Laya

[Asha]

Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
"beats per second"?

[Havanur]

On Oct 30, 2:55 am, Asha <asha.sang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> "beats per second"?

The "norm" as I have heard - madhyalaya is one beat per heartbeat,
vilambit and drut are multiples thereof.

Havanur

[C Parthapratim]

Heart beats 72 times a minute. That's not Madhyalay even for Teental, rather is definitely on the Drut side of the line. The rough estimate for Vilambit is 45 beats per minute or less, that is 1.33 seconds/beat. Drut is distinctly recognizable at around 80 beats/minute, i.e. 5 (nearly) complete cycles of Teental in a minute. Madhyalay is located in the space in between these two, depending on the Raga, the style, the artist's personal traits etc. This norm is widely followed by the synthetic/electronic Tabla manufacturers like Radel etc.

[naniwadekar]

> Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> "beats per second"?

Checked against Bhimsen's LP of Shuddha Kalyan.
Vilambit: 12 beats in 33 seconds (ektaal)
Drut: Two cycles of teen-taal (32 beats) in approx 7 seconds,
so 250+ beats per minute.

- dn

[naniwadekar]

> Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> "beats per second"?
>

Checked against Bhimsen's LP of Shuddha Kalyan. He takes about 33
seconds over the 12 beats of one vilambit ektaal aavartan. Vilambit
can be somewhat faster than this speed, or slower. It is possible that
the norm for a vilambit ektaal aavartan is closer to 25-26 seconds
than 33 seconds. Drut rendition of the same Shuddha Kalyan recital
covers two teen-taal cyles (32 beats) in 7 seconds. While drut may
often be somewhat slower than this, BJ hasn't chosen any unusually
fast speed for it; and his drut covers 250+ beats per minute.

- dn


.
.

On Oct 30, 2:55 am, Asha <asha.sang...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> "beats per second"?

.

.

[Ravi]

On Oct 31, 10:49 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> > "beats per second"?
>

> Checked against Bhimsen's LP of Shuddha Kalyan. He takes about 33
> seconds over the 12 beats of one vilambit ektaal aavartan. Vilambit
> can be somewhat faster than this speed, or slower.

Today morning at my music class, when my Guruji was teaching vilambit
khayal, timed the teen taal vilambit (16 beats) in about 45 seconds.
He was teaching Malkauns "Peer na jaane" set to teen taal..

[Asha]

On Oct 31, 10:49 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a norm/range for various layas (vilambit, madhya,drut) in
> > "beats per second"?
>

> Checked against Bhimsen's LP of Shuddha Kalyan. He takes about 33
> seconds over the 12 beats of one vilambit ektaal aavartan. Vilambit
> can be somewhat faster than this speed, or slower. It is possible that
> the norm for a vilambit ektaal aavartan is closer to 25-26 seconds
> than 33 seconds. Drut rendition of the same Shuddha Kalyan recital
> covers two teen-taal cyles (32 beats) in 7 seconds. While drut may
> often be somewhat slower than this, BJ hasn't chosen any unusually
> fast speed for it; and his drut covers 250+ beats per minute.
>
> - dn
>
> .

so one vilambit ektaal aavartan in 25-26 mins covers approx. 28 beats-
per-min..

This is what I found at www.http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/laya.html

        ati-ati-drut            640 beats-per-min
        ati-drut                320 beats-per-min
        drut                    160 beats-per-min
        madhya          80 beats-per-min
        vilambit                 40 beats-per-min
        ati-vilambit           20 beats-per-min
        ati-ati-vilambit        10 beats-per-min


Quote
The table is an idealized breakdown of laya; however, the real world
is considerably more complex. For example the designations of ati
drut, ati vilambit, etc. are seldom heard among practicing musicians.
This tends to stretch the previous table so that there is no longer a
2-1 relationship between the various designations. To make matters
even more complex, it has been observed that vocalists use a slower
definition of time than instrumentalists (Gottlieb 1977a:41).
Furthermore the rhythmic concepts of the light and film musicians run
at a higher tempo but show a peculiar compression of scale.
Unquote

[C Parthapratim]

Yes, this rather reliable, though locating "Madhya" at 80 beats/min is a little overboard, though for most instrumentalists that would be the cut-off mark. BJ's Vilambit was never Vilambit in the true sense, apart from a handful of recordings like the Durbari one; moreover, the ektaal that was played with him was mostly the 24-matra variant, the Jhumra played with UK is the 28-matra variant, and hence if the observation of 24 beats/33 seconds or something similar is correct, then it boils down in the neighbourhood of 45beats/min norm. Amir Khan's Ati-Vilambit (56-beat Jhumra) sometimes took 64 seconds or more.

