History of sarod.
Chidambaram Narayanan
If the sarod was introduced in India by
allAuddin khAn, from Afghanistan (was told
by shrI Ranajit Sengupta before his sarod
concert in Zurich) then what happens to the 7 generations of sarod
players of amjad ali khAn?
chidu...
--
Chidambaram Narayanan
Institut fuer Energietechnik
Clausiusstrasse 33
ETH Zentrum, CLT D4
CH-8092, Zurich
Off: +41(01)632-4601
Sajjad Khaliq
: If the sarod was introduced in India by
: allAuddin khAn, from Afghanistan (was told
: by shrI Ranajit Sengupta before his sarod
: concert in Zurich) then what happens to the 7 generations of sarod
: players of amjad ali khAn?
Who says Ustad Allauddin Khan introduced the sarod from Afghhanistan?
Allauddin Khan was old when he died (110 or thereabouts), but he would
have had to been 400 years old if we belive the above statement, as he
died in 1972.
What is generally known is that Sarod was conceived from an Afghani rabab
instrument brought over to Hindustan from Afghanistan by Ghulam Mohammed
Bandegi Bangash, a forefather of Amjad Ali Khan, some 6 or 7 generations
ago.
naniwadekar
Sajjad Khaliq <aa...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> wrote in message
news:9mdegp$52o$2...@mohawk.hwcn.org...
When Amjad Ali Khan was born, his father, Hafiz, was
65 year-old, according to liner notes to an LP (I forget
which one). If Amjad was born in 1946, then Hafiz
was 57-58, not 65, when Amjad was born. The Bangash
family would need a history of such late children over
centuries for it to span 400 years with just 6-7 generations.
Not impossible, but unlikely. Restraint is not a quality
you associate with that family.
Either the 400-year bit or the (only) 6-7 generations bit
is wrong. Or *both* these pieces of info are fiction.
Allauddin Khan - He had told Deodhar that he was born
in 1868. Then he celebrated his birth centenary in 1962.
(Probably he was 100 according to some Bangla-deshi
calendar in 1962. But since he made no such revelation,
we must judge him according to RMIC calendar, and treat
the centennial bash as laughably vain and senile). He died
in 1972, 'now a true centenarian', as Deodhar's book says.
But some people dispute the claim that he was born in
1868, and estimate 1880 to be his year of birth.
Check Rajan Parrikar's post, dated 30 August 1999.
What has made Sajjad Khaliq speak up on behalf
of Amjad family tree to trash Allauddin music-tree? :)
Your enemy's enemy is your friend; right? (Just
kidding, Sajjad.)
- dn
Praful Kelkar
> Hi,
>
> If the sarod was introduced in India by
> allAuddin khAn, from Afghanistan (was told
> by shrI Ranajit Sengupta before his sarod
> concert in Zurich) then what happens to the 7 generations of sarod
> players of amjad ali khAn?
>
> chidu...
That would be a wrong statement.
There seems to be no agreement about exactly how Sarod evolved and who
(or whose ancestors) played what role. There probably were
instruments in ancient India which have semblance to Sarod.
However, the modern form seems to be about 2-3 centuries old. While
the main features that identifies sarod are metal strings, smooth
metal fingerboard, animal skin atop a wooden carved body, coconut
pick, style of playing with meends, style of playing using
fingernails, etc - it is impossible to know who added what features
and modifications, and when.
Some theories out on the web ....
1. It originates from Rabab - major structural and musical
modifications and additions from Ud Amjad Ali Khan's family going back
7 generations, starting with Mohammad Hashmi Khan Bangash, a horse
trader, also a musician, who frequently visited India, and who
ultimately settled in Rewa, Central India, in the mid 1700's.
http://sarod.com/thesarod/thesarodframes.htm ....
2. Sarod - dates back to Antiquity --with instruments like sarod
perhaps called Swarodaya ... from the book by Sharan Rani
http://www.divinesarod.com/sarod.html
3. Allauddin Khansaheb made major contributions toward evolution of
the Maihar style sarod, namely adding other chicari strings, chicari
bridge. Baba studied sarod from Ahmad Ali.
Both Hafiz ali khan and Allauddin Khan studied from Wazir Khan (a
beenkaar and dhrupadiya) and both contributed to the modern style of
playing with meends, dir-dir, slow stuff, fast stuff, etc. Hafiz ali
khan braught in the gayaki ang on sarod, Amjad Ali Khan further
changed the fingering to creat the crisp clean sound we hear in his
playing.
It is curious that AACMwala's make no mention of Bangash family
contribution to evolution of sarod and its playing - that is obviously
a distorted viewpoint.
