Good recordings by Jasraj
Debanik
Looking for suggestion on good recordings (CD/Tape) by Jasraj.
I tried to listen to him on several occasions (recording as
well as concerts). I did not like him very much despite his
general popularity. May be I listened to the wrong recordings,
may be he was not feeling well on the day of concert.
Can someone suggest some recordings where he (Jasraj) is at his
best? I would like to try them before removing him from my personal
list of musicians .
Sajjad Khaliq
: Looking for suggestion on good recordings (CD/Tape) by Jasraj.
Before you delete Pt Jasraj from your list of preferred musicians, listen
to his Hussaini Kanada CD. This is a live concert recording produced by
Zakir Hussain's Moment! Records company.
I was very impressed indeed with this performance. Nothing else by Jasraj,
before and after the Hussaini Kanada CD has had a very favourable
impression on me. Superb tabla support was provided in this performance by
Pt Swapan Chaudhuri.
You must listen to this one.
--
Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
sramab...@pcc.lucent.com
aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
> Debanik (dc...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>
> : Can someone suggest some recordings where he (Jasraj) is at his
> : best? I would like to try them before removing him from my personal
> : list of musicians .
>
> Before you delete Pt Jasraj from your list of preferred musicians, listen
> to his Hussaini Kanada CD. This is a live concert recording produced by
> Zakir Hussain's Moment! Records company.
>
> I was very impressed indeed with this performance. Nothing else by Jasraj,
> before and after the Hussaini Kanada CD has had a very favourable
> impression on me. Superb tabla support was provided in this performance by
> Pt Swapan Chaudhuri.
>
Hmmm...I'm actually of a different opinion. I didn't particularly enjoy the
Hussaini. The Shahaana Kaanada madhyalaya bandish in the middle was okay,
though I had heard a better (though much shorter) live rendition as part of a
"Kaanada-family-EXPRESS" presentation. I don't remember the Bahar that was
sung as the drut bandish, but that it was in ektaal. I actually think Swapan
Chaudhuri on tabla was the highlight of this CD.
Here are some recommendations from someone who has gone through a "Jasraj
phase" (my personal opinion is that he is very capable of imaginative and
profound music - these days I don't know where it is).
LP with Darbari, Kedar, and Meera Bhajan - tabla by Nizamuddin Khan
LP with Shuddh Saarang and Bhimpalasi - tabla by Zakir Hussain
These are older recordings, the voice sounds fresher, though the style is
essentially the same. Presentation is most definitely tidier and not subject
to the gimmicks that seem to abound these days.
I may be alone, but I enjoyed his Marwa and Bageshri from the Music Today
series also.
Try these and see what you think. Though I do believe Pandit Jasraj has been
vastly overhyped, I think his talent is not negligible.
Sanjeev
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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jawa...@hotmail.com
sramab...@pcc.lucent.com wrote:
>
> Here are some recommendations from someone who has gone through a "Jasraj
> phase" (my personal opinion is that he is very capable of imaginative and
> profound music - these days I don't know where it is).
>
> LP with Darbari, Kedar, and Meera Bhajan - tabla by Nizamuddin Khan
> LP with Shuddh Saarang and Bhimpalasi - tabla by Zakir Hussain
>
Yes, these two recordings are definitely excellent.
Especially his Kedar and Shuddha Sarang are just out of this world.
And the most important thing is that he has sung this in a very
simple and very straight forward manner.
> These are older recordings, the voice sounds fresher, though the style is
> essentially the same. Presentation is most definitely tidier and not subject
> to the gimmicks that seem to abound these days.
>
> I may be alone, but I enjoyed his Marwa and Bageshri from the Music Today
> series also.
>
I love this Bageshri. Also on the other side of the same release are
Bhatiyaar and Madhamad Sarang which also are very nice. Especially the
Bhatiyaar.
> Try these and see what you think. Though I do believe Pandit Jasraj has been
> vastly overhyped, I think his talent is not negligible.
>
He is definitely one of the best vocalists of today. Yes, there are
a lot of things that he does during his concerts these days that are
not acceptable. But even today (well, it has been a couple of years
that I heard him live) he can perform exceptionally well.
I remember his rendition of Bihag in a live concert that I heard at
Bangalore. He had sung it only for 40 minutes or so... But it was
so powerful that I will remember it for my life...
I think for some reason on this news group, people consider it
to be fashionable to talk ill of Jasraj (on exactly the same lines
as some others who just GO TO Jasraj or Zakir Hussain concerts because
that's the IN THING!).
Just a few days back I heard Prabha Atre sing Bihag... Her definition
of a Bihag rendition is to sing `N S G M G S; `N S G M P m G M G S and
nothing else for about half an hour then sing the drut bandish in a half
hearted manner with all the notes below madhya saptak shadja and all the
notes above the madhya saptak pancham sung in a "pseudo" voice! And it
is considered scholarly to do so! Of course isn't it a novelty to perform
bihag for one hour singing just the asthayees of the bandishes and never
touching the antaras?
Even the first minute of Jasraj's Bihag had more musical content than
this one hour nonsense....
Anyway, let me not get carried away.
Abhinav
jawa...@hotmail.com
Puriya
Nat Bhairav
Shuddha Bairadi
Hamsadhvani
Recent venus recording of Shankara
Music Today recording of Bairagi Bhairav
Well, that's the stuff that came of the hat just now.
