Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof request.
Ganesan
3/27/97
Hi Friends,
I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
"Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
Thanks,
N. Ganesan
nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
***********************************************************************
This morning, I translated a classic haiku.
A child is crying,
asking, "Get it down for me!"
- the full moon hanging.
Issa, (1763-1823), Edo period poet of Japan
azhutha kuzhanthai vizhainthathu - "vaanil
ezhuthingaL thaa, thanakku" enRu.
kuRal by N. Ganesan
nilaac cORu uuTTal, ambuliyai viLaiyaaDa azhaiththal -
nam marabukaL allavO?!
Keywords:
Gopala Ganesh
Hi Arasu!
Superb! Just loved it and laughed my guts out!!
Please post other such gems that you might have picked up from the
wonderful heartland of TN!!!
In my humble opinion, let us have MUCH, MUCH MORE of such things and less
of you know what in SCT!
- ganesh
V. Chandramouli
Let alone the spoof, I wonder how many people can sing the national anthem
correctly. Upon reading this post I tried singing the anthem and I must
admit wasn't smooth sailing the first time. I remembered the melody but the
words were rusty. After a few agonizing, embarrassing moments, I mananged to
get the whole thing out. I felt rather low I must admit. But more objectively
speaking, without any sentimental feeling, it is like any other thing you learn.
If you don't use it for a while, things do get rusty. I have never had
the occassion to sing or hear the anthem in the last 5 years. But this reasoning
appears specious to me for some reason :-)
This song is based on the Shankarabharnam scale which should come as no surprise.
Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
Anyway, since these questions are not related to Indian classical music, perhaps
an email to vcha...@eecs.umich.edu would be better. Maybe I can look it up
in the library but it is easier to ask :-)
thanks,
--Chandramouli
lindires
In rec.music.indian.classical Arasu Chellaiah <ar...@pharmdec.wustl.edu> wrote:
> In article <5hbdn5$8...@cisu2.jsc.nasa.gov>, nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
> (Ganesan) wrote:
{snipped}
The tamizh spoof was really hilarious. Could some one kindly post the
original to help me sing the tamil spoof in tune and enjoy a little
more.
thanks,
Vishnupriya
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
: was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
: chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
About this song being composed to honour King George
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
I
found this very interesting passage from the book "Khaki Shorts and
Saffron Flags-A Critique of the Hindu Right" by Tapan Basu, Pradip Datta,
Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar and Sambuddha Sen. [Published by Orient
Longman, 1993]
Page 38-39:
"There are a few Sanskrit mantras with which all sevaks are meant to
begin the day, begin their meals,and which they chant before they sleep.
The day is closed with a singing of the entire hymn of Bande Mataram by
Bankim Chandra, its Bengali parts included. The entirety is given special
emphasis since the hymn supposedly encompasses the authentic shape of
undivided pre-partition Bharatmata: an abbreviation of the hymn,
consequently, implies a symbolic surrender of her symbolic integrity. As
the saffron flag rather than the tricolor is regarded as the true
national flag, this hymn is similarly affirmed to be the true national
hymn. RABINDRANATH'S JANA GANA MANA IS EXPUNGED, BY EXPOUNDING THE FALSE
~~~~~~~
MYTH THAT THE POET HAD COMPOSED IT NOT TO SALUTE THE COUNTRY BUT TO GREET
GEORGE V."
Sumit Sarkar (one of the authors) is a reputed historian. All the authors
are professional academics.
Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
"Sanchayita".
Let me draw your attention to the fourth stanza of the poem. [I have
retrieved and edited it from the Web]
Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi MAATAA.
~~~~~~~~~~
Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to you, who relieve the pain of people.
Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
In Sanchayita (the collection of some Tagore poems), the annotation to
the poem mentions the following:[my translation from Bengali]
"This poem was published in 1318 Magh issue of Tatwabodhini Patrika and
it was sung in the Magh Festival that year. It was also sung in the
Congress Session that year."
{Note: 1318 is Bengal era. The present year is 1403 Bengal era.}
Note that there is no reference to it being sung BY RABINDRANATH to
welcome King George.
Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
could not have influenced the decision.
: Anyway, since these questions are not related to Indian classical music, perhaps
: an email to vcha...@eecs.umich.edu would be better. Maybe I can look it up
: in the library but it is easier to ask :-)
: thanks,
: --Chandramouli
The complete song is posted below. The first stanza is our National Anthem.
"jana-gaNa-mana-adhinAyaka jaya he
bhArata-bhAgya-vidhAtA
panjAba-sindhu-gujarATa-marAThA-
drAviDa-utkala-bangA
vindhya-himAcala-yamunA-gangA
ucchala-jaladhi-tarangA
tava s'ubha nAme jAge
tava s'ubha ASisa mAge
gAhe tava jaya-gAthA
jana-gaNa-mangala-dAyaka jaya he
bhArata-bhAgya-vidhAtA
jaya he, jaya he, jaya he,
jaya jaya jaya jaya he"
"Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
Dispenser of India's destiny.
Thy name rouses the hearts of the Punjab, Sind, Gujarat and Maratha,
Of the Dravid and Orissa and Bengal.
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
mingles in the music of the Jamuna and Ganges
and is chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.
They pray for thy blessings and sing thy praise.
The saving of all people waits in thy hand,
Thou dispenser of India's destiny,
Victory, victory, victory to thee."
Patana-abhyoodaya-bandhoora-panthaa, yuga-yuga dhaabita yaatri.
Hey Chira-Saarathi, taba ratha-chakrey mookharita patha dina-raatri.
Daaroona Biplaba maajhey Taba sankkha-dhwani baajey,
Sankata-dookka-traataa.
Jana-gana-patha-parichaayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
The road is difficult, with rise and fall; the travellers travel
this road for ages. Oh Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your
chariot keep this way alive day and night. In the midst of all
chaos, your conch shell sounds aloud, as savior of pains and
perils of the journey. Glory to you, who leads people on the way.
Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi maataa.
Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
to you, who relieve the pain of people.
Raatri prabhaatila, oodila rabichchhabi poorba-oodya-giri-bhaaley -
Gahey bihangama, poonya samirana naba-jibana-rasa-dhaaley.
Taba karoonaaroona-raagey Nidrita Bharata jagey
Taba charaney nata maathaa.
Jaya jaya jaya hey, jaya Rajeshwara Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaataa.
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
The night is over, the sun is rising at the eastern mountains,
the birds are singing; the gentle breeze is bringing in the nectar
of new life. Your kind rays awaken the sleeping India; they all
bow their heads to your feet. Glory to you, again and again, Oh
King of the kings!
Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: : Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
: : was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
: : chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
: About this song being composed to honour King George
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
Nalinaksha: I knew that this would be coming.
Afterall, all the bad that is India, is because of
RSS.
Why do you not simply accept the plain fact. That
the great poet could have erred. Or was he an infallible
person.
The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
For instance the newspapers write:
The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
Some interesting things to be noted:
a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
of king.
b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
nationalism.
c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
in their opinion it promoted sedition.
d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
Indian nationalism for a change.
: I
: found this very interesting passage from the book "Khaki Shorts and
: Saffron Flags-A Critique of the Hindu Right" by Tapan Basu, Pradip Datta,
: Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar and Sambuddha Sen. [Published by Orient
: Longman, 1993]
: Page 38-39:
: "There are a few Sanskrit mantras with which all sevaks are meant to
: begin the day, begin their meals,and which they chant before they sleep.
: The day is closed with a singing of the entire hymn of Bande Mataram by
: Bankim Chandra, its Bengali parts included. The entirety is given special
: emphasis since the hymn supposedly encompasses the authentic shape of
: undivided pre-partition Bharatmata: an abbreviation of the hymn,
: consequently, implies a symbolic surrender of her symbolic integrity. As
: the saffron flag rather than the tricolor is regarded as the true
: national flag, this hymn is similarly affirmed to be the true national
: hymn. RABINDRANATH'S JANA GANA MANA IS EXPUNGED, BY EXPOUNDING THE FALSE
Well, this "very interesting passage" shows nothing. Do not try to
divert the debate. This "very interesting passage" in no way shows
that RSS have spread a lie that RNT's song was for the king. The
useless historians have said nothing to substantiate their claim.
Of course, they are reputed, since they and you are in harmony.
: MYTH THAT THE POET HAD COMPOSED IT NOT TO SALUTE THE COUNTRY BUT TO GREET
: GEORGE V."
: Sumit Sarkar (one of the authors) is a reputed historian. All the authors
: are professional academics.
: Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
: 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
: find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
: "Sanchayita".
: Let me draw your attention to the fourth stanza of the poem. [I have
: retrieved and edited it from the Web]
: Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
: Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
: Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi MAATAA.
: ~~~~~~~~~~
: Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
: Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
: It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
: even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
: the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
: fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: to you, who relieve the pain of people.
: Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
: "Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
: the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
That is the only good point in your argument. But still it does
not go beyond a certain point. The poet was trying
to say that the king was LIKE a loving mother. In fact
you too have used the word "like".
Still further, India is a loving mother. She is called Bharat.
The poet repeatedly alludes to the vidahaat of Bharat's bhagya.
Naturally, he would not me mentioning India as the bhagya
vidhaataa of Bharat mataa. RNT was much better that.
: In Sanchayita (the collection of some Tagore poems), the annotation to
: the poem mentions the following:[my translation from Bengali]
: "This poem was published in 1318 Magh issue of Tatwabodhini Patrika and
: it was sung in the Magh Festival that year. It was also sung in the
: Congress Session that year."
: {Note: 1318 is Bengal era. The present year is 1403 Bengal era.}
Note: That the Congress of these years was not a champion of Indian
freedom. Most of the folks were simply chamchaas of Brits. And
history does tell us that the primary job of Congress was to ensure
a smooth sailing for the Brits.
: Note that there is no reference to it being sung BY RABINDRANATH to
: welcome King George.
This does not prove anything. Poets have the habit of saying
simple things in complicated ways, and complicated things in
simple ways.
: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
: could not have influenced the decision.
This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Gopala Ganesh
Hi!
I took the liberty of SLIGHTLY modifying line # 2 and # 11 to remove the
negative portrayal of India. Also, changed the psikkuthu in line # 3 to
"pasikku", to make it flow (in my opinion, of course), a little smoother!
Other than that, it can be sung, just like JGM! - ganesh
spoof sung to the tune of Jana-Gana-Mana!
>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>
>> panjaap pasikku pOdunga parOttaa
>>
>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>
>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>
>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>
>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>
>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>
>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>
>> janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhiya
>>
>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>
>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>
>>
>> NESCOFFEE!!
>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
Arasu Chellaiah
> 3/27/97
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
> "Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
> Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
> of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
>
> In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
> a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
> in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
> If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> N. Ganesan
> nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
>
>
I am posting whatever I remember on this. The person who sang this to me
mentioned this originated from Annamalai University.
" JanangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattiNi
PaarungaL ithuthaan Indhia
Panjaab pasikkuthu pOdunga prOttA
thaaLicha thakkALi kurumA
Venthiya kuzhambum vengAya vadayum
OOthappam irunthAl koduyyA
thayir vadai masAl vaday dhOsai
hostel boori mEl Asai
ayyayyO idliyA vENdAm
JanangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattiNi
PArungaL ithuthAn Indhia
COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
Suda suda suda COffee!!!"
" NESCOFFEE "
(Jey hind)
Arnab Gupta
Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>..[deleted]..
>The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
>gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
>For instance the newspapers write:
>
>The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
>"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
>specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
>
>"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
>song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
>
>"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
>27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
>resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
>(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
>
>Some interesting things to be noted:
>
>a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
> of king.
>
He actually did. About eight to ten years ago there appeared an
article in the `sharodiyo' number of the Bengali magazine `Desh'
on the same issue. It quoted letters from Tagore in which he
contradicted these accusations. I have asked someone back in
Calcutta to dig up that article and send me a photocopy. Rest
assure, I will type it down for you once I get it.
>b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
> a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
> not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
> of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
> nationalism.
>
`Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
>c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
> of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
> in their opinion it promoted sedition.
>
What do you exactly mean by `encourage'? What proofs have you got that
they wanted (if that is what you have meant) this song to be popularized ?
>d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
> that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
> they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
> Indian nationalism for a change.
Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
..[deleted]..
>: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
>: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
>: could not have influenced the decision.
>
>This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
>a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
So what's your `proof' that the song was `for the Brits' ?
Please remember...
