Tabla Players - Gharanas, Solo Recordings etc. etc.
A.Pavan
that never quite got mentioned or were poorly represented in the discussion.
For example, Shafaat Ahmed Khan, who I have heard in concert with Hariprasad
and Amjad Ali Khan, was brilliant on both occasions. I also have several
recordings of his (mosly with Shivkumar Sharma) which are also of high
quality. And then there is Manikrao Popatkar, who has accopmanied Hariprasad,
Shivkumar and Kabra in the past (early and mid seventies). He also appears
on the popular album "Call of the Valley". I find his 'theka' to be one of
the most beautiful - plain, simple yet full of richness in the sound quality.
Also there is Kashinath Mishra who I heard with Hariprasad on two occasions - I
guess one of those low profile high quality Tabla players (perhaps a higher
quality teacher). My grand Guruji (my Gurji's Guruji), who was settled in
Hyderabad, Ustad Sheikh Dawood Khan Doyen, was considered one of the standing
pillars of Purab Baaj. Birju Maharajji was in Minneapolis recently and I
had a small conversation with him about Sheikh Dawood Khan Saheb. Maharajji
remembered him fondly and commented that he considers him along with Kishen
<Marajji to be one of the finest Tabal players ever. One of the hallmarks
of Dawood Khan's playing was his ability to remain absolutely still while
his hands and fingers would be doing magic. Sadly he passed away couple of
years ago. One of Ravi Shankar's proteges - Abhiman Kaushal, who now tours
with Panditji, is Dawood Khan's disciple. Although he had many sons (can't
remember how many) I don't think anyone of them made it big in the music
circles. Manikrao Popatkar also passed away a few years ago. Anyone know more
about him ? How about Kashinath Mishra, Shafaat Ahmed Khan, Inaayat Hussein Khan ?
We have haerda enough about how Zakir and Anindo are great Tablya players and
how Kumar Bose in not so good. Someone expressed suprise as to how this guy
gets to perform with Panditji and Vilayat Khan and their likes ? Well,
obviously they think differently from you. I have heard Kumar Bose in
concert with Panditji (although just once) and he was quite good that day.
I especially remember his exquisite 'Tihaais' matching Panditji's superb
layakaari in 'Chaar Taal Ki Sawari'. How about Abdul Sattar Tari - the brilliant
Tabla player who learnt from Shaukat Hussein Khan of Pakistan (Alla Rakhas
Gur Bhai). While on Kumar Bose, one of his students (Ok, he learnt initially from
Kumar's father Biswanath Bose), is quite good. His name is Kaushik Sen. He
was in Minneapolis last year and I heard him perform with dance, instrumental
and ghazals. He was brilliant in all three.
It is really unfortunate that the Zakir Baaj has become so popular that people
even seem to forget sometimes there is someone else on the stage too. After a
recent concert of Briju Maharaj where Zakir 'accompanied' I heard people
remark - "Geez ! Zakir blasted the heck out of Birju Maharaj !" God enlighten these folks !
It will be nice to have someone complie a list of Tabaliyas along with their
Gharaanas and list of memorable recordings (both solo and accompaniment). My
personal favorites are Swapan Chaudhary, Sabir Khan and Abdul Sattar Tari.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
pa...@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu Off: 612-626-7509 Res:612-341-0708
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Makarand A. Kulkarni
Further to your post, Pavan there is one tabla player that I feel
belongs in the tabla pantheon. Has anybody heard or heard of
Balkrishnan Iyer? Mallikarjun Mansoor fans would be interested to
know BI has been accompanying MM since he (BI) was fifteen years
old and accompanied MM upto his death.
He has had several gurus and has been accomanying distinguished
musicians since he was very young. I guess he needs to appear
on Planet Drum or pose for a photograph with Babatunde Olatunji
to catch the attention of the rest of the world.
You mentioned Abhimaan Kaushal only in passing. Yet another
amazing tabla player, and he is only twenty one.
I agree with you re. Kumar Bose. I will drop a name here, I know
Kartick Sheshadri (Ravi Shankar's senior disciple) and he has let
me sit on his riyaaz on a few occasions. We were once talking about
tabla players and how important the tabla player is in Ravi Shankar's
layakari style; he loves Kumar Bose.
Sometimes I find the opinions expressed on this net to be very strong
and quite unjustified. After all who has made the nettors the judge
and jury of the music? Heck, this net has a vast readership and such
opinions may well influence someone out there. I think that is
unfair.
Regards
Makarand
maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov
A.Pavan
Another couple of notable Tabla players who did not get mentioned - Suresh
Talwalkar (you can check him out on the Nimbus label along with Ram Narayan)
and his disciple Vijay Ghate. Vijay Ghate was in Minneapolis couple of times
in the last year and a half and left me impressed with his playing overall.
Among the artists he performs more regularly with is Shahid Parvez Khan and has
a few recordings with him (including a couple of CDs) - check out the music
today series. Yes, I have heard about Balakrishna Iyer but have heard only
his accompaniment to MM (i.e only to vocal). I would be interested in
hearing his instrumental accompaniment. Another upcoming Tabla player is
Nishikant Barodekar, grandson of the illustrious Hirabai Barodekar.
Nishikant was in Minneapolis with Pt. Ulhas Bapat (santoor). He showed
flashes of brilliance in his playing though it appeared the artists were
very tired after their hectic two month tour and this was theri very last
concert before they were to return. I have a CD of Shahid Parvez with
Nishikant accompanying him on the Tabla. Here is where he impressed me with
his playing.
Among the younger crop of players, the ones who have most impressed me are
Sukhvinder Namadhari (Pinky) and Kaushik Sen (disciple of Kumar Bose).
It is unfortunate that knowledgeable netters on the net oftentimes come up
with such strong opinions about artists. Most notable among the recent
artist bashings has been Kumar Bose. Agreed you might not like his Tabla
playing for whatever reason but to label him as mediocre, when he is highly
respected in the musical circles (this is from talking with a person who
is very close to lotsa artists in the big league), is highly unfair. According
to this person, Panditji is extremely fond of Kumar and considers him one
of the best accompanysts he has had. Little wonder why Kumar went on to
accompany Panditji for this long. I must admit however I have not heard Kumar
all that much - one concert of Ravi Shankar and couple of recordings. But I
did get to hear a LOT from his disciple Kaushik Sen who was simply brilliant in
all aspoects of Tabla playing - with vocal, with dance and instrumental and even
with light music. Check him out.
Cheers.
Pavan
Makarand A. Kulkarni
>In article <23oc97...@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, maka...@gazelle.larc.nasa.gov (Makarand A. Kulkarni) writes:
>
>Another couple of notable Tabla players who did not get mentioned - Suresh
>Talwalkar (you can check him out on the Nimbus label along with Ram Narayan)
>and his disciple Vijay Ghate. Vijay Ghate was in Minneapolis couple of times
>in the last year and a half and left me impressed with his playing overall.
>Among the artists he performs more regularly with is Shahid Parvez Khan and has
>a few recordings with him (including a couple of CDs) - check out the music
>today series. Yes, I have heard about Balakrishna Iyer but have heard only
>his accompaniment to MM (i.e only to vocal). I would be interested in
>hearing his instrumental accompaniment. Another upcoming Tabla player is
>Nishikant Barodekar, grandson of the illustrious Hirabai Barodekar.
>Nishikant was in Minneapolis with Pt. Ulhas Bapat (santoor). He showed
>flashes of brilliance in his playing though it appeared the artists were
>very tired after their hectic two month tour and this was theri very last
>concert before they were to return. I have a CD of Shahid Parvez with
>Nishikant accompanying him on the Tabla. Here is where he impressed me with
>his playing.
>
>Among the younger crop of players, the ones who have most impressed me are
>Sukhvinder Namadhari (Pinky) and Kaushik Sen (disciple of Kumar Bose).
>
>
>
>
>Pavan
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>pa...@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu Off: 612-626-7509 Res:612-341-0708
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard Balkrishnan Iyer (maybe I should be fashionable and claim
"I know him as Bala") live with Raghunath Seth. Of Ragunath Seth's
admission at the post concert party was that the music was elevated
as a result of BI's tabla playing. BI does "have the music in him".
Suresh Talwalkar's wife is also a classical singer, Padma Talwalkar.
I have heard quite a few of her recordings and have heard her live
once in Bombay. I dont react very much to her music.
