Ravi Shankar Bullshit
Schwarzwilly
nearly 40 year love affair with ICM with no less passion as when I first
encountered this alluring mistress. That moment was with the hearing of Ravi
Shankar's rAga Jog, accompanied by Chatur Lal. The next tryst was with Ali
Akbar's Pilu and Sindhi Bhairavi (w. spoken intro by Yehudi Menuhin). I soon
discovered the magnificent beauty of D.V. Paluskar, Subbulakshmi, Palghat Mani
Iyer, Bismillah Khan, Amir Khan, Bade Ghulam Ali, Thumri, Bhajan, Ghazal,
etc.etc.. I was hooked for life; Deeply involved with a lover as
intellectually challenging as she was emotionally fulfilling, and I will
certainly never leave this paramour.
Call it karma, right-place-at-the-right-time, luck of the draw, or whatever you
like; It was Pandit Ravi Shankar who bequesthed a whole generqation this
inestimable pleasure. Of course he's a showman - his association with
Harrison, Coltrane, Menuhin et al established him as a popstar, but beside his
perwsonal ambition, I vfeel he deserves credit on a number of points;
He was the first to attempt, for better or worse, to combine Indian and Western
musical elements, and that in several genres (jazz, classical, pop). And
though none of these experiments are entirely satisfying from either aesthetic
viewpoint, one can't fault him for trying. And yet, along with his penchant for
innovation, his respect for the tradition led him to record a history of indian
music (an early World Pacific 3LP set, which formed my original background info
on my love affair). He made several innovations in performance both recorded
and live. These include sawal-jawab - borrowed from Karnatic, kharaj alAp -
borrowed from bin technique, in addition to perfecting the gradually-
accelerating gat layakar, thereby perfectly adapting Hindusthani praxis to
Western linear aesthetic perception (read 'short attention span'!).
Raviji, with his good looks, charismatic presence, his 'cute accent' asking his
audiences not to smoke or point their bare feet at him, was the perfect
ambassador for ICM in the West. And despite his presumed ambition and vanity,
he saw fit to promote NOT just himself, but an entire galleon of shishyas and
colleagues; Jitendra Abhisheki, Shivkumar, Hariprasad, Brijbushan Kabra,
Sharad Kumar, Anantlal, Satya Dev Pawar, Ashish Khan, Ramani, L. Subramaniam,
Palghat Raghu, Kamalesh Maitra, Gopal Krishan Veenkar, Sultan Khan. He
magnanimously featured his tabla accompanists - Chatur Lal, Kanai Dutta, and of
course Ustad Allarakha in a manner which to my knowledge was also
unprecedented.
In the wake of every fad that sails the treacherous waters of pop music, there
are fans who are inexorably driven to dive deeper into the tradition. I, like
thousands of others, am just such a person, and it was Ravi Shankar who pushed
me in.
Willy
Warren Senders
>his
>audiences not to smoke or point their bare feet at him, was the perfect
>ambassador for ICM in the West.
....and of course his famous line, "Thank you! I'm sure if you enjoyed
the tuning so much you will like the music even more!"
WS
Daniel Fuchs
I believe the quote is not _100%_ accurate, but it's a classic...
For those who don't know it, it may be necessary to mention that it was
a reaction to frenetic applause after he tuned his sitar. Was it at the
concert for Bangladesh?
Daniel
Sachin
As a Sitar player, he remains mediocre when compared with Vilayat Khan
or Nikhil Banerjee.
- Sachin
Daniel Fuchs <dfu...@stud.uni-goettingen.de> wrote in message news:<3F9E9855...@stud.uni-goettingen.de>...
jcs
pathetic.
While I don't claim to have the credentials to judge these artists, I
wonder what all you RMIC fanboys do for a living.
Has 'Vilayat Khan or Nikhil Banerjee' weighed in on the subject?
In sports we have championships and points, etc ...
I find the music of Shankar, Banerjee, Kishori Amonkar, Bismallah Khan
et all to be unfathomable and I wouldn't judge. From my tradition, I
wouldn't judge Art Tatum, Bud Powell, John Coltrane, Louis Armstrong,
either. I find the people doing the judging don't play, or if they do,
don't play very well.
The Shankar's Nand snippet on SAWF will be remembered long after the
news group trolls have gone back to their day jobs.
Bossk (R)
> Has 'Vilayat Khan or Nikhil Banerjee' weighed
> in on the subject?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8ehqt7%241rbn%40drn.newsguy.com
Sachin
Pandit Jasraj, Ustad Amjad Ali) funny and pathetic? Could you please
tell me which instrument this pompous asshole (read Rajan Parrikar)
plays, and how well?
