Jog, JogKauns etc
R. P. Harshavardhan
My 2 cents on Jog JogKauns
Aarati Ankalikar in her JogKauns frequently takes the
SGgS phrase. So it may not be as unusual.
I shall check some other recordings I have including
Veena S. But I am quite sure that this is not at all
uncommon
Later
Harsh
Arijit Mahalanabis
>ari...@math.psu.edu (Arijit Mahalanabis) writes:
>
>
>Namashkar, Arijit.
>
>>I guess the real test is whether the artist sings S G (S) g S, versus
>>S G g S.
>
>"Real test" of what?
>
Namashkaar Rajan,
I was referring to our preconceived notions of what Raga Jog should sound
like when I used the phrase real test. Let's face facts, we collectively
have a set of preconceived notions about what a raga should sound like.
Competant musicians stick to these notions. The really great ones break
these notions without destroying the raga itself in the process.
>The thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the treatment accorded
>the two gandhars via the meend that is the sui generis of Raga Jog.
>
>>The two feel entirely different and should not be considered
>>the same.
>
>But is the slide on the latter (S G g S) effected directly or via a meend?
>If it is direct, it should be a fairly awkward (and unaesthethic) feeling.
>Even in the case of S G (S) g S that you cite, the meend is indispensible.
>The "key element" that you allude to below should be the meend. Jasraj
>does it quite beautifully. So does HChaurasia.
>
>
Agreed, meend is the essential element in the treatment of the Gandhars.
However, I must now raise a red flag and disagree with you that the direct
descent from G to g would seem unaesthetic. Of course, this is purely
subjective, and in some sense, going directly from G to g seems to go
against the grain of Hindustani music itself (how may cases of chromatic
ragas can we find in Hindustani music except maybe Lalit? Even then, the
argument is made that Tivra Madhyam of Lalit very closely approximates
the frequency of Pancham). However, I feel a direct descent, if used in
the proper context and the proper proportion, can add great lustre to the
rendition. Indeed, our Carnatic brethren use such an approach with great
effect in Naatai, or Vaagadeeshwari or other ragas, where the Gandhars
are juxtaposed.
Again, purely opinionated drivel on my part. Take it for what it's worth.
Bottom line, I agree, meend is the essential element that should have
been pointed out.
Regards,
Arijit.
WARVIJ
>>I guess the real test is whether the artist sings S G (S) g S, versus
>S G g S. The two feel entirely different and should not be considered
>the same. My guess is the majority of artists sing the former, rather
>than the latter, which would seem to go against the normally accepted
>structures of Jog and its derivatives. From what I've heard, "(S) g"
>is always part and parcel of Jog, whether it is S G m (S) g S, or the
>phrase under discussion here. If this key element is missing, maybe we
>should raise some eyebrows. Otherwise, I don't see the big deal between
>singing S G M (S) g S and S G (S) g S.
>PS: Incidentally, anybody notice Amir Khansahab's Jog, and the little
>tricks he plays with enharmonic spelling, and then pulling in Shuddh
>Nishadh in the uttaranga of the madhya saptak? Hmmmm.....
According to my guru (who always advised that ANYBODY's opinion, incl. his
own, should be taken with a grain of salt), Jog is a relatively recent
raga derived from the somewhat more ephemeral melody Tilang. Some singers
are comfortable using the shuddh nishad only in ascent, while others may
feel somewhat less constrained (I've certainly heard Tilang performances
where the two nishads are mixed very freely). The Komal Ga is sometimes
taken directly from the shuddh swara by some artists; this has not yet
crystallized to become an actual separate prakar of the raga, however; it
must be construed as a performance mannerism particular to the musician.
What my guru said, simply, was "If you can make it sound good, then it's
correct!" Of course, learning to make it sound good can take decades....
Warren Senders
Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan
|> Arijit Mahalanabis writes:
|>
|> feel somewhat less constrained (I've certainly heard Tilang performances
|> where the two nishads are mixed very freely). The Komal Ga is sometimes
|> Warren Senders
Is it true that the nishadas in carnatic "brindAvana sArangA" is used
freely too? I used to think it takes tivra nishada in the aarohanam and
komal nishada in the avarohanam. In a concert by Unnikirshnan in his
recent tour, he used a malhArish or bahArish "n N s" (Ni2 Ni3 Sa) which
I had never heard in brindAvana sArangA. The accompanying violinsist
(MA Sundaresan) also continued to stress this usage. In T N Seshagopalan's
rendition of dIkshitar's "soundara rajam" in brindAvani, he goes
"Sa Ni Dha Pa" using Dha3 (equivalent to komal Ni, in place of Ni2)
in his kalpana swaras. Is this type of prayogam allowed in the
hindustani "brindAvani" or whatever the equivalent is?
