Question about Rasoolanbai
Shan2468
I was listening to a recording of thumris by Rasloonbai (from Varanasi ?)
released by HMV back in the seventies. I had a couple of question that perhaps
someone might be able to help me with.
(1) Her accompanists included a flute and what sounded like a clarinet. I have
never heard this before in a thumri recording. Was using this type of musical
accompaniment common at some point in thumri singing or was this particular to
Rasoolanbai. I heard another recording in which she sang what was billed as a
thumri in a fast keherva using manjira and dholak.
(2) This second question reflects my total ignorance about the Benares Gharana,
so I maybe totally off track. Can someone explain to me how this gharana has
come to be so closely associated with thumri singing ? Other than the now
popular Rajan-Sajan duo, one associates this gharana with singers like
Siddheshwari Devi, Savita Devi, Rasaloonbai
Thanks in advance,
Sandip.
fird...@my-deja.com
shan...@aol.com (Shan2468) wrote:
> Dear Group Members,
>
> I was listening to a recording of thumris by Rasloonbai (from
Varanasi ?)
> released by HMV back in the seventies. I had a couple of question
that perhaps
> someone might be able to help me with.
I'll answer only to the first part of your question
and leave the rest to the ICM historians on the group.
yes, the accompanying instrument is clarinet (
clarionet ) indeed . It was a favourite instrument for accompaniment
with many vocalists in the 40's & 50's ; esp. those frequenting
Lahore/Jallandhar soirees and music festivals. I remember Master Bihari
Lal used to accompany , BGAK and Barkat ALi Khan Sahib , on the
clarinet at Takia Mirasian in Lahore. I even have a private recording .
Bihari Lal settled in Jallandhar after partition.
In addition to Rasoolan Bai , recordings of Siddheshwari Devi and
Begum Akhtar exist with clarinet accompaniment.
Naushad.
i
> (1) Her accompanists included a flute and what sounded like a
clarinet. I have
> never heard this before in a thumri recording. Was using this type of
musical
> accompaniment common at some point in thumri singing or was this
particular to
> Rasoolanbai. I heard another recording in which she sang what was
billed as a
> thumri in a fast keherva using manjira and dholak.
>
> (2) This second question reflects my total ignorance about the
Benares Gharana,
> so I maybe totally off track. Can someone explain to me how this
gharana has
> come to be so closely associated with thumri singing ? Other than the
now
> popular Rajan-Sajan duo, one associates this gharana with singers like
> Siddheshwari Devi, Savita Devi, Rasaloonbai
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Sandip.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
dines...@my-deja.com
>
> I was listening to a recording of thumris by Rasloonbai (from Varanasi
?)
> released by HMV back in the seventies. I had a couple of question
that perhaps
> someone might be able to help me with.
Gharana,
> so I maybe totally off track. Can someone explain to me how this
gharana has
> come to be so closely associated with thumri singing ? Other than the
now
> popular Rajan-Sajan duo, one associates this gharana with singers like
> Siddheshwari Devi, Savita Devi, Rasaloonbai
and N.Rajam. She was trained by Mahaveer Prasad Mishra in banArasi-ang
thumri.
- Dinesh.
james
limited knowledge. The most important person of recent times was
Mauzuddin Khan who recorded quite a few 78rpm discs. I believe he was
greatly influenced by the great propagator of thumri Bhaiyya Ganpat
Rao. I do not know the relationship between Mauzuddin and the pre-
Rasoolanbai thumri singers , the most famous being Husnabai. After
among the most famous came Rasoolanbai , Siddheshwaribai and
Girjadevi. The tabla and sarengi players may not want to admit it but
they also came from the kotahs of Dalmandi- the Mishras of
Kabirchoura , Gopal Mishra, Anokelal and others, as well as Kante
Maharaj. I suppose thumri developed the extent it did by these and
others but maybe was always there, just as the female singers in
Rajasthan sang maands, in Punjab multani kafis, Maharashtra, lavanis
etc. A marvelous radio program was produced years ago by AIR Benares
by K.K. Rastogi an enthusiastic authority on Benares singers. He has
collected all the 400 odd 78rpm discs of Benares singers, many
photographs and knows the history of the kotahs. I wish he would write
a book. I would also suggest that N.Rajam’s having taken talim from
Mahadev Prasad Mishra doesn’t qualify her . Do others find her
personality and music too cold to present thumris well?
--
james stevenson
Ashok
>
>a book. I would also suggest that N.Rajam’s having taken talim from
>Mahadev Prasad Mishra doesn’t qualify her . Do others find her
>personality and music too cold to present thumris well?
>
>--
>james stevenson
What are hot and cold personalities and hot and cold musics?
I hope the image of the kotahs of Dalmandi have nothing to
do with it!
Ashok
james
you listen to Faiyyez Khan you will know what warm music is. I would
describe Shruti Sadolakar and Ratnakar Pai as "cold" singers,
eventhough I love their music. Maybe it is better to say emotional
versus intellectual. Instrumentalists must have a difficult time
playing wordless thumris! I don't know what your image is of the
kotahs. My memories, although not in Benares are vivid,eventhough the
music with one exception forgettable (film songs of course).
