interests and are
quite ambitious about it and sometimes have unrealistic expectations. In this
country, when children have the choice to pursue any from many kinds of music,
it does not really help forcing one kind on children. One can always introduce
them to classical music in their own homes with recordings. While "exposure"
to everything cultural is good theoretically, it really does not do a whole lot
of good dragging unwilling children to classical concerts in order to achieve
that. Small children essentially have short attention spans, and all that is
accomplished is the disturbance to those who wish to listen in peace. This is
not being elitist or excluding, but practical and socially considerate.
Sometimes even the children of some musicians do not develop an interest,
although they are exposed to singing and recorded music from dawn to dusk.
There may be a few rare exceptions where the children show some natural
interest, but even they cannot sustain it for three hours. People are
expressing these opinions based on observation, not arbitrarily.
As far as why we should try to do things different from what has always "been
there", - lifestyles have changed, concert halls are different, the economics
are different. Concerts in olden days in India used to be in the neighborhood
temples, or open Sabha halls without acoustic sound systems, and where minor
disturbances got dissipated due to the open nature of the halls. People used
to just walk or take a rickshaw in a leisurely manner and the artists were
given voluntary honorariums from whatever was collected. There were no other
significant attendant expenses for the concert. Concerts are now conducted in
closed air-conditioned acoustically designed auditoriums where every sound gets
magnified and therefore extraneous sounds are several times more disturbing.
Nowadays people have a harder time getting to and from concerts, and the few
hours of listening pleasure are all the more precious. Here in the U.S. people
sometimes drive a few hundred miles to attend a concert. Guaranteed
remuneration for the artists, and other related concert expenses are quite
high, therefore there are sponsors who pay generously, and walk-in ticket rates
are also fairly high. Having thus invested, people naturally wish to listen
undisturbed.
Meena Shanker
> sur...@ibm.net wrote:
>>... ... ...
> > 1: latecomers will not be allowed in until the current song is
> > finished
> > 2: no cell phones, beepers or photographic devices of any kind
> > 3. no one may leave the hall until the current song is finished
> > 4. the ushers have the right to remove anyone who 'sings along' or
> > otherwise disturbs the audience
> > 5. no children under 6 will be admitted
> >
> > these are commonly accepted at operas i have gone to in NY city (even
> > some broadway musicals), so why not at Carnatic concerts?
> >
> > suresh
>
>
> may ultimately make carnatic music concerts also fairly stiff and a
> formal affair.
> Is this a desirable thing? How long before we have a dress code?
No, that would not be at all desirable, nor would it at all fit with the
nature of the music.
> This increasing opposition that is being voiced to behaviours that have
> been there always is puzzling - is it a consequence of a shift from
> collectively and publicly supported concerts to ticket sales supported
What we are talking about is essentially good manners. People will always
disagree about 'correct behaviour' in any given circumstance, widespread
*formal* adoption of a code just practically would never happen, but the
word can still be spread.
> it has an
> 'image' problem. I have heard some of my friends, who don't have
Does it? the only image problem I have come across (in the UK) is that
people have never heard of it.
> attracted to carnatic music but stay away from it for various reasons.
I am digressing again, but do they? why?
> This brings us to number 5. Much has been said in rmic about children
> and music.
> I think it is worth discussing again because we may want to avoid the
> problems that
> western classical music is reported to have faced - attracting young
> people to devote sufficient effort and time to learn to appreciate it -
> who later go to concerts and
> support it.
Again, the different problems faced by Western and Indian classical music
would be an interesting thread, one obvious point is that the economics of
an orchestra compared to two or three musicians are totally different.
>
> It is almost criminal to suggest that children under 6 should not be
> admitted to the concerts. One of the elements involved in music
well yes, I have to admit that I am uncomfortable with this one, even
though the child running around at the back of the hall is, for me, one of
the worst distractions. (Sometimes these children have been related to
the musicians!) I know several young music students under the age of 6,
and I would not want to discourage them in any way.
> 2) People r always skeptical towards the percussion instrument. They
> don't
> value the importance of mridangam. Its time they should value the
> instrument
> and the artist who is playing...
>
> Any ideas?????
>
When I used to go to Western Rock concerts nearly thirty years ago there
was the same 'problem'. Any band that included a percussion set made sure
the bar did very good business!
