tilak kamod or not?
Vijay Kumar
Last month, Iqbal Ahmed Khan (Delhi gharana) sang malhar ke
prakar at India Habitat Centre, Delhi. This was a couple of days after
Amit
Mukherjee had done a good imitation of Amir Khan. And while the former
is a very friendly and nice artist, "Karim naam tero" sounds much better
in
the latter's deeper voice and gravity of style.
Anyway, Iqbal Ahmed Khan sang several other malhars, and at the
end, sang "ab ke sawan ghar aaja". He made two emphatic statements about
it first --
1. "these days" people sing it as a thumri, but he wanted to make it
clear that
it was not one -- it was a "sawan" instead.
2. people say that it is Tilak Kamod, he said, but it really isn't --
his guru
had told him that it was pilu-barwa-malhar instead. He wouldn't say
what or why?
So gurujanaah, just what is p-b-malhar, and why is "abke sawan"
not tilak kamod?
Vijay
Rajan P. Parrikar
> Anyway, Iqbal Ahmed Khan sang several other malhars, and at the
>
>end, sang "ab ke sawan ghar aaja". He made two emphatic statements about
>
>it first --
>
>1. "these days" people sing it as a thumri, but he wanted to make it
>clear that
>it was not one -- it was a "sawan" instead.
>
>2. people say that it is Tilak Kamod, he said, but it really isn't --
>his guru
>had told him that it was pilu-barwa-malhar instead. He wouldn't say
>what or why?
>
> So gurujanaah, just what is p-b-malhar, and why is "abke sawan"
>not tilak kamod?
First, the question 'what is piloo-barwA-malhAr'?
It is a conflation of three rAgas: Piloo, Barwa and
Malhar. Typically these combinations are used in
folksy, lighter renditions. Although baDA kHayAls
exist in Barwa it is for most intents a kshudra rAga.
Alternating between Piloo and Barwa is a familiar
theme given their allied swara phrasings. As
for roping in Malhar, there are a number of ways.
One can make do with just the R-P, or add the
nDN portion or even combine it all with the Miyan
Malharic (M)g M R S where M=shuddha madhyam.
To answer your second question - Let me just say
that a P-B-M rendition will sound very different from
T-Kamod. There is no way one can confuse these two
very disparate melodies.
Warm regards,
r
ps: To the ass who wants to start the mailing list:
godspeed, dude. Just go and do it instead of staging
whiny exit threats here. Rmic will continue to thrive.
You won't be missed, rest assured (unless you keep
begging of us to miss you, like you have been doing
these past few days). Now take your U-Haul truck and
bug off.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>In article <8rd80...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Although baDA kHayAls
>> exist in Barwa it is for most intents a kshudra rAga.
>
>what is a kshudra raga? could you elaborate on that ?
Note to Erskine: This post contains a discussion of music.
Ergo, it is not meant for you.
The word "kshudra" (not to be confused with the word
"shudra") literally means 'small' or 'insignificant.'
In the context of Hindustani music it refers to rAgas
that are traditionally not considered 'big' or 'serious.'
Note that this does not mean these rAgas are not
popular (au contraire, kshudra rAgas are hugely popular)
or that they lack beauty and other nice attributes.
They are not 'big' rAgas because there are no (or very
few) traditional dhrupads or baDA kHayAls in them.
There is, of course, nothing that fundamentally
precludes a kshudra rAga from attaining the big guy status.
Traditions and tastes evolve. Some examples of kshudra rAgas
are Mand, Piloo, Barwa etc.
Warm regards,
r
naniwadekar
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Although baDA kHayAls
> exist in Barwa it is for most intents a kshudra rAga.
what is a kshudra raga? could you elaborate on that ?
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
naniwadekar
> Ergo, it is not meant for you.
>
> The word "kshudra" (not to be confused with the word
> "shudra") literally means 'small' or 'insignificant.'
> In the context of Hindustani music it refers to rAgas
> that are traditionally not considered 'big' or 'serious.'
Oops. I used to call Pahadi, Piloo etc non-khayal raagas
Union Territories. (Poor shri Erskine may not understand this joke.)
So thanks for letting us know the technical term for it. Since it was
used in the context of Barwa, a name I had never heard before, it was
quite confusing for me.
So Yaman, Todi, Bageshri are UP or Bihar like states. (I hope Yaman etc
do not mind this comparison. I am going by size of the population
alone.) Nand, Durga etc maybe like Orissa-Punjab. And then we have
Union Territories.
How about, say, Jait Kalyan ? I had an expert say that it had a small
heart (jaan chhoti hai). But there are khayals in it, and Jaipur people
and even non-Jaipur Abhisheki sing it often and well.
Is it that Piloo and Pahadi don't lend themselves to khayal and are
suitable for thumri ? I think Keith Erskine mentioned Budhaditya doing
justice to all 12 notes of bhairavi. How is that? A raag may use shudh
nishad in ascent and komal nishad in avaroh. But does bhairavi give a
leeway to use all 12 notes? I had read bhairavi uses all komal notes.
Vijay Kumar
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
>
> To answer your second question - Let me just say
> that a P-B-M rendition will sound very different from
> T-Kamod. There is no way one can confuse these two
> very disparate melodies.
Khan sang it similar to the way Begum Akhtar has, which is
supposed to be TK, isn't it?
Nani wrote:
> Since it was
> used in the context of Barwa, a name I had never heard before, it was
> quite confusing for me.
I have a Barwa clip which I shall shortly supply.
Vijay
Rajan P. Parrikar
>How about, say, Jait Kalyan ? I had an expert say that it had a small
>heart (jaan chhoti hai). But there are khayals in it, and Jaipur people
>and even non-Jaipur Abhisheki sing it often and well.
Even in the 'kHayAl rAgas' there are those that are
expansive (eg. Bhairav, Kalyan, Malkauns) and those
that have a very limited compass for elaboration.
Most fall between these two extremes. The driver is how
the structure of rAga is balanced between the poorvAnga
and uttarAnga. Consider pure Nat, at one extreme. It is a
kHayAl and dhrupad rAga but there is not much you can do
in the uttarAnga. The definitive action there is in the
poorvAnga. Whereas for Yaman (say) there is expressive
potential everywhere. Jait Kalyan is pentatonic (S R G P D -
the same notes as Bhoopali and Deshkar) but it has peculiar
clusters and the P-S" coupling that is, in the sense
just described, constraining.
>Is it that Piloo and Pahadi don't lend themselves to khayal and are
>suitable for thumri ?
No. S.N. Ratanjankar, for instance, has composed kHayAls in Piloo.
>I think Keith Erskine mentioned Budhaditya doing
>justice to all 12 notes of bhairavi. How is that? A raag may use shudh
>nishad in ascent and komal nishad in avaroh. But does bhairavi give a
>leeway to use all 12 notes? I had read bhairavi uses all komal notes.
Almost all rAgas considered to be kshudra are embellished
in this manner by swaras external to the rAgas. In such cases
they are qualified by the prefix 'Mishra.' Bhairavi nominally
employs r, g, d, n (all komal) but it is not uncommon to
touch all 12 swaras in its 'Mishra' mode.
Warm regards,
r
naniwadekar
>
I should guess it was just an exercise at showing that a khayal can be
composed in Piloo, too. Alladiya Khan sahib had composed a few (six?)
bandishes in tilak-kamod with komal dhaivat. And a friend has heard
Mansur's Marwa using the wrong dhaivat. (I think marwa uses shudh
dhaivat, and mansur used komal D). Govindrao Patwardhan thought Mansur
may have made a mistake and played shudh D (I am assuming shudh D is
the right one for marwa). Mansur indicated to him (GP) with a smaile
that he knew what he was doing and proceeded with his (komal D) marwa.
you have mentioned "pure" Nat. Are (just) Nat and shuddha Nat the same
or are they 2 different raagas?
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar wrote:
> And a friend has heard
> Mansur's Marwa using the wrong dhaivat. (I think marwa uses shudh
> dhaivat, and mansur used komal D). Govindrao Patwardhan thought Mansur
> may have made a mistake and played shudh D (I am assuming shudh D is
> the right one for marwa). Mansur indicated to him (GP) with a smaile
> that he knew what he was doing and proceeded with his (komal D) marwa.
>
In a concert at the Tata Auditorium in Bombay on October 24, 1981, Mansur
sang Marwa with shuddh dhaivat. It's on Navras. This phrase is repeated
in the bandish:
S r G m D(m)D
r (komal), m (tivra)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Rajan P. Parrikar
>you have mentioned "pure" Nat. Are (just) Nat and shuddha Nat the same
>or are they 2 different raagas?
They are two different rAgas. Nat by itself is nowadays
rarely sung (there are recorded renditions, including ones
by Mansur) and is primarily looked upon as a rAgAnga rAga.