Regards
Makarand
maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov
John Campana
>In article <CB8u4...@news2.cis.umn.edu> pa...@myria.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) writes:
>>In article <23oc97...@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, maka...@gazelle.larc.nasa.gov (Makarand A. Kulkarni) writes:
>[snip snip]
>admission at the post concert party was that the music was elevated
>as a result of BI's tabla playing. BI does "have the music in him".
>Suresh Talwalkar's wife is also a classical singer, Padma Talwalkar.
>I have heard quite a few of her recordings and have heard her live
>once in Bombay. I dont react very much to her music.
In my humble opinion, Padmatai is perhaps the best among the female
vocalists in India today, apart from Kishori Amonkar. She has achieved
a unique blend of Jaipur (learned from Mogubai) and Gajananbuwa Joshi
(Gwalior). Whatever moves you.
John Campana
>
>Regards
>Makarand
>maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov
>
>
>
Prasad Kharkar
> In article <CB8u4...@news2.cis.umn.edu> pa...@myria.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) writes:
> >In article <23oc97...@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, maka...@gazelle.larc.nasa.gov (Makarand A. Kulkarni) writes:
Among the younger crop of players, the ones who have most impressed me is
Anish Pradhan (disciple of Pt. Nikhil Ghosh). I heard him a couple of times
in NCPA, Bombay with Budhadev Dasgupta and Budhaditya Mukherjee. He was
just too excellent.
Regards.
-Prasad
khar...@sparkie.ebay.sun.com
AS...@asuacad.bitnet
(John Campana) says:
>
>
>In my humble opinion, Padmatai is perhaps the best among the female
>vocalists in India today, apart from Kishori Amonkar. She has achieved
>a unique blend of Jaipur (learned from Mogubai) and Gajananbuwa Joshi
>(Gwalior). Whatever moves you.
>
>John Campana
>>
It is a pleasure to see so many Marathi ladies in the forefront of Hindustani
vocal. Surely Maharashtra is blessed to have them for so many years. Surely
there is dispute among the fans to decide who is the queen among them. It
will depend on who you get to listen and who strikes the chord within you.
I would like to cast my humble vote in favour of Veena Sahasrabuddhe as the
reigning queen. Let me remind you who all are on ballot paper.
Mogubai Kurdikar
Malini Rajurkar
Hirabai Badodekar
Kishori Amonkar alias shApit yakshiNi
Veena Sahasrabuddhe
Padma Talwalkar
Shruti Sadolikar
Arati Ankalikar
Prabha Atre
Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande
Who is Ashwini's mother?
Does Lalit Rao belong here?
Yes there are many more names. Can someone help?
Pankaj
>
>
Makarand A. Kulkarni
John, you probably know this, has Suresh Talwalkar ever accompanied Padmatai?
I have to settle a bet with my dad.
Regards
Makarand
Corvin Russell
Is that Kartick Kumar, or another disciple of raviji's named Kartick?
>
>
>Sometimes I find the opinions expressed on this net to be very strong
>and quite unjustified. After all who has made the nettors the judge
>and jury of the music?
Well, I think this is a question that occurs to all of us at least
occasionally as we write on the net. From my own perspective I know
that I would never speak in front of my guru with the confidence I
might assume on the net. This is because in front of my guru such
confidence would be unseemly, unwarranted, and downright hubristik and
self-inflated. I.e. I would be bullshitting, because I don't really
have the knowledge to make definitive judgments about the music at
all, nor am I likely to accumulate such for a long time. This is my
place as a student of the music, and it is also the wider context in
which my comments on the net must be viewed, I feel. However, I am
also a listener of the music, and the net is the place where i indulge
my privileges as a listener (and to put it crudely, a customer) of the
music, though this role is in my mind secondary to being a student.
As a listener I guess I could be considered somewhat knowledgeable,
and as a listener it is also somewhat incumbent on me to exercise my
knowledge in a critical approach to the music. This is not a
newfangled idea,; it is the time-honoured tradition of the true
"rasik" in Indian music, and it is a tradition which is rapidly
declining, in my opinion, and to the great loss of the music. The
rasik (or sahrdaya) may never have learned music formally, though
usually he/she had a little training. Mostly their schooling was a
sustained and dedicated listening to the music which gave them a
profound ability to discern good music from bad, AND which earned them
the respect of performers. Nowadays performers bemoan the lack of
such knowledgeable audiences as they say the music loses a great deal
without the active response of the listeners. I see rmic as at least
partially an attempt to sustain such a critical listenership, though
it be distended in space as it is. Part of this critical listenership
is being able and obliged not only not to "vah" when something is bad,
but to say it is bad. We're not doing anyone (even the musician) a
favour by politiely ignoring bad music. John's example of the
performance where Marwa was played with "ma" tuned to "pa" is a
travesty which deserves not only a scolding, but probably a kick in
that part of the anatomy to whose rodent analogue frequent reference
has here been made. Of course all our opinions must be taken with a
grain of salt, and I would hope that people were capable of being
critical of rmic posts as well (as they indeed seem to be!). You are
right that sometimes strong opinions are given which are unjustified.
This happens with positive as well as negative comments, and both are
equally undesirable. There's nothing more insipid than endless praise
heaped upon musician after musician with empty words like "excellent",
"amazing", etc. in the treacly style of the Bay Area's own _India
Currents_. On the other hand, just because a strong opinon is
unjustified, it doesn't mean it's unjustifiable, and perhaps an
appropriate response would be to ask the original poster for a
justification.
You may or may not want to know what I look for in a tabla player, but
I'll tell you anyway.
WHAT I LOOK FOR IN A TABLA PLAYER. BY CORVIN RUSSELL, ASPIRING JUST
TO BE A GOOD TABLA STUDENT (NOT THERE YET).
In tabla solo:
Compositions, compositions, compositions. Without comopisitions there
is no tabla solo, period. Those who play "tabla solo" as an endless
"improvisation" of random bols and high speed terekite, dhenegene etc.
get the axe without mercy. Sorry, it's total crap. This shortcoming
consumes several well-known tabla players, I'm afraid to say. I would
rather listen to a first year tabla student plodding out a full
rendition of "dhate tedha tete..." than endure totally ungrammatical
and insubstantial bols even from a tabla player whose technique seemed
(at first glance, anyway) to be fast and polished. I really mean
that. Abuse of layakari is also a killer, with very few exceptions.
Alla Rakha used rhythm in such a sublime and beautiful way, he's on a
different level. Otherwise people often try to mask empty bols by
constantly changing the chhand and the gun. This is extremely boring
to me. Most people can learn to play e.g. jhaptal theka over tintal
theka with a little practice. Such devices have their place, when
used sparingly and in good taste. (When is it in good taste? This is
a matter of judgment I guess. it would be too case specific to
explain here. But for instance, if after two minutes of the solo I
heard someone playing jhaptal theka against tintal theka, I would be
very skeptical. If after many long pieces of a serious nature have
been played I here such a device, it doesn't concern me, especially
where it leads to an extended development in that chhand such as one
might find in Banaras playing. this is just to use a very specific
example.) So in your average tabla solo I expect to hear a lot of
good compositions -- uthan, peshkar, kaida, rela, kaida-rela, chalan,
etc. Because of my Lucknow training I concentrate very heavily on the
bol. Is it beautiful? Is it interesting? Is it difficult? Is it
unusual? I like to hear a wide variety of bols, though in the highly
structured Banaras solos this loses out a bit in return for other very
satisfying elements. How many times can I listen to the kaida
dha-terekitetaka terekitedha-tere kitetakaterekite dhinagena
dhatidhage dhinagena dhatidhage tinakena?
this is a very beautiful and subtle composition, at least as I have
learned it. But it refelects a very small part of the universe of
tabla bols. To hear it over and over again, and others very similar
to it, becomes tiresome.
In any composition, the development of the theme should be sustained,
whatever style the development is in. Some compositions allow for
(and some almost require) the introduction of new bols during the
development, if done in a graceful and proper manner. However, random
peppering of terkitetaka and other high-speed bols that indicate the
tabliya is either bored or lost or both do nothing to improve my
experience of the performance. Are there startling or expecially
difficult variations? Does the tabliya challenge himself/herself and
the listener? Is there a sustained mood in the development, does it
tell a story? Is the tihai appropriate to the composition? Is it
interesting? Where layakari is used, does it fit the composition, is
it done gracefully or for its own sake?