With cool regards,
Praful
bdixit
(1888-1972) who was a renowned sarod player of Gwalior darbar. Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan and the other great sarod
player, Baba Allauddin Khan (1862-1972) of Maihar were both disciples of Ustad Wazir Khan of Rampur. So the
claim sometimes made by Amjad Ali Khan that the Bangash Gharana of sarod from Gwalior is the oldest gharana of
sarod does not seem to be correct. But it is not very uncommon to hear conflicting claims about "origins" of
many things made my ICM musicians. That is in nature of the beast. More on this in a few days, time
permitting. ....Balwant Dixit
Praful Kelkar wrote:
--
Balwant N. Dixit
University of Pittsburgh
541-2 Salk Hall
Pittsburgh, PA 15261
Tel No:(412) 648-8582
FAX No:(412) 648-8475
Framedrums
>many things made my ICM musicians.
This is very true. I still await the day when I finally know who developed the
tabla. I'm aware of several stories, but none that aren't in dispute.
Chris
Chidambaram Narayanan
That is why I was surprised to hear such a thing
in the concert. This artiste Ranajit Sengupta is
a student of Aashish Khan and is therefore from
the AAK school. I think these people get away with
anything in foreign countries. Here the audience was
around 90% Swiss and 10% "samosa-desis".
He also said for each of the two pieces presented
that this is "a very advanced way of presenting
ICM". God knows what he meant by that. I would
have liked it if his music could suggest his
advanced stage!
chidu...
--
Praful Kelkar
> The information I have about sarod is as follows: Ustad Amjad Ali Khan is the son of Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan
> (1888-1972) who was a renowned sarod player of Gwalior darbar. Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan and the other great sarod
> player, Baba Allauddin Khan (1862-1972) of Maihar were both disciples of Ustad Wazir Khan of Rampur. So the
> claim sometimes made by Amjad Ali Khan that the Bangash Gharana of sarod from Gwalior is the oldest gharana of
> sarod does not seem to be correct. But it is not very uncommon to hear conflicting claims about "origins" of
> many things made my ICM musicians. That is in nature of the beast. More on this in a few days, time
> permitting. ....Balwant Dixit
One correction Dr. Dixit, both Hafiz Ali and Baba Allauddin studied
'music' from Wazir Khan but not Sarod. Baba studied it from Ahmad
Ali and Hafiz Ali from his father. How Ahmad Ali learnt that I don't
know. Wazir Khan played been - dhrupad and not Sarod. He must be a
peculiar man, must have been a great musician, but he forbade Baba
from studying Been saying that he was not from the beenkaar gharana.
Another angle on the small minded pettiness within ICM and the gharana
crap that even perpetuates today.
Praful
maitreaus
Hi all,
a lot of discussion is going on about the origin and evolution of
sarode! I would suggest that the newsgroup participants have look at
the following link for a sort of "balanced" account.
Otherwise it is something like the Indian and Pakistani account of the
1965 war!!! Every gharana tries to bag all the credit it can.
Here is the link.
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~boppe/MUSIC/GHAR/sarod.html
Cheers.
Maitreyaus
Balwant Dixit
then to Calcutta, joined the school of Tagore. He learned many instruments there and then went to Rampur, and learned
sarod from Ahmad Ali, Fida Hussain and Wazir Khan......BND
Richard Harrington
>
> Hi,
>
> If the sarod was introduced in India by
> allAuddin khAn, from Afghanistan (was told
> by shrI Ranajit Sengupta before his sarod
> concert in Zurich) then what happens to the 7 generations of sarod
> players of amjad ali khAn?
> chidu...
Perhaps what he meant (or said, or should have said)
was Allauddin *Khilji*- one of the first invaders from the west to
settle in India-
For more information, check:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rchrdhrngton/NewFiles/antique.html
I hope it gives you a different idea about it.
Richard H
John Holm
> For more information, check:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rchrdhrngton/
> NewFiles/antique.html
Where's Biswajit Roy Chowdhury in that list of Today's Players? I see
Richard Harrington is there, but no BRC :)
naniwadekar
Richard Harrington <rchrdh...@earthlink.net> wrote -
<some more gibberish>
I faintly remember you as a poster who occasionally
unloads silly fantasies on rmic.
>
> I hope it gives you a different idea about it.
>
And your post gave me no different idea
about you.
- dn
bhargav
i learn the sarod and have been with it for the last 15 yrs. recently,
for a lec dem, i had researched on this subject of the origin/history
of the sarod and came up with some interesting information. it is all
posted in my websit at the following url:
http://www.bhargavmistry.com/sarod
Do visit and pl give your feed back.
thanks
Chidambaram Narayanan <ch...@iet.mavt.ethz.ch> wrote in message news:<3B8A2197...@iet.mavt.ethz.ch>...
Arnab Chakrabarty
HISTORY OF THE SAROD
A general lack of informed discourse on the topic of "the History of the sarod" and the circulation of various half-truths, untruths and rumour based information has forced us to step in and make a few observations/comments.