1. You have quoted a pro-British newspaper to prove your point and
NOTHING else. Then again, it is a `report' only, and hence based
on what the reporter percieved the song as. It DOES NOT quote
anyone (including the organizers or the poet or even the British)
to give even an hint that the song was actually sung in praise of
the emperor. In his correspondences, that I mentioned earlier,
Rabindranath himself did not support the interpretation that it
was sung for the purpose that you have mentioned.
2. Interpretations are not good at proving a point in a point in a debate
on an objective issue like this. If you interpret `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'
as the emperor please remember that many others would like to see
the same `Vidhata' as God.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
brao
In article <5hgs56$mip$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya <bha...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
...
> It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
> even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
> the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
> fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> to you, who relieve the pain of people.
>
>Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
>"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
>the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
By itself, the above is not conclusive evidence that
Bharata-Bhagya-vidhaata is not identified with King George.
In Indian literary tradition, it is not uncommon for a nominally male
figure to be given "maternal" attributes, especially if the "male"
figure is God or someone God-like, such as a king-emperor. There are
several Sanskrit verses with male God-figures (e.g., Rama, Krishna, or
Narasimha) in which they are explicitly equated with a mother.
e.g., "twamEva maata pitaa twamEva
twamEva vidyaa draviNam twamEva ..."
(referring to Lord Krishna)
"maataa narasimhascha pitaa narasimha..." by Adi Sankara
(referring to Lord Narasimha).
Also, note that the emotion of "vaatsalyam", i.e., the feeling of a
cow towards its calf is very commonly attributed in language to male
(or traditionally male) adults like fathers and gurus towards their
young wards.
Tagore being alive or not at the time of selection of Janaganamana is
not relevant, as the reverence and goodwill towards him would have
transcended any need for him to exert personal influence in the
decision.
On reading the whole poem, it sounds like it is basically directed
towards an abstract "vidhaata" of the country's destiny, but the term
"Rajeswara" in the final stanza is a strong hint that it does refer to
a King. But this is not conclusive either, since "Rajeswara" is (I
believe) another name for Lord Siva, i.e., synonymous with the divine.
But basically the controversy has no more than academic significance.
My personal views.
Bapa Rao
N. Tiwari
Arnab Gupta (GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
: >Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: >..[deleted]..
: >The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
: >gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
: >For instance the newspapers write:
: >
: >The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
: >"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
: >specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
: >
: >"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
: >song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
: >
: >"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
: >27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
: >resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
: >(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
: >
: >Some interesting things to be noted:
: >
: >a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
: > of king.
: >
: He actually did. About eight to ten years ago there appeared an
: article in the `sharodiyo' number of the Bengali magazine `Desh'
: on the same issue. It quoted letters from Tagore in which he
: contradicted these accusations. I have asked someone back in
: Calcutta to dig up that article and send me a photocopy. Rest
: assure, I will type it down for you once I get it.
That will be a good idea.
: >b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
: > a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
: > not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
: > of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
: > nationalism.
: >
: `Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
: in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
: could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
: contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
: and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
It is one think to interpret. It is another thing
to sing a song in front of an emperor. Surely, I
would not sing a song, in the colonial times, in
front of George 5, during the time of his coronation
that will be a bhajan. And surely, if I sang a bhajan
then the newspapers would not report that I sang a
ballad.
: >c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
: > of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
: > in their opinion it promoted sedition.
: >
: What do you exactly mean by `encourage'? What proofs have you got that
: they wanted (if that is what you have meant) this song to be popularized ?
: >d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
: > that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
: > they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
: > Indian nationalism for a change.
: Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
: on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
Yes. It is from a book: The Story of a Song. I do not remember
the author.
: ..[deleted]..
: >: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
: >: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
: >: could not have influenced the decision.
: >
: >This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
: >a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
: So what's your `proof' that the song was `for the Brits' ?
Well, Arnab: I have cited my proof. Actual newspaper reports.
Nalinaksha'r proof is no proof at all. His argument is: "Look
India adopted it, after the death of RNT". That is not a proof.
: Please remember...
: 1. You have quoted a pro-British newspaper to prove your point and
: NOTHING else. Then again, it is a `report' only, and hence based
: on what the reporter percieved the song as. It DOES NOT quote
: anyone (including the organizers or the poet or even the British)
: to give even an hint that the song was actually sung in praise of
: the emperor. In his correspondences, that I mentioned earlier,
: Rabindranath himself did not support the interpretation that it
: was sung for the purpose that you have mentioned.
I quoted 3 newspapers. All the newspapers say the same thing.
It could be very well possible that the poet, after redefining
himself (as a nationalist) tried to reinterpretation his kriti.
That will not be surprising, since humans evolve as they grow.
But that does not mean that we deny the earlier phases of our
lives, if they turn out to be inconsitent with our present
phase.
: 2. Interpretations are not good at proving a point in a point in a debate
: on an objective issue like this. If you interpret `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'
: as the emperor please remember that many others would like to see
: the same `Vidhata' as God.
Vidhaataa could be used as God. But in courts, "malik", "huzoor", "vidhaataa",
"swami" has countlessly been used to praise the raja/rani too. If you interpret
a song, interpret it in the context in it was sung. Any interpretation,
that neglects the context, with a view to feel good, will in my opinion
be a dishonest exercise.
RNT, like a lot of Indians of those times, was only responding
to what was percieved as OK. It was only in the later times,
that he rediscovered his Indian self. It is his rediscovery
that inspires me.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Rajaraman Jayakrishnan
Gopala Ganesh wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I took the liberty of SLIGHTLY modifying line # 2 and # 11 to remove the
> negative portrayal of India. Also, changed the psikkuthu in line # 3 to
> "pasikku", to make it flow (in my opinion, of course), a little smoother!
> Other than that, it can be sung, just like JGM! - ganesh
>
> spoof sung to the tune of Jana-Gana-Mana!
>
> >>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
> >>
> >> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
.....
Looks great now! Thanks.
Jayakrishnan
Kathiravan
In article <5hgs56$mip$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) writes:
|> V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
|> : Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
|> : was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
|> : chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
|>
|> About this song being composed to honour King George
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
|>
So that the saffron goons can have a field day with
Vante mataram. VHP released this as one of their agenda
to develop India.
[All the laborious effort deleted]
India is a garland of different flowers sadly
handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
falls short of them when one finds the draconian
laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
been used against Indians with opposing political
views.
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
On Mar 28, 1997 16:37:58 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
request.>, 'bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya)' wrote:
>Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
>kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
>
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
by not-so-kind soul)
>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>
>>
>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>
>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>
>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>
>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>
>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>
>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>
>>
>>
>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>
>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>
>>
>> NESCOFFEE!!
>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
Is this not our India of today
To remove hunger make parota
With fried tomato korma
Fenugreek sambhar and onion vadai
Give me oothappam if you have
Curd vadai, masal vadai, dosai
And puri are wanted now
But no iddli please
Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
Is this not our India of today
Coffee coffee coffee
Hot hot hot hot coffee
Gopala Ganesh
vi...@vossnet.co.uk(V.C.Vijayaraghavan) wrote:
>
>Here is the tamil spoof ( version of Gopala Ganesh) and it's translation (
>by not-so-kind soul)
>
just a small correction noted below! - ganesh
>
>>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>>
>>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>>
>>> panjaap pasikku pOdunga parOttaa
>>>
>>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>>
>>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>>
>>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>>
>>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>>
>>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>>
>>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>>
>>> janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>>
>>> idhuvalla indru nam indhiya
>>>
>>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>>
>>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>>
>>>
>>> NESCOFFEE!!
>>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
>
>
>
>Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
>
>Is this not our India of today
^^^^^^^^^^^
I meant "this is not", NOT "Is this not"! i.e. my modification of the
original posted by Arasu was intended to render it positive, not negative!
>
>To remove hunger make parota
>
>With fried tomato korma
>
>Fenugreek sambhar and onion vadai
>
>Give me oothappam if you have
>
>Curd vadai, masal vadai, dosai
>
>And puri are wanted now
>
>But no iddli please
>
>Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
>
>Is this not our India of today
^^^^^^^^^^^^
same as above!
M.Ranganathan
In article <5hhm8h$m...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
> India is a garland of different flowers sadly
>handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
>What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
>Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
>ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
>falls short of them when one finds the draconian
>laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
>been used against Indians with opposing political
>views.
How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
did Nehru kill?
I say Mr. Kathirist, have you ever considered returning to
your homeland and cleaning up the mess. Running for office
perhaps? Oh Canada is far too nice eh? A socialist country
besides. It is a matter of principle of course.....
"What about you ?" you ask -- well, well, I have never pretended
to care have I?
Ranga.
Arnab Gupta
Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
..[deleted]..
>: >b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
>: > a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
>: > not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
>: > of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
>: > nationalism.
>: >
>
>: `Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
>: in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
>: could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
>: contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
>: and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
>
>It is one think to interpret. It is another thing
>to sing a song in front of an emperor. Surely, I
>would not sing a song, in the colonial times, in
>front of George 5, during the time of his coronation
>that will be a bhajan. And surely, if I sang a bhajan
>then the newspapers would not report that I sang a
>ballad.
>
You have to remember two things here...
1. The occasion was the meeting of the Indian National Congress. So
to sing something related to India is not quite out of context
here. The song, I repeat once again, has been interpreted by the
poet himself and many others to be one in praise of the God and
not the emperor.
2. There is nothing in the song that can be objectionable to the British.
As you have noted (in your source) the song can be interpreted as
one referring to the Emperor. So it is not surprising that the British
found nothing wrong with it. But this by itself does not prove that
the song refers to the Emperor as `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'.
..[deleted]..
>: >d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
>: > that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
>: > they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
>: > Indian nationalism for a change.
>
>: Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
>: on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
>
>Yes. It is from a book: The Story of a Song. I do not remember
>the author.
>
Once again, the incedent you have mentioned does not necessarily *prove* that
the song is in praise of the emperor. It's the interpretation of the British.
In any case, I will appreciate if you kindly quote the book (if you have it
with you presently).
..[deleted]..
There can be no question of rediscovery in this case. He was actually
pretty much sure about what he was doing. What follows is a quote
from `The Myriad-Minded Man' (Rabindranath's biography by Andrew
Robinson and Krishna Dutta) on this incedent:
"...The tangle around Tagore in Bengal was perfectly illustrated by an
incedent in December. `Jana Gana Mana' is today India's national
anthem, selected in the 1950s and composed by Tagore in late 1911.
Officially it was written for the meeting of the Indian National
Congress in Calcutta in December 1911, where it was sung for the
first time. Most probably it was really composed for the occasion
of George V's coronation at the Durbar held in Delhi in the same
month - but not sung at the Durbar because it was insufficiently
`loyal'. There the head of the Pathuriaghat Tagores held an umbrella
over King George; perhaps he and the Bengalis on the national
reception committee had hoped that Rabindranath could manage a song
in the same spirit as the umbrella. If so they were dissapointed.
The following year in London one of Tagore's Bengali friends explained
how the song came about to W. B. Yeats, who told Ezra Pound, who
then passed the story on to his father in the USA, calling it a
joke `worthy of Voltaire':
The national committee came to Mr. Tagore and asked him to
write something for the [Delhi Durbar]. And as you know Mr.
Tagore is very obliging. And all that afternoon he tried to
write a poem, and he could not. And that evening the poet
as usual retired to his meditation. And in the morning he
descended with a sheet of paper. He said `Here is the poem
I have written. It is addressed to the deity. But you may
give it to the national committee. Perhaps it will content
them.'
....."
Note the following points...
1. The song was written in 1911. Five years before this Rabindranath
participated actively in the Banga-Bhanga andolon (the protest
against the division of Bengal). The period is generally referred
to as the Nationalistic period of Tagore. Most of his songs in the
praise of the country were written during this period. So, there
the accusation that he was `loyal' to the Empire at that time or
`the poet, after redefining himself (as a nationalist) tried to
reinterpretation his kriti' *does not* stand.
2. The poet himself interpreted the song (when he wrote it) as one
`addressed to the diety' not the Emperor.
3. The British *did not* find the song very praiseworthy.
So, accusing Rabindranath in this issue on the basis of newspaper reports
or British interpretations of the song is rather unfortunate, IMO.
Specially so, when he himself made it clear that the song was written
in the praise of God right after he composed it.
Thanks,
Arnab.
Kathiravan
In article <5hk4r0$4...@catfish.cs.umd.edu>, ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) writes:
|> In article <5hhm8h$m...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> > India is a garland of different flowers sadly
|> >handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
|> >What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
|> >Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
|> >ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
|>
|>
|> Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
|>
Never more than you. Considering your open public
boasting the Higher
you Go;the Iyengar you become:-)
|> >falls short of them when one finds the draconian
|> >laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
|> >been used against Indians with opposing political
|> >views.
|>
|>
|> How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
|> did Nehru kill?