Does the performer play gats? If so, 50 bonus points! If they're good
gats, 150 bonus points!. If there are no gats, disappointment on
my part. Tukras -- again, I look for interesting, beautiful or
unusual bols, variety of tukra etc. Is the structure interesting? I
love parans. Chakkardars etc. as for tukra.
Finally, if the tabla player is a virtuoso on top of it all and lends
just the right expression to the bols, has very good sound production,
plays very clearly when playing fast (everyone should play clearly at
any speed), then you have a superb tabla solo. Note that i would
rather dispense with virtuosity than dispense with everything else,
though of course only those with all of it can be considered truly
"great".
In accompaniment
I believe Nishat Khan said that virtuosity has its place in a
performance -- about 3-5 minutes worth of place (was that in your
book, Jim?). The same is true of tabla accompaniment I believe. I've
already talked about some of my views on tabla accompaniment. In
general, again, clean, beautiful theka. Bols or compositions
appropriate for the mood and development of the rag by the main
artist. I particularly enjoy slow bols played very well during
accompaniment. These often have the greatest effect here, where some
high-speed rela might too definitively attract attention away from the
rest of the performance. Of course, in madhyalay or drut tempo the
story's different, and there's somewhat less scope for the tabla
player to choose how he/she will play. In slow tempo I think the fast
bols should be used during improvisation strictly in an ornamental
fashion (in the case of pure improvisation), unless they're part of a
composition in which they figure integrally. There's no denying
however, that at the midway point of a performance of a rag it's
sometimes nice to take a breather and watch the tabla player fly
loose. I'm sure almost everyone enjoys this.
And so on. I'm getting tired of writing this. More later perhaps.
Corvin
PS
I have the new Kishan Maharaj/Kumar duet. If you want to know what I
think of it, I can spend some time and tell you in detail. This will
require some careful listening. I would also like to hear some of his
more recent accompaniment to tell you what I think of it. His earlier
stuff (early-mid eighties) frankly seems too bland to endure. In the
same vein, whhy don't you say why you think Kumar, Balkrishnan,
Abhiman, Kaushik etc. are good. It's a two-way street.
BTW, Pavan, i believe I did mention Sureshji already.
>Heck, this net has a vast readership and such
>opinions may well influence someone out there. I think that is
>unfair.
>
>Regards
>Makarand
>maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov
--
Corvin Russell
Since Makarand mentioned Balkrishnan Iyer (unusual -- a Tamilian
"tabliyar", or is that "tabliyan"?), I might as well offer my 0.02.
I've only heard him on the Music Today rec. with MM, as far as I know.
He starts out well here but IMO soon the theka fills out far too much
and the flotsam and jetsam of stray bols begin to distract me quite a
bit.
Corvin
--
Corvin Russell
[sniiiip]
I certainly value the opinion of such great musicians as Ravi Shankar
(who is by all accounts also a fairly good tabla player). But I would
probably be more swayed if e.g. a Hiru babu, Nikhil Ghosh, or Jnan
Babu had approved of Kumar's playing.
As far as Banaras goes I think you'll find Pinky is the real hope for
continuity.
>
>
>Cheers.
>
>Pavan
>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>pa...@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu Off: 612-626-7509 Res:612-341-0708
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Corvin Russell
said before: the opinions I offer on the net are quite strictly my own
and are not to be taken as representing anyone else's (for example,
my guru's). Caveat lector!
Corvin
Right now I'm enjoying the brand new Mac Centris 650's in the Mac cluster.
Using these is actually faster than using a workstation, for my purposes at
any rate!
--
J. Kippen
tabla players mentioned by A. Pavan. I will edit drastically in the
hope that I may contribute something useful on at least one name listed.
Jim Kippen
>In article <CB5Hp...@news2.cis.umn.edu> pa...@myria.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) writes:
>>quality. And then there is Manikrao Popatkar, who has accopmanied Hariprasad,
>>Shivkumar and Kabra in the past (early and mid seventies). He also appears
>>on the popular album "Call of the Valley". I find his 'theka' to be one of
>>the most beautiful - plain, simple yet full of richness in the sound quality.
>>Also there is Kashinath Mishra who I heard with Hariprasad on two occasions - I
>>guess one of those low profile high quality Tabla players (perhaps a higher
>>quality teacher).
>>Manikrao Popatkar also passed away a few years ago. Anyone know more
>>about him ?
Whooaa! Manik Rao Popatkar was never a worthy tabla player! Sure he
had a nice sound, but that's about it. Originally from Nagpur he made
his way to Bombay to study with the great Amir Hussein Khan. When it
was convenient to do so he joined up with Shamta Prasad, who at the
time was "in" with a great many solo artists. Vilayet was one, and on
SP's recommendation VK took MRP to England in 1968 on a now famous
tour. It was during that time that VK made his much-lauded Yamam
recording. (Apparently he was to record something else that day, but
the mood took him at the start of the session, and he retuned for
Yaman!) As a result Popatkar got exposure.
Popatkar saw an opportunity to move to England in 1977. He built up
quite a decent network of contacts there, and managed to develop quite
a good business teaching and performing. He died on stage in
Manchester some years ago (anyone know the exact date? It was around
1987 or 88). He suffered a massive heart attack, and was only in his
50s.
Popatkar had a moderate technique, but a very good sound.
Unfortunately he knew very little about tabla compositions, and tended
to get stuck with students who had learned his basic package of gats
and tukras. He was a player who, whether in accompaniment or solo,
would do virtually the same thing every time. He would not, in my
opinion rank even in the second level of tabla players, let alone be
mentioned along with the greats.
On what do I base my opinion, I hear you ask? I studied with Popatkar
for over two years in London, England (where I come from). He was a
nice man, and we parted on good terms. But once I went to India and
learned from the khalifa of a major gharana, I soon realised I had
been getting nowhere!
>>It is really unfortunate that the Zakir Baaj has become so popular that people
>>even seem to forget sometimes there is someone else on the stage too. After a
>>recent concert of Briju Maharaj where Zakir 'accompanied' I heard people
>>remark - "Geez ! Zakir blasted the heck out of Birju Maharaj !" God enlighten these folks !
Just goes to show how little most people really know, specially about
Kathak. Zakir is a microbe in comparison to Birju Maharaj when it
comes to rhythm. Even Zakir knows that. And, yes, this is a strong
opinion, for all those of you who don't like us to express ourselves
strongly. But at least I have worked with Birju Maharaj, played for
his classes at the Kathak Kendra in Delhi, and accompanied many of his
students.
I think most people can tell the difference between fact and opinion.
I listen to the opinions of those I have grown to respect on this net.
That does not mean I agree with them all the time.
Phew! All this typing takes it out of you.... Must go get a coffee!
Jim Kippen
J. Kippen
>WHAT I LOOK FOR IN A TABLA PLAYER. BY CORVIN RUSSELL, ASPIRING JUST
>TO BE A GOOD TABLA STUDENT (NOT THERE YET).
>
>In tabla solo:
>
>
>Compositions, compositions, compositions. Without comopisitions there
>is no tabla solo, period. Those who play "tabla solo" as an endless
>"improvisation" of random bols and high speed terekite, dhenegene etc.
>get the axe without mercy. Sorry, it's total crap. This shortcoming
Holy Rodent's Rear-end Corvin! How can you have time to write all
that stuff? Have you a secretary?
Of course, predictably we agree on all that stuff about what makes a
good tabla player in solo and accompanimental playing.
1. Compositions of all types
2. Creative improvisation where appropriate
3. An overall sense of structure and proportion
4. Clarity of strokes, and a variety of bols
5. Virtuosity
6. CHARACTER -- something that tends only to develop with time, something
particular to the individual that helps communicate this great music
to the listener.
>In accompaniment
>
>I believe Nishat Khan said that virtuosity has its place in a
>performance -- about 3-5 minutes worth of place (was that in your
>book, Jim?). The same is true of tabla accompaniment I believe. I've
>already talked about some of my views on tabla accompaniment. In
>general, again, clean, beautiful theka. Bols or compositions
>appropriate for the mood and development of the rag by the main
>artist. I particularly enjoy slow bols played very well during
>accompaniment.
Can't remember whether it was in my book or not. But I remember
someone telling me that you could tell a good tabla player by the
quality of his (her?) theka alone. That was of course one of the
things that drew me to my Ustad, Afaq Husain (cf. the Amir Khan
classic Malkauns/Hansdhwani).
Another coffee needed now....
Jim Kippen
John Campana
Yes he did and I have it on tape if someone doubts it.