[naniwadekar]

On Oct 31, 3:03 am, C Parthapratim wrote:
> Yes, this rather reliable, though locating "Madhya" at 80 beats/min is a little overboard ...
>

To people following this thread now or in the future, please do ignore
Parthapratim's foolish talk. First the ass blurts that 'drut is
distinctly recognizable at around 80 beats/minute', then he calls a
table locating '160 beats per minute' rather reliable. A quick check
shows a famous LP using 250+ beats per second for drut. The range for
drut can be placed at 160 to 250 beats per minute. Gems like 'BJ's
Vilambit was never Vilambit in the true sense' and 'Bhimsen's ektaal
was mostly the 24-matra variant' from the imbecile Partha are also par
for course. How can anybody wallow in so much gibberish!

Have you heard the joke about a clueless performer (let's call him
Partha) telling tabla player to play vilambit teen-taal. The
mischievous tabla player, knowing that Partha can't tell Jhumra from
Dadra, plays ektaal instead. Oblivious to this, Partha tries to come
to sam after the 16th beat and manages it, sometimes on 14th beat,
sometimes on 19th beat. These are presumably 13-beat and 18-beat
variants of his teen-taal. Tabla player later calls it the most
challenging sangat he has ever offered.

Back to the discussion. Check that ti-ra-ki-Ta bols in Bhimsen's LP's
vilambit ektaal for Shuddha Kalyan are not unusually far-spaced at all
to call it '24-maatraa variant' or ati-vilambit. The table says ati-
vilambit would have about 20 beats per minute. I had never given this
matter any thought before, and would forget all these figures soon
enough, but '20 beats per minute for ati-vilambit' seems a fair
statement.

- dn

[C Parthapratim]

> Back to the discussion. Check that ti-ra-ki-Ta bols in Bhimsen's LP's
> vilambit ektaal for Shuddha Kalyan are not unusually far-spaced at all
> to call it '24-maatraa variant' or ati-vilambit. The table says ati-
> vilambit would have about 20 beats per minute. I had never given this
> matter any thought before, and would forget all these figures soon
> enough, but '20 beats per minute for ati-vilambit' seems a fair
> statement.
>
> - dn

He he he! And this comes from a freaking idiot who doesn't even know that while Vilambit Ektaal is of 48-beats sparsed out in a 4-4-4 manner, and is with a distinctly different theka, a 24-beat Ektal CANNOT be ati-vilambit!! All these 3 variants, 12-beat, 24-beat, and 48-beat ones of Ektaal have developed 3 different khada theka, apart from all other khanapuri. The 12 beat one itself have two different theka, one for Madhyalay/Vilambit, and another for Drut/Druta-Madhya. Listen to Sharafat Hussein Khan's Puriya (concert) where he clearly states which theka (old/new=12/48) he prefers. I have never heard any BJ studio recording where 48-beat stuff was played, but in some concerts he did sing to that rhythm. Many BGAK recordings are there with this one, and such 48-beat avartans take a little over 1 minute, and that is Vilambit. Never heard any Ati-Vilambit in reality, though Amir Khan Sa'ab and also Abdul Waheed Khan Sa'ab sometimes skipped one Sam in 56-matra cycle and thus made it 112-beat cycle, though that doesn't mean much. Ati-Vilambit is a matter of style, not tempo.

However, I don't care what the table says about Drut/Ati-Drut etc., didn't even read those data, I am talking about Vilambit only, which according to this table was 40 beats/min and my preference was and still is 45 beats/min. And @-dn, FYI, The Laya in Ektaal is not always picked up from Ti-ra-ki-ta spacing, the 48-beat Ektaal might even skip that bol, while in Vilambit Jhumra it can't just be skipped. Listen to Nissar Hussein Khan's Puriya Dhanesree (76 min), I don't who was on Tabla, but he seemed to have hated that bol altogether, he always did something else. In such a case, the lay is picked from the region of 'kat' bol located at 7th (of 12) or 25th (of 48)

Madhyalay is, I'd reiterate, something very special and personal, and it doesn't exist for many. BJ was the King of Madhayalay, but his kingdom is perennially under-populated.

-Partha (Sam-on-17th-beat) :D ROTFL!

[C Parthapratim]

A little annexure: About -dn's sick joke -- if indeed the tabla plays Vilambit Jhumra with a 16-beat bandish, I'll still find the Sam at the end of his 2-cycles, on the 113-th beat; but in the mean time I'll be singing Bhairavi, and -dn will still think that I am singing Bilaskhani, which he thinks is a Todi. LOL!!

[naniwadekar]

"C Parthapratim" <c.parthapratim @ gmail.com> wrote :
>
> the 48-beat Ektaal might even skip ti-ra-ki-ta
>

LOL. Moron Partha, so you have heard 48-beat ektaal which skipped
ti-ra-ki-ta bol. As I told you, sometimes your tabla player plays teen-taal
when you ask him to play ektaal, sure in the knowledge that it won't confuse
the chimpanzee in you. You need to possess at least basic intelligence
before you may get confused by things. What you thought was 48-beat ektaal
was actually 3 cycles of teentaal with no ti-ra-ki-Ta. Or what you thought
to be 48-beat ektaal could have been 42 beats of Dadra or 61 beats of
Deepchandi.