Its poorvAnga signature has been put to good use to generate
several varieties and hybrids (eg. Shuddha Nat, Saar Nat,
Savani Nat, Kamod Nat, Kedar Nat, Nat Bilawal, Nat Bhairav
and so on).
Warm regards,
r
ps: If you keep asking questions related to music you
may put Erskine out of business. He will have nothing
to say and nothing to whine about.
Rajan P. Parrikar
> Khan sang it similar to the way Begum Akhtar has, which is
>supposed to be TK, isn't it?
Since I had no recall of the thumri I had a friend sing it
for me. The mukhDA (the piece is taken 'madhyam-se') is
Tilak Kamod-like. So is the beginning of the antarA. Note
that this being a thumri liberty is taken with rAga structure,
but if we had to put a label then TK it would be. I don't
know what made Khan say this is Piloo-Barwa-Malhar. Not
even a moorchhanA would yield that combination.
> I have a Barwa clip which I shall shortly supply.
Amir Khan has a nice recording of kHayAl in the rAga.
Warm regards,
r
sanj...@my-deja.com
>
> > Khan sang it similar to the way Begum Akhtar has, which
is
> >supposed to be TK, isn't it?
>
> Since I had no recall of the thumri I had a friend sing it
> for me. The mukhDA (the piece is taken 'madhyam-se') is
> Tilak Kamod-like. So is the beginning of the antarA. Note
> that this being a thumri liberty is taken with rAga structure,
> but if we had to put a label then TK it would be. I don't
> know what made Khan say this is Piloo-Barwa-Malhar. Not
> even a moorchhanA would yield that combination.
I don't know Barwa at all, but I have heard this thumri (from another
Pakistani artiste in the Music Today series, can't recall the name),
and I was inclined to think the same. Lata M. has sung a snippet of
this in the movie Jhanak Jhanak Paayal Baaje. It occurs as part of a
medley which includes compositions in Basant (Ritu Basant something? in
Adachautaal I think) and Shuddh Saarang (Patjhad Chhaayee in Roopak
Taal). Her words are slightly different (is it Ab To Saawan Ghar
Aaja?), but the mukhda is the same TK-ish one.
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Jason Mainland
sanj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Lata M. has sung a snippet of
> this in the movie Jhanak Jhanak Paayal Baaje. It occurs as part of a
> medley which includes compositions in Basant (Ritu Basant something? in
> Adachautaal I think) and Shuddh Saarang (Patjhad Chhaayee in Roopak
> Taal).
Mansur sings the bandish "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" in Nat-Bihag.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Agra master Faiyaz Khansahib first
recorded the composition on a 78 rpm record - and it became so popular
that the folks in Bollywood got interested!
Regards,
Jason Mainland
sanj...@my-deja.com
Yes, but that's a different topic...I was referring to a MOVIE named
Jhanak Jhanak Paayal Baaje. Maybe that post should have gone to RMIM?
Jason Mainland
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> Yes, but that's a different topic...I was referring to a MOVIE named
> Jhanak Jhanak Paayal Baaje. Maybe that post should have gone to RMIM?
No, because the song I was referring, "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" to
eventually became a Bollywood hit after being popularized by the
aforementioned 78 rpm *classical* recording by Faiyaz Khan. Related enough
to classical music for you? Maybe if you want to discuss movies YOU should
go to RMIM.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
sanj...@my-deja.com
I was discussing a song in Tilak Kamod FROM A MOVIE, not the MOVIE
itself...and I wasn't referring to YOUR post when I said maybe it
should have gone to RMIM - I was talking about mine. Your post is AMPLY
related to classical music, but has nothing to do with Tilak Kamod.
That's why I said it was on another topic.
Take it easy.
Jason Mainland
Sanjeev Ramabhandran wrote:
>
> >Take it easy.
You know, there's a good Bob Marley song that uses this as a refrain. One
of the verses goes:
'Scuse me while I light my spliff
Oh God, I got to take a lift
From reality I just can't drift
That's why I'm staying with this riff
Speaking of Tilak Kamod, Padma Talwalkar sung this in concert last
weekend. After ten minutes or so I turned to my friend, "Tilak Kamod,
right?" He said "Yep, though at first I thought it might have been Gaur
Malhar".
By the way, has anyone heard the truly brilliant recording of Kishori
singing Gaur Malhar? After the vilambit gat, she goes into a second gat
using a 3-3-2 rhythmic combination which can be accurately described in
hippie lingo as *funky*.
Sorry for changing the subject so much - enough non-Indian music for an
RMIC post? ;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar
jm...@earthlink.net wrote:
> No, because the song I was referring, "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" to
> eventually became a Bollywood hit after being popularized by the
Am I wrong in believing that the term Bollywood came to be associated
with B_ombay Film industry fairly recently ? I had never heard this
term until 1990s, I think.
If that be true, then it strikes me as extremely odd that this old
song "jhan jhan jhan jhan paayal baaje" be called a bollywood hit.
Neither SD Burman during his Buzdil years nor Vasant Desai (jhanak
jhanak paayal baaje) worked for "Bollywood". Bollywood only suggests
today's miserable MDs to me, whatever their names. Whether the
term "MDs" applies to them is also a debatable point.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
chetan vinchhi
Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DCCDE0...@earthlink.net...
>
> No, because the song I was referring, "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" to
> eventually became a Bollywood hit after being popularized by the
I think this is a highly romanticized version of the story. I don't think
Faiyaz Khan's music had *that* sort of mass appeal. More likely,
the MD (S.D.Burman, in case you are interested) or somebody
heard the FK recording or some other rendition of the cheez and
thought it was "catchy" enough to be used for a film song. This
was not an entirely unheard-of thing, really. Many traditional
bandishes are adapted for popular songs. Roshan Lal, who was
trained in the Agra tradition I believe, used to do it quite often.
For instance, he used the Gaud Malhar (which does not sound
a bit like Tilak Kamod, BTW :) ) bandish "garajat barasat bhiijat
aailo" in a film song, not once but twice!
> Maybe if you want to discuss movies YOU should
> go to RMIM.
That is exactly what Sanjeev said in his post. Perhaps you
ought to ease up a little.
C
Jason Mainland
chetan vinchhi wrote:
> I think this is a highly romanticized version of the story. I don't think
> Faiyaz Khan's music had *that* sort of mass appeal.
Don't know the specifics of the story myself. That's why I prefaced my
relation of the story with "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe...."
> More likely,
> the MD (S.D.Burman, in case you are interested) or somebody
> heard the FK recording or some other rendition of the cheez and
> thought it was "catchy" enough to be used for a film song. This
> was not an entirely unheard-of thing, really.
I assume this is probably what happened. Don't know the specifics myself.
> Many traditional
> bandishes are adapted for popular songs.
This is probably what makes the older film music better than the B.S. out
there today.
> Roshan Lal, who was
> trained in the Agra tradition I believe, used to do it quite often.
> For instance, he used the Gaud Malhar (which does not sound
> a bit like Tilak Kamod, BTW :) )
No, it doesn't, but to untrained ears it might. In GM, for example (at
least in the Kishori recording I mention), the phrase R G S P P P appears
strongly in the bandish (in that 3-3-2 beat). To an unschooled ear, it
would be hard to differentiate the distinguishable TK phrase, P S R G S R P
M G, from this. Probably 80% of the audience last Saturday had no clue
which of these ragas was being sung.
> Perhaps you ought to ease up a little.
Go back and read Rajib Doogar's post in reaction to Keith Erksine's
Budhaditya Mukherjee concert review. Then look at a couple of his most
recent posts. Then ask Rajib what made him "ease up" so much.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar wrote:
> Am I wrong in believing that the term Bollywood came to be associated
> with B_ombay Film industry fairly recently ? I had never heard this
> term until 1990s, I think.
Sorry, let me rephrase: instead of "Bollywood hit", insert "Bombay Film
Industry Hit"
Thanks Nani for the historical note. Now by golly go catch your trolley.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders
>> eventually became a Bollywood hit after being popularized by the
>> aforementioned 78 rpm *classical* recording by Faiyaz Khan.
There are literally hundreds of bandishes with "Jhan jhan jhan"
type lyrics. I don't recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the
popular Nat-Bihag cheez (which has also been sung by Master
Vasant of Surat, and played on violin by V.G. Jog w/Thirakwa --
-- both in my 78 collection).
I do seem to recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the Darbari
Kanada bandish "Jhanaka jhanaka payal baje," however.