John
John Campana
>In article <1993Aug4.1...@epas.toronto.edu>, jcam...@epas.utoronto.ca
>(John Campana) says:
>>
>>
>>vocalists in India today, apart from Kishori Amonkar. She has achieved
>>a unique blend of Jaipur (learned from Mogubai) and Gajananbuwa Joshi
>>(Gwalior). Whatever moves you.
>>
>>John Campana
>>>
>
>
>vocal. Surely Maharashtra is blessed to have them for so many years. Surely
>there is dispute among the fans to decide who is the queen among them. It
>will depend on who you get to listen and who strikes the chord within you.
>I would like to cast my humble vote in favour of Veena Sahasrabuddhe as the
>reigning queen. Let me remind you who all are on ballot paper.
>
>Mogubai Kurdikar
>Malini Rajurkar
>Hirabai Badodekar
>Kishori Amonkar alias shApit yakshiNi
>Veena Sahasrabuddhe
>Padma Talwalkar
>Shruti Sadolikar
>Arati Ankalikar
>Prabha Atre
>Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande
>Who is Ashwini's mother?
Manik Bhide
>Does Lalit Rao belong here?
>Yes there are many more names. Can someone help?
>
>Pankaj
There are also the following:
Anjanibai Loleykar
Suhasini Koratkar
.... Asnare ("a young Kesarbai")
Shobha Gurtu (thumri, but also khayal)
Neela Bhagwat
Shobha Joshi
Vijaya Jadhav Gatlewar
The queen is still Kishoritai. This judgement is not based on the few
comm. releases only. Padmatai is next, but certainly tops among the
younger generation, IMCO.
John Campana
Ranjani Saigal
>5. Virtuosity
>6. CHARACTER -- something that tends only to develop with time, something
>particular to the individual that helps communicate this great music
>to the listener.
This note has prompted me to ask a question that has m puzzled for
a while. What do 5 and 6 mean in terms of music? I have been reading
Dr Shinichi Suzuki's book Nurtured with love where he stresses 6 a lot.
But when I think of many famous musicians I do not associate
Character (in the traditional sense of the word) with many of them. Of course
I do not know any of the really great ones personally and hence I am guilty of
forming my opinions based on the media reports.
So Net gurujano, could you please help me out by explaining 5 and 6
and its importance in the making of good music?
-Thanks
Ranjani Saigal
John Campana
>In article 23out2...@rave.larc.nasa.gov, maka...@gazelle.larc.nasa.gov (Makarand A. Kulkarni) writes:
>> In article <CB8u4...@news2.cis.umn.edu> pa...@myria.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) writes:
>> >In article <23oc97...@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, maka...@gazelle.larc.nasa.gov (Makarand A. Kulkarni) writes:
>
>Anish Pradhan (disciple of Pt. Nikhil Ghosh). I heard him a couple of times
>in NCPA, Bombay with Budhadev Dasgupta and Budhaditya Mukherjee. He was
>just too excellent.
>
>Regards.
>-Prasad
>khar...@sparkie.ebay.sun.com
>
he does accompany Neela Bhagwat more than competently.
John Campana
>
>
>
>
Makarand A. Kulkarni
of all your knowledge of tabla is impressive indeed. Secondly
I also agree that epithets like "amazing" and "excellent" are
extremely boring.
There are a lot of people like myself who have not trained in
any musical medium, but have for years and years heard this stuff.
Since I was in the cradle in my case. Over the years we have developed
a keen sense of the music and react to it emotionally. Performers
like me, heck knows why, but they do. That is the only authority with
which I post.
I cant tell why I like xyz tabla player or what particular note in the
alaap in Veena Sahasrabuddhe's Deshkar moves me close to tears
every time I hear it. Similarly I cannot identify the benares element
in a Lucknow rela.
If that is what people on rmic expect in a post, put me in a kill
file.
I also agree with your comment about how one must not only praise
artists, heck I dont listen very much to Jasraj, the left side (or
is it the right) of my brain does not like him. That does not give
me a right to disparage his abilities. There has been a lot of
this happening on rmic. There have been a number of posts bashing
distinguished artists. Nobody has a right to do that. If one does not
like an artist, one states reasons, I as a reader respect that and
indeed welcome it but not judgements on their abilities.
Music is not about information, one may know something about notes
and kaidas and whatnot, that does make one a musician and does
not endow one with the right to malign musicians. Should this
happen, I, as a reader am going to jump in and protest.
Again if you find my posts dull and not knowledgeable use the KIll
file. For my part, I find all the posts on rmic very interesting.
Lastly out of curiosity how many artists have you, Jim Kippen and
Shiv Naimpally accompanied, if you have any recordings solo or
otherwise, I'd would very much like to hear them.
Regards
Makarand
maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov
Makarand A. Kulkarni
bahut bahut shukriya mere jungle-bandhu. ab mujhe meri whisky
ki botal mil hi jayegi.
Sanjiva Prasad
In my humble opinion, Padmatai is perhaps the best among the female
vocalists in India today, apart from Kishori Amonkar. She has achieved
a unique blend of Jaipur (learned from Mogubai) and Gajananbuwa Joshi
(Gwalior). Whatever moves you.
John, do you want to say that with Gangubai still quite active?
---
Sanjiva Prasad, Magus E-mail: san...@ecrc.de
European Computer Industry Research Centre Off: +49 89 92 69 91 58
Arabellastrasse 17 Fax: +49 89 92 69 91 70
81925 Muenchen, Germany Res: +49 89 16 33 59
J. Kippen
>artists, heck I dont listen very much to Jasraj, the left side (or
>is it the right) of my brain does not like him. That does not give
>me a right to disparage his abilities. There has been a lot of
>this happening on rmic.
Disparage? No. Criticize intelligently and express a personal
opinion? Yes.
>There have been a number of posts bashing
>distinguished artists. Nobody has a right to do that.
The hell they don't!
>If one does not
>like an artist, one states reasons, I as a reader respect that and
>indeed welcome it but not judgements on their abilities.
I, for one, always try to state reasons. You can check back through
the archives on that one if you like. I do not want to be part of a
watered-down, piss-pot net that treats all musicians (including the
trash, the phonies, the never-made-its etc.) as revered masters. And
I certainly do not want to be part of anything that forbids freedom of
expression and opinion. I happen to value the opinions (positive and
negative) of others on the net. If I don't agree, I say so, and I
give reasons why. If there are those that like Pran Nath and Kumar
Bose, then fine -- but give me good reasons as to why I should take
them seriously....maybe (just maybe) I'll change my mind.
Jim Kippen
John Campana
>John Campana writes:
> In my humble opinion, Padmatai is perhaps the best among the female
> vocalists in India today, apart from Kishori Amonkar. She has achieved
> a unique blend of Jaipur (learned from Mogubai) and Gajananbuwa Joshi
> (Gwalior). Whatever moves you.
>
>John, do you want to say that with Gangubai still quite active?
>
biting his tongue.
No, I didn't forget Gangubai. All tha Marathi queens could still learn
a lot from her, starting with cupping their ear. She is prob. the only
true link with the past, the Ganga, my hero(ine). And BTW she sings
Bilaskhani Todi as an anonymous netter informed me. Please excuse my
negligence. I was focusing on Maharashtra even though I said India.
Thank you Sanjiv.
John
John Campana
I wonder about the jungle-bandhu. Shukriya ki koi zazurat nahin. Aap
mere liye ek Tumbler rakh dena. :-)
Dev
Yes ! but Mogubai Kurdikar is no less accomplished and can
yet evoke a response from an audience that no one else could and that at the
age of 90. Of course, I know she doesn't give any concerts any more (hasn't
since 1985 if I am not mistaken).
>comm. releases only. Padmatai is next, but certainly tops among the
>younger generation, IMCO.
>
>John Campana
>
>
-Dev
AS...@asuacad.bitnet
(Makarand A. Kulkarni) says:
>
>I also agree that epithets like "amazing" and "excellent" are
>extremely boring.
Is there any way to talk about the inexpressible?
>There are a lot of people like myself who have not trained in
>any musical medium, but have for years and years heard this stuff.
>Since I was in the cradle in my case. Over the years we have developed
>a keen sense of the music and react to it emotionally. Performers
>which I post.
There are also many others who have not listened for that many years. But
still can experience the the music within themselves. Fortunately or
unfortunately they can not do any intellectualization while listening.
Poetically it could be described as calming of the mind and opening of the
heart. Where should be the thoughts when one is listening?
