Ustad Alladiya Khansaheb question....
S44218
Its Sandip here. I had a question about Ustad Alladiya Khansaheb... I was on
the verge of picking up a new album of Padmavati Shaligram who is supposed to
be one of the few living disciples of Alladiya Khansaheb. I was wondering about
who are some of Alladiya Khan's disciples and among them, who are living.
Kesaribai Kerkar,Moghubai Kurdikar, and Padmavati Shaligram are the three that
I can think of which Moghubai and Padmavati are the only ones alive...
Thanks in advance...
Sandip.
AAkolkar
According to my information, Dhondutai Kulkarni received some training from
Alladiya Khan.
Ajit
Icarus
obviously his disciple. - Mishra
S44218 wrote in message <199808221326...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
TANSEN8106
I want to know whether any recordings exist of Ustad Allahdiya Khansahib. I've
only heard rumours that a couple of collectors have them.
I wonder if any of u guys can give any info on this matter.
Regards
Tansen8106
aas...@my-dejanews.com
I have a Bhairavi by him; but then again I doubt it is he since Jaipur-Atrauli
doesn't do sargam. Sounds more like a mere Patiali to me.
Piya ke milan ki ...
--
"Do not sing yesterday's Yaman"
Swami Sachabananand
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TANSEN8106
Greetings to all:
aas wrote:
>I have a Bhairavi by him; but then again I doubt it is he since
>Jaipur-Atrauli
>doesn't do sargam. Sounds more like a mere Patiali to me.
R u sure its not Khansahib Allah Dinoo Khan of Patiala? I have a Bhairvin,
Aiman, Megh and Suha Kanada by him. Probably the vocalist is Allah Dinoo
Khansahib as any recording existing of Allahdiya Khansahib is a legendary
mystery....
Regards
Mian Tansen
WARVIJ
>I doubt it is he since Jaipur-Atrauli
>doesn't do sargam. Sounds more like a mere Patiali to me.
There was a Patialawala Alladiya Khan, whose pen name
was 'Meherban.' But to the best of my knowledge, none
of his recordings are available.
I think the recording to which you refer is of Alladino
Khan. There is also a Megh available. The presentation
is unmistakeably Patiala.
Warren
WARVIJ
>legendary mystery....
Azizuddin Khan, Alladiya's grandson, claims to have a cylinder
recording of the Master. But he has no cylinder player. Anyone
who wishes to test it will have to bring a cylinder player
to Kohlapur.
Problem one: getting a cylinder player of the right sort
(there were several styles of cylinders back in the old
days);
Problem two: getting it to Kohlapur;
Problem three: getting it to Azizuddin's residence (trivial
after the first two, of course).
After that, who knows? Wouldn't it be grand to hear the
original voice of Jaipur-Atrauli?
On the other hand, wouldn't it be irritating to get all the
way there and discover that it was an old British military
march with all the identifying labels lost to time?
The 78s of Bhaskarbuwa also reside in a
haze of mystery. Here, the recordings are known to exist,
but the remaining copies are of such poor quality that no
music can be discerned inside the thick patina of surface
noise.
Warren
TANSEN8106
Warvij wrote:
>The 78s of Bhaskarbuwa also reside in a
>haze of mystery. Here, the recordings are known to exist,
>but the remaining copies are of such poor quality that no
>music can be discerned inside the thick patina of surface
>noise.
I only know of one person who has a 78 of Pt. Bhaskarbuwa Bakhle, its got raag
Jaunpuri on it. Shall I give his name? Better not as he'll get extremely angry!
All I can say that he does take part in this newsgroup.
Regards
Tansen8106
TANSEN8106
Warvij wrote:
>There was a Patialawala Alladiya Khan, whose pen name
>was 'Meherban.' But to the best of my knowledge, none
>of his recordings are available.
No recordings exist of Khansahib Meherbaan Khan. He was a proficient composer
for the Patiala school. Composed many famous bandishes such as the evergreen
"Taan Kaptaan" in raag Adana and also "Khush Ray Sanam Mera" in raag Puriya
Dhanasari. The majroty of his compositions are dedicated to his Ustad, Gernail
Fateh Ali Khansahib (Alia-Fattu fame).
>I think the recording to which you refer is of Alladino
>Khan. There is also a Megh available. The presentation
>is unmistakeably Patiala.
Other recordings widely available of Allahdino Khansahib are Aiman, Suha Kanada
and Puriya.
Regards
Tansen8106
Vivek R. Datar
>Hi to all music lovers
>Warvij wrote:
>>The 78s of Bhaskarbuwa also reside in a
>>haze of mystery. Here, the recordings are known to exist,
>>but the remaining copies are of such poor quality that no
>>music can be discerned inside the thick patina of surface
>>noise.
>I only know of one person who has a 78 of Pt. Bhaskarbuwa Bakhle, its got raag
>Jaunpuri on it. Shall I give his name? Better not as he'll get extremely angry!
>All I can say that he does take part in this newsgroup.
You should at least tell him that what he possesses is invaluable and
make backup copies.
-Vivek
>Regards
>Tansen8106
Ramesh Waghmare
>>I only know of one person who has a 78 of Pt. Bhaskarbuwa Bakhle, its got raag
>>Jaunpuri on it. Shall I give his name? Better not as he'll get extremely angry!
>>All I can say that he does take part in this newsgroup.
>
>You should at least tell him that what he possesses is invaluable and
>make backup copies.
>
>-Vivek
>
This comes as a big surprise to me. In Marathi, there is a
profile of Bhaskarbuva Bakhale by noted author, musician and
actor, P.L. Deshpande, wherein P.L. states that not even a
single 78 RPM recording of the master is available. In
Marathi, an authoritative biography of Bhaskarbuva by Shailaja
Datar was published a few years ago. I think Mrs. Datar happens
to be his grand-daughter or at least some direct descendant. I
don't know what the biography says about his available
recordings. I myself would give anything to hear even a Sa by
this legendry master.
TANSEN8106
Ramesh wrote
>This comes as a big surprise to me. In Marathi, there is a
>profile of Bhaskarbuva Bakhale by noted author, musician and
>actor, P.L. Deshpande, wherein P.L. states that not even a
>single 78 RPM recording of the master is available. In
>Marathi, an authoritative biography of Bhaskarbuva by Shailaja
>Datar was published a few years ago. I think Mrs. Datar happens
>to be his grand-daughter or at least some direct descendant. I
>don't know what the biography says about his available
>recordings. I myself would give anything to hear even a Sa by
>this legendry master.
Ramesh the problem is that most of these so called collectors are so tight
fisted that they don't even let a person listen to such gems.
I would say it would be easy to get a rare astahi from an ustad rather than get
recordings from such people. The guy who has the Pt Bhaskarbuwa recording has
probably every published recording of every Indian Classical artiste, as well
as many private ones.
He is so mean what can I say!!! He should generously give all these recordings
to people so that students and fans can benefit from them. Anyway may god show
such people the true path..
Regards
Tansen8106
Mkhelkar
Just got back from India last week and missed quite a bit of action here on
rmic, and catching up now.
Tansen's claim about some collector having Bhaskar Buwa Bhakle's recording is
both true and false. It is widely claimed that Buwa made three 78s at some
point in time. A handful of people in Bombay and Pune claimed to have the
recordings. However, these recordings which are on a cassette now have two
problems with authentication. No one seems to have the original 78s any where
in India or outside. More importantly, when you play these recordings there is
nothing but just buzzing sound (some of it like bumble bee), if you play these
recordings through a noise reduction system, then there is nothing but the
hissing sound of the tape! I heard it personally a couple of years back at
Shailtai's home and she told in great length all the efforts that she put in to
locate any of Buwa's audible recordings without any success.
I agree with Waren-ji's assessment about Alladiya Khan's recordings totally.
So, if some one collector or not, claims to have these, it is either a complete
hoax or is under total illusion. Incidently, few people in India are really
angry and upset about some foreign collectors trying to publish their
collection on a commercial basis, and exploit the loose copyright laws of
India. Does any one know about this?
Two years ago, when I was in Bombay, I heard that couple of North Americans
have the largest collection outside India. I don't know the names though.
TANSEN8106
Hi to all music lovers
MKhelkar wrote:
>I agree with Waren-ji's assessment about Alladiya Khan's recordings totally.
>So, if some one collector or not, claims to have these, it is either a
>complete
>hoax or is under total illusion. Incidently, few people in India are really
>angry and upset about some foreign collectors trying to publish their
>collection on a commercial basis, and exploit the loose copyright laws of
>India. Does any one know about this?
MKhelkar jee, I have heard worst stories. I have heard some collectors outside
of India have visited archives in Calcutta and Bombay, "borrowed" the masters
and destroyed them so that they can have the only copy!!! Its pretty pathetic
really.
Regards
Tansen8106
WARVIJ
>I have heard some collectors outside
>of India have visited archives in Calcutta and
>Bombay, "borrowed" the masters and destroyed
>them so that they can have the only copy!!!
>Its pretty pathetic really.
We should also recognize that Akashwani does not store
its historic recordings properly, and many have been lost.
One story had it that a peon was taking a whole cartload
of 16rpm transcription discs (30 min to a side) to be taped
for archival purposes and stopped for a chai. The hot sun
melted all the discs into an unrecognizable puddle (giving
perhaps new meaning to the term "raag sagar", I suppose).
The high maintenance standards of the Archive and Research
Centre for Ethnomusicology (Defense Colony, New Delhi) are
sadly the exception rather than the rule.
The collectors I have met and traded with have all been
highly ethical people. They are justifiably indignant
about organizations or individuals preferring to keep recordings
in substandard conditions rather than allow them to circulate
more freely. The vague assertion about "foreign collectors"
which was made recently is unsubstantiated at best, and at
worst a base canard.
Warren Senders
Mkhelkar
which was made recently is unsubstantiated at best, and at
worst a base canard."
Warren,
I was more like a messanger. My term 'foreign' was a verbatim transport of
what was said. By most accounts, I am included in that category which is
loosely used to any one living outside India.
As for preservation, there is a Society of Indian Record Collectors in India
now who are preserving as much of the old 'records' as possible.
I don't want to start up controversies here, there are enough already. By the
same token, some one sent me mail asking about the date of the Vilayat Khan
incident in my last posting. Again, I want o state clearly, that is what I
heard. I have no intention of maligning any one. For my part, I would like to
listen as much good music as one can, that is all.
Mukund
aas...@my-dejanews.com
mkhe...@aol.com (Mkhelkar) wrote:
> Warren wrote: "The vague assertion about "foreign collectors"
> which was made recently is unsubstantiated at best, and at
> worst a base canard."
I agree wholeheartedly with Warren but would also ask not to flame the
messanger. These foreigners, obviously not Indians, should be commended for
the pain and expense they incur to preserve ICM. I feel it is the West which
will become the only preserver of ICM recordings. I know of no bootleg tapes
or CDs. If I knew I would prob. buy some depending on the music :-).
As for SIRC, they are a bunch of well meaning folks who are barely keeping
the Mumbai mold off the old records. That is not true preservation. Their
problem is that they depend too much on RPG to release masters they offer him
on a silver platter. The latest Vazebuwa and Mirasibuwa recordings are no
doubt from them. Would it be so hard to set up a trust so that they release
their own recordings before it is all reduced to dust? The money made could
go back into the real task of preservation.
It seems that the new Gwalior Gharana releases have exporting restrictions.
Surely this is an attempt to protect the music from those "foreign collector
devils". Vive la naivete'.
aas-li
> Warren,
>
> I was more like a messanger. My term 'foreign' was a verbatim transport of
> what was said. By most accounts, I am included in that category which is
> loosely used to any one living outside India.
>
> As for preservation, there is a Society of Indian Record Collectors in India
> now who are preserving as much of the old 'records' as possible.
>
Rajan P. Parrikar
aas...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>messanger. These foreigners, obviously not Indians, should be commended for
>the pain and expense they incur to preserve ICM. I feel it is the West which
>will become the only preserver of ICM recordings.
I see, the "white man's burden" all over again, this time
preserving Indian culture for Indians.
r
WARVIJ
>>should be commended for
>>the pain and expense they incur to preserve ICM.
>>I feel it is the West which
>>will become the only preserver of ICM recordings.
>I see, the "white man's burden" all over again, this time
>preserving Indian culture for Indians.
Actually, it's "the archivist's burden," and of course the
nationality or ethnicity of the archivist is irrelevant.
To suggest that "the West" will become the 'only preserver'
of ICM recordings is another gratuitous over-statement,
as I'm sure we all agree. Anyone who has visited ARCE in
New Delhi knows how a really well-maintained archive
works. Dr. Shubha Chaudhuri (supported by Daniel Neuman,
Tony Seeger and the AIIS) runs a tight but cheerful ship,
which IMO is a model for other such operations.
Warren
TANSEN8106
Warren wrote:
>Actually, it's "the archivist's burden," and of course the
>nationality or ethnicity of the archivist is irrelevant.
>To suggest that "the West" will become the 'only preserver'
>of ICM recordings is another gratuitous over-statement,
>as I'm sure we all agree. Anyone who has visited ARCE in
>New Delhi knows how a really well-maintained archive
>works. Dr. Shubha Chaudhuri (supported by Daniel Neuman,
>Tony Seeger and the AIIS) runs a tight but cheerful ship,
>which IMO is a model for other such operations.
I absolutely agree with Warren on this one. In my view Western people should be
congratulated on trying to archive Indian Classical Music . However there r
some collectors out there who have adopted personalities of "Khansahibs and
Pandits" and r not sharing their treasures with anybody, even though they have
no knowledge on ICM. Music should be shared by everyone and I don't why it is
that people go to great lengths to just collect and not let other people
listen. They r just stealing recordings from archives and adorning them in
their own living room.
Regards to all.
Tansen8106
h bakht
Rajan sahib, " Yeh shehre Dilli hai jo bhi aya usi ne
loota" ; these so called "only preservers" are the new East India Co. of
ICM , who have taken it upon themselves to incur " pain and expense" and
generate a greenback or two in the process for themselves in the process
with the hoard. The scruples they adhere to are ' vive la naivete ' .
Exceptions of course there are .,which can be counted on your fingertips.
Fortunately collectors in India are becoming aware of
these ' traders' who rob the unwary by impressing them with the
catalogued lists of their 'loot' . There was even a letter circulating in
India couple of years ago , about one such character ,whose name I can't
remember now.
Good day.
" To steal from one is plagiarism, to steal from many is research."
H. Bakht.
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@ferrari.colorado.edu> wrote in article
<6t93ak$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> In article <6t90o2$b0r$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> aas...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >messanger. These foreigners, obviously not Indians, should be commended
for
> >the pain and expense they incur to preserve ICM. I feel it is the West
which
> >will become the only preserver of ICM recordings.