> Some more thoughts on concert etiquette:
> Re: the en masse exodus during "Thani". The Thani cannot be allotted
This is actually much less of a problem here in UK despite my comments
elsewhere on percussion solos): I was surprised when I visited Madras for
the first time last Christmas to find it common behaviour. One of the
reasons suggested was that it was a convenient point to leave to travel to
travel to the next concert.
(I wonder if this very profusion of music in Madras breeds some
familiarity; here in London we have frequent carnatic concerts, but never
ever several on one day)
In the UK we usually have an interval, it is rare for a concert to run
right through without a break. I think that often the musicians would
prefer not to have a break, but they follow the UK custom.
As to *bio-breaks* (now, there's a new name for it!!!)... I'm often
'forced to go' mid concert (unfortunately) but i try very hard not to
leave or enter mid-song.
As for disturbance from children running around, I know that it makes many
artists lose their concentration, especially instrumentalists who have to
mentally keep up the Taalam. If parents can unobtrusively lead the children
out before they become an obvious disturbance, then it is indeed a good idea to
bring them along. But too often, I have noticed that the parents do not even
know where their children are, or what the children are doing! It is a myth
that all children are sitting in their seats and eagerly imbibing this cultural
Manna. Not very often. Most are usually squirming and pestering to leave,
asking: "how much longer?".
Meena Shanker
I have heard that MDR, among others, took a very dim view of people leaving during the
thani or just as the mangalam starts.
gopi
> <snip>
>
> What we are talking about is essentially good manners. People will always
> disagree about 'correct behaviour' in any given circumstance, widespread
> *formal* adoption of a code just practically would never happen, but the
> word can still be spread.
>
Good manners - while some are fairly universal some also have a cultural
slant.
> it has an
> > 'image' problem. I have heard some of my friends, who don't have
>
> Does it? the only image problem I have come across (in the UK) is that
> people have never heard of it.
>
It has been a few years and my memory is vague - an article in
Time (as well as a few TV reports) written when a few orchestras in the
midwest
(US) were in financial trouble (possibly Cleveland or St. Louis) is what I am
basing my impressions upon. The 'image' problem', I think
the report called it so, was the association preceived by the young between
a wcm concert and the well to do. Possibly it was a local phenomenon.
> > attracted to carnatic music but stay away from it for various reasons.
>
> I am digressing again, but do they? why?
>
I am not sure whether you were digressing or I was. Not really worth
discussing. Some of it has to do with the many divisions you find in Indian
society.
> > This brings us to number 5. Much has been said in rmic about children
> > and music.
> > I think it is worth discussing again because we may want to avoid the
> > problems that
> > western classical music is reported to have faced - attracting young
> > people to devote sufficient effort and time to learn to appreciate it -
> > who later go to concerts and
> > support it.
>
> Again, the different problems faced by Western and Indian classical music
> would be an interesting thread, one obvious point is that the economics of
> an orchestra compared to two or three musicians are totally different.
>
My concern was more about the relative lengths of time it takes for a young
person to become comfortable with the music. Classical systems - western
or eastern - take longer due to their very nature.
> >
> > It is almost criminal to suggest that children under 6 should not be
> > admitted to the concerts. One of the elements involved in music
>
> well yes, I have to admit that I am uncomfortable with this one, even
> though the child running around at the back of the hall is, for me, one of
> the worst distractions. (Sometimes these children have been related to
> the musicians!) I know several young music students under the age of 6,
> and I would not want to discourage them in any way.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> N i c k
>
> Nick Haynes.
It somehow seemed fairer to ask the adults to raise their level of
concentration
rather than inhibit the children. I can almost see 'children under 6 not
admitted' in small prints in concert tickets. It is a lost cause.
Cheers
Panch
> <snip>
>
> I am all for children being exposed to carnatic music at a very young age, i just don't believe that the concert hall, with a 3 hour concert in
> progress is the appropriate place for kids with attention spans of a few minutes. By all means expose them to carnatic music by waking them up to
> sharada suprabhatham or abirami andhaadi - but at home, not at a public concert.
>
> IMHO, opportunity to listen should be shared with others who may wish to listen with no disturbances.
>
> suresh
Most parents who want to bring their children to these concerts do all these and more.