Subu
Arijit Mahalanabis
I guess the real test is whether the artist sings S G (S) g S, versus
S G g S. The two feel entirely different and should not be considered
the same. My guess is the majority of artists sing the former, rather
than the latter, which would seem to go against the normally accepted
structures of Jog and its derivatives. From what I've heard, "(S) g"
is always part and parcel of Jog, whether it is S G m (S) g S, or the
phrase under discussion here. If this key element is missing, maybe we
should raise some eyebrows. Otherwise, I don't see the big deal between
singing S G M (S) g S and S G (S) g S.
Arijit.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>In article <3tf92v$k...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> ha...@wam.umd.edu (R. P. Harshavardhan) writes:
>>
>>Aarati Ankalikar in her JogKauns frequently takes the
>>SGgS phrase. So it may not be as unusual.
Namashkar, Arijit.
>I guess the real test is whether the artist sings S G (S) g S, versus
>S G g S.
"Real test" of what?
The thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the treatment accorded
the two gandhars via the meend that is the sui generis of Raga Jog.
>The two feel entirely different and should not be considered
>the same.
But is the slide on the latter (S G g S) effected directly or via a meend?
If it is direct, it should be a fairly awkward (and unaesthethic) feeling.
Even in the case of S G (S) g S that you cite, the meend is indispensible.
The "key element" that you allude to below should be the meend. Jasraj
does it quite beautifully. So does HChaurasia.
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
Arijit Mahalanabis
I would guess that the answer to this question is mired in the same troubles
faced in looking at Jog's use of the two Gandhars. From my own limited
experience, I believe that n N S is not part of the usual swaroop of
Brindavani. I have, at least, not come across this phrase in any rendition.
Also, I believe that originally, Brindavani, as rendered in Carnatic music
only contained Kaisiki Nishadha, which would make it structurally, very
similar to Madhyamavati (in fact, identical, if we make the mistake of
going only by aarohana and avrohana). I believe the difference lay in the
emphasis of the uttaranga sancharas in Brindavani. Any further comments on
this by more knowledgable folk will be much appreciated. At any rate,
if one looks at "Shreeranga Puravihara" for example, I think it becomes
clear that Kakali Nishadha did not play a role in the raga, at least at
the time of its composition.
Regards,
Arijit.
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The seven most beautiful sounds O-| O |
in life: | |-O
Sa,Re,Ga,Ma,Pa,Dha,Ni. | O |
=====
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Arijit Mahalanabis |||||
e-mail: AXM...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU |||||
MAHA...@CSE.PSU.EDU |||||
ARI...@MATH.PSU.EDU / ||| \
MAHA...@CRAYOLA.CSE.PSU.EDU / ||| \
ARI...@INGRAM.IE.PSU.EDU | --- |
\_______/
URL: http://www.math.psu.edu/arijit/
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Lakshminarayana
There is a discussion about the kaakali nishadha prayogam in Brindhaavana
Saaranga. Arijit observes that there need not be much emphasis on Ni3
to bring out the colour of Brindhaavana Saaranga. He says that there is
no Ni3 prayogam in " Sree Ranga pura vihara ". My God! Even at the start
of the keerthanai Ni3 becomes evident. Pa Ri Sa Sa Sa Ni3 Sa Ni3 Sa Ni2 Pa;
Is that not how the keerthanai goes? I think Ni3 is absolutely essential
to play the nuances of Brindhaavana Saaranga. In fact, the beauty of Brin-
dhaavana Saaranga lies with its kaakali nishadam. Also, Arijit made a
comparison between Brindhaavana Saaranga and Madhyamavathi. He says that
both these raagams have structural similarity ( he assumes that Ni2 is used
in arohanam too ) and that the difference is brought out by differential
usage of utharaanga swaras.The beauty of Madhyamaavathi lies with its
rishabham. While we give a gamakam to the chathusrathi rishabham which
often goes to encompass the heights of shatsruthi rishabham in Madhyamavathi,
we don't use such a gamakam in Brindhaavana Saaranga. Similarly there is no
gamakam to Ni2 in Brindhaavana Saaranga, but, it is absolutely important in
Madhyamaavathi. So, what makes these structurally akin raagas, disimilar in
the tune is the way we handle their swaras with or without gamakams. One
another example for this kind of situation is Kedara Gowlai and Desh. Both
of them are janyas of Harikambodhi. Both have the same structure ( aarohanam
Sa Ri Ma Pa Ni Sa; aavarohanam Sa Ni Da Pa Ma Ga Ri Sa ). But in Desh the
aarohana nishadha is Ni3 instead of Ni2. This is the only major difference.