The very basis of this thread originates in the utterances of a musician with little or no connection to the vast body of scholarship surrounding the history of the sarod. I am still uncertain if Chidu's original intent was anything beyond evoking a few humourous exchanges between readers.
The antiquity of the name "sarod" is a matter of fierce contestation, but written memoirs of Ustad Enayet Ali Khan of Shahjahanpur indicate that Kabuli Rabab was called sarod by some of its performers even before the characterizing adaptations took place in the early nineteenth century. The source of this information is Shri Irfan Khan, a direct descendant of Enayet Ali [and the son of Khalifa Umar Khan (1918-1982)], who is in possession of all the written histories of the original Lucknow and Shahjahanpur Gharanas of sarod.
Shri Amjad Ali Khan's claim regarding the position of his gharana (as the first sarod gharana) in the history of the development of the sarod is not entirely fictitious, as his great-grandfather Ghulam Ali Khan (ca. 1790-1858) and Ustad Niyamatullah Khan (1818-1909?) were contemporaries. Both were disciples of the (Seniya) rababiyas Pyar Khan and Jaffar Khan, who were, in turn, disciples of the famed Ustad Basat Khan Saheb Rababiya of Kashi (Benares). According to most documentation, there is an intricate link between the development of the modern sarod and that of the sursringar. The sursringar, far from being an ancient instrument of alapchari, was a mid-ninteenth century invention of the aforementioned Basat Khan. As oral history (documented by Bimalakant Roy Chowdhury, Radhika Mohan Maitra, and later, Dr. Allyn Miner) it was Basat Khan's frustration with the seasonal performance of his rabab (owing to the skin membrane and gut strings) that led to the replacement of the rabab's hide head with a "tabli", "jawari" bridge, and metal strings. Through their indirect association with Basat Khan, the two Pathan sarodiyas, Ghulam Ali Khan (Bangash) and Niyamatullah were able to derive this idea and implement it (partially) on their Kabuli Rababs and give it the form of what we know as the sarod.
The approximate date for this innovation is given by Dr. Miner as 1825-30. In which case, the innovation per se can, by one string of logic, be attributed to Ghulam Ali, who was, after all, the senior of the two (a fact that would have been inconsequential had Niyamatullah not been a minor in 1825). In any case, there is no clear evidence, and both families claim the transformation of the Kabuli Rabab into the sarod as contributions of their respective ancestors.
Two or three generations of musicians advanced the art of sarod playing to a considerable degree of refinement, and by the time Allauddin Khan was born (ca. 1880), the sarod was a fairly well established instrument and boasted of such masters as Niyamatullah Khan, his son Karamatullah Khan (1848-1934), Murad Ali Khan (ca. 1825-1878), Abdullah Khan (ca. 1850-1923). Hafiz Ali Khan (b. 1888) was the son of Nanhe Khan, who was the youngest brother of Murad Ali Khan, and Hafiz Ali's contemporary was Allauddin Khan (b. 1880?). Mohammad Ameer Khan, Murad Ali's grandson (son of Abdullah Khan) was born in 1873, and rose to a stature which remained, in his lifetime, unsurpassed by either Hafiz Ali or Allauddin Khan. Md. Ameer Khan became the court musician of Darbhanga. In this regard, it would be unfair to club Ameer Khan with Hafiz/Allauddin.
Hafiz Ali Khan received his musical training from his father Nanhe Khan, uncle Murad Ali Khan, cousin Abdullah Khan and nephew Mohammad Ameer Khan, before becoming a disciple of Dhrupadiya/Kirtankar Pandit Ganeshilal of Vrindavan. It was much later that Wazir Khan accepted him as a disciple. Allauddin Khan's sarod training commenced under Ahmed Ali Khan, a vassal of Murad Ali's gharana, and continued under Fida Hussain of Rampur (also a disciple of Wazir Khan Beenkar), and finally, he became a disciple of Wazir Khan. It must be noted that this was a period of transition for our instrumental traditions, and it is extremely unfair to attribute the "modern" sarod baaj in its entirety to Ustad Allauddin Khan. The influence of the sitar styles of the Jaipur and Etawah Gharanas on the development of sarod music is unmistakable.