>I cant tell why I like xyz tabla player or what particular note in the
>alaap in Veena Sahasrabuddhe's Deshkar moves me close to tears
>every time I hear it. Similarly I cannot identify the benares element
>in a Lucknow rela.
I am afraid, on the forum of classical music we are at loss to discuss
this. I remember once I was moved by a bunch of children singing just
the notes of 'shankarabharanam'. Now how can I argue that it was of the
same calibre as Bhimsen Joshi or Jasaraj's performance. It was not but
somehow had a similar effect on me.
The artists can bring this effect regardless of their mastery. Apart from
other factors it depends on the mood and reception of the listener. And
how to discuss this?
>I also agree with your comment about how one must not only praise
>artists, heck I dont listen very much to Jasraj, the left side (or
>is it the right) of my brain does not like him. That does not give
>me a right to disparage his abilities. There has been a lot of
>this happening on rmic. There have been a number of posts bashing
>distinguished artists. Nobody has a right to do that. If one does not
>like an artist, one states reasons, I as a reader respect that and
>indeed welcome it but not judgements on their abilities.
>Music is not about information, one may know something about notes
>and kaidas and whatnot, that does make one a musician and does
>not endow one with the right to malign musicians. Should this
>happen, I, as a reader am going to jump in and protest.
>
Here is a classic situation. Person ABC does not like artist XYZ because
of his mediocre abilities. Person DEF on the other hand can not judge
musicians on the basis of their mastery but was deeply touched by the
music and consider XYZ a great musician.
I think in this case ABC is going to post his judgement and XYZ is going
to disregard it.
IMO music has much more than intellectual aspect but because of very nature
of that aspect it is not suitable for discussions and arguments.
I dont think the person who is posting judgement is at fault. He/she is just
conveying the sincere opinion. However, it may not be wise to get biased by
that.
Pankaj
Makarand A. Kulkarni
On a related note, Asha Khadilkar a disciple of Vasanstrao Deshpande
is now touring North America. To my knowledge she is the only
accomplished disciple of Vasantrao.
I heard her render the tarana in "Katyar kaljat Ghusli", a marathi
natak. The rendition was almost as magnificent as Vasantrao's
original. Anyone remember the raga? Rajan?
Regards
Makarand
din...@charlie.usd.edu
Kesarbai Kerkar. Bhimsen Joshi once mentioned in an interview that
his style of rendering taans is influenced by Kesarbai. Now that
Kishori Amonkar has rebelled !!! :-) and Mallikarjun Mansur is no more
:-(. I think Dhondutai Kulkarni ( Amchi Marathi, Kesarbai's shishyae)
and Rajshekhar Mansur (Namm Kannada naadinavaru, Mallikarjun Mansur's son)
are the two well known Jaipur-Atrauli Gharana exponents.
- Lalith Rao definitely does not belong here. She is originally from Mysore.
Intresting fact about her is that she was doing Phd. in Chemistry at
Indian Institute of Science Bangalore, before becoming a professional musician.
Like all other Hindustani musicians from Hubli-Dharwad and rest of Karnataka
she attained name and fame in Maharashtra.
You also missed out Manik Verma. But, she is famous for Natya Sangeeth
than Classical Hindustani.
And finally my vote goes to KESARBAI KEDKAR.
- Dinesh Krishnajois.
Corvin Russell
life as a useful contributor to the net drawing to a close. After a
few more articles, I doubt I'll post anything more period.
I was just concerned that in the aftermath of the recent tabla
discussions, a distinction seemed to be drawn between "technically
good" music and music that touches one directly. I would like to
stress again that I think there is not necessarily a difference. And
in fact, in the vast majority of cases the latter implies the former.
I would hope we all approached music intuitively -- after all what's
the point if it doesn't touch us in this profound way? This is true
for tabla as well. In this vein, questions I would ask to see if
tabla is good are -- does it touch you very deeply, rather than merely
impress you? Does it linger in your mind long after the show, or
disappear as quickly as it came? Does it grab your heart or (as is
too often the case in tabla) your eyes and ears? One can very well
apporach the tabla this way, and one should. Tabla, it is said, can
express all nine rasas. Does it do this for you? Eventually, if one
asks "why" something touches us, we may have to treat of technical
considerations. But they are certainly not the avenue of approach to
the music. And let us remember that this avenue is very long. And
it's a bit like a road into the mountains. When we first start out,
the foothills are very impressive indeed. But we have no idea, no
conception what the highest mountains are like. When we reach them we
can look back and see the foothills for what they are. They are
beautiful too, but not what we thought they were. This is only to say
that one appreciates different things the more one learns. It's also
like learning a foreign language. At the beginning, one doesn't know
one's way around. If at this point someone shows as a poem in this
language, though it were doggerel we might still like it because we
hadn't found our way through the language. What appeals to us is the
sound and not the meaning. We can't really see the shape, the inner
beauty of the poem (or inner ugliness, for that matter). And if we
were to keep reading such mediocre work, perhaps our opinions would be
confirmed. But I guarantee you that even the first contact with true
greatness obliterates our esteem for the mediocre. Learning about
music is like learning a language as well. And what I would say about
tabla is not that one needs to be able to recite xyz different kinds
of compositions or know this gharana from that necessarily, but that
one should really listen to good tabla to develop an ear for it. You
will see that the beauty here totally obliterates the playing of all
the mediocrities. A picture of a rose may have its own beauty, but to
feel and see and smell the rose itself, you will know the tremendous
difference. these experiences I have had in vocal and instrumental
even though i have no training there. Unfortunately, there is very
little in the way of good tabla solo commercially available. I
recommend
Ahmedjan Thirakwa/Amir Hussain, "Rhythms of India", HMV
Swapan Chaudhuri, "Tabla Lahara", Concord records (Calcutta).
Concord has also put out a solo of Afaq Hussain's which I am quite sure
is excellent, though i haven't heard it. It is also probably
the only good live solo on the market.
Some of the solos in the accompanying cassette to Jim Gottlieb's
"Traditions of North Indian Tabla Drumming", something like that, are
very good. Listen to the Kishan Maharaj in particular. The Wajid
Hussain, I am given to understand, is not his best, in which he was
superb, but he plays excellent material and in spite of his age (70s
at the time) his hand is still quite clear. the Alla Rakha is
representative of his good years. Etc. etc. If the cassettes are
reissued along with the book, get them.
Try to get live tapes of the old masters (Habibuddin, Thirakwa, Kanthe
Maharaj, Amir Hussain, Wajid Hussain etc.). Other live solos
I recommend trying to get are Afaq Hussain, Swapan Chaudhuri,
Kishan Maharaj, Keramatullah.
One example of the "technically good but doesn't grab me" category
is Anindo's 2 cd set. As I said earlier, technically excellent, some
very good material,but no soul, no life of its own, doesn;t touch the heart
profoundly. So technique does not necessairly imply soulfulness or
"character" as Jim has put it.
I look forward to the my teacher's two new cd releases as well as the
Bhai Gaitonde and Nizamuddin from India Archive.
My last major excursus. I wanted to clear up any misunderstanding I
may have caused.
Corvin
--
VOTE YES FOR THE BURGER KING VEGGIE BURGER BY CALLING 1-800-YES-1-800.
BURGER KING WILL MAKE ITS MARKETING DECISION BASED ON HOW MANY YES CALLS
ARE RECEIVED.
John Campana
Kesarbai reigns forever, there is no question. We were discussing
living contenders however. Mogubai was no omission either. She belongs
to Kesarbai's musical realm. Manik Varma was a sad omission however.
She may be famous for Natya geets, but universally she is known and
will be remembered more for her khayals - the main darbar, as it were,
not a minor gateway.
John Campana
Corvin Russell
it is possible to talk meaningfully about music without a technical
vocabulary. For instance, my teacher is often praised for his
elegance, clarity, confidence, and poetic style (I think it says this
in a raga rec. release somewhere). This conveys quite a bit while
keeping technical mumbo-jumbo in a proverbial black box. It's
certainly better than just "superb". Similarly, of Anindo, e.g. I
would use the word flamboyant, while of Kishan Maharaj I might say
powerful, cerebral, something like that -- all without necessarily
knowing a bol of tabla.
Corvin Russell
>Corvin, you do perpetrate polysyllabic obfuscation. First
>of all your knowledge of tabla is impressive indeed. Secondly
>I also agree that epithets like "amazing" and "excellent" are
>extremely boring.
>There are a lot of people like myself who have not trained in
>any musical medium, but have for years and years heard this stuff.