That they do what they can do individually is taken for granted. It is just that they
think it makes a difference to bring the children to these concerts. Do others find some
validity in this claim to want to accomodate them?
Talking about attention spans somehow doesn't appeal to me. I don't think children,
especially the very young, learn like adults do. My guess is that much of what happens
is subconscious.
Cheers
Panch
1.The seating is on the floor. This is criminal. Having lived away from
India for so long, I am correct in saying that most American listeners have
lost the flexibility to sit on the floor for long hours. Since you compare
with the manners of western audience, ask yourself- which western music
concert urges people to sit on the floor for 3 hours? Get real!
2. The introductions are often pitiful. They are long and are not designed
to entertain people. Most often, they are renditions of the artistes'
resumes! Again, the concert presentation is designed to pump up the singer
and not to get the listener 'more' interested.
3. They are no interludes, breaks in this 3 hour concert. Give me a
bloody break. There is not a thing in the world that you can do for 3 hours
without a break!
4. The artists know only to sing! Most of them do not recognize that the
object of the evening is 'entertainment'. They could talk a little bit
about the song that they are going to sing and 'sell' it in an entertaining
way. Hell NO! Half of them don't even announce the ragam etc.,
5. As far as when to take a break -- there is no better time than the
'thani' segment.
Here is my two cents-
Hey organizers- Improve the seating, Improve the presentation, Improve
the introductions, Introduce one or two breaks. - and if people get up
to stretch.. find out why and help!
The organizers would do well do heed all of your other points, and the artists
should also give small introductions to the songs for the benefit of those who
don't have a musical background. This makes listening all the more
interesting. If the artists do not know English, someone else can help them
announce these in English. Introductions of the artists should be brief.
After all, the concert notices have their bio-data already. Vote of thanks
should also be brief. (As my son jokes): In our events there is always: a
vote of thanks, a vote of thanks for the person who gave the vote of thanks,
another vote of thanks for the person who gave that, and so on - you get the
picture. In the vote of thanks one need not name everybody who has contributed
to the event, because this invariably is asking for trouble - apart from the
time factor, some one is bound to be forgotten and left out and feel insulted.
There is also no need for this continual patting on the back by each of the
members of the organizing committee, thus stretching the event well after a
concert (of three hours +). Each person wants to establish their own
importance. It is boring, pompous and pretentious. It is only in Indian
events that I have seen this (and I have lived here 30+ years).
Meena Shanker
> There is a big thread going on bad manners of Carnatic music listeners.
> I
> have a few words to say to the organizers of these concerts.
>
> 1.The seating is on the floor. This is criminal. Having lived away
> from
> India for so long, I am correct in saying that most American listeners
> have
> lost the flexibility to sit on the floor for long hours.
>... ...
in UK concerts are usually held in concert halls/theatres and include
normal seating. concerts in temples are sit-on-the-floor jobs, but are
often much shorter, maybe only 1 and 1/2 hours or so.
> 2. The introductions are often pitiful. They are long and are not
> designed
> to entertain people. Most often, they are renditions of the artistes'
> resumes!
> ... ...
I don't mind hearing about the artists, there is seldom a printed program
with such details. However, when the entire affair is conducted in Tamil
I don't understand. My Tamil friends tell me that is no disadvantage! We
have a few people here that seem to think that as much time as possible
should be taken up by them talking rather than the musicians playing.
Sometimes it is obvious that the musicians resent this. Occasionally one
of the musicians joins in!
> 3. They are no interludes, breaks in this 3 hour concert. Give me a
> bloody break.
> ... ...
UK concerts nearly always include a break. only occasionally not.
> 4. The artists know only to sing! Most of them do not recognize that
> the
> object of the evening is 'entertainment'. They could talk a little bit
> about the song that they are going to sing and 'sell' it in an
> entertaining
> way. Hell NO! Half of them don't even announce the ragam etc.,
I like it when the musician makes announcements, but I don't mind when
they don't. Even though I learn mridangam, I'm afraid that I often do not
catch or remember the song titles and ragas. My background/race is
non-indian, and I have to have names etc said several times and pronounced
slowly to get into my brain ('Typical Englishman'!!!)
But, ultimately, we are there to hear them sing/play, any explanation is a
bonus.
