Name of a raga
ga...@my-dejanews.com
I am looking for the name of a raga in HCM which has the same notes as
Bageshri excluding the pancham.
Any help is appreciated!
Gauri
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sanj...@my-dejanews.com
ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello one and all!
>
> I am looking for the name of a raga in HCM which has the same notes as
> Bageshri excluding the pancham.
>
> Any help is appreciated!
>
Two possibilities - one, some folks do drop the pancham altogether in
Bageshri. Then, you also have a Chandrakauns of Bageshri-ang, which also
drops the rishabh (which is weak in Bageshri to begin with).
Corrections/additions welcome,
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Mahesh Velankar
-Mahesh
ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello one and all!
>
> I am looking for the name of a raga in HCM which has the same notes as
> Bageshri excluding the pancham.
>
> Any help is appreciated!
>
> Gauri
su...@i2.com
Mahesh Velankar <mvel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Is it abhogI ?
> -Mahesh
>
> ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Hello one and all!
> >
> > I am looking for the name of a raga in HCM which has the same notes as
> > Bageshri excluding the pancham.
> >
> > Any help is appreciated!
> >
> > Gauri
Missing panchama in Bageshri is not abnormal. There exist versions
of bAgEshri without panchama.. In carnatic, there is a raga with the scale
of bAgEshti without panchama, it is called "SrI ranjani", though the
hindunstani version of the same sounds very different..
The scale of AbOgi lacks nishadha. Raga "Chandrakauns" of
bAgEshrI ang has an equivalent in carnatic music which is
"Shuddha Hindolam".
Does any carnatic listener have an answer to my AbOgi origin question?
I have heard that raga AbOgi was a creation of St. Thyagaraja. Recently,
I heard a composition of Muthuswamy dIkshitar in this raga. Is this not
inconsistent, given that Thyagaraja and DIkshitar never interacted, and
followed different schools of music?
Thanks
Subu
kv...@hotmail.com
>
> Does any carnatic listener have an answer to my AbOgi origin question?
> I have heard that raga AbOgi was a creation of St. Thyagaraja. Recently,
> I heard a composition of Muthuswamy dIkshitar in this raga. Is this not
> inconsistent, given that Thyagaraja and DIkshitar never interacted, and
> followed different schools of music?
>
Is it a fact that Tyagaraja and M.Diksshita never interacted ? It seems very
difficult to imagine with the proximity of the places they lived !
Yes, There is at least of one kriti of and Tyagaraja M.Dikshita in abhOgi.
When it is said that Tyagaraja was the creator of abHogi, it might mean that
he was the first to compose at kriti in it. The scale structure may have been
taken from some older book.
In fact M.Dikshita has made compositions in almost all rAgas described in
muddu Venkatamakhi's rAga lakshaNa.And there are no compositions either
before or after him in some of those rAgas. So composers making compositions
based on textual description is a fact. I do not know if both Tyagaraja
and MD both composed in this rAGa taking it from some lakshaNa grantha.
It is also likely that one of them heard other's composition and was inspired
to compose this kriti.
BTW, whick kriti of MD are you talking about ? I know one "Sri lakshmi
varAham"\ of MD in abhOgi. Do not know if there are any recordings available
of this beautiful kriti.
Will netters put some more light on this matter ?
Ramaprasad K V
achakr...@hampshire.edu
7akpof$fce$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kv...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Does any carnatic listener have an answer to my AbOgi origin question?
> > I have heard that raga AbOgi was a creation of St. Thyagaraja. Recently,
I am not sure if your sources on this are very
accurate because Sri Thyagaraja lived in the
19th century and there have been
Hindustani versions of this raga prior to that.
Many people have argued that Abhogi was
adapted into Hindustani Music from Carnatic
music, but I have serious questions on that.
> > I heard a composition of Muthuswamy dIkshitar in this raga. Is this not
> > inconsistent, given that Thyagaraja and DIkshitar never interacted, and
> > followed different schools of music?
> >
>
> Is it a fact that Tyagaraja and M.Diksshita never interacted ? It seems very
> difficult to imagine with the proximity of the places they lived !
Although I can't say anything about the lives
of these two saints of the south, one can say
for sure that the hype and stories brought
down to us by the oral traditions are not
always very accurate. For me, it has been a
very difficult process to cross many rivers of
"mythification" in my own research..... . . . You
definitely have a very potent question there,
sir!
In fact, there are some dhrupads in that raga,
if I recall correctly, from the Talwandi
Gharana (Kandhar bani).
