Raga definition

[tst...@natsys.fr]

As I listen to more and more Indian music (even including Carnatic!) I
begin to feel closer to the fundamental goal of learning to listen to a
raga. At first, coming from years of intensive listening to jazz, I heard
sitar renditions of ragas as being a kind of modal jam. I quickly realized
that was all wrong. As I explore vocal music I am beginning to feel the
sense of a raga as having its own personality, mood, etc., which is
allowed to "unfold," rather than serving as a springboard for
improvisations that, in jazz, for example, can go into any mood the player
wishes.

One thing (there will be more)is hanging me up in my comprehension of
theory. So far I understand that a raga, along with an associated tala,
has its own scale or mode, with possible differences in ascending and
descending directions, and that there are associated microtones, other
rules regarding the choice of notes in a phrase, and so on. But a raga's
"characteristic phrases" are also referred to, and I have read one
exposition that explains that musicians will try to come up with their own
"characteristic phrases" for a raga.

My question is: does a given raga always have a specific melody, a phrase
that defines it uniquely regardless of other "characteristic phrases" that
a musician might come up with? My analogy is with Western songs, where a
song is identified by its melody, that melody itself being an expression
of the underlying harmony. Sometimes jazz musicians will "reharmonize" a
song by finding other chords than the original ones that also include the
notes of the melody; this way, they can improvise using different material
than the original song even though the melody itself remains the same.

To rephrase my question: is a raga *only* its scale notes, tala and
improvisation rules, or does its identity also include a unique melody?

Sorry if this question seems too dumb to be true, but it is one I can't
find a clear-cut answer to in the liner notes and Net resources I have
found to date. Thank you!

- Tom Storer

P.S. If I had a larger data base of ragas to listen to I could probably
find the answer myself, but this is not yet the case and I am impatient to
find out!

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[Surajit A. Bose]

What exactly is a raga? That's a good question, and while the answer is
fundamental, it's difficult to answer with precision.

In article <8555800...@dejanews.com>, tst...@natsys.fr wrote:

> One thing (there will be more)is hanging me up in my comprehension of
> theory. So far I understand that a raga, along with an associated tala,
> has its own scale or mode, with possible differences in ascending and
> descending directions, and that there are associated microtones, other
> rules regarding the choice of notes in a phrase, and so on. But a raga's
> "characteristic phrases" are also referred to, and I have read one
> exposition that explains that musicians will try to come up with their own
> "characteristic phrases" for a raga.

Slight confusion here. Tala and raga are two different entities. Raga has
to do with melody, tala with rhythm. A given raga can have compositions in
any number of talas; any raga can have a composition in a given tala.
Particular ragas are not associated with particular talas.

A phrase that makes better sense than scale or mode is "melodic
framework." Scale and mode both come redolent with associations from
Western music that are more a hindrance than a help in understanding the
concept of "raga."

> My question is: does a given raga always have a specific melody, a phrase
> that defines it uniquely regardless of other "characteristic phrases" that
> a musician might come up with? My analogy is with Western songs, where a
> song is identified by its melody, that melody itself being an expression
> of the underlying harmony. Sometimes jazz musicians will "reharmonize" a
> song by finding other chords than the original ones that also include the
> notes of the melody; this way, they can improvise using different material
> than the original song even though the melody itself remains the same.

The analogy runs aground on the phrase "melody itself being an expression
of the underlying harmony." Harmony as a concept doesn't exist in Indian
classical music. The interface between jazz and Indian music is
fascinating to contemplate, and some wonderful fusion music has often
resulted from it; but your explanation of improvisation in jazz actually
points up the fact that the two actually rest on very different bases.

> To rephrase my question: is a raga *only* its scale notes, tala and
> improvisation rules, or does its identity also include a unique melody?

This gets to the heart of the matter. The answer, annoyingly enough,is: it
depends. The best way to get at an answer is with an elaborate example.
Here goes:

The fundamental scale of Hindustani music, equivalent to the C natural
scale, is called Bilawal:

Sa Re Ga ma Pa Dha Ni Sa'
Sa' Ni Dha Pa ma Ga Re Sa (where Sa" = higher octave)

If one drops the fourth and the seventh from this scale, the resulting pentatone

Sa Re Ga Pa Dha Sa'
Sa' Dha Pa Ga Re Sa

is called Deskar, and it's a full-fledged raga. A musician singing or
playing Deskar is restricted to these five notes; to take any other notes
would be to break the rules of the raga. What's more, these notes are
invariant, i.e., they must be in their natural form. To introduce a flat
second, e.g., would again break the rules of the raga.

(In fact, the same set of notes with a flat second is another raga entirely:

Sa re Ga Pa Dha Sa'
Sa' Dha Pa Ga re Sa

This is raga Vibhas. I'll return to this in a minute.)

So the challenge a performer faces is to stick to this limited set of
notes and improvise, neither breaking the rules of the raga nor becoming
monotonous.

In addition to being a (1) selection of notes, a raga also depends on the
(2) emphasis given to particular notes. Built into the identity of Deskar
is that the sixth note is the most important (vadi sur--sonant note), and
the third note is the next in importance (samvadi sur--consonant note).
Also crucial to Deskar is that the second note is extremely weak, often
being omitted entirely in the ascent. This means that in the process of
improvising, the musician will weave elaborate patterns round the sixth
note (Dha) and the third (Ga). These notes are also rested upon:
improvisational phrases are spun around these notes and they are then
returned to at the end of the phrase. e.g.

Ga Pa Dha Ga Dha, Dha Pa Ga, Ga Pa Dha Pa Ga, Ga Dha, Ga Pa Dha---, Pa
Ga----, Ga--- (Re)Sa (where the parentheses indicate a grace note).

The weak Re implies that resting on or elaborating around the second note
is wrong. In fact, this weak Re is an important distinguishing
characteristic of Deskar. If the performer emphasizes the Re in any way,
then the distinction between Deskar and similar ragas becomes threatened;
trained listeners would then find the blurred boundaries between Deskar
and say, Shudh-Kalyan, jarring.

(3) Selection and emphasis by themselves don't entirely exhaust the
definition of raga. A third characteristic is ambit or provenance. Deskar
has its ambit in the upper registers; while improvising, a musician should
not explore the lower registers very fully. This raga is "uttaraa.Ng
pradhaan"--the notes above the fifth are more important. Combining (2) and
(3), it's easy to deduce that the interval between the sixth and the
upper-octave third is quite important to Deskar.

(4) Another defining characteristic of ragas is their mood. This is
difficult to explain, but quite important. Deskar, for example, is
considered a lively raga. This usually means that the movement from one
note to another is rendered quickly, and with sharp breaks predominating
over smooth glides. Long rests on individual notes, or leisured phrases,
are not in keeping with the mood of Deskar.

(5) Finally, the time of day that a raga is sung is important. Deskar is
supposed to be a morning raga, and performing Deskar at an evening concert
would be unthinkable.

Each of these defining characteristics is necessary to the identity of a
raga. This can be easily seen by the contrast between Deskar and Bhupali
(or Bhoop). The two ragas have exactly the same "scale" (aaroh, or
ascending notes, and avroh, or descending notes):

Sa Re Ga Pa Dha Sa'
Sa' Dha Pa Ga Re Sa

But Bhoop is (5) an evening raga. (4) It's not too lively--though it's not
somber, either. (3) All three registers--lower, middle, upper--are within
its ambit (2) The sonant and the consonant are Ga and Dha, and the Re is
not weak. In these ways it differs from Deskar, and while these
differences seem minor, they're non-trivial to any serious listener.

That's a basic definition of raga: the melodic framework created by the
selection, emphasis, ambit, mood, and time assigned to a set of notes.

Matters are, of course, more complicated. You asked about characteristic
phrases: yes, they are important to a raga's identity. The phrase "Re Pa
Ga," for example, should be avoided in Deskar, because it's characteristic
of a raga close to it, Shudh-Kalyan. "Ga Pa Dha Pa Dha Sa'," on the other
hand, is characteristic of Deskar.