Jason, be careful with mukhda lyrics. While some are
very much raga-specific ("jago Mohan pyare tum" is
an automatic Bhairav indicator; "peer na jaane re balama" is
a good default Malkauns; "e bara saiyan" denotes Nand) it's
not possible to generalize on the basis of more generic
sahitya. To make the point, off the top of my head I can
think of songs using "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" or very similar
text in the following ragas (and this is without consulting my
notes):
Darbari
Chhayanat
Nat Bihag
Bhairavi
Nand
Jaunpuri
Puriya Dhanashri
Madhuvanti
Marwa
Multani
WS
chetan vinchhi
> Don't know the specifics of the story myself. That's why I prefaced my
> relation of the story with "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe...."
I did think you were wrong, and I was merely trying to correct you.
> > Many traditional
> > bandishes are adapted for popular songs.
>
> This is probably what makes the older film music better than the B.S. out
> there today.
This is again a romanticized and over-simplified way of looking
at things. Indian film and popular music owes much to raag
sangeet, but *not* by way of bandish adaptation. The influences
are far deeper and subtler. But that is beyond the scope of the
current discussion (and the current forum, as you might point
out yourself).
> > Perhaps you ought to ease up a little.
>
> Go back and read Rajib Doogar's post in reaction to Keith Erksine's
> Budhaditya Mukherjee concert review. Then look at a couple of his most
> recent posts. Then ask Rajib what made him "ease up" so much.
Please do not speak in riddles. What is on your mind? Do tell.
I am not very good at deciphering cryptic references to thread
histories. So it would help me a great deal if you said what you
want to say clearly.
Thanks
C
naniwadekar
jm...@earthlink.net wrote:
> > Many traditional bandishes are adapted for popular songs.
>
> This is probably what makes the older film music better than the B.S.
> out there today.
>
As Chetan has already pointed out, there is more to the deserved
popularity of old songs than just that. But if you post that statement
of yours on rmim, you will probably find many people nod in complete
agreement. It counts among one of the many romantic fancies associated
with old film music.
In fact there is so much more to the old film music than bandishes
being adapted for it, that your statement, or, your guess since you
have used the word "probably", is not justified at all.
Roshan-Lata's "garajat barsat" (malhar) and "eri aali piya bin"
and "kaun gali gayo shyam" are all boring songs.
naniwadekar
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:
>
> There are literally hundreds of bandishes with "Jhan jhan jhan"
> type lyrics. I don't recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the
> popular Nat-Bihag cheez (which has also been sung by Master
> Vasant of Surat, and played on violin by V.G. Jog w/Thirakwa --
> -- both in my 78 collection).
>
Buzdil. Music Director : S D Burman. This has already been mentioned in
this thread.
> I do seem to recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the Darbari
> Kanada bandish "Jhanaka jhanaka payal baje," however.
>
Amir Khan + chorus have sung it in the film titled : jhanak jhanak
paayal baaje. MD - Vasant Desai. It is in Adana, not Darbari. Is this
bandish sung in Darbari also ?
I have heard these 4 words : "jhanak jhanak paayal baaje" sung by Lata
in raag Basant. TV channel "Zee Cinema" used to play that 4-word clip
in the background for their 60-70 second announcement / trailer in the
run-up to this film. It was screened around Jan 1994, when this Lata
clip was played often. Is this clip used in the film also? I have asked
many RMIMers, including shri Satish Kalra. He was my best bet. But he
did not know about it either. Anybody ?
> sahitya. To make the point, off the top of my head I can
> think of songs using "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" or very similar
> text in the following ragas (and this is without consulting my
> notes):
>
I have heard Bhimsen's "jhanan jhan thumak pag paayal baaje", chhota
khayal in Puriya. I may even be able to trace it to its source in
Nagpur.
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders wrote:
> There are literally hundreds of bandishes with "Jhan jhan jhan"
> type lyrics. I don't recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the
> popular Nat-Bihag cheez
Thanks for the point Warren. I must admit I am ignorant on Hindi film
lyrics. I was referring to the Nat-Bihag one (78 rpm Faiyaz Khan
version), which a respected friend of mine had indicated existed.
> Jason, be careful with mukhda lyrics. While some are
> very much raga-specific ("jago Mohan pyare tum" is
> an automatic Bhairav indicator; "peer na jaane re balama" is
> a good default Malkauns; "e bara saiyan" denotes Nand) it's
> not possible to generalize on the basis of more generic
> sahitya. To make the point, off the top of my head I can
> think of songs using "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" or very similar
> text in the following ragas (and this is without consulting my
> notes):
>
> Darbari
> Chhayanat
> Nat Bihag
> Bhairavi
> Nand
> Jaunpuri
> Puriya Dhanashri
> Madhuvanti
> Marwa
> Multani
I would not contest anything you said, because I know you have much more
listening experience than I do.
By the way, a point of clarification on my last post. I mistakenly showed
Kishori's Gaur Malhar phrase as R G S P P P. I meant G M R P P P.
As for TK/GM being similar, indeed even untrained ears would be hard
pressed to confuse the two, prime indication being the double nishad so
prominent in Gaur Malhar. So I did not mean to infer this from my comment
about Padma's rendition. However if you ignore the nishad, the same notes
are basically used, sounding like a major scale to Western ears. Many
people would perhaps not be able to tell the difference. That's all.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
chetan vinchhi wrote:
> Please do not speak in riddles. What is on your mind? Do tell.
> I am not very good at deciphering cryptic references to thread
> histories. So it would help me a great deal if you said what you
> want to say clearly.
I have spoken up much more than I had perhaps initially planned over the last
week. If you are interested in my feelings you can read the following
threads:
Budhaditya Mukherjee Concert Review
Clarification of This Terminology?
Hippies: The Scourge of RMIC? Off-Topic Digression (Long)
Libel and Defamation in the Information Age
In the contents of those posts you will find your answers.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Shan2468
repeated anything, my apologies.
I really can't comment on the differences between Pilu, Barwa, and so on.. I
am wondering if the Tilak Kamod version of "Ab Ke Savan" was the version made
popular by Iqbal Bano. This has been released a number of times on different
CDs of her music including the Gulistan series released by Music Today. Her
version (if I remember correctly) was indeed based on Tilak Kamod. I think she
another thumri on that MT release based on Raga Desh.
I have the recording on LP of Ustad Faiyaz Khansaheb singing the Nat Bihag
composition "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" and SDB lifted the composition, but
changed the lyrics into Bengali and sang on a 78/45 r.p.m. I know that because
I have the LP of SDB singing it as well.
Btw... was Ustad Amir Khansaheb's "Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje" for the movie of
the same name based on Raga Adana ? I haven't seen the movie in ages.
Yours,
Sandip.
Balaji A.S. Murthy
It is possible that the reference was to "jhanak jhanak tori baaje paayaliya"
from MERE HUZOOR. Now that one would be darbari.
- Balaji
Rajan P. Parrikar
>was not an entirely unheard-of thing, really. Many traditional
>bandishes are adapted for popular songs. Roshan Lal, who was
>trained in the Agra tradition I believe, used to do it quite often.
>For instance, he used the Gaud Malhar (which does not sound
>a bit like Tilak Kamod, BTW :) ) bandish "garajat barasat bhiijat
>aailo" in a film song, not once but twice!
One such adaptation by Roshan is done in masterly fashion
in the movie CHITRALEKHA, Mohammad Rafi's immortal "mana re
tu kAhe nA dheera dhare," set to Raga Yaman Kalyan. Indians
who have heard this sublime number KNOW Yaman Kalyan whether
or not they have swara-cognition (the soporific butthead
who recently discovered fire and Y-Kalyan, please take note).
The inspiration for this masterpiece is the traditional
composition in that rAga, the text of which is attributed
to Tulsidas:
manA tu kAhe nA dheera dharata ab
dheera dhare saba kA raja sudharata
jAke sara Raghunath birAjata vAke saba hi kA raja sAdhata
'Tulasidasa' Raghunath krupA te bighana saba Tarata
Recall how Sahir alters the above mukhDA in his lyric. The
original bandish tune is also appropriately modified by Roshan.
The sarod is featured quite prominently in the interludes. I
wonder if it is Ali Akbar. He teaches this same bandish in
Yaman Kalyan (or in Yaman, I don't remember the precise detail)
but as a different melody with awkward pauses. The traditional
version (with roughly the same mukhDA as the opening line
Roshan's number) has the sAhitya and melody perfectly coupled.
Roshan's work deserves to be studied by every student of
Hindustani classical music for its handling of swara. Sir Vish
Krishnan's superb compilation tape alongwith his commentary
made last year (not for sale) is an excellent start.
Warm regards,
r
Jason Mainland
Shan2468 wrote:
> I have the recording on LP of Ustad Faiyaz Khansaheb singing the Nat Bihag
> composition "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje" and SDB lifted the composition, but
> changed the lyrics into Bengali and sang on a 78/45 r.p.m. I know that because
> I have the LP of SDB singing it as well.
