Question about Begum Akhtar and something related.
S44218
Hi...
Its Sandip here. I had a question about Begum Akhtar. In the number of
recordings I have, it seems the music for her ghazals were composed either by
Khayyam or someone named Murli Manohar Swarup. I know of Khayyam because of his
compositions for films, but who is Murli Manohar Swarup. I know he has done
music for, among others, Manna Dey and Hari Om Sharan. But, I never expected
someone to write music for someone like Begum Akhtar. If anyone has any info.
on him, that would be appreciated.
I guess it does -- at least for me-- bring up the question o why do our
classical artists use other people to sometimes compose music for them ?
Bhimsen Joshi is the one who comes to mind in terms of his collaborations with
Srinivas Khale and Ram Phatak (whoever these two ma be). When it says that
someone does the "music" for our classical artists on liner notes, what does
that mean ? These people do the music arrangement ? Or, is it that these people
set the lyrics to music and then have the artists sing this ? It just strikes
me that our artists wouldn't need musical arrangers or compoers to help them in
the singing of of music. Our aratists are alreeady (or should be) competent to
do it themselves.
Just a couple of questions.... Thanks for your attention.
Yours,
Sandip.
jawa...@hotmail.com
s44...@aol.com (S44218) wrote:
> I guess it does -- at least for me-- bring up the question o why do our
> classical artists use other people to sometimes compose music for them ?
> Bhimsen Joshi is the one who comes to mind in terms of his collaborations with
> Srinivas Khale and Ram Phatak (whoever these two ma be).
These two music directors (Ram Phatak and Shriniwas Khale) that you
have talked about here are very well known and highly reputed in
the world of Marathi light music. Bhimsen Joshi has worked with these
people only in the area of light music. Light music is quite a different
world with its own complexities.
If you have listened to the absolute disastrous effects of Kishori
Amonkar's experiments with light music, you will immediately realize
the logic (and sensibility) behind Bhimsen Joshi's colaborations.
BTW, Shriniwas Khale, though has been one of the top music
directors of Marathi light music, has an excellent background
in Hindusthani Classical music. In fact he is a student of
Late Ud. Fayyaz Khan.
Hope this helps.
Abhinav Jawadekar
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S44218
Abhinav,
Thank you for the prompt reply to my post... It was indeed most helpful. It
does, however, leave me wanting you to elaborate upon the compleixities of
light music and why our artists therefore want the aid of arrangers and
composers.
Your point about light music puzzeled me because having heard artists like
Kishori or Bhimsen and others doing light music (primarly bhajans), it makes me
wonder why these artists realy need them. Some of the compositions they sing
(bhajans, abhangs, etc...) seem to be traditional melodies and are not
necessairly the melodies of a modern day music director. In these cases, the
arrangement tends to be rather simple (manjira, harmonium, two tablas,
harmonium, a violin, and maybe a pakhavaj). That is something that does not
need much complex musical arrangement as would be the case with a larger
orchestra with sitars, flutes, etc..
In the cases, however, that artists sing poetry which are the original musical
compositions by people like Khale or Pathak, I am still not sure why they
would rely on a composer. The recent recordings of Khale's music for Shobha
Gurtu, Bhimsen, and Balmurali Krishna have really show a noticeable decline and
one would think that artists like Bhimsen could do better than that by
composing their own compositions.
Actually, in the case of Bhimsen, he has done two recordings where he is
listed as musical director. One was a cassette of bhajans sung by Haimanti
Shukla with arrangement by Anil Mohile. The other one was his recording of
Kannada devotionals for HMV which didn't use much elaborate musical arrangments
at all.
The compositions in both cases were either traditioanl melodies or compositions
which were not all that different from what a Khale could have produced or any
other music director well-versed in classical music
In other words, our artists have the ability to compose music themselves, so
why constantly rely on other composers to write their music for them ? I can
understand the reliance on a music arranger to make the music accessible, but
the constant reliance of artists on music directors to write their music for
bhajans or whatever seems puzzling to me.
I am not saying that our artists should not sing the music composed by others.
I have nothing against that at all and am pleased that happens, but if our
artists can sing khayal and tarana, they surely can handle whatever are the
demands of light music.