In fact, some ragas are built up almost entirely of characteristic
phrases. Kedar, for example, doesn't have a linear ascent and descent.
Rather, jumps between the first and the fourth, the fifth and the eighth,
are characteristic:

Sa ma, ma (Ga)Pa, Pa Dha, Pa, Pa, Sa'
Sa' Dha Pa, Ma Pa Dha Pa ma, Re sa.

(note both the sharp and natural fourths in this phrasing)

Kedar is built up almost entirely around such phrases, relatively
inflexibly. For instance, while both sharp and flat sevenths are permitted
in the raga, taking the seventh note and yet retaining the raga's identity
requires some skill.

As for the difference in characteristic phrases from one musician to
another, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean, but I THINK
this occurs when a raga's identity is not firmly established by
convention. Let's return to the example I cited above, putting a flat
second in Deskar:

Sa re Ga Pa Dha Sa'
Sa' Dha Pa Ga re Sa.

This set of notes is called Raga Vibhas by some musicians, e.g. Lalith
Rao. When she sings Vibhas, the phrase

Ga Pa Dha Pa Ga re

is characteristic. Other musicians say that Vibhas should have a flat
sixth as well:

Sa re Ga Pa dha Sa'
Sa' dha Pa Ga re Sa.

Obviously, for them,

Ga Pa dha Pa Ga re

would be characteristic.

Still others say that Vibhas uses the sharp fourth in a characteristic
way. These differences of opinion among musicians as to what the raga
Vibhas "really" is like are well known. So it becomes common knowledge
that when Lalith Rao performs Vibhas, she uses a sharp sixth; when D. V.
Paluskar does, he uses a flat sixth; when Krishnarao Chonkar does, he
demonstrates the use of a sharp fourth; when Kishori Amonkar does, she
pitches the sixth somewhere between the sharp and the flat.....

But what it amounts to is that there is no unanimity amongst musicians and
listeners regarding the identity of Vibhas. Such ragas, however, are
relatively uncommon, even obscure. By far the majority of ragas have a
clearly defined identity and their conventional phrases are common from
musician to musician.

Finally, I should return to the question of scale. I said Deskar is
derived from the C natural scale, but that's just an approximation. Unlike
Western music, Indian scales are flexible. I.e., if a musician chooses,
say F# as her tonic note, then she could still sing Deskar; the scale
transmutes to her key. I can't really explain this clearly, hope someone
else can.

Hope this helps. This is purely a non-doctrinal explanation, so others
might proffer a different view about what constitutes a raga. For sake of
completion, here are the classical rules (from memory; I could be wrong):

1. A raga should be derived from a parent scale (ThaaT)
2. It should have an ascent and a descent with at least five notes in each
3. It should have sonant and consonant notes
4. It should not use sharp and flat variants of the same note one after
the other in either the ascent or the descent
5. It should be performed at a particular time of day

I've not really talked about all these rules.

Cheers,
Surajit

[Michael Tandy]

In article <8555800...@dejanews.com>, tst...@natsys.fr says...

>
So far I understand that a raga, along with an associated tala,
>has its own scale or mode,

(snip)

>To rephrase my question: is a raga *only* its scale notes, tala and
>improvisation rules, or does its identity also include a unique melody?

Any given raga doesn't usually have a specific tala associated with it;
raga and tala are theoretically independent of each other.

Also, it doesn't sound right to me that musicians come up with their own
"characteristic phrases" in a raga. Each raga usually has a fairly standard
pakad or svarupa, which I would consider its characteristic phrases. But
those may often be subject to debate. I would say it's more a matter of
discovering the characteristics of a raga than creating them, and it seems
like that is what you're suggesting as well.
-m

[tst...@natsys.fr]

In article <5dosdr$l...@news.dhc.net>,
mpt...@jove.acs.unt.edu (Michael Tandy) wrote:

> Any given raga doesn't usually have a specific tala associated with it;
> raga and tala are theoretically independent of each other.

Ah! Yet another basic basic I had somehow missed. Thank you!

>
> Also, it doesn't sound right to me that musicians come up with their own
> "characteristic phrases" in a raga.

This is simply how it was put in a "Carnatic music primer" on the net...

> Each raga usually has a fairly standard
> pakad or svarupa, which I would consider its characteristic phrases. But
> those may often be subject to debate.

Could you explain what a pakad and svarupa are?

< I would say it's more a matter of
> discovering the characteristics of a raga than creating them, and it seems
> like that is what you're suggesting as well.

I would agree that a raga, like any other piece of music with
pre-existing parameters, has an ensemble of possibilities for expression,
and that these possibilities define its uniqueness... hence we "discover"
the raga. The same could be said for "I Got Rhythm," incidentally. But
within the *possible* expressions of a raga's personality, couldn't a
given performer find certain phrases more felicitous and congenial than
others, and so tend to revisit them when performing the raga? This is
what might be meant by a musician coming up with his or her own
"characteristic phrases..." Characteristic, that is, not only of the raga
itself but of the musician's sensibility.

- Tom Storer

[tst...@natsys.fr]

Thank you for an exceptionally clear and useful post!

In article <bose.2-1002...@tty104.tc1.nd.edu>,

bos...@nd.edu (Surajit A. Bose) wrote:

> Slight confusion here. Tala and raga are two different entities. Raga has
> to do with melody, tala with rhythm. A given raga can have compositions in
> any number of talas; any raga can have a composition in a given tala.
> Particular ragas are not associated with particular talas.

Yes, another poster also pointed out that a raga can be done in different
talas. But in passing you mention "compositions" of a raga. Do you mean
simply that a raga in one tala is a "composition" of that raga, and the
same raga in another tala would be another "composition" of it? Or is
there more to it than this?

> Harmony as a concept doesn't exist in Indian
> classical music.

So I have learned. My difficulty was in describing the relationship
between a "melody" in a raga performance and the notes making up the
raga. In harmony-based music, I tend to visualize the melody as a top
layer, resting on the underlying chords. But this doesn't work well with
ragas, does it?

> (5) Finally, the time of day that a raga is sung is important. Deskar is
> supposed to be a morning raga, and performing Deskar at an evening concert
> would be unthinkable.

This is the aspect of raga that is most difficult for me to understand,
and I wonder if it isn't because it is based in some aspect of Indian
culture, which I am highly unfamiliar with. Tell me, do Indian listeners
feel they should only *listen* to a given raga, a recorded version, for
example, at the appropriate time of day, or is it mainly for performance
that this is important? Do Indian musicians actually go into the
recording studio at midnight to play a midnight raga?

> Finally, I should return to the question of scale. I said Deskar is
> derived from the C natural scale, but that's just an approximation. Unlike
> Western music, Indian scales are flexible. I.e., if a musician chooses,
> say F# as her tonic note, then she could still sing Deskar; the scale
> transmutes to her key. I can't really explain this clearly, hope someone
> else can.

I read what seemed to be a clear enough explanation of this elsewhere on
the net: basically, that there is no tuning fork in Indian music. As I
understand it, the "scale" (which as you point out is an inadequate term)
doesn't have to transmute to the singer's "key" because it, the "scale",
isn't tied to a fixed pitch to begin with; it defines intervals but not
absolute pitch locations. However, I assume it must have some relative
limits; if you were to sing Sa four piano whole tones higher than most
people, it probably would not be heard as Sa at all. Does this sound
correct?

>
> Hope this helps.

It certainly does. This newsgroup and its members are proving a gold mine
of patience and information. Thanks to all!

[deepak raag]

In article <8555800...@dejanews.com>, tst...@natsys.fr wrote:

But a raga's
> "characteristic phrases" are also referred to, and I have read one

> exposition that explains that musicians will try to come up with their own
> "characteristic phrases" for a raga.