>
> I see, the "white man's burden" all over again, this time
> preserving Indian culture for Indians.
>
>
>
> r
>
Krishna Hegde
>
> >
> Actually, it's "the archivist's burden," and of course the
> nationality or ethnicity of the archivist is irrelevant.
>
It is very well put Warren, and I agree with you whole heartedly. I also agree
with you that most people I know have high ethics and all this commercial
exploitaion issue seems to be unsubstantiated. As far as I know the folks at
Raga Records do take painstaking efforts to get the permission of the artist
and/or family before releasing all the music from performances.
On the same note though, is there any archive of similar nature outside India,
besides the individuals (including myself) who all have something or the other
collectable items?
Krishna
WARVIJ
>these so called "only preservers" are the
>new East India Co. of ICM , who have taken
>it upon themselves to incur " pain and expense"
>and generate a greenback or two in the
>process for themselves in the process with the hoard.
<snip>
I have never yet heard of such an assertion being actually
substantiated. If some 'collector' is commercially releasing
rare archival recordings for private financial gain, who are
they selling to? Not me, certainly! And of course not any
of the other rasikas who constitute the only market.
We are the only possible market. Who's doing the selling?
Is there anybody here who's actually BOUGHT a compilation
from one of these 'collectors'?
I thought so. It's sort of an urban legend -- "not me, but
a fellow who trades with my cousin."
So the conclusion we reach is that these collectors are both
unscrupulous and totally clueless -- perhaps they're selling
rare archival ICM recordings as disco mixes for the London
rave scene, or sampling them for hip-hop records. Absurd!
>Fortunately collectors in India are becoming aware of
>these ' traders' who rob the unwary by
>impressing them with the catalogued lists of their
>'loot' .
This sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Please clarify.
How can a trader 'rob the unwary' by 'impressing them with
catalogued lists'? What do you mean? That somebody promised
you Krishnarao Shankar Pandit's Darbari, and gave you a tape of
Shivkumar Sharma's Pahadi instead?
>There was even a letter circulating in
>India couple of years ago , about one such character,
>whose name I can't remember now.
The individual in question is a scrupulous collector and
lover of music who has never made a cent off his love of
ICM. I know him well and heard about this 'letter.' It is
an unfortunate fact of life in these circles that jealousy
and petty politics are often more of a motive than anything
connected with music; the collector was the victim of
a 'poison pen' letter which circulated unsubstantiated
and baseless allegations through the community of
collectors in India.
The existence of an allegation is proof of nothing, except
that perhaps some people will jump at the opportunity to
attribute malign motives to their fellow human beings --
and that some people will jump at the opportunity to
believe them.
WS
Ajay P Nerurkar
: The high maintenance standards of the Archive and Research
: Centre for Ethnomusicology (Defense Colony, New Delhi) are
: sadly the exception rather than the rule.
This passeth all understanding. One could perhaps be generous and excuse
people born into another musical tradition applying the E-label to Indian
music. Some people (as evinced on this newsgroup from time to time) don't
make even this much of an allowance.
Who would think that an organisation with such a name is operating on
Indian soil and working to preserve Indian music ?!
Ajay
WARVIJ
: The high maintenance standards of the Archive and Research
: Centre for Ethnomusicology (Defense Colony, New Delhi) are
: sadly the exception rather than the rule.
Ajay writes:
>This passeth all understanding.
>One could perhaps be generous and excuse people
>born into another musical tradition applying
>the E-label to Indian music.
>Who would think that an organisation
>with such a name is operating on
>Indian soil and working to preserve Indian music ?!
Your understanding of the term 'ethnomusicology' is
obviously limited. I infer that you believe the word
refers to the study of so-called 'primitive' musics
which are not part of "high cultural" traditions.
This is incorrect. While the definition of 'ethnomusicology'
is still undergoing debate, the more global sense of the term
refers to the study of ANY musical tradition along with its
cultural or artistic context. I have seen 'ethnomusicology' papers which
discuss the sociology of jazz big-bands, the lyrical structures
of American Southern blues, the relationship of ragas to maqam-at,
and for that matter the rehearsal practices of Western
classical ensembles. The term refers, in my view, to
a particular APPROACH to the material -- one which recognizes
that the music under study is one among many forms of music
on the planet, and attempts to avoid pre-emptive value judgements.
To give you a negative example, the elderly khyal singer
who says "Africans have no music, it's just boom boom boom"
(an actual quote from a relatively distinguished vocalist of my
acquaintance) is making no attempt to assess the impact of
his own cultural conditioning on his understanding of other
cultures' musics. A course in ethnomusicology would have a
salutary effect on such an individual, needless to say.
Surely every human being on the planet belongs to at least
one if not several ethnic groups, and thus surely any form
of music on the planet is 'ethnic.'
Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
to other forms of musical expression? I don't. I just like
it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
WS
Augustus T. White
> Surely every human being on the planet belongs to at least
> one if not several ethnic groups, and thus surely any form
> of music on the planet is 'ethnic.'
Thus far I agree with you.
> Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
> to other forms of musical expression?
Yes.
>I don't. I just like
> it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
Its important not to succumb to the extreme forms of cultural relativism;
perhaps as important as to avoid the opposite extreme of ethnocentrism.
Human beings are constructed along the same general lines everywhere, and
it would be as foolish to ignore the broad similarities of aesthetic
principle as to ignore the differences.
On that basis, it is entirely possible to have a meaningful discussion
about whether ICM is better than some other style. It may be that many
of the cultural values which inform the music will be different, so that
no exact comparison can be made. However, many will be the same. In
particular the values of musicianship are probably almost universal: the
ability to communicate emotional experience, the use of rhythm, tone and
dynamic variations to color or emphasize portions.
ICM is "intrinsically superior" because it gives such scope to these
qualities. It also has a number of other features which place it very
high on a set of criteria which would find broad approval among serious
listeners. For example, the raga format is a productive solution to the
structure versus invention problem. It has a lot of intellectual
challenge for those who enjoy that aspect, without being unapproachable
to the naive listener.
It also has a number of weaknesses. Its technically very difficult to
perform or learn, which limits the number and variety of accomplished
artists. Both tradition, the use of a drone, and microtonal inflection
limit (but do not eliminate) the possibilities for harmony. Its deep
cultural roots make it harder than some styles for an outsider to
approach.
Still, on balance, the only possible competitor is WCM, with maybe West
African music close behind. Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes of
intense effort, including you.
--Toby White
vr...@williams.edu
> Your understanding of the term 'ethnomusicology' is
> obviously limited. I infer that you believe the word
> refers to the study of so-called 'primitive' musics
> which are not part of "high cultural" traditions.
>
> This is incorrect. While the definition of 'ethnomusicology'
> is still undergoing debate, the more global sense of the term
> refers to the study of ANY musical tradition along with its
> cultural or artistic context.
While this is technically correct, it is rather rare to see people who call
themselves ethnomusicologists study Western classical traditions - within or
without a cultural context. Such scholars are usually in "Music" departments
in the US. On the other hand it is extremely common to see "pure" musicians
- i.e.: those who are not trained in the social sciences, but are experts in
some non-Western form of music - populate ethnomusicology departments. This
suggests that despite contemporary (post-structuralist) attempts to redifine
the field, ethnomusicology, in practice, remains devoted to the study of
non-Western music. Moreover, Ethnomusicology departments are usually treated
as the poor cousins of Music departments in most American universities and
colleges with less resources and the sort of politically correct (its great
for diversity but they are not serious scholars) reputation that clings to
other "Ethnic Studies" departments.
It was precisely for this reason that the distinguished Karnatic musicians at
Wesleyan Univ. fought and won a long battle to be part of the University's
"Music" department and to *not* be called "Ethnomusicologists." I had a
conversation with Dr.Vishva a few years ago about this and he was clear that
he led the battle in order to have ICM treated on par with Western classical
music at the University.
Biju
Peter Lonergan
<augw...@neosoft.com> wrote:
>WARVIJ wrote:
>
...
>
>Yes.
>
>>I don't. I just like
>> it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
...
>Still, on balance, the only possible competitor is WCM, with maybe West
>African music close behind. Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
>court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
>Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
>legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes of
>intense effort, including you.
>
> --Toby White
Arab classical music?
Mauritanian classical music?
Mandinko jali singing (and its modern descendents)?
Sardinian launeddas?
Persian classical music?
Are Munir Bachir, Um Kalthoum, Jali Musa Jawara, Dionigi Burranca, and
Nasser Rastegar-Nejad to be accorded less than equal dignity then "any
competent khayaliya" singing Multani?
WARVIJ
it deserves. Let this be an initial riposte, with more to follow.
>Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
>court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
>Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
>legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes of
>intense effort, including you.
Until and unless you/I/anyone else can devote the same 'lifetime of
intense effort' to understanding Cambodian or Navaho music that we
have brought to Hindustani music, there is no alternative but to
give those traditions equal dignity. To the Cambodian or Navaho,
our competent khyaliya's Multani is just a lot of meaningless
yowling. Does this therefore mean they're stupider than we are?
I hope not.
>If they are equal in any
>legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes of
>intense effort, including you.
I do music because I enjoy it. My enjoyment is in no sense
predicated on a sense of hierarchical superiority of any one
tradition over any other. ICM addresses some of the concerns
about music which I find most interesting, but other people
from other cultures may not have the same concerns. Nor
should they.
In one sense, music is intrinsically a waste of time which
could be better spent looking for food. In another sense,
ANY music is training for cognition and memory, and deserves
our respect.
Who deserves more respect -- a dignified singer of Navaho Enemy
Way songs who has devoted his life to his art, or a hotshot young
sitarist who thinks chamchagiri is his hereditary prerogative?
Warren
WARVIJ
excerpted:
>Moreover, Ethnomusicology departments are usually treated
>as the poor cousins of Music departments
>in most American universities and colleges with less
>resources and the sort of politically correct (its great
>for diversity but they are not serious scholars)
>reputation that clings to other "Ethnic Studies" departments.
Yes. In the ideal academic environment, the "ethnic studies"
stigma wouldn't exist, and the study of music in its cultural
context would by rights include Western music in all its
manifestations. And, further, the study of music practice
from any culture, devoid of contextual/anthropological
input, would be part of a 'music' department, pure and simple.
It is obvious that my own sweeping and 'Platonic' definition
of ethnomusicology is not the norm everywhere.
I do not think that the term need carry any intrinsic perjorative
connotations, as Ajay seemed to suggest. As a lifelong
student/practitioner of Hindustani music, I do not regard
what I do as ethnomusicology in any way -- except when I
am trying to make sense of a particular musical phenomenon
or behavior which is inscrutable when perceived apart from
its cultural/historical context.
To sing a thumri is singing. To recognize the changes that
the form has sustained (in the course of its shift in venue
from the private salons of courtesans to the modern concert
stage) and to understand that similar processes are at work
elsewhere in other world musical traditions -- this is
ethnomusicology. Thus it is correct to say that an ethno-
musicological perspective is one of the tools which I bring
to my own quest for musically satisfying experiences. It
is not (and has never been) my raison d'etre.
Warren
atw...@concentric.net
Peter Lonergan <pel...@mbi.net> wrote in article
<35fa7247...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> ...
> >Still, on balance, the only possible competitor is WCM, with maybe West
> >African music close behind. Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
> >court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
> >Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
> >legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes
of
> >intense effort, including you.
> >
> > --Toby White
>
> Arab classical music?
> Mauritanian classical music?
> Mandinko jali singing (and its modern descendents)?
> Sardinian launeddas?
> Persian classical music?
>
> Are Munir Bachir, Um Kalthoum, Jali Musa Jawara, Dionigi Burranca, and
> Nasser Rastegar-Nejad to be accorded less than equal dignity then "any
> competent khayaliya" singing Multani?
Don't get artists mixed up with the music they make. I asked for a serious
comparison of the music, not the musicians. As I said, people (including
musicians) are much the same around the world. In any case, I have no
basis to pass judgment on these folks as people. I do feel that it is
meaningful to pass judgment on their art, even generically. Without
judgment, art is a pretty meaningless exercise, no? My point is that such
judgments are not solipsistic exercises, devoid of any meaning outside the
isolated brains of atomistic individuals. Pure cultural relativism
proceeds from this utterly unrealistic philosophical basis, and degrades
all cultures by assuming their artistic products are equivalent.
The really ironic thing about cultural relativism is that the logical
endpoint is indistinguishable from ethnocentrism. I'll give two examples:
1) Both European and Indian cultures, to paint with a very broad brush
indeed, place considerable emphasis on formal music of the court - and -
temple sort. Suppose we run into a culture (South American Indians of
various kinds?) that simply doesn't for whatever reason. The cultural
relativists will blithely promote whatever rudimentary formal music these
folks may have to fit their own cultural preconceptions about the place of
music in society. In doing so, they have allowed their own cultural
relativism to blind them.
2) When confronted by real live cultural differences that they cannot
rationalize away as in (1), cultural relativists are frequently heard to
say that "the [insert name of favorite ethnicity] experience is so
different" that the art, practice, or thought pattern is simply not
possible for "us" to appreciate or understand. From here, it is but a
short step to say that: (a) I have nothing to learn from them since I can't
understand; (b) I have nothing to teach since they don't understand; and
(c) they are not fully human since we don't communicate.
I would prefer to make my judgments up front. In doing so, I will be wrong
a good deal of the time, as in other matters, and will doubtless learn from
the reactions of others to those judgments. This because there is
something to learn and be debated. It isn't *just* a matter of opinion or
perspective.
--Toby White
atw...@concentric.net
atw...@concentric.net wrote in article
<01bdde67$eb7bd180$60e09bcf@default>...
If anyone feels moved to respond by email, please do not use this return
email address. Use augw...@neosoft.com. Thanks.
--Toby White
Ajay P Nerurkar
: Your understanding of the term 'ethnomusicology' is
: obviously limited. I infer that you believe the word
: refers to the study of so-called 'primitive' musics
: which are not part of "high cultural" traditions.
No. The meaning I ascribe to the term is perfectly in accord with its
generally accepted connotation. Notice I say connotation. "Ethnomusicology"
is generally taken to mean the study in a socio-cultural context of
non-Western Classical musical styles. While there might be an E-paper or
two on WCM, once in a blue moon, when all the appropriate planets are lined
up right, this hardly does justice to one of the world's more dominant musical
traditions.
(Note : I do not have anything against WCM. For instance, I do not seriously
think that WCM is INTRINSICALLY INFERIOR to other forms of musical expression.)
