Pt. Arun Kashalkar
Kaushal Rege
length recordings of his available? Does he come to the US for
concerts / baithaks?
Which brings me to a few related questions-would it be fair to say
that Agra gayaki is waning? While Pt. Kaikini and Lalit Rao come to
mind, I can't think of many others within the tradition. I can think
of some good vocalists who have a Gwalior base but borrow from the
Agra gharana, mainly arising from the Gajananbuwa stream.
The same appears to be true with the 'original' Jaipur-Atrauli-the
Jaipur-Atrauli of Kesarbai Kerkar, Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, and
Padmavati Shaligram. I understand that even these were stylistically
different between themselves but the popular 'modern' Jaipur vocalists
don't seem to fit the original mould.
And finally, why do lot of singers of today (with some exceptions)
appear to be some composite of Kirana-Gwalior, stylistically
indistinguishable in many cases particularly with respect to laya
treatment?
Apologies for sounding opinionated.
-k
Warren
>
> And finally, why do lot of singers of today (with some exceptions)
> appear to be some composite of Kirana-Gwalior, stylistically
> indistinguishable in many cases particularly with respect to laya
> treatment?
I would suggest that this is because of several factors:
Gwalior has by far the most widespread pedagogical
infrastructure due to Gandharva Mahavidyalaya. This
means that there is a huge stock of bandishes which
are in general circulation. Because Kirana is not a
bandish-based gayaki, there are fewer compositions
specifically associated with this gharana.
Because of its reputation as a rhythm-free style of
singing, Kirana is attractive to people who aren't drawn
to spending a lot of time solving the coordinative
problems involved in complex layakari. That is to say,
if you're rhythmically clueless (or just rhythmically, er,
challenged) it is easier to attempt Kirana style than any
other. Furthermore, the gharana itself has no widespread
institutionalized pedagogy (although plenty of individuals
run their own music schools, etc.).
So...the result is:
Gwalior bandishes and raags with a smattering of
Gwalior-style improvisations -- mixed with long stretches
of Kirana-style swar-lagaav. Sound familiar?
WS
Town Crier
> Apologies for sounding opinionated.
Oh, aren't we all? No need to be apologetic about it.
> Which brings me to a few related questions-would it be fair to say
> that Agra gayaki is waning?
What? With all the ITC millions behind Agra Gharana? I hope one of
the rmic-ers from ITC-SRA corrects you on that.
> The same appears to be true with the 'original' Jaipur-Atrauli-the
> Jaipur-Atrauli of Kesarbai Kerkar, Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, and
> Padmavati Shaligram. I understand that even these were stylistically
> different between themselves but the popular 'modern' Jaipur vocalists
> don't seem to fit the original mould.
Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande? Manjiri Asnare-Kelkar? Raghunandan
Palshikar?
DG
Chetan Vinchhi
> I heard the clips on his website and was impressed. Are any full-
> length recordings of his available? Does he come to the US for
> concerts / baithaks?
I received the following announcement:
July 8th, Sunday, 4.30 pm Sharp, $15/person
Pandit Arun Kashalkar
with Nitin Mitta on Tabla, Kedar Naphade on Harmonium
Venue: SimplyYoga at Kingston
4437 Route 27 (across Durga Mandir), Kingston , NJ 08528
I don't know if he is planning to perform in other regions as well. I
guess you can get in touch with IAPA (http://www.iapa-usa.org/) for
more information.
C
Kaushal Rege
review on this mehfil.
-k
Kaushal Rege
the effect of:
At the outset, I'd like to mention that I'm naming names primarily
since they serve as examples.
I find it very hard to accept that Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande is in the
Jaipur-Atrauli mould of Limayebuwa /Mansur/Kesarbai/Padmavati
Shaligram. Her choice of raga material, laya treatment, and
development do not align themselves with theirs. For example, while I
can't claim to have a huge collection of her renditions, I don't have
an aprachalita raga by her which is at least one defining aesthetic of
the gharana. I have only a couple of renditions by the other two and
can't really comment.
I found an interview by AB-D on the web in which she says, "We no
longer live in a world where we can insulate ourselves totally from
the dominant influences of our times emanating outside our gharana. It
is no longer possible to be either your Guru's replica, or a totally
original musician."