Utpatti-sthiti-laya also features 'laya', and there certainly was never any
formation of good sense in your brain, and if at all there was a bit of it
it has long achieved the state of 'laya' in dramatically drut-fashion.

- dn



"C Parthapratim" <c.parthapratim @ gmail.com> wrote :
in message
news:21633327.876.1320065113887.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prgt40...

[C Parthapratim]

ROTFL!! What a public display of knowledge!! your mail only shows that you have never heard most of the masters, or didn't understand what you heard. Actually you never read what is written by other people; go back to my mail and try to understand (I don't have much hope though) what I wrote there, and please listen to the recording I mentioned there. Someone from the audience actually complained aloud (were it you?) that Tabla is playing a non-standard theka without the expected bol - and NHK, not the Tabliya, explained something about it. However, this was the precise reason why I wrote 'laya' in response to your profundity -- when music is at your mercy -- it's 'laya' indeed!

[Abhik Majumdar]

> All these 3 variants, 12-beat, 24-beat, and 48-beat ones of Ektaal have developed 3 different khada theka

While there is indeed a kernel of validity to what you say, I feel you
are reading too much into this. Khanapuri excluded, the difference in
theka is minimal. Moreover, it can be conjectured that some
differences have been incorporated as useful markers to indicate to
the vocalist which part of the avartan is being played. I'd say the
Na---na-na- of the sixth matra of Vilambit Ektal is a good example of
this.

> The 12 beat one itself have two different theka, one for Madhyalay/Vilambit, and another for Drut/Druta-Madhya.

Surely an overstatement once again. Apart from compressing Tirakita
into Traka, the other differences are both minor and inconstant, or at
least non-standardised.

> Listen to Sharafat Hussein Khan's Puriya

There are more than one, surely. I have a three-hour long recording,
and another one of 90 minutes (in tape format). Which one do you refer
to, and at which point in time?

> Amir Khan Sa'ab and also Abdul Waheed Khan Sa'ab sometimes skipped one Sam in 56-matra cycle and thus made it 112-beat cycle

I disagree. Merely skipping a sam (by which you presumably mean not
singing the mukhda at the sam) does not mean that the avartan itself
has doubled in size. Not singing the mukhda is quite usual when
singing at not-so-ati vilambit laya. I remember coming across an
atrocious Hamsadhvani by Raza Ali Khan. It was set to moderately
vilambit ada-chautal, and he made it a point to sing the mukhda at the
arrival of every single sam. Can't tell you what a torture it was.

> I am talking about Vilambit only, which according to this table was 40 beats/min and my preference was and still is 45 beats/min.

A long time ago I had tried my hand at writing a tabla software. After
timing a few pre-recorded avartans, I arrived at something between 10
and 12 beats a minute for at-vilambit laya (say, Amir Khan-style
Jhoomra), that is, if ti-ra-ki-ta counts for one beat. Going by this
calculation, 40 beats a minute makes for two beats every three
seconds, certainly a pretty brisk avartan. Amir Khan's HMV
Hamsadhvani might be around that mark.Personally I'd say that's well
within Madhyalaya parameters, regardless of what the label says. On
the other hand, if you take ti-ra-ki-ta as four beats, then this 40
BPM will translate to 10 BPM by my system of calculation, which lies
at the slower edge of ati-vilambit laya.

> The Laya in Ektaal is not always picked up from Ti-ra-ki-ta spacing, the 48-beat Ektaal might even skip that bol, while in Vilambit Jhumra it can't just be skipped. Listen to Nissar Hussein Khan's Puriya Dhanesree (76 min)

One freak instance does not a rule make. I'd attribute it to
obstreperous sangat more than anything else.

Abhik

[naniwadekar]

"Abhik Majumdar" wrote :

>
> Merely skipping a sam (by which you presumably mean not
> singing the mukhda at the sam) does not mean that the avartan itself
> has doubled in size.
>

In Parthapratim's world, skipping a sam doubles the size of the aavartan,
and skipping two consecutive teen-taal sam-s gives him 48-beat teen-taal
cycle. He started with the gem that 'drut is distinctly recognizable at
around 80 beats/minute' and then agreed with a table which suggests 160
drut-beats/minute, so it is impossible to make out what he might possibly
mean when he says anything whatever.

Partha is advised to shove up his ass all his Amir Khan, Bhimsen, Nisar
Hussain CDs, LPs and cassettes; he is also advised to skip parents' meetings
at his kid's school, else his talk will force the school to try to check
whether Partha himself can clearly understand a sample question-paper given
to 7-8 year old kids.

- dn

[C Parthapratim]

Drut/Jalad Ektaal is still Ektaal, no wonder it will follow the same rhythmic pattern on a broader sense. Now, if that theka goes as Dhin-Dhin NageteTe tun-na and so on - there is indeed no change apart from a compression. But, many a times it's also played as Dhin- na-na tun-na | kat-ta dha-ge tirakita among some other possible vriations, which makes it a different theka.