>
> My question is: does a given raga always have a specific melody, a phrase
> that defines it uniquely regardless of other "characteristic phrases" that
> a musician might come up with? My analogy is with Western songs, where a
> song is identified by its melody, that melody itself being an expression
> of the underlying harmony. Sometimes jazz musicians will "reharmonize" a
> song by finding other chords than the original ones that also include the
> notes of the melody; this way, they can improvise using different material
> than the original song even though the melody itself remains the same.
>

> To rephrase my question: is a raga *only* its scale notes, tala and
> improvisation rules, or does its identity also include a unique melody?

Tom, think of each raag as being a person with a given set of qualities and
recognizable features. The characteristic phrase are its profiles, as it
were. If you engage in musical plastic surgery, you are changing the face
and making it unrecognizable; therefore, you can't come up w/ your own
char. phrases -- as many other phrases as you want, fine, but not the one's
that "God" gave the raag. If I didn't hear certain pakars in Darbari, let's
say, I'd call in Scully and Mulder to open an X file on that raag. Martian
Thath maybe.

Not only the face then, we must also consider how the person walks, her own
particular gait, the way she moves, recogn. even from a distance -- the
sound of her footfall being only hers and no one else's (she can have
twins, but not identical). This is the chalan of a raag. The char. phrases
are the pakars or mukhyan (sp) - faces.

Hope this helps

--deepak

[Surajit A. Bose]

tst...@natsys.fr wrote:

> Thank you for an exceptionally clear and useful post!

Actually, I had my doubts about it the minute I hit the "Post Message"
key, and I bet it's full of holes, but I'm glad you found it helpful.
I'm sure other RMIC-ers will point out the errors and omissions, and I
look forward to them.

One major caveat that I should have stressed: my discussion is based on
Hindustani music. For Carnatic music, some of the elements don't apply
(the time of day, for example). I am very sorry for not stating this
explicitly in the first post.

> Yes, another poster also pointed out that a raga can be done in different
> talas. But in passing you mention "compositions" of a raga. Do you mean
> simply that a raga in one tala is a "composition" of that raga, and the
> same raga in another tala would be another "composition" of it? Or is
> there more to it than this?

A composition is a few lines of lyrics tuned to a particular raga and
set to a particular tala. Here's part of a composition in Raga Deskar
set to Chaartaal (12 beats): the lyrics are jaagiye gopaala laal,
pragaTa bhayo anshumaal

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12
Sa Dha Dha Dha Sa'
Dha
jaa ... gi
ye ... go

Sa' -- Sa Dha -- Pa Pa Ga Pa Pa
Pa Dha
pa ... la la ... la pra ga Ta
bha yo ...

Pa Ga Pa Ga Re Sa
an ... shu maa ... la

(where -- = sustained note, ... = extended vowel sound of previous
syllable).

There are other lyrics set to other talas that also are in Deskar. These
other lyrics would be other compositions. Anybody can compose a
composition ("bandish") in a raga. You or I could pick up today's
headlines and set them to Deskar in Teen Tala, if we so desired. The
point is that the bandish puts the notes of the raga in a specific
rhythmic cycle; the performer has to complete improvisational phrases at
the point in the cycle where s/he can then pick up the set phrase that
begins the bandish and brings it to the first beat of the cycle. I.e.,
here, the performer will probably end his/her phrase at the sixth beat
so as to pick up the set phrase ("mukhda") on the seventh beat. To be
absolutely accurate, what's important isn't even that the beginning of
the song must be picked up at the correct beat--the crucially important
thing is that the first beat of the cycle ("sama") is arrived at
precisely.

> > Harmony as a concept doesn't exist in Indian
> > classical music.
>
> So I have learned. My difficulty was in describing the relationship
> between a "melody" in a raga performance and the notes making up the
> raga. In harmony-based music, I tend to visualize the melody as a top
> layer, resting on the underlying chords. But this doesn't work well with
> ragas, does it?

Right, it doesn't work. Indian classical music is entirely melody-based,
not chord-based.

>
> > (5) Finally, the time of day that a raga is sung is important. Deskar is
> > supposed to be a morning raga, and performing Deskar at an evening concert
> > would be unthinkable.
>
> This is the aspect of raga that is most difficult for me to understand,
> and I wonder if it isn't because it is based in some aspect of Indian
> culture, which I am highly unfamiliar with. Tell me, do Indian listeners
> feel they should only *listen* to a given raga, a recorded version, for
> example, at the appropriate time of day, or is it mainly for performance
> that this is important? Do Indian musicians actually go into the
> recording studio at midnight to play a midnight raga?

That depends on the listener. I do know one person who will actually
leave the room if, say, a Puriya-Dhanashree CD is played in the morning;
but most of us aren't that particular. In live concerts, on the other
hand, it's quite important to sing or play ragas appropriate to the time
of day. The ascription of a certain time of day to a raga is more or
less conventional, and as I've said, doesn't hold for Carnatic music.

The whole point of ascribing, say, a particular time of day or in the
case of a few ragas, a particular season to a given raga has to do with
aesthesis (the best translation I've come across for the untranslatable
word "rasa.") Singing Deskar in the morning jives best with its identity
as Deskar; the morning brings out the feeling, the "rasa," of Deskar
best (and vice-versa). The idea is that the raga mimics the experiential
effect of its time of day. Listening to Mian-Malhar is "like" listening
to the rains; listening to Kalyan is "like" listening to the evening. So
one would say that Mian-Malhar's "rasa" is bound up with the rainy
season; the raga "comes into its own" in the rainy season. I.e.,
Mian-Malhar "becomes" the rainy season (in the dual sense of "being
appropriate to" and "turning into"), Darbari "becomes" the late night.

> > Finally, I should return to the question of scale. I said Deskar is
> > derived from the C natural scale, but that's just an approximation. Unlike
> > Western music, Indian scales are flexible. I.e., if a musician chooses,
> > say F# as her tonic note, then she could still sing Deskar; the scale
> > transmutes to her key. I can't really explain this clearly, hope someone
> > else can.
>
> I read what seemed to be a clear enough explanation of this elsewhere on
> the net: basically, that there is no tuning fork in Indian music. As I
> understand it, the "scale" (which as you point out is an inadequate term)
> doesn't have to transmute to the singer's "key" because it, the "scale",
> isn't tied to a fixed pitch to begin with; it defines intervals but not
> absolute pitch locations.

Exactly. Re isn't equivalent to D; Re is just the note at the
appropriate interval from whatever pitch the performer chooses to
establish as his/her Sa.

> However, I assume it must have some relative
> limits; if you were to sing Sa four piano whole tones higher than most
> people, it probably would not be heard as Sa at all. Does this sound
> correct?

Actually, it might not sound particularly pleasant, but it will be
realized as that singer's Sa. Parveen Sultana, a virtuoso with amazing
vocal range, does reach a Sa"" about three octaves higher than normal;
it's ear-splitting (I always want to comment that just because she CAN
do it, she shouldn't make it an excuse TO do it)--but it's recognizably
Sa.

I pitch my Sa at whatever note my voice is most comfortable; the rest of
the notes take their place in relation to my Sa. If I have an unusually
high-pitched voice, it doesn't matter; I still pick whatever Sa best
suits my range. The rest of the chromatic scale is transposed to my
voice: my top Sa' would be twice the frequency of my tonic, and the rest
of the notes at the appropriate frequency intervals. (The RMIM archives
have a couple of very lucid articles on the subject, by Rajan Parrikar.)
The tanpura (drone) is tuned to establish that tonic, and the
accompanying instruments (usually tabla and sarangi) are tuned to that
key. If you have any recordings of Kumar Gandharva, you can hear what I
mean. His voice is pitched at E# (I think) and that's pretty unusual.
Most men choose C or C# as their tonic Sa, most women F# or G#.