Thanks Sandip. By the way, in the thread on Yaman Kalyan I had recommended a
Mansur CD which included his renditions of YK and Nat-Bihag. People interested in
hearing the Mansur's Nat-Bihag version, in which he sings (you guessed it) the
bandish "Jhan Jhan Jhan Payal Baje", should click on
http://saigan.com/hmp/ip6010.htm.
By the way, Mansurji displays delightfully soft but lyrically brilliant "hunkari"
lines during YK in this recording. It also included a beautiful rendition of Khat
in vilambit Jhaptal.
Best regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders wrote:
> There are literally hundreds of bandishes with "Jhan jhan jhan"
> type lyrics. I don't recall hearing a filmi adaptation of the
> popular Nat-Bihag cheez
Both Bihagra and Nat-Bihag evoke the srinagara rasa. Supposedly there is
a recording of Bihagra by Mansur in the bandish "E Pyari Paga Hole Hole
Dhariye". I have heard that the song is about a nayika (heronie) on her
way to keep a secret tryst with her lover, something like "O lovely one,
step soft and slow lest your ankle bells give you away". The Nat-Bihag
bandish has be described along the lines of other women in the household
being roused from slumber by the chimes of the nayika's anklet.
Any thoughts on the relevance of these particular meanings in
Bihagra/Nat-Bihag to the use of "Jhan Jhan...." and other phraseology
which appears in several bandishes? Why is it such a common phrase?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
sanj...@my-deja.com
naniwadekar <nan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Roshan-Lata's "garajat barsat" (malhar) and "eri aali piya bin"
> and "kaun gali gayo shyam" are all boring songs.
"Garjat Barsat Bheejat Aailo" BORING? Are you SERIOUS?
As several RMIM/RMICers have pointed out, it is a beautiful rendition.
Sure there's nothing much in the way of orchestration or fireworks, but
Lata is right on her game in this one!
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
chetan vinchhi
> One such adaptation by Roshan is done in masterly fashion
> in the movie CHITRALEKHA, Mohammad Rafi's immortal "mana re
> tu kAhe nA dheera dhare," set to Raga Yaman Kalyan.
Absolutely! Also in Chitralekha, he adapted the Kamod
staple 'e rii jaane na duu.ngii' to a filmi mould to wonderful
effect.
This Kamod Bandish has been sung extremely well on an
HMV release by Shubhada Paradkar (student of
Gajananbua Joshi) who is a great Gwalior singer of the
younger generation. She also sings Hindol and a Tappa
on the album. Apart from the usual wonderful voice that
spans 3 octaves etc., she has great facility with laya. She
does some powerful and highly sophisticated layakari
in true Gwalior tradition. This is a must-listen!
> Roshan's work deserves to be studied by every student of
> Hindustani classical music for its handling of swara.
I heartily second that!
C
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Both Bihagra and Nat-Bihag evoke the srinagara rasa. Supposedly there is
>a recording of Bihagra by Mansur in the bandish "E Pyari Paga Hole Hole
Not just one, there are several Mansur recordings of "paga hole,"
a composition of Alladiya Khan. I have both the Mansur and Kesarbai
renderings of the composition placed in the Sawf archives under
the "Two Variants of Bihag" article. Mansur places the sam on
the pancham (a Manji Khan artifact) against the original gandhAr.
Kesarbai's rendition is breathtaking, the poor sound quality
notwithstanding.
http://www.parrikar.prohosting.com/bihagdapat/kesarbai_bihagda.ram
http://www.parrikar.prohosting.com/bihagdapat/mansur_bihagda.ram
>Any thoughts on the relevance of these particular meanings in
>Bihagra/Nat-Bihag to the use of "Jhan Jhan...." and other phraseology
>which appears in several bandishes? Why is it such a common phrase?
It is an onomatopoeic device. The theme of the HHH (hornly hindustani
hag) scheming a late night rendezvous with her lover by giving her
mother-in-law and sister-in-law the slip is a common theme in
traditional bandishes. The possibility of them being woken up by
the jingling of the anklets adds nerve-wracking suspense to the
bandish.
Warm regards,
r
Jason Mainland
> Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >Both Bihagra and Nat-Bihag evoke the srinagara rasa. Supposedly there is
> >a recording of Bihagra by Mansur in the bandish "E Pyari Paga Hole Hole
>
> Not just one, there are several Mansur recordings of "paga hole,"
> a composition of Alladiya Khan. I have both the Mansur and Kesarbai
> renderings of the composition placed in the Sawf archives under
> the "Two Variants of Bihag" article. Mansur places the sam on
> the pancham (a Manji Khan artifact) against the original gandhAr.
Burji never did this too?
>
> Kesarbai's rendition is breathtaking, the poor sound quality
> notwithstanding.
>
> http://www.parrikar.prohosting.com/bihagdapat/kesarbai_bihagda.ram
>
> http://www.parrikar.prohosting.com/bihagdapat/mansur_bihagda.ram
>
> >Any thoughts on the relevance of these particular meanings in
> >Bihagra/Nat-Bihag to the use of "Jhan Jhan...." and other phraseology
> >which appears in several bandishes? Why is it such a common phrase?
>
> It is an onomatopoeic device.
Mansuriji indeed gets quite creative with "Jhan Jhan Jhan Jhan" in a
percussive fashion during the end of his subject rendition of Nat-Bihag.
> The theme of the HHH (hornly hindustani
> hag) scheming a late night rendezvous with her lover by giving her
> mother-in-law and sister-in-law the slip is a common theme in
> traditional bandishes. The possibility of them being woken up by
> the jingling of the anklets adds nerve-wracking suspense to the
> bandish.
Thanks as always for your succinct explanation. Guess when there was no "Zee
TV", people had to use their imaginations.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib
> It is an onomatopoeic device. The theme of the HHH (hornly hindustani
> hag) scheming a late night rendezvous with her lover by giving her
> mother-in-law and sister-in-law the slip is a common theme in
> traditional bandishes. The possibility of them being woken up by
> the jingling of the anklets adds nerve-wracking suspense to the
> bandish.
Indeed, I highly recommend the consumption of both Vidyapati (hindi)
and Jayadeva (sansk.) to appreciate how the pe-Victorian Indian ethos
dealt with the theme of "illicit" desires. To me when I read
Vidyapati for the first time, the woman's perspective protrayed in
some of his verses and the sort of "feminist" voice that this creates
within the space of formal religious and sacred texts which are rather
more patriarchical in tone was surprising. [IMO Jayadeva is more
partiarchical but Vidyapati working in the vernacular is way more
"feminist." At least that is one possible reading.] Also refer to
wedding songs (called bannis in the UP_Rajasthan tradition).
In fact when I read Vidyapati for the first time it shed a great deal
of light on the vaguley scatologically descriptive and innuendo-filled
wedding songs like bannis which women sing during mehndi sessions that
I have heard since early childhood. Before reading Vidyapati and
Jayadeva, I always wondered why the older folks (read grandfatherly
types) who were so insistent on formal and prude correctness in public
spaces "allowed" this kind of singing to go on during a wedding of all
times. Only later did I understand that this was women's space and
that men's writ did not run here, no matter how "big" a man the
grandfathers were to the outside world. And the women saw things very
differently.
So, to me, when these bandishes are sung, many memories are evoked
that have been laid down in the course of daily life and it gives a
charm beyond the immediate textual import. When I hear a bandhish
like this it evokes themes from Vidyapati and going back on that
thread, it evokes themes from Kalidasa, and Jayadeva, but it also
evokes my grandmother singing a banni at her grand-daughter's wedding!
So it becomes a way to think if only for a second about how themes get
woven into a culture. Does this resonate with anyone else's
experience? Or is it really that weird to think about all these things
during a music concert?
On another level, the Atrauli voice production does something to their
ability to expolit the resonance of words like jahanana the
alliterative aspect is exploited by the incredibly rich filigree-like
alankari that a Kesarbai or a Mansur is able to invoke. I have heard
it said that many of Alladiya Khan S's bandishes exploit this very
cleverly and that this was a particular feature of his compostions for
Kesarbai.
[As I write this I am listening to Mansur sing Savani "Deva Deva
Satsang" and Shivmat "Prathama Allah". He just transitioned to the
Prathama Allah track so its time to work on something else. Lucky dog
me].
cheers,
rajib
--
Rajib Doogar www.cba.uiuc.edu/doogar
Rajan P. Parrikar
>> Not just one, there are several Mansur recordings of "paga hole,"
>> a composition of Alladiya Khan. I have both the Mansur and Kesarbai
>> renderings of the composition placed in the Sawf archives under
>> the "Two Variants of Bihag" article. Mansur places the sam on
>> the pancham (a Manji Khan artifact) against the original gandhAr.