A few parting shots...As for Kishori, about all I can say is that she has no
sense for music arrangement at all, but has can at least is a decent composer
for her bhajans But her results have been extremely mixed as has been the case
with Jasraj whose musical experiments are nothing short of painful.. Honestly,
the only artist that i have heard who has a good sense for both music and
musical arrangement has been Rajan Misra, the elder of the two Misra brothers
of Benares. He has a good sense for setting text to an appropriate raga and
just using fairly simple music arrangements which don't tend to be distracting
from the delivery of a given text.
As for Begum Akhtar, I can understand why she would use another person to help
her with her ghazal renditions. I by no means deny her incredible talent as a
thumri and ghazal singer, but she has always struck me as one who could not
deal with composition and especially arrangement. I just was curious how she
wound up with a music director who did bhajans for Hari Om Sharan and Manna
Dey.
Anyway..... thanks for the response. Sorry for rambling on like this... Been
translating Sanskrit all afternoon.
Yours,
Sandip.
Bhash
I want to add another aspect of light music and Pt. Bhimsen Joshi.
BJ has composed music of Marathi dance-drama "Shankara Parvati" around
1970. All the compositions were wonderfully done and were really light and
fast paced. Some that I remember very well are:
1. AThava yeto maja tAtA.nchA mama mAyechyA mrudu hAtA.nchA
2. ughaDi nayana sha>nkarA vasanta ye vanA.ntari
3. geliisa soDuni kA dakshAyaNi shivA.ngi amaratva shApa Ahe...
Male voice used in this drama was Sudhir Phadake.
Of course BJ himself has sung under other music directors in Hindi and
Marathi films. His songs under Jaideva in Hindi film "Ankahi" are
fantastic. His "song" I.ndrAyaNi kAThi devAchi ALa.ndi.. written and
directed by PL Deshpande is really a masterpiece.
His own abhang-wANi has wonderful light classical compositions.
My point is artists should not say no to taking directions from other music
directors. This gives us the listners best of both the worlds.
cheers,
Subhash
Vivek R. Datar
>Male voice used in this drama was Sudhir Phadake.
>Of course BJ himself has sung under other music directors in Hindi and
>Marathi films. His songs under Jaideva in Hindi film "Ankahi" are
>fantastic. His "song" I.ndrAyaNi kAThi devAchi ALa.ndi.. written and
>directed by PL Deshpande is really a masterpiece.
This was written by Madgulkar (GaDiMa).
Also, regarding some points raised by Sandip, I feel that
composing and singing (in terms of light music) are two
different forms of art. A good classical performer is also
a good classical composer, in a sense that in ICM we really
create as we perform. However composing light music is a different
beast. You need to understand the poetry, understand the time
limit, possibly understand the limitations and stenghts of
the performer you have in mind and then tune it accordingly.
Many music directors can create nice tunes, nice in an
classical-music-sense; but they probably cannot perform for
three hours, neither can they create a bandish.
Examples?
Bhimsen and Ram Phatak/Khale/P.L. Deshpande. Hridaynath
Mangeshkar as a composer and many many singers, Ram Kadam
as composer and Sudhir Phadke as singer, P.L. Deshpande
as composer and Vasantrao Deshpande as singer.
If you get chance, listen to Snehal Bhatkar's abhanga, very
beautiful compositions, but they will be great if somebody
else sings them.
Regards
-Vivek
Ashok
>
>
>If you have listened to the absolute disastrous effects of Kishori
>Amonkar's experiments with light music, you will immediately realize
>the logic (and sensibility) behind Bhimsen Joshi's colaborations.
>
Kishori Amonkar's compositions for Govind Nihalin's film 'Drishti'
are very good. One of them ("saavaniaa sanjhaa me.n"), sung by
Raghunandan Panshikar, to alaap in the background by Kishori herself,
is a seimi-classical masterpiece. She is the music director designate
for the film.
Ashok
S44218
Hi....
Its Sandip again... Thank you for all the responses. I just wanted to say that
I agree with Ashok about Kishori's music direction for Drishti. It really has
been her only good foray into light music even if one has to tolerate the
rather irritating voice of Raghunandan Panshikar.
Yours,
Shandip.
Abhay P
>
>(snipped bits about KA, BJ, Jasraj, etc.)
>
>As for Begum Akhtar, I can understand why she would use another person to help
>her with her ghazal renditions. I by no means deny her incredible talent as a
>thumri and ghazal singer, but she has always struck me as one who could not
>deal with composition and especially arrangement. I just was curious how she
>wound up with a music director who did bhajans for Hari Om Sharan and Manna
>Dey.