I am not suggesting that everyone who uses the E-term in this sense regards
other kinds of music as "primitive", rather something outside the mainstream
something foreign, which has to be understood in the proper social,political,
linguistic, religious etc. context for one to have any hope of making any
sense of it -- E for exotic as well as ethnic.
The situation here is somewhat similar in spirit to the classification of
Ravi Shankar's "Sitar Music" as World Music by music stores here. Nothing
wrong with that, but that doesn't mean that stores in Bombay (now known as
Mumbai) should follow suit. You surely, therefore, agree that if one had to
christen as clearly and unambiguously as possible, an Indian outfit dedicated
to preserving Indian music, one would go with a less loaded choice of name.
: This is incorrect. While the definition of 'ethnomusicology'
: is still undergoing debate, the more global sense of the term
: refers to the study of ANY musical tradition along with its
: cultural or artistic context.
As I pointed out above, this is not the more global sense of the term.
: The term refers, in my view, to
: a particular APPROACH to the material -- one which recognizes
: that the music under study is one among many forms of music
: on the planet, and attempts to avoid pre-emptive value judgements.
In another post you comment:
: It is obvious that my own sweeping and 'Platonic' definition
: of ethnomusicology is not the norm everywhere.
That's the point. Your catholic approach is commendable, but sadly your
definition and understanding of the term have zilch to do with how it is
generally understood.
: I don't. I just like
: it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
That's very nice.
Ajay
WARVIJ
>christen as clearly and unambiguously
>as possible, an Indian outfit dedicated
>to preserving Indian music, one would go
>with a less loaded choice of name.
Ahh, but the Archive and Research Centre for
Ethnomusicology in New Delhi is not only dedicated
to preserving Indian music (although the bulk of
submissions are of Indian classical and folk music,
as one would expect from its location). It is in fact,
as its name suggests, an Archive and Research Centre
for Ethnomusicology. Their library is really quite wonderful,
and their archives are by no means idiomatically
restricted.
If they were dedicated exclusively to preserving ICM for
generations of rasika-s, your objections would be
germane -- but on the other hand, they would have chosen
a different name.
I'll address the rest of your response later. Gotta run.
WS
vr...@williams.edu
> To sing a thumri is singing. To recognize the changes that
> the form has sustained (in the course of its shift in venue
> from the private salons of courtesans to the modern concert
> stage) and to understand that similar processes are at work
> elsewhere in other world musical traditions -- this is
> ethnomusicology.
Well Put! With the same caveats.
By the way, a truly wonderful article on the subject by a fine thumri singer
who is also a good sociologist is:
"Thumri as Feminine voice," by Vidya Rao (no relation), Economic and Political
Weekly, Volume 25, #17, 28th April 1990.
h bakht
Again "Magar mita na sake hastiye Hindostan; yeh
shahr-e Dilli hai ,jo bhi aya usi ne loota."
It did' nt come to me from 'somebody's uncle's nephew'
but a scruplous Indian collector who had been sweet talked into parting
with his collection with all kinds of promises by least one "American chor"
(my friends words) and one Canadian "Pucca chor" (American chor's
description of the Canadian to me; I' dropping the expletives he used for
this Canadian).
I myself have been the victim of this "Trade business"
perpetrated on me by one Brit and a German.
As for substantiation ,if you happen to be in Delhi in
the next few months ,I'll be glad to let you take to these ' victims' to
let you see for yourself what I'm talking about; if some of my sentences
still don't make sense ;you may learn more 'Indian english' as you
Americans seem to be good at being experts at everything !
As for your using the word ' Rasik ' , Could you define
,quantify or at least give a brief '
bio-psycho-socio-anthropo-eco-chemical analysis of ' it !! You must have
studied it to the very minutest hair-spltting detail ! ,as I believe most
Aericans goto great lengths to quantify everything; even ' Rasa ' !
Or if you are a Brit trasplant in new england, (I may be
wrong ,but your zeal to defend ,points in that direction ) have'nt you been
treated as an ' ethno-specimen' by some ' ethno---ology ' faculty of some
university there yet !!
In the days bygone marauders used to come brandishing
swords , now a days they come as ' researchers,experts,scholars and ONLY
PRESERVERS ARCHIVISTS ' to save India's or third world treasures !!
Really warm regards.
Hidayat Bakht
WARVIJ <war...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809111557...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
WARVIJ
rude -- especially the material reprinted below?
WS
--------------------------------------------------------
Hidayat:
Ajay P Nerurkar
: Ahh, but the Archive and Research Centre for
: Ethnomusicology in New Delhi is not only dedicated
: to preserving Indian music
My objection still stands. The term is discriminatory and hence is
not a particularly happy choice, whatever the mission of the Centre
may be.
Ajay
TANSEN8106
HBakht wrote:
> It did' nt come to me from 'somebody's uncle's nephew'
>but a scruplous Indian collector who had been sweet talked into parting
>with his collection with all kinds of promises by least one "American chor"
>(my friends words) and one Canadian "Pucca chor" (American chor's
>description of the Canadian to me; I' dropping the expletives he used for
>this Canadian).
Bakht sahib, I don't know about the "Amreekee chor" but I know one thing for
sure, if its the same Candian whom I'm thinking of, then he's the "Gabbar
Singh" of all collectors!!! Although he did give me some good recs of
Amanat-Fateh Khsbs!!
Khuda aisay logon say humein bachaaye. Aameeen....
Regards
Tansen8106
Peter Lonergan
>
>
>Peter Lonergan <pel...@mbi.net> wrote in article
><35fa7247...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
>> ...
>> >Still, on balance, the only possible competitor is WCM, with maybe West
>> >African music close behind. Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
>> >court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
>> >Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
>> >legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes
>of
>> >intense effort, including you.
>> >
>> > --Toby White
>>
>> Arab classical music?
>> Mauritanian classical music?
>> Mandinko jali singing (and its modern descendents)?
>> Sardinian launeddas?
>> Persian classical music?
>>
>> Are Munir Bachir, Um Kalthoum, Jali Musa Jawara, Dionigi Burranca, and
>> Nasser Rastegar-Nejad to be accorded less than equal dignity then "any
>> competent khayaliya" singing Multani?
>
>Don't get artists mixed up with the music they make. I asked for a serious
>comparison of the music, not the musicians. As I said, people (including
...
Sorry if my phrasing was unclear, but in a discussion about music it
should be understood that I was talking about these people's music. I
know little and care less about their conduct or dignity other than as
musicians. My point is that it is easy to cite a number of serious,
sophisticated traditions without falling into the trap of
non-judgmental relativism. If the only 'dignified' traditions you can
cite are ICM, WCM and (possibly) West African music, I suggest that
you listen some more before you turn a deaf ear to the rest of the
world.
>1) Both European and Indian cultures, to paint with a very broad brush
>indeed, place considerable emphasis on formal music of the court - and -
>temple sort. Suppose we run into a culture (South American Indians of
>various kinds?) that simply doesn't for whatever reason. The cultural
...
This may have something to do with it - four of the five traditions I
cited have a court or temple connection, or both. The fifth, however,
is a classic case cited by those you would tar with a broad brush. In
case you are not familiar with the Sardinian launeddas, this
instrument has been played in Sardinia (and apparently nowhere else)
since the Bronze Age. Its often illiterate (until this century)
players can cite 'gharana' and 'guru-shishiya' affiliations going back
at least to the eighteenth century. No traceable roots to court - the
players were and often still are shepherds. The connections to temple
are tenuous - the instrument is played during various Catholic
processions but this is true of many European folk instruments.
>2) When confronted by real live cultural differences that they cannot
>rationalize away as in (1), cultural relativists are frequently heard to
>say that "the [insert name of favorite ethnicity] experience is so
>different" that the art, practice, or thought pattern is simply not
>possible for "us" to appreciate or understand. From here, it is but a
...
Possibly correct. To my ear there are a number of folk traditions
that seem too simple to hold my attention. There are some court or
religious traditions (what does this mean for your first point above?)
that, although sophisticated, seem so ossified that they have lost
their vigor (perhaps the case of Cambodian court music?). One must be
extremely careful with such judgments, however, as they have been
applied to ICM and WCM both by those who had no ears to hear.
>
> --Toby White
Sajjad Khaliq
: Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
: to other forms of musical expression?
Yes.
: I don't. I just like it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
Maybe Miyan Tansen (Tansen8016) can put this question to the vote for us!
---
Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
Sajjad Khaliq
: To give you a negative example, the elderly khyal singer
: who says "Africans have no music, it's just boom boom boom"
: (an actual quote from a relatively distinguished vocalist of my
: acquaintance) is making no attempt to assess the impact of
: his own cultural conditioning on his understanding of other
: cultures' musics. A course in ethnomusicology would have a
: salutary effect on such an individual, needless to say.
Are you saying a course of ethnomusicology is required before one can
appreciate African music? I did not need to take ANY courses to appreciate
Indian Classical Music! As far as cultural conditioning etc., most people
who begin to appreciate Indian Classical Music, need little or no
introduction to the culture etc., and that usually comes afterwards.
With all your education you should know better than to compare and put on
an equal footing African Music which is a folk art form, with the
Classical Music of India.
I think what the Khayalia was trying to say and you failed to understand,
despite your strong educational background, is that Africans have NO
classical music.
Your educational background should tell you that you can compare a Bengali
Baool singer or Punjabi Banhgra singing to African Music.
Ashok
>
>WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
>: to other forms of musical expression?
>
>Yes.
>
>: I don't. I just like it a lot and have devoted my life to it.
>
>Maybe Miyan Tansen (Tansen8016) can put this question to the vote for us!
>
>
>---
Has T8016 posted the results of his/her/its previous survey (vocalists)?
I only remember seeing various expectation-building annoncements that the
results are fascinating, but don't remember seeing the results.
Ashok
TANSEN8106
>ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok)
>Has T8016 posted the results of his/her/its previous survey (vocalists)?
>I only remember seeing various expectation-building annoncements that the
>results are fascinating, but don't remember seeing the results.
Ashok ji, I did post the results for the Fav. vocalist survey and if my memory
serves me correct Amir Khsb had the most votes followed by Pandit Bhimsen
Joshi.
Regards
Tansen8106
TANSEN8106
>aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
>With all your education you should know better than to compare and put on
>an equal footing African Music which is a folk art form, with the
>Classical Music of India.
>
In my view Sajjad Khaliq has summed it up quite well. There is no way that
certain misic forms can be compared with ICM. ICM has to be the most noble and
technical form of classical music there is. No question about it.
By comparing music from places such as Bali, Eithiopia or Mongolia is an insult
to our music.
Regards to all
Mian Tansen
WARVIJ
>With all your education you should know
>better than to compare and put on
>an equal footing African Music which
>is a folk art form, with the Classical Music of India.
"Mian Tansen" --
>ICM has to be the most noble and technical
>form of classical music there is. No question about it.
>By comparing music from places such as Bali,
>Eithiopia or Mongolia is an insult to our music.
The above quotes should need no riposte of any sort from me.
It is unlikely that Sajjad would ever condescend to read
a superb study like Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African
Sensibility," but if he were to do so, recognizing his own
ignorance and striving to overcome his own ethnocentrism,
he might learn something about the nature of other musical
traditions.
As for "Mian Tansen's" comment, I would ask him whether he
knows anything at all about the musical traditions of the
countries he mentioned -- or did he just pick them out of
a hat? If, as I suspect, the answer is that he has never
studied or involved himself in those traditions in the least,
then what basis does he have for comparison?
Only the training and background he has in ICM. Note this,
friends: if other music were organized according to the
exact set of aesthetic priorities which obtain in Indian music,
it would BE Indian music, and the whole world would be singing
ragas.
Another culture's aesthetic priorities are not better or worse
than India's -- they're different. To make remarks about other
forms of music, attempting to objectify issues of quality,
is presumptuous at best, and foolish or malign at worst.
An analogy would be to say that people who speak a language
you don't understand don't make any sense, or have no beauty
of phrase -- since to YOUR ear, it's all gobbledygook.
Sajjad, let me make one quote from Chernoff to illustrate
some of the dimensions you (and I) may be missing when we
narrowly define African music as a 'primitive' or 'folk' form:
"The relationship of drumming to language is one of the most
important factors in limiting the freedom of improvisation.
On one hand, linguistic expressions help the African drummer
to create fresh rhythms; in most cases, on the other hand,
because of the interweaving of musical and linguistic
considerations, a drummer cannot move too far either from
the rhythmic potential of a particular pattern or from the
meaning that the pattern may have as a comprehensible
phrase."
I interrupt here: what Chernoff is discussing is the fact that
EVERY drum stroke in the music he's discussing corresponds
with a syllable in spoken poetry. A drum pattern is played,
and it corresponds with a line of verse. Thus rhythms may
interlock and create multiple, simultaneous layers of textual
meaning as well as a complex poly-rhythmic structure. I
continue:
"In essense, a good drummer must integrate his comments
musically, but when a drummer speaks, he must make music
as well. Ewe drummers sometimes engage in competitions,
hurtling insults at each other on their drums or trying to
duplicate each other's improvisations and body movements.
Often, when Gideon was going to be around, other drummers
would not even appear: they were afraid to go up against
Gideon. Gideon could always invent witty remarks which
could be clearly understood, which involved extremely subtle
beating, and which always fit perfectly into the rhythms of the
ensemble.... In Dagbon, many popular dances originate from
the rhythms of praise-names, and when a chief dances, the
drummers all gather around him and take turns beating their
'dondons.' All very nice music, a Westerner might say (or
an ICM listener -- WS), but more than that, the drummers
are talking to the chief, praising him or his dancing and
trying to get him to do something spectacular. Both the
music and the comments are necesary to inspire the chief,
who as a connoisseur is probably not easy to please."
Chernoff, "African Rhythm, African Sensibility" p. 81
I would comment here as a supplement that African musicians
who have listened to Indian music (in my company) have
enjoyed the rhythmic complexity of the music, but comment
that the tempos tend to vary frequently. To them the ICM
approach to 'pulse' is dreadfully ragged and sloppy.
When I have taught some of my ICM colleagues African
rhythms, they have been astonished at the extraordinary
difficulty involved in sustaining even a simple pattern in
the middle of a polyrhythmic texture. Even a highly gifted
tabla player said "this is harder than anything I have ever
tried."
More later.
Warren Senders
WARVIJ
was not "commenting that Africans have no classical
music." He was being asinine, pure and simple -- making
snap judgements about a musical tradition he was ill-
equipped to understand. To HIS ear it all sounded like
'boom boom boom' and so he said so.
I don't blame him for his ignorance. But I think we can
do better than that, nowadays. Don't you?
WS
Vivek R. Datar
>WS
Folks
About 100 years back, similar comment was made by British
regarding ICM. I am quoting mostly from memory, if anybody
has more details please post.
