Kanada-o Vitthaloo
ramaprasad_k_v
In article , parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
>
>
>Namashkar.
>
>The following is a splendid exegetic effort by the lovely Smt. Aruna Donde
>of Denver of a masterpiece of a composition. Written by Dnyaneshwar (who
>else?), it is set to tune in Raga Yaman Kalyan by Hridaynath Mangeshkar and
>then transported to the altar of perfection by Asha Bhonsle. Seldom does a
>composition of such ethereal chemistry come by. Asha has truly surpassed
>herself here. There are a few holes in translation to be plugged below.
>Hopefully someone will step in and do the needful.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>r
>
>*************************************************************************
><<<<<< Attached TEXT file named "kanadao vitthaloo" follows >>>>>>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Pandurang Kanti, divya tej zalakati, ratna kil fakati prabha
>Aganit lavanya, tej punjalale, na varnave te techi shobha
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Pandurang kanti = Dark skin, Divya tej = divine aura, Zalakti = dazzles
>ratna kil = rays of gemstones, fakati= spread, prabha = light
>aganit = un-accounted, lavanya = beauty , tej punjalale = light blossomed
>na varnave = unable to describe , te techi = that, shobha = beauty
>
>
pAnDu rang = fair , white colour not dark !! ( pAndra)
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Kanada-o Vitthaloo Karnatakoo, Yene maj lavi-yala vedhu
>--------------------------------------------------------
>This verse has me stumped. I believe khunanchi palavi means eyelids,
>aalavilya means beseech. I have heard Professor Ram Shevalkar say that
>Kanada-o Vitthaloo also means something else. I wish I remembered.
>
>
One opinion goes like " kAnadA -0 - viTThalu karnAtaku" refers to
the viTThala, god of the Kannada speaking region and belonging to
KarnAtaka. Could be true as in medival days the terms Karnataka and
Maharashtra have been interchangably used and they refered to the same
region between the Krishna and the Godavari rivers. The Chalukyas had
their capital in present day present day Karnataka and their kingdom
spanned upto as for as Ajintha and Ellora. Similarly Rashtrakutas who ruled
from present day Latur (Maharshtra ) and Malkhed ( karnataka) also
had this area under their control.The fact that chAlukya's and rAshtrakUtas
were Kannada speaking, is used to support this opinion.
Added to this , there is a belief that the Panduranga Vithala of Pandarapur is
none other than the Vijaya Vitthala of Vijayanagar, reinstalled during the AD
1565 battle. But anyway, the time of Jnyaneshvar precedes this time.
Ramaprasad K V
Rajan P. Parrikar
Namashkar.
The following is a splendid exegetic effort by the lovely Smt. Aruna Donde
of Denver of a masterpiece of a composition. Written by Dnyaneshwar (who
else?), it is set to tune in Raga Yaman Kalyan by Hridaynath Mangeshkar and
then transported to the altar of perfection by Asha Bhonsle. Seldom does a
composition of such ethereal chemistry come by. Asha has truly surpassed
herself here. There are a few holes in translation to be plugged below.
Hopefully someone will step in and do the needful.
Regards,
r
*************************************************************************
<<<<<< Attached TEXT file named "kanadao vitthaloo" follows >>>>>>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Pandurang Kanti, divya tej zalakati, ratna kil fakati prabha
Aganit lavanya, tej punjalale, na varnave te techi shobha
------------------------------------------------------------
Pandurang kanti = Dark skin, Divya tej = divine aura, Zalakti = dazzles
ratna kil = rays of gemstones, fakati= spread, prabha = light
aganit = un-accounted, lavanya = beauty , tej punjalale = light blossomed
na varnave = unable to describe , te techi = that, shobha = beauty
--------------------------------------------------------
Kanada-o Vitthaloo Karnatakoo, Yene maj lavi-yala vedhu
--------------------------------------------------------
Kanada-o Vitthaloo Karnatakoo, Yene = he, maj = to me , laviyala vedhu =
vedh = longing, aim
---------------------------------------------------------
hol gumphi ho-ooni khunanchi palavi, aalavilya neti sadhu
---------------------------------------------------------
This verse has me stumped. I believe khunanchi palavi means eyelids,
aalavilya means beseech. I have heard Professor Ram Shevalkar say that
Kanada-o Vitthaloo also means something else. I wish I remembered.