You asked about the terms "pakad" and "svarup." "Pakad" means a defining
phrase--a phrase that immediately establishes the raga. For example,

'Pa 'Ni Sa Re Ga, Sa Re Ma Pa Dha Ma Ga

(where 'Pa--Pancham of lower octave) immediately establishes Tilak
Kamod. "Svarup" means "form," and includes the all the attributes that
define a raga. "Chalan," another term, literally means "gait" and is
used to name the typical note-clusters that occur when a raga is
performed. Thus Kedar's "chalan" would be

Sa ma, ma (Ga)Pa, Ma Pa Dha Pa ma, ma Re Sa; Sa 'Dha, 'Pa 'Dha 'Pa 'Pa
Sa, Sa, Sa Re, Sa

...and so on.

Hope this helps,
-s

[WARVIJ]

This is a good thread. Thanks to Tom Storer for
asking questions in an intelligent, informed and
thought provoking way; thanks also to Surajit
for his quite comprehensive post.

I don't have a lot of time at the moment so can't
go into detail, but there was one thing I wanted to
jump on:

>if you were to sing Sa four piano whole tones
>higher than most people, it probably would not
>be heard as Sa at all. Does this sound correct?

Nope. The tonic is where you put it. If you have an
extremely high-pitched voice, you'd sing with an
extremely high-pitched tamboura, and the listeners
would adjust.

I will try and contribute some raga definitions
over the next week or so, but I'm off to India for
3 weeks on Feb 20 and will be very busy.

Best,

Warren Senders

[Michael Tandy]

In article <8556595...@dejanews.com>, tst...@natsys.fr says...

>
>In article <5dosdr$l...@news.dhc.net>,
> mpt...@jove.acs.unt.edu (Michael Tandy) wrote:
>> Also, it doesn't sound right to me that musicians come up with their own
>> "characteristic phrases" in a raga.
>
>This is simply how it was put in a "Carnatic music primer" on the net...
>

OK. I can't say much about Karnatika music. I'm reprehensibly
ignorant of it. I'm talking about Hindusthani music.

>> Each raga usually has a fairly standard
>> pakad or svarupa, which I would consider its characteristic phrases. But
>> those may often be subject to debate.
>
>Could you explain what a pakad and svarupa are?

The word "pakad" means something like "catch," as in "catchy tune."
"Svarupa" means the true form of something. These two are more or
less the same. They usually consist of a melodic phrase or several
such phrases which embody the real pith of a given raga's essence.
I knopw that's abstract, but so are ragas. Practically, the pakad
serves to best identify the raga because it consists of its most
charcteristic phrases. For example, in Raga Jhinjhit, the scale
uses all seven notes, with a flat seventh, but so do many other
ragas. So the pakad for Raga Jhinjhit will positively distinguish
it. Jhinjhit's pakad is P D S R M G. This is a simple version.
There are other phrases peculiar to Jhinjhit as well, but the above
one has been given in several authoritative books.

But
>within the *possible* expressions of a raga's personality, couldn't a
>given performer find certain phrases more felicitous and congenial than
>others, and so tend to revisit them when performing the raga?

I think so. But that would have to be a well-educated effort.
-m

[tst...@natsys.fr]

In article <5drgpd$3...@news.dhc.net>,

mpt...@jove.acs.unt.edu (Michael Tandy) wrote:
>
> Practically, the pakad
> serves to best identify the raga because it consists of its most
> charcteristic phrases. For example, in Raga Jhinjhit, the scale
> uses all seven notes, with a flat seventh, but so do many other
> ragas. So the pakad for Raga Jhinjhit will positively distinguish
> it.

Succinctly put! Let me paraphrase some of the answers I've been getting:
a given raga, defined by its component notes, rules on emphasis, ambit,
mood and time of day (in Hindustani music), also has a pakad: one or
more phrases specific to the raga which, in fact, serve as its
identifying manifestation of its characteristics. Taken together, these
things produce the raga's personality or essence.

Would I be going out on a limb to say that the melodic effect of the
pakad is essential to creating the raga's mood?

[tst...@natsys.fr]

In article <deepak-ya0234800...@news.pathcom.com>,
dee...@pathway1.pathcom.com (deepak raag) wrote:

> think of each raag as being a person with a given set of qualities and
> recognizable features. The characteristic phrase are its profiles, as it
> were. If you engage in musical plastic surgery, you are changing the face
> and making it unrecognizable; therefore, you can't come up w/ your own
> char. phrases -- as many other phrases as you want, fine, but not the one's
> that "God" gave the raag.

OK, I've learned that a raga has its own pakars, and you wouldn't
*substitute* others for them. But the improvised sequences a musician
invents during a performance are also "phrases"... mightn't a master
musician have a fondness for certain such phrases, that he or she would
tend to place, in one form or another, in improvisation of a given raga?

> If I didn't hear certain pakars in Darbari, let's
> say, I'd call in Scully and Mulder to open an X file on that raag. Martian
> Thath maybe.

ROFLMWAO! (The W is for Western. <g>)

>
> Not only the face then, we must also consider how the person walks, her own
> particular gait, the way she moves, recogn. even from a distance -- the
> sound of her footfall being only hers and no one else's (she can have
> twins, but not identical). This is the chalan of a raag. The char. phrases
> are the pakars or mukhyan (sp) - faces.

"Chalan" being the famous "mood" of a raag? And what is "mukhyan"?

[tst...@natsys.fr]

In article <3300CF...@nd.edu>,
bos...@nd.edu wrote:

>
> A composition is a few lines of lyrics tuned to a particular raga and

> set to a particular tala. [SNIP]

> There are other lyrics set to other talas that also are in Deskar. These
> other lyrics would be other compositions. Anybody can compose a
> composition ("bandish") in a raga. You or I could pick up today's
> headlines and set them to Deskar in Teen Tala, if we so desired. The
> point is that the bandish puts the notes of the raga in a specific
> rhythmic cycle

It is all becoming clearer...

> The whole point of ascribing, say, a particular time of day or in the
> case of a few ragas, a particular season to a given raga has to do with
> aesthesis (the best translation I've come across for the untranslatable
> word "rasa.") Singing Deskar in the morning jives best with its identity
> as Deskar; the morning brings out the feeling, the "rasa," of Deskar
> best (and vice-versa). The idea is that the raga mimics the experiential
> effect of its time of day. Listening to Mian-Malhar is "like" listening
> to the rains; listening to Kalyan is "like" listening to the evening. So
> one would say that Mian-Malhar's "rasa" is bound up with the rainy
> season; the raga "comes into its own" in the rainy season. I.e.,
> Mian-Malhar "becomes" the rainy season (in the dual sense of "being
> appropriate to" and "turning into"), Darbari "becomes" the late night.

This is a wonderful explanation. Off the top of my head, I wonder if the
changing rhythms of life do not make at least some such classifications
archaic. I doubt that we experience "night" and "morning," let alone the
seasons, with entirely the same connotations as people did centuries or
millenia ago. Perhaps one could come up with new ones, such as the
"office hours" raag or the "paid summer holidays" raag. (Only half
joking!)

[Anand Kuppuswamy]

Surajit A. Bose (bos...@nd.edu) wrote:
: tst...@natsys.fr wrote:

: > Thank you for an exceptionally clear and useful post!

Subject: Re: Raga definition
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.classical
References: <8555800...@dejanews.com> <deepak-ya0234800...@news.pathcom.com> <3300CF...@nd.edu>
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Surajit A. Bose (bos...@nd.edu) wrote:
: tst...@natsys.fr wrote:

: do it, she shouldn't make it an excuse TO do it)--but it's recognizably
: Sa.