Skipping the sam necessitates not singing the mukhda, fine! But when the masters of their stature did that, they structured the entire 112-beat span as a complete whole, one usual technique of which being enveloping the Sam region in a silsilah or tan formation and thus dominating the theka completely, which makes it a 112-beat composition of phrases, irrespective of whatever the Tabla plays.

I am not a fan of Raza Ali Khan, and that is one of the reasons why. But then, he is nowhere near that level, and I doubt whether he or his likes ever sing a wholesome composition of phrases; the only composition they know about is the cheez, everything else is random, unstructured, formless, shapeless matrix of notes obtained by trial and error. No point in discussing such music.

I was talking about Sharafat Hussein's 90 minute Puriya, a lousily noisy version of which was aired by Sarangi.info in two parts. At the beginning of the bandish part, he stops the tabla and asserts "mujhe naya nahi chahiye, purana hi chahiye, baara matraa ke"! What was played afterwords was the skeletal 12-beat stuff scantily filled with khanapuri that made it sound like a caricature of the 24-matra theka.

If Ti-ra-ki-ta is one beat only, then our 40/45 beats per minute reduces to 10/11.25 beats per minute respectively. There is no contradiction here that we are talking about more or less the same tempo, though I doubt if in this lay Ti-ra-ki-ta can be clubbed together to make one beat only.

NHK instance is a freak instance, true, and was put up as a counter-example against the sweeping statement that tempo is always marked by the manner how that bol is spaced out.

I'd repeat, that we can measure and mark Vilambit and Drut, but Madhya is really very relative, dependent on so many factors, and for some people, Madhya itself is Vilambit enough, they wouldn't go any slower.

One can do an experiment here: at the same tempo of the Tabla beats, try singing only double speed taankari along with some silsilah/laykari and skip some mukhda in a Teental bandish, it will sound like a Madhyalay rendition, but when at the same tempo, the entire rendition is filled with 'chouduni' taan-toda, with little or no breathing space - it will sound Drut! Proving that - it's all about our conception of Ragdari.

[naniwadekar]

"C Parthapratim" wrote :

>
Skipping the sam necessitates not singing the mukhda, fine! But when the
masters of their stature did that, they structured the entire 112-beat span
as a complete whole, one usual technique of which being enveloping the Sam
region in a silsilah or tan formation and thus dominating the theka
completely, which makes it a 112-beat composition of phrases, irrespective
of whatever the Tabla plays.

>-----

Blah Blah Blah. The discussion is about 'beats per second', which is
irrespective of which masters of which stature use which techniques in
skipping the sam. Stay back after the school is over and other children have
gone home, and write 51 times :

Drut is NOT distinctly recognizable at around 80 beats/minute (irrespective
of whatever a clueless poster claims).

[Imnot Apadmashri]

Hm. This has developed into an interesting thread while I was looking
elsewhere.

80 beats is drut? At 80 BPM a teental cycle spans 12 seconds. I
don't recall hearing that laya except in instrumental, where it passes
for vilambit. Even 160 BPM (6-second teental), heard more often in
vocal, sounds madhyalaya-ish to me.

Of course, Partha lives in a different world.

DG

[C Parthapratim]

5-8 cycles per minute with Teental is favourited by many for singing what they call the "chhota khayal", Drut in other words; if you want I can give you a list of recordings from last century's music. Well yes, in my world, super-fast music is mostly unwelcome when speed is the only objective. I believe that most Ragas doesn't have any meaning left at that speed.

[naniwadekar]

> Well yes, in my world, super-fast music is mostly unwelcome when speed is
the only objective.

>----
In non-you world, your posts are mostly an object of ridicule, but that is
not the point.
You say: 'I can give you a list of (drut) recordings from last century's
music at 5-8 cycles per minute with Teental'. Plenty of music by last
century's acknowledged masters is on YouTube. Point to a few recordings
where drut teentaal is performed at 5 cycles per minute, speed at which drut
is allegedly 'distinctly recognizable'. If you can't do that, your claim
will be shown to be stupid. Bhimsen hasn't sung the chhota khayal on his
Shuddha Kalyan LP at any unusually fast speed and yet it comes to 250+ beats
per minute.

- dn



"C Parthapratim" wrote :

[C Parthapratim]

I'll upload the list here. Or, when I have time will upload the music directly, somewhere.

[C Parthapratim]

Meanwhile, I am posting sample tabla sounds with following links:

5 cpm (cycles/minute): https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5jp2ZJOYtZPNzBhNTBlODktMWRmMC00Y2M0LWEzMWYtN2RlODVhYzNmMzg5

8 cpm https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5jp2ZJOYtZPMmZmODk4NmMtNDkyZi00Y2YxLTgxNzMtYmJmMTZlOTQ3M2Rh

15 cpm (240 beats/minute) https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5jp2ZJOYtZPOTdkNmNjYzgtZGQxYy00YjQzLWFlNTQtNzE5YTE0MjI5MWVk

I hope the above links work.