Pretend to sleep. .
Count the numbers lost during partition. Read up
history. Nehru and his aamaanj saamees would never
agree on federalism and power sharing. Muslims stood
behind Jinnah. And whom do you think has to bear the
blame for the mayhem. Even if you split 0.5 each the
number will be more than million. Makes Hitler a
pigmie. Add more.... from below
Emergency killings, killing 3000+ Sikhs in Delhi and 10,000
odd in Punjab during false encounters, killings in
nagaland, mizoram, assam, wars with neighbours,
killing 8000 innocents in Elam all are the legacy
of `Mama of India'
|> I say Mr. Kathirist, have you ever considered returning to
|> your homeland and cleaning up the mess. Running for office
|> perhaps? Oh Canada is far too nice eh? A socialist country
|> besides. It is a matter of principle of course.....
|>
|> "What about you ?" you ask -- well, well, I have never pretended
|> to care have I?
|>
You ask and answer your own questions.
|> Ranga.
|>
|>
V. Chandramouli
Well, I seemed to have inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest. I was shocked
to see so many posts on this topic. This thread has nothing to do with ICM and should be stopped at once. It is fast degenrating into a RSS versus non-RSS and patriotic and non-patriotic people, wars. I had clearly said in my post with that innocuous question (or so I thought) that since the answer had nothing to do with ICM, to respond by email. But I guess this was a chance for people to show to the rest of the world, as if they cared, their opinios/hatred.
I will go to the library and form my own opinions on this matter. To all the
other nettors, my sincere apologies for engendering this deluge.
--Chandramouli
ps: This thread might be of interest to the people involved. However, it should
be discussed in a more appropriate newsgroup, IMO.
P.Siddharth
Kathiravan wrote:
>
> India is a garland of different flowers sadly
> handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
> What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
> Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
> ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
> laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
> been used against Indians with opposing political
> views.
As per the Dravidian oracle, power should have been handed over to the
D.K.( Dravida Kazgam). Even though Corruption is a commonplace in India,
D.K. would have included the right of politicians to pillage and loot, a
fundamental right under the constitution and this would have avoided all
the problems.Tamil should have been made the national language and with
ethnic cleansing should have started 49 years ago.Universities and
schools should have been abolished and degrees should have been handed
down to based on caste, as is done now in T.N.Only idiots should have
been allowed to run for election. These opportunities were missed and
because of this Kathiravan is not the Prime Minister and has to work for
a living.What a tragedy.
Anonymous IU Student
I dont know what the Tamil 'spoof' of the national
anthem means, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't
like the national anthem to be 'spoofed'. Perhaps some
things could be left untouched by irreverence - the
flag, the anthem among other things.
Just an old-fashioned thought.
Samir Dhume
<sdh...@indiana.edu>
Nice haiku, though.
Ganesan wrote:
>
> 3/27/97
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
> "Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
> Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
> of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
>
> In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
> a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
> in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
> If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> N. Ganesan
> nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
>
M.Ranganathan
In article <5hkjvd$e...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>|>
>|> Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
>|>
> Never more than you. Considering your open public
>boasting the Higher
>you Go;the Iyengar you become:-)
No No. Dont misquote me. Thats "The Iyer you go the Iyengar you become".
>|> How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
>|> did Nehru kill?
>
> Pretend to sleep. .
>
> Count the numbers lost during partition. Read up
People are responsible for their own savagery. Nobody could
prevent them from killing each other. Not Gandhi nor Nehru.
Whatever gave you the idea that Nehru was responsible?
>history. Nehru and his aamaanj saamees would never
>agree on federalism and power sharing. Muslims stood
>behind Jinnah. And whom do you think has to bear the
>blame for the mayhem. Even if you split 0.5 each the
>number will be more than million. Makes Hitler a
>pigmie. Add more.... from below
Thats funny. So the people involved had nothing to do with it eh. It
was all the fault of Nehru? Look here, Nehru never issued an order to
kill. He was stupid in his centralized industrial policy and Fabian
socialism but he never was a killer.
>
>
> Emergency killings, killing 3000+ Sikhs in Delhi and 10,000
>odd in Punjab during false encounters, killings in
>nagaland, mizoram, assam, wars with neighbours,
>killing 8000 innocents in Elam all are the legacy
>of `Mama of India'
Err... we were discussing the "Chacha of India". Mama Gandhi does not
enter into the discussion. Incidentally, the combination of the two
comes nowhere close to Hitler. Hitler, old chap, issued direct orders
which resulted in the death of atleast 6,000,000 people. You may have a
tough time matching that in all of human history. Stalin perhpaps comes
close. You know Stalin - the fellow after whom the glorious Mayor of
Chennai is named.
You have a knack for being bombastic. You would win in Tamizh Nadoo hands
down. They gobble this kind of thing up. Do consider running.
Ranga.
N. Tiwari
Arnab Gupta (GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: The national committee came to Mr. Tagore and asked him to
: Note the following points...
Arnab_ji:
1. Your own citation (from RNT's biography) says that perhaps the
song WAS written for the Brits in the first place.
2. Tagore, according to your own quote, says approx to the effect
"take it away, i wrote it for the deity, but they could use
for other purposes". Note that he said this the morning after
he had composed the song. After the national committe asked
him to write something for Delhi Durbar. Perhaps, that tells
us that RNT was confused and his kriti was in part devoted
to praise of George 5. This duplicity of mind, and thought
is very human. Especially, when one is not sure as to what
is one doing, or stand for. Perhaps, his acceptance to wriet
something in the first place (as per Congress's instruction)
and his categorizing the song as a tribute to deity the
morning after, does indeed exposes his confusion and his
lack of steadfastedness in that period.
3. Perhaps, the Brits did not find it praiseworthy enough
to be sung in the court. But, as I had mentioned earlies,
they did use the song on lots of other occasions, to eulogize
the king. I am sorry but I cannot substantiate this directly
by quoting a book, since I do not have the book.
4. I personally would not care about the song, had it been
not our national anthem. Its stature as national anthem
is what makes me unconfortable. For two reasons:
a) I have not yet been able to convince myself that the
song was written for God and not the king, as claimed
by you and others.
b) Even if I accept your arguments, and proposition, it
still does not make it a national anthem. Because either
it is a song devoted to king, (and praises the king)
or it is a song devoted to God (and praises God). In
either case, it is not devoted to Mother India. So,
I do not think that it is qualified enough to be a
national anthem. Because if that could be so, then
any good bhajan could qualify for our national anthem.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Novice
Anonymous IU Student (stu...@indiana.edu) wrote:
: I dont know what the Tamil 'spoof' of the national
: anthem means, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't
: like the national anthem to be 'spoofed'. Perhaps some
: things could be left untouched by irreverence - the
: flag, the anthem among other things.
: Just an old-fashioned thought.
: Samir Dhume
I don't know what the hell the national anthem means.
I wonder whether more than 2% of tamilnadu students know the
meaning of national anthem.
May be if they could have appreciated the meaning of that
Jana Gana stuff (if there is any) they may not have created
the spoof.
By the way, what language is that "Jana Gana" stuff. ?!
I am guessing it to be bengali.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is Hindi or Marathi.
sur...@usa.net
In article <333E5F...@mail.idt.net>,
> As per the Dravidian oracle, power should have been handed over to the
> D.K.( Dravida Kazgam). Even though Corruption is a commonplace in India,
> D.K. would have included the right of politicians to pillage and loot,
It is the brahminical setup of yours which loots the common man
to the hilt. Look at this undereducated guy Krishnamurthy of SAIL.
He became the chairman just because he was a brahmin and looted
200 crores. Now he is part of the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation. Probably
donated 25 lakhs for the "upliftment" of society. What a bunch of
spineless assholes. And this pimp Siddarth has the guts to talk
as though brahminism is the light of the world.
a
> fundamental right under the constitution and this would have avoided all
> the problems.Tamil should have been made the national language and with
Tamil will be the national language if the majority of people in a
a country are Tamils. Tamils do not aspire to prop up a dead language
like some misguided morons do.
> ethnic cleansing should have started 49 years ago.Universities and
> schools should have been abolished and degrees should have been handed
> down to based on caste, as is done now in T.N.Only idiots should have
> been allowed to run for election. These opportunities were missed and
> because of this Kathiravan is not the Prime Minister and has to work for
> a living.What a tragedy.
A honorable profession to earn a living is much better than hiding behind
a religious body and pimping for a bitch just because she is a brahmin.
Ganga.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Valliappa Lakshmanan
>"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
>the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
> bow their heads to your feet. Glory to you, again and again, Oh
> King of the kings!
>
Your thesis seems to be contradicted by the last stanza. If it is Bharat
Mata being addressed, why talk about the "King of Kings". "Queen of them
all" might fit better :)
What year did King George come to India?
>
>Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
>kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
>
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
On the lines of: people going hungry, this is India, followed by foods
they'd like to see (idli, vadai, sambar etc., go back and read it!)
lakshman
Sankara Narayanan
My dear Nalinaksha,
A lie repeated frequently becomes a truth eventually .. but alas, even
the
sheer TRUTH, just because it comes from the Saffron brigade becomes a
lie ..huh ?
It is pathetic that at present only the saffron camp is lobbying for the
truly nationalistic ideas, including Vande Mataram... BTW, as per the
Indian constitution , Vande Mataram should be treated with EQUAL
respect as that of jana-gana-mana (read the article below).
Here is the account of true events .... compiled from 2 main sources :
1. Excerpts from ``Story of a Song: Ecstacy and Agony'' by Shivaramu
...
2. Vande Mataram by Moni Bagchee, published by Bhavan's Book trust.
It's a little long, I know. But I decided to post it this way, because
I did not want to present any partial truths...
------------------------------------------------------
GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
to Tagore's Gitanjali. Once an Indian disciple of Tagore met Yeats.
In a letter to Lady Gregory in America, Yeats mentioned that he had
told him that Sarojini Naidu's brother was unhappy that Tagore wrote
a poem welcoming King George V. He also narrated to her an appetising
story he had from the disciple warning her that it was strictly off the
record. It concerns the circumstances in which Janaganamana
was composed: ``The National Congress people asked Tagore for a poem
of welcome. He tried to write it, but could not. He got up very early
in the morning and wrote a very beautiful poem, not one of his best,
but still beautiful. When he came down, he said to one of us, `Here is
a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
Congress
people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
King.
' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
(The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
The Calcutta Congress session began on December 26, 1911. The
proceedings on the first day began with Vandemataram. The second day was
entirely devoted to things connected with the welcoming of King George
V,
and this day the song Janaganamana was sung, and at the closing ceremony
Rajbhuja Dutt Choudhary's 'Badshah Hamara' was sung. On the third day
Saraladevi sang her own composition 'Namo Hindustan'.
The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
``The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by
him
specially to welcome the Emperor.'' (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
``The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore
of a
song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor.'' (Englishman,
Dec.28).
``When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on
Wednesday
27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted
unanomously.''
(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
loyalty
to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
the
annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
unnatural
or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
singing
a song in praise of the Emperor out of gratitude. But differences of
opinion
were bound to arise when the question of its adoption as the national
anthem
came up. The choice of a national anthem should undoubtedly be one which
can
be a fountain of inspiration by the sanctity of its origin.
Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
characterised
Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
the tide
of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
and
loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
the
country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
King
Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
Also the British government which was charging people with sedition
for
singing Vande Mataram extended high regard to Janaganamana. It was sung
in
Government schools, and in scout groups which fostered loyalty to the
British
throne. At the time British quit India, a fighter plane was presented by
England to India, and on this occasion Janaganamana was sung. The
British
also praised the song. It is anybody's guess as to why they praised it?
ACCEPTENCE AS NATIONAL ANTHEM:
January 26, 1950 was set for the Indian Republic. The national anthem
was
to be chosen before the election of the President. The objection
advanced
Vandemataram was that unlike Janaganamana it did not suit band music,
but
Master Krishna Rao had solved the difficulty. He had given a
demonstration
before the members of the Constituent Assembly who had to decide the
issue.
Moreover, there was generous appreciation from experts in Bombay, both
official
and professional. It was therefore expected, that unless the technical
objec-
tion was a mere facade, the Constituent Assembly would adopt Vande
Mataram
as the national anthem. The Government's objections having been
disproved,
the nation heaved a sigh of relief.
Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
song
was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
on
August 29, 1947, Gandhi ji said, ``Vande Matram should be set to music
so that
millions can sing it together, and feel the thrill. They should all sing
in
the same raga, with the same bhava. Shantiniketan or some other
competent
institution should design an acceptable raga.'' This wish of Gandhi ji
was
fulfilled through Master Krishni Rao's craftmanship.
After this time, the whole of Bengal, under the leadership of its
Premier
Dr B. C. Roy, took up the campaign in favour of Vande Mataram.
In view of this background, the possibility of the members of the
Constit-
uent Assembly, inspired by sentiments of patriotism, adopting Vande
Mataram
as the national anthem was indeed strong. But things were happening
behind the
scene.
AND THE CONTROVERSY STARTED ....
Pt. Vishnu Digambar Paluskar founded the Gandharva Mahavidhyalaya. A
well-
known musician, he was also a proud patriot. He brought into vogue the
tradi-
tion of singing national songs at public functions. .........
.... Paluskar attended Congress session, year after year,
since 1915, and his performance captured the hearts of delegates.
In 1923 the Congress session was held at Kakinada, which is now in
Andhra
Pradesh. As usual Paluskar was invited to it. He rose to sing Vande
Mataram.
Maulana Mohamed Ali was the President of the Congress that year.
``When Vishnu Digambar rose to sing Vande Mataram in conformity with
tradition, Maulana Saheb raised an objection on the ground that music
was
taboo to his religion. The leaders assembled were completely bewildered.
Vishnu
Digambar was incensed, and hit back: `This is a national forum, not the
plateform of any single community. This is no mosque to object to music.
There
is no justification for a ban on music here. When the President could
put up
with the music in the presidential procession, why does he object to it
here?'
Having silenced the President, without waiting for his reply, he
proceeded to
sing Vande Mataram and completed it. Respect for his sense of national
pride
and love of the motherland grew. The people admired his moral courage,
and
applauded him heartily.'' (Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, National Book
Trust, p.54)
It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
object
the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
indication
of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
main-
stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
the
greatness or the popularity of the song. Mahatma Gandhi repeatedly
referred
to the virtues of this national anthem. ``When we sing that ode to the
mother-
land, Bande Mataram, we sing it to the whole of India.'' (Kesari January
1924)
The opposition of Muslim League to Vande Mataram, however, continued
to
wax and they started putting pressure on Congress leadership against the
sing-
ing of this song. It was the height of irony on the part of the Muslim
League,
which was bent upon breaking the unity of India, emotionally,
geographically,
and in all other ways, to express its concern about `the growth of
genuine
natinalism'. Those in Congress who were eager to pander to every
slightest
wish of the League were agitated, and a feeling developed that unless ML
is
dissatisfied and it was won over the unity of the country would be
imperilled.
In such a situation CWC in 1937 decided to maim and curtail the national
song.
The CWC appointed a sub-committee with Maulana Azad, Nehru, Subhash
Chandra
Bose and Acharya Narendra Dev as members to review the eligibility of VM
to
the status of national anthem. The committee was to take the guidance of
Rabindranath Tagore. And this sub-committee endorsed the CWC's
resolution
to adopt VM in its truncated form as the national anthem:
``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
Because
it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
people
so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
couldn't
do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
of
Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
bacame
the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
country
>from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
be
sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
.. AFTER INDEPENDENCE:
In GOI's publication (Our National Songs), it is said that experts
were
of the view that Vande Mataram lacked rhythm and movement. Of course
they were
official experts, and remain unidentified. In their opinion the
essential
qualification of a national anthem is `tal' (beat) and hence recommeded
Janaganamana.
Mahatama Gandhi called Janaganamana a religious hymn, not the
national
anthem, but he characterised numerous times Vandemataram as the national
anthem.
About Janaganamana, Humayun Kabir agrees with the view expressed by
Gandhiji. ``In a sense it is more a religious hymn for all mankind than
a
national anthem for any country.'' (Rabindaranath Tagore, a Centenary
Vol.p.152)
And let us see what are the sentiments expressed by many about VM:
Vandemataram was an expression of nationalism, its very soul, and
therefore
the natinal anthem. It quickly spread throughout India, and was on the
lips of
millions as the national anthem. (Maharishi Aurobind in `Mahayogi' p.47)
``The greatest and most enduring gift of the swedeshi movement was
Vande
Mataram, the uncrowned national anthem.'' (The Cambridge History of
India,
Vol.IV, p.608)
``Bankim Chandra Chatterjee's poem Vande Mataram first appeared in
his
novel Anandamath in 1882, and soon became the Merseillaise of the
nationalist
movement throughout India.'' (A Book of India, B.N. Pande, p.67)
``Bande Mataram: A song which occurs in Bankim Chatterjee's novel.
The song
was quite popular during nationalist agitations in the early part of
this
century in Bengal. Subsequently it became a kind of unofficial national
anthem.'' (Nehru, The first sixty years, Vol.II, p.577)
``Vandemataram, which at the beginning of the 20th century became the
anthem
of the Indian nationalist movement, is the motherland personified.''
(Tilak and
the Struggle for Indian Freedom, p.253)
``Vande Mataram! These are the magic words which will open the door
of his
iron safe, break through the walls of his strong room, and confound the
hearts
of those who are disloyal to its call to say Vande Mataram.''
(Rabindranath
Tagore in Glorious Thoughts of Tagore, p.165)
Therefore, it was the natural expectation that this great national
anthem
would continue as the official national anthem of India. It was used in
the
Constituent assembly, and was sung by Smt. Sucheta Kriplani. But soon a
dis-
cordant note began to be heard. Much to the surprise of its own members,
the
Constituent assembly deferred the question of adopting the national
anthem
again and again. Who were behind the controversy and what were their
motives?
The following excerpt from Pt. Nehru's statement on this issue may
provide
some clue:
``It is unfortunate that some kind of argument has arisen between VM
and Jana.
VM is obviously and indisputedly the premier national song of India,
with a
great historical tradition and intimately connected with our struggle
for
freedom. That position it is bound to retain and no other song can
displace
it. It represents the passion and poignancy of that struggle but perhaps
not
so much the culmination of it. In regard to the national anthem tune, it
was
felt that the tune was more important than the words, and this tune
should be
such as to represent the Indian musical genius as well as to some extent
the
Western, so that it might easily be adapted to orchestra and band music,
and
to playing abroad. The real significance of the national anthem is
perhaps
more abroad than in the home country. Past experience has shown that
Janagana
tune has been greatly appreciated and admired abroad...VM with all its
very
great attraction and historical background, was not easily suitable for
orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
should
continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
anthem
tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
altered
suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
Nehru,
p.139)
The above rational and criteria for selecting a national anthem
coming from
the PM, had shocked the people of India. These ideas of Nehru's were
severly
criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
polls
conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
favored
VM as the national anthem.
``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
to
whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
Knowledge,
Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
The charge that VM cannot be set to the tune to suit band and foreign
orchestra was disproved when it was set to melodious tune by an ace
musician
Master Krishna Rao, but Nehru ji did not budge. And Dr Rajendra Prasad
who
was presiding the Constituent assembly on 24 January 1950 made the
following
statement which also became the final decision on this issue:
``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
is
the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
Government
may authorise as occasion arises, and the song Vande Mataram, which has
played
a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honored
equally
with Janaganamana and shall have equal status with it. (Applause) I hope
this
will satify members.'' (Constituent Assembly of India, Vil.XII,
24-1-1950)
-----------------------------------------
>
> Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
> 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
> find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
> "Sanchayita".
<stuff deleted>
It was really good that you posted all the stanzas..the translation too
was
good... but I think you missed one stanza .. (I am recollecting this
from my
memory)
aharaha tava aahvaana himaachal, suni tava udaar baanI,
hindu-bauddha-sikh-jaina-paarasik musalmaan krishTaanI,
pUrab pashchim yaashe, tava simhaasan paashe ...
.......
Could you complete the remaining lines ???
This stanza, obviously refers to the various religions practised in
India..
The objection that was raised to it's inclusion at that time was that
even if a new religion is formed in future, India will welcome it (Glory
to the great Hindu thought !) .. and the people of that religion may
feel that theirs is not included in the national anthem !
-Sankara Narayanan
Sangeetham
Please guys, let us put an end to all this name calling and obscenities.
It is unbecoming of an educated elite to descend to low level gutter talk.
We all know we have different opinions. There is no need for conflagration
or foul language in airing our differences. On top of all this, this news
group is not the place to discuss this matter. In the name of the musical
trinity, I request all of you to call off these polemics. If you can't say
a nice thing about anything/anybody don't say anything at all. God bless
you all.
Subramanian
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Sankara Narayanan (san...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
: My dear Nalinaksha,
: A lie repeated frequently becomes a truth eventually .. but alas, even
: the
: sheer TRUTH, just because it comes from the Saffron brigade becomes a
: lie ..huh ?
: It is pathetic that at present only the saffron camp is lobbying for the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: truly nationalistic ideas, including Vande Mataram... BTW, as per the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think that the nationalism of Saffron is poison.
: Indian constitution , Vande Mataram should be treated with EQUAL
: respect as that of jana-gana-mana (read the article below).
: Here is the account of true events .... compiled from 2 main sources :
: 1. Excerpts from ``Story of a Song: Ecstacy and Agony'' by Shivaramu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nachiketa has been quoting from this book and has given quotes from the
same parts which you have utilised. Please give the following information
1. Publisher of the book, year of publication.
2. Credentials of Shivaramu.
Nachiketa, despite my many requests did not provide these informations.
: GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
: W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
: and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The great Shivaramu might not have known that the relationship between
Yeats and Tagore deteriorated later.
: to Tagore's Gitanjali. Once an Indian disciple of Tagore met Yeats.
: In a letter to Lady Gregory in America, Yeats mentioned that he had
: told him that Sarojini Naidu's brother was unhappy that Tagore wrote
: a poem welcoming King George V. He also narrated to her an appetising
: story he had from the disciple warning her that it was strictly off the
: record. It concerns the circumstances in which Janaganamana
: was composed: ``The National Congress people asked Tagore for a poem
: of welcome. He tried to write it, but could not. He got up very early
: in the morning and wrote a very beautiful poem, not one of his best,
: but still beautiful. When he came down, he said to one of us, `Here is
: a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Congress
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
: King.
: ' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
: (The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
If this story is true, then the song was composed in praise of God, the
way Tagore conceived him to be. It is however curious that Congress asked
for a poem to welcome the King. Now, if the poet says that he wrote the
poem in praise of God, then that should end the matter and it ,by itself,
proves that the poem was NOT written to salute King George.
: The Calcutta Congress session began on December 26, 1911. The
: proceedings on the first day began with Vandemataram. The second day was
: entirely devoted to things connected with the welcoming of King George
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: V,
~~~~~~~~~
Did King George attend this session? Does any body know.
: and this day the song Janaganamana was sung, and at the closing ceremony
: Rajbhuja Dutt Choudhary's 'Badshah Hamara' was sung. On the third day
: Saraladevi sang her own composition 'Namo Hindustan'.
: The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
: ``The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by
: him
: specially to welcome the Emperor.'' (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
: ``The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore
: of a
: song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor.'' (Englishman,
: Dec.28).
: ``When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on
: Wednesday
: 27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
: resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted
: unanomously.''
: (Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
It is extermely curious that
a)None of the reports mention the name of the song.
b)None of the reports mention whether a public announcement was made
prior to the singing of the song to the effect that the song was composed
in praise of the emperor. Does Shivaramu through a light on this subject?
c)Two of the papers were well known for their pro-british stance-namely,
Englishman and Statesman.
: In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
: loyalty
: to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
: the
: annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
: unnatural
: or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is also extremely curious that Shivaramu ignores the earlier statement
attributed to the poet that the song was composed in praise of God.
: singing
: a song in praise of the Emperor out of gratitude. But differences of
: opinion
: were bound to arise when the question of its adoption as the national
: anthem
: came up. The choice of a national anthem should undoubtedly be one which
: can
: be a fountain of inspiration by the sanctity of its origin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All very laudable objective. Let me add that I have no opinion on the
suitability or lack of it of Jana Gana Mana as a national anthem.
However, this display of patriotic fervour is somewhat suspect because
clearly Shivaramu did not find it amiss that, as per his narration, it was
the Congress party which organised the welcome. Also his statement about
loyality to country being equivalent to loyality to the king in the
mindset of the then leaders show that he had no idea of the intensity of
Banga-Vanga Aandolan.
: Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to Arnab Gupta's posting he did!