: I pitch my Sa at whatever note my voice is most comfortable; the rest of
: the notes take their place in relation to my Sa. If I have an unusually
: high-pitched voice, it doesn't matter; I still pick whatever Sa best
: suits my range. The rest of the chromatic scale is transposed to my
: voice: my top Sa' would be twice the frequency of my tonic, and the rest
: of the notes at the appropriate frequency intervals. (The RMIM archives
: have a couple of very lucid articles on the subject, by Rajan Parrikar.)
: The tanpura (drone) is tuned to establish that tonic, and the
: accompanying instruments (usually tabla and sarangi) are tuned to that
: key. If you have any recordings of Kumar Gandharva, you can hear what I
: mean. His voice is pitched at E# (I think) and that's pretty unusual.
: Most men choose C or C# as their tonic Sa, most women F# or G#.

A small error in an otherwise good posting. I think Kumar Ghandarva's pitch
should be notated as "F" instead of "E#". Some male vocalists do have their
"Sa" much higher than the regular "C#" ... Basavaraj Rajguru is another one
whose's "Sa" is at 'safed-4' or "F" if you have had the chance to listen
to his recordings. I used to start at "G" till a few years back after which
my second guru toned it down to "C#" (kali-1). After the change I have been
noticing that it is harder to train in the lower octave than the upper one.
That could be the reason why some of the male vocalists (with an inherently
hi-pitch) start much higher (than 'C#') ... it is a lot easier to train
in the upper octave (for some). As regards female vocalists I have hardly
heard anybody starting higher than 'G#' except perhaps Lata Mangeshkar/
Asha Bhonsle.

regards,

Anand

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <5dspcc$f...@lana.zippo.com>, Abhinav Jawadekar wrote:

> Some people say that "ranjayati iti ragaha" is actually the definition
> of a raga! Any comments?

Translation: "that which pleases/captivates/fulfills is itself a raga." A
good definition, but begs the question: pleases whom? I think the answer
is not just anybody, but a "rasika"--someone who has the knowledge to
provide proper appreciation, someone who knows "rasa."

In article <5dt35u$9hp$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, ana...@vtaix.cc.vt.edu (Anand
Kuppuswamy) wrote:

> As regards female vocalists I have hardly
> heard anybody starting higher than 'G#' except perhaps Lata Mangeshkar/
> Asha Bhonsle.

Kankana Bannerjee and Parveen Sultana sing in C#. Perhaps Malavika Kanan
too? I'm not entirely sure.

Warren Senders sends me a private e-mail asking me to correct an
inaccuracy in my first post. I said dropping ma and Ni from Bilawal
provides the full-fledged raag Deskar. Shri Senders points out that the
set of notes that remains after dropping these two is not "itself" Deskar;
it's just a set of notes. Deskar comes into being only as a result of
investing these remaining notes with all the attributes of a raag: set of
ascending notes + set of descending notes + emphasis or de-emphasis of
particular notes + ambit + mood + time of day + characteristic phrasing.
Shri Senders is entirely right. Apologies.

Also, Tom, time of day is not the only attribute of a Hindustani raag
inapplicable to the Carnatic concept. The Carnatic concept also does not
include vadi-samvadi (emphasizing a sonant and consonant note). No doubt
there are other specific differences. I keep waiting for some rasika
knowledgeable in Carnatic music to contribute to this thread....

cheers,
-s

[Rakesh Chitradurga]

It is far from a dumb question. In fact it is the essence to the
understanding of the ragas.
In hindusthani music, every raga has a identifier called a PAKAD which
is the essence of the rags. Pakad means just "catch/identification tune"
. This pakad may be multiply used in the raga.
It is used by people both to identify the raga and also to enrich the
raga. parts or the whole of the pakad are used again and again
in the raga. In most cases it would incorporate the mool swaras
like the vadi samvadi etc.

Hope this helps... Regards
Rakesh Chitradurga
( an interested spectator)

********************************
Opinions are mine and do not reflect my companys)
********************************

> P.S. If I had a larger data base of ragas to listen to I could probably
> find the answer myself, but this is not yet the case and I am impatient to
> find out!
>

[Amit Chatterjee]

In article <3311EE...@sdrc.com>,

Rakesh Chitradurga <Rakesh.Ch...@sdrc.com> writes:
>It is far from a dumb question. In fact it is the essence to the
>understanding of the ragas.
>In hindusthani music, every raga has a identifier called a PAKAD which
>is the essence of the rags. Pakad means just "catch/identification tune"

>.. This pakad may be multiply used in the raga.

>It is used by people both to identify the raga and also to enrich the
>raga. parts or the whole of the pakad are used again and again
>in the raga. In most cases it would incorporate the mool swaras
>like the vadi samvadi etc.
>

Here is another definition of Raag as described in the booklet that
came with the CD - Radiant Rendition by Rashid Khan.

RAGA : A melodic concept within strict rules. Ragas are groups of notes
that organize melody. Every Raga has its own nature and personality.
There are certain emperical rules which are adhered to various degrees
of strictness.
1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.
2. A raga should be assigned to a determined scale called Mela or That.
3. Madhyam and Pancham cannot be ommited on the same raga.
4. Aroha and Avaroha should be maintained in a set sequence.
5. Pakad should be maintained by judicious use of minimal number of notes
charactersitc of the raga.

--
************************************************************************
Amit Chatterjee
as...@ix.netcom.com
************************************************************************

[Rajan P. Parrikar]

In article <5eunh9$7...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>,
Amit Chatterjee <as...@ix.netcom.com> quotes from the liner notes:

>Here is another definition of Raag as described in the booklet that
>came with the CD - Radiant Rendition by Rashid Khan.
>
>RAGA : A melodic concept within strict rules.

This sentence conveys no useful information.

>Ragas are groups of notes that organize melody.
>Every Raga has its own nature and personality.

Okay.

>There are certain emperical rules which are adhered to various degrees
>of strictness.

This is confounding - strict rules, then empirical rules, and then
degrees of strictness.

>1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.

Not necessarily. Ragas employing just 4 notes exist (although not
very common). Malashree, Dhavalashree are two examples.

>2. A raga should be assigned to a determined scale called Mela or That.

Why? Mela and That are taxonomic schemes for rAgas. The latter can
well do without the former.

>3. Madhyam and Pancham cannot be ommited on the same raga.

Niroshta rAgas do just fine without the madhyam and pancham.
(Niroshta qualifies rAgas that don't use the lip notes (ma and pa)).

>4. Aroha and Avaroha should be maintained in a set sequence.

I don't know what this means.

>5. Pakad should be maintained by judicious use of minimal number of notes
>charactersitc of the raga.

Okay.

Is it too hard for the CD producers to find someone who can write
an accurate and coherent paragraph or two for the liner-notes?

Warm regards,

r

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <5evls6$t...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU says...
>

>
>>There are certain emperical rules which are adhered to various degrees
>>of strictness.
>
>This is confounding - strict rules, then empirical rules, and then
>degrees of strictness.

I think it implies the empirical rules are not for everyone to
follow :-)

>
>>1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.
>
>Not necessarily. Ragas employing just 4 notes exist (although not
>very common). Malashree, Dhavalashree are two examples.

Yes, I have heard at least 3 rAgas ( mahatI, sumukham and lavangi)
in karnataka style. And can you give me the scales of mAlAshrI and
dhavaLashrI ? My guess is that mahatI is inspired by mAlAshrI.

>>2. A raga should be assigned to a determined scale called Mela or That.
>
>Why? Mela and That are taxonomic schemes for rAgas. The latter can
>well do without the former.
>

In certain cases is it no very difficult ( if not impossible)
to assign a rAga to a mELa or that ? ( With mELas. its easier
than thAts, anyway.)

>>3. Madhyam and Pancham cannot be ommited on the same raga.
>
>Niroshta rAgas do just fine without the madhyam and pancham.
>(Niroshta qualifies rAgas that don't use the lip notes (ma and pa)).

Right. There is a rAga called 'nirOshTa' itself in Karnataka
sangIta. A composition of Muttaiah Bhagavatar also exists.
Althogh it may not be very melodious in the convenctional sense.