----------------------------------------------------
Shabde-vin samvadu, duje-vin anuvadu
he tuj kaise nigame, parate-parati bolane khuntale
vaikhari kaise me sange
----------------------------------------------------
shabde-vin-samvadu = conversation without words
duje-vin-anuvadu = dialog without another
he tuj kaise nigame = how do you accomplish this
parate-parati bolane khuntale = my expression falls short
vaikhari = speech, kaise me saange = how can I describe it
Dnyanadev marvels at the saguna, nirguna, nir-akar, swa-swayam-vedya
Parameshwar, that One who is complete from within.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paya padu gele, tav paaool chi na dise, Oobha ki swayambhoo aase
Samora ki pathimora na kale, ratnachi jaise dise
----------------------------------------------------------------
When I went to touch your feet, I could not see them. Are you standing or
are you just there, are you facing me or is your back towards me, I do not
know, you seem like a gemstone, meaning you are all permeating.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheva lagi jeev, utavil maza, mhanooni sphuratati bahu,
kschem deoo gele tav mazi me eklli, aasavala jeev raho
-------------------------------------------------------
cheva=excite, utavil = eager , mhanooni= so saying, sphuratati = raring,
bahu=arms, kschem = greet, aasavala = thirsty
With my excited , eager soul I went to greet you, my arms outstretched to
embrace you, may this longing remain.
As with all my other attempts, this one is also cloogy at best. Eknath
Maharaj has said 'Eekda tari ovi anubhavavi' (one must experience ovi at
least once. Like Dnyanadev says, bolane khuntale.
Aruna.
*************************************************************************
Abhinav Jawadekar
In article <60c1nj$6...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
>
> Written by Dnyaneshwar (who
>else?), it is set to tune in Raga Yaman Kalyan by Hridaynath Mangeshkar and
>then transported to the altar of perfection by Asha Bhonsle.
A basic question:
Is there a difference between Yaman-Kalyan and Kalyan? I feel that
they are the same. By Kalyan I am refering to the raga in which
Bhimsen Joshi sings "yeri ali piyabina", or the raga
to which Kumarji's beautiful composition "mukha tero karo" belongs.
Thanks.
Abhinav Jawadekar
Rajan P. Parrikar
In article <60e4et$l...@drn.zippo.com> Abhinav Jawadekar <abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>In article <60c1nj$6...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
>>
>> Written by Dnyaneshwar (who
>>else?), it is set to tune in Raga Yaman Kalyan by Hridaynath Mangeshkar and
>>then transported to the altar of perfection by Asha Bhonsle.
>
>A basic question:
>
>Is there a difference between Yaman-Kalyan and Kalyan?
Yes. And the nomenclature is confusing.
The Kalyan thAT is characterised by: S R G m P D N
Raga Yaman employs all (and only) the notes of the above Kalyan thAT.
Raga Yaman Kalyan is distinguished from Yaman by its taking in
the shuddha madhyam also, usually in the following manner:
S (S)N' (G)R G..., G R G m P (G)R G R, G M G R (N')D' N' R S...
The use of the shuddha madhyam is limited but it adds a nice touch.
In "Kanada-o Vitthalu" the shudhha madhyam is swingingly touched on
the 'lu' syllable.
r
abhinav jawadekar
In article <60efnu$s...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
>
>In article <60e4et$l...@drn.zippo.com> Abhinav Jawadekar
<abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>>A basic question:
>>
>>Is there a difference between Yaman-Kalyan and Kalyan?