>
>Burji never did this too?
I can't confirm the "never," but Burji was more a papa's
boy. Manji, on the other hand, to papa's chagrin, discovered
that he had a mind of his own.
Speaking of Burji, have you had the thing on the Mumbai
streets? Delicious food. Also guaranteed to give you your
first heart attack before you touch 50.
Warm regards,
r
Jason Mainland
> Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >> Not just one, there are several Mansur recordings of "paga hole,"
> >> a composition of Alladiya Khan. I have both the Mansur and Kesarbai
> >> renderings of the composition placed in the Sawf archives under
> >> the "Two Variants of Bihag" article. Mansur places the sam on
> >> the pancham (a Manji Khan artifact) against the original gandhAr.
> >
> >Burji never did this too?
>
> I can't confirm the "never," but Burji was more a papa's
> boy. Manji, on the other hand, to papa's chagrin, discovered
> that he had a mind of his own.
Achcha cha cha. Interesting. When Biswajit Roy Chowdhury plays Bihagra,
he places the sam on pancham, but quickly slides down to gandhar,
sometimes making it a quick P-M-G. Perhaps this is his way of dealing
with fraternal rivalry? By the way, there is a recording of Biswajit
doing a stunning rendition of Bihagra at the Shankar Lal festival in
Delhi in 1987. Mansur had left the hall, in order to prove to others
that he was not "pushing" Biswajit.
Guess who followed BRC? Bhimsen Joshi. Mansurji had gone backstage and
told Bhimsenji to be listening to this young sarodiya whom he had taken
on as a ganda-banda (sp?) disciple. Bhimsen came on stage after BRC's
performance and said something to the effect of "who is this boy who has
played Bihagra so beautifully?" BRC had to go back on stage and touch
his feet, etc. Anyone know of any other *sarodiyas* doing khyal gayaki
like Biswajit? N Rajam, Nityanand Haldipur, etc (Pavan has mentioned
some previously) are also exploring this "khyal-ang" on instruments.
> Speaking of Burji, have you had the thing on the Mumbai
> streets? Delicious food. Also guaranteed to give you your
> first heart attack before you touch 50.
No, I must say I haven't. Chai is my thing ;-).
Regards,
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar
>
I am afraid I don't like it. That is probably the only song from Malhar
that I don't like.
I like his "garajat barasat" suman kalyanpur - kamal barot version a
lot. Did Roshan use it twice because he liked it so much ? Possible. I
would like to think Roshan used it the second time because he was not
satisfied with the first attempt.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
naniwadekar
> a composition of Alladiya Khan.
How about "bairan bain" ? Is that Bihagda, too ? Or is it a bihagda
variant? I think a Mansur version of "bairan bain" is available
commercially. But for "bairan bain" , you must listen to Kishori.
naniwadekar
> boy. Manji, on the other hand, to papa's chagrin, discovered
> that he had a mind of his own.
Was papa that kind of a fellow ? Having had students like Kesarbai and
Moghubai, one would have thought papa would be open to open minds. Or
maybe that kind of thing was not expected in the family. Alladiya
sahib's nephew Nathan Khan never dared to look up in uncle's presence.
But after reading that story, I got the impression that this had more
to do with Nathan Khan's temparament rather than the authority exuded
by the uncle .
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland wrote:
> Anyone know of any other *sarodiyas* doing khyal gayaki
> like Biswajit? N Rajam, Nityanand Haldipur, etc (Pavan has mentioned
> some previously) are also exploring this "khyal-ang" on instruments.
A point of clarification: I did not mean to imply there is *one* possible
instrumental "khyal-ang", by using the word "this".
BRC's khyal-ang is based specifically on his training with Mallikarjun
Mansur from 1983-1992. Prior to this training, BRC had studied with Amjad
Ali Khan for a few years. His initial training, however, came from his
father, Ranajit Roy Chowdhury, as well as Pandit Indranil Bhattacharya, who
was a pupil of the "bandmaster". Thus BRC not only has training from both
major schools of sarod, namely those of Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan and Ustad
Allaudin Khan, but is the ONLY sarodiya to have received such deep talim
from Mansur. He has had the opportunity to learn many rare ragas and
bandishes from the Jaipur-Atrauli repertoire from the man himself. He has
mastered many of these, giving him great distinction as a sarodiya.
Aside from his brilliantly lyrical gayaki, BRC also delights in layakari,
long alaps, using the bass strings, etc, all elements which I assume would
be more in the realm of traditional Maihar beenkar elaboration. Anyone who
has seen him perform will be stunned by the rich variety of musical treasure
which he is able to display. The utter joy in playing which pours through
him is contagious. In his layakari, he makes a wide range of syncopated
statements which challenge even the best tabla players to pay attention. No
room for focusing on the well-practiced mane toss there!
Although Biswajit is now 43, he continues to study with veteran vocalist
Pandit Balasaheb Poonchwale of Gwalior and eminent musicologist Dr Sumati
Mutatkar. His devotion to music has inspired me since I first met him
almost 4 years ago. I'm still working on his first lesson. ;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Rajan P. Parrikar
>So, to me, when these bandishes are sung, many memories are evoked
>that have been laid down in the course of daily life and it gives a
>charm beyond the immediate textual import. When I hear a bandhish
>like this it evokes themes from Vidyapati and going back on that
>thread, it evokes themes from Kalidasa, and Jayadeva, but it also
I, on the other hand, can never move beyond the textual
import in these cases. Consider, for example, the famous
traditional Yaman bandish of the shringAra persuasion,
"jina chhu'O langarwA." The Lord is spending quality time
with a gopikA here, tuning her breasts (among other things).
Vidyapati and Kalidasa don't come to mind as they would
to any normal person upon hearing this composition. Instead
my mind is filled with a vision of breasts and dreams of
trading places with the Lord.
Jha-sahab has rendered this composition (with glowing
tributes to the lyric). I will make a clip, perhaps
over the course of the weekend.
Warm regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Achcha cha cha. Interesting. When Biswajit Roy Chowdhury plays Bihagra,
>he places the sam on pancham, but quickly slides down to gandhar,
>sometimes making it a quick P-M-G. Perhaps this is his way of dealing
I have heard Biswajit Roy Chowdhury's Bihagda and I was
wondering why he doesn't linger on the pancham long enough
a la his guru Mansur. He develops the rAga well. The faster
work leaves something to be desired, not for lack of skill
on the instrument but for his not attempting Mansurian tAna
and layakAri. At any rate, he is very interesting for the
fact that he plays kHayAl anga on the sarod, in the Jaipur
style. After Govindrao Tembe's attempts at reproducing
Alladiya Khan's gAyaki on the harmonium decades ago, this is
most likely the second instrumental assay in that direction.
Warm regards,
r
Jason Mainland
> Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >Achcha cha cha. Interesting. When Biswajit Roy Chowdhury plays Bihagra,
> >he places the sam on pancham, but quickly slides down to gandhar,
> >sometimes making it a quick P-M-G. Perhaps this is his way of dealing
>
> I have heard Biswajit Roy Chowdhury's Bihagda and I was
> wondering why he doesn't linger on the pancham long enough
> a la his guru Mansur. He develops the rAga well.
Perchance people in N. America will get to hear him at some point next year
;-)
> The faster
> work leaves something to be desired, not for lack of skill
> on the instrument but for his not attempting Mansurian tAna
> and layakAri.
Have you ever heard him do the "Jhan Jhan.... Payal..." in Nat-Bihag we were
discussing earlier? In the rendition I have heard, he reproduces some of
Mansur's taans quite effectively. As an artist with multiple influences,
however, he has a wide palate of styles to choose from. If anything, the
main criticism of his playing which I have heard has been that he moves
between styles too freely in a concert. I think this is nonsense. In 1993,
he performed Chayya Nat with Shafaat Ahmed Khan, again at Shankar Lal. He
went through four bandishes, from the vilambit khyals to the fast rabab-style
tarana gats in the end. He also makes subtle references to different
gharanas' interpretations of Chayya Nat, principally focusing on the use of
tivra madhyam. He knows bandishes from so many gharanas that one could say
his mind is overloaded with resources. As for his layakari, it needs to be
experienced live.
> At any rate, he is very interesting for the
> fact that he plays kHayAl anga on the sarod, in the Jaipur
> style. After Govindrao Tembe's attempts at reproducing
> Alladiya Khan's gAyaki on the harmonium decades ago, this is
> most likely the second instrumental assay in that direction.
Ineed. And should be duly noted by people who believe Vilayat Khansaheb or
Amjad are the be-all, end-all, definitive Gayaki Maharajas for All Kingdom
Come. I would hope that innovation would occur over time.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> "Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
>
> After Govindrao Tembe's attempts at reproducing
> > Alladiya Khan's gAyaki on the harmonium decades ago, this is
> > most likely the second instrumental assay in that direction.