Ramaprasad K V
e-mail : r...@genius.tisl.soft.net
kv...@vent.ibm.com

[Rajan P. Parrikar]

In article <5f0ihr$1...@lana.zippo.com>, <Ramaprasad K V> wrote:
>In article <5evls6$t...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU says...

>>>1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.

>>
>>Not necessarily. Ragas employing just 4 notes exist (although not
>>very common). Malashree, Dhavalashree are two examples.
>
> Yes, I have heard at least 3 rAgas ( mahatI, sumukham and lavangi)
> in karnataka style. And can you give me the scales of mAlAshrI and
> dhavaLashrI ? My guess is that mahatI is inspired by mAlAshrI.

Malashree: S G P N
Dhavalashree: S G P D

Both the rAgas use the tivra madhyam as a grace note.

Regards,

r

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <5f3155$4...@lace.colorado.edu>, parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU says...

Do you mean a to say a tinge of tivra madhyama is given between
G & P ? ( As in Shuddha kalyAN ?)

Are all the svaras are shudhdha ( Hindustani notation)

Mahati is S G P n S - S n P G S ( kOmal nishad)

Is the general notation to use upper case for shudhdha and
lower case for komal ?

Ramaprasad K V

>Regards,
>
>
>r

[Amit Chatterjee]

Amit Chatterjee wrote:
>

> Actually, inspite of the inaccuracies, I found in the above CD (Radiant
> Rendition, Rashid Khan)is better than average. Most of the CDs produced
> in India does not even have any write-up on the artists at all.
> Sometimes the name of the tabla player or other accompanist (Sarangi,
> Harmonium, etc) are not mentioned at all.

<snipped>
>

Another interesting CD cover write-up/picture :

I have a CD entitled "The sound of the Mughal Court" produced by this
Japanese Company (very good recording). This has got a nice booklet and
the write-up is reasonably good. However, they have pictures of all the
musicians wearing Western-style clothing. Ashish Khan is dressed up in a
jeans trouser and a Kuta tucked in. His youngest brother (sorry cant
rememebr his name) accompanying him on tabla is wearing a shirt and a
trouser. The two tanpura accompanyist are young Japanes women wearing
Jeans trouser. I am sure people will send me e-mail saying that the
dress is not significant as long as the music is good (which was quite
good, in fact) and I would agree with it somewhat. However, Hindustani
music without hindustani costume is kind of odd. I am sure the artists
above wears Indian costumes once in a while so they could have easily
photographed them with proper costume specially when the title mentions
something about Mughal courts.

--
/***************************************************************************
Amit Chatterjee
E-mail me at as...@ix.netcom.com

All opinions are mine, not NORTEL's.
****************************************************************************/

[Amit Chatterjee]

Rajan P. Parrikar wrote:
>
> In article <5eunh9$7...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>,
> Amit Chatterjee <as...@ix.netcom.com> quotes from the liner notes:
>
> >Here is another definition of Raag as described in the booklet that
> >came with the CD - Radiant Rendition by Rashid Khan.
> >
> >RAGA : A melodic concept within strict rules.
>
> This sentence conveys no useful information.
>

I think the fellow who wrote this stuff had Western audience in mind.
What he is trying to say above is that a Raag is not a composition in
the Western Classical music sense of the term. It is not a piece where
the notes are all pre-decided and the musicians have the notes in front
of them while playing the music. Basically, the above statement is
trying to show that improvisation plays an important rule
Hindustani/Karnatic music although these improvisations have to follow
some strict rules.

> >Ragas are groups of notes that organize melody.
> >Every Raga has its own nature and personality.
>
> Okay.
>

> >There are certain emperical rules which are adhered to various degrees
> >of strictness.
>
> This is confounding - strict rules, then empirical rules, and then
> degrees of strictness.
>

This is a "disclaimer". The author is trying to say that the rules below
have notable exceptions like the ones you pointed out.

> >1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.
>
> Not necessarily. Ragas employing just 4 notes exist (although not
> very common). Malashree, Dhavalashree are two examples.
>

See the disclaimer above.

> >2. A raga should be assigned to a determined scale called Mela or That.
>
> Why? Mela and That are taxonomic schemes for rAgas. The latter can
> well do without the former.
>

Agreed. Maybe the guy did not know this.

> >3. Madhyam and Pancham cannot be ommited on the same raga.
>
> Niroshta rAgas do just fine without the madhyam and pancham.
> (Niroshta qualifies rAgas that don't use the lip notes (ma and pa)).
>

See the disclaimer above.

> >4. Aroha and Avaroha should be maintained in a set sequence.
>
> I don't know what this means.
>

I must admit it did not make any sense to me too.

> >5. Pakad should be maintained by judicious use of minimal number of notes
> >charactersitc of the raga.
>
> Okay.
>
> Is it too hard for the CD producers to find someone who can write
> an accurate and coherent paragraph or two for the liner-notes?
>

Actually, inspite of the inaccuracies, I found in the above CD (Radiant

Rendition, Rashid Khan)is better than average. Most of the CDs produced
in India does not even have any write-up on the artists at all.
Sometimes the name of the tabla player or other accompanist (Sarangi,
Harmonium, etc) are not mentioned at all.

Some of them CD produced in the US/Europe have serious typos (example
Zakir Hussain spelled as Zakir Fussain). One of the first CD I bought
was Ali Akbar - Ravi Shankar jugalbandi with Kanai Dutta on the tabla
(Bilaskhani Todi, Palas Kafi, etc.) and the raags were mentioned in
wrong sequence. I sent them a letter pointing out the mistake and the
other day (about four years later), I found the same CD with the same
mistake. Probably, no one cares.

[buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca]

Amit Chatterjee (chat...@nortel.ca) wrote:
: Actually, inspite of the inaccuracies, I found in the above CD (Radiant

: Rendition, Rashid Khan)is better than average. Most of the CDs produced
: in India does not even have any write-up on the artists at all.
: Sometimes the name of the tabla player or other accompanist (Sarangi,
: Harmonium, etc) are not mentioned at all.

: Some of them CD produced in the US/Europe have serious typos (example
: Zakir Hussain spelled as Zakir Fussain). One of the first CD I bought
: was Ali Akbar - Ravi Shankar jugalbandi with Kanai Dutta on the tabla
: (Bilaskhani Todi, Palas Kafi, etc.) and the raags were mentioned in
: wrong sequence. I sent them a letter pointing out the mistake and the
: other day (about four years later), I found the same CD with the same
: mistake. Probably, no one cares.

the best series of liner notes i've seen in CDs is in the Nimbus Indian
Classical series - the notes always give a brief explaination of raga and
tala (mentioning things like Sa Re Ga...), give a few characteristic
phrases of the raga, and a brief overview of the performance. for someone
still trying to escape the bonds of newbie-hood, they're very helpful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Buhr buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Savour the Irony bu...@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca
http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger

[Mohan Parthasarathy]

>
> Mahati is S G P n S - S n P G S ( kOmal nishad)
>

What is the arohana/avarohana of VeenaVadini ?

-mohan

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <5ffahi$r...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, moh...@ahiri.eng.sun.com says...

>
>
>>
>> Mahati is S G P n S - S n P G S ( kOmal nishad)
>>
>What is the arohana/avarohana of VeenaVadini ?
>
>-mohan
>
>

vINAvAdini is S R G P n S' - S' n P G R S ( from the 28th mELa)

And while I'm at this , I have a question about this rAga. From
when is this rAga in practice ? Who gave this name ? Till now
the only composition I have heard is "Sri gaNEshAtparam" sung
by Yesudas. This is a kriti of Dikshitar in Raga Ardradeshi. So
who did the changeover ? Is there any validity to it ?

And I have also heard a casette of Yesudas, where he renders
"gnyAnamosagarAda". In the inlay card mentions the rAga as
ShadvidhamArgiNi ( The rAga supposedly in which TyagarAja has
composed this kriti ) But to my ears , it seemed to be like
Gamanashrama :-( . ( It is a Tarangini release) Any comments ?

