blackstar...how overrated are they?
underwor...@my-dejanews.com
say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
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Infinite
> beats are so fucking basic...i could forgive redefinition if mos def didn't
> say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
> hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
I have only heard "Definition" by BlackStar and it's bangin'... Hi Tek
refreaked the "P Is Free" beat by BDP lovely and the reworking of "Stop The
Violence" by BDP for the hook was pretty fresh... I thought both cats ripped
it... Talib is mad gifted as a lyricist... Mos Def is probably one of the most
refreshing MCs on the scene simply because of his personna... Amazing crew,
can't wait for the EP... There's a new cut on Sandbox I have yet to peep...
OH, and while I'm thinking about it... I bought the OK reprint double LP from
Sandbox for what it's worth (talked about in a thread back a couple of
weeks)... There are a couple extra freestyles and Caz talks on a cut... Also,
"Tender Verses" is on there... Originally, it was remix done by OK for a group
called Attica Blues known as the "Tender (Remix)"... The vinyl was mad limited
and I'm glad to have gotten a copy... Anyway, it came out before the
disappointing "Equinox" and might just be one of Monch's most incredible
performances on wax... A MUST HAVE...
Chill,
Infinite
k. orr
underwor...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> beats are so fucking basic...i could forgive redefinition if mos def didn't
> say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
> hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
to be ignored.
And if I remember my history correctly, BlackStar line was part
of the UNIA (Marcus Garvey's group). It's kinda ill to have name
your group about a movement that wanted to get away from white dollars,
and do for self on the economic tip. Intellectually dishonest.
k. orr
Wise Rebel
>say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
>hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
What are you talking about?
Wise
"I tend to spend, hours on end behind a pen." - Yeshua
Wise Rebel
>I have only heard "Definition" by BlackStar and it's bangin'... Hi Tek
>refreaked the "P Is Free" beat by BDP lovely and the reworking of "Stop The
>Violence" by BDP for the hook was pretty fresh... I thought both cats ripped
>it... Talib is mad gifted as a lyricist... Mos Def is probably one of the
>most refreshing MCs on the scene simply because of his personna...
>Amazing crew, can't wait for the EP... There's a new cut on Sandbox
>I have yet to peep...
Man, that remix with Wordsworth is dope! Who produced that?
It's really dark. Doesn't really sound like Hi Tek, and definately
not Shawn J. I'm gonna have to buy that 12" just for the instrumental.
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
> I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
> what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
> jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
> to be ignored.
OK, so we're hypocrites, but personally, I see the difference like this:
Mos Def and Talib Kweli are NOT wack on the mic. Puffy and Mase are.
If I'm gonna listen to a jack it better at least have some good lyrics!
> And if I remember my history correctly, BlackStar line was part
> of the UNIA (Marcus Garvey's group). It's kinda ill to have name
> your group about a movement that wanted to get away from white dollars,
> and do for self on the economic tip. Intellectually dishonest.
True, Marcus Garvey was the first thing I thought of... but we can't
ASSUME on their behalf that was what it referenced. How do we know
they aren't "Black Stars" shining brightly over the wack mediocrity?
There are many possible interpretations.
--
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash: "Gettin hip -- on the mothership"
Author: RFD and CFV --> rec.music.hip-hop E-Mail --> remove 'nospam'
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AlanPage
>hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
So, you're saying there's not enough violence in hip-hop? That's pretty silly.
Peace,
Spirit
Amphibians' debut single "Lettuce (Entertain You)" b/w "Journey" will be
dropping August 9th on vinyl and cassettes. E-mail me for more info, you don't
want to miss this joint...
AlanPage
>your group about a movement that wanted to get away from white dollars,<BR>
>and do for self on the economic tip. Intellectually dishonest.
Are you saying you have a problem with them being on the (mostly) white owned
Rawkus label (I think Blak Shawn, who is black, owns a third of the label)?