The absurdity of reproducing gayaki on the harmonium should be obvious, since
one cannot produce meend on it. No disrespect to Govindrao Tembe, with whose
work I am unfamiliar.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland wrote:
> The absurdity of reproducing gayaki on the harmonium should be obvious, since
> one cannot produce meend on it.
However, there are some great synthesizers with a feature called "portamento",
which slides the note up or down to the new note. You can only play one at a
time. I was in love with a Casio CZ-101 in 1984 which was able to do this.
Anyone who has gone to a movie with a THX sound system or heard a synclavier
will know what I'm talking about. Maybe one of the old master's souls got
trapped inside the hard wiring of a Moog back in the 70's and decided he needed
to express himself.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders
>whose work I am unfamiliar.
Jason, you'd better get crackin' and read your Vamanrao Deshpande.
Tembe is a crucial figure.
But as far as I know there are no recordings of his music available. I
am of course deeply interested if anybody out there knows of any.
WS
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders wrote:
Thanks again Warren. I am not deeply literate in the literature of ICM, I must
admit.
If anyone is so inclined, I would appreciate receiving any suggestions (by
private email, or if you feel like being so audacious as to suggest to everyone,
then on RMIC), any other "crucial" books I should read in order to be literate in
the literature of ICM. Maybe one day I can then become part of the literati. Oh
come on now... don't take little ol' me literally. ;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Have you ever heard him do the "Jhan Jhan.... Payal..." in Nat-Bihag we were
>discussing earlier? In the rendition I have heard, he reproduces some of
>Mansur's taans quite effectively.
The answer to your question re. BRC and "jhan jhan.." is no.
I must caution you against getting carried away with "jhan
jhan...pAyal." These druta renderings were frivolous romps
for Mansur, usually indulged in for playful or nostalgic
value. They are not - were not meant to be - representative
of his Atrauli-Jaipur gAyaki. The Atrauli-Jaipur tAna
conception is not friendly for reproduction on a tantuvAdya.
While BRC's achievements are laudable, one cannot be so
careless as to hand him the Mansur mantle.
As an aside, Mansur often sang another old Agra favourite,
a druta Yaman cheez, indulging in almost the same kind of
play he did in the Nat Bihag cheez - "mukuTa par vAri jA'ooN
nAgara Nanda." The first line in the original antarA is:
"saba devana meN Krishna baDe haiN." As a lingAyat, Mansur
would have none of that. He would nonchalently sing it as:
"saba devana meN Mahadeva baDe haiN."
Warm regards,
r
ps: for "non-Indians," Mahadeva = Shiva
Jason Mainland
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
> I must caution you against getting carried away with "jhan
> jhan...pAyal." These druta renderings were frivolous romps
> for Mansur, usually indulged in for playful or nostalgic
> value. They are not - were not meant to be - representative
> of his Atrauli-Jaipur gAyaki. The Atrauli-Jaipur tAna
> conception is not friendly for reproduction on a tantuvAdya.
> While BRC's achievements are laudable, one cannot be so
> careless as to hand him the Mansur mantle.
Oh I certainly don't intend to do that. He is after all a sarodiya, not a
vocalist. Handing him a "mantle" would be irresponsible of course. My point
was simply that he is the only sarodiya to be attempting khyal-ang principally
in the tradition of Mansur, and has become proficient in playing certain rare
ragas and compositions from the J/A repertoire due to his long training with the
maestro. This makes his abilities much wider than those acquired from the
training he received before 1983. He plays lots of other ragas from his
training in the Maihar/HAK lineages, and it would be incorrect to say that he
can be pegged within one gharana.
Does anyone know of other direct disciples of Mansur who are performing today?
I know that Rajshekar has been performing more lately, but is there anyone else
currently in the concert circuit?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
> As an aside, Mansur often sang another old Agra favourite,
> a druta Yaman cheez, indulging in almost the same kind of
> play he did in the Nat Bihag cheez - "mukuTa par vAri jA'ooN
> nAgara Nanda." The first line in the original antarA is:
> "saba devana meN Krishna baDe haiN." As a lingAyat, Mansur
> would have none of that. He would nonchalently sing it as:
> "saba devana meN Mahadeva baDe haiN."
>
> ps: for "non-Indians," Mahadeva = Shiva
Beautiful. :-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Rajan P. Parrikar
>The absurdity of reproducing gayaki on the harmonium should be obvious, since
>one cannot produce meend on it. No disrespect to Govindrao Tembe, with whose
>work I am unfamiliar.
Then it is time to do some familiarizing. Any "hippie" who
listens to Mansur is off to a good start.
Meends, while v important, are not the be-all and end-all
in Hindustani music. Govindrao Tembe had the sanction, blessing
and the ear of the big man himself (Alladiya Khan). Govindrao had
extraordinary ability on the harmonium and a deep understanding
of music. We have Vamanrao's account of him (check the archives,
I have posted that piece). My father too has heard Tembe in
performance. Neither suggested there was any absurdity in his
playing.
Going back a little there is the example of Bhaiyya
Ganpatrao, one of the pioneers of the thumri and thumri-anga
on the harmonium whose influence the likes of Bismillah
acknowledge in their own playing. He is a key figure in
Indian music. Another example is of Rajabhaiyya Poochwale
(as a homework assignment and find out more about him.
Hint: he is related to Balasaheb, the same fella quoted in
one of your posts). I have in the past mentioned P. Madhukar
from Goa.
Warm regards,
r
ps: I understand there is a 78 rpm of Tembe playing a piece
in Shankara.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Pandit Balasaheb Poonchwale of Gwalior and eminent musicologist Dr Sumati
>Mutatkar.
A minor quibble: Sumati Mutatkar is first a musician.
She was a student of S.N. Ratanjankar and a long time
performer of AIR.
For some reason, in India if one is not a frequent
(or successful) performer and happen to have a
scholarly temper one is immediately labeled a "musicologist."
Sometimes this takes on laughably absurd proportions as
in the case of Bhatkhande. The man was a musician first
and foremost, a vAggeyakAra (who by definition, is, among
other things, a musician), a vidwAn and a shAstrakAra.
For his scholarly work I much prefer the Indian term
"shAstrakAra" to a "musicologist."
Warm regards,
r
vdatar
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
> Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >The absurdity of reproducing gayaki on the harmonium should be obvious, since
> >one cannot produce meend on it. No disrespect to Govindrao Tembe, with whose
> >work I am unfamiliar.
>
> Then it is time to do some familiarizing. Any "hippie" who
> listens to Mansur is off to a good start.
>
> Meends, while v important, are not the be-all and end-all
> in Hindustani music. Govindrao Tembe had the sanction, blessing
> and the ear of the big man himself (Alladiya Khan). Govindrao had
> extraordinary ability on the harmonium and a deep understanding
> of music. We have Vamanrao's account of him (check the archives,
> I have posted that piece). My father too has heard Tembe in
> performance. Neither suggested there was any absurdity in his
> playing.
>
> Going back a little there is the example of Bhaiyya
> Ganpatrao, one of the pioneers of the thumri and thumri-anga
> on the harmonium whose influence the likes of Bismillah
It is widely believed that the layakari in Bilmillah's playing is heavily
influenced by Bhaiyya Ganapatrao's style
>
> acknowledge in their own playing. He is a key figure in
> Indian music. Another example is of Rajabhaiyya Poochwale
> (as a homework assignment and find out more about him.
> Hint: he is related to Balasaheb, the same fella quoted in
> one of your posts). I have in the past mentioned P. Madhukar
> from Goa.
Madhukar Pednakar, aptly called harmonium wizard.
Govindrao himself was also a composer (e.g. "taarini, nava vasana dhaarini",
composing for "Patwardhan", which is a play by somewhat different name,
Tulsidas, which is another play), music critique and also acted a little bit.
-Vivek
Jason Mainland
> Jason Mainland <jm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >The absurdity of reproducing gayaki on the harmonium should be obvious, since
> >one cannot produce meend on it. No disrespect to Govindrao Tembe, with whose
> >work I am unfamiliar.
>
> Then it is time to do some familiarizing. Any "hippie" who
> listens to Mansur is off to a good start.
Maybe other "hippies" will take note too. Instrumental music too often
overshadows vocal in the West. (Note to Nani: you're corresponding in this
newsgroup with a "white boy" who happens to be a recognized ICM vocalist. Don't
ask him to identify himself as one; you should already know.)