: characterised
: Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
: the tide
: of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
: and
: loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: the
: country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: King
: Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When did this transition occurr? Did the Banga-Vanga aandolan thought
that love for country is equal to love for the king? Once again what are
Shiva Ramu's credentials? The authors of the book quoted by me ("Khaki
Shorts and Saffron Flag") were academics.
: Also the British government which was charging people with sedition
: for
: singing Vande Mataram extended high regard to Janaganamana. It was sung
: in
: Government schools, and in scout groups which fostered loyalty to the
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All the narrations of Bengali school life in those days must have missed
this singing of Jana Gana Mana or may be it was not implemented in
Bengal! Mostly the Govt.schools sang God save the King.
: British
: throne. At the time British quit India, a fighter plane was presented by
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How come we are just left with a one liner-is there a newspaper report
of this incident?
: England to India, and on this occasion Janaganamana was sung. The
: British
: also praised the song. It is anybody's guess as to why they praised it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When and where did the British praise it?
: Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
: song
: was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was it? I thought it was Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram.......
:
: It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
: object
: the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
: indication
: of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: main-
: stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The chauvinistic slip is showing!. Mohammed Ali objected to the song
being sung on the ground that it is against his religious belief.
Paluskar believed that he had a right to sing the song and went ahead
and sang it. Paluskar certainly had the right, but why does Shivaramu
conclude that the assertion that music is taboo makes Mohammed Ali the
separatist? Or is it that nationalism is as defined by Hindus only?
: The opposition of Muslim League to Vande Mataram, however, continued
: to
: wax and they started putting pressure on Congress leadership against the
: sing-
: ing of this song. It was the height of irony on the part of the Muslim
: League,
: which was bent upon breaking the unity of India, emotionally,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: geographically,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: and in all other ways, to express its concern about `the growth of
: genuine
: natinalism'. Those in Congress who were eager to pander to every
: slightest
: wish of the League were agitated, and a feeling developed that unless ML
: is
: dissatisfied and it was won over the unity of the country would be
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: imperilled.
: In such a situation CWC in 1937 decided to maim and curtail the national
: song.
The above paragraph is cock and bull. Nehru's shameful sabotage of
Cabinet Mission plan is now well known. So is the way Badshah Khan was
left high and dry. We all know about League's complicity in partition.
Congress also is equally guilty of partition. Once again Shivaramu's
credentials please. Also let us know whether he was/is a member of RSS/BJP.
: ``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
: Because
: it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So the Muslims were "foreign"!.How were these muslim rulers foreigners?
They were as much Indian as you or me.
: object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: people
: so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: couldn't
: do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
motivation was to save his job.
: of
: Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
: bacame
: the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
: country
: >from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
: mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
: be
: sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
": orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
: should
: continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
: anthem
: tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: altered
: suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
: Nehru,
: p.139)
I have deleted the voluminous quotes you have reproduced in narrating the
historic role of Vande Mataram. This is not disputed. What is disputed
(by me) is that Jana Gana Mana was composed to eulogise King George. The
praise of Vande Mataram is a non-sequiter. I would also like to know how
was the wording of Jana Gana Mana altered?
: criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
: polls
: conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: favored
: VM as the national anthem.
Gallup poll indeed! Who conducted it and when and how?
: ``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
: anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
: to
: whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
: Knowledge,
: Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
: ``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
: is
: the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray what were the alterations if any?
: >
: > Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
: > 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
: > find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
: > "Sanchayita".
: <stuff deleted>
: It was really good that you posted all the stanzas..the translation too
: was
: good... but I think you missed one stanza .. (I am recollecting this
: from my
: memory)
: aharaha tava aahvaana himaachal, suni tava udaar baanI,
: hindu-bauddha-sikh-jaina-paarasik musalmaan krishTaanI,
: pUrab pashchim yaashe, tava simhaasan paashe ...
: .......
: Could you complete the remaining lines ???
Sure
..............................premhar hoy gatha
Jaya jaya jaya he, jaya Rajeshwar, Bharat Bhagya Bidhataa
: This stanza, obviously refers to the various religions practised in
: India..
: The objection that was raised to it's inclusion at that time was that
: even if a new religion is formed in future, India will welcome it (Glor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
y
: to the great Hindu thought !) .. and the people of that religion may
: feel that theirs is not included in the national anthem !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am curious to know the name of the person who raised such an asinine
objection. Incidentally, I grew up in Assam. There has been lot of anti
Bengali propaganda in Assam. Many Assamese sincerely believe that
Rabindranath was anti-Assamese and thats why he did not include either
Assam in Panjab-Sindhu-Gujrat-Maratha-Dravir-Utkal-Banga or the mighty
Brahmaputra in Vindhya-Himachal-Jamuna-Ganga. As a result in many
official functions in Assam Jana Gana Mana was replaced with Lakshminath
Bezbarua's "Aa Mor AAponar Dexh". Considering that Tagore did not name
the Bahai, Shinto, Tao in his litany of religions the song should have
been instantly rejected:)).
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Nachiketa has been quoting from this book and has given quotes from the
: same parts which you have utilised. Please give the following information
: 1. Publisher of the book, year of publication.
: 2. Credentials of Shivaramu.
: Nachiketa, despite my many requests did not provide these informations.
Listen. I have also given refs. from newspapers. Why do you
not go and check into the archives of these newspapers. I
am sure that you have contacts in India. And if you are so
acutely worried, pl. go and and check into that.
Or is it you habit to simply ask for refs. when you have
nothing substantial to add.
Still further, there has been atleast one more person,
(Arnab) who posted excerpts from a biography of RNT
which claims that there is a good chance that the song
was written for the king. His biography also says, that
RNT was approached the by INC folks to write such a songs,
and on the morning after, he did produce such a song.
And then RNT added, that the song was written for the
deity, but could be used for praise of God. But then
he did afterall accept the request of INC to write the
song. That creates a suspicion, that RNT quite possibly
and quite unhappily, did write a song to praise the king.
Still further, this song was sung in the INC session, in
praise of king. I am quite sure that Arnab's ref. might
also testify that. So you have two choices:
a) TO check into the accuracy of these refs. (papers, and Arnab's
ref.)
b) To complain, whine and then ask me to shut up, as you
did on a previous occasion.
: : GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
: : W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
: : and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: The great Shivaramu might not have known that the relationship between
: Yeats and Tagore deteriorated later.
And so, perhaps of spite, Yeats decided to tarnish RNT. Very
much like RSS in present times. Keep on going, NB, I am listening.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
<a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
particular community.
"Jana Gana Mana" and "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" both were considered, but
Iqbal having become fanatic pro-pakistani in his last days, his
composition was rejected . Jana Gana Mana was Hindi-ized from its
original Bengali rendering and accepted unanimously, with no scope of
resentment from any religious groups.
"Vande Mataram" was systematically phased out by pseudo-secularists(
and,I am quite ashamed to say, even Mahatma Gandhi, who considered the
song an emblem of the violence-minded freedom fighters) even though it
was the song of mass appeal at the time of independence. Forgetting
history, "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" was prodded on at every
occasion(especially by Gandhiji and his henchman Chacha Nehru),- the
result is the regular playing of this song by the Military Band at every
Independence and Republic Day parades to this day.
Instead of there being disputes over "Vande Mataram" versus "Jana Gana
Mana" , both of which can ostensibly serve as our National Anthem, we
should try to revive the "Vande Mataram" as truly the National Song,- it
would make more sense to issue official orders to the organizers of the
bands to play it instead of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha".
Such is the pseudo-secular push for "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" that (I
forget the name of the event) in the last Asian Games, one Indian Medal
winner was (mistakenly ??????) greeted at the medal-award-podium with the
tune of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" INSTEAD OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM !!!!
what a shame!!!!!!!!
The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
-Apurba Krishna Sircar
"I can resist everything but Temptation" -Oscar Wilde
N. Tiwari
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
: bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
: <a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
: > Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
: From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
: according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
: God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
: for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
: adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
: particular community.
: "Jana Gana Mana" and "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" both were considered, but
: Iqbal having become fanatic pro-pakistani in his last days, his
: composition was rejected . Jana Gana Mana was Hindi-ized from its
: original Bengali rendering and accepted unanimously, with no scope of
: resentment from any religious groups.
Actually, there was a lot of resentment from the Vande Mataram
bhaktas. Gandhi was one of those persons, who favored VM. But
Chacha, was indeed the boss.
: "Vande Mataram" was systematically phased out by pseudo-secularists(
: and,I am quite ashamed to say, even Mahatma Gandhi, who considered the
: song an emblem of the violence-minded freedom fighters) even though it
: was the song of mass appeal at the time of independence. Forgetting
: history, "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" was prodded on at every
: occasion(especially by Gandhiji and his henchman Chacha Nehru),- the
: result is the regular playing of this song by the Military Band at every
: Independence and Republic Day parades to this day.
Is that right. THis will indeed be news to me, that Gandhiji
actually oppose the usage of Vande Mataram. I thought otherwise. Could you
pl. substantiate this claim of yours. Irrespective of Gandhiji's
views, I feel that Vande Mataram, is much more aesthetic,
much more moving, and much more beautiful tribute to Bharat
Mataa. Iqbal's song, is a song about lifeless land, while
VM is about a mataa. Jana Gana is a song about king, (or
according to Nalinaksha and others, about God), but
definitely not about mother India.
: Instead of there being disputes over "Vande Mataram" versus "Jana Gana
: Mana" , both of which can ostensibly serve as our National Anthem, we
: should try to revive the "Vande Mataram" as truly the National Song,- it
: would make more sense to issue official orders to the organizers of the
: bands to play it instead of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha".
: Such is the pseudo-secular push for "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" that (I
: forget the name of the event) in the last Asian Games, one Indian Medal
: winner was (mistakenly ??????) greeted at the medal-award-podium with the
: tune of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" INSTEAD OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM !!!!
: what a shame!!!!!!!!
A shame indeed.
: The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
: the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
I personally do not care about Jana Gana Mana. To me, it is
pretty uninspiring. However, I still feel moved, when I revisit
my days in India. During those days, each morning, on Vividh
Bharati, the first song which was sung was Vande Mataram. A
group of men and women used to do that. That used to be a good
thing to begin with. Also, Hemant Kumar's rendition of the
song, in movie Vande Mataram, is quite beautiful, though difficult
to sing. I totally agree that conscious efforts should
be made to restore Vande Mataram to its pristine glory. To me,
it acts like a mantra.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Srabani Banerjee
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
[...]
> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> daily.
In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
down people's throats. Why?
Srabani
d...@csd.uwm.edu
Can we please keep this thread OUT of rec.music.indian.classical?
Please.
Balaji Gadhiraju
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Sankara Narayanan (san...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
> I am curious to know the name of the person who raised such an asinine
> objection. Incidentally, I grew up in Assam. There has been lot of anti
> Bengali propaganda in Assam. Many Assamese sincerely believe that
> Rabindranath was anti-Assamese and thats why he did not include either
> Assam in Panjab-Sindhu-Gujrat-Maratha-Dravir-Utkal-Banga or the mighty
> Brahmaputra in Vindhya-Himachal-Jamuna-Ganga. As a result in many
> official functions in Assam Jana Gana Mana was replaced with Lakshminath
> Bezbarua's "Aa Mor AAponar Dexh". Considering that Tagore did not name
> the Bahai, Shinto, Tao in his litany of religions the song should have
> been instantly rejected:)).
>
>
> --
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
I don't know why Ravindranath Tagore referred to entire south india as
dravid, where as there are four major independent cultures there, like
any of the cultures he specifically refers to like Punjab-sindhu-gujarat
etc.
May be he was ignorant about these facts. But it is not proper to club
around 30% of population into some "misc" category.
By the way Andhra Pradesh has it's own defacto state anthem.
I am curious to know if other states also have similar songs?
Regards,
balaji.
--
Sankara Narayanan
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
> : a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : Congress
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
> : King.
> : ' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
> : (The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
>
> If this story is true, then the song was composed in praise of God, the
> way Tagore conceived him to be. It is however curious that Congress asked
> for a poem to welcome the King. Now, if the poet says that he wrote the
> poem in praise of God, then that should end the matter and it ,by itself,
> proves that the poem was NOT written to salute King George.
That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
anthem of a secular state ??
<snip> <snip>
>
> : In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
> : loyalty
> : to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
> : the
> : annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
> : unnatural
> : or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> It is also extremely curious that Shivaramu ignores the earlier statement
> attributed to the poet that the song was composed in praise of God.
>
Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
in praise of the King.
<snip> <snip>
> : Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> According to Arnab Gupta's posting he did!