Icarus
are as under:
Maata Kalika - Adana
Ram ko sumir kar - Darbaari
Baba topey baras rahim - Miyan ki Malhaar
Is nagri mein raaj karo - Miyan ki Todi
Chalo Sakhi sautan key ghar jaihein - Gujri Todi
Apno Birano Mainkon dekhi - Jayanti Todi
Sakal ban laagi rahi - Shudh Sarang
Ja-Ja re apne mandirwa - Bhimpalasi
Dekho mori rang mein bhigoyi sari - Kedar
Arey jagdhar - Marwa
Chalo Chalo ri aali mandirwa - Din ka Puriya
Aari jira-hani - Bairagi Bhairav
Saghan Ban phooli rey - Malkauns
Khelat basant nisa piya sung jaagi - Basant
- Mishra
jawa...@hotmail.com wrote in message <749el6$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Amit Chatterjee
two short compositions inPuriya and Adana which I consider to be very
good. One of his early recordings in Bhimpalasi is very good too. These
are old recordings. Among the new recordings, raag Bairagi (Music India
CD with Darbari Kanada and Bairagi) has a slow start (typical of Jasraj)
but it turns out quite well. I did not like the live Hussaini Kanada
recording too much.
Regards,
Amit
jawa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Some more very good recordings of Jasraj (all old HMV LPs):
>
> Puriya
> Nat Bhairav
> Shuddha Bairadi
> Hamsadhvani
>
> Recent venus recording of Shankara
> Music Today recording of Bairagi Bhairav
>
> Well, that's the stuff that came of the hat just now.
>
> Abhinav
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
************************************************************************
Amit Chatterjee
as...@mindspring.com
amit_ch...@hotmail.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~asav
************************************************************************
Rajan P. Parrikar
"Icarus" wrote:
Re: Jasraj recs
>Dekho mori rang mein bhigoyi sari - Kedar
Isn't that in Raga Bihag? It is a beautiful composition.
r
Icarus
Rajan P. Parrikar wrote in message <74et89$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
You are right..I had some other composition in mind when I wrote that one. -
Mishra
shrir...@hotmail.com
1. Bilaskhani todi and Gorakh kalyan (HMV)
2. Bhinna shadj (I forget the label)
3. Old recording of Ahir bhairav and Darbari (oriental records) with Zakir on
tabla.
4. Todi series (CBS)
5. Jugalbandi with Dr. Balamuralikrishna - raga sohini. (AVM records)
I have heard him present a wonderful kedar in Dec 1994 at Madras Music
Academy. I would rate it as one of the most memorable concerts that I've
attended!
Regards,
Shriram S.
In article <366A9E9F...@mindspring.com>,
WARVIJ
A correct assessment IMO. Jasraj's improvisations tend
toward the obvious, as in (pick a raag, any raag):
S-, NS-, NSR-, NSRG-, NSRGM-, NSRGMP-, NSRGMPD-, NSRGMPDN-,
NSRGMPDN-- N-- N-- s---!
followed by the divinely inspired
s! N! D! P! M! G! R! S!
(followed by a chorus of "wah! wah!" from the folks up front,
testifying to the allure of the obvious in contemporary
classical music).
>although in terms of technical perfection,
>he can safely be placed in the top
>bracket.
In purely technical terms this is surely correct, at least as far
as it pertains to the earlier Jasraj. Voice placement, resonance,
support and flexibility are all exemplary.
>His voice is his prime asset and he uses it well.
"Uses it well" in the technical sense. But the more important
qualities of khyal presentation are often elided in his presentation.
To my way of thinking, intellectually resonant and imaginative
treatment of the melodic material is surely a prime virtue in
khyal. A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
Warren Senders
jawa...@hotmail.com
war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) wrote:
> >...I have never found his raagdari satisfactory
>
> A correct assessment IMO. Jasraj's improvisations tend
> toward the obvious, as in (pick a raag, any raag):
>
> S-, NS-, NSR-, NSRG-, NSRGM-, NSRGMP-, NSRGMPD-, NSRGMPDN-,
> NSRGMPDN-- N-- N-- s---!
>
> followed by the divinely inspired
>
> s! N! D! P! M! G! R! S!
>
First, I don't agree much with this generalization.
Second, I don't think that being "obvious" or "default"
downgrades the music. In fact even people like Bhimsen
Joshi, or Mallikarjun Mansoor for that matter, tend to
sing in the "default" (or "obvious") manner most of the
times. And that's fine with me (I don't know about you
though), as long as the overall effect of the music is good.
Only absolutely unique artists like Kumar Gandharva had
the ability to have something new and creative in every
presentation. And even with this he never compromised on
the ranjakatwa aspect.
Or if you want some "non-obvious" stuff, listen to Gulam
Ali's gazzals. His voice is capable of producing absolutely
random notes in a random order. And he keeps doing it most
of the times. Obviously there are no "obvious" patterns there!!
Looks like this means great music from your definition!
A.Pavan
>Ali's gazzals. His voice is capable of producing absolutely
>random notes in a random order. And he keeps doing it most
>of the times. Obviously there are no "obvious" patterns there!!
>Looks like this means great music from your definition!
While I love Ghulam Ali, I'll have to disagree with you on the above
comment. Ghulam Ali's so called "improvizational material" in my opinion
is what I would call "well rehearsed" or as we call it in India
"by heart" stuff. For example, his sargam in the middle of Ghazals like
"Hangama ..." or "Kal Chaundvin Ki Raat Thi ..." or numerous
others have always been the same whenever I have heard him (thrice
live). His taankari does have some variations from time to time
but the sargam layakari which he seems to pull off to great effect
is actually well rehearsed stuff.
Pavan
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A. Pavan, Ph.D
Senior Research Scientist Voice mail: (612)951-7142
Honeywell Technology Center Fax : (612)951-7438
3660 Technology Dr., Lab : (612)951-7606
Mail Stop MN65-2600
Minneapolis, MN 55418 email : pa...@htc.honeywell.com
Home: 545 W Sandhurst Dr Apt 316, Roseville, MN 55113
Tel : (651)487-1966
chakr...@my-dejanews.com
> First, I don't agree much with this generalization.
This is not a crude generalization, but an example of Warren's
great sense of humour. It is quite true that Pt. Jasraj has
often ignored the challan of a raga by
1. Using very predictable yet unorderly patterns of "barhat" (if you would
call it that). 2. not paying any attention to the vadi note of a raga.