Some Voiceroy from England had a comission to study ICM. The
comission concluded that these people don't know what they
are talking about ("these people" were some of the greatest
artists ever lived!), they can't write their music, and they
can't reproduce it. Obviously, the comparisn was with WCM, which
as we know now, is comparing apples and oranges.
This prompted some of the Vidwans like Bhatkhande to develope
a script for ICM.
Regards
-Vivek
WARVIJ
>>Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
>>court music or Navajo rain chants should be
>>given equal dignity with a
>>Multani performed by any competent khayaliya?
>>If they are equal in any
>>legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good
>>people have wasted lifetimes of
>>intense effort, including you.
"Mian Tansen" --
>>There is no way that certain misic (sic)
>>forms can be compared with ICM.
>>ICM has to be the most noble and
>>technical form of classical music there is.
>>No question about it.
>>By comparing music from places such as Bali,
>>Eithiopia (sic) or Mongolia is an insult
>>to our music.
Sorry to flog this particular horse, folks. I just wanted to
make one further comment.
Toby's comment (above) seems to suggest that I've wasted
my life UNLESS Indian Classical Music is intrinsically
SUPERIOR to other forms. "Mian Tansen" goes along with
this, and further equates intrinsic superiority with two
vague subjective measures: "nobility" and "technicality."
The first comment reminds me (sorry, Toby) of the posturing
of 12-year-old boys, as in
"_______ is the best rock band!"
"No!! ________ is the best!"
"You're both wrong! ______ is the best!"
Terms like "best" (or their two-dollar equivalents like
"superior") are irrelevant when considered outside their
correct cultural context. "Mian Tansen" carries it further,
and I will extend the analogy, going back to the twelve-year-
old boys again:
"________ is the best rock band, BECAUSE they're cooler
than those others!"
Note that the superlative 'cooler' has only a subjective
referent, and is thus meaningless. Substitute "more noble"
or "more technical" for "cooler" and we begin to approximate
"Mian Tansen's" assertion.
"Mian Tansen" equates 'nobility' and 'technicality' with
intrinsic value. Anybody else want to take a crack at this
interesting question?
Sajjad, astonishingly, emitted the following phrase,
which I have already quoted once:
>With all your education you should know
>better than to compare and put on
>an equal footing African Music which
>is a folk art form, with the
>Classical Music of India.
Sajjad, has it occurred to you that my willingness to avoid
ethnocentric value judgements between two completely
different musical cultures may be BECAUSE of my education,
not IN SPITE of it?
Oh, and one more thing: I continue to be delighted by Rajan's
correct use of the phrase "ethnic musician" in referring to
WCM practitioners like Debussy. I cite him to my students,
who are at first baffled, then indignant, then (finally) as
delighted as I. While Rajan's phrasing may have originated
in his rather asperitous and curmudgeonly approach, it is
entirely apposite, and deserves special mention and daad.
Cheers,
"Swami Haridas"
...oops! I meant to sign
Warren
Sajjad Khaliq
: Ashok ji, I did post the results for the Fav. vocalist survey and if my memory
: serves me correct Amir Khsb had the most votes followed by Pandit Bhimsen
: Joshi.
: Tansen8106
My recollection was that the most favourite vocalist was, according to
your survey results, Bhimsen Joshi, not Amir Khan.
rpen...@hotmail.com
I have been following this really interesting thread and would
like to summarize my understanding of the topics encountered.
1 Ustad Alladiya Khan recordings - may not really exist.
2 antique private collections
a set of recordings of long dead musicians who do not have any
legal heirs to protect/benefit from their work recorded legally
or illegally.
I think that owners of such recordings should treat them as
antiques. realize that like any other stuff with antique value
could be stolen/looted, displayed, published, neglected, destroyed
and whatever they feel like. it is their own responsibility to
guard their assets.
3 unpublished but legal recordings I guess that you can have unpublished
recordings provided you get some sort of permission from the musician. but
there is a lack of standards or an accepted process to get a musician's
permission. It is also the responsibility of the musician to keep track of
unpublished recordings. the musicians must realize their right to jealously
guard their work.
4 illegal recordings
illegal recordings of work by musicians that are alive.
Stay away from these as it hurts the musicians and the music on
the long run.
5 ethnomusicology - a web search on this term got me lots of links.
most of these links deal with 'world music' implicitly excluding
western classical music. also most of the authors are euro/american.
It seems to be a Eurocentric approach to divide music into Western
Music and Other Music - perfectly fine viewpoint if you are deep into
WCM and would like to have some interaction with 'other music'.
Having an institution in Delhi for ethnomusicology which among other
things deals with Indian music 'does not sound right'. an extreme view
would be to call it a neo-colonial outpost. just kidding.
6 ICM is the Greatest
Definitely. atleast for some people, sometime. It does not mean that
other musics cannot be greater.
regards
Ravi Pendkar
atw...@concentric.net
WARVIJ <war...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809151730...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> The first comment reminds me (sorry, Toby) of the posturing
> of 12-year-old boys, as in
>
> "_______ is the best rock band!"
> "No!! ________ is the best!"
> "You're both wrong! ______ is the best!"
Au contraire. I have and gave reasons why I consider ICM to be the best
(or one of the very best) musical traditions. In any case, there is
nothing wrong with the dialog above except that 12-year olds lack the
critical vocabulary or experience to discuss the matter meaningfully. Is
it your supposition that it is not possible to compare rock bands?
Certainly you have no trouble comparing ICM artists, so why not rock bands?
Of course, comparisons can be made by children and idiots, but that
doesn't demonstrate the futility of all comparison.
What, then, if one of the bands is a Reggae band and the other a Seattle
band? Still possible? How about a Bhangra band and a progressive country
group in Kentucky? Where do we draw the line beyond which you would merely
have us shrug our collective shoulders and abandon critical thinking?
> Terms like "best" (or their two-dollar equivalents like
> "superior") are irrelevant when considered outside their
> correct cultural context.
Why? A cultural difference is not like the event horizon of a black hole.
It is not an immutable or even a heritable difference. It takes more
effort to communicate across cultural and languistic barriers. However,
the vast majority of all people in all cultures are born, grow up, fight,
fall in love, grow old and fear death and the infinite. 90% of all songs
by all peoples are about these experiences that we have in common. Why are
your comparative adjectives exempt from this commonality? Is any group of
human beings so different from the rest of us that we do not even share
these experiences? And, if we can share them, we can compare, however
imprecisely, how well they are captured in music.
--Toby White
WARVIJ
>I have and gave reasons why I consider ICM to be the best
>(or one of the very best) musical traditions.
And they're fine reasons, and I agree with most of them; I just
take exception to a blanket categorization in value terms.
When you use a term like 'best,' what you're doing is stating
which aesthetic elements have the highest priority in your
individual scale of values. This choice or prioritization
is a personal one, as I'm sure you'll agree.
>In any case, there is nothing wrong with the dialog above
>except that 12-year olds lack the critical vocabulary or
>experience to discuss the matter meaningfully.
>Is it your supposition that it is not possible to compare rock bands?
>Certainly you have no trouble comparing ICM artists,
>so why not rock bands?
If you scroll through comments I've made in the past, you'll find
that I have never used terms like 'X is better than Y." I will comment
that particular artists are personally less or more satisfying, and
I have certainly expressed my own aesthetic values often enough
in this forum! But (and this is what I was trying to say to Jeff, way
back in 'sitar wars') I do not believe that my aesthetic values are
universally held, that anyone's aesthetic values are universal, or
that comparison necessarily implies hierarchical ranking on a value
scale.
>Of course, comparisons can be made by children and idiots, but that
>doesn't demonstrate the futility of all comparison.
Kieran Egan, in his book "The Educated Mind" points out a developmental
stage in childrens' thinking, in which they need to rank the objects
and phenomena around them. This is essential to the formation of their
personal values, but it must be outgrown in order to achieve a degree
of empathy with, and understanding of, other value systems.
Comparison per se is of course the basis of human inquiry into the
world around us. But comparison does not necessarily imply valuation,
nor should it.
>What, then, if one of the bands is a Reggae band and the other a Seattle
>band? Still possible? How about a Bhangra band and a progressive country
>group in Kentucky? Where do we draw the line beyond which you would merely
>have us shrug our collective shoulders and abandon critical thinking?
Do you seriously believe you can make universally applicable value judgements
of such diverse musical phenomena? Comparison of these ensembles, or of
any others, should in my view focus on the various musical elements, as in
"we notice that the Reggae band uses XX rhythmic structures, while the
Seattle group uses YY rhythms. Clarity of pronunciation seems more highly
valued in the Reggae band, but the language itself is more highly allusive
and analogical. The harmonic progressions are similar in both, and seem to
be derived from the following models: WW, XX and YY." etc., etc., etc.
No value judgements, but informative comparison.
>Why? A cultural difference is not like the event horizon of a black hole.
>It is not an immutable or even a heritable difference. It takes more
>effort to communicate across cultural and languistic barriers. However,
>the vast majority of all people in all cultures are born, grow up, fight,
>fall in love, grow old and fear death and the infinite. 90% of all songs
>by all peoples are about these experiences that we have in common. Why are
>your comparative adjectives exempt from this commonality? Is any group of
>human beings so different from the rest of us that we do not even share
>these experiences? And, if we can share them, we can compare, however
>imprecisely, how well they are captured in music.
Your prose is beautiful!
But I continue to disagree that cultural differences have to be translated
into value scales. A form of music manifests the styles of communication
which are intrinsic to its source culture, and we can surely agree that
people make music together in ways that are determined by their cultural
background, surroundings and upbringing. To rank these musics on a
value scale, it seems to me, is therefore to rank their cultures, which is
a classic ethnocentric mistake.
Human beings everywhere share similar experiences, yet translate them into
musical expression in strikingly different and wonderful ways. Why should
one way be 'better' or 'worse' than another? The more I study music from
all over the planet, the more delighted I am at the variety of solutions which
humans have found for the simple problems of translating experience into
expression. This variety is surely one of the world's great wonders. We
need not rank the flowers to enjoy the blossoming profusion of the garden.
Warren S.
Sajjad Khaliq
: The above quotes should need no riposte of any sort from me.
: It is unlikely that Sajjad would ever condescend to read
: a superb study like Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African
: Sensibility," but if he were to do so, recognizing his own
: ignorance and striving to overcome his own ethnocentrism,
: he might learn something about the nature of other musical
: traditions.
Fortunately or unfortunately, we can't all be scholars, ethnomuscologists,
anthropologists or whatever, hence people like, me have little or no
inclination
to "condescend" to read works like Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African
Sensibility". We merely hear other musical forms and traditions and try
to make sense of them and appreciate them by listening. I did not have to
read any scholarly works to appreciate Indian Classical Music, so I see
no reason to read such works to appreciate African rythmn.
Secondly, you like everyone else, stressed only rythmn in African music.
Where is the melody in African music, and it's strengths? I rather feel
there is none!
I'm sure you'll be in agreement that in Indian Classical Music we
have such a unique combination of melody and rythmn as well
as improvisation and structure. I think this is the greatness
of Indian Classical Music - it's balanced and not lacking and
underdeveloped in any respect.
: An analogy would be to say that people who speak a language
: you don't understand don't make any sense, or have no beauty
: of phrase -- since to YOUR ear, it's all gobbledygook.
Not so. I've heard it said that music is a universal language. I did not
have to learn the language of Indian Classical Music to appreciate it, so
your analogy is not valid.
: "The relationship of drumming to language is one of the most
: important factors in limiting the freedom of improvisation.
: On one hand, linguistic expressions help the African drummer
: to create fresh rhythms; in most cases, on the other hand,
: because of the interweaving of musical and linguistic
: considerations, a drummer cannot move too far either from
: the rhythmic potential of a particular pattern or from the
: meaning that the pattern may have as a comprehensible
: phrase."
Again, you're stressting the Rythmn in African Music, as I fear that's all
it has to offer!
: I interrupt here: what Chernoff is discussing is the fact that
: EVERY drum stroke in the music he's discussing corresponds
: with a syllable in spoken poetry. A drum pattern is played,
: and it corresponds with a line of verse. Thus rhythms may
: interlock and create multiple, simultaneous layers of textual
: meaning as well as a complex poly-rhythmic structure. I
: continue:
Isn't the above true with Vilayat Khan's "Gayai Ang"? So what's unique and
different about this aspect of African drumming?
: When I have taught some of my ICM colleagues African
: rhythms, they have been astonished at the extraordinary
: difficulty involved in sustaining even a simple pattern in
: the middle of a polyrhythmic texture. Even a highly gifted
: tabla player said "this is harder than anything I have ever
: tried."
Rythmn, rhytmn, and more rythmn!
Daniel Fuchs
>
> In article <6t90o2$b0r$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> aas...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >messanger. These foreigners, obviously not Indians, should be commended for
> >the pain and expense they incur to preserve ICM. I feel it is the West which
> >will become the only preserver of ICM recordings.
>
> I see, the "white man's burden" all over again, this time
> preserving Indian culture for Indians.
>
> r
Come off it....
Daniel
Daniel Fuchs
>
> WARVIJ wrote:
>
> > Surely every human being on the planet belongs to at least
> > one if not several ethnic groups, and thus surely any form
> > of music on the planet is 'ethnic.'
>
> Thus far I agree with you.
>
> > Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
> > to other forms of musical expression?
>
> Yes.
>
Oh, please... Not that nonsense again... Reminds me of our old friend
scircle...
(snip)
> On that basis, it is entirely possible to have a meaningful discussion
> about whether ICM is better than some other style. It may be that many
> of the cultural values which inform the music will be different, so that
> no exact comparison can be made. However, many will be the same. In
> particular the values of musicianship are probably almost universal: the
> ability to communicate emotional experience, the use of rhythm, tone and
> dynamic variations to color or emphasize portions.
>
> ICM is "intrinsically superior" because it gives such scope to these
> qualities. It also has a number of other features which place it very
> high on a set of criteria which would find broad approval among serious
> listeners. For example, the raga format is a productive solution to the
> structure versus invention problem. It has a lot of intellectual
> challenge for those who enjoy that aspect, without being unapproachable
> to the naive listener.
>
> It also has a number of weaknesses. Its technically very difficult to
> perform or learn, which limits the number and variety of accomplished
> artists. Both tradition, the use of a drone, and microtonal inflection
> limit (but do not eliminate) the possibilities for harmony. Its deep
> cultural roots make it harder than some styles for an outsider to
> approach.
