Questions about Ragas Durga, Mand, and Asa.
S44218
I don't know if these ragas have been discussed on the group at some point in
the past... If so, if there is an archive that contains a copy of the
discussion, info would be appreciated. If not, is there somwhere where I can
read about the distnictions between Ragas Durga, Mand, and Asa. The last one I
have seen frequently in the Guru Granth Sahib, but haven't been able to find
a listing of the raga structure for it. Any help would be great...
Thanks in advance,
Sandip.
sanj...@my-dejanews.com
s44...@aol.com (S44218) wrote:
> Hi....
>
> I don't know if these ragas have been discussed on the group at some point in
> the past... If so, if there is an archive that contains a copy of the
> discussion, info would be appreciated. If not, is there somwhere where I can
> read about the distnictions between Ragas Durga, Mand, and Asa. The last one I
> have seen frequently in the Guru Granth Sahib, but haven't been able to find
I could be totally be off base, but I thought Asa was just short for Asavari.
I've heard of ragas Asa Bhairav and I've heard Pt. Jasraj sing a Raga Asa
Mand. The latter seems to be all shuddh swaras, S R M P D S", S N D P M G R
S.
Durga is an odava-odava raga - I don't think Mand and Asa are. (There would be
more detailed differences besides this, that more knowledgeable folks can fill
in). Mand (plain) I believe takes all seven notes - RMIC-ers, is "Kesariya
Balam Padhaaro Mharo Des" an example of Mand?
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
jawa...@hotmail.com
sanj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Mand (plain) I believe takes all seven notes - RMIC-ers, is "Kesariya
> Balam Padhaaro Mharo Des" an example of Mand?
>
>
Yes.
Abhinav
Rajan P. Parrikar
sanj...@my-dejanews.com (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>I could be totally be off base, but I thought Asa was just short for Asavari.
No, Raga Asa (AsA) is just an interpretation or a variation
of Raga Mand (mAnDa).
>I've heard of ragas Asa Bhairav
Ravi Shankar has recorded it. One hearing should be enough to
establish that there is no Asavari anywhere within driving distance.
Some other folks play a similar melody under Mand Bhairav.
>and I've heard Pt. Jasraj sing a Raga Asa
>Mand. The latter seems to be all shuddh swaras, S R M P D S", S N D P M G R
>S.
But consistency in nomenclature is not to be in the
Hindustani universe. Occasionally, a hybrid rAga employing
Asavari is shortened as Asa-*, for instance, Asa Gouri etc.
>Durga is an odava-odava raga - I don't think Mand and Asa are.
That's correct, both Mand and Asa employ gandhAr and
nishAd, although there are flourishes that remind one of
some Durga phrases. Other allied rAgas are Pratapavarali,
Arabhi etc.
Regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>
>Quick question for Mr. R:
>
>Traditionally, I would hesitate to call Maand a
>raga.
Dear A,
It is not a serious rAga, and may be classified
under the kshudra types (refer to the discussion
here on kshudra rAgas some months ago).
> I would think some melodic passages
>have been borrowed from Rajasthani Folk
>music by Mr. AAK in his days in Jodhpur and
>called a raga.
Mand/Asa is much older than AAK. References to
Asa are found in the Guru Granth Sahib. Vishnu
Digambar and others in Maharashtra have made
extensive use of the melody and planted it in
the music of the region. Note the very popular
shabad of Guru Nanak tuned in Mand by Vishnu
Digambar (and recorded by his son DVP) - thAkur
tum sharaNAyi AyA (Isn't the same tune
rendered by MS Subbalakshmi?). A very popular
nATyageet set in Mand is 'naravara Krishna...'
> From what I have heard many
>performers play (AAK, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt,
>Brij Bhusan Kabra, Debasis Bhattacharyya,
>Vasant Rai, and Timir Baran), there is no
>consistency whatsoever within that gharana
>itself while playing maand. Any comments?
Since the the melody has strong affiliations to
folk music musicians often take license in its
development. Nevertheless there are some
definitive tonal sentences with which Mand
is associated. For instance, (M=shuddha)
S R M, P, DNPD S" or
P D S" N D, DN PD MP G
and so on. The notation does scant justice
to the character of Mand and the peculiar
punctuation that goes with it. One has to grow
up with these passages.
Oftentimes Mand is combined with another folk
melody Pahadi. AAK also plays a hybrid which
he calls Bhoop-Mand.
Warm regards,
r
sarod...@my-dejanews.com
Traditionally, I would hesitate to call Maand a
raga. I would think some melodic passages
have been borrowed from Rajasthani Folk
music by Mr. AAK in his days in Jodhpur and
called a raga. From what I have heard many
performers play (AAK, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt,
Brij Bhusan Kabra, Debasis Bhattacharyya,
Vasant Rai, and Timir Baran), there is no
consistency whatsoever within that gharana
itself while playing maand. Any comments?
A
achakr...@hampshire.edu
> >
> >Traditionally, I would hesitate to call Maand a
> >raga.
>
> under the kshudra types (refer to the discussion
> here on kshudra rAgas some months ago).