> Second, I don't think that being "obvious" or "default"
> downgrades the music. In fact even people like Bhimsen
> Joshi, or Mallikarjun Mansoor for that matter, tend to
> sing in the "default" (or "obvious") manner most of the
> times.
Neither Bhimsenji nor Pt. Mansur ever minced raagdari like
Mr. J.... at least, the Raga was somewhat respected in the
"most default" of their singing... I doubt if JAsraj can ever
maintain Kukuv Bilawal for a whole hour like Mansur could...
> And that's fine with me (I don't know about you
> though), as long as the overall effect of the music is good.
When Pt. Jasraj was the real Jasraj (mid 70s)... there was an
aesthetic appeal to his music.
> Only absolutely unique artists like Kumar Gandharva had
> the ability to have something new and creative in every
> presentation. And even with this he never compromised on
> the ranjakatwa aspect.
Kumarji and Jasraj don't can't be compared. However, there have
been formidable masters like Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Sharafat
Hussein Khan etc.. in the past who were quite "unique" too. In
today's world, glamour, fame and adulation has led many great
artists to behave like children -- to crave for more -- and they
think they can get away with whatever they want.
The RESULT:
Lots being dished out as "Classical Music" and people buying it -
some out of sheer ignorance.
> Or if you want some "non-obvious" stuff, listen to Gulam
> Ali's gazzals. His voice is capable of producing absolutely
> random notes in a random order. And he keeps doing it most
> of the times. Obviously there are no "obvious" patterns there!!
> Looks like this means great music from your definition!
What about Ustad Mohammad Dilshad Khan? Maturity comes with
taleem and riyaz. The more you post, the more you grow -- this
seems to be the philosophy of this newsgroup (my apologies to
the REAL people like R, W etc for this sweeping generalization).
Regards,
A
WARVIJ
> Ali's gazzals. His voice is capable of producing absolutely
> random notes in a random order. And he keeps doing it most
> of the times. Obviously there are no "obvious" patterns there!!
No. If you want randomness, listen to John Cage. As Pavan pointed
out, Ghulam Ali's improvisations are well-rehearsed. Just because
a particular listener cannot perceive an obvious order in what
a musician sings does not mean the singer's notes are random. This is a
small-order application of the ethnocentric fallacy: "because I don't
understand what's going on, it must not be understandable at all."
I *do* understand Jasraj's singing, and for the most part I find it
embarrassingly simplistic. Further, I regard singing in such a manner
as embodying a degree of condescenscion to the listening audience.
My response to *that* is somewhat less charitable, and will not
be printed here. This is a family newsgroup.
WS
jawa...@hotmail.com
chakr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> 1. Using very predictable yet unorderly patterns of "barhat" (if you would
> call it that). 2. not paying any attention to the vadi note of a raga.
>
So are you claiming that Jasraj's rendition of ragas is
technically incorrect or incomplete? And that too always?
I would appreciate an example.
>
> Neither Bhimsenji nor Pt. Mansur ever minced raagdari like
> Mr. J.... at least, the Raga was somewhat respected in the
> "most default" of their singing... I doubt if JAsraj can ever
> maintain Kukuv Bilawal for a whole hour like Mansur could...
>
> > And that's fine with me (I don't know about you
> > though), as long as the overall effect of the music is good.
>
> When Pt. Jasraj was the real Jasraj (mid 70s)... there was an
> aesthetic appeal to his music.
>
Here let me talk with respect to a concrete example.
Consider the recording of raga Puria by Bhimsen Joshi
(Vilambit: tari re ghara, Drut: ghari ye gina) and
by Jasraj (Madhyalaya Jhaptal: ab taro bina kauna), both
old HMV LPs. Both Bhimsen and Jasraj are at their best in
these recordings. I feel that both these are some of the all
time great renditions of Puria.
Now Bhimsen Joshi's recording is technically superb,
his taans are just out of this world. While comparing
Dinanath's taans and that of an ordinary Natyasangeet
artist Pu. La. Deshpande's character Raosaheb says,
"tyanchyasarakhi ek taan gheun dakhava ani mulvyadh
hota ki nahi te bagha". This description could be
never truer about Bhimsen Joshi's taans during this
rendition.
Compared to the technicalities of Bhimsen's recording,
Jasraj's rendition is definitely more straight forward
and simple ("Obvious" if you want it that way!). But
never technically incorrect or incomplete. However
this rendition immediately creates the picture of a
pandit lighting the lamp in a temple after the sunset
and praying while singing this song! Jasraj not only
sings a good Puria but also presents the mood of that
raga in a great style. This is something quite lacking
in Bhimsen's rendition, just the way in which the
technical complexity is lacking in Jasraj's rendition.
As I have said earlier, I like both these renditions
immensely for their own strengths. Very few artists
have this strength that Jasraj has of bringing out
the correct emotions of a raga. Hence I feel that he
is a musician of great abilities. And I feel that this
quality is as important as the technical complexity of
rendering the raga.
>
> Kumarji and Jasraj don't can't be compared.
No such comparison intended. I was just saying that
being technically novel as well as paying full attention
to the emotions of a raga is managed well only by all
time greats like Kumar Gandharva.
>
> The RESULT:
>
> Lots being dished out as "Classical Music" and people buying it -
> some out of sheer ignorance.
>
Not true. Classical music must have emotions as well as technical
correctness and completeness. And I think A LOT OF (Please note
that I am not saying ALL) Jasraj's music is fit for this category.
>
> What about Ustad Mohammad Dilshad Khan?
>
Sure! He demonstrates being "random" and "non-obvious"
pretty well.
I have more to say about W's and other people's postings...
Will have to wait due to lack of time.