Allauddin Khan's research and experimentations with sarod construction and design are a twentieth century phenomenon, and his contribution to the revolutionary change in the basic texture of the instrument's sound must be acknowledged. Yet again, there were other innovations independent of Allauddin Khan which also contributed to the developments of other kinds of sarods. Since history is the story of the victors, these vital pieces of information have been relegated to the dustbin. The radical change in sarod design came with the 1934 Maihar Prototype which went on to become Ustad Ali Akbar Khan's personal instrument. While this instrument set the standards for all mainstream sarods for a good half of this century, the real credit for STANDARDIZATION goes to Shri Hemen Chandra Sen, the octogenerian artisan from Calcutta who is singularly responsible for the very basic and general upliftment of standards in instrument making. Hemen Babu's disciple Dulal Chandra Kanji is the leading sarod maker of today, but is not an innovator like Sen. In 1997-98, a young sarodiya named Prattyush Banerjee set the stage for the next revolution in sarod design and construction, but ironically, his innovations have not received much attention yet. Till date, Prattyush and I are the only active practitioners to play this smaller, lighter, and mechanically efficient instrument which is the result of Banerjee's efforts.
To conclude this section, here is a brief summation of the above details in form of a timeline:
1760s - Pathan soldiers become keenly interested in ICM traditions and
start playing the Kabuli Rabab in that style.
1780s-1820s - The first revolution (struggle to overcome the severe
limitations of the rabab, and the birth of the modern sarod).
1820s-1880s - The sarod becomes a well-accepted instrument with a deep-rooted
performance culture and its own repertoire.
1890s-1920s - Allauddin Khan, Ameer Khan and Radhika Mohan Maitra usher
in the new baaj which allows for extended performance of a raga. Allauddin
Khan sets the new standard for the construction of sarods used by the following
generations of musicians.
1937 - Ali Akbar Khan makes his solo debut. This is an unprecedented
phenomenon in the history of sarod playing. Both the musician and his instrument
are sensational novelties in the realm of sarod playing. Khan is pushing
the boundaries to new levels.
1954 - Buddhadev Dasgupta ushers in the era of Khayal-based sarod baaj
with his first 78 rpm and EP discs. Dasgupta takes sarod technique to levels
of virtuosity and speed previously unseen, but acknowledges the supreme
genius of AAK that transcends all technical parameters.
1998 - Prattyush Banerjee makes his first concert appearance with his
ergonomic sarod.
RAGA MARWA ON THE SAROD - Why is a specific raga considered "difficult" on a specific instrument?
Marwa uses the komal variant of Ri, the tivra variant of Ma and completely omits the Pancham, while keeping all other notes natural. Its basic Arohi-Avarohi structure is as follows:
'N r G m D N S'/r' N D m G r, G m D - m G r - S.
Because the sarod has an open string which is tuned to the shuddha Ma, and another which is tuned to Pa, a performance of this raga on the sarod poses a great challenge to any player. To this claim, the Western musician will perhaps respond by arguing that a virtuostic musician will not make the mistake of hitting the wrong open string at the wrong time. The definition of virtuosity, however, in the context of sarod playing, has been quite different from the general notion of instrumental virtuosity in the West. Owing to its albeit undeserved reputation an extremely difficult instrument, the sarod has suffered immensely in the virtuosity department, as the smallest accomplishment on this instrument is lauded as a great musical achievement. If this had been the case in the West, similarly difficult instruments like the violin, the cello, and the double bass would have long become obsolete. We must, however, acknowledge that sarod technique still has a long way to go, and there are very few players in the world who meet a minimum acceptable standard of technical proficiency on the sarod. While mastery of Bilawal and Kafi thaats (and as a result many other related groups) can be acquired relatively easily, efficiency in the execution of ragas like Marwa, Shree, Puriya, and the Kanada Prakars (because of their intervallic structures) can never be achieved without extensive use of the third finger.
Ali Akbar Khan is a genius of an order unseen before his time, but his riyaaz was of a very traditional nature. It was due to his inherently intense musical personality that he was able to overcome his own technical limitations and bypass all technique and all grammar, and yet deliver the most emotionally appealing and moving performances on the sarod in this century. Radhika Mohan Maitra, on the other hand, emphasised on tayyari, and invented a simple, yet scientific fingering technique grounded in the arithmetic of intervallic distances. His disciple Buddhadev Dasgupta is perhaps the only musician of that generation to have cultivated technique to its potential. Ali Akbar Khan's followers (with the exception of his uniquely gifted son Shri Aashish Khan) have failed to realize the futility of de-emphasizing technique after their master's style. What they did not realize is that "Ali Akbar Khans are not made, they are born"! Amjad Ali Khan formulated his basic technique in the fashion of Dasgupta, but limited his own potential by using two fingers of his left hand instead of three to stop the strings. As a result, Amjad Ali's territory was always smaller, and spanned a few pre-determined circular paths in taanbazi as opposed to the unpredictability of Ustad Ali Akbar and Buddhadev Dasgupta.