> 5. As far as when to take a break -- there is no better time than the
> 'thani' segment.
>
Why, do you dislike it? If so, I guess there's no reason why you should
be forced to listen to it!
> Vote of thanks
> should also be brief. (As my son jokes): In our events there is
> always: a
> vote of thanks, a vote of thanks for the person who gave the vote of
> thanks,
> another vote of thanks for the person who gave that, and so on - you
> get the
> picture.
>
Now this would be an appropriate time for everyone to take a break!
Or leave, even. But the speakers are no fools, and of course they always
jump in before the final tillana etc to ensure a captive audience.
In UK there are...
Indian events in 'Western' concert halls attracting a very mixed
audience: usually small introduction, no speeches.
Events organised by Temples or Refugee organisations: lots of
introduction, lots of speeches, nearly always in Tamil (audience
99.9 % Tamil)
Concerts organised by, eg Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan or Nehru Centre
where there will be short speeches and vote of thanks. Sometimes
some eminent scholar such as John Marr will speak a few words
about each piece. This is very informative and interesting.
Arangetrams: of course this is just as much (in UK) a social
event as a musical one, so no complaints about numerous speeches.
If we don't like it, we don't have to accept the invitation.
> In the vote of thanks one need not name everybody who has
> contributed
> to the event, because this invariably is asking for trouble - apart
> from the
> time factor, some one is bound to be forgotten and left out and feel
> insulted. There is also no need for this continual patting on the back
> by each of the
> members of the organizing committee, thus stretching the event well
"...and the man who put the tea in the pot and the man who put the water
in the pot..."
This weekend I have the honour to be giving intro etc for a friend's
arangetram. Is this my oportunity for revenge?!?!? [No, of course I will
behave properly].
> after a
> concert (of three hours +). Each person wants to establish their own
> importance. It is boring, pompous and pretentious. It is only in
> Indian
> events that I have seen this (and I have lived here 30+ years).
likewise
Usually at the end of a concert the audience conveys through their applause how
much they enjoyed the concert. Then one of the officers wanders to the podium
and gushingly goes over the whole concert literally holding the audience
hostage. After being transported to another realm, we are brought back to
earth very rudely. I feel brevity is of the essence in such situations.
Prema V
: While "exposure"
: to everything cultural is good theoretically, it really does not do a whole lot
: of good dragging unwilling children to classical concerts in order to achieve
: that. Small children essentially have short attention spans, and all that is
: accomplished is the disturbance to those who wish to listen in peace. This is
: not being elitist or excluding, but practical and socially considerate.
I agree that disruptive children should not be brought to concert. Some children
are very well behaved and quiet, however, my daughter has attended classical
concerts since age 5-6 and has never made a peep.
: Concerts in olden days in India used to be in the neighborhood
: temples, or open Sabha halls without acoustic sound systems, and where minor
: disturbances got dissipated due to the open nature of the halls.
: Concerts are now conducted in
: closed air-conditioned acoustically designed auditoriums where every sound gets
: magnified and therefore extraneous sounds are several times more disturbing.
Actually, quite the reverse is true for ICM, and I wish it were true for WCM.
ICM has embraced electronic amplification, whereas WCM shuns it. As such,
ICM concerts can provide a signal/noise ratio for the audience that is comparable
to a private home concert. WCM, particularly classical guitar, shun amplfication,
and as such the audience must strain to hear the music, and *any* noise in the
audience can completely drown out the music. I greatly prefer the use
of *good* amplification in concerts. An added benefit is stringed instruments
such as sitar & sarod with sympathetic vibration strings are much more resonant
with higher sound levels, the sympathetic strings kick in very strongly with
on stage monitor speakers.
Keith Erskine
I don't speak for HP, much to their relief.
Cleveland, OHIO, late 1980s. tyAgarAja ArAdhanA. ramaNi's flute concert has
wound down. wonderful music it was. 2-3 tukkuDA pieces left, and ...