[Mohan Parthasarathy]

And I have also heard a casette of Yesudas, where he renders
"gnyAnamosagarAda". In the inlay card mentions the rAga as
ShadvidhamArgiNi ( The rAga supposedly in which TyagarAja has
composed this kriti ) But to my ears , it seemed to be like
Gamanashrama :-( . ( It is a Tarangini release) Any comments ?

Is it not Poorvi Kalyani ? I have seen recordings by Mhahrajapuram
Santhanam where it was mentioned Poorvi Kalyani. But some used
to say that it is Gamanashrama.

-mohan

[Srini Pichumani]

In article <5fg8ed$g...@lana.zippo.com>, <Ramaprasad K V> wrote:
>
> Mahati is S G P n S - S n P G S ( kOmal nishad)
>>
>>
>>What is the arohana/avarohana of VeenaVadini ?
>>
>>-mohan
>>
>
> vINAvAdini is S R G P n S' - S' n P G R S ( from the 28th mELa)
>
> And while I'm at this , I have a question about this rAga. From
> when is this rAga in practice ? Who gave this name ? Till now
> the only composition I have heard is "Sri gaNEshAtparam" sung
> by Yesudas. This is a kriti of Dikshitar in Raga Ardradeshi. So
> who did the changeover ?
>
> Is there any validity to it ?

Zilch, afaik. Yesudas must have learnt it from
some dubious source.

As for Mahati, I think Balamurali may have been
come upon on the scale just by inspiration from
the tones of the tambura... apart from the straight
S and P notes of the strings, overtones that stand
out clearly are G3 and N2 (septimal) from the mandra
string... depending on the quality of the strings
and the resonance of the instrument, these overtones
can be heard loud and clear and become "assertive"
too... hence there is no gainsaying the fact that
it can motivate a musician with the compulsions
_and_ genius of Balamurali !!!

-Srini.

ps: There are certainly problems with the above
rationalization, since the P string produces a
strong R2 overtone and a significantly weaker
N3. So Veenavadini, Hamsadhvani, and a whole
lot of masaalaa are possible !

[Rakesh Chitradurga]

> Here is another definition of Raag as described in the booklet that
> came with the CD - Radiant Rendition by Rashid Khan.
>

> RAGA : A melodic concept within strict rules. Ragas are groups of notes

> that organize melody. Every Raga has its own nature and personality.

True till here ...

> There are certain emperical rules which are adhered to various degrees
> of strictness.

Makes no sense...

> 1. A raga must be at-least pentatonic.

Not necessarily. There are rags with fewer notes !!

> 2. A raga should be assigned to a determined scale called Mela or That.

What .. A raga is not " assigned" to anything ...The mela or the that
is just a construct to assign order to the classification schema...

> 3. Madhyam and Pancham cannot be ommited on the same raga.

Do not agree... There are ragas which do not have both ...

> 4. Aroha and Avaroha should be maintained in a set sequence.

what does this mean ???

> 5. Pakad should be maintained by judicious use of minimal number of notes
> charactersitc of the raga.

Pakad is not maintained in the raga ... It is a characteristic of the
raga ... I agree with the minimal definition ...

regard s
Rakesh

char *p="char
*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
<< If you knew what this does, you would know what this does !! >>
***********************************************************************

[Mohan Parthasarathy]

> As for Mahati, I think Balamurali may have been
> come upon on the scale just by inspiration from
> the tones of the tambura... apart from the straight
> S and P notes of the strings, overtones that stand
> out clearly are G3 and N2 (septimal) from the mandra
> string... depending on the quality of the strings
> and the resonance of the instrument, these overtones
> can be heard loud and clear and become "assertive"
> too... hence there is no gainsaying the fact that
> it can motivate a musician with the compulsions
> _and_ genius of Balamurali !!!
>
> -Srini.
>

There is a story to why this Raag came into existence.
It may not be true, but still..

M.S. Viswananthan - one of the great musician of the
Tamil Cinema, wanted to compose a song for Aboorva
Raagangal. He wanted a new Raag. Apparently, he consulted
Balamurali. That's when Mahati came into existence.

The song " Adisaya Raagam Ananda Raagam..." initially
conforms to Mahati and drifts into Bairavi.

-mohan

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <5fi29q$m...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, moh...@ahiri.eng.sun.com says...

Yes, it is sung in pUrvikalyANi, almost without exeption.
But supposedly tyAgarAja composed this in ShadvidhamArgiNi.

There are such instances of the rAga being changed. In fact
it is doubted if tyAgarAja composed all the kriti's in
kAmavardhini in ShubhapantuvarALi - for in almost all the
sources the rAga is mentioned as pantuvarALi. And tyAgarAja ,
who chose the rAga names form the gOvindAchArya's scheme ,
with the katapayAdi scheme, should have used the name
kAmavardhini, instead of pantuvarALi.

And other such instances are rAmA nIyeda ( supposedly in
dilIpaka sung in kharaharapriya, ) nEnendu vedakudurA
( supposedly in karnAtaka bEhAg , sung in harikAmbOji etc.

Ramaprasad K V
e.mail : r...@genius.tisl.soft.net

[Sridhar - Seshagiri]

Ramaprasad, K, V wrote:
>
>
> There are such instances of the rAga being changed. In fact
> it is doubted if tyAgarAja composed all the kriti's in
> kAmavardhini in ShubhapantuvarALi - for in almost all the
> sources the rAga is mentioned as pantuvarALi.

I always thought that Panthuvarali and Kamavardhini were the same raga
?? I think I read somewhere that the 'Dikshitar school' calls
Panthuvarali as Kamavardhini (because Dikshitar also included the raga's
name in his compositions as his 'mudrai' in most of his compositions and
that therefore there are many such instances where the same ragam is
known under different names.) Guess Dikshitar's Sivananda Kamavardhinim
is in Panthuvarali but is mentioned in most places as Kamavardhini ?
Please let me know if this is correct.

-Sridhar.

PS :Is this ragam also called Kasiramakriya by any chance ??

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <331EE1...@egr.msu.edu>, Sridhar says...

>
>Ramaprasad, K, V wrote:
>>
>>
>> There are such instances of the rAga being changed. In fact
>> it is doubted if tyAgarAja composed all the kriti's in
>> kAmavardhini in ShubhapantuvarALi - for in almost all the
>> sources the rAga is mentioned as pantuvarALi.
>
>I always thought that Panthuvarali and Kamavardhini were the same raga ??

Generally it is understood in that way. Though it may not be
very proper theoritically.

>I think I read somewhere that the 'Dikshitar school' calls
>Panthuvarali as Kamavardhini (because Dikshitar also included the raga's
>name in his compositions as his 'mudrai' in most of his compositions and
>that therefore there are many such instances where the same ragam is
>known under different names.) Guess Dikshitar's Sivananda Kamavardhinim
>is in Panthuvarali but is mentioned in most places as Kamavardhini ?
>Please let me know if this is correct.
>
>-Sridhar.

>
>PS :Is this ragam also called Kasiramakriya by any chance ??

Dikshitar school calls kAmavardhini as kAs'IrAmakriya.
But generally people refer to kAmavardhini as pantuvarALi,
I'll eleborate this with a little history of rAga names.

Dikshitar school calls this as kAs'IrAmakriya. I'm not aware of the
kriti you mention. It is almost certain that M.dIkshita knew the names
of gOvindAchArya's scheme as well. For example his kriti in s'aila
-dEs'Akshi starts with SrI s'UlinIm . ANd s'Ulini is the name of the
35th mELa in sampUrNa mELa paddhati and s'aila dEs'Akshi in the asampUrNa
scheme. Another example is his "Sri nIlOtpala nAyike" in rItigouLa
where the charaNa goes like

dIna janArthi prabhanjana rIti gouravE
..............chidrUpiNi nata bhairavE

rItigouLa is the 20th mELa in the asampUrNa scheme and naTabhairavi
is the 20th in the sampUrNa mELa scheme.