With this basic grounding in the concept of sarod technique, one more thing that remains to be learnt is that when two subsequent notes of a taan are played with one finger of the left hand, the motion for this execution is never a sliding action, but actually very well controlled jumps. This finesse of technique, particularly of the third finger, has not been achieved by about 80% of the professional sarod players in circulation today, and a majority will fail to execute the following sequence for the above reason:
Notes: 'D 'N r S 'N r S 'N S 'D
r 'N 'D 'm 'D 'N r G m D N r' N D N N D m G r S
Finger: 1 3 1 0 3 1
3 3 0 1 3 3 1 3
1 3 1 3 1 1 1 3 3
1 3 3 1 1 3 1 0
Stroke: D R D R D D D R D D R D R D
D R D R D R D R D R D R D R D R D
This is why a CLEAN EXECUTION of Marwa, without invoking the DISSONANCE of the shuddha Ma and Pa is difficult on the sarod. It is not difficult for a practiced musician, but since there aren't very many traditional routes of riyaz for this scale, virtuosity remains scarce, and the raga, demanding!
Amjad Ali's failure to play Marwa or Puriya or Shri convincingly does not come as a surprise, as his two-finger technique is a major handicap so far this specific purpose is concerned.
Warm regards,
A
Praful Kelkar
> A discussion of two independent topics - A brief history of the sarod and its
Good job overall Arnab. It is slanted toward underplaying the
importance of Bangash gharana in the evolution of sarod. And you are
leaving out the claims of sarod like instruments in ancient Indian
temple statues.
I totally disagree with your two finger v/s three finger explanation.
Us AmAK is able to create the crispness and cleanness in his notes by
avoiding the use of the ring finger, which always hits the string at
an awkward angle and the sound is not clean. The fast passages on
Sarod have the tremendous propensity for going besura, which btw, is
audible even in the recordings of the greats.
Excessive fastness itself is neither sufficient nor necessary. Many
all time greats make the mistake of pushing too fast and going besura,
singers and
instrumentalists, including BGAK, AAK, even Baba in his all india
archive recordings, RS and even NB (who is unparalleled in the slow
and medium tempo and has most sublime musicality). What AmAK has done
in terms of his immaculate soorilaness & uniquely deep naad in sarod
playing are worth studying. Speaking of fast taans, Kumar Gandharva
comes closest to maintaing the absolute purity of shrutis, but not
many can boast that.
........
Marwa is difficult on Sarod for a simple reason that Pa and Ma are
both
missing, which are the tuning for the two strings. Not much to do
with two finger v.s. three finger stuff. But then what about Puriya
and Sohoni? And finally, the Marwa recording of the once great AAK is
really really bad.
There is another reason why 'marwa' is illusive - it may be an element
of style to speak like that. Eg. Buddhaditya Mukherjee was asked to
play Marwa in Minneapolis, he said, no that raag he would dare not
play..... perhaps reflecting the inherent difficulties in the raag or
perhaps adding to the mystic around its name.
Praful
Arnab Chakrabarty
> Good job overall Arnab. It is slanted toward underplaying the
> importance of Bangash gharana in the evolution of sarod. And you are
> leaving out the claims of sarod like instruments in ancient Indian
> temple statues.
Ordinarily, you would not have merited a response from me, but since
I am writing on very similar issues at this very moment, let me waste some
more time eating popcorn and paan, and trying to explain things to you.
> I totally disagree with your two finger v/s three finger explanation.
> Us AmAK is able to create the crispness and cleanness in his notes by
> avoiding the use of the ring finger, which always hits the string at
> an awkward angle and the sound is not clean. The fast passages on
> Sarod have the tremendous propensity for going besura, which btw, is
> audible even in the recordings of the greats.
Bullshit. The "awkward angle" explanation is also a lame excuse for
avoiding a logical argument for the use of two fingers. When the third or
ring finger is being used, one should take ample care to position it at
an angle of 55-65 degrees on the plate. This requires constant attention
and control. Yet again, the lack of crispness and cleanliness in the sound
of old greats has nothing to do with the third finger. It has more to do
with their lack of virtuosity as explained in the earlier post. Send me your
mailing address so that I may mail to you recordings of three sarodiyas
who can produce a cleaner, punchier and more imaginative rendition of
the "faster passages with propensity for besuraness" than Betaj Badshah.
> Excessive fastness itself is neither sufficient nor necessary. Many
> all time greats make the mistake of pushing too fast and going besura,
> singers and
> instrumentalists, including BGAK, AAK, even Baba in his all india
> archive recordings, RS and even NB (who is unparalleled in the slow
> and medium tempo and has most sublime musicality).
Wah. You do have a sense of humour. So far as technical perfection is
concerned, there has not been a phenomenon to match BGAK in any of
the sub-disciplines of HCM - EVER. So don't you even dare mention
his name in the context of technique alongside all these people. If you
use your dense mind to read between my lines, my previous post did not
laud AAK for his technique. What I am enamoured with is his genius
that goes beyond a besura note or two (which never happened when AAK
was in his prime). BGAK might have hit a few wrong notes after the
massive paralytic stroke he suffered in 1964, but that steals NOTHING
from the great man.
