Western Music notes for Sa ri ga ma...
Surya Ramaswami
Can someone please help me with this simple question?
In Carnatic music, we learn first the very basic notes: Typically in
raag Mayamalavagowla " Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Da Ni Sa - Sa Ni Da Pa Ma Ga Ri
Sa" Arohanam and avarohanam.
Can you please translate this swaram to Western Music notes, so that I
can give it to my friend who wants to play it on the piano? I can play
Sa ri Ga ma on the piano but I don't know how to translate it and write
it in Western Music notes.
I'll greatly appreciate any help on this.
Thank you very very much.
Surya
seld...@gmail.com
Aflat B C.
ramnath...@hotmail.com
S Shuddha Sa C
r Komal Re C#
R Shuddha Re D
g Komal Ga D#
G Shuddha Ga E
m Shuddha Ma F
M Teevra Ma F#
P Shuddha Pa G
d Komal Dha G#
D Shuddha Dha A
n Komal Ni A#
N Shuddha Ni B
John Wright
> Notation Swara Western Note
> S Shuddha Sa C
> r Komal Re C#
> R Shuddha Re D
As the original query was from a Carnatic system follower, it should be
noted that the "Swara" column above is the Hindusthani system swara.
Carnatic system followers need to take care in transforming it
appropriately. For example, Komal Re of Hindusthani is Shuddha Ri of
Carnatic.
Regards - JW
Anonymous
r1 Suddha Rishabam C#
r2 Chatusruthi Rishabam D
g1 Sadharana Gandharam D#
g2 Antara Gandharam E
m1 Suddha madyaman F
m2 Prathi madhyamam F#
p Panchamam G
d1 Suddha Daivatham G#
d2 Chatusruti daivatham A
n1 Kaisiki Nishadam A#
n2 Kakali Nishadam B
<ramnath...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106120784.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
John Wright
"Komal" in Hindusthani, and "Shuddha", "Sadharana", "Anthara" etc. in
Carnatic?
Both systems in my view introduced unnecessary complexity when they named
their swaras centuries ago. Discussions between musicians or music lovers of
the two systems inevitably leads to mighty confusion when they discuss the
swaras in a raga - without sometimes realising for example that Shuddha Ga
in Carnatic is the Hindusthani Shuddha Re.
Regards - JW
Ananth
Mapping of notes from Carnatic to Western is often confused and
misunderstood.
Fortunately both the systems have 12 tones in an octave/sthayee (no 22
notes/scale theory please).
In Carnatic there are 3 variants for Ri, Ga, Dha & Ni which need to be
considered very carefully.
Starting from Sa, the twelve tones of carnatic are:
1. Sa
2. Ri1
3. Ri2 or Ga1
4. Ga2 or Ri3
5. Ga3
6. Ma1
7. Ma2
8. Pa
9. Dha1
10. Dha2 or Ni1
11. Ni2 or Dha3
12. Ni3
Similar List for western:
1. C
2. C#/Db (C Sharp or D Flat)
3. D
4. D#/Eb
5. E
6. F
7. F#/Gb
8. G
9. G#/Ab
10. A
11. A#/Bb
12. B
Please note, C doesnt need to be the starting point always. C gets
related to Sa when it is considered to be the sruthi. We can take any
note as sruthi and count from that.
Anyway, if we take C as Sa, we'll get this list:
1. Sa - C
2. Ri1 - C#/Db
3. Ri2/Ga1 - D
4. Ga2/Ri3 - D#/Eb
5. Ga3 - E
6. Ma1 - F
7. Ma2 - F#/Eb
8. Pa - F
9. Dha1 - G#/Ab
10. Dha2/Ni1 - A
11. Ni2/Dha3 - A#/Bb
12. Ni3 - B
(DhIra?) Shankarabharanam and C Major scale go nicely together.
Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa dha Ni Sa (Shankarabharanam) = C D E F G A B C' (C Major)
You can take this as a reference and notate other ragams by comparing it
with shankarabharanam.
ex: Kalyani = Shankarabharanam with Ma2 (a step higher than in S/B)
so, Kalyani Arohanam = C D E F# G A B C' (with C as sruthi, 1 kattai?)
Mayamalava gowlai uses Ri1 and Dha1 , both are a step lower than in s/b.
So M.G Arohanam = C Db E F G Ab B C'
---------------------------------
There is an easier way to keep this relationship in mind, particularly
when working with the rule C = Sa.
Step1: Sa=C, Ri=D, Ga=E, Ma=F, Pa=G, Dha=A, Ni=B (ref. Shankarabharanam)
Step2: for swaras -
(*) Sa,Pa - no change.
(*) Ri & Dha 1=flat 2=natural 3=sharp applied to corresponding English
letter.
(ex: Ri1=Db, Dha1=Ab ... Ri2,Dha2 = D,A .... Ri3,Dha3=D#,A#.)