Please note that the 8 cpm one is most comfortable zone for a chhota khayal, 15 cpm is not for every vocalist, and most artists would smother and smear all the taankari at this speed; not everybody is BJ. However, 5 cpm, while still belonging to the slower side, is just the cut-off mark when one starts to realize and distinguish the Drut phrases and taan/lay-kari, but is uncomfortable for most modern khayal singers who do not stick to the Nayaki composition.

I'll post associated recordings later on.

[C Parthapratim]

Sorry for multiple mails, but here is one interesting snippet I found on my computer, I have cut out the relevant piece only.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5jp2ZJOYtZPODQ2NGNlOWQtZGI2ZS00NTIxLWFjZjktYmEzMmRiMWY5NzM1

D V Paluskar's Puriya, from Madhya/Vilambit to the so-called Drut. Note that while on the first portion the Tabla takes almost 25s for one cycle, (also note the theka that it's a 32-beat Vilambit Teental) which makes it a 76.8 beats/minute tempo, on the second part the tabla switches to almost 16 cpm, but the speed of taankari doesn't change at all. The same phrases at same speed are being rendered. And that was my point that 76.8 bpm is a tempo fast enough for a vocalist to switch to the Drut mode of singing. However, the first part is more convenient for those who care for the complex movements of Puriya, while in the second part the structure tends to become more linear, flat, and repetitive. I couldn't find this recording on Youtube. :)

[naniwadekar]

"C Parthapratim" <c.parthapratim@ gmail.com> wrote :

>
> I hope the above links work.
>

Your arguments are silly in the extreme. There is no need to post tabla
clips at 5 teentaal cycles per minute (tcpm) or 15 tcpm when one can play
some YouTube clips readily of the actual vocal recitals and check the speeds
for vilambit and drut which vocalists prefer. There is nothing about 15 drut
teen-taal cycles per minute that only musicians of Bhimsen's stature could
handle. Bhimsen did not become Bhimsen by ramping up the speed of his
presentation; if anything, it is lesser musicians who sometimes try to sound
smart by singing at very fast clip.

> D V Paluskar's Puriya, from Madhya/Vilambit to the so-called Drut. Note
that while on the first portion the Tabla takes almost 25s for one cycle,
(also note the theka that it's a 32-beat Vilambit Teental) which makes it a
76.8 beats/minute tempo, on the second part the tabla switches to almost 16
cpm

>--------------

It is ektaal (not teentaal) with 25 seconds per cycle. So 2 seconds for a
beat and 30 beats per miute, which is pretty standard bada khayal (vilambit)
pace. If you insist on counting 24 maatraas in that ektaal cycle (a very
foolish thing to do, but let's play along), then your *vilambit* becomes 60
beats per minute. And madhya-laya would be faster (say 100 beats per
minute), and drut would have to be faster still. Yet you insist that 'Drut
is distinctly recognizable at around 80 beats/minute'. So your argument that
it is 24-beat vilambit ektaal in Paluskar's recital goes completely against
your stated speed of drut.

Let's check a recital by Gangubai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaJeupmwBJQ
From the sam around 21:32, one counts 13 cycles over the next 60ish seconds
at none-too-fast pace, and that comes to 200-210 beats per minute.
Palusakr's Puriya drut is also at the same pace, about 200 beats per minute.

In short, Partha's statement that 'Drut is distinctly recognizable at around
80 beats/minute' is quite stupid. And the explanation given at the
chandrakantha.com site is very nicely done.


- dn

[C Parthapratim]

Usual hogwash from Nani-the-barking-wadekar! Anyway ...

[Imnot Apadmashri]

On Nov 19, 3:17 pm, C Parthapratim <c.parthapra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Usual hogwash from Nani-the-barking-wadekar!

Your pigs must taste especially delicious if you wash them in stuff
like that. Do consider opening a specialty restaurant.

(And what do you yourself bathe in, I wonder... )

DG

[C Parthapratim]

Ha ha ha! My pigs are Vilambit enough to react to such stuff; usually they don't before turning into Salami cut at 16 TCPM :D

[Vivekanand P V]

Perfectly reliable. For some, vilambit may be little more sluggish
given the prevalent idiosyncrasies.

Incidentally, I think a popular madhyalaya would be 120bpm approx.

V

[naniwadekar]

"Vivekanand P V" <viveka...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> Incidentally, I think a popular madhyalaya would be 120bpm approx.
>

I think that is a fair statement.

Kumar Gandharva's LP release of Shree-Kalyan is set to Madhya-to-drut laya.
I would rather call it madhya-laya rather than drut, and it is about 160
beats per minute; but some vocalists may choose this pace for chhota khayal,
which is associated with drut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrbP2B4eBoc
.

Kumar Gandharva's madhya-laya rendition, at about 144 beats per minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiyVt5BYnAM&feature=related
.

Bilaskhani Todi by KG, explicitly marked to be at madhya-laya, has 8
teen-taal cycles per minute, so 128 beats per minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggfzBbODb0&feature=related

Vilayat Khan's LP release of Yaman has 240 beats per minute in the
drut-teentaal section.