Brand Nubian was on 100% white owned Electra records when they were spitting
their nationalist rhymes. Do you see the same intellectual dishonesty there?
AlanPage
>what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat<BR>
>jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems<BR>
>to be ignored.
Oh, to comment on this. The difference is simple. It has to do with how you
creatively approach a song. I think Blackstar approached that beat with the
concept of "How can we creatively flip this beat into a whole new song, to make
our stamp on this beat" whereas Puffy said IMO "let me get radio play and love
by jacking this popular beat". The intent is different and Blackstar flipped
the beat into a new song much better than Puffy did.
Good MCing doesn't hurt either.
I loved the Def Squad's remake of Rapper's Delight. They came to it with a lot
of energy, which Puffy seems to lack in his approach to "remakes".
k.orr
>Are you saying you have a problem with them being on the (mostly) white owned
>Rawkus label (I think Blak Shawn, who is black, owns a third of the label)?
>Brand Nubian was on 100% white owned Electra records when they were spitting
>their nationalist rhymes. Do you see the same intellectual dishonesty there?
>
>Peace,
Although I think there is a difference between 1989-91 Brand Nubian and
Black Star, I do see the same intellectual dishonesty.
k. orr
k.orr
>Oh, to comment on this. The difference is simple. It has to do with how you
>creatively approach a song. I think Blackstar approached that beat with the
>concept of "How can we creatively flip this beat into a whole new song, to make
>our stamp on this beat" whereas Puffy said IMO "let me get radio play and love
>by jacking this popular beat". The intent is different and Blackstar flipped
>the beat into a new song much better than Puffy did.
This is the kinda statement I normally tear into, because the logic is well
wishy washy, but I'll let someone else speak upon it, since this topic
is one i've hit 1001 times.
>I loved the Def Squad's remake of Rapper's Delight. They came to it with a lot
>of energy, which Puffy seems to lack in his approach to "remakes".
>
>Peace,
>
>Spirit
I can't resist.
You know I got love for you Spirit, but how do you quantify, hell qualify
"energy"?
Desperately awaiting your response
your rmhh friendly adversary
k. orr
B. David Harrison
> k. orr wrote:
> > I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
> > what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
> > jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
> > to be ignored.
>
> OK, so we're hypocrites, but personally, I see the difference like this:
> Mos Def and Talib Kweli are NOT wack on the mic. Puffy and Mase are.
> If I'm gonna listen to a jack it better at least have some good lyrics!
Word. I believe Kari has always identified himself as a "lyrics head",
the beat might be a jack move (but Alan had some really good points about
that as well), but lyrically (I'm assuming, because I haven't heard it,
but I know the MCs are dope, and that's what everbody is saying) the song
is tight. If you can rip it over yet another "More Bounce To The Ounce"
best, and still come off like Mos Def, fuck it, do it.
David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"Life ain't a game, so why you want to be a player?" - Khujo
Sandlz
>>I loved the Def Squad's remake of Rapper's Delight. They came to it with a
lot
>>of energy, which Puffy seems to lack in his approach to "remakes".
>>
>>Peace,
>>
>>Spirit
I agree. Also, the remake of Rapper's Delight was done specifically for an
album of old school remakes.
Peace
Sandlz
T. Tauri
>
> k. orr wrote:
> > your group about a movement that wanted to get away from white
> > dishonest.
>
> ASSUME on their behalf that was what it referenced. How do we know
> they aren't "Black Stars" shining brightly over the wack mediocrity?
> There are many possible interpretations.
I can assume it. No doubt in my mind that Black Star Line is the primary
reference.
Peece,
T. Tauri
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
because the lyrics are better. You'd never hear Puff kick something
like "my name is in the middle of e-quali-ty" (Talib Kweli) in a jam.
Not in a million years. So eff the jacked beat and massage your
passions for hip-hop on the lyrics; cause they're the bomb.