Gajananbuwa or Bhimsen were not tied by their gharanas and so,
crossing borders is certainly not a new phenomenon. Kumar doesn't
belong to our generation (not mine, unfortunately). As for the second
point, there are many clones in this generation and apparently few
with individualistic gayakis. It is possibly these 'dominant
influences' are both, the cause and effect of the kirana-gwalior
standard recipe we see in many vocalists today.
One contentious point is that the 'tipping point' of the Jaipur-
Atrauli gharana came with Kishori Amonkar. While she carved a niche
for herself with her genius, her followers seem to have discarded the
complexities associated with the gharana in the name of 'bhaav'. It
will be very instructive to me as a student if someone actually
critically evaluates how Jaipur some of the popular 'modern Jaipur'
artistes (as a friend put it mildly) really are. I must also mention
that I have heard some other Jaipur vocalists who seem to be better
representatives of the tradition.
And so a few follow up questions! Is 'sounding sweet' the defining
characteristic of bhaav or can one also find bhaav in Khadim Hussein
Khan's 'simple' layakari as well? That is, is there no bhaav
associated with laya?
Secondly, while learning with a gharana doyen is a necessary condition
for affiliation, is it a sufficient one? Can an artiste not follow
some or many defining characteristics of a gharana and still claim
affiliation? Or can this dismissed as 'gharana evolution'?
Bossk (R)
> of bhaav
NOOO!
http://www.agragharana.com/audio/Shafi%20Ahmed%20Khan%20-%20Jog.asf
http://members.tripod.com/ulhaskashalkar/audio/gjr1.rm
http://members.tripod.com/ulhaskashalkar/audio/gjr2.rm
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Thank you for the information. It would be good if someone posts a
> review on this mehfil.
I am no longer in NJ or else I would have attended the concert and
given a brief report. I wonder if Sanjeev is planning to attend.
Anybody else?
The IAPA site sometimes carries reviews of concerts organized by them.
C
cype...@gmail.com
These cyberspace gods include FBI and CIA.
On Jun 21, 6:28 pm, Kaushal Rege <kaushal.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thecyberspacegodsgobbled up my previous post which was something to
> > DG- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Town Crier
post.
On Jun 15, 6:58 am, Kaushal Rege <kaushal.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apologies for sounding opinionated.
I think we are expected to be opinionated here on rmic! I am yet to
meet one who isn't.
> Which brings me to a few related questions-would it be fair to say
> that Agra gayaki is waning?
If it is, all the ITC-SRA millions are wasted!
> The same appears to be true with the 'original' Jaipur-Atrauli-the
> Jaipur-Atrauli of Kesarbai Kerkar, Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, and
> Padmavati Shaligram. I understand that even these were stylistically
> different between themselves but the popular 'modern' Jaipur vocalists
> don't seem to fit the original mould.
Can you please elaborate? One issue you raised was the special Jaipur
gharana ragas. Here are some instances, collected with the help of
Google, where Ashwini has sung such ragas:
Bhoop-Nat http://www.sawf.org/Newedit/edit04302001/musicarts1.asp
Bihagada http://www.iapa-usa.org/recordings/IAPA_Recordings.xls
Kafi Kanada http://pmons.club.fr/Hinduvoc.pdf
Nayaki Kanada http://sarod.free.fr/listICM/ICM28-11-2005abrg.htm
Sukhiya Bilawal http://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/perf.html
If you look at her compositions in Raga-Rachananjali, those too seem
to be designed with Jaipur style in mind.
DG
arpi...@gmail.com
> I tried posting this earlier, and I don't know what happened to my
> post.
>
> On Jun 15, 6:58 am, Kaushal Rege <kaushal.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Apologies for sounding opinionated.
>
> I think we are expected to be opinionated here on rmic! I am yet to
> meet one who isn't.
>
> > Which brings me to a few related questions-would it be fair to say
> > that Agra gayaki is waning?
>
> If it is, all the ITC-SRA millions are wasted!