Palas-Kafi jugalbandi commercial release of Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan
is very leisurely, nice madhya-laya pace and is at approx 112 beats per
minute. To lay perception, this pace seems much, much slower than just half
of 240-280 beats per minute chosen by Bhimsen Joshi for chhota khayal of
Shuddha Kalyan LP.

While chandrakantha.com site's statement that madhya-laya pace is about 80
beats per minute is okay as a rule of thumb, that is better described as
'dheemaa' laya, which falls between vilambit and madhya. But the word
'dheema' is rarely used. The pace of 80 beats per minute is towards very-low
boundary for madhya-laya and, after having these second-thoughts about it,
the norm for madhyalaya should not be 'one beat per heartbeat'. The more
prevalent speed for madhya-laya khayal presentation is around 120 beats per
minute.

- dn

[ragamala]

On Nov 24, 4:45 pm, Vivekanand P V <vivekanan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perfectly reliable. For some, vilambit may be little more sluggish
> given the prevalent idiosyncrasies.

>

> V

Last year during Saptak I timed various performances of vilambit
ektaal and my recollection is that the norm was around 53-55 seconds
per cycle.

I think it is unreliable in this thread context to consider LP
recordings where the constraint of the medium is likely to have
significantly affected tempi, especially slow laya, and longer concert
recordings or live experience, even better, is a better yardstick.

[naniwadekar]

"ragamala" <alantootill @yahoo.com> wrote :

>
> Last year during Saptak I timed various performances of vilambit
ektaal and my recollection is that the norm was around 53-55 seconds
per cycle.

I think it is unreliable in this thread context to consider LP
recordings where the constraint of the medium is likely to have
significantly affected tempi, especially slow laya, and longer concert
recordings or live experience, even better, is a better yardstick.

>-----------

Speed of 53-55 seconds per ektaal aavartan would be slower than
ati-vilambit, and it is rarely heard in concerts.

Bhimsen's Shuddha Kalyan LP uses the pace of 33 seconds per ektaal cycle,
and even that speed is on the slower end of the spectrum. The norm would be
closer to 25 to 30 seconds per 12-beat cycle. There are several
concert-length recordings available on YouTube which help to verify this
point.

- dn

[Vivekanand P V]

Not much help there. Amir Khan had maintained the same tempo of
Jhoomra for his LP recordings and long concerts as well. Manasoor's
Vilambit Teentaal did not grow for his concerts. The point here is
that LPs offer much authentic and accessible evidence.

[Sanjeev Ramabhadran]

Agree.

Sanjeev

[C Parthapratim]

On Friday, November 25, 2011 5:15:20 PM UTC+5:30, Vivekanand P V wrote:
> On Nov 25, 1:34 pm, ragamala <alant...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Nov 24, 4:45 pm, Vivekanand P V <viveka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
The point here is
> that LPs offer much authentic and accessible evidence.

This is precisely what the pre-recorded music industry has done to music in general: LP becomes more authentic than the concert recordings! Bravo! Accessible is fine, but authentic!! However, 53-55 seconds for Vilambit Ektaal cycle (~50 beats per minute) is closer to reality though still on the faster side (towards Madhyalay) albeit is perfect in modern concerts where we, the audience want to listen to Drut only. The singing ability is measured by the yardstick of the speed of his/her taankari and the total time is limited for most artists so no wonder one would prefer to begin with a rather fast tempo pawning the slow meditative exposition. The aberration has grown disproportionately and this thread is a perfect example how far are we removed from the norms/canons.

[Abubakr]

On 11/25/2011 6:08 AM, naniwadekar wrote:
> "Vivekanand P V"<viveka...@gmail.com> wrote :
>>
>> Incidentally, I think a popular madhyalaya would be 120bpm approx.
>>
>
> I think that is a fair statement.
>
> Kumar Gandharva's LP release of Shree-Kalyan is set to Madhya-to-drut laya.
> I would rather call it madhya-laya rather than drut, and it is about 160
> beats per minute; but some vocalists may choose this pace for chhota khayal,
> which is associated with drut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrbP2B4eBoc

A languid drut.

> Kumar Gandharva's madhya-laya rendition, at about 144 beats per minute.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiyVt5BYnAM&feature=related

ditto

> Bilaskhani Todi by KG, explicitly marked to be at madhya-laya, has 8
> teen-taal cycles per minute, so 128 beats per minute.

faster end of madhyalay

> Vilayat Khan's LP release of Yaman has 240 beats per minute in the
> drut-teentaal section.
>
> Palas-Kafi jugalbandi commercial release of Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan
> is very leisurely, nice madhya-laya pace and is at approx 112 beats per
> minute. To lay perception, this pace seems much, much slower than just half
> of 240-280 beats per minute chosen by Bhimsen Joshi for chhota khayal of
> Shuddha Kalyan LP.
>
> While chandrakantha.com site's statement that madhya-laya pace is about 80
> beats per minute is okay as a rule of thumb, that is better described as
> 'dheemaa' laya, which falls between vilambit and madhya. But the word
> 'dheema' is rarely used. The pace of 80 beats per minute is towards very-low
> boundary for madhya-laya and, after having these second-thoughts about it,
> the norm for madhyalaya should not be 'one beat per heartbeat'. The more
> prevalent speed for madhya-laya khayal presentation is around 120 beats per
> minute.