Abhinav
Sajjad Khaliq
: A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
: is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
: Warren Senders
Excellently put! With this in mind, I'd put Ustad Fateh Ali Khan as one of
the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
> : is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
>
>
> the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
You seem to have interpreted the above quote to imply that
voice quality is important. Read it again. It clearly supports
the exact opposite notion. That voice quality is NOT important.
That a goat could be a better vocalist than a singer with the
voice of an angel if it had better knowledge of raagdari, better
swara and laya control etc.
As an aside, I am highly curious to know who you would put at
the bottom of your vocalist pile on the basis of voice quality.
Just fill in the blank - "I'd put -------- as one of the worst
vocalists for having such a terrible voice!"
C
Sajjad Chowdhry
aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
>WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
>: is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
>
>: Warren Senders
>
>Excellently put! With this in mind, I'd put Ustad Fateh Ali Khan as one of
>the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
>
>--
>Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
>
I second this sentiment on Ustad Fateh Ali Khan Shb, and third, and fourth..............
Sajjad
Ashok
>
>Sajjad Khaliq wrote:
>>
>> WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
>>
>> : A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
>> : is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
>>
>>
>> the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
>
>
>voice quality is important. Read it again. It clearly supports
>the exact opposite notion. That voice quality is NOT important.
>That a goat could be a better vocalist than a singer with the
>voice of an angel if it had better knowledge of raagdari, better
>swara and laya control etc.
Perhaps Sajjad Khaliq properly understood what Warren said, in
which case, according to him (Sajjad), Ustah Fateh Ali Khan
has an angel's voice and sings like an untrained goat!
>C
Ashok
WARVIJ
>> : is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
>>
>>
>> Excellently put! With this in mind, I'd put Ustad Fateh Ali Khan as one of
>> the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
>
>
>You seem to have interpreted the above quote to imply that
>voice quality is important. Read it again. It clearly supports
>the exact opposite notion. That voice quality is NOT important.
>That a goat could be a better vocalist than a singer with the
>voice of an angel if it had better knowledge of raagdari, better
>swara and laya control etc.
>Perhaps Sajjad Khaliq properly understood what Warren said, in
>which case, according to him (Sajjad), Ustah Fateh Ali Khan
>has an angel's voice and sings like an untrained goat!
Or perhaps Sajjad Khaliq believes that calligraphic
fluency is the defining hallmark of a great poet?
WS
Sajjad Khaliq
: You seem to have interpreted the above quote to imply that
: voice quality is important. Read it again. It clearly supports
: the exact opposite notion. That voice quality is NOT important.
: That a goat could be a better vocalist than a singer with the
: voice of an angel if it had better knowledge of raagdari, better
: swara and laya control etc.
A quote is like but two sides of a coin: depends on which side you look
at.
I fully understood what the quote really meant, and my remark was more of
rhetorical to get further debate (which it has).
I think you have to view this from an angle that we are talking about art.
Calligraphy has great value and appeal in itself, regardless of the
words or sentences.
One can admire calligraphy without any knowledge or understanding of the
language, and many, many people do, as to them it's an art form.
To say the quality or appeal of the voice is of little or no importance is
denying the reality of the matter. Namely, that is the first thing of
which appeals to the listener, which leads to appreciation of the music
and ragdaari etc.
BTW, can you suggest some goat recordings that I may listen to? Perhaps a
Maroo Baaaaag recording!!!!!!
rpen...@hotmail.com
if we look at hindustani music as a 'performing art'
a good quality of voice and control is very important.
it is a very basic building block for a performer.
someone with a lot of "higher knowledge" such as raagdaari,
rare raags, anecdotes, geneology... and a bad voice
can be a good teacher/critic/composer/source of reference.
like they say "those who can do, do. those who can't, teach,
and those who can't teach, manage"
I'd rather listen to someone with good voice and ability to create
an all encompassing mood of a raga than someone playing
complex combinatorial patterns on a midi keyboard.
but that's just my world view for now.
regards
Ravi
In article <19981210192938...@ng27.aol.com>,
war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) wrote:
> >> : A good quality of voice, as Coomaraswamy once remarked,
> >> : is as important to a singer as good handwriting is to a poet.
> >>
> >>
> >> Excellently put! With this in mind, I'd put Ustad Fateh Ali Khan as one of
> >> the top vocalists for having such a good voice!
> >
> >
> >You seem to have interpreted the above quote to imply that
> >voice quality is important. Read it again. It clearly supports
> >the exact opposite notion. That voice quality is NOT important.
> >That a goat could be a better vocalist than a singer with the
> >voice of an angel if it had better knowledge of raagdari, better
> >swara and laya control etc.
>
> >Perhaps Sajjad Khaliq properly understood what Warren said, in
> >which case, according to him (Sajjad), Ustah Fateh Ali Khan
> >has an angel's voice and sings like an untrained goat!
>
> Or perhaps Sajjad Khaliq believes that calligraphic
> fluency is the defining hallmark of a great poet?
>
> WS
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
jawa...@hotmail.com
thoughts.
Abhinav
In article <74revn$orr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
rpen...@hotmail.com wrote:
> hi,
> if we look at hindustani music as a 'performing art'
> a good quality of voice and control is very important.
> it is a very basic building block for a performer.
>
> someone with a lot of "higher knowledge" such as raagdaari,
> rare raags, anecdotes, geneology... and a bad voice
> can be a good teacher/critic/composer/source of reference.
>
> like they say "those who can do, do. those who can't, teach,
> and those who can't teach, manage"
>
> I'd rather listen to someone with good voice and ability to create
> an all encompassing mood of a raga than someone playing
> complex combinatorial patterns on a midi keyboard.
> but that's just my world view for now.