>
>Yes. And the nomenclature is confusing.
>
>The Kalyan thAT is characterised by: S R G m P D N
>
>Raga Yaman employs all (and only) the notes of the above Kalyan thAT.
>Raga Yaman Kalyan is distinguished from Yaman by its taking in
>the shuddha madhyam also, usually in the following manner:
>
I was looking for the difference between the raga called
"Yaman Kalyan" and the raga called "Kalyan" if there is any.
The difference between Yaman and any of these ragas is very clear
with the absence or presence of shuddha madhyam.
Abhinav Jawadekar
Rajan P. Parrikar
In article <60h2r8$9...@drn.zippo.com> abhinav jawadekar <abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>Thanks for the reply. However I do not think that you are right
>in saying raga Yaman is same as raga Kalyan.
I just looked up Subbarao's "Raganidhi" and he agrees with my interpretation.
Which is that Yaman and Kalyan are the same rAga.
>In the examples that I have quoted in my original post, Bhimsen
>Joshi and Kumar Gandharva use shuddha madhyam in singing what
>they call "Kalyan". Let me explain these examples with
>notation:-
>
>1. Bhimsen Joshi's version of yeri ali piyabin
>
> ye--- ri-a-li-piyabina
> (m)NDND P--R-S--G-R-M-G
> (note the shuddha M in piyabina)
> ^^
I don't recall the details of Bhimsen's rendition but the
traditional bandish "eri aali piyabina..." is IN think in Yaman (i.e. without
the shuddha madhyam). Someone who has Bhatkhande's volumes should
be able to verify.
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>I was looking for the difference between the raga called
>"Yaman Kalyan" and the raga called "Kalyan" if there is any.
I have already answered this (albeit indirectly). When someone sings
"Kalyan" he or she is singing "Yaman."
r
abhinav jawadekar
In article <60gsd7$k...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
Thanks for the reply. However I do not think that you are right
in saying raga Yaman is same as raga Kalyan.
In the examples that I have quoted in my original post, Bhimsen
Joshi and Kumar Gandharva use shuddha madhyam in singing what
they call "Kalyan". Let me explain these examples with
notation:-
1. Bhimsen Joshi's version of yeri ali piyabin
ye--- ri-a-li-piyabina
(m)NDND P--R-S--G-R-M-G
(note the shuddha M in piyabina)
^^
Unfortunately I do not have his recording of this bandish.
2. Kumar Gandharva's masterpiece "mukha tero karo"
Mukha- Tero- Ka--ro- kahe ha-ri
m-P- m(G)R- GMG--R- `N(RS)`N`D `NRG
(note the shuddha madhyam in karo)
This recording belongs to an LP (also a cassette) of his in
which he has recorded "Shree Kalyan", "Shree" and "Kalyan" in
this sequence to justify his creation of "Shree Kalyan". This is
a very popular recording and I have one with me.
It is this shuddha madhyam that makes me feel that the ragas
"Yaman-Kalyan" (very well demonstrated by kanada-o vitthalu) and
"Kalyan" are very close if not the same and hence this query.
Anybody else would like to help me?
Abhinav
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
Ramaprasad, K, V wrote:
[..]
> there is a belief that the Panduranga Vithala of Pandarapur is
> none other than the Vijaya Vitthala of Vijayanagar, reinstalled during the AD
> 1565 battle. But anyway, the time of Jnyaneshvar precedes this time.
The Vijaya Vitthala temple of Vijayanagar was built to house the
Panduranga Vitthala brought from Pandharpur, by Krishnadevaraya.
Sometime in the 1520's, Krishnadevaraya defeated the sultans of Bijapur
and Golconda. Pandharpur was under the control of Bijapur, and to leave
a mark of his victory, the Panduranga Vitthala icon was brought away to
Vijayanagar. Krishnadevaraya did a similar things with the Balakrishna
icon of Udayagiri, after he defeated the Gajapati ruler of Orissa. The
Vitthala icon must have been taken back to Pandharpur after the battle
of Talikota. There must be references to this in the later bhajans
prevalent among the vArkari sampradAya.