Jonathan Dean Ripp wrote:
> Jacking is jacking. You can't have it both ways (One's bad cuz its
> commercial, the other is good cuz it's "fresh"). That's why I can't
> like "Defination", no matter how good the lyrics are, they're doing the
> same thing P. Diddy does.
>
> Ripp
> www.rmhh.com
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
it for claiming "Independent as Fuck" when Daddy Warbucks Murdoch is
financing Rawkus from behind the scenes. Nothing is sacred and you
know that as much as I. In this case however, I think you're WRONG.
DEAD WRONG. I don't understand how you can love GangStarr so much
and diss Blackstar; don't get me wrong Guru is the bomb and Primo is
lovely but Talib Kweli is and no offense to Guru TEN TIMES THE EMCEE
that he will ever be LIFETIME, and Mos Def ain't no f'n slouch either.
I don't usually get this defensive but I'm sorry, Mos Def and Talib
Kweli are not the Puffy and the Mase of the underground. UNLIKE them,
they are not trying to pass off some wack commercial shit as REAL
hip-hop music. UNLIKE them, they have not spawned a whole genre of
wack monotonal imitators who steal 80's *POP* music beats for hits.
UNLIKE them, they don't SUCK.
Andrew Ryall wrote:
> It's not ignored, it's passed off as "talent". I dislike this
> group, particularily because they're undeserving of this
> extremely positive buzz. I made a post a month or two back
> calling them "the puffy and mase of the underground" and hella
> kids jumped down my throat. People just see these 'underground
> saviour' types as untouchable.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Andrew Ryall duh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh
> MUN Business Student FISHING!
> www.ucs.mun.ca/~v65arr -Homer Simpson
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> support quality hip hop on the internet - www.makeme.com/1200
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
Where are you going to draw the line? Was it a travesty when
the Bomb Squad sampled James Brown or Jimi Hendrix? Was it a
travesty when Erick Sermon used Zapp? Was it a travesty when
De La Soul used Hall and Oates? I'd like to know what exactly
your definition of a "travesty" is when Mos Def and Talib Kweli
are probably using a song that was a SAMPLE of something in the
very FIRST place. Travesty my ass.
Anybody who brings a Criminal Minded beat back to the limelight
IS the shit.
Anybody who pays tribute to the legacy of Boogie Down Productions
IS the shit.
Anybody who can use a classic old school beat that well with some
tight ass lyrics IS the shit.
Puff Daddy and Mase? They ARE shit. The REAL travesty was that
they took an 80's hip-hop classic and not only RHYMED over it but
added insult to injury by singing the chorus of "Breaking My Stride"
OVER _The Message_ as a HOOK! As their FUCKING CHORUS! Hell letting
Puffy sing at ANY time is a travesty in itself! That is the most
atonal musically deaf rhythmically challenged vocally retarded
wishing-he-was-Marvin-Gaye muh'fucka I *ever* heard on the mic
when he sings, EVER! I can't understand how ANYBODY could call
Lauryn Hill wack after hearing THAT! She may not be the greatest
voice of all time but in comparison she's a fucking DIVA baby!
Andrew Ryall wrote:
> A test where you get 50% is better than 40%, but it's still a failure.
> Just because someone commits a travesty with decent lyrics doesn't
> make it right.
Jonathan Dean Ripp
: >I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing<BR>
: >what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat<BR>
: >jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems<BR>
: >to be ignored.
: Oh, to comment on this. The difference is simple. It has to do with how you
: creatively approach a song. I think Blackstar approached that beat with the
: concept of "How can we creatively flip this beat into a whole new song, to make
: our stamp on this beat" whereas Puffy said IMO "let me get radio play and love
: by jacking this popular beat". The intent is different and Blackstar flipped
: the beat into a new song much better than Puffy did.