>
> regards
> Ravi
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
sramab...@pcc.lucent.com
pa...@cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) wrote:
>
> While I love Ghulam Ali, I'll have to disagree with you on the above
> comment. Ghulam Ali's so called "improvizational material" in my opinion
> is what I would call "well rehearsed" or as we call it in India
> "by heart" stuff. For example, his sargam in the middle of Ghazals like
> "Hangama ..." or "Kal Chaundvin Ki Raat Thi ..." or numerous
> others have always been the same whenever I have heard him (thrice
> live). His taankari does have some variations from time to time
> but the sargam layakari which he seems to pull off to great effect
> is actually well rehearsed stuff.
Ghulam Ali seems to be fairly humble about this thing. I believe he himself
has on more than one occasion mentioned this - that his compositions and
improvs, while technically not straightforward, do come out well because of
careful practice, though people mistakenly wholly attribute it to his talent
(this is not in any way to undermine his talent, BTW).
On the other hand, I'm sure that the more practice you do of intricate
patterns, if you bend or change them a little on the spot, it's more likely
to come out right (your brain/voice neural network or whatever gets trained
to react accordingly).
Sanjeev
--
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
WARVIJ
>if we look at hindustani music as a 'performing art'
>a good quality of voice and control is very important.
>it is a very basic building block for a performer.
Ravi --
"Good quality of voice" in the Hindustani context
is typically used to refer to accuracy of intonation.
I think Amir Khan's voice is exquisite, for example,
even though it is somewhat raspy by many standards.
Further, Ravi, as you and I were discussing recently,
Faiyaaz Khan was considered by many listeners to
have a grating voice. Nevertheless, I find his renditions
quite moving and beautiful (and certainly more attractive
than Pt. J's). Control per se means nothing without a motivating
artistic conception -- technique is irrelevant without
an aesthetic goal towards which the artist strives.
>someone with a lot of "higher knowledge" such as raagdaari,
>rare raags, anecdotes, geneology... and a bad voice
>can be a good teacher/critic/composer/source of reference.
Yes and no. A teacher with a badly managed vocal mechanism
will transmit these habits to his/her students. If you listen
to Shruti Sadolikar's renditions, you can tell which material
she learned from her father (who sang fluidly and easily) and
which she learned from Gulabbhai Jasdanwalla (whose voice-
production was raspy and constricted) -- simply by listening
to the quality of her voice production.
>like they say "those who can do, do. those who can't, teach,
>and those who can't teach, manage"
I wish we would eschew these cliches, which
have little or no basis in fact. Perhaps you could
say "those who *understand* what they do, teach; those who
do *without* understanding, simply do." Those who wish to be
full-time performers will devote their lives to this; those
who seek a balance between the mehfil and other activities
will devote their lives to this balance. Many full-time
performers are poor teachers with little sense of the
strategies or concepts they use fluidly. Your supposition about
managers is, in my experience, far too kind -- but that is
scarcely germane.
Jasraj, of course, has dozens if not hundreds of students,
many of whom receive taleem onstage. All of them sing
in an exact copy of his style.
>I'd rather listen to someone with good voice and ability to create
>an all encompassing mood of a raga than someone playing
>complex combinatorial patterns on a midi keyboard.
So? I'd rather listen to somebody with a bad voice and
a good sense of raag-bhav than somebody playing
patterns on a keyboard. Jasraj has a lovely voice but
a generally uninteresting conception of raag-mood; how
does he rank against a keyboard pattern-player?
I'd rather listen to any of my vocal
students, even the besur ones (don't worry, you're
not one of them), than someone playing patterns on a keyboard.
Actually, I'd rather listen to my guruji sing. But if I can't
do that, maybe I'll just practice instead.
Warren
rpen...@hotmail.com
how does it support your notion that voice quality is not important?
Lets try if this works -
a guy is dumb (cannot speak anything).
can he be a good singer even if he 'understands' a lot of music stuff.
regards
Ravi
WARVIJ wrote:
>
> Ravi Pendkar writes:
>
> >if we look at hindustani music as a 'performing art'
> >a good quality of voice and control is very important.
> >it is a very basic building block for a performer.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Rajan P. Parrikar
>>...I have never found his raagdari satisfactory
>A correct assessment IMO.
I have a difference of opinion. Early Jasraj showed promise and
much of his pre-1980 output (which is what I choose to remember
him by) is backed by good rAgadhAri, fluid imagination and
control in delivery. I was never too enthused by his tAnabAzi
(palpably off in the tAra saptak forays).
Then he became the darling of the Indian 'middle-class'
since he embodied and reflected their super moral values and
epitomised their ideal of the 'good' boy. A 'bad' boy is someone
who openly smokes and drinks, occasionally swears, and is seen
sharing a paan with the town's whores. The 'good' boy, on the
other hand, is exactly like the 'bad' boy in all these respects;
his 'goodness' lies in the singular fact that only the 'bad'
boy has been found out.
At any rate, the past 15 years or so of Jassie's music is largely
rubbish. Trumpery. He was richly gifted, a natural, but he chose
the easy way out. My verdict on Jassie the toad: a musician manque.
Warm regards,
r
WARVIJ
>how does it support your notion that voice quality is not important?
>Lets try if this works -
>a guy is dumb (cannot speak anything).
>can he be a good singer even if he 'understands' a lot of music stuff.
Ravi, if a singer has a pretty voice but not too much in the
brains/imagination department, I'm unlikely to admire him/her/it.
On the other hand, a singer with a less-than-pretty voice who
is endowed with a good mind and an active imagination will
engage me.
Any problem with that? I don't say voice quality (in the sense
of "having a beautiful tone") is NOT
important, I say that it is LESS important than
having something interesting to sing. A singer with
something interesting and engaging to say will develop
the voice necessary to do it.
A singer with a lovely voice at the outset is much more
inclined to coast on their beauty of tone, and to ignore
the serious discipline of taleem and riaz.
Warren
Ashok
>
>Very well put, Ravi. I fully agree with your
>thoughts.
>
>Abhinav
Thoughts? Where are they?! Such enthusiastic endorsement
for such illogic!