- Sachin
jcs <"jg"@opencity. com> wrote in message news:<bnp41v$rgc$1...@reader2.panix.com>...
Susan Black
language on the ICM forum, a form of music refined over so many years.
Opinions however strong can be expressed in a dignified way.
Truly "the good that men do is oft forgotten".
Pundit ji is definitely responsible for bringing the sitar to the
West. However this is not to say, that had he not brought sitar to
the west, no body else would have done the same. This is only
speculation but deserves some thought. Punditji marketed Sitar with a
point of view that Sitar and Ravi Shankar were synonymous in the West.
This is still true, if you ask any westerner the question, Do you
know what Sitar is? They will answer, yes I know Ravi Shankar. Is
that good?
sac...@rediffmail.com (Sachin) wrote in message news:<c6fcb878.0310...@posting.google.com>...
Sachin
in a dignified way.".
"Punditji marketed Sitar with a point of view that Sitar and Ravi
Shankar were synonymous in the West". True. When he was busy marketing
Sitar, Vilayat Khan was busy taking the instrument to new heights.
"This is still true, if you ask any westerner the question, Do you
know what Sitar is? They will answer, yes I know Ravi Shankar. Is
that good?"
No, thats bad. Its quite unfortunate, in fact.
-- Sachin
black_eye...@yahoo.com (Susan Black) wrote in message news:<e4005ac4.03112...@posting.google.com>...
Warren Senders
>Shankar were synonymous in the West". True. When he was busy marketing
>Sitar, Vilayat Khan was busy taking the instrument to new heights.
>
>"This is still true, if you ask any westerner the question, Do you
>know what Sitar is? They will answer, yes I know Ravi Shankar. Is
>that good?"
>No, thats bad. Its quite unfortunate, in fact.
Many years ago (many, many, many) I made some of my
daily bread by doing location recordings for performers. One
day I had a recording gig for a rock'n'roll band which was playing
at a rather sleazy bar in a part of town I didn't normally frequent.
I got there early and set up my equipment.
The band played their first set, and I monitored their performance
through my headphones. At the interval, I went to the bar and ordered
my drink (tonic water, no ice, slice of lemon...a serious drinker, clearly!).
While I was sipping this hellbrew, a large, pockmarked individual
clad in biker black leather walked over to me.
"So," he asked, "whaddya think of the music?"
"Well," I replied, "it's not really my kind of thing, but the band seems
to be very tight, and they're clearly doing a good job."
Biker: "Not your kind of thing, huh? What IS 'your kind of thing'?"
Any intelligent person would have known to shut up at that point,
but not Warren (well, an intelligent person wouldn't have been in
the bar at all, so there you go).
Warren: "Indian classical music."
(Parental advisory: strong language ahead)
Biker: "Indian classical music! What the f__k is Indian classical music?"
W (searching for a common reference, and landing on the point of this
entire story): "You know, like Ravi Shankar."
The biker looked at me for a long time. Then he summoned up all his
vast reserves of dismissive derision, and delivered the ultimate blow:
"Huh! Ravi Shankar! Ravi Shankar's a PUSSY!"
Then he walked away.
(I'd like to be able to say that he continued, "now Vilayat
Khan, on the other hand..." but it didn't happen.)