>Since I was in the cradle in my case. Over the years we have developed
>a keen sense of the music and react to it emotionally. Performers
>like me, heck knows why, but they do. That is the only authority with
>which I post.
I would say this is perfectly acceptable 99% of the time. Not only
that, it's probably what everyone relies on for the most part;
whatever "knowledge" one has may just substantiate this. On the other
hand, the more one learns, the more one finds one's tastes "refining"
in the sense that fewer and fewer performers seem satisfying. One
also starts to look for different things. I assure you I don't do
mental gymnastics listening to tabla solo, though it's possible to
listen that way. I just listen to the poetry of the sound. That's the
best approach of all. If there's no poetry, I don't like it.
>I cant tell why I like xyz tabla player or what particular note in the
>alaap in Veena Sahasrabuddhe's Deshkar moves me close to tears
>every time I hear it. Similarly I cannot identify the benares element
>in a Lucknow rela.
>If that is what people on rmic expect in a post, put me in a kill
>file.
I assure you you're not going in MY kill file.
>I also agree with your comment about how one must not only praise
>artists, heck I dont listen very much to Jasraj, the left side (or
>is it the right) of my brain does not like him. That does not give
>me a right to disparage his abilities. There has been a lot of
>this happening on rmic. There have been a number of posts bashing
>distinguished artists. Nobody has a right to do that. If one does not
>like an artist, one states reasons, I as a reader respect that and
>indeed welcome it but not judgements on their abilities.
Usually one can only make informed aesthetic judgments which are also
judgments about the artists's abilities, no? Not always, but usually.
It's hard to do one without the other.
>Music is not about information, one may know something about notes
>and kaidas and whatnot, that does make one a musician and does
>not endow one with the right to malign musicians. Should this
>happen, I, as a reader am going to jump in and protest.
Nasty epithets, ad hominem attacks and purely malicious criticism
are definitely inappropriate. But honest opinions backed by sound
reasoning seems entirely appropriate here.
>
>Again if you find my posts dull and not knowledgeable use the KIll
>file.
I don't find your posts dull for one; I always enjoy hearing other
people's opinions, especially about tabla, even if they diverge from
my own. please continue! I hope I didn`t imply otherwise.
For my part, I find all the posts on rmic very interesting.
>Lastly out of curiosity how many artists have you, Jim Kippen and
>Shiv Naimpally accompanied, if you have any recordings solo or
>otherwise, I'd would very much like to hear them.
Ha, ha! I can see my (elder) gurubhai Ravi laughing now as he reads
this! The answer- 0, the big nought, zippity-doo-da! That's how I
plan to keep it for quite a while, at least till I feel that I can
play OK tabla solo. Then let's talk accompaniment (try me in ten
years, maybe fifteen, maybe twenty). I do practice with vocalists and
instrumentalists when I can (other students, not famous ones). I
suspect this is a bit of a jab on your part, however. (BTW, how does
one make the happy face so the colon centres on the hyphen? My faces
come out deformed, with drooping eyes.). It's the old response to the
critic: could you do better? Unfortunately it's not a valid response
as the critic doesn't have to be able to "do" to criticize or to
recognize "good" or "bad" music. That's why critics are so annoying!
> >Regards >Makarand
>maka...@puma.larc.nasa.gov >
Sorry if I put some burrs in your kilt!
Corvin
Those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach write about it on
the internet. (Is that your idea, Makarand?)
If you want a good laugh, listen to my guru playing a composition,
then listen to me trying to play the same thing. Sure, YOU can laugh
about it! It's only incredibly frustrating for me!
Corvin Russell
while. Try me by email if it's important.
Corvin
Corvin Russell
Jim seems to have succeeded in very directly saying what I was
avoiding saying about Manikrao ppkar. I would agree, and would point
out that he managed to substantiate his position rather effectively.
Similar criticisms could be made about many of the other tabliyas that
have been praised recently, though I have neither the time nor
inclination to do this. One should always realize that fame is not
necessarily deserved, and is certainly no reason to avoid criticizing
a performer, no matter how strong one's opinion.
Sometime in the future (say, two weeks from now), maybe I'll post a little
number about the role of bayan in tabla as this seems to be something a
lot of people enjoy.
Rajan P. Parrikar
<deleted>
>>
>>Mogubai Kurdikar
>>Malini Rajurkar
>>Hirabai Badodekar
>>Kishori Amonkar alias shApit yakshiNi
>>Veena Sahasrabuddhe
>>Padma Talwalkar
>>Shruti Sadolikar
>>Arati Ankalikar
>>Prabha Atre
>>Ashwini Bhide-Deshpande
>>Who is Ashwini's mother?
>>Does Lalit Rao belong here?
>>Yes there are many more names. Can someone help?
>>
>>Pankaj
>>>
>>>
>Yes there are many more. In fact you have forgotten the illustrious
>Kesarbai Kerkar. Bhimsen Joshi once mentioned in an interview that
>his style of rendering taans is influenced by Kesarbai. Now that
>Kishori Amonkar has rebelled !!! :-) and Mallikarjun Mansur is no more
>:-(. I think Dhondutai Kulkarni ( Amchi Marathi, Kesarbai's shishyae)
>and Rajshekhar Mansur (Namm Kannada naadinavaru, Mallikarjun Mansur's son)
>are the two well known Jaipur-Atrauli Gharana exponents.
>
>- Lalith Rao definitely does not belong here. She is originally from Mysore.
Okay fellas, it's my turn now to indulge in a bit of
regional jingoism:-). Strictly, Kesarbai, Mogubai and Kishori
don't belong here either! They come from Goa and merely
have a Green Card from the state of Maharashtra. And now add the
Mangeshkars to that list and you know what that means? The cream
of Maharashtra isn't from Maharashtra at all!:-):-):-)<----note the smilies!
Rajan [loves musicians from all over] Parrikar
==============================================
email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
parr...@spot.colorado.edu
R. P. Harshavardhan
One less known name - Mangala Ranade. She is extremely unassuming
i heard a fabulous performance in Bombay a couple of years ago.
And Rajan , We dont have to start Marathi - Konkani stuff here.
Later
Harsh
AS...@asuacad.bitnet
In article <240toj$9...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, ha...@wam.umd.edu (R. P.
How come nobody added the name of `Saraswati Rane'?
Is Manik Verma Marathi?
Pankaj
R. P. Harshavardhan
Yes, Manik Verma is Marathi/Konkani. Her maiden name was
Manik Dadarkar.
Never heard Saraswati Rane.
Later
Harsh
Shiv Naimpally
|> In article <CB5Hp...@news2.cis.umn.edu> pa...@myria.cs.umn.edu (A.Pavan) writes:
|> > I have been following the recent thread on Tabala players. There are a few
|> >that never quite got mentioned or were poorly represented in the discussion.
|> >For example, Shafaat Ahmed Khan, who I have heard in concert with Hariprasad
|> >and Amjad Ali Khan, was brilliant on both occasions. I also have several
|> >recordings of his (mosly with Shivkumar Sharma) which are also of high
|> >quality.
First of all, there are lots of good tabla players, past and present.
Corvin mentioned some of his faves, and then I mentioned some of mine.
That doesn't mean there aren't other tabla players. In fact I didn't even
mention 2 of Shankar Ghosh's disciples who are playing well, his son and
Tanmoy Bose (w/ Munawar Ali Khan), nor several of my Guruji's students
such as Nayan Ghosh (w/ Shamim Ahmed, Salamat Ali, Kartick Kumar,
Rajeev Taranath) and Aneesh Pradhan (w/ Shobha Gurtu). We all have our
personal preferences.
In typical net fashion, we seem to have lost the point of the original
post which was to look at tekha's in commercially available recordings.
At this point I must mention again Shamsuddin's acompaniment of vocal
(esp. early Hirabai recordings). Fantastic !
Shafaat is a good accompanist. I have heard him live and on many tapes.
But he has all but abandoned Delhi-baaj and tries to copy Zakir too much
for my taste.
|> And then there is Manikrao Popatkar, who has accopmanied Hariprasad,
|> >Shivkumar and Kabra in the past (early and mid seventies). He also appears
|> >on the popular album "Call of the Valley". I find his 'theka' to be one of
|> >the most beautiful - plain, simple yet full of richness in the sound quality.