Another famous instance of such a travelling icon, commemorated in song,
is Vatapi Ganapati, which was brought away to Kanchipuram by the
Pallavas, after defeating the Calukyas.
Vidyasankar
abhinav jawadekar
In article <60hbuo$3...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
<abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>
>>Thanks for the reply. However I do not think that you are right
>>in saying raga Yaman is same as raga Kalyan.
>
>I just looked up Subbarao's "Raganidhi" and he agrees with my interpretation.
>Which is that Yaman and Kalyan are the same rAga.
>
>>In the examples that I have quoted in my original post, Bhimsen
>>Joshi and Kumar Gandharva use shuddha madhyam in singing what
>>they call "Kalyan". Let me explain these examples with
>>notation:-
>>
>>1. Bhimsen Joshi's version of yeri ali piyabin
>>
>> ye--- ri-a-li-piyabina
>> (m)NDND P--R-S--G-R-M-G
>> (note the shuddha M in piyabina)
>> ^^
>
>I don't recall the details of Bhimsen's rendition
> but the
>traditional bandish "eri aali piyabina..." is IN think in Yaman (i.e. without
>the shuddha madhyam). Someone who has Bhatkhande's volumes should
>be able to verify.
>
Bhimsen does differ from Bhatkhande's "standard" while singing
this bandish.
Looks like this is yet another case of different musicians
associating the "names" and "values" of ragas differently!!!
Abhinav Jawadekar
ramaprasad_k_v
In article , abhinav says...
>
>In article <60hbuo$3...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@rococo.Colorado.EDU says...
>>
>>In article <60h2r8$9...@drn.zippo.com> abhinav jawadekar
>
><abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>>
>>>Thanks for the reply. However I do not think that you are right
>>>in saying raga Yaman is same as raga Kalyan.
>>
>>I just looked up Subbarao's "Raganidhi" and he agrees with my interpretation.
>>Which is that Yaman and Kalyan are the same rAga.
>>
>>>In the examples that I have quoted in my original post, Bhimsen
>>>Joshi and Kumar Gandharva use shuddha madhyam in singing what
>>>they call "Kalyan". Let me explain these examples with
>>>notation:-
>>>
>>>1. Bhimsen Joshi's version of yeri ali piyabin
>>>
>>> ye--- ri-a-li-piyabina
>>> (m)NDND P--R-S--G-R-M-G
>>> (note the shuddha M in piyabina)
>>> ^^
>>
>>I don't recall the details of Bhimsen's rendition
>> but the
>>traditional bandish "eri aali piyabina..." is IN think in Yaman (i.e. without
>>the shuddha madhyam). Someone who has Bhatkhande's volumes should
>>be able to verify.
>>
Even the versions of Eri Ali piyA bin I have heard are in Yaman.
As a note I can add that in Karnataka music, yaman of Hindustani
is Kalyani and yaman Kalyan is Yaman Kalyani.
Ramaprasad K V
Ajay P Nerurkar
Crossposted to RMIM.
Abhinav Jawadekar <abh...@teil.soft.net> wrote:
: Is there a difference between Yaman-Kalyan and Kalyan? I feel that
: they are the same. By Kalyan I am refering to the raga in which
: Bhimsen Joshi sings "yeri ali piyabina"
Can you tell us where you came across this alternative nomenclature for Yaman
Kalyan ? There is a Bhimsen recording of this traditionally Yaman cheez in
Yaman Kalyan and that is how the raag has been designated. The other side of
the cassette has a trademark Bhimseni rendition of Multani.