This is what I consider a "classic" madhyalay at slower end of the
scale: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggfzBbODb0&feature=related

Mallikarjun Mansur's vilambit teental, followed by drut teental:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqbfwjxkc44&feature=related

To my ears, vilambit teental is generally sung much faster than vilambit
ektal and I have hardly heard anything in "classical" madhyala ektal.
Jhaptal is not sung very slowly nor too rapidly, same with rupak. The
ati drut teental like speeds are unheard of in rupak, yet the vilambit
rupaks are really madhya lay, if we compare to similar speed teentals.

Thus in my experience, speed of the cycle is somewhat dependent on the taal.



> - dn
>
>
>


--
“I think nothing of popping up at centre-half or full-back. We are all
footballers and as such should be able to perform competently in all 11
positions.” -Alfredo Di Stefano

[Abubakr]

Excuse me, I posted the wrong link initially. Here is my "classic"
madhyalay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxD7y10sNU

[naniwadekar]

"Abubakr" <delta...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> Here is my "classic" madhyalay:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxD7y10sNU

> > To my ears, vilambit teental is generally sung much faster than vilambit
> > ektal and I have hardly heard anything in "classical" madhyala ektal.
> > Jhaptal is not sung very slowly nor too rapidly, same with rupak.
>

I would not associate madhya-laya (about 60 beats per minute) with that
link, let alone with 'classic' added to it. Perhaps it is VERY languid
madhyalaya; because if 60 bpm is classic, does it leave any part of the
spectrum for languid? Jhaptaal and roopak need not be considered in any
discussion of drut. Once I heard Abhisheki sing a song ('sarvaatmakaa') in
super-fast roopak and it gave me headache. He was obviously doing it as sort
of a challenge rather than paying full attention to its aesthetics, and that
is fine if an artist wants to experiment. For madhyalaya ektaal, try Bade
Ghulam's Hameer in sawf archives. Yes, that speed is not chosen often for
ektaal.

> yet the vilambit > rupaks are really madhya lay, if we compare
> to similar speed teentals.
>

I do not know what that statement means. About 45 beats per minute is fairly
standard vilambit roopak, and 'classic' vilambit teentaal is also about the
same pace. I agree that vilambit ektaal is slower than these two, and the
choice of taal dictates the pace. To space the ti-ra-ki-ta bol properly in
any vilambit taal containing it, the speed would tend to be slower than for
taals like teentaal or roopak.

By the way, I just checked a link in which Gajananbuwa Joshi sings a
teentaal bandish by Vilayat Hussein Khan at 144 beats per minute, and calls
it drut. That is VERY languid drut, I think. But if we place 140 beats per
minute under 'drut' I would still associate madhyalaya with 80 to 120 beats
per minute, and 60 beats per minute (your 'classic' madhyalaya, which I
believe is called dheema-laya) under dheema or energetic-vilambit.


The site chandrakantha.com has chosen to go at factor of 2 from 10 beats per
minute to 20-40-80, and so on. It is a convenient rule of thumb but I would
change those figures to 20-40, then 100, then 200-300 and not mention
ati-ati-drut at all. Even at 250 beats per minute, you are really taking it
every 4th beat. But halve that speed and you can now take it every single
beat rather than having to take it every second beat.


- dn

[Abubakr]

On 11/26/2011 12:00 PM, naniwadekar wrote:
> "Abubakr"<delta...@gmail.com> wrote :
>>
>> Here is my "classic" madhyalay:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxD7y10sNU
>>> To my ears, vilambit teental is generally sung much faster than vilambit
>>> ektal and I have hardly heard anything in "classical" madhyala ektal.
>>> Jhaptal is not sung very slowly nor too rapidly, same with rupak.
>>
> I would not associate madhya-laya (about 60 beats per minute) with that
> link, let alone with 'classic' added to it. Perhaps it is VERY languid
> madhyalaya; because if 60 bpm is classic, does it leave any part of the
> spectrum for languid?

I did say it was on the slower end of the spectrum. But fine, a languid
madhayalay, or fastish deema, is probably a fairer description. It's
certainly no vilambit, when one compares to Mallikarjun's usual teental
bandishes.

Probably, a better example of 'classic' madhayalay is in the M. Rafi
song, man tarpat hari darshan ko aaj:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyLdgQinxpY&feature=fvwrel

>Jhaptaal and roopak need not be considered in any
> discussion of drut. Once I heard Abhisheki sing a song ('sarvaatmakaa') in
> super-fast roopak and it gave me headache. He was obviously doing it as sort
> of a challenge rather than paying full attention to its aesthetics, and that
> is fine if an artist wants to experiment. For madhyalaya ektaal, try Bade
> Ghulam's Hameer in sawf archives. Yes, that speed is not chosen often for
> ektaal.