I am curious to know how you concluded that Begum Akhtar "could not deal with
composition and especially arrangement". Her ghazals normally did not need any
musical arrangement as she rarely used anything more than the basic
tabla-saarangi-harmonium (the last she played herself).
An "orchestra" is present only in the ghazals tuned by others. Her ghazals with
Murli Manohar come nowhere near her own compositions; her ghazals with Khayyam,
though much better, are still not her best.
Her best renditions can be heard in her AIR recordings and in the few live
recordings that are commercially available. Listen to them, and then comment on
her "composition" skills!
Warm regards,
Abhay
sramab...@pcc.lucent.com
vda...@cisco.com (Vivek R. Datar) wrote:
> Many music directors can create nice tunes, nice in an
> classical-music-sense; but they probably cannot perform for
> three hours, neither can they create a bandish.
>
> Examples?
>
> Bhimsen and Ram Phatak/Khale/P.L. Deshpande. Hridaynath
> Mangeshkar as a composer and many many singers, Ram Kadam
> as composer and Sudhir Phadke as singer, P.L. Deshpande
> as composer and Vasantrao Deshpande as singer.
>
Ram Phatak is not a good example for this assertion - he was also a trained
performing classical vocalist, though his major claim to fame is surely is as
a music director. He has composed (and continues to compose) many wonderful
original bandishes (which he has taught me) that have been broadcast by major
artists over All India Radio. I know his background because I am his student
(I believe quite a few of the others including Shri Khale have had solid
grounding in classical music, though I don't know details about their
background).
Sanjeev
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
S44218
Abhinav,
I would be interested in hearing a more about these recording of Begum Akhtar
which you say are done without the help of a music arranger or composer. What I
have heard are primarly the HMV recordings of her that are commercially
available and were done in studios. Those are the ones which I have been
primarly exposed to and, incidentally, have not warranted a whole lot of huge
orchestral backing either.
If you can atl least give me a few examples (names of ghazals) that are her
own musical compositions, I would be interested. I am sure you are right and
don't dispute the point you are making about Begum Akhtar. My comments were not
to deride a woman whose singing I have admired for a long time. It is just I
have been exposed to certain recordings of Begum Akhtar, so any more than what
HMV has released would be wonderful to listen to.
Yours,
Sandip.
jawa...@hotmail.com
s44...@aol.com (S44218) wrote:
>
> Abhinav,
>
> Thank you for the prompt reply to my post... It was indeed most helpful. It
> does, however, leave me wanting you to elaborate upon the compleixities of
> light music and why our artists therefore want the aid of arrangers and
> composers.
>
Well, I am not in a position to write about all the points that you
have raised (and there have been quite a few informative posts on
this thread) but let me tell you a story.
It was a semi-formal concert of Shriniwas Khale's in our college in
Bombay. Mr. Khale started the program with a beautiful song with its tune
belonging to raga Marwa. Immediately after the song the professor
who was organizing the programme commented that it was very
nice of Mr. Khale to start the evening concert with Marwa. On this
Mr. Khale immediately pointed out that it was just a coincidence that
he had sung that song in the evening. He said that the lyrics of the
song had demanded the notes of Marwa and he hoped that somebody who did
not have a faintest idea about Marwa also was able to enjoy it as much!
Abhinav Jawadekar
jawa...@hotmail.com
s44...@aol.com (S44218) wrote:
>
> Abhinav,
>
> I would be interested in hearing a more about these recording of Begum Akhtar
> which you say are done without the help of a music arranger or composer. What
I
> have heard are primarly the HMV recordings of her that are commercially
> available and were done in studios. Those are the ones which I have been
> primarly exposed to and, incidentally, have not warranted a whole lot of huge
> orchestral backing either.
Some confusion here... I did not say anything about Begum's recordings.
It was somebody else.
Abhinav
Ajay P Nerurkar
: Many music directors can create nice tunes, nice in an
: classical-music-sense; but they probably cannot perform for
: three hours, neither can they create a bandish.
: Examples?
: Bhimsen and Ram Phatak/Khale/P.L. Deshpande. Hridaynath
: Mangeshkar as a composer and many many singers, Ram Kadam
: as composer and Sudhir Phadke as singer, P.L. Deshpande
: as composer and Vasantrao Deshpande as singer.
Pu.La. was quite an accomplished classical harmonium player, and
was easily able to give solo performances. I am not sure how
prolific he was as a composer. Are there many Pu.La./Bhimsen and
Pu.La./Vasantrao combos ? And are there any outside of film songs ?