Jacking is jacking. You can't have it both ways (One's bad cuz its
Tza79
They said that the name came from a few sources.. like the name of Marcus
Garvey's ship line, from being black and famous.. and something else i forgot
dls
>Jacking is jacking. You can't have it both ways (One's bad cuz its
>commercial, the other is good cuz it's "fresh"). That's why I can't
>like "Defination", no matter how good the lyrics are, they're doing the
>same thing P. Diddy does.
No disrespect, but you're buggin'!!!! Doesn't the relation btw
lyrics and music/beats count for anything?? "Definition" is
mad tight, kid.
peace,
dls
Wise Rebel
>Jacking is jacking. You can't have it both ways (One's bad cuz its
>commercial, the other is good cuz it's "fresh"). That's why I can't
>like "Defination", no matter how good the lyrics are, they're doing the
>same thing P. Diddy does.
I'm still trying to figuar out why Puff picked "The Message". And why heads
seemed to like to dance to it. I mean, it's a dope beat. But I can see a club
getting hype over "The P Is Free/Definition" way before "The Message/Can't
Hold Me Down".
Andrew Ryall
: In article <6olvh5$u9o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: underwor...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
: what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
: jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
: to be ignored.
It's not ignored, it's passed off as "talent". I dislike this
group, particularily because they're undeserving of this
extremely positive buzz. I made a post a month or two back
calling them "the puffy and mase of the underground" and hella
kids jumped down my throat. People just see these 'underground
saviour' types as untouchable.
Andrew Ryall
: So why respond to the jacking issue? Definition is a better song
: because the lyrics are better.
A test where you get 50% is better than 40%, but it's still a failure.
Just because someone commits a travesty with decent lyrics doesn't
make it right.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tim.
AlanPage <alan...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199807171631...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing<BR>
> >what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat<BR>
> >jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems<BR>
> >to be ignored.
>
> Oh, to comment on this. The difference is simple. It has to do with how
you
> creatively approach a song. I think Blackstar approached that beat with
the
> concept of "How can we creatively flip this beat into a whole new song,
to make
> our stamp on this beat" whereas Puffy said IMO "let me get radio play and
love
> by jacking this popular beat". The intent is different and Blackstar
flipped
> the beat into a new song much better than Puffy did.
>
> Good MCing doesn't hurt either.
Yeah, there's a difference between a group using a beat once in a while and
someone who does it CONSTANTLY and will continue (and is wack anyway :) )
> I loved the Def Squad's remake of Rapper's Delight. They came to it with
a lot
> of energy, which Puffy seems to lack in his approach to "remakes".
And besides, that was for a compilation of remakes.
But let's not start another EPMD debate ;)
"We have this thing we do with our voices. We sing like authentic rappers!"
-some rich guy freestylin' at the Fortune 500 Club
Wise Rebel
good the song is. Personally I think "Definition" is much better than
"Can't Hold Me Down". I also think that the Rappers Delight remix was
wack. When it comes down to it, the question is the music good? Because
I seriously doubt Mos Def, Kweli, Puffy, or Mase are trying to disrespect the
previous artists.
Wise Rebel
Flash, I was with you until you dissed Guru.
I agree that Kweli is a better MC than Guru. But Guru can do things
Kweli can't, vise sersa.
>Fuck untouchable, anybody can be checked. Hell, Company Flow deserves
>it for claiming "Independent as Fuck" when Daddy Warbucks Murdoch is
>financing Rawkus from behind the scenes. Nothing is sacred and you
>know that as much as I. In this case however, I think you're WRONG.
>DEAD WRONG. I don't understand how you can love GangStarr so much
>and diss Blackstar; don't get me wrong Guru is the bomb and Primo is
>lovely but Talib Kweli is and no offense to Guru TEN TIMES THE EMCEE
>that he will ever be LIFETIME, and Mos Def ain't no f'n slouch either.
>I don't usually get this defensive but I'm sorry, Mos Def and Talib
>Kweli are not the Puffy and the Mase of the underground. UNLIKE them,
>they are not trying to pass off some wack commercial shit as REAL
>hip-hop music. UNLIKE them, they have not spawned a whole genre of
>wack monotonal imitators who steal 80's *POP* music beats for hits.