>
> > The same appears to be true with the 'original' Jaipur-Atrauli-the
> > Jaipur-Atrauli of Kesarbai Kerkar, Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, and
> > Padmavati Shaligram. I understand that even these were stylistically
> > different between themselves but the popular 'modern' Jaipur vocalists
> > don't seem to fit the original mould.
>
> Can you please elaborate? One issue you raised was the special Jaipur
> gharana ragas. Here are some instances, collected with the help of
> Google, where Ashwini has sung such ragas:
>
> Bhoop-Nat http://www.sawf.org/Newedit/edit04302001/musicarts1.asp
> Bihagada http://www.iapa-usa.org/recordings/IAPA_Recordings.xls
> Kafi Kanada http://pmons.club.fr/Hinduvoc.pdf
> Nayaki Kanada http://sarod.free.fr/listICM/ICM28-11-2005abrg.htm
>
> If you look at her compositions in Raga-Rachananjali, those too seem
> to be designed with Jaipur style in mind.
>
> DG
Without sounding too biased, can I just point out that ITC-SRA has
been the home of representatives of all established gharanas - so,
saying that it only backed Agra gharana is unfair.
Also, I have spoken to several performers who have 'mixed' styles and
have been told that 'what they sing is what the audience wants' !
While I cannot quite agree with that, since in my own way I have
performed in the Agra style & had people approving of it, I can merely
point out that market forces are too strongly in play & perhaps that
is why performers are unable to stick to an established style,
bringing in other influences merely because these have worked for
other people.
I think the basic problem is related to the increasing need for
performers to 'make it' - young people with great promise don't seem
to have the patience to wait till their styles have matured. Also,
once they start performing, they seem to get stuck - without adding or
spending time in thinking and doing some research to further develop
themselves. It takes a great deal of maturity & patience & hard work
to discover one's own interpretation of a raga . Not everyone has the
time or the inclination especially when there are so many more
opportunities for performing than there were 20 years ago.
Arpita Chatterjee
Town Crier
> Without sounding too biased, can I just point out that ITC-SRA has
> been the home of representatives of all established gharanas - so,
> saying that it only backed Agra gharana is unfair.
I don't know whether you are connected with ITC-SRA in any way, nor
what their official position is. They may claim whatever they like,
but 6 of the 12 "past gurus" listed on their site (http://
www.itcsra.org/sra_story/sra_story_guru/sra_story_guru_links/sra_story_guru_shiyshyaguru/sra_story_guru_shiyshyaguru_index.html)
belong to Agra Gharana. The other 6 are divided between Bhendibazar
(1), Jaipur (2), Kirana (1), and Rampur-Sahaswan (2). Gwalior Gharana
is not represented at all.
There is no need to go too deeply into the music of their "present
gurus" since many of them are ITC-SRA products anyway. I might just
mention in passing that Ulhas Kashalkar's most influential (for Ulhas'
style, that is) guru Pt. Gajananbua Joshi was a ganda-band shagird of
Ustad Vilayat Hussain Khan.
DG
Kaushal Rege
> I tried posting this earlier, and I don't know what happened to my
> post.
>
> On Jun 15, 6:58 am, Kaushal Rege <kaushal.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Apologies for sounding opinionated.
>
> I think we are expected to be opinionated here on rmic! I am yet to
> meet one who isn't.
>
> > Which brings me to a few related questions-would it be fair to say
> > that Agra gayaki is waning?
>
> If it is, all the ITC-SRA millions are wasted!
>
> > The same appears to be true with the 'original' Jaipur-Atrauli-the
> > Jaipur-Atrauli of Kesarbai Kerkar, Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, and
> > Padmavati Shaligram. I understand that even these were stylistically
> > different between themselves but the popular 'modern' Jaipur vocalists
> > don't seem to fit the original mould.
>
> Can you please elaborate? One issue you raised was the special Jaipur
> gharana ragas. Here are some instances, collected with the help of
> Google, where Ashwini has sung such ragas:
limited, if not totally unqualified, in analyzing Jaipur gayaki.
Nevertheless, I took a stab at it and here's what I propose might
provide some insight into what I think deviates 'modern Jaipur' from
the original gayaki.