>
> Still, on balance, the only possible competitor is WCM, with maybe West
> African music close behind. Can you seriously maintain that Cambodian
> court music or Navajo rain chants should be given equal dignity with a
> Multani performed by any competent khayaliya? If they are equal in any
> legitimate aesthetic sense, a lot of good people have wasted lifetimes of
> intense effort, including you.
This is really stupid, Toby. You obviously don't know the first thing
about Cambodian court music (neither do I, really). But how can you
seriously maintain other forms of music deserve less dignity than ICM?
You can only judge performances in this and other genres (persian,
arabian, whatever) by their own standards. As long as you don't know at
least some of the finer details of what is happening in a performance,
how can you judge it? Because you find it less pleasing to your ear?
As an example, I personally don't really enjoy Korean classical music.
But if I went and studied it, I would be able to grasp intricacies that
simply pass by my ear now, and I would probably enjoy it... I hope I am
not going too far in saying that some Korean or Japanese music is a lot
more difficult to listen for the untrained ear than ICM.
But I see absoultely no reason to state that ICM is in any way superior
to Korean music, I just happen to like (and understand) it more. The
same goes for those rainchants....
Who said recently, beauty is in the ear of the listener...?
Daniel
>
> --Toby White
Daniel Fuchs
this thread yesterday. Nothing wrong with it as long as dicussed the
existence of Alladiya Khansahib's recordings (someone I know has a
cassette with a compilation of pieces of Vaze Bua and others, the name
Alldiya Khan also appears, but I have my doubts...)
Now it has turned into another senseless discussion about the
superiority of ICM.
Warren, allow me to second you a bit, although maybe in less carefully
chosen words... Seems you're up all alone fighting an army of scircle-s
(remember that weirdo?)...
I can simply say I couldn't agree with you statements more.
Be it on the subject of ARCE (after all, they are affiliated with
AIIS..) or on the comparison of ICM with other forms music.
Why do some of those lovers of ICM so strongly stress the term
Classical...? Maybe we should define that term somewhat more clearly.
Why does the term classical make one music superior to another...? What
actually makes a music "Classical"?
You also wrote: "To the Cambodian or Navaho, our competent khyaliya's
Multani is just a lot of meaningless yowling. Does this therefore mean
they're stupider than we are? I hope not."
VERY true.... Sums it up well...
So long,
Daniel
BTW, The ARCE has moved (or is about to move) to somewhere in Goregaon
or some such south-Delhi place... The Defence colony office will remain,
however,and they have some shuttle service... I have the new address
somewhere, they sent me a letter recently.
Daniel Fuchs
>
> Hi to all music lovers
>
> >aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
>
> >an equal footing African Music which is a folk art form, with the
> >Classical Music of India.
> >
>
> certain misic forms can be compared with ICM. ICM has to be the most noble and
> technical form of classical music there is. No question about it.
> to our music.
>
Sorry, mate that's absoulute NONSENSE. Trash. Can't say it any other
way. You're no bit better than the people who announced Ravi Shankar as
"The primitive folk sounds of India" in the US a long time ago... Only
you're an indocentrist...
Why do you say ICM "has to be the most noble and technical form of
classical music there is". Has to? Why? So your subdued inferiority
complex and fear that it may, after all, be no more than equal to
others, can be kept down a little longer...? (Isn't there a lot of
inferiority complex behind "my soccer team is better than yours" or "my
country is greater than others"...? I come from Germany, folks, we've
had some of that here...)
And why is it a sign of quality that ICM is "technical"? Means nothing
and shows you may be most attracted to the crowd-pleasing gimmickry
which is so abundant in present-day ICM...
Saqib, your arrogance is really beyond limit. What do you know about
Ethiopia, and about its music? Why do you insult other nations
indirectly, just because you don't (even try to) understand their music?
That is entirely a matter of your personal narrow-mindedness... Have you
ever even heard Mongolian music?
I feel like going on at great length, but I've got to go. Awaiting your
replies...
Daniel
rpen...@hotmail.com
dfu...@stud.uni-goettingen.de wrote:
> Why do you say ICM "has to be the most noble and technical form of
> classical music there is". Has to? Why? So your subdued inferiority
> complex and fear that it may, after all, be no more than equal to
> others, can be kept down a little longer...?
>(Isn't there a lot of
> inferiority complex behind "my soccer team is better than yours" or "my
> country is greater than others"...?
No. Its just some self pride and some contempt for others.
Its a healthy and normal attitude. Just dont go to extremes and
kill people over it :)
cheer up dude.
rpen...@hotmail.com
Daniel Fuchs wrote -
>...
>Isn't there a lot of
>inferiority complex behind "my soccer team is better than yours" or "my
>country is greater than others"...?
>...
NOPE. I just see some self PRIDE and some contempt for others.
It is a healthy and normal attitude overall.
TANSEN8106
Hi to all music fans
>TANSEN8106 wrote:
>>
>> Hi to all music lovers
>>
>> >aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
>>
>> >With all your education you should know better than to compare and put on
>> >an equal footing African Music which is a folk art form, with the
>> >Classical Music of India.
>> >
>>
>> In my view Sajjad Khaliq has summed it up quite well. There is no way that
>> certain misic forms can be compared with ICM. ICM has to be the most noble
>and
>> technical form of classical music there is. No question about it.
>> By comparing music from places such as Bali, Eithiopia or Mongolia is an
>insult
>> to our music.
>>
>
>Sorry, mate that's absoulute NONSENSE. Trash. Can't say it any other
>way. You're no bit better than the people who announced Ravi Shankar as
>"The primitive folk sounds of India" in the US a long time ago... Only
>you're an indocentrist...
>
>Why do you say ICM "has to be the most noble and technical form of
>classical music there is". Has to? Why? So your subdued inferiority
>complex and fear that it may, after all, be no more than equal to
>others, can be kept down a little longer...? (Isn't there a lot of
>inferiority complex behind "my soccer team is better than yours" or "my
>country is greater than others"...? I come from Germany, folks, we've
>had some of that here...)
>
>And why is it a sign of quality that ICM is "technical"? Means nothing
>and shows you may be most attracted to the crowd-pleasing gimmickry
>which is so abundant in present-day ICM...
>
>Saqib, your arrogance is really beyond limit. What do you know about
>Ethiopia, and about its music? Why do you insult other nations
>indirectly, just because you don't (even try to) understand their music?
>That is entirely a matter of your personal narrow-mindedness... Have you
>ever even heard Mongolian music?
>
>I feel like going on at great length, but I've got to go. Awaiting your
>replies...
>
>
>Daniel
>
This is in reply to the postings done by Daniel and Warren.
Have to be quick as I've got exams next week.
I have studied and heard alot of Turkish, Persian, and Gambian music and can
say in terms of structure and technicality, Indian Music comes out on top. The
artistes are so self critical that it takes years and years of solid dedication
to perfect their art.
To my knowledge no other music form places huge empahisis on sur and lay, these
have to be perfect have to be spot on for a artiste to execute a recital and to
receive acknowledgement.
With regards to Warren's views on African music, I think ICM is way superior to
African music as the music of Africa has a strong emphasis on rhythm. The
rhythm patterns are all based on the 4 beat rhythm cycle and sometimes the 6
beat cycle. If you compare with Indian Rhythmics cycles, then one gets mind
boggling rhythm cycles such as 8.5 beat cycle, 3.75 beats, 23 beats etc etc.
Even though African music places emphasis on rhthm still, the rhytms of ICM are
far too complicated.
I was at this conference a year back which featured artistes from the muslim
world including Turkey, Egypt, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Eithiopia and
others. The thing which surprised me was the amazement of all the musicians at
how the Indo-subcontinent musicians could do all these complicated taan
patterns and produce sargams and they also were shocked to hear the tabla
players playing patterns such as "surphakta" and "Sawari " patterns. The
Eithopian and Indonesian drummers used to knock on the doors of the Indian
tabla player so that they could learn these "new" patterns.
With regards to the structure of raags. I don't know of any other music which
has complicated structure of scales. An example can be seen in raags such
Bhopali and Deskaar. They have the same notes but how they are executed is the
key. I don't know of many music forms which have this.
I also feel that we should have enough confidence in saying that ICM is the
best. I can say this because no other music has appealled to me greatly. It has
grace, style and is extremly difficult to understand.
Please note I am not saying that other forms of music are bad, they are great
in their own right but our Indian music is the best. I have no way made any
attempts to insult other music forms.If I have then I apologise for that.
People who like Korean music or even music from Mars are welcome to their views
but I know that Indian Classical Music is the best!!!!! (I know Warren, that i
have made a similar statement again which a 12 year old would make but I am in
a hurry to do some revision!!! Also I am sure that some readers who know more
about raagdaari than me can help me out)..
Take Care and best regards
Tansen8106
rpen...@hotmail.com
> this thread yesterday. Nothing wrong with it as long as dicussed the
> existence of Alladiya Khansahib's recordings (someone I know has a
> cassette with a compilation of pieces of Vaze Bua and others, the name
> Alldiya Khan also appears, but I have my doubts...)
>
> Now it has turned into another senseless discussion about the
> superiority of ICM.
>
>...
incidentally it was Warren who started this topic when he
was replying to someone objecting to the term Ethnomusicology in India.
>>Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
>>to other forms of musical expression? I don't. I just like
>>it a lot
it is a flame bait. the previous poster never said that
ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR.
can anybody defend a statement that 'all music is INTRINSICALLY EQUAL?'
whatever that means :)
buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: Fortunately or unfortunately, we can't all be scholars,
: ethnomuscologists, anthropologists or whatever, hence people like, me
: have little or no inclination to "condescend" to read works like
: Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African Sensibility". We merely hear other
: musical forms and traditions and try to make sense of them and
: appreciate them by listening. I did not have to read any scholarly
: works to appreciate Indian Classical Music, so I see no reason to read
: such works to appreciate African rythmn.
i did't either (though it has helped me deepen my understanding), but i
know of many people (some of them quite knowledgeable musicians from other
traditions) who quite definitely *don't* appreciate Indian Classical
Music, and who wouldn't appreciate it any more if they read everything
that Pt. Bhatkande ever wrote, backwards and forwards.
come to think of it, i even know of Hindustani listeners who have no time
for Carnatic and vice-versa - people who are convinced that one of the two
styles is demontrably inferior to the other.
: I'm sure you'll be in agreement that in Indian Classical Music we
: have such a unique combination of melody and rythmn as well
: as improvisation and structure.
on this i agree wholeheartedly
: I think this is the greatness of Indian Classical Music - it's balanced
: and not lacking and underdeveloped in any respect.
but on this i'd have to raise the question of functional harmony -
sounding of simultaneous notes (other than drones) is foreign to ICM. for
listeners to whom that's important, ICM will seem particularly
underdeveloped.
: Not so. I've heard it said that music is a universal language. I did not
: have to learn the language of Indian Classical Music to appreciate it, so
: your analogy is not valid.
for you, but a lot of people not only would have to learn the language in
order to appreciate it, but find ICM distasteful enough that they'll never
make the effort. i find their point of view lamentable and unfortunate,
but i can't deny their existence.
ajb
ps. it's nice to see a thread on this group wherein people can disagree
(sometimes even fairly vehemently) without degenerating into a flame war.
let's continue to keep rmic civil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Buhr buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Savour the Irony! bu...@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca
http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger
Daniel Fuchs
>
> I haven't had much time to read RMIC recently,
>
and
> Why do some of those lovers of ICM so strongly stress the term
> Classical...? Maybe we should define that term somewhat more clearly.
> Why does the term classical make one music superior to another...? What
> actually makes a music "Classical"?
>
You can see here that I've not even been following the thread abot what
makes a tradition classical... Gotta check Dejanews...
Daniel
Daniel Fuchs
>
> In article <35FFFB...@stud.uni-goettingen.de>,
> dfu...@stud.uni-goettingen.de wrote:
> > I haven't had much time to read RMIC recently, so I just browsed through
> > this thread yesterday. Nothing wrong with it as long as dicussed the
> > existence of Alladiya Khansahib's recordings (someone I know has a
> > cassette with a compilation of pieces of Vaze Bua and others, the name
> > Alldiya Khan also appears, but I have my doubts...)
> >
> > Now it has turned into another senseless discussion about the
> > superiority of ICM.
> >
> > Warren, allow me to second you a bit..
> >...
>
> incidentally it was Warren who started this topic when he
> was replying to someone objecting to the term Ethnomusicology in India.
>
> >>Or do you seriously think that ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR
> >>to other forms of musical expression? I don't. I just like
> >>it a lot
>
> it is a flame bait. the previous poster never said that
> ICM is INTRINSICALLY SUPERIOR.
>
> can anybody defend a statement that 'all music is INTRINSICALLY EQUAL?'
> whatever that means :)
>
Means nothing, just like stating superiority... Different it is, but
equal in value, let us leave it there...
(Of course there is music which is intrinsically worthless, like all
Italian pop music.... ;-) ...)
Daniel
Daniel Fuchs
>
....
Interesting to hear all this, and excuse my getting heated up a little,
bhaisahib... Sorry.
Anyway, I still fail to see the need of statements about ICM being
better... Let it be a matter of personal taste. But why say it is the
greatest... Who cares...
Anyway....
Daniel
Augustus T. White
> And they're fine reasons, and I agree with most of them; I just
> take exception to a blanket categorization in value terms.
> When you use a term like 'best,' what you're doing is stating
> which aesthetic elements have the highest priority in your
> individual scale of values. This choice or prioritization
> is a personal one, as I'm sure you'll agree.
No. I wouldn't agree. That's the crux of our disagreement. My proposition is that
aesthetic values are neither universal truths nor completely personal and arbitrary.
Yours is, by logical necessity, the extreme position that aesthetic value is *entirely*
subjective and arbitrary. Once one admits to the possibility of shared values,
validated (and created) by common biology and common experience, you have to concede
that normative comparison is possible. This normative common ground is, of course, not
necessarilly absolute. It need not be imposed by god, or even applicable to all persons
at all times and places. However, to leap from lack of absolute norms to complete
subjectivity and solipsism is neither logical nor consistent with human experience.
> If you scroll through comments I've made in the past, you'll find
> that I have never used terms like 'X is better than Y." I will comment
> that particular artists are personally less or more satisfying, and
> I have certainly expressed my own aesthetic values often enough
> in this forum! But (and this is what I was trying to say to Jeff, way
> back in 'sitar wars') I do not believe that my aesthetic values are
> universally held, that anyone's aesthetic values are universal, or
> that comparison necessarily implies hierarchical ranking on a value
> scale.
I really ought to take you up on this, because I think that most readers of RMIC would
agree that you have expressed yourself in terms which would leave little doubt of the
comparative value of various artists and styles. More to the point, if you admit the
possibility of comparison, then you admit the possibility of normative comparison. It
is not necessary that the values be universal. It is only necessary that we have enough
points of agreement among ourselves about the relevant criteria.