Switching genres, there is a version of this bandish by Lata for the great
Roshan in the movie "Raag Rang". I have only a fleeting recollection of it and
when some time ago I consulted the noted RMIMer Ashok Dhareshwar, I was told
that it appears as a very brief snatch on the soundtrack. Under the Roshanian
baton, other classical bandishes have also been recast as film songs. "Man
re tu kaahe na dheer dhare" and "Ae ri jaane na doongi", both from Chitralekha
come readily to mind. Are there any others ? Also, is the "Raag Rang"
soundtrack available in any format ?
Ajay
Srini Pichumani
In article <342C5F...@cco.caltech.edu>, Vidyasankar
>
>Another famous instance of such a travelling icon, commemorated
>in song, is Vatapi Ganapati, which was brought away to Kanchipuram
>by the Pallavas, after defeating the Calukyas.
Vidyasankar, I don't know if this icon itself moved further down
South to TiruvArUr or if it just served as inspiration for other
similar icons... ... but, afaik, the kriti vAtApi gaNapatim of
Muttuswami Dikshitar in Hamsadhvani is in praise of the vAtApi
gaNapati within the precincts of the TiruvArUr TyagarAjA-KamalAmbA
temple.
-Srini.
ramaprasad_k_v
In article , Vidyasankar says...
>
>Ramaprasad, K, V wrote:
>
>[..]
>
>> there is a belief that the Panduranga Vithala of Pandarapur is
>>none other than the Vijaya Vitthala of Vijayanagar, reinstalled during the AD
>> 1565 battle. But anyway, the time of Jnyaneshvar precedes this time.
>
>The Vijaya Vitthala temple of Vijayanagar was built to house the
>Panduranga Vitthala brought from Pandharpur, by Krishnadevaraya.
>Sometime in the 1520's, Krishnadevaraya defeated the sultans of Bijapur
>and Golconda. Pandharpur was under the control of Bijapur, and to leave
>a mark of his victory, the Panduranga Vitthala icon was brought away to
>Vijayanagar. Krishnadevaraya did a similar things with the Balakrishna
>icon of Udayagiri, after he defeated the Gajapati ruler of Orissa. The
>Vitthala icon must have been taken back to Pandharpur after the battle
>of Talikota. There must be references to this in the later bhajans
>prevalent among the vArkari sampradAya.
Mr Vidyasankar,
This part of the history ( of Krishnadevaraya bringing the idol from
Pandarapur) I'm not aware of. I've not read any sources mentioning this.
Could you give me some sources ? And AFAIK, even the belief that
the viTHOba of Pandarapur is same as viajya viTThala seems to be
based, not on any firm historical support. But there are stories going around.
Surprising as it may seem, Purandara dAsa or Kanaka dAsa who were
contemporaries of Krishna dEva rAya never refer to the vijaya viTThala
of Hampe. Both of them have composed about the channa kEs'ava of
bElUru.
>
>Another famous instance of such a travelling icon, commemorated in song,
>is Vatapi Ganapati, which was brought away to Kanchipuram by the
>Pallavas, after defeating the Calukyas.
I have read this story too. In bAdAmi ( vAtApi) there is a small temple in
the north fort ( now called lower shivalaya, which some historians belive
to have housed the vAtApi ganapati. I was surprised to see that the
structure is so small ( compared to many other chAlukya temples around)
and how it could have become so famous.
>Vidyasankar
Regards,
Ramaprasad K V
abhinav jawadekar
In article <60k2ml$lu9$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>, Ajay says...
>
>
>Crossposted to RMIM.
>
>
>Abhinav Jawadekar <abh...@teil.soft.net> wrote:
>
>
>: Is there a difference between Yaman-Kalyan and Kalyan? I feel that
>: they are the same. By Kalyan I am refering to the raga in which
>: Bhimsen Joshi sings "yeri ali piyabina"
>
>
>Can you tell us where you came across this alternative nomenclature for Yaman
>Kalyan ? There is a Bhimsen recording of this traditionally Yaman cheez in
>Yaman Kalyan and that is how the raag has been designated. The other side of
>the cassette has a trademark Bhimseni rendition of Multani.