I looked into the recordings of some of the Jaipur gayaks I have. For
some of AB-D's material, I looked up a couple of recordings on
MusicIndia Online and one recording was kindly sent to me by Bodas
kaka. For Gajananbuwa and Ulhas Kashalkar, I looked only at their
'Jaipur material'. I sat with a timer and measured the time each
singer took for an avartan of tritaal; each measurement was carried
out within the first five avartans. This, I thought, was a good
determination of the 'baseline laya' of each artist. All material in
the following cases is in Tritaal except one by Kesarbai Kerkar which
is in Tilwada. The one assumption is that none of these recordings is
'faster than what was actually sung' as can be the case in some older
recordings.
Mukul Shivputra (all Tritaal) and Amir Khan are included for only for
comparison of 'other styles'; I had to include a rendition in Jhoomra
for Amir Khan. Following is what I found:
Artist Raga Seconds /
Avartan Length of the Recording (min)
Mallikarjun Mansur
Multani-Ang Dhanashree 30 40
Lalita-Gauri 30 32
Jaitashree 26 37
Ramdasi Malhar 31 28
Yamani Bilawal 30 24
Nand 30 37
Bihagada 29 38
Vihang 30 30
Nat Kamod 20 26
Todi 40 37
Bhoop 41
Shree 40 39
Average 31.42s Seconds / Beat 1.96
Kesarbai Kerkar Lalita Gauri 38 44
Jaijaiwanti 38 37
Bageshree Bahar 21 30
Sampoorna Malkauns 26 23
Suha Sughrai (?) 18 23
Bihagada 32 36
Malkauns 19 30
Average 27.43s Seconds / Beat 1.71
Limayebuwa Jayat Kalyan 28 23
Bhimpalasi-Dhanashree 32 28
Komal-Dhaivat Barari 28 20
Adambari Kedar 25 19
Ramdasi Kanada 22 19
Average 27s Seconds / Beat 1.69
Vishwas Shirgaonkar Kafi Kanada 27 29
Average 27s Seconds / Beat 1.69
Kishori Amonkar Todi 36 62
Bhoop-Nat 41 29
Ahir-Bhairav 45 76
Alhaiya Bilawal 28 42
Basanti-Kedar 26 31
Bhimpalas 32 52
Devgiri Bilawal 34 38
Gaud Malhar 16 34
Jayat Kalyan 18 26
Lalit 37 37
Average 31.3s Seconds / Beat 1.96
Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande
Bhoop-Nat (from SAWF) 35 na
Yaman 37 27
Ahir-Bhairav 48 37
Bahaduri Todi 45 51
Bageshree 38
Bihag 52 34
Nand 39 25
Puriya Dhanashree 40 29
Average 41.75s Seconds / Beat 2.61
Gajananbuwa Hem Kalyan 31 25
Raisa Kanada 26 35
Average 28.5s Seconds / Beat 1.78
Ulhas Kashalkar Jayat Kalyan 39 37
Shuddha-Nat 36 44
Sampoorna Malkauns 39 38
Lalita Gauri 40 44
Kafi Kanada 32 33
Average 37.20s Seconds / Beat 2.33
Mukul Shivputra Bageshree 9 28
Bihagada 8 27
Gauri 36 25
Jog 8 33
Todi 6 22
Average 13.40 Seconds / Beat 0.84 0.48 (without the Gauri)
Amir Khan Hem Kalyan 66 18
Hindol Kalyan 58 33
Average 62s Seconds / Beat 4.13
A few observations /comments:
I think a big component of what defines gayaki or a vocalist's gayan
is the choice of laya and taal (to state the obvious). For example, a
vilambit ektaal along the lines of Amir Khan lends to very different
development compared to madhyalaya tritaal that Mukul Shivputra uses
(at least in these recordings).
Limayebuwa, Mallikarjun Mansur, Kesarbai Kerkar, and Gajananbuwa are
all around 30s/16 beats. So is Kishori Amonkar but I've noticed that
her recent recordings are longer / avartan from her earlier ones. Pt.
Mallikarjun Mansur has a bimodal distribution; in the above
recordings, the 'big' ragas (e.g Todi, Shree) were more spread out
(40s/cycle) but the 'Jaipur material' is right around the 30s / cycle.