> Kieran Egan, in his book "The Educated Mind" points out a developmental
> stage in childrens' thinking, in which they need to rank the objects
> and phenomena around them. This is essential to the formation of their
> personal values, but it must be outgrown in order to achieve a degree
> of empathy with, and understanding of, other value systems.
Warren, that's an ad hominem argument combined with an appeal to authority. Either way,
it doesn't deserve or require an answer.
> Comparison per se is of course the basis of human inquiry into the
> world around us. But comparison does not necessarily imply valuation,
> nor should it.
Of course it does and should. Biologically, what's the use of the intellectual ability
to compare without the facility to compare what is good (for the self, the family, the
tribe, the species etc.)? More interestingly, it is virtually impossible not to make
private judgments about this sort of thing. Is making such judgments, in your
weltanschauung, a universal evil? If so, we seem to have transcended your subjectivity,
have we not?
> Do you seriously believe you can make universally applicable value judgements
> of such diverse musical phenomena? Comparison of these ensembles, or of
> any others, should in my view focus on the various musical elements, as in
> "we notice that the Reggae band uses XX rhythmic structures, while the
> Seattle group uses YY rhythms. Clarity of pronunciation seems more highly
> valued in the Reggae band, but the language itself is more highly allusive
> and analogical. The harmonic progressions are similar in both, and seem to
> be derived from the following models: WW, XX and YY." etc., etc., etc.
>
> No value judgements, but informative comparison.
I've discussed the universality question above. No value judgments? Why do you select
clarity of pronounciation out of the class of all possible measurements? Harmonic
progressions? The choice of factors to compare is not arbitrary and is a fundamentally
normative act. That is, we look at clarity of pronounciation as one element of good
style (recall our off-line discussion of Padma Talwalkar years ago) and so this is a
datum we tend to measure. Your "informative comparison" is informative because it
subsumes value judgment.
> But I continue to disagree that cultural differences have to be translated
> into value scales. A form of music manifests the styles of communication
> which are intrinsic to its source culture, and we can surely agree that
> people make music together in ways that are determined by their cultural
> background, surroundings and upbringing. To rank these musics on a
> value scale, it seems to me, is therefore to rank their cultures, which is
> a classic ethnocentric mistake.
Umm. This is a complicated issue and neither of us have the time to give it the
attention it deserves. Briefly (and inadequately) you assume that music is inseparable
from source culture, an assumption that, at best, is only true in part. You also assume
that culture is an impermeable barrier, which is largely false or we wouldn't be having
this discussion on RMIC. Further, you have argued the more extreme position that
comparative normative judgments can't even be made between rock groups, which has
nothing to do with cultural differences. No, the culture bit is a red herring. Our
disagreement is along philisophical lines, very roughly your existentialism v.
my pragmatism.
> Human beings everywhere share similar experiences, yet translate them into
> musical expression in strikingly different and wonderful ways. Why should
> one way be 'better' or 'worse' than another? The more I study music from
> all over the planet, the more delighted I am at the variety of solutions which
> humans have found for the simple problems of translating experience into
> expression. This variety is surely one of the world's great wonders. We
> need not rank the flowers to enjoy the blossoming profusion of the garden.
Why *shouldn't* one be better or worse? There is no unique solution here, any more than
in any other art. Still, the Chinese Buddha on my bookcase is a hell of a lot better
art than my #3 son's scorpion monster paper weight on my desk. The artistic impulses,
techniques and objectives are quite different, but no one would have any trouble making
the appropriate value judgment. Nor is it any indignity to me, my son, or our culture
to come out the loser in that comparison.
I think I've bored everyone enough. I'll quit at this point. Please feel free to have
the last word.
--Toby White
Keith Erskine
: WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
:: The above quotes should need no riposte of any sort from me.
:: It is unlikely that Sajjad would ever condescend to read
:: a superb study like Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African
:: Sensibility," but if he were to do so, recognizing his own
:: ignorance and striving to overcome his own ethnocentrism,
:: he might learn something about the nature of other musical
:: traditions.
:
:Fortunately or unfortunately, we can't all be scholars, ethnomuscologists,
:anthropologists or whatever, hence people like, me have little or no
:inclination
:to "condescend" to read works like Chernoff's "African Rhythm, African
:Sensibility". We merely hear other musical forms and traditions and try
:to make sense of them and appreciate them by listening. I did not have to
:read any scholarly works to appreciate Indian Classical Music, so I see
:no reason to read such works to appreciate African rythmn.
If you have read no texts on ICM theory of swara, tala, etc., then
how did you learn of it? By repeated exposure or being informed
by another. One who fails to understand the delineation of swaras
in raga or adherence to tala in ICM is missing full appreciation
of the music.
If you have read nothing of African music & have had no exposure to it,
the subtle beauty of the music will most likely go unnoticed and thus
unappreciated.
:Secondly, you like everyone else, stressed only rythmn in African music.
:Where is the melody in African music, and it's strengths? I rather feel
:there is none!
How ironic Sajjad should fault African music for lack of melody when
ICM is often criticised by Westerners for it's (relative) lack of harmony,
counterpoint, & orchestration. (It is also ironic that he does not know
how to correctly spell rhythm)
The added dimensions of harmony, counterpoint, & orchestration in Western
classical music offer *me* a much broader, more powerful emotional
experience than that of ICM. The composer has a vastly wider musical
space to explore when those components of music are available.
The overwhelming beauty of the symphonic music of Debussy, Ravel,
Brahms, & Bach are the pinnacles of musical beauty to *my* ear.
As a musician, I find part of the appeal of ICM is the intellectual
exercise of ascertaining the correctness of arohana, avarohana, & tala
of a raga. This appreciation is certainly not present for first
time listeners. Similarly, the subtle change in musical texture
from different shudda/tivra/komal swaras from one raga to another
is largely missed by uninformed listeners, to whom Bhairavi & Khammaj
are indistinguishable. I suspect much of the intricacy of ICM also goes
unnoticed by Sajjad, as he is evidently proud of his lack of study
of ICM. Could Sajjad discern Desh from Khammaj, or teental from tilvada,
or ektal from chautal?
:I'm sure you'll be in agreement that in Indian Classical Music we
:have such a unique combination of melody and rythmn as well
:as improvisation and structure.
ICM is NOT unique in this respect. Western jazz (actual American
jazz, thank you very much Charlie & Dizzy) combines all of these
elements with the added dimensions of harmony & counterpoint.
:I think this is the greatness
:of Indian Classical Music - it's balanced and not lacking and
:underdeveloped in any respect.
As stated above, your indo-centrism is blinding you to the relative
absence of harmony, counterpoint, & orchestration in ICM. This
reminds of the ICM superiority thread with good old scircle, who
when questioned on these subjects said "What is counterpoint?
What is a fugue?" If familiarity breeds contempt, what does
ignorance breed? Most likely it breeds apathetic disdain.
It is not a coincidence, I think, that the individual who is defending
other genres of music in this thread, is the most accomplished performer
of ICM to post regularly to RMIC. Warren has posted most eloquently on
this subject, yet I fear his words fall on ears that are as deaf to his
reasoning as they are deaf to the beauty of other musical genres.
I just had a similar "discussion" on jazz with a WCM bigot who finally
stated "You're wrong. Most improvisation stinks". Ha!
As Warren stated so well:
:Human beings everywhere share similar experiences, yet translate them into
:musical expression in strikingly different and wonderful ways. Why should
:one way be 'better' or 'worse' than another? The more I study music from
:all over the planet, the more delighted I am at the variety of solutions which
:humans have found for the simple problems of translating experience into
:expression. This variety is surely one of the world's great wonders. We
:need not rank the flowers to enjoy the blossoming profusion of the garden.
I joked with Warren that "Actually, we do rank the (flowers) when we weed the
garden". The definition of a "weed" is NOT an intrinsic property of certain
plants. It is merely a plant we personally do not wish to have in our garden.
Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A prominent novel by Pirsig,
"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", astutely concludes "Quality
is not an intrinsic property. Quality is an interaction between a product
and the user of the product". What use is a fine watchmaking tool to a
person who knows not how to use it? What use is the music of Beethoven
or Mian Tansen to a deaf man? What use is the finest painting to a blind
person?
I have no qualms with those who wish to sow only ICM in their musical garden,
yet I personally would never plant a garden of my own with only daffodils,
nor do I care to hear someone assert "Daffodils are the most beautiful",
particularly when they have never bothered to closely observe any other
flower.
Flowers of different color makes the garden more beautiful when viewed
as a whole, or when individual flowers are viewed contrasted to a complementary
backdrop. Similarly, I choose to listen to music of almost all genres -
Western classical, jazz, rock, electronic, as well as Indian, African, etc.
When I put on an ICM CD after listening to a jazz CD, the wonderful contrast
heightens the beauty of both for me. Vive le difference!
Keith Erskine
I don't speak for HP, and vice-versa.
Mkhelkar
I hope we can get back to regular discussions on thi sthread instead of the
current track. As Daniel said, about Alladiya Khan's recording existing, after
my original post about Bhaskar BUwa Bhakle, one gentleman wrote to me saying he
has what may be Buwa's recording. I have suggested to him to post it on the
group. I can't violate his privacy. I have no way of know ing the
authenticity.
If such recording exists, as Ravi Pendkar said, they should be treated as
antiques and be preserved for future. Who is archiving these in America or
Europe?
Happy collecting. But I hope you share with others.
Mukund Khelkar
Mkhelkar
Daniel,
Would you kindlylet me know the person who has the recoridng of Alladiya Khan
with Vaze Buwa's recordings? If you have any such recordings, I would like to
know whetehr you can make a copy for me? I can copy somethihng for you.
Regards,
Mukund
Ashok
>
>Hi to all music lovers
>
>
>>Has T8016 posted the results of his/her/its previous survey (vocalists)?
>>I only remember seeing various expectation-building annoncements that the
>>results are fascinating, but don't remember seeing the results.
>
>Ashok ji, I did post the results for the Fav. vocalist survey and if my memory
>serves me correct Amir Khsb had the most votes followed by Pandit Bhimsen
>Joshi.
>
>
>Tansen8106
It was not carried by Zippo. Nobody I have checked with has seen it either.
Can you re-post the results article?
Ashok
PS: I find it incredible that you don't trust your memory on the survey
results! It is not as if you do these surveys every week.
rpen...@hotmail.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>...
> Can you re-post the results article?
>
> Ashok
I found it on dejanews.
regards
Ravi Pendkar
>>Greetings to all music lovers
>>I have finally found the time to post the results on the survey which I
>>conducted on this newsgroup concerning the favourite vocalist among the
>>readers.
>>Pandit Bhimsen Joshi: 20%
>>Ustad Amir Khansahib: 18%
>>Pandit Mallikarjun Mansur: 15%
>>Ustad Fayyaz Khan: 8%
>>Ustad Ghulam Ali Khansahib: 8%
>>Pandit Kumar Gandharva: 7%
>>Pandit Jasraj: 3%
>>Others: (including Smt. Subbulaxmi,Pt LAxman Krishanarao, Khsb Abdul Karim
>>Khan, Pandit DV Paluskar etc)
>>So the Kirana maestro Pandit Bhimsen Joshi is the favourite vocalist of this
>>newsgroup!!! He is a genius, his recitals of Maru Bihaag, Puriya Dhansari and
>>Multani will remain embedded in my memory for a long time to come.
>>In total there were nearly 80 replies which is very good for this newsgroup.
>>I would like to say thanx to everyone who participated in the survey.
>>Regards
>>Tansen8106
Sajjad Khaliq
: Anyway, I still fail to see the need of statements about ICM being
: better... Let it be a matter of personal taste. But why say it is the
: greatest... Who cares...
We do.
The fact is, and Miyan Tansen has partially alluded to it; Indian
Classical Muisc is a fusion of the Arabic, Persian, Turkish and of course
Indian traditions. The sum of the whole is greater than the parts
themselves.
Isn't this what progress, art, culture and science all about? Borrowing
ideas and progressing the art and/or science further, to produce a new
higher order? If it wasn't for this progress we'd be still living in
caves. And that's what makes Indian Classical Music great, and
possibly the greatest tradition and system, and even western observers
have said that.
How much have the African systems of music progressed and borrowed from
other system? Not much, if at all, I fear.
Sajjad Khaliq
: but on this i'd have to raise the question of functional harmony -
: sounding of simultaneous notes (other than drones) is foreign to ICM. for
: listeners to whom that's important, ICM will seem particularly
: underdeveloped.
I would not regard this lack of harmony as a sign of underdevelopment. How
is it possible to introduce harmony without upsetting the other elements
in this mix (melody, ryhtmn etc)?
: ps. it's nice to see a thread on this group wherein people can disagree
: (sometimes even fairly vehemently) without degenerating into a flame war.
Perhaps it says something about the participants herein.
WARVIJ
I wrote a statement yesterday and it seems to have gotten lost in AOL-space.
Perhaps
it'll show up. I asked my newsreader to copy it to Toby -- did you get it?
Sajjad writes:
>Isn't this what progress, art, culture and science all about? Borrowing
>ideas and progressing the art and/or science further, to produce a new
>higher order?
I would disagree vehemently. According to your supposition, the
more recent the art, the more "progress" is represented. Thus the
more modern the music, the better. This is an inane formulation
as I'm sure you'll agree.
Rather, music which is 'robust' (in evolutionary terms) stands the
test of time, contributing meaningfully to its source culture while
steadily evolving refinements within the aesthetic parameters
deemed important by the culture and by individual musicians.
Unsuccessful music generally doesn't last long, because it fails
the tests of functionality within its source culture. There may
well have been experiments with harmonization centuries ago
in Indian tradition, but we have no substantive evidence to that
effect. Thus, either there were no such experiements, or their
results weren't useful to the cultural requirements of the time.
>If it wasn't for this progress we'd be still living in
>caves. And that's what makes Indian Classical Music great, and
>possibly the greatest tradition and system, and even western observers
>have said that.
The persistent use of '...even western observers have said...' is
curious to me. Why is the opinion of western observers particularly
important? It isn't to me, certainly! Westerners have said a lot
of narrowly judgemental things about music of other cultures, too,
as we all know. Was it Vivek who reminded us of British ethnocentrism
in the colonial period?
>How much have the African systems of music
>progressed and borrowed from
>other system? Not much, if at all, I fear.
Enormously. The musical systems of the many African countries
and of the African diaspora have absorbed more influences than
most other systems of music anywhere. Furthermore, most of these
forms of music have demonstrated tremendous robustness, providing
a richly varied array of syncretic adaptations to new cultural
circumstances while meeting the multiply varied requirements
of their source culture and their new contexts.