> Meends, while v important, are not the be-all and end-all
> in Hindustani music. Govindrao Tembe had the sanction, blessing
> and the ear of the big man himself (Alladiya Khan). Govindrao had
> extraordinary ability on the harmonium and a deep understanding
> of music. We have Vamanrao's account of him (check the archives,
> I have posted that piece). My father too has heard Tembe in
> performance. Neither suggested there was any absurdity in his
> playing.
No disrespect intended, once again. I guess I refer to two famous debates:
1) sarangi vs. harmonium as accompanying instrument
2) viability of santoor as a concert instrument
> Going back a little there is the example of Bhaiyya
> Ganpatrao, one of the pioneers of the thumri and thumri-anga
> on the harmonium whose influence the likes of Bismillah
> acknowledge in their own playing. He is a key figure in
> Indian music. Another example is of Rajabhaiyya Poochwale
> (as a homework assignment and find out more about him.
> Hint: he is related to Balasaheb, the same fella quoted in
> one of your posts). I have in the past mentioned P. Madhukar
> from Goa.
Thanks, I'll check up on it. By the way, I would like to point out that Dr.
Arawind Thatte is doing some remarkable work with the harmonium. In advance of
the Padma Talwalkar concert out here in L.A. last Saturday, we arranged for Dr.
Thatte to be interviewed on KPFK radio (Pacifica). The Thursday DJ of the
10am-1pm music show "Global Village" show, John Schneider, was very interested in
the special "tuning techniques" which Dr. Thatte has pioneered. He interviewed
Dr. Thatte along with Music Circle's co-founder and president, Harihar Rao, last
week.
I really enjoyed listening to the interview. Dr. Thatte has various solo
recordings out now. One of them contains a version of "jhala", the likes of
which I have never heard anyone come close to producing on the harmonium.
(Uh-oh, did I give myself away!?!) By the way, for disclosure, I'm an old fan of
organ music. Bach's toccatas and fugues delight me to no end. Sorry, off the
subject.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
"Rajan P. Parrikar" wrote:
> For some reason, in India if one is not a frequent
> (or successful) performer and happen to have a
> scholarly temper one is immediately labeled a "musicologist."
> Sometimes this takes on laughably absurd proportions as
> in the case of Bhatkhande. The man was a musician first
> and foremost, a vAggeyakAra (who by definition, is, among
> other things, a musician), a vidwAn and a shAstrakAra.
> For his scholarly work I much prefer the Indian term
> "shAstrakAra" to a "musicologist."
Good point. I'll let the person know who described them to me that way.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> we arranged for Dr. Thatte to be interviewed on KPFK radio (Pacifica). The
> Thursday DJ of the
> 10am-1pm music show "Global Village" show, John Schneider, was very interested in
> the special "tuning techniques" which Dr. Thatte has pioneered. He interviewed
> Dr. Thatte along with Music Circle's co-founder and president, Harihar Rao, last
> week.
In sum, Dr. Thatte explained that he tunes a harmonium differently based on which
vocalist he's accompanying, because not everyone decides where to place the notes
microtonally in the same way. He has a special way of adjusting pitch by altering
the (metal) reeds. I have not yet read the Vamanrao account; could you possibly
summarize any such technique which Govindrao Tembe used, if any?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib
some splendid stuff deleted ...
> Jha-sahab has rendered this composition (with glowing
> tributes to the lyric). I will make a clip, perhaps
> over the course of the weekend.
I'll look forward to the full text of this quality bandish. In mean
while best luck with the dreams. :)
best,
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib wrote:
> In mean while best luck with the dreams. :)
I would hope Rajan would not need "luck". Any thoughts, R?
By the way, the nose is missing on your smiley face. Did it get knocked
off as you were putting your foot in your mouth?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> In mean while best luck with the dreams. :)
Unfortunately you have to associate "luck" with these kinds of dreams,
rather than experiencing them yourself. I could venture a worldly
explanation, but I'll pass....
Oh well, books do provide some kind of pleasure I guess.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib wrote:
> In mean while best luck with the dreams. :)
The gas in this statement smells worse than the cloud from Chernobyl.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib wrote:
> I'll look forward to the full text of this quality bandish.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to take a distinctly *bookish*
approach to classical Indian music. I guess you would need to, since you
have in essence admitted to having no musical talent of your own (why else
would one not pick up one's beloved instrument for *20 years*).
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib wrote:
> I'll look forward to the full text of this quality bandish. In mean
> while best luck with the dreams. :)
Liked the UIUC SPICMACAY post, by the way ;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Ashok
>
>As an aside, Mansur often sang another old Agra favourite,
>a druta Yaman cheez, indulging in almost the same kind of
>play he did in the Nat Bihag cheez - "mukuTa par vAri jA'ooN
>nAgara Nanda." The first line in the original antarA is:
>"saba devana meN Krishna baDe haiN." As a lingAyat, Mansur
>would have none of that. He would nonchalently sing it as:
>"saba devana meN Mahadeva baDe haiN."
>
>
>
>r
That reminds me of a beautiful Kannada film song from
'paarvatii kalyaaNa' (circa 1967). naarada, the celestial
musician, visits parvataraaja's abode and sets out teach
music to the king's daughter, girijaa, still a young girl.
naarada sings
. vanamaaLE vaiku.nThapatE
and asks girijaa to repeat after him. She sings:
. ghanashuulE kailaasapatE
The entire song consists of delightful exchanges like that.
I haven't been able to get a recording. One exchange I
remember somewhat is approximately as follows:
naarada: cha.ndana charchita niila kaLEvar piitaambara dhaari
girijaa: bhasma vilEpita niila koraLiha charmaambara dhaari
(niila koraLiha: one with blue throat).
I think it was sung by Balamuralikrishna and S. Janaki.
The music director was GK Venkatesh.
Ashok
Jason Mainland
> That reminds me of a beautiful Kannada film song from
> 'paarvatii kalyaaNa' (circa 1967). naarada, the celestial
> musician, visits parvataraaja's abode and sets out teach
> music to the king's daughter, girijaa, still a young girl.
> naarada sings
and later..
> The entire song consists of delightful exchanges like that.
It appears other RMIC readers need to get "experienced" with a certain
kind of "delightful exchange" which has already been vividly described
by Dr. Parrikar.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
>
> How about "bairan bain" ? Is that Bihagda, too ?
How about "bird brain"? Do you know that one, too?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> I'll look forward to the full text of this quality bandish.
Don't worry, folks... this "quality" bandish will be available for $4.99
in Aisle 2 on RMIC soon!
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> On Tuesday, October 3rd, 2000, in the thread "Libel and Defamation in the
> Information Age", doogar rajib wrote to Jason Mainland:
>>you're trying to put yet more words in my mouth about a third party who
is no doubt just as
> >innocent as you fist two taampted victims. So what does that show?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and then
>read "your first two attempted victims."
>rest stands,
>cheers,
>rajib
First of all, I would like to say that I believe some kind of rare bandish
must have slipped out of the Esteemed Dr. Doogar's fingertips. I can think
of two other potential theories:
1) Dr. Doogar had too much chai that morning
2) Dr. Doogar had suddenly become very nervous
However, now that our good friend has become so *nice*, really *neat-o* to
have around, maybe he could give us his analysis of flame temperatures,
since he has such recent, rich experience in the subject and must have a
good supply of charcoal (speaking of the fossil fuel crisis). Oh, but he
must be using that for some other purposes, such as smudging freely on the
walls, etc. Doggie Doo, or dog excrement to be more precise, has been
known to be used in similar fashion by on occasion.
I wonder if people experienced in such refined arts have to write in a
disclaimer about whether they speak for themselves or not.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
P.S. No problem about the "attempted" part. I have found two ripe and
worthy ones.
Jason Mainland
> However, now that our good friend has become so *nice*, really *neat-o* to
> have around, maybe he could give us his analysis of flame temperatures
For those wondering about the impetus for my current flaming, which had a
particularly Irksome beginning, let me provide an additional piece of
information about myself for disclosure. You can draw your own conclusions.
At 18, I had two principal choices for college:
1) Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
2) US Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
My grandfather had been in the Navy.
I am sure my government could have used my body and mind to more effectively
and efficiently kill oh... Iraqis maybe? than what happened upon my going to
Dartmouth.... being so silly as to get interested in ICM, actually go to
India, etc...
People who have written on this newsgroup have absolutely NO idea how tiring
it is to be written off with a glance. I haven't even had long hair since
1997, but still, people, Indians and Americans alike, have ridiculed me. I am
not claiming to be a victim. I believe enough in what I do... don't need to
act so foolishly. Warren was kind enough to offer his sociology. People
hopefully have become more educated about the particular subject.
I have tried to provide some entertainment along the way, so bear with me...