It's a beauty! But speed wise, it is what I've been classifying as
languid drut when discussing teental. Perhaps this can be excused on the
basis of it being ektal and we can call it a brisk madhyalay.

>> yet the vilambit> rupaks are really madhya lay, if we compare
>> to similar speed teentals.
>>
> I do not know what that statement means. About 45 beats per minute is fairly
> standard vilambit roopak, and 'classic' vilambit teentaal is also about the
> same pace.

I don't agree. Vilambit roopak is generally faster than its teental
counterpart, in the deema range, for example MM's Bahaduri Todi. Or,
Umrao Bundhu Khan's Gaud Sarang, which is proper 'classic madhyalay'.

I agree that vilambit ektaal is slower than these two, and the
> choice of taal dictates the pace. To space the ti-ra-ki-ta bol properly in
> any vilambit taal containing it, the speed would tend to be slower than for
> taals like teentaal or roopak.
>
> By the way, I just checked a link in which Gajananbuwa Joshi sings a
> teentaal bandish by Vilayat Hussein Khan at 144 beats per minute, and calls
> it drut. That is VERY languid drut, I think. But if we place 140 beats per
> minute under 'drut' I would still associate madhyalaya with 80 to 120 beats
> per minute, and 60 beats per minute (your 'classic' madhyalaya, which I
> believe is called dheema-laya) under dheema or energetic-vilambit.

I don't have too many problems with that. Deema can be in the range
50-70 but at that speed, it is certainly not vilambit. The mood of the
bandishes are distinct at those speeds from the vilambit ones. We are
talking about teental here.

> The site chandrakantha.com has chosen to go at factor of 2 from 10 beats per
> minute to 20-40-80, and so on. It is a convenient rule of thumb but I would
> change those figures to 20-40, then 100, then 200-300 and not mention
> ati-ati-drut at all. Even at 250 beats per minute, you are really taking it
> every 4th beat. But halve that speed and you can now take it every single
> beat rather than having to take it every second beat.
>
>
> - dn
>
>
>

[Abubakr]

On 11/26/2011 12:00 PM, naniwadekar wrote:

> By the way, I just checked a link in which Gajananbuwa Joshi sings a
> teentaal bandish by Vilayat Hussein Khan at 144 beats per minute, and calls
> it drut. That is VERY languid drut, I think.

Btw, what link is that - mind posting one?

[naniwadekar]

>
> Btw, what link is that - mind posting one?
>

Gajananbuwa Joshi talking to Ashok Ranade; the (great) programme has been
posted over 3 links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xybs_7b9E4 (this is the last part)

Buwa mentions Vilayat Hussein Khan's name at 2:55 mark.

- dn

[Abubakr]

Wonderful! Thanks for that! This was a great programme. Unfortunately
they were in a language I don't understand! I would've been happier if
they spoke in Hindi/Urdu, if not English!!

[Vivekanand P V]

> Accessible is fine, but authentic!!

Of course! You have the battery of masters ranging from Krishnarao
Shankar Pandit to Pandit Jasraj.

> However, 53-55 seconds for Vilambit Ektaal cycle (~50 beats per minute) is closer to reality

For D V Paluskar, the reality happens just at 25 seconds per cycle of
vilambit ektaal (vide: Todi AIR archives). Krishnarao Pandit's reality
level is still lowered. Some of Jasraj's LPs have 50+ seconds per
cycle of the same taal. BGAK, on the other hand, is known to criticise
longer avartans as "waqt ka zaya karna". His Darbari (48 min) from AIR
archives takes an exquisite 37 seconds per cycle. Nisar Hussain Khan
sings at the same length of cycle for his Miyan Malhar (ITC-SRA
archives). Kumar Gandharva, in a live recording of his Nand takes the
same bet of 37 seconds. Mallikarjun Manasoor takes 30 seconds per
cycle for his vilambit ektaal (yes, he sang in VE) in Miyan Malhar
(AIR Dharwad recording). Rashid Khan needs 68 seconds in his Gorakh
Kalyan (Times Music).

What is reality?

> The singing ability is measured by the yardstick of the speed of his/her taankari
> and the total time is limited for most artists so no wonder one would prefer to begin
> with a rather fast tempo pawning the slow meditative exposition.

Your argument insists that recorded music considered tankari as the
yardstick and hence bereft of meditativeness. What would you say when
a singer sings at approximately near bpms in his LPs and live
concerts, such as Manasoor? Your logic abides us to declare such a
music is devoid of meditative exposition.

> The aberration has grown disproportionately and this thread is a perfect example how far are we removed from the norms/canons.

We often witness your cranial ruptures when you are too desperate to
be a genius.

[Abubakr]

On 11/26/2011 1:58 PM, naniwadekar wrote:
>>

Yunus Hussain Khan has sung this bandish @ circa 190 bpm in one
recording I have.