Srinivasd
>I have heard that raga AbOgi was a creation of St. Thyagaraja. Recently,
>I heard a composition of Muthuswamy dIkshitar in this raga. Is this not
>inconsistent, given that Thyagaraja and DIkshitar never interacted, and
>followed different schools of music?
Theoretically there could be about 53 pentatonics besides abhOgi for expressing
the [~N, ~P] restriction.
[the fun part is given that bhOgi is already the opposite of yOgi, all that
between can be prefixed with the various sounds of devanAgari alphabet starting
with "a" sound; so if Mr.T chose "a" prefix, Mr.D could choose "aa" (to make it
very close) or about 1000 prefixes....the limit of which is yOgi ;-]
Raman Arunachalam
> varAham"\ of MD in abhOgi. Do not know if there are any recordings available
> of this beautiful kriti.
>
There is a new HMV double cassette "Divine Unison, Semmangudi and MS
Subbulakshmi".
The first song is Sri lakshmi varAham, and the second one is the Thodi
swarajathi.
A very nice kutcheri.
Srinivasd
>Many people have argued that Abhogi was
>adapted into Hindustani Music from Carnatic
>music, but I have serious questions on that.
I'd rather make this a cross-post to SCI.telugu if there was a way (damn
automoderator!). Andhra pradesh celebrates a festival called "bhOgi" each year
following sankrAnti and almost every telugu kid goes through 'bhOgi prasanna'.
[(OTOH, my time spent elsewhere did not reveal anything that profound but
railway bogies ;-); of course, a bogey has much use in golf too :^]
oudhava ragams like abhOgi could be discovered by almost anyone independently
on some musical instruments with some persistence. However, popularizing it is
more difficult. A Patnam Subramani Iyer's (circa 1900) abhOgi creation "evari
bOdhana" has much merit in the pallavi and anupallavi but loses steam in the
charanam.
I hope this thread originated as a graha bEdam in abhOgi. If the Hindusthani
Music has one, then look forward to it.
Default User
kv...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> It is also likely that one of them heard other's composition and was inspired
> to compose this kriti.
>
>
I have heard a story that Gopalakrishna Bharathi met St. Thyagaraja during which
time Thyagaraja proudly presented his composition in Abhogi to him asking if he
has composed any in this ragam. (Must have been a rare ragam at that time to
have brought about such a discussion.) Taking that as a challenge, the story
goes, Gopalakrishna Bharathi composed "SabhApatikku vEru Deivam" overnight and
sang it to the saint the very next day. If this is true, there is grounds to
believe that the contemporary composers did have opportunities to learn about
each other's compositions and add to their repertoire...
Sridhar
sanj...@my-dejanews.com
srin...@aol.com (Srinivasd) wrote:
> >achakr...@hampshire.edu
> >Many people have argued that Abhogi was
> >adapted into Hindustani Music from Carnatic
> >music, but I have serious questions on that.
>
> oudhava ragams like abhOgi could be discovered by almost anyone independently
> on some musical instruments with some persistence. However, popularizing it is
> more difficult. A Patnam Subramani Iyer's (circa 1900) abhOgi creation "evari
> bOdhana" has much merit in the pallavi and anupallavi but loses steam in the
> charanam.
Good point. What about Gopakrishna Bharatiyar's "Sabhapatikku Vera Daivam
Samanamagumaa" - another quite popular piece that's been around IIRC for at
least a full century.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
moort...@hotmail.com
Gopalakrishna Bharathi did not meet Sri Thyagaraja. Rather when he went to
Thiruvayyaru, he met direct disciples of Thyagaraja and was inspired to
compose that famous song in Abhogi after hearing a krithi in Aghogi of
Thyagaraja. Gopalakrishna Bharathi and Thyagaraja were not contemporaries
Arunkumar Sridharan
is clear that GB met Thyagaraja. Thyagaraja's pupils were singing an
Aboghi kriti that day which prompted Thyagaraja to ask GB if he had any
comositions in that Ragam. He then invited GB to have lunch that day.
GB then is supposed to have gone to the Panchanadeeshwara Temple and it
was there he composed the famous "Sabhapatikku" Before having lunch he
asked Thyagaraja's permission to present the new kriti before him.
This apparently has been told by GB to his shishyas and thus the info
has passed, so there must be some truth in it.
--
Arun
madhav
There is another incident to this episode. Ty composed Jayamanohari
kriti - after he listend to GB.As you know Jayamanohari is a cross
between Abhogi and Sriranjani.Ty is the one-who developed this new raga
at that time.