;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
s_ka...@my-deja.com
rather than a tightly formalised raga. there are several variants and
ways of singing/handling it. infact one vairty includes both the
nishAds and both the madhyams! the composition you are referring to
is "Bairan Rain" rain means night in brajbhasha/hindi. Bairan, of
course, is the sexual competitor, i.e. the mistress. most west-coast
(THE INDIAN WEST COAST) singers either mispronounce these words or have
changed them and/ or have not bothered to learn the textual meaning
properly.
Bairan rain, in the form that MansUr sang it, is called Ek nishAd kA
bihAgrA. this version does not make use of komal nishAd at all. but it
does signify the bihAgrA ang with the phrase -- Ni Dha Pa Dha Ni-- Pa
Dha-- ma Pa-- Ga ma-------- Pa Ga (Re) Sa.
s.kalidas>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jason Mainland
doogar rajib wrote:
> some splendid stuff
Maybe you ought to rethink your definition of the above, Doogie? Don't
worry, it's safe for mama's boys... I promise.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Jason Mainland
> it evokes themes from Kalidasa, and Jayadeva, but it also
> evokes my grandmother singing a banni at her grand-daughter's wedding!
> So it becomes a way to think if only for a second about how themes get
> woven into a culture. Does this resonate with anyone else's
> experience? Or is it really that weird to think about all these things
> during a music concert?
One could say there are a lot of other weird things happening right now,
but...
I just wanted to see if anyone wanted to offer a Freudian interpretation?
Any takers?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Daniel Fuchs
tried emailing you, but it popped back... Send me an email with your
address..
Daniel
Daniel Fuchs
>
> doogar rajib wrote:
>
> > some splendid stuff
>
> Maybe you ought to rethink your definition of the above, Doogie? Don't
> worry, it's safe for mama's boys... I promise.
>
Jason, for God's sake, take one post at a time, think about it until you
have a complete answer. When you have an answer for one part, don't post
it yet. Think some more. Wait a while. Wait some more. When you come up
with a witty answer to the second sentence, write it down, wait again.
Post it when you're sure you're through all the way.
7 (seven) replies to one of RD's posts plus two replies to yourself over
a period of four hours) is a tad much, is it not? Two or three seems
your standard, seven definitely amounts to spamming the ng...
One post, one reply. Don't take it apart sentence by sentence into a
spearate reply. That is rather tiring... Who's supposed to read all
that? Safest way to get yourself killfiled or ignored soon.
Daniel
Jason Mainland
> >When Biswajit Roy Chowdhury plays Bihagra,
> >he places the sam on pancham, but quickly slides down to gandhar,
> >sometimes making it a quick P-M-G. Perhaps this is his way of dealing
> with fraternal rivalry?
And Rajan Parrikar responded:
> I have heard Biswajit Roy Chowdhury's Bihagda and I was
> wondering why he doesn't linger on the pancham long enough
> a la his guru Mansur.
He must not be a "papa's boy"! ;-)
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders
>sang Marwa with shuddh dhaivat. It's on Navras. This phrase is repeated
>in the bandish:
Marwa normally uses shuddh dha, so this is an unremarkable observation.
The Navras recording is excellent; I cannot recall a komal dha in that
rendition.
But I have heard the rumors about a komal-dhaivat Marwa from MM.
WS
Jason Mainland
Nani brought up the rumor about the komal-dha-wala. I mentioned the 10/24/81
MM recording with shuddh dha as illustration of the opposite. Good to bring
it up again. Can anyone independently confirm having heard the komal-dha
Marwa to which Nani originally referred?
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Rajan P. Parrikar
>>In a concert at the Tata Auditorium in Bombay on October 24, 1981, Mansur
>>sang Marwa with shuddh dhaivat. It's on Navras. This phrase is repeated
>>in the bandish:
>
>Marwa normally uses shuddh dha, so this is an unremarkable observation.
>The Navras recording is excellent; I cannot recall a komal dha in that
>rendition.
>But I have heard the rumors about a komal-dhaivat Marwa from MM.
Pooriya is sometimes sung with the komal dhaivat (instead
of the shudda dhaivat) and called "Din ki Pooriya." The same
trick could conceivably be run on Marwa. Whether Mallikarjun
actually did this is another matter.
Warm regards,
r
Jason Mainland
It would seem difficult to make lyrical sense with such a large odd interval -
komal dhaivat to sa. Especially since pancham is skipped. That tivra
ma/komal dha/sa combination seems strange even in the realm of the (scuse me
here) "exotic" ragas (with all those fancy intervals). At least Shree and
similar ones use the shuddh nishad as a stepping stone to sa. And Shree uses
pa too. I am very interested to see if anyone has actually heard a recording,
as a fellow ICM enthusiast has advised me to treat his posts as rabbit
pellets. As for Marwa, as I mentioned in the initial post the tivra
madhyam/shuddh dhaivat combination appears strongly in the bandish, with the
sam coinciding with dha (followed by a quick slide down to ma and back again).
Regards,
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders
>ma/komal dha/sa combination seems strange even in the realm of the (scuse
>me
>here) "exotic" ragas (with all those fancy intervals).
Jason...one word:
Hindol
> I am very interested to see if anyone has actually heard a recording,
of the komal Dha-wala Marwa? I have heard it described by two
listeners in Pune over the past 10 years. I imagine it exists. If
anyone could pull it off it would be Mallikarjan.
WS
Jason Mainland
Warren Senders wrote:
>
> Jason...one word:
>
> Hindol
Danyavad.
>
>
> > I am very interested to see if anyone has actually heard a recording,
>
> of the komal Dha-wala Marwa? I have heard it described by two
> listeners in Pune over the past 10 years. I imagine it exists. If
> anyone could pull it off it would be Mallikarjan.
>
> WS
Didn't mean to imply it couldn't be done. I think it would be more difficult
to prove what MM could *not* do.
Regards,
Jason Mainland
naniwadekar
>
One complaint that I have against Mansur is that when he started to
sing, he already seemed to be deep inside the raag. His last concert in
Delhi was probably for Spastics Society, on 25 Nov 1990. (Daniel, do
you have the recording?) Mansur sang a great great great bhairav. But
when he started to sing, I think he not just got tabla started, but
even gave his second sam before he stopped for his first breath. We
were knocked silly by this display of virtuosity.
But I prefer Kishori. When she comes to the concert, she is with you.
Not deep inside the raag. (She may be 30 to 90 minutes late in finally
condescending to be with you, but never mind.) Then she enters it. And
takes you to the hinterlands with her. Nobody sings half as well as
Kishori, when she feels like it.
When I expressed this reservation about Mansur to an old fellow, he
immediately quipped : But Mansur does have an auto-pilot.
- nani (dhananjay naniwadekar)
V N Muthu Kumar
>
> >That tivra
> >ma/komal dha/sa combination seems strange even in the realm of the (scuse
> >me
> >here) "exotic" ragas (with all those fancy intervals).
>
> Jason...one word:
>
> Hindol
Warren,
One question.
Hindol - tivra ma komal Dha?
muthu
Nur der BvB!
Warren Senders
>> >ma/komal dha/sa combination seems strange even in the realm of the (scuse
>> >me
>> >here) "exotic" ragas (with all those fancy intervals).
>>
>> Jason...one word:
>>
>> Hindol
>
>Warren,
>One question.
>Hindol - tivra ma komal Dha?
I know, I know! I got home and was wondering...what
seems wrong here? I can only plead that all this
Dha-talk got me disoriented, too. Mea culpa, mujhe
maf kijiye, etc.
WS
Warren Senders
>however, he has a wide palate of styles to choose from.
Is it because of his vocal influences that he
has a wide palate of styles?
WS
Jason Mainland
Well not only that (Mansur from 1983-1992, Poonchwale and Mutatkar in
the last few), but also his long initial training in pure instrumental
music. Right from the time he was a young boy, BRC learned sitar and
sarod from his father, Ranajit Roy Chowdhury, who played in Senia-Maihar
style. Later at 10 or so he spent a few years learning from Indranil
Bhattacharya. Then he was noticed by Amjad in Calcutta and taken to
Delhi to study with him there on a Hafiz Ali Khan scholarship from the
Sriram Bharatiya Kala Kendra. He studied with him for a few years. So
he has a total of over 10 years training in pure instrumental music. He
had also given concerts even before meeting Amjad (in fact this is how
he got noticed) and had also given many concerts before meeting Mansur.
By "instrumental music" I primarily mean both major lineages of sarod
playing - namely those of Ustad Allaudin Khan and Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan.
So when Biswajit Roy Chowdhury not only has a huge repertoire of ragas
and compositions, but when he's elaborating a raga he can choose to
incorporate influences from instrumental AND vocal gharanas. Over the
years he has created a distince baaj. Having played for over 35 years
and studied intensely with gurus for about 19-20 of those, he is the
best trained sarodiya of the younger generation today.
Regards,
Jason Mainland