But, when you sing, look at the difference between these two raagas! There
seems to be nothing in common between them. It is because Kedara Gowlai is a
highly gamaka oriented raaga, while the way we handle the swaras in desh
is totally different.
Subu has remarked that he heard unnikrishnan use Pa Ni2 Ni3 Sa in Brindaavana
Saaranga and Seshagopalan use Sa Ni Da Pa in the same raga.I think that the
prayogam Pa Ni2 Ni3 Sa is allowed in Brindaavana Saaranga. The rigid grammer
of carnatic music seems to be quite flexible in some cases allowing such
lapses. One another example would be naatai. Though Naatai which is a janya
raaga of Chala Naatai in actuallity does not have Da, musicians at times
while singing Naatai find fancy in bringing out its occaional nuances
by using phrases like Pa Da Ni Sa. Talking about Pa Ni2 Ni3 Sa in Brindaava-
na Saaranga, one cinema music director made a lilting tune with this
prayogam in the pallavi itself ( "thotilil thodangidum thalatu" in the movie
nilave malarae ).
- Srirangam.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Namashkaar Rajan,
>I was referring to our preconceived notions of what Raga Jog should sound
>like when I used the phrase real test. Let's face facts, we collectively
>have a set of preconceived notions about what a raga should sound like.
Not always true. Some of us have a better idea of what a Raga should
NOT sound like. Usually we will all agree on the kernel but leave room
for variations across gharana borders and also allow for the artists'
indiosyncrasies in treatment of a Raga. Shri Senders has articulated
this point quite well in another post.
>Competant musicians stick to these notions. The really great ones break
>these notions without destroying the raga itself in the process.
Do not underestimate the abilities of the "really great ones" to
destroy notions and break Ragas:-)
>Agreed, meend is the essential element in the treatment of the Gandhars.
>However, I must now raise a red flag and disagree with you that the direct
>descent from G to g would seem unaesthetic. Of course, this is purely
>subjective, and in some sense, going directly from G to g seems to go
>against the grain of Hindustani music itself (how may cases of chromatic
>ragas can we find in Hindustani music except maybe Lalit? Even then, the
I think you have misunderstood my point. I was talking about the gandhars
in the specific case of Raga Jog, where I feel strongly that the meend
is what gives it its body and personality.
Chromatic use of notes in general is not unaesthetic at all. Au contraire,
in light music this device is often used to enhance the beauty of the
phrase. Even in Ragadhari music it is done quite often in Ragas other
than Lalit (or its derivatives). Bandishes in Raga Bihag frequently
use the PmMG combination. Raga Nand employs the reverse, i.e., G M..m P
quite beautifully. In the Malhars, often we have the two nishad juxtaposed.
And so on.
>argument is made that Tivra Madhyam of Lalit very closely approximates
>the frequency of Pancham). However, I feel a direct descent, if used in
>the proper context and the proper proportion, can add great lustre to the
>rendition. Indeed, our Carnatic brethren use such an approach with great
>effect in Naatai, or Vaagadeeshwari or other ragas, where the Gandhars
>are juxtaposed.
See above.
>Again, purely opinionated drivel on my part.
Opinionated drivel is much better than what comes out of the all-too-
familiar panderers of fake humility (and I have seen a lot of them here).
Nice to exchange this with you, Arijit.
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
>Take it for what it's worth.
Arijit Mahalanabis
>
>There is a discussion about the kaakali nishadha prayogam in Brindhaavana
>Saaranga. Arijit observes that there need not be much emphasis on Ni3
>to bring out the colour of Brindhaavana Saaranga. He says that there is
>no Ni3 prayogam in " Sree Ranga pura vihara ". My God! Even at the start
>of the keerthanai Ni3 becomes evident. Pa Ri Sa Sa Sa Ni3 Sa Ni3 Sa Ni2 Pa;
>Is that not how the keerthanai goes? I think Ni3 is absolutely essential
I was basing my statement of MSS's rendition of the kirthana. Listen
carfully to the opening phrases, and you will see my point very clearly.
Secondly, I'm not denying the importance of N3 in Brindavani. I'm only
stating that this swara was not part of Brindavani when it entered
Carnatic music, or so the claim goes. It is indeed not even my claim,
hence I don't pretend to have much evidence to support the claim. I've
heard Carnatic musicians render Brindavani in both manners, using N2 only
as well as N2 and N3.
>to play the nuances of Brindhaavana Saaranga. In fact, the beauty of Brin-
>dhaavana Saaranga lies with its kaakali nishadam. Also, Arijit made a
A technical point, really, not worth noting, but, doesn't the beauty reside
in the contrast created by BOTH nishadhas? How can N3 work its magic if it
cannot contrast itself against N2?