(*) Ga & Ni 1= double flat (will fetch the previous note) 2=flat, 3=natural.
(ie., Ga1=Ebb=D Ga2=Eb, Ga3=E, Ni 1,2,3 = A,Bb,B)
(*) Ma 1=natural (F), 2=Sharp (F#)
Note:
1. This idea will work directly for 1 kattai sruthi only (C as Sa). If
we take anyother sruthi, say E for Sa, then Step1 itself will contain
sharps/flats. Step2 should be applied carefully, further flattening or
sharpening already flattened/shapened notes.
2. Though we could correspond notes, Carnatic and western notes dont
have the same frequencies because of the tuning systems. The western
world, after a lot of experiments, now uses Equal Temperament tuning.
I'm not sure about how closely it would match carnatic notes.
With Regards,
Ananth
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/CarnaticResource
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ResearchCarnatic
Ananth
I have a little problem interpretting your table.
Taking C as Shadjam, I completely agree when you derive A#=Kaisiki
Nishadham, and B = Kakali nishadham, (also for Sadharana and Antara
Ghandaram)
But my problem is with numbers. You have mapped Ni1=Kaisiki Nishadham,
and Ni2=Kakali nishadham. That's where my problem is.
As far as i know, there are 3 nishadhams, Sudhdha, Kaisiki and Kakali.
I'd rather prefer to number them as Suddha(?)=1, Kaisiki=2, Kakali =3.
What surprises me more is, many websites and books follow numbers just
as you have given in your table (ni 1,2 = kaisiki and kakali). They also
use the same for describing ragas... like shankarabharanam =
sarigamapadha ni=2 sa.
Unfortunately, there are other books and web pages which use 3 (ni2 =
kaisiki, ni3=kakali) and thier raga tables will follow the same
convention. (so Shankarabharanam will have a ni3, not 2)
I hope 'Ga' too have the same problem.
any ideas?
With Regards,
Ananth
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/CarnaticResource
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ResearchCarnatic
kvis...@yahoo.co.in
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~arvindh/cmt/the_12_notes.html
a handy online table
Ananth
> Does anyone know the history behind the origin of the terms "Shuddha"
> & "Komal" in Hindusthani, and "Shuddha", "Sadharana", "Anthara" etc.
> in Carnatic?
I would like to quote a few lines from 'Alap' from Times Music.
" Shuddha means 'pure'. The word 'Shuddha' is used differently in
Carnatic and Hindustani music. In Carnatic music it denotes the lowerst
variety of a particular note. In Hindustani music, Shuddha is the basic
note which can have its Komala or Tivra variations."
> Both systems in my view introduced unnecessary complexity when they named
> their swaras centuries ago. Discussions between musicians or music lovers of
> the two systems inevitably leads to mighty confusion when they discuss the
> swaras in a raga - without sometimes realising for example that Shuddha Ga
> in Carnatic is the Hindusthani Shuddha Re.
Understanding the relationship between Carnatic and Hindustani music
systems might help us to find the solution for this.
There is a popular belief that there was only a single music system
through out India. Because of its exposure to other cultures and
invasions from north, the music of Northern India experienced several
transformations.
Again, a few lines from Alap,
" The Karnataka Sangeetam, more commonly referred to as Carnatic music
today, is the old continuing tradition of the ancient Indian Music, of
course, with its natural dynamic transformations as a part of its
growth. The basis of the ancient heritage has remained intact, ..."
The book also states that the technical terms used in Carnatic are
directly traceable to the ancient and medieval texts on music, including
Natya Sastra dating back to 400 B.C.
Now I hope it is understandable why both the systems have many similar
terms which often lead to ambiguity.
Regards,
Ananth
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Bossk (R)
> Does anyone know the history behind the origin
> of the terms "Shuddha" & "Komal" in Hindusthani,
> and "Shuddha", "Sadharana", "Anthara" etc. in
> Carnatic?
>
> Both systems in my view introduced unnecessary
> complexity when they named their swaras centuries
> ago.
At the 1680 all-India music conference in Sholapur,
evil representatives from both systems agreedto
introduce conflicting nomenclatures for the sake of
confusion.
753...@pdsb.net
mulhe...@gmail.com
savvysubu
In hindustani system, the equivalent of major scale or 'shankarabharanam' of carnatic is the "shuddha variants of notes". So each of those notes are shuddha variety of "Re Ga, etc". Further, life is simpler with only two variants for Re Ga Ma Dha Ni, so the terms "komal" (lower) and "tivra" (higher) can define the notes.
In carnatic, the term shuddha does not align with the hindustani definition of shuddha and that is the source of confusion.. So my suggestion is do not try to get what "shuddha dhaivata means", but just get used to what it is called in different systems, which you mostly relate to as "featured in some raga"..
Subu