Limayebuwa is right on in almost every case! Vishwas Shirgaonkar also
lands exactly at his guru's (Limayebuwa's) place - I just had one
recording of his for this analysis and certainly need more. Ulhas
Kashalkar uses a slower tempo than the traditional Jaipur vocalists.
Which brings me to AB-D. Based on the above material, her average laya
is roughly 42s/ tritaal cycle. In addition, as I'd mentioned before,
her raga material mainly consists of more generic ragas. Slower laya,
I would argue, lends itself to broader strokes in development as
opposed to development in tandem with the laya, presumably due to
breath-control restraints. It is arguably easier to develop
complicated and more 'sustained' (taan) patterns when the laya is
accelerated as opposed to when the laya is slower. Her choice of
slower laya (among other attributes), I would argue, makes her singing
Kiranaesque and therefore, significantly diluted from the original
Jaipur gayaki.
There are many other points that can be employed to contrast her
development and 'arsenal' with that of Mansur's, (for example), but
that might be for some other time.
I would appreciate any feedback you might have.
Best regards,
Kaushal
> Bhoop-Nat http://www.sawf.org/Newedit/edit04302001/musicarts1.asp
> Bihagada http://www.iapa-usa.org/recordings/IAPA_Recordings.xls
> Kafi Kanada http://pmons.club.fr/Hinduvoc.pdf
> Nayaki Kanada http://sarod.free.fr/listICM/ICM28-11-2005abrg.htm
> Sukhiya Bilawalhttp://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/perf.html
Kaushal Rege
> Can you please elaborate? One issue you raised was the special Jaipur
> gharana ragas. Here are some instances, collected with the help of
> Google, where Ashwini has sung such ragas:
Sorry about Hem Kalyan being Jaipur material in my previous post. I
used it nevertheless in the analysis I'm not sure if one gharana can
claim Kafi Kanada, Raisa Kanada, or Hindol-Kalyan...
> Bhoop-Nat http://www.sawf.org/Newedit/edit04302001/musicarts1.asp
> Bihagada http://www.iapa-usa.org/recordings/IAPA_Recordings.xls
> Kafi Kanada http://pmons.club.fr/Hinduvoc.pdf
> Nayaki Kanada http://sarod.free.fr/listICM/ICM28-11-2005abrg.htm
> Sukhiya Bilawalhttp://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/perf.html
Thanks for the list. Along similar lines, is Bihagada an exclusive
Jaipur specialty?
> If you look at her compositions in Raga-Rachananjali, those too seem
> to be designed with Jaipur style in mind.
Thank you for the resource. It'll certainly be interesting to read
this.
-k
>
> DG
dn.usenet
"Kaushal Rege" wrote :
>
> Along similar lines, is Bihagada an exclusive
> Jaipur specialty?
>
Manik Verma had sung Bihagda for an LP release.
I don't know whom she learnt it from but some
Jaipur material was taught to Hirabai Barodekar
(who was Maniktai's guru)
or Saraswati Rane in 1930s. Vamanrao Deshpande
has narrated a story where he was accused by
Alladiya Khan of passing on Jaipur raags to
Mane family because of V's association with the
family (which he continued to maintain even after
stopping Kirana taleem from Sureshbabu Mane).
It turned out that one of Sureshbabu's sisters was
learning under some other Jaipur singer. Hirabai
had won respect from her elders. Vazebuwa was
her fan; Vishnu Digambar had feted her while she
was still a teenager; even Kesarbai, not much given
to praising other musicians, was fond of her.
Kesarbai was Abdul Karim's student for a short
while. Later she was appreciative of Bhimsen's
singing from Kirana.
Shaila Datar, Manik Verma's disciple, has sung
Khokar which is close to Bihagada. She says she
was inspired by Kesarbai's Khokar recital.
Jitendra Abhisheki has composed a natyageet in
Bihagada : 'mii maanaapamaanaa nach maanito' ,
for the naatak : Yayati-Devyani.
- dn
Manohar
research. Her Guru was the same who composed the Bandish Mandarwa me.
It is in Bihagda.
MB
Town Crier
> Well it seems DV or dn (whoever he is) ...
Oh, I do believe you two are old friends!