> What AmAK has done
> in terms of his immaculate soorilaness & uniquely deep naad in sarod
> playing are worth studying. Speaking of fast taans, Kumar Gandharva
> comes closest to maintaing the absolute purity of shrutis, but not
> many can boast that.
I have seen stunning, spellbinding performances by KG, and some atrocious
ones as well. The bare fact remains that Amjad at his best is nowhere within a
one-hundred mile radius when you hear Ali Akbar at his best. Buddhadev at
his best is another pure spectacle. But then, the best of all three are now mere
history, but confined gloriously to vinyl, magnetic tape, and optical discs.........
> Marwa is difficult on Sarod for a simple reason that Pa and Ma are
> both
> missing, which are the tuning for the two strings. Not much to do
> with two finger v.s. three finger stuff. But then what about Puriya
> and Sohoni? And finally, the Marwa recording of the once great AAK is
> really really bad.
Now that we are privy to your Amjadophilia, we understand where these
comments are coming from. It seems like you are a half-cooked sarod
player yourself without having got the basics right. Again, the supposed
problem (lack of crispness and clarity) mentioned by you, even if it exists,
is far outweighed by the ease of handling and efficiency afforded by the
three finger technique.
Now for AAK's Marwa. His signature series Marwa with Mahapurush
Mishra, although not necessarily among his best performances, is quite
a spectacular one, and there is no hint of besura. Passing the tradition is
a different story altogether, as it comes from a dilapidated man playing
for a grammy nomination.
> There is another reason why 'marwa' is illusive - it may be an element
> of style to speak like that. Eg. Buddhaditya Mukherjee was asked to
> play Marwa in Minneapolis, he said, no that raag he would dare not
> play..... perhaps reflecting the inherent difficulties in the raag or
> perhaps adding to the mystic around its name.
I would not believe Budhaditya-da if he said it to me. That was just his
polite and modest expression of a mood, which on that day, was not in
the realm of Marwa. He is the ultimate technician on the sitar today, and
there is not much that eludes his fiery fingers.
Warm regards,
a
doogar rajib
On 6 Sep 2001, Praful Kelkar wrote:
> an awkward angle and the sound is not clean. The fast passages on
> Sarod have the tremendous propensity for going besura, which btw, is
> audible even in the recordings of the greats.
>
> Excessive fastness itself is neither sufficient nor necessary. Many
> all time greats make the mistake of pushing too fast and going besura,
> singers and
> instrumentalists, including BGAK, AAK, even Baba in his all india
> archive recordings, RS and even NB (who is unparalleled in the slow
> and medium tempo and has most sublime musicality). What AmAK has done
> in terms of his immaculate soorilaness & uniquely deep naad in sarod
> playing are worth studying. Speaking of fast taans, Kumar Gandharva
> comes closest to maintaing the absolute purity of shrutis, but not
> many can boast that.
Praful could you mention specific recordings where you think AmAks
surilaness is masterful?
>
> ........
> Marwa is difficult on Sarod for a simple reason that Pa and Ma are
> both
> missing, which are the tuning for the two strings. Not much to do
> with two finger v.s. three finger stuff. But then what about Puriya
> and Sohoni? And finally, the Marwa recording of the once great AAK is
> really really bad.
Having been screwing around on the fiddle (of couse at my own level of
supreme incompetence) with a little teental gat and a few simple taans in
Marwa, I'd like to offer two cents in this fingering issue.
First the fiddle tuning: M,S,P,S'. (Can't use PSPS for obvious reasons:
giving the the Mandra teevra Ma is suicidal). This creates the problem
that Praful mentions so that you have to hit the teevra madhyam just right
every time (a.e. is NOT good enough in Marwa). On a violin going from the
shuddha dhaivat on the third string to teevra madhyam on the second string
means your tarjani is on dhaivat and your anamika is stretching to teevra
madhyam and doing this rapidly in the middle of sapat taans is one thing,
doing this in more complicated movements is a nice piece of work to
master. If taar sa is all you want to go to, you can pull it on one
string (the S string), but if you want to go beyond the tar sa then you
have to change strings.
Also Marwa is a meend-viheen raga (by and large anyway) so any
slight adjustments are very exposed. Everything has to be just right.
Add to that the prakriti and you cannot run up and down like the last
quarter mile of the Derby - the note weight has to be right to play off
the teevra Madhyam against the dhaivat and the rishabh -- the essense of
Marwa. This makes the construction of non-childish taans an exercise in
acoustical genius in my opinion. And I have to say, the thought of a
jhala in Marwa raises two questions a) why and b) who is capable of doing
it in a way that preserves the gravitas and depth of marwa?