>In article <74revn$orr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> rpen...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> hi,
>> if we look at hindustani music as a 'performing art'
>> a good quality of voice and control is very important.
>> it is a very basic building block for a performer.
>> someone with a lot of "higher knowledge" such as raagdaari,
>> rare raags, anecdotes, geneology... and a bad voice
>> can be a good teacher/critic/composer/source of reference.
Warren and others are trying to distinguish between, on the
one hand, a prettiness of voice, which they consider aestheticall
irrelevant, and other aspects of voice, which they judge to be
so relevant. The author's list here is an unthought out mishmash:
raagdaari tossed in with anecdotes and genealogy?
>>
>> like they say "those who can do, do. those who can't, teach,
>> and those who can't teach, manage"
Those who can think, write original stuff. Those who can't,
write such trite stuff.
>> I'd rather listen to someone with good voice and ability to create
>> an all encompassing mood of a raga than someone playing
>> complex combinatorial patterns on a midi keyboard.
>> but that's just my world view for now.
>>
>> regards
>> Ravi
This comparison
(good voice and ability ...) versus
(complex patterns on a keyboard)
dosn't illuminate the discussion on the thread. It brings in
factors, such as one's reactions to keyboard sound, which are
strong, but external to the issue. And after appropriating
good voice and ability, what's left to argue?!
Would you rather listen to someone with a pretty voice and
low ability than someine with not-at-all pleasant voice and
high ability?
Ashok
apha...@hotmail.com
Kulkarni at a concert at Poona. The lady was amazing: her voice is by no means
sweet or pretty, and the years have not been kind to it, but her rendition was
simply outstanding! Her raagadarii, her phenomenal (but "un-showy") command
over laya, her purity of sur - marvellous! I would much rather listen to her
than to the host of syrupy-voiced under-performers who abound on the concert
scene today.
Just a thought, though: had Dhondutai's voice quality been better, would her
music have been that much more enjoyable?
Warm regards
Abhay P
In article <19981211182706...@ng141.aol.com>,
war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) wrote:
> Ravi, if a singer has a pretty voice but not too much in the
> brains/imagination department, I'm unlikely to admire him/her/it.
>
> On the other hand, a singer with a less-than-pretty voice who
> is endowed with a good mind and an active imagination will
> engage me.
>
> Any problem with that? I don't say voice quality (in the sense
> of "having a beautiful tone") is NOT
> important, I say that it is LESS important than
> having something interesting to sing. A singer with
> something interesting and engaging to say will develop
> the voice necessary to do it.
>
> A singer with a lovely voice at the outset is much more
> inclined to coast on their beauty of tone, and to ignore
> the serious discipline of taleem and riaz.
>
> Warren
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
rpen...@hotmail.com
>
> a singer with a less-than-pretty voice who
> is endowed with a good mind and an active imagination will
> engage me.
> Any problem with that?
sure, I would toss out the tape.
> I don't say voice quality (in the sense
> of "having a beautiful tone") is NOT
> important, I say that it is LESS important than
> having something interesting to sing.
you have been saying quite the opposite.
> A singer with
> something interesting and engaging to say will develop
> the voice necessary to do it.
and in the meanwhile, there's other people to listen to. don't have to record
this one.
> A singer with a lovely voice at the outset is much more
> inclined to coast on their beauty of tone, and to ignore
> the serious discipline of taleem and riaz.
depends...
I understand your contempt for someone you assume you can 'understand',
and does not jump up to your bar of required imagination.
well then, I guess, Jasraj is a musician and not a musician's musician.
or, is he? or maybe, he came back after being there?
have a nice week
Ravi
Rajan P. Parrikar
I am completely en rapport with Shri Warren Senders apropos
of the points he has made on voice quality, musical content et al.
I urge him to attach that lovely Ives quote he used to have in
his .sig to all his subsequent postings. Too many upstarts mistake
prettiness of voice and throwing it all over the place (read
mindless tAns) for great music and resist with indignance any attempts
to safely steer them out of their musical puberty.
I was recently asked to comment on Mr. Jasraj's young Maharashtrian
student who allegedly has a 'great voice' (read, a copy of J's voice)
and is showing promise (read, can copy J's vocal mannerisms). Shri Wolfgang
Pauli's memorable reaction, in another context, came to mind as
I listened to the poor bastard - "so young and already so unknown."
Warm regards,
r
atw...@concentric.net
Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
<754bn1$e...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
>
> No matter that this pecking order is not so
> transparent to me ; no matter that Pauli's
> quote is not out of any "English classics"; no matter
Just as a matter of pedantry, since Pauli was a native German speaker and
spent only six years of his life in English-speaking countries, the chances
of his having said this in English at all are fairly remote.
BTW, it would appear that Pauli did not like sharing the limelight. The
exclusion principle at work, no doubt.
--Toby White
atw...@concentric.net
Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
<754dv5$f...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
> : BTW, it would appear that Pauli did not like sharing the limelight.
The
> : exclusion principle at work, no doubt.
>
> Hey, good one !
I merely saw the opportunity and ... lepton it.
--Toby White
Srinivasd
>I am completely en rapport with Shri Warren Senders
>I urge him to attach that lovely Ives quote
>Shri Wolfgang
>Pauli's memorable reaction, in another context, came to mind as
>I listened to the poor bastard - "so young and already so unknown."
Any reasonable person who has read your articles in RMIC over the years should
infer that your articles on ICM are often buttressed with borrowed quotes from
english classics in an ever so transparent pecking order.
Raghu Seshadri
: ><parr...@colorado.edu
No matter that this pecking order is not so
transparent to me ; no matter that Pauli's
quote is not out of any "English classics"; no matter
that unless you are quoting yourself, you HAVE to
borrow them -
the thing that is really peculiar about your
post is that you are actually objecting to something
that renders writing more interesting - apt and
appealing quotations ! It is not easy; you have to
be a person with a penchant for wide and deep
reading; you have to have a good memory; you have
to have the sense and judgment to see how apt it
is. If you have all these abilities, you render
your writing more ornate and jolly to read with
these quotes. If you object to them , you object to
99% of good books.