"<LOUD COUGHING INTO MIKE> <harrummph> <gulp> i now requusht sri
sethumAdhavaraghunanandanaselvapillay to kindly say few words."
sri sethumAdhavaraghunanandanaselvapillay, having completely ignored the absence of
"a" in front of the word "few", and the difference it makes, slowly ambles up to
the mike. hush. the Elderly, therefore Revered, Gentilman is about to Speak.
ramaNi is generally looking around with a "yeah, whatever" expression on his face.
mrdangist is ready to fall asleep. violinist is, er, fiddling about. tambUrA person
cracking knuckles. other on-stange hangers-about are hanging about.
"<LOUD harrumphphing into mike> <sound of phlegm violently wending its way down the
ol' pipes> friendshu, it giwes me great plushshur to speak to you this ewan-ing
... indian culture is the moooshtu yAAAAnshiuntu culture ... "
and soon he begins with the ORIGINS OF MUSIC!!
"nAda brummam himself incarnated as tyAgarAja to bless this vuruld, ... entarO
magAnubAvulu, he says ..."
a good 15 or so minutes later, i suddenly wake up hearing:
"... please yukscuze me, i have to go now, i am in dharmasankadam poyizhun "
(poyizhun = position), and he skiddaddles in mid-sentence. everyone is waiting for
his return.
ramaNi was the first one to give up. he picked up the murali and started playing
again. the rasa-bangam was difficult to overcome.
i turned to my buddy, Mahidhar, next to me and said, "what happened?"
he told me.
the Elderly Gentilman's dhoti had come undone and he had to take the powder.
how is one to enjoy music with all this kind of circus? so, when i left, it was
less ramaNi's concert and more the undone dhoti that regaled me. what's with us
indians and these damn VOTE OF THANKS with "multifarious engagements", and "last
but not least" things? give it up already!
chandra, an irate fan!
ThePatrika wrote:
--
Chandra Shekhar Balachandran
Assistant Professor, Geography
Bridgewater State College
Bridgewater, MA 02325
U.S.A.
Tel.: 508-697-2120
Meena Shanker
> a good 15 or so minutes later, i suddenly wake up hearing:
> the Elderly Gentilman's dhoti had come undone and he had to take the powder.
And someone had to *tell* you? I think I'll have to subtract 9 points.
I see you've managed to escape North Dakota.
--
Mina Kumar
http://www.concentric.net/~Minak
>Actually, quite the reverse is true for ICM, and I wish it were true for WCM.
>ICM has embraced electronic amplification, whereas WCM shuns it. As such,
>ICM concerts can provide a signal/noise ratio for the audience that is comparable
>to a private home concert. WCM, particularly classical guitar, shun amplfication,
>and as such the audience must strain to hear the music, and *any* noise in the
>audience can completely drown out the music. I greatly prefer the use
>of *good* amplification in concerts. An added benefit is stringed instruments
>such as sitar & sarod with sympathetic vibration strings are much more resonant
>with higher sound levels, the sympathetic strings kick in very strongly with
>on stage monitor speakers.
As an aside, does anybody have any idea when, and by whom, amplification
was first used in Indian concerts?
John Napier
V. Ramnarayan
NOT long ago, the Indian cricket selectors had the unenviable task of
announcing two teams for simultaneous participation in tournaments in two
different parts of the world. Both the Sahara Cup at Toronto and the
Commonwealth Games at Kuala Lumpur demanded India's best team, a knotty problem
that the selectors tried to untangle by fielding what they called two equally
formidable sides - in the event, both came a-cropper.
The cricket selectors would have done well to consult that uniquely South
Indian body of men, the ubiquitous sabha secretaries. These miracle makers
manage year after year to conduct hundreds of Carnatic music concerts packed
into a fortnight of frenzied programming, featuring equally formidable teams,
at not two venues but dozens of far flung theatres of war. Yes, these are the
modern versions of the Carnatic war fought not by the British and the French,
but by these little cultural oligarchies. In a marvel of logistics, time and
resource management, they detonate an explosion of rhythm and raga razzmatazz
that leaves whole suburban populations stunned. Their weaponry? Antiquated
amplification systems whose noise levels create world records on the Richter
scale.
The early morning lec-dems investigate in minute detail such compellingly
seminal topics as "The Influence of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche on the
Development of the Mela Karta Scheme" or "Rap, Raga and Rachmaninov: Are They
Y2K Compliant?" That is where demure damsels, fiery feminists, voluble
vocalists, and intimidatory instrumentalists vie for top honours with
obstreperous octogenarians and superannuated scholars.