>UNLIKE them, they don't SUCK.
Wise
Aztec-Assassin
chorous "it's kinda dangerous to be an emcee" is plain retarded. You'd
think Mos Def and Talib had brains but instead they gotta be like c.
delores tucker...blaming HIP-HOP for the deaths of a FEW mcs??? Murder is
not an occupational hazard for being an mc. Why don't we flip it..
how many emcees are still alive? even after losing the spotlight? WAAAY
more than the deceased. and they want to make a shirt????
they need to quit placing themselves on such a pedestal...most likely they
will not die because they are an mc. unless we get back into that
cointel assassination type ish...but they ain't pushin' enough units to be
considered that dangerous ;)
pce-out,
============THE HIP-HOP ZONE===========
TUES 10-11pm Community Cable Channel 27
New Mexico's ONLY hip-hop video show
Andrew Arellano hip...@unm.edu
http://www.unm.edu/~hiphop
======= Aztec-Wreck Productions (c) ====
Infinite
> group, particularily because they're undeserving of this
> extremely positive buzz. I made a post a month or two back
> calling them "the puffy and mase of the underground" and hella
> kids jumped down my throat. People just see these 'underground
> saviour' types as untouchable.
>
Taken into perspective... BlackStar is better than anything on the
Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
fucked shit up more than any label can)... They're part of Rawkus which
consistently puts out the dopest indy hip hop out there... And on Rawkus,
they're one of the nicest...
I don't see how they're not deserving of their praise... Kweli is an
incredible MC and Mos Def is one of the most refreshing kids to grab a
mic in awhile... His honesty and old school type of "lets just rock the
party" type vibe was sorely needed...
Onto the "jacking" bullshit... There IS a difference between how Puff
freaks remakes and Hi Tek did... Puff DOES NOTHING to a track... He pulls
the bassline from Treacherous Three's "Body Rock" for Mariah Carey and
duplicates it, doing NOTHING to make it his own... What makes a Puffy
track a Puffy track??? Other than his wack ass crew rhyming, it's his
bullshit I-vicked-Pete-Rock-talking-behind-the-beat stuff he does...
BlackStar REFREAKED the sample... It was chopped a bit and resequenced...
PUFFY WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!! Then, to make it even doper, they threw in
the "Stop the Violence" chorus from BDP and updated it, almost as if to
say, "KRS rocked this in 89 and shit still hasn't changed"...
I understand if you're against the whole reusin' hip hop for whatever
reasons you have... Personally, I can dig it if it's done well (like
Blackstar did)... But the whole bullshit about Blackstar bein' the Puff
and Mase of the underground is RIDICULOUS and makes you sound like an
ass...
Keep shit in perspective and maybe if you weren't working for RawShack
and on the dick of their artists, you could see the light...
Chill,
Infinite
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
>
> "The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash" writes:
>
> Flash, I was with you until you dissed Guru.
It's not a diss per se. I love Guru; in fact I bought *everything* the
guy every laid his vocals on including "Bust a Move/To Be a Champion"
(how many GangStarr fans have that?) so it's strictly love love. In
terms of what he can do with a mic though, he and Kweli are on
completely different levels. Guru has the calm, the smooth vocal tone,
the personal wisdom, the hip-hop love. Kweli has the hype, the clever
wordplay, the mad intellect, the hip-hop love. They're both great, just
in different ways. Kweli does things LYRICALLY that Guru can't do.
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
hip-hop, they're blaming the forces at work AGAINST hip-hop. If you
were to ask me, the reason "it's kinda dangerous to be an MC" has
nothing to do with the fans, the artists, or the business -- it has
EVERYTHING to do with AmeriKKKa's attitude towards hip-hop.