I have only studied West African music (which includes
songs with exquisite melodies as well as richly complex rhythmic
structures and wonderful dance movements) for 8-10 years, so
I don't consider myself qualified to speak with great authority.
I do think I've studied it more than you, Sajjad, and may have
greater insight into its variety.
I would further suggest that my ability to evaluate and perform
Hindustani music has not been adversely affected by my interest
in, and understanding of, African music (any more than my ability
to speak and understand English is adversely affected by my study
of Hindi).
Thus -- I find beauty and meaning in a musical system which you
rashly dismiss as underdeveloped and primitive noise-making. Am
I deluded? Surely not. I think of myself instead as lucky, for I
learned early on in my musical life that ANY robust musical culture
offers a wide range of sophisticated intellectual and artistic
challenges and delights to an open-minded listener.
However, these delights and challenges can be missed, if we look
(or listen) in the wrong place, with the wrong set of ears. Just
like the fellow who lost his wallet in an alley, but looked for it
under the streetlight (because the light was better), humans seek
to evaluate new phenomena by analogy and comparison with what
they already know.
Sajjad evaluates African music based on a set of priorities and
judgements which are intrinsic to his love of, and familiarity with,
the principles of ICM (and this doesn't mean book knowledge, but
rather the knowledge of any experienced listener). Since African
music falls short of excellence in those qualities which serve to
define excellence in ICM, he infers that African music is intrinsically
less than excellent.
British colonialists evaluated ICM according to their standards
of excellence in music, in which functional harmony (harmonic
progression) was given a high priority. Is it any wonder that they
failed to find excellence in the music they heard in India?
When Uday Shankar angrily dismissed Mozart as "baby music" he was
evaluating an artifact of WCM according to ICM standards of
excellence, which place a much higher priority on details of melodic
variation and ornament, and complexity of rhythm. Thus, listening
to Mozart's principal melody, and noting the complete absence of
any of ICM's 'excellence-markers,' he felt justified in registering
contempt.
And, indeed, Mozart is crummy music. That is to say, Mozart is
perfectly dreadful *Indian Classical Music*. But Amir Khan is pretty
dreadful Western Classical Music, and the extraordinary cross-
rhythms of a Yoruba troupe are barely even music by ICM and WCM
standards. On the other hand, what the Yoruba musicians think
about other traditions might be equally ethnocentric.
All this talk of "which is the best" is indicative of our all-too-human
need to rank and set in order the phenomena of our daily lives. But
let us not confuse our own personal taxonomies of quality with
something universal, for this sets a precedent which ends all
too easily in a gross intolerance for the rich varieties of human
experience.
Warren Senders
atw...@concentric.net
>
> I wrote a statement yesterday and it seems to have gotten lost in
AOL-space.
> Perhaps
> it'll show up. I asked my newsreader to copy it to Toby -- did you get
it?
Nope. Probably just as well, as I have resigned from this discussion. I
am, of course, fuming and frothing at the mouth. However, I will
resolutely turn away from temptation and get back to the business of making
the world safe for sexual harassers.
--Toby White
Reply to: augw...@neosoft.com
buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
: : but on this i'd have to raise the question of functional harmony -
: : sounding of simultaneous notes (other than drones) is foreign to ICM. for
: : listeners to whom that's important, ICM will seem particularly
: : underdeveloped.
: I would not regard this lack of harmony as a sign of underdevelopment. How
: is it possible to introduce harmony without upsetting the other elements
: in this mix (melody, ryhtmn etc)?
well, you probably can't. so you may have to choose two out of three. ICM
chooses melody and rhythm. WCM chooses harmony and typically melody
(although rhythm gets a proper treatment occasionaly). i personally think
that ICM does a better job of exploring melody than WCM does, but that's
just my opinion.
rpen...@hotmail.com
war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) wrote:
>
> I wrote a statement yesterday and it seems to have gotten lost in AOL-space.
> Perhaps
> it'll show up. I asked my newsreader to copy it to Toby -- did you get it?
if this post is an indication of what you probably wrote, it must have been
too voluminous to fit on aol servers.
> Rather, music which is 'robust' (in evolutionary terms) stands the
> test of time, contributing meaningfully to its source culture while
> steadily evolving refinements within the aesthetic parameters
> deemed important by the culture and by individual musicians.
that does not exclude external influences as input to the evolution.
but it does involve judgement by people as to what is cool and what
sucks.
> ...
> The persistent use of '...even western observers have said...' is
> curious to me. Why is the opinion of western observers particularly
> important? It isn't to me, certainly! Westerners have said a lot ...
maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are a westerner.
Im not sure if thats good or bad. but I guess it was thrown in for good
measure.
> ... stuff about African Music deleted ...
> Sajjad evaluates African music based on a set of priorities and
> judgements which are intrinsic to his love of, and familiarity with,
> the principles of ICM (and this doesn't mean book knowledge, but
> rather the knowledge of any experienced listener). Since African
> music falls short of excellence in those qualities which serve to
> define excellence in ICM, he infers that African music is intrinsically
> less than excellent.
no. the you are the only poster who has used the term 'intrinsic' or
'intrinsically superior' or 'intrinsically less' in this thread.
and that too not while referring to your own position
but simpling FORCING it on others.
and then when someone goes on to say that ICM is good or that
there are some good things in ICM or ICM is the best, in good faith
and a genuine way, you follow up with endless rambling about all the
other music in the world, your grand garden of flowers analogy,
your adventures with African Music, trashing ICM in subtle ways...
> ...lots of stuff about who bashed who, long ago, deleted...
> All this talk of "which is the best" is indicative of our all-too-human
> need to rank and set in order the phenomena of our daily lives. But
> let us not confuse our own personal taxonomies of quality with
> something universal, for this sets a precedent which ends all
> too easily in a gross intolerance for the rich varieties of human
> experience.
>
> Warren Senders
>
very prescriptive. yet it shows your gross intolerance for the possiblity
of some human experiencing pride for a music for whatever reason.
Its very easy to stand on a high pedastal, see everybody, everything
as equal and beat everyone on ground level with the long stick of political
correctness, for failing to rise above all-too-human needs.
its not a very good means for meaningful discussion.
but you can't sit up there for very long.
Im waiting for you to come down and then we can regurgitate for you
all these lectures we had to endure. am sure it will have a salutary
effect on you then. (oh my God, is this what Ethnomusicology is?)
maybe when you get back to bashing Jasraj, or that young Sitarist,
or pyrotechnics... we'll get you ;)
have a nice day
regards
Ravi Pendkar
Ajay P Nerurkar
: incidentally it was Warren who started this topic when he
: was replying to someone objecting to the term Ethnomusicology in India.
Colonel Senders` silence on the original issue is deafening. Clearly,
the colonel knows when his cause is well and truly lost. :-)
Ajay
PS: The first person to post a spelling flame pointing out the Senders/Sanders
distinction gets an all-expenses-paid trip to the nearest KFC location. No
purchase necessary.
jawa...@hotmail.com
In article <6tufrf$ihm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
rpen...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <19980918121134...@ng86.aol.com>,
> war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) wrote:
> Its very easy to stand on a high pedastal, see everybody, everything
> as equal and beat everyone on ground level with the long stick of political
> correctness, for failing to rise above all-too-human needs.
<...stuff deleted...>
>
> maybe when you get back to bashing Jasraj, or that young Sitarist,
> or pyrotechnics...
I respect Warren and in this particular thread I (almost) agree
with him (the discussion in this thread is on the lines of
"Physics is the best science and definitely so when
compared to Chemistry!!") ... But Ravi, I do agree with you
completely about the couple of statements you have made above!!
Regards,
Abhinav Jawadekar
WARVIJ
>very prescriptive. yet it shows your gross intolerance for the possiblity
>of some human experiencing pride for a music for whatever reason.
Oh come on, Ravi! Of course I'm proud of what I do. I just don't think
putting some other form of music down is going to help.
W
WARVIJ
>Colonel Senders` silence on the original issue is deafening. Clearly,
>the colonel knows when his cause is well and truly lost. :-)
Or when it's futile to attempt further clarification. We can talk
at greater length, but as Ravi's post points out, most of us have
wearied of the topic. I don't, because it's the central topic of
my life, but I can hardly expect anyone else to share my passion.
WS
ps -- if I attempt clarification of the spelling of my own name,
does that get me some free chicken?
WARVIJ
>...endless rambling about all the
>other music in the world, your grand garden of flowers analogy,
>your adventures with African Music, trashing ICM in subtle ways...
Ravi, I assumed you knew me better than that! "Trashing ICM" indeed!
WS
sure...@hotmail.com
jawa...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> <...stuff deleted...>
> >
> > maybe when you get back to bashing Jasraj, or that young Sitarist,
> > or pyrotechnics...
>
> completely about the couple of statements you have made above!!
>
There is a big difference between critiqueing Jasraj's music and criticizing
"African" music (which is probably as diverse as Indian music).
There is also a difference between one who knows what he is talking about and
the other who admittedly has no understanding of the music.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
suresh
il_...@yahoo.com
tanse...@aol.com (TANSEN8106) wrote:
> Hi to all music lovers
>
> >ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok)
>
> >Has T8016 posted the results of his/her/its previous survey (vocalists)?
> >I only remember seeing various expectation-building annoncements that the
> >results are fascinating, but don't remember seeing the results.
>
> Ashok ji, I did post the results for the Fav. vocalist survey and if my memory
> serves me correct Amir Khsb had the most votes followed by Pandit Bhimsen
> Joshi.
>
> Regards
> Tansen8106
I think the result was the other way round. Bhimsen
Joshi (at 20%) being slightly ahead of Amir Khansb.
(at 18%).
Afzal
Sajjad Khaliq
: >Colonel Senders` silence on the original issue is deafening. Clearly,
: >the colonel knows when his cause is well and truly lost. :-)
: ps -- if I attempt clarification of the spelling of my own name,
: does that get me some free chicken?
No. Not untill you admit to the instrisic superiority of Indian Classical
Music!!!
Sajjad Khaliq
: If you have read no texts on ICM theory of swara, tala, etc., then
: how did you learn of it? By repeated exposure or being informed
: by another.
This has been a revelation! After being an avid listener of Indian
Classical Music, I now realise that I should have read some texts onthe
theory BEFORE I started listening to it? Is that what you are saying?
MY interest in Indian Classical Music developed through listening to it
first, and then as the interest grew, then I was motivated on reading and
learning about the theory.
: One who fails to understand the delineation of swaras
: in raga or adherence to tala in ICM is missing full appreciation
: of the music.
: If you have read nothing of African music & have had no exposure to it,
: the subtle beauty of the music will most likely go unnoticed and thus
: unappreciated.
And so tell me what texts those Africans in the jungles read FIRST before
they start listening and appreciating their own music? Or for that matter,
the hundreds of common people in India who sit and enjoy Indian Classical
Music in the open air at the conferences?
: The overwhelming beauty of the symphonic music of Debussy, Ravel,
: Brahms, & Bach are the pinnacles of musical beauty to *my* ear.
Absolutely. Beauty is in the ear of the listener!
: As a musician, I find part of the appeal of ICM is the intellectual
: exercise of ascertaining the correctness of arohana, avarohana, & tala
: of a raga.
I'm very happy for you that Indian Classical Music satisfies your
intellectual cravings.
: This appreciation is certainly not present for first
: time listeners. Similarly, the subtle change in musical texture
: from different shudda/tivra/komal swaras from one raga to another
: is largely missed by uninformed listeners, to whom Bhairavi & Khammaj
: are indistinguishable. I suspect much of the intricacy of ICM also goes
: unnoticed by Sajjad, as he is evidently proud of his lack of study
: of ICM. Could Sajjad discern Desh from Khammaj, or teental from tilvada,
: or ektal from chautal?
The answer to the first part of your question is yes, and to the second
part is no.
To me Indian Classical Music is just as satisfying as a lovely hot curry
or biryani, just as Ali Akbar Khan said "..music is food for the soul..".
The fact that I do not know the first thing about cooking, does not
prevent me from enjoying it's taste any less than my wife or mother who do
know how to prepare Indian food. So why should I not be able to enjoy
Indian Classical Music, if I don't know an ektal from a surphakta?
Sajjad Khaliq
: I think the result was the other way round. Bhimsen
: Joshi (at 20%) being slightly ahead of Amir Khansb.
: (at 18%).
: Afzal
That's what my re-collection is too.
Krishna Rayaprolu
years I had been listening to a lot of Jazz. So I cannot help comparing Jazz
to ICM. There are a few elements which are very similar in both and there
are a few others which are quite the opposite. Some of my observations:
1) Rhythm:
Jazz rhythms can get as intricate as the ICM ones and are both strong
in polyrhythms. Jazz seems to have less emphasis on the meter but the pulse
is more pronounced.
2) Swing:
Jazz rhythms have a certain "swing" in them. ICM rhythms don't seem
to have this swing and are a little less "exciting". However ICM rhythms
seem to be more meditative in nature - that is the listener can get carried
away with the rhythms and hence suite the ICM melodies which are raga based.
I don't see a lot of difference in the rhythm patterns themseleves between
the two musics yet there is a difference in the moods. I wonder what the
technical difference is.
3) Ragas vs modal/blues music:
Most of Jazz is heavily harmonic. Probably the closest to ragas is
the modal music (Miles Davis in the late 50s) and the Blues-style music. I
would like to know what the difference is between Blues style and a raga. In
a sense can we call Blues a raga? Blues is also based on fixed-scale (5-note
blues scale), has bent notes (blue notes) and focusses on developing a
specific feeling (the Blues feeling).
4) Improvisation:
Improvisation is important in both. But because of the raga
structure and the tradition ICM improvisation has a predetermined goal of
developing the raga. Jazz doesn't *need* to have an overall goal in the
improvisations. Infact some of the freer types generate completely different
moods as the music develops and the music is let free to take its own
coarse. Many times the artists themselves don't know where the music ends up
taking them. Freedom also seems to give them more individuality. The
difference between two Indian artists singing the same raga is, IMO, less
than two Jazz artists improvising from the same song. The opposite seems to
be true if the two Jazz artists are improvising in a blues-style.
5) Tone:
Many Jazz artists use the tone itself as one means of communicating
with the listener. There is nothing like a perfect tone nor a wrong tone.
Some use a harsh tone by overblowing (Coltrane), some use a tone which is
slightly out-of-tune (Jackie Mclean), some have an inherent "cry" in the tone
(Wayne Shorter) and so on. Some of the seemingly wrong tones are used to
increase the tension in the music.