Thanks for the enlightening discussion on the use of gamakas to differentiate
Brindavani from Madhyamavati.
With regards,
WARVIJ
I've never heard a performance of Brindabani Sarang where the two nishads
are mixed in this fashion (as I've heard in Tilang); I think there is a
Sarang prakar somewhere that allows this but I can't remember it offhand.
Occasionally we will hear a lengthy nyasa on shuddh nishad followed by
komal nishad, but careful listening always reveals a grace note of shadja
interpolated (a real "daad-extraction" trick if ever I heard one).
Tilang does show chhaya of Sarang in uttaranga, but it is one element of
many that can be used here, for Tilang is essentially a format for thumri
improvisation.
Warren Senders
WARVIJ
>>>>(how may cases of chromatic
ragas can we find in Hindustani music except maybe Lalit?
Malhars, Kedar, Bihag, Nand... I have even heard (and sung) a bada khyal
in Behagada ("Manuwa Socha Socha" in vilambit ektal) where, in antara, the
shuddh nishad is followed by komal nishad without interpolated grace notes
-- and it's absolutely riveting; the high point of the entire piece.
If it sounds good, it is good.
Warren Senders
KEDAR S NAPHADE
Somebody mentioned that Jog was derived from Tilang in which case the above seems to be a valid usage.. however very few singers sing jog with both nishaads. I was taught Jog with two nishaads by my guruji Shri Tulsidasji
Borkar and I believe he had learnt it from the scholars Pt. K.G. Ginde and Pt. S.C.R. Bhatt , though I may be wrong there..
However, many performers are very emphatic in claiming that Jog has to be sung with only one NishAd ..
Comments ?
Regards,
Kedar
________________________________________________________________________________
All problems of existence are essentially problems of harmonium.
Rajan P. Parrikar
I didn't pose the above question.
r
Arijit Mahalanabis
>In article <3tjepn$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> war...@aol.com (WARVIJ) writes:
>>Rajan Parrikar writes:
>>>>>>(how may cases of chromatic
>>ragas can we find in Hindustani music except maybe Lalit?
>>
>
>I didn't pose the above question.
I believe I asked the question, and I've since sent private mail to Warren
to discuss the matter further. Hope that clarifies the issue.
Arijit.
Ramasubramanian Ramakrishnan
has a flat tivra Ni. I am sure most of us are aware that the carnatic
prayogam has an oscillating Ni (averaging somewhere between Ni2 and Ni3).
In Balamurali's rendition of his thillana in brindavani, he halts at a
flat nishada at one point which is definitely in between Ni2 and Ni3.
I do not believe this was unintentional.
Subu
Srini Pichumani
Arijit, you are right about this issue of N2/N3 in rAga
brndAvani. brndAvani is sung/played with the N2 both
in the ArohaNam and the avarohaNam. The intonation of
the N however is higher in pitch in a few spots, in
passing ... justifying its classification as a "bhAShAnga"
rAga, under the 22nd rAgAnga rAga shrI, in the Dikshitar
tradition. This is how Subbarama Dikshitar classifies
BrndAvani in his magnus opus Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini,
where he gives the grand and majestic composition "saundara
rAjam As'raye" of Muttuswami Dikshitar in this rAga in
notation.
Identifying the higher intonation of the N with the svara
N3 makes for simplicity, but also results in much unnecessary
explicitness, and a change in the ArohaNam. This is precisely
what has occured in various light pieces in this rAga where
there is a liberal use of N3.
This definitely takes away quite a bit of the majesty
of the rAga and contributes to a very flitting mood, IMO.
And is very similar to what has happened to Khamas, where
again there is a liberal use of N3...
-Srini.
ps: Additionally, there is an alpa or light use of G2 in this
rAga in phrases like R2 G2 R2, S G2 G2 ... if you have heard
"rangapura vihAra", one spot where you may hear this is the
phrase "vAmAnka gata sItA" corresponding to the word gata ...
and in the phrase "ambudhi garva nigraham" in the word garva,
in saundara rAjam Ashraye...
Here again, there has been some change in this century.
The Dikshitar scholar Justice T.L.Venkatarama Iyer writes,
somewhat apologetically, that the G2 use may even be avoided
without much detriment to rAga bhAva.
My guess is that TLV opined so, to avoid idle criticism of
the Dikshitar tradition wrt this rAga, since there is no
doubt from Subbarama Dikshitar's book that the G2 has a
legitimate place...
pps: Yes, as of late, there has been a further twist to
this N2/N3 issue with a "N2 N3 S" being thrown in - which
makes it even more jarring.