Manikrao's contribution to the classic album Call of the Valley must not be
overlooked. His son is also a budding tabla player who I heard once.
|> >Also there is Kashinath Mishra who I heard with Hariprasad
Kashinath is competent but to my ears nothing exceptional. He is usually
the 3rd or 4th string tabla player. If Zakir is busy and Shafaat is busy
and Fazal is busy, then Hariprasad gets Kashinath.
|> >pillars of Purab Baaj. Birju Maharajji was in Minneapolis recently and I
|> >had a small conversation with him about Sheikh Dawood Khan Saheb.
I have heard much of Sheikh Dawood from my many people who respected him
greatly, but I have no recordings. Can you point us to commercial
recordings ? Or if you have private concerts, I would be happy to trade
with you.
|> Manikrao Popatkar also passed away a few years ago. Anyone know more
|> >about him ?
Studied with Amir Hussain Khan and later with Shamta Prasad I think.
Has a son in the U.K. who has come to North America on tours.
|> How about Kashinath Mishra, Shafaat Ahmed Khan, Inaayat Hussein Khan ?
Kashinath is Benares and IMHO not in the same league as others we
discussed. There are great artists and there are competent artists.
Shafaat is Delhi-baaj but copies Zakir too much. Plays well and has
accompanied all the biggies.
Inaayat !! Please don't mention him in the same breath as those others.
He is an up and coming tabla player and hats off to him for trying
to make it in this country. But if you listen to his CDs etc., his
deficiencies are fairly clear. He is nowere near the calibre of the
others mentioned.
|> >We have haerda enough about how Zakir and Anindo are great Tablya players and
|> >how Kumar Bose in not so good. Someone expressed suprise as to how this guy
|> >gets to perform with Panditji and Vilayat Khan and their likes ? Well,
|> >obviously they think differently from you. I have heard Kumar Bose in
|> >concert with Panditji (although just once) and he was quite good that day.
I heard Kumar Bose with Panditji several times. The first time he
was good but I have not been imppressed. How does he get to play with
the biggies, 'cause the other top grade guys like Anindo and Zakir
are booked up. But I and others on the net feel he is not quite
the level of Swapan, Zakir and Anindo.
|> How about Abdul Sattar Tari - the brilliant
|> >Tabla player who learnt from Shaukat Hussein Khan of Pakistan
Certainly Tari is superb tabla player and I love his stuff with Ghulam Ali,
but given that this is rmic, we limit the discussion to CLASSICAL music,
unless you know of classical recordings he has played on :-)
|> Further to your post, Pavan there is one tabla player that I feel
|> belongs in the tabla pantheon. Has anybody heard or heard of
|> Balkrishnan Iyer?
Sure! He has played with Jasraj and regularly plays with Kishori
Amonkar.
|> I guess he needs to appear
|> on Planet Drum or pose for a photograph with Babatunde Olatunji
|> to catch the attention of the rest of the world.
Oh come on ! Don't work yourself up into such a snit ! Many
tabla players such as Kanai Datta, Chaturlal, Shamsuddin and others
who were mentioned by Corvin and I were never on Planet Drum either ! :-)
|> Sometimes I find the opinions expressed on this net to be very strong
|> and quite unjustified.
You mean like people who get upset that their favourte tabla players
such Kashinath Mishra and Shafaat Ahmed weren't mentioned :-) ??
Read your own posting - your opionion expressed on the net is
as strong as any others, don't you think ?
|> After all who has made the nettors the judge
|> and jury of the music?
We are interested in promoting a discussion on the merits of tekha etc..
Corvin and I backed up our opinions and explained what aspects of the
tabla tekha of each player should be noted etc.. We just mentioned
some of our favourite tabla players - your mileage may vary !
Who made you the guy who says we are 'judge and jury' when all
we want to do is share our personal opinions of tabla playing ?
You seem to be judge and jury for our postings ! :-)
Get a grip ! I am always interested in hearing about tabla players
and the earlier discussion on Hiren-babu (sp?) was very interesting
to me. Similarly, I would like to know more about Sheikh Dawood, having
heard his name many times.
But my personal opinion is my personal opinion and I have the freedom
to express it on the net. Besides it would be very dull indeed if we
all thought Kashinath Mishra was the greatest tabla player ever etc..
There would be no discussion then - we would all agree on the same
things. How boring !
I should also point out that Corvin, Pavan and I have studied tabla
and Pavan and I also perform (not sure about Corvin), so that
is one reason why we have such strong opinions on tabla players.
We may rarely agree, but I thought that was the whole point of the net ?
cheers,
Shiv
Shantha Benegal
Kesarbai Kerkar, Mogubai Kurdikar, Kishori Amonkar, Shobha Gurtu, and
Lalit Rao are/were all Konkani speaking, and belonged originally to Goa,
or Mangalore, repatriated in Bombay. Gangubai Hangal and her daughter are
bi-lingual (Kannada-Marathi) from the Dharwad-Hubli area. But my all
means let Maharashtra claim them - they certainly nurtured these vocal
queens by providing admiring audiences.
A few more names:
Sumati Mutatkar
Vijaya Jadhav
Manik Verma
Saraswati Rane
Lata & Asha (also from Goa)
What follows is just a signature and not an addition to the list.
Shantha Benegal
email: sha...@u.washington.edu
Phone: (206) 543-1186
Durgesh Rao -aka ddr
[Stuff deleted]
: >Yes there are many more names. Can someone help?
: >Pankaj
:
: There are also the following:
:
: Anjanibai Loleykar
: Suhasini Koratkar
: .... Asnare ("a young Kesarbai")
I guess that would be Manjari Asnare of Miraj.
I heard her at a music festival organized to
honour Pt. Mallikarjun Mansur, in 1991.
She is great!
-- durgesh
John Campana
Saraswati Rane was also a daughter of Abdul Karim Khan. She can be
heard in jugalbandi with Hirabai on an LP by EMI: Chandrakauns and
Basant Bahar (?), and also in the movie "Bhumika" in which she sang
(playback) the famous "mondar baju" in Shuddh Kalyan. She was also
very active on the Marathi stage.
John Campana
Shiv Naimpally
|> In article <1993Aug5.1...@epas.toronto.edu> kip...@epas.utoronto.ca (J. Kippen) writes:
|> >5. Virtuosity
|> >6. CHARACTER -- something that tends only to develop with time, something
|> >particular to the individual that helps communicate this great music
|> >to the listener.
|>
|> This note has prompted me to ask a question that has m puzzled for
|> a while. What do 5 and 6 mean in terms of music?
Virtuosity should be fairly obvious in a musical context, the ability
to play very fast but with great clarity. Generally when I see a tabla
player play something at a speed where I would have thought it impossible
to play, I consider that virtuosity.
Character is perhaps more tenuous to describe, though it too is clearly
discernible. Certain specific traits (characteristics) of a playing
style, the knowledge of when to display their virtuosity and more
importantly when NOT TO display it etc.. Jim says it well when he says
it is something that the tabla player communicates to the listener
through his playing. 'Feeling', 'soul', 'substance' are conveyed -
even when playing simple tekha. Again, as Jim points out, character comes
with time and maturity - the younger musicians tend to concentrate on
virtuosity, and as they mature the character aspect tends to come in.
This is true of almost any musician, not just tabla players. In fact both
5 and 6 can be applied to all musicians.
I had previously created a big brouhaha with my comments about a
prominent sitarist who I felt displayed much virtuosity but often
(though not always) I found his playing lacking somewhat in character.
Shiv Naimpally
Shiv Naimpally
|>
|> There are a lot of people like myself who have not trained in
|> any musical medium, but have for years and years heard this stuff.
|> Since I was in the cradle in my case. Over the years we have developed
|> a keen sense of the music and react to it emotionally. Performers
|> like me, heck knows why, but they do. That is the only authority with
|> which I post.
Corvin, Pavan, Jim, myself and others post from a different perspective,
as people who have learnt tabla. I do not say your opinion as a listener
is any less valid than our opinion, but having learned tabla, there are
certain opinions we may have (eg. Jim mentioning Kumar Bose could not
execute a Lucknow rela) which you may not have. We bring a different
perspective when posting our humble opinions - you as a listener may
not agree with some or all of them.
|> I cannot identify the benares element
|> in a Lucknow rela.
|> If that is what people on rmic expect in a post, put me in a kill
|> file.
Not neccessary - we are ALL entitled to our own opinion and to the freedom
to post that opinion without people flaming us to kingdom come.
|> There have been a number of posts bashing
|> distinguished artists. Nobody has a right to do that. If one does not
|> like an artist, one states reasons, I as a reader respect that and
|> indeed welcome it but not judgements on their abilities.