Now, coming to the issue of kAmavardhani, the ancient name of this
rAga is rAmakriya. Almost all musical works mention three rAgas ,
which are generally considered mELas, viz : varALi, pantuvarALi and
rAmakriya.These rAgas differ only in their gAndhAra. Sometimes,
varALi has been termed s'udhdha varAli also. So for the later asampUrNa
mELa scheme it was very appropriate to call these three mELas as
dhAli varAli, s'iva pantuvarALi and kAs'IrAmakriya, along with the
katapayAdi prefixes. In Dikshitar's "uchchishta gaNapatim" the rAga
mudre is given as "rAmakriya" only.

We should keep in mind that while the asampUrNa mELa scheme kept the
name of the mELa , from a very popular rAga of that mEla, the
sampUrNa mELa scheme gave entirely new names and assigned krama sampUrNa
scales to them. So, in the asampUrNa scheme rAgAs like kEdAragouLa,
rItigoula, sri and vasanta bhairavi were termed mELas and assigned
positions in the 72 mELa scheme. And the sampUrNa scheme formed krama
sampUrNa scales like harikAmbOji, naTabhairavi, kharaharapriya and
vakuLabharaNa ( just examples , I have give corresponding to the
asamPUrNa mELas I have mentioned) - many of which did not have a rAga
stature before that time. So Dikhita's names have much of historic
support.

Tyagaraja followed the sampUrNa mELa scheme - and his compositions
in harikAmbOji , kharaharapriya show. So would he call the kritis
in the mELa 51 as kAmavardhini or rAmakriya ? More likely answer is
kAmavardhini.But in most of the sources , the rAgas for his kritis
like appa rAmabhakti, s'iva s'iva etc is mentioned as pantuvarAli.
What does it indicate ? Just like even though 65th mELa is kalYani,
it is generally refered to as kalyANi, the 45th mELa s'ubha pantuvarAli,
can be famous as pantuvarALi - withoiut the katapayAdi prefix. So
the theory of tyAgarAja's kritis in Kamavardhini being originally
in (s'ubha)pantuvarALi.

It is not known who did the changeover ( if it was done) Must have
happened by some s'ishya of tyAgrAja. And so , as the kritis became
popular, the rAga with antrara gAndhara , itself was started to be
called as pantuvarALi as the particular kriti was mentioned as
pantuvarALi in manuscripts !

It is quite interesting to know that in Tamil Nadu, kAmavardhini is
almost, as a rule termed as pantuvarAli, in Karnataka , the name
kAmavardhini is more popular. ( In Karnataka they say, pantuvarALi
is nothing but kAmavardhini, and in Tamil nadu , other way. )

[ramaprasad_k_v]

In article <5fo8fn$h18$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, sr...@quip.eecs.umich.edu says...

>
>In article <5flg7h$s...@lana.zippo.com>, <Ramaprasad K V> wrote:
>>
>> There are such instances of the rAga being changed. In fact
>> it is doubted if tyAgarAja composed all the kriti's in
>> kAmavardhini in ShubhapantuvarALi - for in almost all the

>> sources the rAga is mentioned as pantuvarALi. And tyAgarAja ,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> who chose the rAga names form the gOvindAchArya's scheme ,

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> with the katapayAdi scheme, should have used the name

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> kAmavardhini, instead of pantuvarALi.
>
>Although Tyagaraja seems to have followed a sampUrNa mELa paddhati and
>composed in many old/new sampUrNa mELas and various other new ragas,
>it is by no means clear that he used the Samgraha-Chudamani text, or
>that he chose raga names from it.
>

I think I should have just used " The sampUrNa mELa" scheme ,
In fact that was what I had in my mind. Govinda's name just
slipped in :-(

>There is a tradition that he never gave out the raga names for his
>compositions. Hence, manuscripts of Tyagaraja kritis are said to
>have just had the marking "apUrva" for the raga name, before many a
>composition.

Thanks for this info.

>Historically, it is only with the printed books of Taccur Singaracharlu
>in the 1870s that various raga names cropped up and became popular.
>These include the sampUrNa mELa names like Kharaharapriya, HarikAmbhoji,
>Shanmukhapriya, NaTabhairavi (known as Narabhairavi in the Samgraha
>Chudamani) and others like navarasakannada, kapinarayani, kuntalavarali,
>andolika, etc.
>
>Now, the Samgraha Chudamani text somehow has lakSaNa gitas for all these
>new ragas supposed to have been created/popularized by Tyagaraja... even
>for some ragas known to have become popular only in the post-Tyagaraja
>period... hence this text (or major portions of it) seems to post-date
>Tyagaraja in many ways. These issues and various other textual problems
>led a few scholars like TLV to entirely discount this text or at least
>vast portions of it.
>
>-Srini.

I've read Prof R Satyanarayana saying that there is a belief that
the "svarArNava" supposedly given by nArada to tyAgarAja was
nothing other than "sangraha chUDamaNi". He does not mention the
source for this belief.

Ramaprasad K V

e.mail : r...@genius.tisl.soft.net

p.s : While many of the names in the later kanakAmbari scheme
do have the katapayAdi prefix, why no such prefix exists for
Sri rAga mELa ? Any info ?

[Srini Pichumani]

In article <5flg7h$s...@lana.zippo.com>, <Ramaprasad K V> wrote:
>
> There are such instances of the rAga being changed. In fact
> it is doubted if tyAgarAja composed all the kriti's in
> kAmavardhini in ShubhapantuvarALi - for in almost all the
> sources the rAga is mentioned as pantuvarALi. And tyAgarAja ,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> who chose the rAga names form the gOvindAchArya's scheme ,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with the katapayAdi scheme, should have used the name
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> kAmavardhini, instead of pantuvarALi.

Although Tyagaraja seems to have followed a sampUrNa mELa paddhati and
composed in many old/new sampUrNa mELas and various other new ragas,
it is by no means clear that he used the Samgraha-Chudamani text, or
that he chose raga names from it.

There is a tradition that he never gave out the raga names for his

compositions. Hence, manuscripts of Tyagaraja kritis are said to
have just had the marking "apUrva" for the raga name, before many a
composition.

Historically, it is only with the printed books of Taccur Singaracharlu

[Sridhar - Seshagiri]

Sridhar - Seshagiri wrote:

> Guess Dikshitar's Sivananda Kamavardhinim is in Panthuvarali

Sorry, I guess I goofed up. It was just brought to my notice that
Sivananda K.. is GNB's composition and not Dikshitar's.

Cheers,
Sridhar.

[sr...@testpin.engin.umich.edu]

In article <5fodcg$7...@lana.zippo.com>, Ramaprasad K V wrote:
>
> I've read Prof R Satyanarayana saying that there is a belief that
> the "svarArNava" supposedly given by nArada to tyAgarAja was
> nothing other than "sangraha chUDamaNi". He does not mention the
> source for this belief.

Prof.S.R.Janakiraman too mentioned this in a lec-dem but didn't
elaborate. My guess is that this "critical" opinion got started in order
to counteract the hagiographers' claim. I remember seeing a sahasranAma
style "dEvI uvAca... paramEs'vara uvAca" section in the text, that deals
with music. Wonder if that is the origin of this opinion.

> p.s : While many of the names in the later kanakAmbari scheme
> do have the katapayAdi prefix, why no such prefix exists for
> Sri rAga mELa ? Any info ?

Simple... s'rIrAga is the name by which it has always been known... and
that itself yields 22.

OTOH, if you consider it just as the mono-syllable s'rI, there may be an
exception in Vararuci's kaTapayAdi rule for such cases to replicate the
sankhya decimally... i.e. a lone 2 becomes 22... jushtu kidding !

-Srini.

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