Ajay
Vivek R. Datar
>: Examples?
You are right. Pu.La was not a prolific as a composer. One of the
reasons may be that he left the film industry thoroughly disgusted
and never ever came back.
Another interesting point is that for the "Indrayani Kaathi"
abhanga, the organ is played by Vasantrao Deshpande.
>Ajay
Ashok
>
>
>Abhinav,
I think you are mistaken here! Your remarks must be addressed to Abhay P.
Since I also object to your remarks on Begum Akhtar (and on Murli Manohar
Swarup), let me take it up.
>I would be interested in hearing a more about these recording of Begum Akhtar
>which you say are done without the help of a music arranger or composer. What I
>have heard are primarly the HMV recordings of her that are commercially
>available and were done in studios. Those are the ones which I have been
>primarly exposed to and, incidentally, have not warranted a whole lot of huge
>orchestral backing either.
> If you can atl least give me a few examples (names of ghazals) that are her
>own musical compositions, I would be interested. I am sure you are right and
>don't dispute the point you are making about Begum Akhtar. My comments were not
>to deride a woman whose singing I have admired for a long time. It is just I
>have been exposed to certain recordings of Begum Akhtar, so any more than what
>HMV has released would be wonderful to listen to.
>
>Yours,
>Sandip.
I reproduce your offending paragraph below.
>As for Begum Akhtar, I can understand why she would use another person to help
>her with her ghazal renditions. I by no means deny her incredible talent as a
>thumri and ghazal singer, but she has always struck me as one who could not
>deal with composition and especially arrangement.
I consider the above totally unwarranted, gratuitous remarks. What do you mean
"she always struck you as"? Is it written on one's face that he/she "could not
deal with composition and especially arragenement"? Juxtaposting it with praise
for her singing does not make you a fair-minded person. The question is simply
if you had any business making the statements you did. You did not. Abhay's
objections were well-taken.
I also take exception to the tone of your remarks on MM Swarup. The next
sentence will do as a sample.
>I just was curious how she
>wound up with a music director who did bhajans for Hari Om Sharan and Manna
>Dey.
This is another prejudiced remark by you. You seem to be making a whole host
of unstated assumptions: Composing bhajans for Hari Om Sharan and Manna Dey is
a job for utterly worthless people; a top artist like Begum Akhtar ought to have
no associates with such scum of the earth. Thrust a piece of paper on which
lyrics are written into the hands of a good singer and ask him/her to sing,
and good song will materialize; there is no value added by a composer. THis
last one seems to be your basis for raising the question in the first place.
And of course, there seems to be a particularly derisory tone toward bhajans
in your post.
I have no spspecial knowledge of how great songs come to be and what exactly
are the respective composer and singer to the final product. All I can do
within the limits of my ignorance is note the presence of the same composer
in many songs I have liked and have positive associations for him. For your
information MM Swarup has been prolific as a composer for ghazals and nazms.
Many of the best-loved non-filmi songs of Mukesh were composed by him, e.g,
"mere mehboob mere dost" and "tum aaj ha.nste ho". There are a number of
composers, who haven't found a foothold in the world of film music, but have
composed excellent son-film songs, like Kishore Desai and V. Balsara. In fact,
befire Khayyam made it big in 'Kabhi Kabhie", he made a living mainly through
his non-film work. And OP Nayyar's breakthrough came because of his success
with a non-film song ("preetam aan milo" sung by CH Atma).
There are a number of cassette releases of Begum Akhtar's AIR recordings:
1. HMV has a double-cassette album "Bemisaal: Ghazals by Begum Akhtar".
2. "Begum Akhtar: Thumris, Sawans and Ghazals" by Music India Limited.
3. "Begum Akhtar: Thumri, Kajri, Hori, Sawan, Dadra" also by MIL.
The cassettes give only the name of the lyricist (including just a
designation that the lyrics are traditional). They don't indicate who the
composer is. Incidentally, it is true of many of the tracks in the HMV's
studio recordings also. Not all songs in the 4-cassette Golden Collection
have composer credit.
There is one cassette of MIL, "Malika-e-Ghazal Begum Akhtar in Mehfil",
which explicitly gives composer credit to Begum Akhtar herself. The lyrics
were by one 'Yahiya' Jasdanwala. It purports to be "From the recorded
collection of Jasdanwalla family."
Ashok