It all depends on how you look at it isn't it ? In fact there has not
been 'bashing of distinguished artists'. There has been a critique of
some artists (some well-known), but reasons have always been given.
The Toronto gharana and others agree that while Jasrajji is an artist
of considerable ability, often his recent concerts do not display his considerable abilities adequately because he tends to 'play to the
gallery' too much. Nor is this entirely the artists fault - audiences
want 'exciting'stuff like sawal-jawab, sat-sangat, etc. and so the artists
oblige. Unfortunately this leaves good listeners frustrated - they know
Jasrajji is capable of systematic raga development, and when he abandons
it to do sawal-jawab etc., their opinion of him naturally suffers.
Certainly younger artists have to try and give the audience what they
want in order to succeed but established artists like Jasrajji can
afford not to indulge the audience too much.
Jitendra Abhisheki in a recent interview had similar thoughts on the
subject. He likened music to plate of food and he said nowadays
performers abandon the main course and just give pickles and sweets
instead. I will try to type the article in when I get time.
All I am saying is that it is not just netters that have noted
the deterioration of performances into gimmickery - older artists
like JA also see it.
All criticisms have been with reasons, eg. Kumar Bose's inability to
play a rela was cited by Jim.
|> I, as a reader am going to jump in and protest.
Please don't ! This is a discussion - give us your opinion as we have
ours and let us discuss the finer points - we all benefit.
|> Lastly out of curiosity how many artists have you, Jim Kippen and
|> Shiv Naimpally accompanied, if you have any recordings solo or
|> otherwise, I'd would very much like to hear them.
Being a full time software engineer, tabla is a hobby for me.
Had I taken it up full-time I could have perhaps had more recordings
to point you at. I have accompanied Lakshmi Shankar, Shujat Khan (Vilayat's
son), several of Jasraj's students ( Shewta Jhaveri,
Hemang Metha, Trupti Mukherjee, Padmaja Fennani, and Mukesh Desai),
Sheila Divekar, Ashok Ranade, Nirmala Gogte, Asha Khadilkar,
Chandrakant Kapileshwari, Jyotsnabai Bhole, and others.
I have most of my programs taped and I'd be happy to send you
or anyone in netland copies of my concerts. Mukesh Desai is selling
some of our live concert tapes so you can purchase through him.
More later ...
John Campana
>Let us not forget Shrimatibai and Shalinibai Narvekar.
Who is Shrimatibai? How about Laxmibai Kerkar while we're at it?
John
J. Kippen
>In article <1993Aug5.1...@epas.toronto.edu> kip...@epas.utoronto.ca (J. Kippen) writes:
>>5. Virtuosity
>>6. CHARACTER -- something that tends only to develop with time, something
>>particular to the individual that helps communicate this great music
>>to the listener.
>
>
> This note has prompted me to ask a question that has m puzzled for
>Dr Shinichi Suzuki's book Nurtured with love where he stresses 6 a lot.
>
> But when I think of many famous musicians I do not associate
>Character (in the traditional sense of the word) with many of them. Of course
>I do not know any of the really great ones personally and hence I am guilty of
>forming my opinions based on the media reports.
>
> So Net gurujano, could you please help me out by explaining 5 and 6
>and its importance in the making of good music?
>
Not really, and that's why I included a brief explanation of what I
meant by 6, above. Virtuosity is in many ways a comparative term, but
in essence it means the ability to execute technically at a very high
level. How high? That's comparative. As far as character is
concerned, perhaps it depends just as much on the quality of the
listener in discerning those qualities that are presented
idiosyncratically by an artiste. Anyway, character to me is audible
-- and I get a very strong sense of it with many musicians (not all of
whom have all or even some of the other qualities I described). I
suppose that is what makes it Art (no, not you Art), and not Science.
However, you do raise an interesting question, and I am sure that once
Corvin gets his philosophical teeth out of this morning's jar he'll
bite into this subject with massive, rat-splitting gusto!
Jim Kippen
Shiv Naimpally
|> Yes there are many more. In fact you have forgotten the illustrious
|> Kesarbai Kerkar. Bhimsen Joshi once mentioned in an interview that
|> his style of rendering taans is influenced by Kesarbai. Now that
|> Kishori Amonkar has rebelled !!! :-) and Mallikarjun Mansur is no more
|> :-(. I think Dhondutai Kulkarni ( Amchi Marathi, Kesarbai's shishyae)
My dad heard Donduthai in Bombay some years back and was very disappointed.
My dad had heard Kesarbai several times so I don't know if Donduthai
just had an off-day but he didn't like her concert at all.
|> and Rajshekhar Mansur (Namm Kannada naadinavaru, Mallikarjun Mansur's son)
|> are the two well known Jaipur-Atrauli Gharana exponents.
|>
|> - Lalith Rao definitely does not belong here. She is originally from Mysore.
She is married to a Naimpally so perhaps I should mention that she is
from the Saraswat community that was originally in Karnataka and who
speak Konkani. After independence many migrated to the big cities
(bombay and Bangalore especially) seeking employment.
There are many Saraswats in music:
Taranath Rao and his students Ravi & Shashi Bellare, Omkar Gullwadi,
Sadanand Nayampalli, etc..
Suman Kalyanpur, Krishna Kalle, VG Karnad, Devendra Murdeshwar,
Nityanand Haldipur, SCR Bhatt, KG Ginde, Dinkar Kaykine,
Chandrakant, Subhash and Bharat Kamath, Arvind Thatte, Padmaja Fennani, etc.
I've probably forgotten a few, but thats a sample off the top of my head.
In fact most of the top vocalists have come from that area encompassing
Southern Maharashtra, Goa, and Northern Karnataka (esp. Hubli/Dharwad),
so it is misleading to say they are 'Marathi vocal queens'. I am
quite surprised Rajan Parrikar has not raised a hue and cry over this :-)
|> Intresting fact about her is that she was doing Phd. in Chemistry at
|> Indian Institute of Science Bangalore, before becoming a professional musician.
I don't know about PhD in Chem but she did do her PhD in Engineering from
the University of New Brunswick in Fredricton ,Canada.
cheers,
SHIV NAIMPALLY
Shiv Naimpally
|> In article <1993Aug10....@bmerh85.bnr.ca> sh...@bmerh298.bnr.ca (Shiv Naimpally) writes:
|> >Let us not forget Shrimatibai and Shalinibai Narvekar.
|>
|> Who is Shrimatibai?
Shrimatibai Narevekar was Shalinibai's aunt I think. I don't
remember the exact relationship but it was fairly close.
I don't think Shrimatibai performed very much though.
Shiv
Rajan Marathe
>
>Taranath Rao and his students Ravi & Shashi Bellare, Omkar Gullwadi,
>Sadanand Nayampalli, etc..
>Suman Kalyanpur, Krishna Kalle, VG Karnad, Devendra Murdeshwar,
>Nityanand Haldipur, SCR Bhatt, KG Ginde, Dinkar Kaykine,
>Chandrakant, Subhash and Bharat Kamath, Arvind Thatte, Padmaja Fennani, etc.
>I've probably forgotten a few, but thats a sample off the top of my head.
>
You are completely missing the point Shiv. the discussion is about how one
culture can provide the right environment to develop musical talent; NOT about
what square mile area the singers come from; or what cast they belong to.
If one must split hair, some of the names you mentioned are not Saraswat; and
a large number of Saraswats on your list speak Marathi at home. But that
really does not matter. What matters is the fact that a certain subculture
has a very large number of `rasika's and provides an atmosphere where a budding
genius can blossom into a musical queen or king. In this newsgroup, we should
limit ourselves to discussing the influence of that culture on Indian classical
music; and vice versa.
So lets get back to MUSIC.INDIAN.classical, shall we??
Rajan Marathe'
--
There is no such thing as a contradiction.
If you encounter one; check your premises.
One of them must be wrong.
Ayn Rand
Rajan Marathe
>
>Taranath Rao and his students Ravi & Shashi Bellare, Omkar Gullwadi,
>Sadanand Nayampalli, etc..
>Suman Kalyanpur, Krishna Kalle, VG Karnad, Devendra Murdeshwar,
>Nityanand Haldipur, SCR Bhatt, KG Ginde, Dinkar Kaykine,
>Chandrakant, Subhash and Bharat Kamath, Arvind Thatte, Padmaja Fennani, etc.
>I've probably forgotten a few, but thats a sample off the top of my head.
>