WS
Josh
I have met Pandit-Ji many times since I was a kid alongside my
Ustad-Ji. I never witnessed any bullshit of any kind in any of his
performances, UNTIL the last time that I saw him in Atlanta, GA. My
Ustad was invited to play tanpura for this performance which featured
his daughter and himself in a kind of "OK-Here is my legacy-Love her
like you love me " kinda' tour. I'm sure you all know what I'm
talking about. ANyway, I showed up with my Ustad-Ji for sound check
and noticed that there was this very strange security situation. A
very mean British woman was barking orders and yelling at people to
stay away from Ravi-ji. His wife nervously paced everywhere and acted
VERY superior to anyone she came into contact with. Very disgusting
and I was quite shocked. I was not allowed to come back stage to help
my Ustad-Ji with this or that and Shankar's gooney's ran around like
he and Anoushka were Rock stars. I finally called my Ustad-Ji's wife
to come down thinking that she would be allowed access to the back so
she could help my Ustad. This very nasty British woman locked her in
the back stage bathroom when she went back looking for him!!!! It only
got worse-During the concert-These goons would sneak up behind people
with cameras-whether they were taking or not- and would snatch the
cameras from behind...It created a very unsettling
environment...Anyway, the show went on as usual-Pndit-Ji played a nice
Gawoti-Anoushka showed that she had learned all the tans Daddy had
taught her-The saddest part happened after the show when Pandit-Ji and
Anoushka came out to sign autographs. If you wanted one, you had to
get into a line and purchase a 45$ book, or any number of 35$ Cds of
Daddy or Anoushka.....No exceptions-Even though we payed 65 $ for
tickets...There were people who had not had enough or had tried to buy
too late who couldn't get into the show who waited forever to get a
glimpse at Pandit-Ji and maybe an autograph...Nope-Big ugly British
Gestapo lady made sure that that wouldn't happen. There were people
who had driven hundreds of miles to be treated this way. I was in
shock...My Ustad-Ji said it was the saddest day for Ravi Shankar and
Indian Classical Music, and that Allauddin Khan-Sahib would have never
accepted such behavior. My notice was that Pandit-Ji was thriving on
the chaos that seemed to be propegated by this British woman and his
wife Sukanya.....This coupled with his obvious artsy/fartsy flair
really gave me a bad taste concerning him. I've sat with all the best
at one time or another under casual to serious circumstance-No one
ever presented themselves in this manner..It dis appointed me
gravely........Anyway-Just my input.......Josh
Susan Black
developed a formula in his presentation. Thus if you were to listen
carefully to bihag, nand, yaman etc you will notice that the same
patterns are employed to all three. The exact same format is used for
all three. This formulated approach was never known to ICM or seldom
used by artists of the past. Is that good?
The other aspect is that Pundit ji brought the tabla players to lime
light. He gave ample chances to the accompanist to show there fire.
Tabla players at one point use to sit at the back, not even next to
the main artist. Symbolic as the move to the front was; Pundit ji did
bring the tabla players next to the artist; to the rightful place as
an artist. Is that good or bad?
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote in message news:<20031202100543...@mb-m10.aol.com>...
naniwadekar
"Josh" <sit...@excite.com> wrote -
>
> A very mean British woman was barking orders and yelling
> at people to stay away from Ravi-ji.
>
> he and Anoushka were Rock stars. I finally called my Ustad-Ji's wife
> to come down thinking that she would be allowed access to the
> back so
> she could help my Ustad. This very nasty British woman locked her in
> the back stage bathroom when she went back looking for him!!!!
>
>
That British woman is only half British, from her father's side.
In fact, her father himself is half-American. Now this 75%
American woman might have been trying to prevent a 100%
American jerk like Josh from trying to act Ravi Shankar's
chamcha. It is difficult to form any judgement except that you
have a phobia against the Brits and that your posts are utter
gibberish. That last bit, we already knew.
When was your guru-maiyaa released from the bathroom?
Did you mount a rescue operation, Josh? Or did some
airport-coolie air-lift her to safety?
- dn
Josh
Also-Here is a link to one of my favorite Ravi Shankar photos....
Just priceless!!!!!
http://www.sitarsetc.com/images/Ravigallery/FICOO.jpg
Rageshwari
grandmother abusing you?? Haha-She must be a complete ass to speak to
you that way, funny to see though. She must not know who you are-Oh
wait...100% jerk.....Haha-She obviously has never met you...Yes-I
quite agree with you-Ravi can only be associated with a circus
atmosphere. His contribution is only to bring the instrument into the
minds of the Americans-Look at your self-You are one of the only
American sitarist that I respect...REALLY -no joke, but do you think
that you would have even looked at the sitar had he not become
popular?? Cheers Josh-We miss you- love Raj
Sachin
I do not agree with "developed a formula in his presentation" thing.
If you notice same patterns across bihag, nand, yaman, they represent
the limitation in his highly rhythem based "baaj".
"Bringing the tabla players next to the artist" is okay. Hasnt it
started "too much of tabla", "i will play short alaps followed by
three gats" and cheap "sawal jawab" kind of gimmicks? Who has
contributed such things to ICM?
- Sachin
black_eye...@yahoo.com (Susan Black) wrote in message news:<e4005ac4.03120...@posting.google.com>...
a c
> One of Punditji's contribution to Indian Classical Music is that he
> developed a formula in his presentation. Thus if you were to listen
> carefully to bihag, nand, yaman etc you will notice that the same
> patterns are employed to all three. The exact same format is used for
> all three. This formulated approach was never known to ICM or seldom
> used by artists of the past. Is that good?