In short, my reaction to Marwa has always been this is not your father's
oldsmobile, so don't use the back seat for light recreation -- its a
Boxter, you better be very good before you try it.
>
> There is another reason why 'marwa' is illusive - it may be an element
> of style to speak like that. Eg. Buddhaditya Mukherjee was asked to
> play Marwa in Minneapolis, he said, no that raag he would dare not
> play..... perhaps reflecting the inherent difficulties in the raag or
> perhaps adding to the mystic around its name.
I find this raga to be profoundly moving and deep but very challenging.
It really is a measure of musicianship because the technical and aesthetic
challenges are both profound with the aesthetic challenge being to keep
the stark yet alluring dissonance alive while also doing a sufficiently
large variety of non-boring (non-obvious, non-linear, nonrepetitive you
get the picture) things. If you want to show how tayyar a musician you
are, you can use Meerkhand techniques to generate taans and do them in odd
virtuosic layas, go hammer the hell out of Pilu and manjh khammaj but
leave Marwa alone ... Marwa is about character and expression, not about
technical virtuosity ... IMO the great Marwas are simple and yet there is
not a note easy about them.
anyway, enuff flamebait for now.
cheers,
rajib
Rajib Doogar www.cba.uiuc.edu/doogar
Arnab Chakrabarty
No point flaming you. Too bad. Your intelligence earns you respect! :)
I agree with you that an instrumental hammering of Marwa is
not a desirable phenomenon, but this is exactly where I am trying
to say something different. An instrumental performance does
not always have to provide the flavor of mangshor jhol. Flavors
like shukto are also desirable, and this is something most of
my
instrumentalist (sarod player) friends do not seem to appreciate.
Also, your elaboration on fiddle technique and Marwa is crisply
delivered (and cleanly as well), although there is absolutely no
similarity with sarod technique based on two facts. The first one
being that you guys use four fingers as opposed to three, and that
the fiddle is much smaller than the sarod.
Emperor's Marwa alap on signature series is simply exquisite - I
gave it a listen right after Praful wrote a bunch of jibberish.
Warm regards,
a
PS: Apologies to the non-Bengalis who will be deprived of the rasaof
my food-related humour. As I am given to understand, Dr. Parrikar might
be able to partake of it.
Jody Stecher
himself, has somehow not been posted by my newsserver. Clicking on the
underlined message number produces no useful results. Could I trouble
someone to repost it so I can know what is being discussed?
Thanks in advance,
Jody Stecher
Jody Stecher
Arnab, what do these new ergonomic sarods look like and how do they sound?
js
Rajan P. Parrikar
>...Marwa is about character and expression, not about
>technical virtuosity ...
Marwa is about listening to Amir Khan and then kneeling
down before the Lord in profound gratitude.
Warm regards,
r
doogar rajib
> Marwa is about listening to Amir Khan and then kneeling
> down before the Lord in profound gratitude.
Amen!
And a question to ponder: When was the last time Amir Khan was heard
doing a Gattling-gun jhala in Marwa? (Apart from the mtp that doing a
jahla for a vocalist would be kinda difficult).
Maintaining some rag-rups does not permit some types of calisthenics
... perhaps recognzing this is rapidly becoming a thing of the past
... hence for some performers, all their ragas sound the same ... "rag
ke muh(n) par randha chalana" is my preferred phrase (stolen from some
unknown oldtimers). Instrument wallahs are more guilty of this than
vocalists of course. But some pahalvan jokers who sing for a living
also fall into this category ... :)
(mtp = minor technical problem)
best,
rajib
--
Rajib Doogar www.cba.uiuc.edu/doogar
doogar rajib
> Also, your elaboration on fiddle technique and Marwa is crisply
> delivered (and cleanly as well), although there is absolutely no
> similarity with sarod technique based on two facts. The first one
> being that you guys use four fingers as opposed to three, and that
> the fiddle is much smaller than the sarod.
I am sure this is right. However, the bigger issue in this whole
business is preserving the right character which then demands both
precision and an advanced aesthetic sense plus the bottom to screw
around in public with something that has already been stamped strongly
by signature performances. Technique one can get with work ... even
the "odd fingerings" came easier today than they did yesterday and I'm
sure they will come easier with more practice ... its how to shake the
images of the other people's MArwa to build one's own image of it that
is so hard. Perhaps that is why famous performers usually do not pick
this as their first choice ... its maybe that its hard to find a new
line of attack after the AK/AAK/RS/MM/Fahimuddin Dagar recordings.