Rajan's prose is a delight to read; it sparkles;
it manages to educate without being didactic;
it is vigorous in marshalling its arguments; it
is witty; not the least of its virtues are his
splendid quotations which embellish his point,
while providing the ardent reader with a window
into a wider world beyond the narrow issue under
his powerful microscope.
RS
Raghu Seshadri
: Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
: <754bn1$e...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
: >
: > No matter that this pecking order is not so
: > transparent to me ; no matter that Pauli's
: > quote is not out of any "English classics"; no matter
: spent only six years of his life in English-speaking countries, the chances
: of his having said this in English at all are fairly remote.
Exactly. And even if he did, it didn't make it into
any 'english classic'. (Not that quoting from an english
classic is a bad thing; quite the contrary.)
: BTW, it would appear that Pauli did not like sharing the limelight. The
: exclusion principle at work, no doubt.
Hey, good one !
RS
Srinivasd
>post is that you are actually objecting to something
>that renders writing more interesting - apt and
>appealing quotations !
You are rather strange in believing writing about music/musicians is puristic.
I'd wait for the day when musings about any kind of music are in the Times top
10 or contend for the Booker's prize (note I could care less).
>If you object to them , you object to
>99% of good books.
Thank you, the good books I know have nothing to do with music or Jasraj.
<sparkling water commercial snipped>
Here are two cents to this thread (if there has been a disorder before this
finger-pointing began): musicians "borrow", "quote", "imitate", "mimic" and
show the whole nine yards of flattery all humans share while performing before
they move onto something they intrinsically believe in (I could've quoted lines
to justify these from a musician's biography but thought ...well otherwise); so
the voice ("swara pEtika" in the throat) issue of musicians has to be dealt
with due concern for biological limits and sociological etiquette. BTW, to
balance this thread one can compare the playing styles of non-vocalists and ask
questions like: do strong "farm hands" make better percussionists; do fine
"painter" fingers lend to playing strings ( yada yada. :) Why, we can even ask
is emphasis on art education of youth all for the sake of preserving elderly
artistes? ;-)
Srinivasd
>atw...@concentric.net wrote:
>: Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in article
>: <754bn1$e...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
>: >
>: > No matter that this pecking order is not so
>: > transparent to me ; no matter that Pauli's
>: > quote is not out of any "English classics"; no matter
My earlier posting was not alluding to Wolfgang Pauli as a classicist of arts
(even if he were to like that from spin doctors;-).
>: Just as a matter of pedantry, since Pauli was a native German speaker and
>: spent only six years of his life in English-speaking countries, the chances
>: of his having said this in English at all are fairly remote.
But that goes against the critic d'jour.
>: BTW, it would appear that Pauli did not like sharing the limelight. The
>: exclusion principle at work, no doubt.
Such confidence with Schroedinger.
Some valid questions for the earlier thread-weavers are: "Faced with one last
performance, would a singer rather project good voice (like good manners) than
content; would a sishya rather imitate guru than be oneself; or in general a
musician be anything but what one is created for and endowed with?"
Raghu Seshadri
-Why do you have to be the village idiot who knows about everything but
-doesn't know the context?
There is NO context under which using quotations
to illustrate one's point would be a bad thing.
So context doesn't matter in this case.
-There was no mention in my article about "the above
-laundry list is english classics."
To be fair to you, there wasn't, I agree.
But then you have to take your own advice and
be sensitive to context. Rajan comes up with a
quote, and you launch a polemic against using
quotes. Any reasonable reader would think your
reference to quotes applies to the one in front
of you when you wrote that. Your denial is
specious.
-If you understood in musical terms what
-your suck-ass is writing about Jasraj and his protege imitating Jasraj, while
-suck-ass himself quoting from english texts (B.Shaw once for heaven's sake),
-then you would've at least asked the suck-ass to be reasonable in expressing
-his contempt with all that profanity before turning your ignorance at me.
What did you say about profanity ? Your wonderful
writing itself is so full of it that you don't
get to pontificate about it, Mr Pot.
I think I am dealing with a guy a few bricks shy
of a load here. I don't think using quotes from
Shaw or whoever is unreasonable, so why would
I ask Rajan to be 'reasonable' and not use quotes ?
Makes no sense.
And what is ignorant in what I said ?
What we have is a chicken and egg problem.
Did unreasoning rage make Mr Pot a nut,
or does his nuttiness cause his mad rages ?
RS
Srinivasd
>What did you say about profanity ? Your wonderful
>writing itself is so full of it that you don't
>get to pontificate about it, Mr Pot.
You can explain what you are responding to later on. But, who on earth thinks
your presence in RMIC has ever anything to do with music but everything about a
show off? If you have found a single shoe, go to Disney and you may meet your
princess. Not here. RMIC is about music. If you need to suck asses you have
better venues. And before you call me anything but Srinivasd, I implore your
parents to rename you as "RAGHU the SNAKE MOUNTAIN" because that is not only a
literal translation of your names but a suitable warning for anyone who thinks
your sucking their ass makes for a healthy treat.
Raghu Seshadri
-You can explain what you are responding to later on. But, who on earth thinks
-your presence in RMIC has ever anything to do with music but everything about a
-show off? If you have found a single shoe, go to Disney and you may meet your
-princess. Not here. RMIC is about music. If you need to suck asses you have
-better venues. And before you call me anything but Srinivasd, I implore your
-parents to rename you as "RAGHU the SNAKE MOUNTAIN" because that is not only a
-literal translation of your names but a suitable warning for anyone who thinks
-your sucking their ass makes for a healthy treat.
Does anyone know what this drivel means ?