>
I had heard Bhimsen Joshi singing this Bandish in a concert in
Bangalore a couple of years back.
Also this observation of yours makes it more or less
certain that the ragas "Kalyan" (the one that I have been
talking about in my posts) and "Yaman Kalyan" must be the
same.
Abhinav Jawadekar
Ram Venkataraman
Srini Pichumani wrote:
>
> In article <342C5F...@cco.caltech.edu>, Vidyasankar
> Sundaresan <vi...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >
> >in song, is Vatapi Ganapati, which was brought away to Kanchipuram
> >by the Pallavas, after defeating the Calukyas.
>
> South to TiruvArUr or if it just served as inspiration for other
> similar icons... ... but, afaik, the kriti vAtApi gaNapatim of
> Muttuswami Dikshitar in Hamsadhvani is in praise of the vAtApi
> gaNapati within the precincts of the TiruvArUr TyagarAjA-KamalAmbA
> temple.
>
> -Srini.
Most of you would have read Kalki's 'Sivakamiyin Sabatham' - a
historical romance, which was based on some real events. The Chief
Commonder of the Pallavas, Paranchothi, who became a member of the
Saivite Saints (Nayanmar), was supposed to have taken this Vatapi
Ganapathi statue from the Fort of the Chalukya's at Vatapi and he took
it to his home town of Thirukurunkudi. My friends from Thirukurunkudi
claims that the original Vatapi Ganapathi is still there!. But as Srini
says, the name 'Vatapi Gapanapthi' might have been accepted as one of
the 'nama's when praising Lord Ganesh, and became a generic phrase used
in compositions.
My 2 cents worth.
Venkataraman
Rakesh Chitradurga
Yaman is the raga without the shuddha madhyam. There is only a teevra
madhayama.
On the other yaman kalyan/kalyan have both madhyamas...
Hope this helps. .
regards
Rakesh
> Thanks for the reply. However I do not think that you are right
> in saying raga Yaman is same as raga Kalyan.
>
You are right as I mentioned above.
>
Rakesh.Ch...@sdrc.com________________________
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
Ramaprasad, K, V wrote:
[..]
>
> This part of the history ( of Krishnadevaraya bringing the idol from
> Pandarapur) I'm not aware of. I've not read any sources mentioning this.
> Could you give me some sources ? And AFAIK, even the belief that
> the viTHOba of Pandarapur is same as viajya viTThala seems to be
> based, not on any firm historical support. But there are stories going around.
See "Lives of Indian Images" by Richard Davis, Princeton University
Press, 1997. There seems to be a major lack of proper sources for this
story, but the larger picture of displacement of icons as a result of
war seems to indicate that the legends are not without some basis.
> ...... In bAdAmi ( vAtApi) there is a small temple in
> the north fort ( now called lower shivalaya, which some historians belive
> to have housed the vAtApi ganapati. I was surprised to see that the
> structure is so small ( compared to many other chAlukya temples around)
> and how it could have become so famous.
The Pallava king, Narasimhavarman, son of Mahendravarman (Vicitracitta),
is described as "Vatapikonda" in various inscriptions. The fame of the
idol might be related to the fact that the original temple was inside
the central fort in the old Calukya capital. Its displacement from the
original site would have served as a firm reminder of the Pallava
victory.
I'm unsure of the history of the Vatapi Ganapati in Tiruvarur, but it
could not have directly come from the Calukya kingdom. The Colas of
Tanjavur also fought the later Calukya dynasty, but in these later
times, the capital was no longer in Badami (Vatapi). After becoming
subordinates of the Rashtrakutas (based in Malkhed), the Calukyas rose
into prominence again in the 9th-10th centuries. They continued to rule
from Malkhed and then shifted the capital to Kalyani. An inscription of
Gangaikondacolan on the dvarapalaka of a temple in Dorasuram (this
sculpture is now in a government museum) clearly refers to his battles
with the lords of Kalyanapuram.