Ashok Madhav
subu_ram...@my-dejanews.com
sanj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <19990220210528...@ng-fc1.aol.com>,
> srin...@aol.com (Srinivasd) wrote:
> > >achakr...@hampshire.edu
> > >Many people have argued that Abhogi was
> > >adapted into Hindustani Music from Carnatic
> > >music, but I have serious questions on that.
>
What is your argument to "seriously question that" anyway?
> >
> > oudhava ragams like abhOgi could be discovered by almost anyone independently
> > on some musical instruments with some persistence. However, popularizing it is
> > more difficult.
I do not think that "oudhava ragams could be discovered by almost
anyone" is not a convincing enough argument that raga AbhOgi might
not have been borrowed from carnatic. You can say that about nearly
any pentatonic raga. There are several pentatonic scales which
existed all along and discovered by people at various times
"independently", if you like.
If raga AbhOgi was discovered independently in hindustani and
carnatic music, why should they have the same name? We could
have had a different name like "sohini" for hamsanandi and
"bhupali" for mohanam, "malkauns" for hindolam, etc.
Every raga that migrated one way or another has retained its name:
"desh", "bageshri","brindavani", "charukesi", "keeravani" are some
examples.
Let me ask my question differently: What is the present knowledge
on how old raga AbhOgi is? Is there any talk about this raga in old
books?
Subu
Srinivasd
>If raga AbhOgi was discovered independently in hindustani and
>carnatic music, why should they have the same name?
[ 'Guess the one with "serious questions" is on a music faculty patAO trip ;-]
Is having the same name a disqualifier?
>[Abhogi] could
>have had a different name like "sohini" for hamsanandi and
>"bhupali" for mohanam, "malkauns" for hindolam, etc.
>Every raga that migrated one way or another has retained its name:
>"desh", "bageshri","brindavani", "charukesi", "keeravani" are some
>examples.
The above is not the final word. Taking the equivalence of bhUpli and mOhanam,
one can still ask are the carnatic swarams [s.r.g.p.d.n] and HM swaras exactly
the same in both Arohan and avarOhanam, and further across the compositions.
carnatic rAgAs modified by HM have anyaswara notes in the muktAyi or chitta
passages. abhOgi as given in carnatic texts doesn't seem to have such
anyaswarams.
>Let me ask my question differently: What is the present knowledge
>on how old raga AbhOgi is?
Atleast two centuries old.
>Is there any talk about this raga in old
>books?
How old boogey you want to read? ;-)
subu_ram...@my-dejanews.com
srin...@aol.com (Srinivasd) wrote:
> subu_ram...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >If raga AbhOgi was discovered independently in hindustani and
> >carnatic music, why should they have the same name?
>
> [ 'Guess the one with "serious questions" is on a music faculty patAO trip ;-]
>
> Is having the same name a disqualifier?
>
Hello,
Please note that my question above is a response to someone's suggestion
that AbhOgi may not have been borrowed from carnatic to hindustani. As a
follow up on this thread, I do not understand your point.
> >[Abhogi] could
> >have had a different name like "sohini" for hamsanandi and
> >"bhupali" for mohanam, "malkauns" for hindolam, etc.
> >Every raga that migrated one way or another has retained its name:
> >"desh", "bageshri","brindavani", "charukesi", "keeravani" are some
> >examples.
>
> The above is not the final word. Taking the equivalence of bhUpli and mOhanam,
> one can still ask are the carnatic swarams [s.r.g.p.d.n] and HM swaras exactly
> the same in both Arohan and avarOhanam, and further across the compositions.
>
> carnatic rAgAs modified by HM have anyaswara notes in the muktAyi or chitta
> passages. abhOgi as given in carnatic texts doesn't seem to have such
> anyaswarams.
I agree with you that raga X in carnatic and its equivalent raga Y in
hindustani may have developed different structures. I suspect that the topic
of discussion is different. My suggestion is that if ( X == Y ) then there is
reason to believe that it was borrowed one way or another.
Most people may agree that hindustani AbhOgi today is the same as
carnatic AbhOgi today. Same goes for ragas like brindavani. There
are several ragas which "became" different. Keeravani is a good
example. That does not mean that they "might have developed
independently".
DGandikota
>Most people may agree that hindustani AbhOgi today is the same as
>carnatic AbhOgi today.
Or vice versa
>Same goes for ragas like brindavani. There
>are several ragas which "became" different. Keeravani is a good
>example.
Why? The answer should also reveal the motivations of people to rename
something as innocuous as a rAga.
>That does not mean that they "might have developed
>independently".
Music is often said to be 'universal language.' That means frequencies and
wavelengths can be generated almost anywhere with a vibrating body and a medium
to transport them.