RS
Raghu Seshadri
-You posted my email on RMIC and responded to it of course true to your village
-idiocy. Best laugh I ever had.
What a deprived life that must be, if this is
the best laugh you ever had :-)
RS
Srinivasd
You must make such enquiries more often in other threads as well before posting
crap from your head (also the answer to your question). I think it is
reasonable to let you have the last word on this delicate matter. ;-) Before I
go for tonight, Jasraj rocks!! BTW, an ass is a lovely thing. Why would you
call god's creation profane?
aho...@my-dejanews.com
phenomenon. I fell in love with "the voice" around '82 for a very good reason
- the Shuddha SArang,BhImpalAs,Shuddha KedAr,DarbArI recordings that
attracted me to Jasraj remain some of his best ever (I like his Gorakh
KalyAn, Nat Bhairav, Shuddha BhairAdI recordings too). So I started attending
PJ's concerts and was deeply disappointed by the shallow, insincere,
gimmick-filled performances aimed at the "Wow" crowd (instead of the "wAh"
crowd). PJ's on-stage tuitions for disciples, his undisciplined rAgvistAr,
his predictable sargam (rgg RGG rg, pnn PNN pn etc), his rainbow tAns (mandra
to tAr and back) that sounded more like a dog freshly run over by a car, and
many other gimmicks turned me off PJ completely and made me suspect that PJ
takes his out-of-India audiences for a ride (though much of the audience
LOVES it) since he thinks they don't know much.
So I listened to PJ at the SGM (SawAI Gandharva Mahotsav) in Pune and was
pleasantly surprised to find that he can indeed sing sincerely and very well.
The presence of BhImsenjI in the knowledgeable audience had a lot to do with
it, too. In fact, his RAmkalI at the just-concluded SGM was one of the 5 best
performances. (Although I think PJ's performances should be called "PJ and
his Orchestra" as he believes that the more the merrier on the stage. 2
tablAs, 3 tAnpurAs, a violin and a harmonium are really not necessary.)
My overall opinion of PJ is similar to that of Warren and Rajan. I also agree
with Rajan's assessment of PJ's young Maharashtrian clone. PJ's disciples
learn the Re:$ exchange rate before they learn music and overexpose
themselves to the overseas audiences before they even turn 30. It's usually
downhill after that.
IMHO, Vijay Koparkar (J Abhisheki's and Vasantrao Deshpande's disciple),
Vijay Sardeshmukh (Kumar Gandharva's), Rashid Khan, Shaunak Abhisheki (J
Abhisheki's son and disciple) and Jayteerth Mewundi, all between 20-40 in
age, are all distinctly superior to PJ's disciple. Having heard all of them
within the past one year, I can certainly say this. In fact, Shaunak was
easily the best 'find' and the best performer at the SGM last week. He had
not impressed me when he visited US in '89 (I think) but has progressed
tremendously.
Srinivasd
>the best laugh you ever had :-)
While you are depraved for all times, a real writer/etymologist might infer
that 'deprived' has a common root with 'private' to mean 'lack of privacy'
among other things in this information age.
Debanik
>
>Namashkar.
>
>I am completely en rapport with Shri Warren Senders apropos
>of the points he has made on voice quality, musical content et al.
>I urge him to attach that lovely Ives quote he used to have in
>his .sig to all his subsequent postings. Too many upstarts mistake
>prettiness of voice and throwing it all over the place (read
>mindless tAns) for great music and resist with indignance any attempts
>to safely steer them out of their musical puberty.
>
>I was recently asked to comment on Mr. Jasraj's young Maharashtrian
>student who allegedly has a 'great voice' (read, a copy of J's voice)
>Pauli's memorable reaction, in another context, came to mind as
>I listened to the poor bastard - "so young and already so unknown."
>
>
>
>r
I second r's opinion except for the reference to the dubious identity of
the young student' parents.
His music does not seem to have any content at all.
Even his voice, although considered to be great by many, lacks any power.
Probably good for singing lullaby.
Vivek R. Datar
>Namashkar.
>I am completely en rapport with Shri Warren Senders apropos
>of the points he has made on voice quality, musical content et al.
>I urge him to attach that lovely Ives quote he used to have in
>his .sig to all his subsequent postings. Too many upstarts mistake
>prettiness of voice and throwing it all over the place (read
>mindless tAns) for great music and resist with indignance any attempts
>to safely steer them out of their musical puberty.
>I was recently asked to comment on Mr. Jasraj's young Maharashtrian
>student who allegedly has a 'great voice' (read, a copy of J's voice)
>and is showing promise (read, can copy J's vocal mannerisms). Shri Wolfgang
>Pauli's memorable reaction, in another context, came to mind as
>I listened to the poor bastard - "so young and already so unknown."
>Warm regards,
This whole thread reminds me of a famous Marathi drama
"katyAr kALajAt ghusli". In the musical drama the main
character (who is a classical vocalist) says that at
first you just learn singing, then when you are young
"gala bajata hai", later (and way later) "gala gAne lagata hai".
In essense this means that at young age you tend
to ride on your voice quality, doing tAnbAzi. As you
mature you realize more and more virues of singing.
The same drama also makes another interesting point; it
says that the "gala" is right in the between your brain
and your heart. You need both for singing.
-VIvek
>r
ravig...@gmail.com
> Hello everyone,
>
> Looking for suggestion on good recordings (CD/Tape) by Jasraj.
>
> I tried to listen to him on several occasions (recording as
> well as concerts). I did not like him very much despite his
> general popularity. May be I listened to the wrong recordings,
> may be he was not feeling well on the day of concert.
>
> Can someone suggest some recordings where he (Jasraj) is at his
> best? I would like to try them before removing him from my personal
> list of musicians .
Try some of his earlier commercial recordings of Bihag, Puriya Kalyan, Gorakh Kalyan
Havanur
after 14 years?
Havanur
jj
recordings from PJ!
Jay