May be .. that's interesting !
>
> : characterised
> : Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
> : the tide
> : of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
> : and
> : loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : the
> : country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : King
> : Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> When did this transition occurr? Did the Banga-Vanga aandolan thought
> that love for country is equal to love for the king? Once again what are
> Shiva Ramu's credentials? The authors of the book quoted by me ("Khaki
> Shorts and Saffron Flag") were academics.
This is ridiculous ! SOme of the historians and academics are treated
with what can be called as 'intellectual untouchability' just
because they bring out some truths which match the idelogy of the
Saffron camp ! Shivaramu is one of them.
The authors of "Khakhi Shirts ..." are well known for their bias
towards a camp and their childish pransks on some aspetcs connected
with Indian History and Nationalism.
<snip>
> : Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
> : song
> : was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Was it? I thought it was Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram.......
Actually Gandhiji's prayer consisted of many songs and Bhajans...
Vande Mataram was the first and foremost of the Nationalistic
songs sung in his prayer meetings.. Later on it included the full
version of Jana Gana Mana also ..Refer to "Ashram Bhajanavali",
A Book of Gandhian prayers in Hindi published by Navjivan Trust.
<snip>
>
> : It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
> : object
> : the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
> : indication
> : of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : main-
> : stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The chauvinistic slip is showing!. Mohammed Ali objected to the song
> being sung on the ground that it is against his religious belief.
> Paluskar believed that he had a right to sing the song and went ahead
> and sang it. Paluskar certainly had the right, but why does Shivaramu
> conclude that the assertion that music is taboo makes Mohammed Ali the
> separatist? Or is it that nationalism is as defined by Hindus only?
I don't find ANY chauvinitic slip here ! The point is that Md. Ali
objected to the singing of the Song which was the soul of Nationalistic
Movement and the Slogan of millions of Indians on the grounds that
it was against HIS RELIGION.. Does that mean only things supported
by HIS RELIGION should form the core of nationalism ?? THe point
is not music being taboo.. but disrespecting the nationalistic
sentiments based on the narrow parochial views of his religion !
<snip> <snip>
> : ``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
> : Because
> : it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> So the Muslims were "foreign"!.How were these muslim rulers foreigners?
> They were as much Indian as you or me.
>
> : object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : people
> : so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : couldn't
> : do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> motivation was to save his job.
I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
specific to Anandmath ..
During the freedom movement, SHivaji Maharaj was projected as a great
hero, all over India particularly in Maharashtra ... NOt just because
he opposed Muslims, because of his quest for freedom, Same was true
with Rana Pratap Singh , Guru Gobind SIngh etc..
>
> : of
> : Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
> : bacame
> : the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
> : country
> : >from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
> : mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
> : be
> : sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
>
> Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
> However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
> Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
That's what I said in the begining .. DOes truth become
false just because it comes from Saffron Camp ?? BTW, this
is another Mukherjee, not Shyama Prasad.
>
> ": orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
> : should
> : continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
> : anthem
> : tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : altered
> : suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
> : Nehru,
> : p.139)
>
> I have deleted the voluminous quotes you have reproduced in narrating the
> historic role of Vande Mataram. This is not disputed. What is disputed
> (by me) is that Jana Gana Mana was composed to eulogise King George. The
> praise of Vande Mataram is a non-sequiter. I would also like to know how
> was the wording of Jana Gana Mana altered?
Agreed with the first part of your above statement.. the significance
of all those quotes IS that everyone who praised VM called it an
unoffical National Anthem and a great portrayal of Indian
Nationhood... But Jana gana Mana never received any such remark
from anybody, even if we assume that JGM was composed to praise
GOd and not the KIng, still it does not make it any better to
the already existing National Anthem, VM.
GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
of some people/groups.
The think the alteration of the wordings here mean the Hindi-sation
of the original Bengali version.
>
> : criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
> : polls
> : conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : favored
> : VM as the national anthem.
>
> Gallup poll indeed! Who conducted it and when and how?
I don't have any resources as proof at this moment to foster this
argument. Will reproduce one if I get it.
>
> : ``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
> : anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
> : to
> : whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
> : Knowledge,
> : Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
>
> The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
naional and intolerant..
First of all, it is a false objection to call VM as a song of idolatory
!
It praises the natural resources of the great land of India and
expresses solidarity towards the Mother India ...
Just because it was sung in praise of Durga Ma doesn't make it a
idolatory or religious song ... I am just curious to know whether
Islamic beleif allows even the idea of National Anthem or not ! Because
the national anthem praises the NATION and not Allah !
I would also like to know what are the national anthems of Strictly
Islamic countires (Saudi Arabia, Iran etc.) and whether they
praise anything other than Allah or Islam !
If such is thre case, why can't Muslims oppose the national emblem
of India, which is an IDOL from an ancient pillar, of lions, chakra
and bull ? Above all, it's engraved with the words 'Satyameve
Jayate' from Mundaka Upanishad, holy book of Hindus ?
Do they have the courage to do it ??
This is nothing but Muslim communalism and Fundamentalism,
whch finds fault with every damn thing saying it's against
ISlam ! I am surprised how a sensible person like you
could defend a filthy argument like this !
>
> : ``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
> : is
> : the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Pray what were the alterations if any?
The alteraions meant the dropping of the other stanzas, except
the first one .. Pl. remember that the above lines are quoted
from the Proceedings of Lok Sabha,.. they are not the views
of any individual !
-Sankara Narayanan
Supratik Das
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
> In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
> bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
> <a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
> > Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
> From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
> according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
> God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
> for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
> adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
> particular community.
I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think Vande Mataram
should definitely be revived. The arguement about worshipping the mother
is illogocal because this is meant to eulogize the motherland i.e. the
LAND. Countless Muslim countries have national songs which eulogize the
'Fatherland'. The arguement against 'Vande Mataram' forwarded by pseudos
and plefties like Nalinaksha is stupid. Nalinaksha and comrades can in the
meantime sing 'Vande Mao Tse Tung....' if he wishes. India is free
country after all.
> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
> the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
Since you brought it up I'll let you know that the 'Saffron Brigade'
tried that but were time and again prevented from doing so. They
tried it in UP and the Left in colloboration with that decent fellow
Mulayam jumped up and down with their dhotis. Of course the
Congressi hoodlums cannot be expected to understand such delicate
matters as national anthem, etc. India is the only country (I don't know
of any other) which doesn't ask its schoolchildren to sing the national
anthem (I am not even talking about the national song) regularly. The
pseudo garbage wouldn't allow it even though their Commie brethen
elsewhere do sing such songs sometimes in praise of Mao as in China.
> -Apurba Krishna Sircar
Supratik
Uday S. Reddy
Mr. Narayanan,
I notice that despite repeated urgings by N.Bhattacharya, you have
provided no information about the credentials of this Mr. Shivaramu
that you quoted at length. That is important because without knowing
he is, we don't know how authentic his information is, what his
standards of proof are etc. (I know Indian publishers often don't
give us information about the authors. But have you tried to find
out?) Any knowledge of his ideological leanings is also important
because obviously ideology colors one's historical perceptions.
>
> That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
> God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
> anthem of a secular state ??
First of all, you seem to be accepting that Tagore wrote it in praise
of God. If so, this puts to rest the obscene accusation that it was
written in praise of King George.
I don't find it significant that it is not written in praise of
"Mother India." The poem symbolizes praying to God, collectively as a
nation, and asking for his blessings for the welfare of the nation. I
see nothing unnational about that.
I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
Godlessness, it means that the government must transcend the sectarian
religious boundaries. If some atheist that does not believe in God at
all, complains that his national anthem is forcing him to pray to God,
I guess we will have reason to contemplate. But, we are a long way
from that yet.
>
> Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
> Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
> the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
> gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
> towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
> poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
> in praise of the King.
It is one thing to "welcome" the King and quite another to praise him
as the "Jana gana mana adhinaayak," don't you think? Tagore wasn't
welcoming anybody in his poem. I find it quite insulting for anybody
to suggest that Tagore was calling King George the "Bharat Bhagya
Vidhata" and even worse to suggest that we sing it everyday in total
ignorance!
> > I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> > was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> > sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> > the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> > motivation was to save his job.
>
> I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
> who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
> kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
> specific to Anandmath ..
NB gave the facts. He didn't insult anybody. Are you or are you not
accepting the claim that the first edition of Anandamath was about
struggle against the British?
> > Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
> > However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
> > Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
>
> That's what I said in the begining .. DOes truth become
> false just because it comes from Saffron Camp ?? BTW, this
> is another Mukherjee, not Shyama Prasad.
How do you know? And, what is his full name, if you do know?
[And, yes, anything that comes from the Hindutva adherents has to be
taken with a very large dose of salt and cross-checked with other
sources.]
> Agreed with the first part of your above statement.. the significance
> of all those quotes IS that everyone who praised VM called it an
> unoffical National Anthem and a great portrayal of Indian
> Nationhood... But Jana gana Mana never received any such remark
> from anybody, even if we assume that JGM was composed to praise
> GOd and not the KIng, still it does not make it any better to
> the already existing National Anthem, VM.
>
> GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
> it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
> made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
> of some people/groups.
I will come to the question about why VM could have been thrown out as
the National Anthem. But, what do you have against JGM to complain
about it?
You are still free to sing VM. It has the status as a National song.
It is respected all over the country. After all, the Akash Vani
program everyday begins with VM. So, what are we fighting about?
> > The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> > worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> > claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> > They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> > as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
>
> This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
> naional and intolerant..
Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
they call it "idolatory."
That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
sing it.
Uday Reddy
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu
Supratik Das wrote:
> I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think
> Vande Mataram should definitely be revived.
Is Vande Mataram worth quarreling over ? Jana Gana Mana has served
its purpose for a while now.
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu
Supratik Das wrote:
> I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think
> Vande Mataram should definitely be revived.
Is reviving Vande Mataram a higher priority than reducing the Muslim
birth rate ?
I was thinking about my reply to your posting yesterday and it struck
me that the 10 muslims added to India's population every year will
alter the balance in India faster than the Christians can gain
enough converts to create a third pole.
How do I get 10 million ?
Current estimates range up to 160 million Muslims.
Nearly half of them are below 20 & just getting ready to have 5
children.
So, we have 40 million women below 20 who will have 5 children
each in 20 years. That's 200 million children in 20 years or
10 million a year.
What about deaths ? Let's say illegal immigration more than balances
out deaths.
VB
>> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
>> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
>> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
>> daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
>> the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
I'm not too sure about this. While (re)introducing VM is
quite commendable, why make it (VM,JGM or any such thingie)
*mandatory*? If a student doesnt sing VM/JGM, how would you
go about punishing him/her?
When you have 'patriotism-by-decree', you'll have 'patriots-
by-decree'; Is this what you want? An orwellian sheep-like
student body singing in one glorious voice? (then again, thus
spake the manifesto of the largest party in the land:
"one nation, one people, one culture").
As long as a student (like any other citizen of India) does
not go about deliberately defacing national icons, I think we
should let go easy; While someday in the near future we could
allow flag burning but our nation is too young, too ragtag, too
unsure of itself not to feel threatened by such actions.
Here's to the future.
>> -Apurba Krishna Sircar
>Supratik
N. Tiwari
VB (ba...@cs.umn.edu) wrote:
: Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
: I'm not too sure about this. While (re)introducing VM is
: quite commendable, why make it (VM,JGM or any such thingie)
: *mandatory*? If a student doesnt sing VM/JGM, how would you
: go about punishing him/her?
Perhaps we are splitting too many hairs
here. In schools, it is quite common to
sing the national anthem, or a prayer
on certain occasions. I do not think
that anyone raises major ruckus
over such singing. Some of the crowd
sings, and some others, talk. And the
teachers, on quite a number of occasions
rebuke the ones who talk. But people still
talk, like I did. Not because people assert
their "right" to talk, but because people
too often forget the rebukes, and find
talking more enjoyable. And the game
continues. It is only on the fora like
sci where you could make a thread out
of it.
: When you have 'patriotism-by-decree', you'll have 'patriots-
: by-decree'; Is this what you want? An orwellian sheep-like
: student body singing in one glorious voice? (then again, thus
: spake the manifesto of the largest party in the land:
: "one nation, one people, one culture").
India is one nation. It is indeed one people. It has indeed
one culture. Many people prior to the current times have
made such claims. Gandhi for one. BJP is only re_echoing
what has been said earlier.