And as a strict vegetarian, I demand chanar dalna, aluposto, mishti
doi and nalen guder shondesh type stuff ... none of this non-veg stuff
for me. Ekei gaan bajna kore jaat gyacche, ebar maach khaiyye
dhommoTao ghuchobe naki? (For the non-Bengalis among us: "As is it
because of my music I have become an out-caste, now by feeding me
non-veg, you want me to lose my religion as well?") :) :)
rajib
Rajib Doogar www.cba.uiuc.edu/doogar
Praful Kelkar
> mailing address so that I may mail to you recordings of three sarodiyas
> who can produce a cleaner, punchier and more imaginative rendition of
> the "faster passages with propensity for besuraness" than Betaj Badshah.
Dear Arnab, thanks for the friendly offer, I will send you the address
in a private email, hopefully won't receive any hate mail or bombs!!
> Now that we are privy to your Amjadophilia, we understand where these
Nahi bhai, no such claims from me. No philia or phobia. I prefer to
acknowledge goodness and not take sides and throw the baby out with
the bathwater.
I would point to his Darbari on the double cd ..lineage or something.
And Bhimpalasi on india archives... you may see what I mean by a
wonderful tone, soorlaness, and such. Take it or leave it. Beyond
that I see no need for glorifying or slashing.
Same for other greats - To me KG was one of the most brilliant
geniuses in h/o ICM ever, and I am sure he too skrewed up many times,
altho' there are kumar-bhaktas who will start a war with you. So you
don't need to defend greatness of BGAK and idolize him, or anyone.
> comments are coming from. It seems like you are a half-cooked sarod
> player yourself without having got the basics right. Again, the supposed
Yes, I must confess. Btw, We are all half-baked, just barely
scratching the surface of ICM greatness at best, so need to fight and
bicker. The real masters are quiet and humble.
I agree with Rajan - it is about listening to greats and surrendering
humbly - marwa, darabari, shree -- rest of the mortals can only mock
at them at best and nothing more.
Rajib, thanks for the input on marwa on violin. Marwa is one of the
most difficult raags for anyone on any instruments or voice, and
probably most feared; and particularly difficult on some instruments.
Praful
naniwadekar
Praful Kelkar <praful...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> I agree with Rajan - it is about listening to greats and surrendering
> humbly - marwa, darabari, shree -- rest of the mortals can only mock
> at them at best and nothing more.
>
that 'the mortals' can (and presumably *do*)
surrender humbly; then you promptly announce
that the rest can *only* mock at them. Your
second clause precludes the possibility that
the rest can surrender humbly, too.
> The real masters are quiet and humble.
>
Is this a joke or something?? The 'real' master
Amjad may be quiet and humble; but since my
idea of 'real master' is Lata-Kishori or Ali
Akbar - Ravi Shankar - Vilayat, it is
difficult to take your statement seriously.
- dn
Praful Kelkar
> >
> Is this a joke or something?? The 'real' master
> Amjad may be quiet and humble; but since my
> idea of 'real master' is Lata-Kishori or Ali
> Akbar - Ravi Shankar - Vilayat, it is
> difficult to take your statement seriously.
We can beat our heads against a brick wall trying to catch a 'real
master' and define how they do or ought to act. The real masters seem
to quibble just as much! Has it always been like that?? Did Amir
Khan quibble, did KG throw childish tantrums, did Allauddin khansaheb
throw around ego-politics? May be they did, and we just tend to
remember idealized images.
Praful
Ramu
i fail to understand in your final conclusion of the "so called"
timeline, where is that "Shri" Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, his father "Shri"
Ustad Hafiz Ali Khan and his grandfather "Shri" Ustad Ghulam Bangegi
Khan Bangash.
how are things otherwise?
ramu!
Arnab Chakrabarty <achakr...@hampshire.edu> wrote in message news:<3B960BF0...@hampshire.edu>...
> --
Arnab Chakrabarty
Khan and Haqdad Khan who were his contemporaries. Their direct contribution to the modern sarod, if any, is not
documented too well, and it might just be limited to their contributions to the initial acts of transporting their
personal rababs to Rewa and Rohilkhand.
In purely empirical terms, the contributions of AmAK have not been as significant as those I have mentioned. HAK was a
great sarod player, no doubt, but in the towering presence of Baba Allauddin, misses a mention in my list, if only rather
narrowly. Also, Bandegi Khan was not HAK's grandfather. Why is the "Betaj Badshah" trying so hard to portray himself so
much closer than is possible, in generational terms, to the origin of the sarod?? So far as I am concerned, thir argument
ends here.
The dolt who has compared AmAK and AAK is making the same mistake of comparing the two artists in today's context. Some
of AAK's finest music was performed and recorded when AmAK was wetting his diapers, so this is not exactly a fair
comparison. AAK is 79 years old. AAK's Shri Raga (alap, jor) from AIR Calcutta (as late as 1966) is a pure marvel. Not a
single AmAK Shri has come close to it. This is only one instance. Well, the moment I master real producer.... heh heh
heh... we'll see some interesting stuff here.
Warm regards,
a