Hasn't anybody thought it funny that both Tupac Shakur and Christopher
Wallace's murders are STILL unsolved? Or that the FBI was there in both
cases? I'm not claiming conspiracy, but you have to wonder..
Aztec-Assassin wrote:
>
> I love definition/re-definition to death but I must say that that the
> chorous "it's kinda dangerous to be an emcee" is plain retarded. You'd
> think Mos Def and Talib had brains but instead they gotta be like c.
> delores tucker...blaming HIP-HOP
--
Wise Rebel
>I agree that Kweli is a better MC than Guru. But Guru can do things
>Kweli can't, vise sersa.
Oh shit! Did I just say vise "sersa"?
Wise Rebel
>Taken into perspective... BlackStar is better than anything on the
>Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
>mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
>than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
>fucked shit up more than any label can)... They're part of Rawkus which
>consistently puts out the dopest indy hip hop out there... And on Rawkus,
>they're one of the nicest...
Now I love Black Star, but that's "your" opinion. I agree that Kweli is a
great MC, but I wouldn't say he was miles above J Live, Yeshua, Siah,
Brewin, J Treds, MF Doom etc.
>Keep shit in perspective and maybe if you weren't working for RawShack
>and on the dick of their artists, you could see the light...
He works for Rawshack?
Wise Rebel
>Fuck untouchable, anybody can be checked. Hell, Company Flow deserves
>it for claiming "Independent as Fuck" when Daddy Warbucks Murdoch is
>financing Rawkus from behind the scenes.
Don't they have their own label titled Official?
That's the label the Indelible records were released on, and I see the title
beside Rawkus on their other releases. Isn't this similar to what Master P
did with Priority? And people consider him Independent (don't they)?
Correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am).
Regardless, I could give a fuck if an artist is signed to loud or fondle em.
From what I see the artists on Rawkus have complete creative control
over their work. Which is all I really care about (the actual music).
T. Tauri
>
> AlanPage (alan...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> >K.Orr wrote:
> >>I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
>
>> Oh, to comment on this. The difference is simple. It has to do with
>> how you creatively approach a song. I think Blackstar approached
>> that beat with the concept of "How can we creatively flip this beat
>> into a whole new song, to make our stamp on this beat" whereas Puffy
>> said IMO "let me get radio play and love by jacking this popular
>> beat". The intent is different and Blackstar flipped the beat into a
>> new song much better than Puffy did.
>
> commercial, the other is good cuz it's "fresh"). That's why I can't
> like "Defination", no matter how good the lyrics are, they're doing
> the same thing P. Diddy does.
It's a matter of degree. Honestly, if it were raining outside, and I
asked some of you cats "well, how heavy is it?"--you'd say "rain is
rain." But in matters of sampling, we're like Eskimos with their
enormous vocabulary of terms for precipitation. It's like this: the
difference between a wedding dj and a club dj isn't that one plays
classics and the other doesn't. It's that the wedding dj ONLY plays
classics. Let's look at other Hi-Tek productions and play name that
sample:
2000 Seasons?
Fortified Live?
Karma?
Manifesto?
Info for the Streets?
Tunnel Bound?
Millenium?
Illuminated Sunlight?
Kari, do I need to explain context to you? :-)
Peece,
T. Tauri
Jonathan Dean Ripp
: I don't see how they're not deserving of their praise... Kweli is an
: incredible MC and Mos Def is one of the most refreshing kids to grab a
: mic in awhile... His honesty and old school type of "lets just rock the
: party" type vibe was sorely needed...
I agree 100% with this, I was looking foward toward they're collabo
untill...
: Onto the "jacking" bullshit... There IS a difference between how Puff
: freaks remakes and Hi Tek did... Puff DOES NOTHING to a track... He pulls
: the bassline from Treacherous Three's "Body Rock" for Mariah Carey and
: duplicates it, doing NOTHING to make it his own... What makes a Puffy
: track a Puffy track??? Other than his wack ass crew rhyming, it's his
: bullshit I-vicked-Pete-Rock-talking-behind-the-beat stuff he does...