: As long as a student (like any other citizen of India) does
: not go about deliberately defacing national icons, I think we
: should let go easy; While someday in the near future we could
: allow flag burning but our nation is too young, too ragtag, too
: unsure of itself not to feel threatened by such actions.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Sankara Narayanan
Uday S. Reddy wrote:
>
> Mr. Narayanan,
>
> I notice that despite repeated urgings by N.Bhattacharya, you have
> provided no information about the credentials of this Mr. Shivaramu
> that you quoted at length. That is important because without knowing
> he is, we don't know how authentic his information is, what his
> standards of proof are etc. (I know Indian publishers often don't
> give us information about the authors. But have you tried to find
> out?) Any knowledge of his ideological leanings is also important
> because obviously ideology colors one's historical perceptions.
My Dear Uday,
Most part of Shivaramu's article quoted by me, contained facts
and quotes from many newspapers, magazines and some books...
It is just a compilation, nicely arranged to bring out the
various phases thru' which the controversey went thru'.
There is very less of views and opinions in that article.
If you think that even the quotations are altered, you are
free to refer to all the archives for their validity !
This apart, I have tried to find out info about the author... This
article is only the last part of a book authored by him on the subject
of
Vande Mataram song and the controversy surrounding it. Will post
once I get the info.
BTW< what makes you think there are ideological colours ??? The
article presented the info about both the songs in an impartial
manner.. IS it because, by any chance you are trying to look at
with coloured glasses ?
>
> >
> > That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
> > God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
> > anthem of a secular state ??
>
> First of all, you seem to be accepting that Tagore wrote it in praise
> of God. If so, this puts to rest the obscene accusation that it was
> written in praise of King George.
>
> I don't find it significant that it is not written in praise of
> "Mother India." The poem symbolizes praying to God, collectively as a
> nation, and asking for his blessings for the welfare of the nation. I
> see nothing unnational about that.
>
> I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
> secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
> Godlessness, it means that the government must transcend the sectarian
> religious boundaries. If some atheist that does not believe in God at
> all, complains that his national anthem is forcing him to pray to God,
> I guess we will have reason to contemplate. But, we are a long way
> from that yet.
I agree to you here.. In fact the secularism practised in India is
a misnoker. Selcularism means (as per OXford English Dictionary) the
disassociation of any aspects of religion from any part of politics
or education..
But INdia has so many religious holidays etc... So what is practised
in the garb of secularism the age-old respect and tolerance for
all relgions ie. sarva-dharma-sama-bhava foster over centuries by
the Rishis and great men of Hindu religion..
Given that, I feel a national anthem SHOULD praise the nation, not
just it's geography, but every aspects of it's vibrant life, it's
very soul .. and that's why in the initial phases of Freedom
struggle, the entire nation accepted VM as the national anthem ..
ad please note that VM spread thru' the whole nation naturally
with the spreading of the Swadeshi movement.. and was already
in the hearts of millions as a symbol of nationalism.
> >
> > Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
> > Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
> > the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
> > gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
> > towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
> > poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
> > in praise of the King.
>
> It is one thing to "welcome" the King and quite another to praise him
> as the "Jana gana mana adhinaayak," don't you think? Tagore wasn't
> welcoming anybody in his poem. I find it quite insulting for anybody
> to suggest that Tagore was calling King George the "Bharat Bhagya
> Vidhata" and even worse to suggest that we sing it everyday in total
> ignorance!
Bharat-Bhagya-Bidhata means 'Ruler of India's Destiny'. If this title
perfectly suited somebody in those days,it was none other
than the BRitish King , right ?
(This doen't mean I'm saying he wrote it in praise of the King, I still
feel it was in praise of God)
>
> > > I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> > > was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> > > sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> > > the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> > > motivation was to save his job.
> >
> > I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
> > who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
> > kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
> > specific to Anandmath ..
>
> NB gave the facts. He didn't insult anybody. Are you or are you not
> accepting the claim that the first edition of Anandamath was about
> struggle against the British?
LInking Anandmath and VM itself is not appropriate.. Bankim authored
VM as an independant song first and then incorporated it into his
novel... It should be noted that nobody wanted ANandmath to be
declared as a National Novel !So, VM should judged independently as
a song in itself.
Here is the account of the full story, compiled from the same soucres :
It is true that Vande Mataram blossomed forth in Anandamath, but it
is
even more true that it was Bankim's intention that it should blossom
forth
beyond Anandamath. For Vande Mataram, the song, was composed before
Anandamath was written.
How Bankim saw the wonderful vision that worked as a most powerful
spiri-
tual lever in the movement for his country's liberation, how he
immortalised
that vision in the hymn are not fully known. But this much is known that
one
auspicious moment arrived, in 1875, when Bankim took a holiday to escape
from
the hectic life of Calcutta. He boarded a train bound for his native
town
Kantalapada. As the city left behind, there was greenry all around and
his
heart filled with joy. The contemplation of the motherland with her rich
rivers, flowers, fruits and forests sent a pulsating current through
Bankim.
In that instant the sod was turned into divinity by magic. His eyes and
ears
became alert, hungry. His inner eye beheld the motherland in all her
rich
variety and beauty; his inner ear listened to voices from the earth, the
air
and the sky. And Nature begot her song! She gave it to benevolent
Bankim! He
bowed and received the gift. And then he reduced it to writing, as one
who
saw and heard the whole of it.
{\obeylines
Vande Mataram!
}
Those lakes, and rivers, the sacred Ganga, Jamuna, Godavari, Saraswati,
Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri; and those groves laden with fruits of many
kinds,
a very paradise on earth; and the soft breeze which gently kisses as it
passes by; and the endless greenry....
{\obeylines
Sujalam suphalam
Malayaja sheetalam
Sasya shyamalam
Mataram!
}
And the land bathed in moonlight, trees and creepers gay with tender
leaves
and flowers, the sweet smile and melodious voice.....
{\obeylines
Shubhra jyotsna pulakitayamineem
Phullakusumita drumadala shobhineem
Suhasineem sumadhura bhashineem
Sukhadam, varadam Mataram!
And the leonine roar that issues from multi-million throats; the
blinding
flash of millions of swords leaping up in an instant; and the spectacle
of
unfettered strength triumphantly trampling the enemy under its
elephantine
foot....
{\obeylines
Koti koti kantha kalakala ninadakarale
Koti koti bhujairdhrutakharakaravale
Ke bale ma tumi abale
Bahubala dharineem
Namami tarineem
Ripudala varineem
Mataram!
}
The ancient land of giver of the Vedas, and those centers of devotion,
power and knowledge....
{\obeylines
Tumi vidhya tumi dharma
Tumi hridi tumi marma
Twam hi pranah shareere
Bahute tumi ma shakti
Hridaye tumi ma bhakti
Tomarayi pratima gadi
Mandire mandire!
}
Jaya Durgi....Sri Lakshmi....Sri Saraswati... motherland! the Goddess
incarnate
{\obeylines
Twam hi Durga dashapraharana dharinee
Kamala kamaladala viharinee
Vani vidyadayinee
Namami twam
Namami kamalam
Amalam atulam
Sujalam suphalam
Mataram
Vande Mataram!
}
The one evergreen, ever new, and endowed with riches of many kinds....
{\obeylines
Shyamalam saralam
Susmitam bhushitam
Dharaneem bharaneem
Mataram!
}
The song was born, Bankim put the infant in the cradle of
Anandamath. He knew the great promise of the infant. The prophet was
aware
of the historic role it would play in times to come.
INCOPORATED IN ANANDMATH :
At the beginning of this novel:
A human voice breaks the midnight silence of a dark, dense forest:
``Will not my desire be fulfilled?''
``What price are you prepared to pay for it?'' The counter-question was
the
answer.
``My life, and all that is mine.''
``Your life is not of much moment; anyone can sacrifice it.''
``What else can I offer? Name the price.''
``Devotion!''
Holding life cheap, banishing the fear of death, devotion illumines
the
frontiers of the human mind in a sudden upsurge. The center of such
devo-
tion is Mother, the symbol of the Motherland! That was the premises on
which
the song Vandemataram gets incorporated in the novel.
A description of this Motherland occurs in Chapter 10:
Bhavananda is in a different mood. He is no more a sanaysin, bold and
infle-
xible. He is no more the ruthless general of the army. He isn't the
arrogant
man who a moment ago had humbled Mahendra. Amid the beauty of the land
and
water bathed in moonlight, his mind dances like an ocean in tide at the
sight
of the moon. Bhavananda turns gay and eager for friendly conversation.
He is
eager to talk. He makes many attempts to talk, but Mahendra does not
respond.
And then Bhavananda begins to sing for himself:
{\obeylines
Vande Mataram
Sujalam Suphalam
Malayaja Sheetalam
Mataram!
}
He sings with all his heart and soul, with great devotion, and his
masculine
voice, so pleasing to the ear, echoes and re-echoes, and filling the
whole
horizon with its resonance, creates an indescribable atmosphere...
Mahendra hears the song and is amazed. He cannot understand it. He asks
who
is the Mother, fed by rivers, fruit-bearing treas and fanned by the cool
breeze of the mountains.
Bhavananda does not seem to pay attention to the question. He is
immersed in
the song. Without pausing to answer him, he continues:
{\obeylines
Shubhrajyotsna pulakitayamineem
Phullakusumita drumadala shobhineem
.....
.....
}
Mahendra at first thinks that it may be an invocation to Durga. And then
he
feels it could not be. It is a description of the country, not of the
Goddess Durga. At that point Bhavananda wants to speak. The meaning of
the
song, and the way of his life, were not different. He explains it: ``We
do
not accept any other Mother. Jananee Janambhoomishcha swargadapi
gariyasi.
The motherland is our Mother; apart from her we have no mother, father,
brothers, wife or children, home of personal life; sujala, suphala,
malayaja
sheetalam, that is all we have.''
And then Mahendra understands the import of the song. He asks Bhavananda
to
continue the song. And as he sings tears roll down his cheeks...
And a new inspiration overcomes him. And now he is new person!
This is how other characters of the story get inspired and united. The
sublime characters which take part in the great story of Anandmath and
grow up
in elevating atmosphere display not only patriotism of a high order, but
also
the terrific strength of the sinews. They are living sparks which in the
face
of humiliation, burst into flames. They carry their love of the
motherland into
action. Koti koti kantha kalakala ninada karale! Koti koti bhujairdhruta
kharakaravale! These lines are then witnessed in earth-shaking events.
Individuals are mere tools.
The saga of the struggle and sacrifices of the heroes and martyres of
freedom is nothing but a manifestation of the unconquerable will of the
great Mother who inspired the saint and prophet Bankim to write
Anandamath
and give unto us Vande Mataram, the hymn of Liberty!
<snip> <Snip>
> > GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
> > it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
> > made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
> > of some people/groups.
>
> I will come to the question about why VM could have been thrown out as
> the National Anthem. But, what do you have against JGM to complain
> about it?
>
> You are still free to sing VM. It has the status as a National song.
> It is respected all over the country. After all, the Akash Vani
> program everyday begins with VM. So, what are we fighting about?
>
I don't have aything aginst JGM.. I never said anything against it
in my posts also.. But Vande Mataram was a product of the true
and genuine emotions of the freedom struggle..
Congress and it's leardes buried all the good things and the
spirit of the national movement after independance and that's
why VM wa thrown out ..
Now again, the constitution says that VM enjoys EQUAL STATUS as
that of JGM .. SO, isn't it an anti-national act when somebody
opposes VM ?? Please answer.
> > > The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> > > worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> > > claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> > > They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> > > as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
> >
> > This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
> > naional and intolerant..
>
> Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
> that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
> religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
> they call it "idolatory."
>
> That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
> the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
> sing it.
What is wrong in "deifying" India, if that was the spirit which sparked
of the National movement? Does that mean NMuslims will object to the
freedom movement as a whole ?? You are talking nonsense, buddy.
Friend, why did you delete all the remaing stuff that I wrote ? I asked,
on the same ground, WHY DON'T the MUslims oppose the National EMblem
of India and the 'Satyameva Jayate' in it ??? VM is not from any
religious
scripture, but 'Satyameva Jayate' is from Upanishads.
DO they have the courage to do this ??? If at all they do, won't
you consider that an anti-national act ???
Please answer this, if you want to continue the debate.
-Sankara Narayanan
>
> Uday Reddy
Uday S. Reddy
Sankara Narayanan <san...@vnet.ibm.com> writes:
> Most part of Shivaramu's article quoted by me, contained facts
> and quotes from many newspapers, magazines and some books...
> It is just a compilation, nicely arranged to bring out the
> various phases thru' which the controversey went thru'.