Vidyasankar
Rajan P. Parrikar
In article <610ifl$9...@drn.zippo.com> abhinav jawadekar <abh...@teil.soft.net> writes:
>After the discussion it is quite clear (I have even written so...may be in
>different words) that this is just a matter of nomenclature (associating the
>"names" and "values" of ragas). Let's accept that Hindustani Classical
>Music is less than perfect as far as the naming conventions of ragas are
>concerned. e.g. Bibhas....some people take shuddha dhaiwat (e.g. Jaipur
>singers) whereas some take the komal dhaiwat (e.g. Gwalior singers)!
>I feel that these are two different but close ragas and
>people are just overloading the name "Bibhas". I would prefer to call them
>Bibhas1 and Bibhas2!
There is no confusion here: one is Bibhas of the Marwa thAT and the other
is of the Bhairav thAT.
>Now I have concluded that Kalyan has a similar "problem",
>with some people taking only the tivra madhyam in it and making it same as
Raga Kalyan with two madhyams makes no sense since Kalyan is the designated
name of the basic thAT that includes only the shuddha madhyam. There is NO ambiguity
on this point.
If Bhimsen and Kumar have taken in both the madhyams and called the rAga Kalyan
they have unnecessarily introduced another inconsistency in an already inconsistent
world of Hindustani nomenclature.
Regards,
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Raga Kalyan with two madhyams makes no sense since Kalyan is the designated
>name of the basic thAT that includes only the shuddha madhyam. There is NO ambiguity
^^^^^^^
I meant to say "tivra."
r
abhinav jawadekar
In article <60tq0q$k...@drn.zippo.com>, parr...@rococo.colorado.edu says...
>
>In article <34325E...@sdrc.com>, Rakesh says...
>>
>>Yaman is the raga without the shuddha madhyam. There is only a teevra
>>madhayama.
>>On the other yaman kalyan/kalyan have both madhyamas...
>>Hope this helps. .
>>regards
>>Rakesh
>
>be writing this. As far as I recall, he clearly mentions the difference.
>
>This will be my last rejoinder on this silly topic. Jawadekar seems to be
>beyond redemption.
Come on!!
After the discussion it is quite clear (I have even written so...may be in
different words) that this is just a matter of nomenclature (associating the
"names" and "values" of ragas). Let's accept that Hindustani Classical
Music is less than perfect as far as the naming conventions of ragas are
concerned. e.g. Bibhas....some people take shuddha dhaiwat (e.g. Jaipur
singers) whereas some take the komal dhaiwat (e.g. Gwalior singers)!
I feel that these are two different but close ragas and
people are just overloading the name "Bibhas". I would prefer to call them
Bibhas1 and Bibhas2! Now I have concluded that Kalyan has a similar "problem",
with some people taking only the tivra madhyam in it and making it same as
Yaman, and some people taking both the madhyams and making it same as
Yaman-Kalyan!
I completely agree with "r" that the "fight" is "silly" as it is just
over the name (what is there in a name?).... But before these postings
I was not aware of this "fight" in case of Kalyan and Yaman....and hence
the postings!
"r" is refering to Patwardhans or Bhatkhandes and I am refering to Bhimsens
or Kumars..... and they are not consistent.....not a rare thing to happen
in case of Hindusthani Classical Music!
I admit that I am not too well read as far as Patwardhans or Bhatkhandes are
concerned but I do think that I know my Bhimsens or Kumars quite well and
I always mentioned that I was talking with respect to the stuff that I know
(have heard).
>
>For the record: Raga Yaman is the same as Raga Kalyan (the former name is
>more common these days than the latter). Whereas Yaman Kalyan is the different
>one with shuddha madhyam as an additive. Yaman Kalyan is also known by
>another name, viz., Jaimini Kalyan.
>
Yet another name coming in...thanks "r" for helping me prove my point!
>
>r
Abhinav Jawadekar