Ashok
>
>In article <8u4af...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>> In article <8u3pmd$8g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, james_s...@my-deja.com
>says...
>> >
>> >a book. I would also suggest that N.Rajam’s having taken talim
>from
>> >Mahadev Prasad Mishra doesn’t qualify her . Do others find her
>> >personality and music too cold to present thumris well?
>> >
>> >--
>> >james stevenson
>>
>> What are hot and cold personalities and hot and cold musics?
>> I hope the image of the kotahs of Dalmandi have nothing to
>> do with it!
>>
>> Ashok
>> What is so difficult about cold (or warm?) personalities or music.
They are anaytically useless terms in music--and in psychology.
If
>you listen to Faiyyez Khan you will know what warm music is. I would
>describe Shruti Sadolakar and Ratnakar Pai as "cold" singers,
>eventhough I love their music. Maybe it is better to say emotional
>versus intellectual.
Slightly better, if only because they are less loaded. Slightly
because they'll do only as starters.
Instrumentalists must have a difficult time
>playing wordless thumris! I don't know what your image is of the
>kotahs. My memories, although not in Benares are vivid,eventhough the
>music with one exception forgettable (film songs of course).
>>
>
>--
>james stevenson
Looks like another guy who has a Western name and is clueless
when it comes to Indian film music.
Ashok
james
> >--
> >james stevenson
>
> Looks like another guy who has a Western name and is clueless
> when it comes to Indian film music.
>
> Ashok
pseudonym. Would it be more acceptable to you? Your comment doesn't
seem relevant and is a false assumption.
dines...@my-deja.com
james <james_s...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8u4af...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> > In article <8u3pmd$8g0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
james_s...@my-deja.com
> says...
> > >
> > >a book. I would also suggest that N.Rajam’s having taken talim
> from
> > >Mahadev Prasad Mishra doesn’t qualify her . Do others find her
> > >personality and music too cold to present thumris well?
> > >
> > >--
> > >james stevenson
> >
> > What are hot and cold personalities and hot and cold musics?
> > I hope the image of the kotahs of Dalmandi have nothing to
> > do with it!
> >
> > Ashok
> > What is so difficult about cold (or warm?) personalities or music.
If
> you listen to Faiyyez Khan you will know what warm music is. I would
> describe Shruti Sadolakar and Ratnakar Pai as "cold" singers,
> eventhough I love their music. Maybe it is better to say emotional
> versus intellectual. Instrumentalists must have a difficult time
> playing wordless thumris!
Can you elaborate please on "Instrumentalists must have a difficult time
playing wordless thumris!" ?
- Dinesh.
Ashok
>
>In article <8u74v...@news2.newsguy.com>,
>> >--
>> >james stevenson
>>
>> Looks like another guy who has a Western name and is clueless
>> when it comes to Indian film music.
>>
>> Ashok
>>What gave you that impression? Maybe I should be using a Indian
>pseudonym. Would it be more acceptable to you? Your comment doesn't
>seem relevant and is a false assumption.
>>
>
>--
>james stevenson
My remark was just a commentary on the tendency I have
noticed among the self-styled Western afficianados of
Indian classical music: their inability to deal with
Indian film music on its own terms, combined with their
readiness to wear their dislike as a badge of honor.
I didn't know what to make of the second half of your
last sentence:
>...............................eventhough the
>music with one exception forgettable (film songs of course).
It is a gratuitouly offered observation, which had nothing
to do with the point you were making. The juxtaposition
of phrases "music ... forgettable" and "of course" has no
other explanation.
Ashok
james
> My remark was just a commentary on the tendency I have
> noticed among the self-styled Western afficianados of
> Indian classical music: their inability to deal with
> Indian film music on its own terms, combined with their
> readiness to wear their dislike as a badge of honor.
>
> I didn't know what to make of the second half of your
> last sentence:
>
> >music with one exception forgettable (film songs of course).
>
> to do with the point you were making. The juxtaposition
> of phrases "music ... forgettable" and "of course" has no
> other explanation.
>
> Ashok
involved in classical music to be clueless about film music and I am
sometimes baffled by the lack of appreciation of any great song,
afterall the aesthetic is the same. I doubt there is any classical
musician in India not in awe of Lata, Kishore, and even Alka Yagnik,
not to mention the composers(and I don't mean all and everything). I
do remember Yunus Husain Khan telling me that at one of his concerts in
Holland he was requested by a NRI in the audience to sing a Mohammed
Rafi song. He did not oblige. He was though a great fan of Kishore
Kumar. I am sorry for the poor English which gave you the wrong
impression. I meant that the singing was not good.
james
>
> Can you elaborate please on "Instrumentalists must have a difficult
time
> playing wordless thumris!" ?
>
> - Dinesh. The importance of the lyrics is obvious in thumri and unless they are
also sung as does vilayet khan and others, it must be difficult! Bundu
Khan could sing and play (sarengi) together. I'm sorry I cannot
elaborate more. I am not a musicologist.