> There is very less of views and opinions in that article.
> If you think that even the quotations are altered, you are
> free to refer to all the archives for their validity !
I am not contesting the quotes that Shivaramu gives. I don't have any
reason to suspect foul-play. But, I have plenty of reasons to suspect
bias. And, such bias gets exhibited in interpretation of the facts,
in selective presentation of evidence etc. For instance, Shivaramu's
extract claimed that Mohmd. Ali complained that *songs* were against
his religion. But, A Sircar pointed out that his complaint was about
*bowing* to Motherland (implicit in VM). There is a signficant
difference between the two.
> BTW< what makes you think there are ideological colours ??? The
> article presented the info about both the songs in an impartial
> manner.. IS it because, by any chance you are trying to look at
> with coloured glasses ?
It is my right to question everything I read, color or no color.
Are you questioning my right to question? If so, please say so and I
will stop reading your posts.
>
> I agree to you here.. In fact the secularism practised in India is
> a misnoker. Selcularism means (as per OXford English Dictionary) the
> disassociation of any aspects of religion from any part of politics
> or education..
>
> But INdia has so many religious holidays etc... So what is practised
> in the garb of secularism the age-old respect and tolerance for
> all relgions ie. sarva-dharma-sama-bhava foster over centuries by
> the Rishis and great men of Hindu religion..
I don't think there is any point in arguing what the word "secularism"
means. But, we understand correctly what the Indian idea of
secularism means. Words matter little; ideas do.
> Given that, I feel a national anthem SHOULD praise the nation, not
> just it's geography, but every aspects of it's vibrant life, it's
> very soul .. and that's why in the initial phases of Freedom
> struggle, the entire nation accepted VM as the national anthem ..
> ad please note that VM spread thru' the whole nation naturally
> with the spreading of the Swadeshi movement.. and was already
> in the hearts of millions as a symbol of nationalism.
I have nothing against VM. But, I believe the argument is about JGM,
not VM. It is true that JGM does not praise the land, at least not
directly, but I see little problem in that. One could, if one wishes,
interpret the Bharata-Bhagya-Vidhaata as being personified in the land
of India and regard it as praising the land. The song is certainly
open to such an interpretation, though it doesn't require it.
>
> Bharat-Bhagya-Bidhata means 'Ruler of India's Destiny'. If this title
> perfectly suited somebody in those days,it was none other
> than the BRitish King , right ?
>
> (This doen't mean I'm saying he wrote it in praise of the King, I still
> feel it was in praise of God)
I prefer not to translate it into English to understand its meaning;
the metaphors can get corrupted in the translation. Vidhata,
a derivative of Vidhi, is certainly a supernatural concept in Indian
thinking. It is not a Ruler. I see no reference to the King here.
> LInking Anandmath and VM itself is not appropriate.. Bankim authored
> VM as an independant song first and then incorporated it into his
> novel... It should be noted that nobody wanted ANandmath to be
> declared as a National Novel !So, VM should judged independently as
> a song in itself.
Since I don't know about Anandmath, I will defer this question to the
experts on the matter. But, I appreciate your quotation. It is
beautiful and moving.
> Congress and it's leardes buried all the good things and the
> spirit of the national movement after independance and that's
> why VM wa thrown out ..
I disagree with your interpretation. I haven't seen any Congress
leaders disrespect VM. In fact, your own quotes show the high regard
in which Nehru held it. He preferred JGM for the anthem for pragmatic
reasons.
> Now again, the constitution says that VM enjoys EQUAL STATUS as
> that of JGM .. SO, isn't it an anti-national act when somebody
> opposes VM ?? Please answer.
And, what is meant "opposing" VM?
> > Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
> > that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
> > religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
> > they call it "idolatory."
> >
> > That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
> > the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
> > sing it.
>
> What is wrong in "deifying" India, if that was the spirit which sparked
> of the National movement? Does that mean NMuslims will object to the
> freedom movement as a whole ?? You are talking nonsense, buddy.
>
> Friend, why did you delete all the remaing stuff that I wrote ? I asked,
> on the same ground, WHY DON'T the MUslims oppose the National EMblem
> of India and the 'Satyameva Jayate' in it ??? VM is not from any
> religious
> scripture, but 'Satyameva Jayate' is from Upanishads.
>
> DO they have the courage to do this ??? If at all they do, won't
> you consider that an anti-national act ???
>
> Please answer this, if you want to continue the debate.
So, I suppose this is the crux of the matter. Why should Muslims have
any problem with Vande Mataram? I have explained it as far as I am
able to understand, but it doesn't seem that my explanation has made
any difference to your perceptions. Hindus are prone to deifying
everything in the world, our parents, our teachers, the elements,
animals, trees, anything else we please. I am a Hindu and I have no
problem with that. Some other religions don't do such things, and
Islam, in particular, prohibits deifying anything including its own
prophet. So, I can understand why they can't deify their motherland.
If you can't, well... I tried.
I have no intention of going into the other spurious issues that you
raise.
Cheers,
Uday Reddy
Srabani Banerjee
N. Tiwari wrote:
[...]
> : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> : > daily.
>
> : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> : down people's throats. Why?
>
> What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> talked about is replacing one song by another.
> Schools already use JGM.
All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
your foot in your mouth, can you?
They could as well use
> VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
very irritating, to say the least.
Srabani
N. Tiwari
Srabani Banerjee (BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: [...]
: > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: > daily.
: In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
: down people's throats. Why?
What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
patriotism you are talking about. What is being
talked about is replacing one song by another.
Schools already use JGM. They could as well use
VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Soumitri Mukherjee
Srabani Banerjee wrote:
>
> N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> > : > daily.
> >
> > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> > : down people's throats. Why?
> >
> > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > Schools already use JGM.
>
> all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> your foot in your mouth, can you?
>
> > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
>
> your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> very irritating, to say the least.
>
> Srabani
Excuse me for butting in, but by the word 'schools' perhaps Mr. Tiwari
meant 'many schools', just not all schools. Should one vent so much
anger just because of such a semantic misunderstanding? Or was it
because Mr. Tiwari's response to your 'simple polite' inquiry started
with " What nonsense"? :)
Anyhow I also believe that no brand of patriotism should be forced down
people's throats to make them more patriotic than whatever patriotic
feelings come naturally to them with their own
knowledge-and-understandings.
---soumitri
N. Tiwari
: [...]
: > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: > : > daily.
: >
: > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
: > : down people's throats. Why?
: >
: > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
: > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
: > talked about is replacing one song by another.
: > Schools already use JGM.
: All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
: all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
: your foot in your mouth, can you?
Did I say that. I think however, most of the schools
do that. Guess whose foot and whose mouth are we talking
about.
: They could as well use
: > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
: I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
: your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
: very irritating, to say the least.
So, it is MY brand of idiocy that irritates you. Note your
own words. MY brand of irritates Sushri Srabani Banerjee.
There is one simple solution. Please put my name, in your
kill file. That way, you will remain unexposed to MY brand
of idiocy. And of course, you could revel in alternate brands
of idiocy. BTW, your this singular post reminds me of another
of those enlighthened posters on sci and scb. And incidentally
his initials are also SB. He also uses terms like "did not expecy
you to understand", or "my brand of idiocy".
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Supratik Das
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Srabani Banerjee wrote:
> N. Tiwari wrote:
> > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > Schools already use JGM.
> All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
> all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> your foot in your mouth, can you?
That is precisely the point. Not all schools make students sing the
national anthem e.g. in our school we sung songs from the Book of Psalms
but never the national anthem. We should make our children sing the
national anthem as they do in most countries. Otherwise we will have the
repeated experiences of Indians sitting around when their national anthem
is being played. In fact there are millions of Indians who don't know that
their national anthem is being played and that they should pay respect to
it. This is why most Indians do not develop national feelings because it
is not nurtured. We are not talking of force here as in Communist
countries who follow the same garbage ideology as Nalinaksha. Neither am I
talking of useless pseudo-intellectuals like Nalinaksha but of the common
Indian. Nalinaksha and friends may in the meantime sing praises of Stalin.
> I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
> your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> very irritating, to say the least.
I find this very irritating as well. Because what you think as normal we
find as idiotic and vice-versa. I think Nachiketa is right at least on
this occassion. I am aware that Bengalies have existed on extreme poles.
We have produced the best patriots and the worst traitors. Of course the
leftists belong to the last category. Hence, your problem with nationalism
is understandable. BTW, Nalinaksha has openly said he believes in Bengali
nationalism, in which case I was wondering whether they would make people
sing national anthems in their fantasy state of Bengal and what would
happen to millions of Gurkhas, Biharis, Doars people, Santhals who don't
want to sing 'their' song?
BTW what exactly is wrong with singing the national anthem. After all you
guys sing 'Shilpi Songrami Paul Robson.........' in almost every party
meeting.
> Srabani
Supratik
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: On previous occasssions when we debated this, I had asked you
: a)Whether these Newspapers are available in Virginia Poly, in which case
: I would ask for an interlibrary loan.
No they are not. However, you could get them from Calcutta.
: b)whether these quotes of Newspaper reports are from a book and in that
: case I wanted a fuller reference.
Yes they are from a book. I do not have a fuller reference.
: Regarding my contacts in India they have more pressing responsibilities
: than to go searching for a newspaper report.
Then so be it. BT: Same here.
: I have re-read Arnab's post. His post says the following:
: a) There was a request to Rabindranath to write a song welcoming the king.
: b)Rabindranath could not produce such a song. One day in his inspiration
: he wrote a poem on Bharata-Bhagya-Bidhata. In his mind the poem was to
: the glorious destiny of India. He picturised this destiny as a deity.
: c)He gives this song to "National commission" thinking that it might make
: them happy. [It was not very clear whether this commission was meant to
: celebrate Kings visit or whether this was Congress.
: d) The song was NOT SUNG in Delhi Durbar because it was not considered to
: be full of sufficient praise.
: So the only thing that comes out of this quote was that there was a
: request to Rabindranath to write a poem welcoming the king.
: Jana-Gana-Mana was addressed to the Indian destiny and Not to the king
: George (This is as per Rabindranath's own testimony which both Shivaramu
: (who is he by the way) and Dutta and Robinson mentions).
Now please re-read that post again. IN fact, his post tells
the very same things, that others have have claimed on the
basis of their readings of ShivaRamu's book. However,
you have repackaged the post of Arnab:
This is what he wrote, from his reading of RNT's biography.
a) The author's of biography have a feeling that the song WAS
written for king.
b) INC asked RNT to write a song to that effect.
c) INC produced a song next morning. However, he said something
like: This is for God (not destiny which you casually slipped
in). But you could recycle it for your purpose.
d) The song WAS sung at INC session in praise of king. (Not at
Durbar, because it WAS NOT PATRIOTIC ENUF. (The singing of
song is not mentioned in Arnab's post. However, the newspapers
alluded to it. The song BEING NOT PATRIOTIC ENUF is mentioned
in Arnab's post).
My interpretation: The opinion of Brits that songs was NOT
patriotic enuf, is imo itself a testimony that the song was
written for King bhakti. However, it was not meet the expectations
of Brits.
Finally, Nalinaksha, I really wonder about your abilities
to reformulate the existant to suit your ideological goals.
For instance, you by implying that RNT's song was written in
honor of deity (which was destiny) is one good example
of that. And such "facts" repeated 1000 times will become
facts indeed. However, what will happen in the end will
be that RNT will come out as an idiot. People, who will
believe in your "facts" will complain:
"Look, here is this person writing a song about India's
bhagya vidhata, and then calls that vidhata of India
is a God by the name of destiny. So, destiny is India's destiny".
Suggestion: Be more careful.
: : Still further, this song was sung in the INC session, in
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : praise of king. I am quite sure that Arnab's ref. might
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: How do you conclude this? Was there a public announcement before the song
: was sung saying something like "Now our poet Rabindranath will sing a
: special composition in honour of His Exellency the King"? Even the
: Newspaper reports(?) quoted by you say nothing more then that a song by
: Rabindranath was sung at the INC session!.
You seem to selectively chose your own versions or facts. Read
the "newspaper reports". They say that the song was sung in
praise of king. Or is this a habit you got from your readings
of Sarkar et al.
: : b) To complain, whine and then ask me to shut up, as you
: : did on a previous occasion.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: No, I am merely asking you to provide the reference to Shivaramu's book
: and tell us his credentials and how far the compare with the credentials
: of say Sumit Sarkar.
Perhaps better. BTW,
it is not only Shivramu's story. Arnab mentions one more
story.
--------------------------------------------
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