These are followed by the virgin volleys of child prodigies and teenage tyros,
unleashed at an unsuspecting public straying idly in after a hearty repast at
the cafeteria. (The last IMRB survey reportedly revealed that, for every
serious or critically ill concertgoer, there were at least three committed
canteengoers. Their unfaltering support has over the decades raised what
started as a modest sideshow into a spectacular main attraction during the
music season. In fact, in some circles it has been suggested that the Chennai
December season should be renamed the Food n' Frolic Fest.
<Picture>
Some of these postprandial somnambulists settle down into deep slumber even as
the next batch of curious onlookers fights its way towards the rare empty seat.
By now they are hampered by the growing crowd, and overzealous ushers who
learnt their job by correspondence and never got beyond lesson two, to borrow a
simile from "English literature's performing flea", P.G. wode house. This is
the high point of the unfolding drama - the last chance before the next season
comes round to pass judgment on the stars of tomorrow without paying for
admission. To borrow yet another intriguing piece of imagery by yet another
eminent Englishman, Bertrand Russell, a Martian visitor who happens to land his
flying saucer at the Music Academy one December afternoon, will go away with
the impression that earthlings who have strayed from the path of virtue are
packed into uncomfortable seats and tortured by sophisticated acoustics; those
guilty of the more heinous crimes are banished to the balcony.
Suitably stirred by the vigour of the vocal gymnastics on display during the
next two hours, these devout worshippers of the divine music of our ancestors,
spring into action even as the last strains of the mangalam begin to fill the
auditorium. To make a quick dash for the door, and head straight for the
canteen is for them as effortless as drowning the vocalist's feeble attempts at
being heard is for violinists and percussionists. After reviving themselves
with a stiff coffee or two, they then cleverly take a detour around the ticket
window towards the exit, to rest and recuperate before they hit the roads on
the morrow. For this is the hour that produces the man - the supreme optimist
at the ticket counter who hopes against hope, that this season's share of the
uninitiated will pay to listen to the senior vidwan featured here, and not
gravitate towards a free cutcheri elsewhere.
What infinite variety this indefatigable band of music lovers present! An
endangered species is the doughty old warriors whose first season coincided
with the debut of Ariyakudi Ramanuja Ayyangar, the trailblazer whom critics
have charged with inventing the modern cutcheri format. These are the most
admirable segment of the audience, for they have braved the rigours of
classical music in the severe Chennai winter for over half a century,
sweater-and muffler-clad, and remaining stolidly critical of succeeding
generations of vidwans. Anno Domini is catching up and alas, this species will
soon be extinct, replaced entirely by more thick skinned listeners whom the
December cold leaves untouched.
<Picture>
Mylapore mamis too are fast becoming a vanishing feature of the season. The
swirling silks and glittering diamonds that were an integral part of the scene
earlier are becoming less conspicuous every year. One school of thought however
has it that the mamis still continue to throng the sabhas, only they are
disguised as lesser mortals. This deduction is based on a recent research
finding that the number of patrons in the front rows who talk through concerts
has actually increased in the last decade. (A similar finding is that the
number of men who sing along is also on the upswing, with a significant growth
in percentage of apaswaram. At last count too, an incredible 22 per cent of the
audience were found guilty of wrong tala accompaniment during tani avartanam).
To earn the applause of a Chennai audience is not easy unless you happen to be
a Hindustani instrumentalist with long hair, purple kurta and an American
accent with which you announce that you will treat them to the exotic delight
of raag Hamsadhwani. The Carnatic musician may occasionally mesmerise audiences
abroad. But his manodharma is scarcely equal to the irresistible lure of the
8.35 bus home. Every percussionist from Palghat Mani Iyer down to Vikku
Vinayakram has lost out to the fatal attraction of the aroma of coffee wafting
in from the canteen at tani avartanam time.
Increasingly, devotees from the wicked West descend on staid old Chennai during
the December season. Some of them look more Indian than Indians, veshti-jibba,
sari-pigtails, jolna bags and all, but what really distinguishes these seekers
of nirvana through raga and gamaka is their glazed expression. And they, like
their Indian counterparts, keep coming back for more, such is the addictive
power of the season for all seasons.
Ram Sriram