6) Surprises:
Surprises in music are very vital to Jazz and also to other Western
musics. Harmony itself has inherent surprises in it. But I guess surprises
and ragas don't go too well.
7) Bent notes:
Surprisingly some of the Jazz artists (Sonny Rollins) use a lot of
bent notes. But those are not as well defined and complex as the ICM
Gamakas.
8) Melody removed from rhythm:
This is one of the important commonalities that Jazz and ICM seem to
share which is not as prevelant in other forms of music. If the artist has a
beautiful melodic idea which is better if stretched out, the artist doesn't
mind going out of rhythm for a brief time, exploit the melody thoroughly and
come back to the rhythm. I wonder if this is a necessary feature of any
improvisation based music.
Some of the points above are very subjective and I had to make sweeping
generalizations. But that is what newsgroups are meant for! I would like to
see comments and more input on this topic from people who listen to both
musics.
Madhav "Krishna"
Paul Craig Sanwald
:to ICM. There are a few elements which are very similar in both and there
: are a few others which are quite the opposite. Some of my observations:
Hi. I come from a Jazz background but am currently taking a course in
ICM and attending a lot of concerts, talking with performers, etc.
Your observations were good, I thought, I had also recognized a likeness
between jazz and ICM but don't know enought about ICM to articulate
it.
:
: 3) Ragas vs modal/blues music:
: Most of Jazz is heavily harmonic. Probably the closest to ragas is
:the modal music (Miles Davis in the late 50s) and the Blues-style music. I
: would like to know what the difference is between Blues style and a raga. In
: a sense can we call Blues a raga? Blues is also based on fixed-scale (5-note
: blues scale), has bent notes (blue notes) and focusses on developing a
: specific feeling (the Blues feeling).
Kind of, but blues doesn't always use a 5 note scale. Ragas have to
stick within the scale, right? It also seems to me that blues has
is a wider cantegory than one raga, because it can be happy, sad,
nasty, etc. Whereas my understanding is a raga is supposed to contain
one specific mood. is that correct?
:
: 4) Improvisation:
: Improvisation is important in both. But because of the raga
: structure and the tradition ICM improvisation has a predetermined goal of
: developing the raga. Jazz doesn't *need* to have an overall goal in the
: improvisations. Infact some of the freer types generate completely different
:
Well, IMHO, most good jazz starts out one place and ends up in another.
So in that sense, it *is* about development of melodic, harmonic and
rythmic notions.
:
: 6) Surprises:
: musics. Harmony itself has inherent surprises in it. But I guess surprises
: and ragas don't go too well.
:
:). That's the impression I got from some of the performers we talked to
: 7) Bent notes:
: Surprisingly some of the Jazz artists (Sonny Rollins) use a lot of
: bent notes. But those are not as well defined and complex as the ICM
: Gamakas.
:
Definitely. Even though I think many great jazz players (Bird comes to
mind) have a very distinct set of "Gamakas" that they use, although they
are nowhere near as complex as the ones in ICM.
--paul
sz...@my-dejanews.com
aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Sajjad Khaliq) wrote:
[ ... snip ... ]
> No. Not untill you admit to the instrisic superiority of Indian Classical
> Music!!!
As someone much smarter than myself pointed out, why are so many
people, living in so many different cultures, so wrong about the
value of the works of any other group?
- Steven
Marc Sabatella
"Improvisation: Its Nature And Practice In Music", available from Da
Capo Press. Bailey (a freely improvising guitarist with roots in jazz
and other forms of music) gives a survey of how different styles of
music have used improvisation over the centuries, and devotes a lot of
attention to Indian music and to jazz.
In article <6u5pl4$pa5$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>,
pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu (Paul Craig Sanwald) wrote:
>Krishna Rayaprolu (kri...@staff.prodigy.com) wrote:
>: 3) Ragas vs modal/blues music:
>: Most of Jazz is heavily harmonic. Probably the closest to ragas is
>:the modal music (Miles Davis in the late 50s) and the Blues-style music. I
>: would like to know what the difference is between Blues style and a raga. In
>: a sense can we call Blues a raga? Blues is also based on fixed-scale (5-note
>: blues scale), has bent notes (blue notes) and focusses on developing a
>: specific feeling (the Blues feeling).
>
>Kind of, but blues doesn't always use a 5 note scale. Ragas have to
>stick within the scale, right? It also seems to me that blues has
>is a wider cantegory than one raga, because it can be happy, sad,
>nasty, etc. Whereas my understanding is a raga is supposed to contain
>one specific mood. is that correct?
I don't see these as being entirely at odds. A given blues
performance generally has a specific mood, just as a given raga might.
So the whole category of blues might not map to a single raga, I'd
say the general idea of blues maps to the general idea of ragas, and
one given blues performance might map to one given raga.
Also, while few blues performances limit themselves to a specific 5-note
scale, it might well be true that 95% of what is played comes from just
8 notes, which puts it more in line with a raga.
I think one of the main reasons to see blues as a particularly strong
analogue for ragas is the relatively limited harmonic palette in blues
versus other forms of jazz, at least, if you define harmony in Western
European terms of chord progressions. Especially the fact that the one
scale covers all the chords that tend to be used. Also the fact that
the scale itself contains tension tones and implies particular types of
melodies, which is how I tend to see ragas, although I am hardly an
expert. There are some melodies that, while drawn from the blues scale,
just don't sound particularly bluesy, and other lines that do. When
I've played with Indian musicians, and they are describing the raga to
me, they often use similar terminology. They'll talk about the
important of emphasizing certain notes within the raga, and certain
characteristic "riffs" that define the sound of the raga.
>: 6) Surprises:
>: musics. Harmony itself has inherent surprises in it. But I guess surprises
>: and ragas don't go too well.
>
>:). That's the impression I got from some of the performers we talked to
And jazz has been characterized (wish I knew by whom) as "the sound of
surprise".
>: 7) Bent notes:
>: Surprisingly some of the Jazz artists (Sonny Rollins) use a lot of
>: bent notes. But those are not as well defined and complex as the ICM
>: Gamakas.
>
>Definitely. Even though I think many great jazz players (Bird comes to
>mind) have a very distinct set of "Gamakas" that they use, although they
>are nowhere near as complex as the ones in ICM.
Largely, I think, because jazz players are coming from a 12-tone
chromatic scale and bending a few pitches here and there, whereas Indian
musicians may be coming from a much more finely tuned scale in the first
place.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
tst...@businessobjects.com
kri...@staff.prodigy.com wrote:
> I come from an Indian classical music (ICM) background and in the last few
> years I had been listening to a lot of Jazz. So I cannot help comparing Jazz
> 2) Swing:
> Jazz rhythms have a certain "swing" in them. ICM rhythms don't seem
> to have this swing and are a little less "exciting". However ICM rhythms
> seem to be more meditative in nature - that is the listener can get carried
> away with the rhythms and hence suite the ICM melodies which are raga based.
> I don't see a lot of difference in the rhythm patterns themseleves between
> the two musics yet there is a difference in the moods. I wonder what the
> technical difference is.
I'm no expert but I listen to ICM and have looked into some of these
things... ICM rhythm is based on additive cycles that can be quite long; jazz
meter, in general, is based on smaller cells. You can feel the whole rhythmic
unit in most jazz performances, although not all; in ICM if you're not
counting you'll have trouble finding your place in the cycle. ICM rhythm
patterns are more intricate but even with the intensely imaginative
improvisations tabla players practice, they must respect the overall
structure very precisely; in addition, it isn't usually considered tasteful
to upstage the solo voice, whereas in jazz this doesn't have to be a problem
at all (especially if it's the drummer's band).
>
> 3) Ragas vs modal/blues music:
> Most of Jazz is heavily harmonic. Probably the closest to ragas is
> the modal music (Miles Davis in the late 50s) and the Blues-style music. I
> would like to know what the difference is between Blues style and a raga. In
> a sense can we call Blues a raga? Blues is also based on fixed-scale (5-note
> blues scale), has bent notes (blue notes) and focusses on developing a
> specific feeling (the Blues feeling).
Ah, but the blues feeling is *not* a specific feeling. It is a wide variety
of feelings! You can have happy blues, sad blues, poignant blues, angry
blues, just about anything can be expressed in a blues. It has certain
musically expressed "feelingnesses" that are specifically bluesy, but there
isn't the same specificity as the feeling assigned to each raga.
>
> [SNIP]
> 8) Melody removed from rhythm:
> This is one of the important commonalities that Jazz and ICM seem to
> share which is not as prevelant in other forms of music. If the artist has a
> beautiful melodic idea which is better if stretched out, the artist doesn't
> mind going out of rhythm for a brief time, exploit the melody thoroughly and
> come back to the rhythm. I wonder if this is a necessary feature of any
> improvisation based music.
I don't hear it as "removed from rhythm." Often it still has a very close
relationship to the rhythm, but one that is more abstract or complex... I find
this true in both jazz and ICM.
- Tom Storer
"When you're swinging, swing some more." - Theloniousji Monk
Michael Fitzgerald
Sabatella) wrote:
>And jazz has been characterized (wish I knew by whom) as "the sound of
>surprise".
Whitney Balliet of The New Yorker - at least he's the one who's got a
book called that.
Mike
Sajjad Khaliq
: 3) Ragas vs modal/blues music:
: Most of Jazz is heavily harmonic. Probably the closest to ragas is
: the modal music (Miles Davis in the late 50s) and the Blues-style music. I
: would like to know what the difference is between Blues style and a raga. In
: a sense can we call Blues a raga? Blues is also based on fixed-scale (5-note
: blues scale), has bent notes (blue notes) and focusses on developing a
: specific feeling (the Blues feeling).
A good example of a rag having a Blues feel to is Ustad Rais Khan's CD of
a live performance in 1985 in London, of Rag Ek Prakar ki Kauns ("a kind
of Kauns"). I highly recommend it.
tst...@businessobjects.com
ma...@outsideshore.com (Marc Sabatella) wrote:
> [SNIP]> And jazz has been characterized (wish I knew by whom) as "the sound
> of surprise".
That was Whitney Balliett of the New Yorker.
- Tom Storer
"When you're swinging, swing some more." - Thelonious Monk
Krishna Rayaprolu
tst...@businessobjects.com wrote:
> things... ICM rhythm is based on additive cycles that can be quite long; jazz
> meter, in general, is based on smaller cells. You can feel the whole rhythmic
This part I fully agree with you. Polyrhythms always deal with setting a groove,
then deviating from the main rhythmic structure weaving different patterns and then
getting back to the original groove. It is true that in ICM rhythms you have to
wait longer to get back to the groove. Jazz in general has smaller waiting time
(or smaller cells as you put it).
> unit in most jazz performances, although not all; in ICM if you're not
> counting you'll have trouble finding your place in the cycle.
This part I have to disagree. While there are quite a few ICM performances which
tend to be academic (where you have to count to appreciate) that is not true with
the good performances. It just takes more listening for ICM rhythms to get into
our body (as against the intellect).
> structure very precisely; in addition, it isn't usually considered tasteful
> to upstage the solo voice, whereas in jazz this doesn't have to be a problem
> at all (especially if it's the drummer's band).
Probably. It is a matter of convention. In Jazz there could be entire
performances where the drummer leads the band. In ICM the percussionist takes the
lead only in certain portions of the performance.
Madhav Krishna
Krishna Rayaprolu
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> In article <6u5pl4$pa5$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>,
> pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu (Paul Craig Sanwald) wrote:
> >
> >Kind of, but blues doesn't always use a 5 note scale. Ragas have to
> >stick within the scale, right? It also seems to me that blues has
> >is a wider cantegory than one raga, because it can be happy, sad,
> >nasty, etc. Whereas my understanding is a raga is supposed to contain
> >one specific mood. is that correct?
>
Not all ragas stick within the scale either. Eg; Sindhu Bhairavi (Carnatic) cannot
be defined by a set of permissible notes. When I say feeling or mood of a raga I am
not referring to the physical moods like sad, happy etc. I am referring to the
musical mood - that distinctive flavor of the raga which one can identify without
the need of any analysis. In that sense Blues also has a very distinctive flavor
and we can make no mistake that it is Blues when we hear it.
> I don't see these as being entirely at odds. A given blues
> performance generally has a specific mood, just as a given raga might.
> So the whole category of blues might not map to a single raga, I'd
> say the general idea of blues maps to the general idea of ragas, and
> one given blues performance might map to one given raga.
>
> Also, while few blues performances limit themselves to a specific 5-note
> scale, it might well be true that 95% of what is played comes from just
> 8 notes, which puts it more in line with a raga.
>
> I think one of the main reasons to see blues as a particularly strong
> analogue for ragas is the relatively limited harmonic palette in blues
I am not sure if I can agree with you or Paul that blues is wider than one raga.
Ragas themselves could be rated based on how wide they are. While blues may be
wider and stronger than many ragas I find it limited compared to some of the vast
ragas like the Carnatic Todi, Bhairavi, Kambhoji or Sindhu-Bhairavi. I am defining
width as the number of different ways in which you could bring out the same
feeling. I am only taking that subset of the so-called-blues-based-pieces which are
really bluesy. Even among them I am considering only those lines/phrases which
contribute to the blues feeling. Both traditional blues and bluesy Jazz use a lot
of standard expressions/phrases in order to extract the blues feeling. This
happens a lot in several ICM ragas too but the wider ragas are relatively freed from
cliches. Since there is more freedom in Jazz the artists don't seem to stick to the
bluesy lines all the time. I find that the Jazz artist frequently deviates from the
bluesy lines to create his individual expressions and then gets back to the bluesy
lines to continue the blues feeling.
Madhav Krishna
tst...@businessobjects.com
kri...@staff.prodigy.com wrote:
>
> [SNIP] While there are quite a few ICM performances which
> tend to be academic (where you have to count to appreciate) that is not true
> with the good performances. It just takes more listening for ICM rhythms to
> get into our body (as against the intellect).
OK, I'll buy that. I guess I was basing my comments on my own experience - as
a neophyte, I can't yet follow the rhythmic cycle in ICM very exactly without
approaching it as a scientific experiment, lab coat on and clipboard in hand.
;-) But there are definitely moments in a raga that announce the
ending/rebeginning of a cycle, so there are times when melodic clues help me
feel it.
> It is a matter of convention. In Jazz there could be entire
> performances where the drummer leads the band. In ICM the percussionist
> takes the lead only in certain portions of the performance.
Precisely. And many of the older ICM masters decry the younger generation's
temptation to indulge in flashy pyrotechnics. Zakir Hussain is adored in the
West largely because he fits the Western role of heroic soloist, but the more
serious ICM aficionados I know prefer Zakir when he uses his talents in a
"properly" subdued fashion.