I have not read RMIC in a long time, and therefore
can't recall that discussion. However, I am very
happy to get such a quick set of answers for you and
really appreciate them.
> Mand/Asa is much older than AAK. References to
> Asa are found in the Guru Granth Sahib. Vishnu
> Digambar and others in Maharashtra have made
> extensive use of the melody and planted it in
> the music of the region. Note the very popular
> shabad of Guru Nanak tuned in Mand by Vishnu
> Digambar (and recorded by his son DVP) - thAkur
> tum sharaNAyi AyA (Isn't the same tune
> rendered by MS Subbalakshmi?). A very popular
> nATyageet set in Mand is 'naravara Krishna...'
I do remember DVP singing that, right (it is on an
old 45 disc somewhere with my family). Asa, I can
say safely, has been played by my dada-guru Pandit
Radhika Mohan Maitra, but his structure of that raga
was quite different, and was more or less on the
lines of being a hybrid of Durga, Khamaj and Jhinjoti.
Also, at some point, I had heard Behre Buwa sing the
NATyageet you mention (in Kolhapur).
S R M, P, D(n) (D)S'
R' G' P' M', S'(G')R', G' S', D(n)DP, GMP(ghaseet), M GS.
This was primarily why I asked these questions. All I
can say is that AIR Bombay has his recording of that raga
in drut tintala with Manikrao Popatkar on tabla.
Going back to the question on Asa/Maand, is it just that
some people call it by one name and some others by another?
> Since the the melody has strong affiliations to
> folk music musicians often take license in its
> development. Nevertheless there are some
> definitive tonal sentences with which Mand
> is associated. For instance, (M=shuddha)
>
> S R M, P, DNPD S" or
> P D S" N D, DN PD MP G
>
> and so on. The notation does scant justice
> to the character of Mand and the peculiar
> punctuation that goes with it. One has to grow
> up with these passages.
Very true. I am not partucularly fond of "Mand"
on sarod and sitar except for one recording of
AAK and Nikhil Banerjee playing together. A lot
of new recordings feature this raga, but none of
them have really touched me.
> Oftentimes Mand is combined with another folk
> melody Pahadi. AAK also plays a hybrid which
> he calls Bhoop-Mand.
I figure Radhu-babu's Asa would be somewhere between
AAK's Jhinjhot Maand and Khamaj.
Thank you very much.
regards,
S44218
who asked the question in the first place.
Is there a listing of the raga structres in the Guru Granth Sahib, by any
chance ? I am interested because as I have been researching out forms of
devotional music in the bhakti period, I have always been curious as to why a
core set of ragas keep turning up in collections like Vinay Patrika, Sursagar,
or the Guru Granth Sahib.
Did that mean that particular ragas were considered appropriate for singing
padas while others were not ?
It is the sense that I have been getting from reading about the musical theory
behind Haveli Sangit (not the dreadful "pseudo" Haveli sangit of Jasraj )
Singers of Haveli Sangit and other Vaishnavite devotional music in Braj state
that bhava can only be brought out by singing what they would consider to be
the most "basic" and therfeore "pure" ragas (Yaman, Sarang, Malhar, Kalyan,
Dhanashri, Vibhas, Bhairav, Bihag etc... ). Would that explain why only certain
ragas would pop up in devotional collections over others ? Usha Gupta's study
in Hindi of existing ragas (that she could find in music manuscripts) from the
Bhakti period seems to suggest so. But then, I am learning the ropes and not by
any means any sort of experienced musicologist.
Anyway... thanks again for the responses so far on Durga, Mand, and Asa.
Yours,
Sandip
Rajan P. Parrikar
>
>I should also add my thanks as well for all the responses since I am the one
>who asked the question in the first place.
>
>Is there a listing of the raga structres in the Guru Granth Sahib, by any
>chance ? I am interested because as I have been researching out forms of
>devotional music in the bhakti period, I have always been curious as to why a
>core set of ragas keep turning up in collections like Vinay Patrika, Sursagar,
>or the Guru Granth Sahib.
The shabads in the Granth Sahib are in prescribed rAgas and tAlas
along with their descriptions. There have been posts before on this
group on these matters but perhaps a fresh round is called for. The
fella to talk to would be Dr. Gurbux Singh Bagga (also known as
Guri) of Denver. You will get the thing in real time from Gurmukhi
(without having to rely on second hand accounts by ethno-pimps).
The mad doctor can be reached at bu...@ix.netcom.com and with
some luck we may be able to persuade him to post the material.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>I do remember DVP singing that, right (it is on an
>old 45 disc somewhere with my family). Asa, I can
>say safely, has been played by my dada-guru Pandit
>Radhika Mohan Maitra, but his structure of that raga
>was quite different, and was more or less on the
>lines of being a hybrid of Durga, Khamaj and Jhinjoti.
>Also, at some point, I had heard Behre Buwa sing the
>NATyageet you mention (in Kolhapur).
I will look up Bhatkhande and let you know if he
has anything substantially different to say on Asa/Mand.
r