A little earlier, Kaushal Rege posted some very interesting laya
statistics. It is a good beginning, but laya is a function of singer
as well as bandish. (for example, hear "tradition in laya" on
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~hvs/Veena/Language.html.) To continue on
these lines, one can collect renderings of the same bandishes by
several of Gajananbua's disciples for instance (Padma T, Shubhada P,
Brothers Kashalkar, ...). Also, one can compare pre- and post- ITC-
SRA Ulhas Kashalkar (they are two separate artists for the purpose of
this analysis) singing the same bandish. One is likely to discover
rules of thumb such as "everybody sings bandish x much faster than
they sing bandish y" "and artist x sings any bandish much faster than
artist y sings the same bandish".
DG
dn.usenet
"Town Crier" wrote :
>
> > Well it seems DV or dn (whoever he is) ...
>
> Oh, I do believe you two are old friends!
>
Yes, Bodas Mama is an old friend. He should remember
old friends and sign some of his posts as 'Mama'. Still,
it is very cute when he signs his posts as 'Kaka'. He is a
real sweetie but sometimes he is wrong. For example,
Mrs Khandekar, who released a CD about Govindrao
Tembe recently, is Tembe's great-granddaughter, not
'grand daughter'. And he also wants us to believe that
Sumati Tikekar is Arati Ankalikar-Tikekar's mother.
But he later apologised that it was 'mea calpa-na'.
Everything he does is very very cute. (Keep it up,
B-Kak... oops, B-Mama.) His calpana-shakti
is really nice and very enjoyable.
dn.usenet
"Town Crier" wrote :
>
> > Without sounding too biased, can I just point out that ITC-SRA has
> > been the home of representatives of all established gharanas - so,
> > saying that it only backed Agra gharana is unfair.
>
> but 6 of the 12 "past gurus" listed on their site (http://
>
www.itcsra.org/sra_story/sra_story_guru/sra_story_guru_links/sra_story_guru_
shiyshyaguru/sra_story_guru_shiyshyaguru_index.html)
> belong to Agra Gharana.
>
If 50% of their past gurus are from Agra and the other
half a spread of other gharanas, you are rubbishing your
own case yourself, and the original claim that 'it has
backed other gharanas as well' is quite correct.
That Ulhas Kashalkar's guru had one Agra Ustad among
his many gurus is irrelevant because it is not as if it
was a major factor in ITC-SRA taking Kashalkar
on board.
dn.usenet
"Kaushal Rege" wrote :
>
> is Bihagada an exclusive Jaipur specialty?
>
Check Rajan Parrikar's SAWF article on Bihagda. It
mentions two compositions from sources not affiliated
(exclusively) with Jaipur : Master Krishnarao and
'Gunidas' Jagannath-buwa Purohit. In Krishna Maastar's
case, his guru Bhaskarbuwa Bakhale provides the link
to Jaipur, but these people had eclectic tastes, and
learned or grasped whatever they liked from
a variety of sources.
- dn
Manohar
In spite of his pearls of wishdom Dhenu baba is still avoiding to tell
us about the bandish and her guru. Well again we will have to wait.
Perhaps DV ( or H d P) is waiting for his master's voice.
Check Dhenubaba's posts. : Ram rangi rangile is not a Natya Sangit.
Bhimsen was born ( reborn perhaps) on Sharad Pornima. About his posts
regarding Sindeh Khan: less said is better.
MB
On Jun 27, 8:50 pm, Manohar <manohar.bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > - dn- Hide quoted text -
Abhay
> Well it seems DV or dn (whoever he is) certainly needs to do more
> research. Her Guru was the same who composed the Bandish Mandarwa me.
> It is in Bihagda.
Manik Verma learnt from both Gunidas and Sureshbabu Mane; I also
recollect hearing that she had some training from Hirabai. IIRC, her
Kirana taalim came first.
Warm regards,
Abhay
Manohar
Yes that is correct. Jagannathbua used to spend 10 days each at
Kolhapur, Pune and Mumbai. Maniktai learnt from bua almost till he
passed away. Malti Pande was also her Guru Bhagini those days.
Prabhudev Sardar was also learning from Bua around the same time.
Manohar