Which performances are you talking about? There are a number of Yaman,
Bihag and Nand recordings by Raviji floating around the world. It is
true that RS has often abbreviated his performances to include an
aochar, dheema gat and drut gat. At times, he has played only madhya
laya and drut after aochar. This, he does in order to accommodate the
short attention-spans of the large number of non-rasikas who throng to
his concerts for entertainment value. Nothing wrong with that as long
as he continues to regale more samajhdar audiences with the real
stuff. Unfortunately, RS has probably not performed in a mehfil
setting in decades. Among more recent sitarists, another outstanding
example of formulaic playing is Shahid Parvez Khan - a very good
musician nonetheless. Please refer to my earlier post that discussed
his gat construction in Jhap/Matta taals.
> The other aspect is that Pundit ji brought the tabla players to lime
> light. He gave ample chances to the accompanist to show there fire.
> Tabla players at one point use to sit at the back, not even next to
> the main artist. Symbolic as the move to the front was; Pundit ji did
> bring the tabla players next to the artist; to the rightful place as
> an artist. Is that good or bad?
Tabla sangat has evolved over time, but it is not fair to say that the
older tabla masters like Thirakhwa and Kramatulla Khan just sat there
and played second fiddle to the melody player. They did make brief
displays of their wizardry in their "jawaab" (reply) to the statement
of the melody player, but it was all designed to let the melody rule
the music. This had its own beauty. Many of us would still give
anything just to have a sweet theka like that of Thirakhwa and Karamat
Khan while playing. Ravi Shankar, being one of the early Indian
artists to visit the West, was quick to realize that percussion makes
Indian music more entertaining, so he chose to package his music with
a greater dose of tabla. He was fortunate to have people like
Chaturlal, Kanai Dutta and Allarakha touring with him who made the
best of that opportunity. In that sense, Raviji's contribution to the
elevation of the tabla player to their rightful position is great.
That said, there are tabla players who use their potential for mass
appeal to harrass melody players on stage. Some exemplars of such
behavior are Mr. K Bose and Ms. A Pal.
Regards,
Arnab
Josh
acting idiot who wished that he could play an Indian instrument, but
can't. So he posts his thoughts and brings out big words with the help
of some book that he takes them from. Quite pathetic actually-Do you
remember Anand?? Exactly the same-quite possibly related-Anyway-thank
you for your input. You are right to some degree about the actual act
of popularizing the instrument and my coming to it. I still think
that all the benefits that Ravi-ji has bestowed to us "Westerners"-
his follow through in propegation ruins everything he represents.
Just my opinion.-Josh
Sitariya
> One of Punditji's contribution to Indian Classical Music is that he
> developed a formula in his presentation. Thus if you were to listen
> carefully to bihag, nand, yaman etc you will notice that the same
> patterns are employed to all three. The exact same format is used for
> all three. This formulated approach was never known to ICM or seldom
> used by artists of the past. Is that good?
There is not such standard formula for presentation in ICM. Every
great artist has his/her own way of presenting a raga, just like RS
has. The most beautiful part of ICM live concert of a great artist, is
its unpredictableness. Also every raga has to be presented differently
based on mood of the raga. Presenting different ragas in similar
format can hardly be called as an accomplishment.
>
> The other aspect is that Pundit ji brought the tabla players to lime
> light. He gave ample chances to the accompanist to show there fire.
> Tabla players at one point use to sit at the back, not even next to
> the main artist. Symbolic as the move to the front was; Pundit ji did
> bring the tabla players next to the artist; to the rightful place as
> an artist. Is that good or bad?
Bringing the tabla player to limelight is good as long as the concert
does not turn into tabla and main instrument jugalbandi and tabla does
not override the melody. Unfortunately nowadays almost every zakir
concert is a jugalbandi concert.
Ashok
>
>Dont you find Rajan Parrikars disrespecting of Ustad Vilayat Khan (and
>Pandit Jasraj, Ustad Amjad Ali) funny and pathetic? Could you please
>tell me which instrument this pompous asshole (read Rajan Parrikar)
>plays, and how well?
>- Sachin
Why don't you find out for yourself? Here's one way. Get the
1996 CD titled "Legacy" of Asha Bhosle and Ali Akbar Khan
(label AMMP) and study it.
Ashok
Sachin
Rajan a chance to play in Legacy. Perhaps, he was one of the easily
available harmonium players for that recording. Can u dare to compare
this guy with Appasaheb Jalgaonkar, or Dr. Arwind Thatte?
-- Sachin
adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) wrote in message news:<bqv80h$2701gt$1...@ID-74854.news.uni-berlin.de>...
naniwadekar
"Cheers Josh-We miss you" ? What a liar you are. You and Josh
are using the same computer terminal to post from. Ha Ha.
Baby 'Raj' , is your name a faked identity by Baby Josh ?
What a pathetic fool you are.
Keep enjoying Josh's sitar's noise.
Have fun.
- dn