: BlackStar REFREAKED the sample... It was chopped a bit and resequenced...
: PUFFY WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!! Then, to make it even doper, they threw in
: the "Stop the Violence" chorus from BDP and updated it, almost as if to
: say, "KRS rocked this in 89 and shit still hasn't changed"...
...they did defination. Why have the first song you have be a remake (F'
real, they hardly switched up the beat, same shit da Poof Duddy does) with
some good lyrics and great chemistry?
It's not like I won't be picking up the ep when it comes out but I just
get upset because I know all the "real" heads who critisize Puffy's
jacking are on the dick of this song.
The only saving grace is that they didn't sell this single for $$$, at
least not yet.
Ripp
www.rmhh.com
Spirit68
>wishy washy, but I'll let someone else speak upon it, since this topic<BR>
>is one i've hit 1001 times.
No, by all means, I love discussions. I'm different from a lot of folks in that
I like people pointing out perceived flaws in my logic. That helps me stay
sharp. So, fire away.
>You know I got love for you Spirit, but how do you quantify, hell qualify<BR>
>"energy"?
Simple. Listen to Puffy's flow and Listen to Redman's flow. Which voice has
more emotion invested into it? It is opinion, of course, but I think it can be
quantified if you sat down and compared the voices of say, 25 MCs, and made a
scale from most energetic to lethargic.
To be scientific, you could measure Puffy and Redman's respective pulses while
they rap and see which one's pulse appears to indicate the more strenuous
exertion. ;-)
>your rmhh friendly adversary
As long as it's friendly. <smile>
Peace,
Spirit
Spread Love/Amphibians
The Amphibians' debut single "Lettuce (Entertain You)" b/w "Journey" will be
available August 9th, on vinyl ($5) and cassettes ($3), add $2 for
shipping/handling. E-mail me for more details...
Spirit68
>cuz it's "fresh").
I want you to rethink that statement, for the following reason.
90% of all hip-hop production is based on sampling, either through replaying
breaks are actually sampling them through a machine. So, yes, you can say "That
was a fresh way to sample/replay that break" vs. "That was a wack way to
sample/replay that break". This is how we do a critical discourse on most
hip-hop beats.
Thank you for your full cooperation and your total attention. These were a few
things that I had to mention.
Spirit68
>extremely positive buzz.
I'm sorry, was Blackstar on the cover of the Source? What "extremely positive
buzz"? Be realistic and see things in perspective. Canibus is getting buzz.
Blackstar has the underground heads talking.
>I made a post a month or two back<BR>
>calling them "the puffy and mase of the underground" and hella<BR>
>kids jumped down my throat.
That's because you made an overstatement. By any measuring stick, Talib and Mos
Def are FAR better MCs than Puffy or Mase.
Before you judge Blackstar, wait till you hear more songs. I have five and
"Definition" is the weakest of the five, and I like "Definition". Hi-Tek does
some amazing things on production here and Talib and Mos Def's lyrics are on
point. Keep an open ear...
Spirit68
Yes.
>Isn't this similar to what Master P<BR>
>did with Priority?
Yes.
>And people consider him Independent (don't they)?
Yes. Although they really shouldn't. Compare Rawkus to Priority. Clearly Rawkus
should be called the indie and Priority the major in that equation, just be
looking at the level of distribution Priority has and the massive number of
units they move annually.
>From what I see the artists on Rawkus have complete creative control<BR>
>over their work.
They do.
And I hear Co Flow either owns their masters or will own them when, or if, they
split from Rawkus.
Spirit68
>than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live
Actually, I think J-Live is nicer than Kweli, but to each their own.
Wise Rebel
>Actually, I think J-Live is nicer than Kweli, but to each their own.
As artists I think I like them about the same. They do different things.
But if you want to compare work, I think the material Kweli has done is
better than the stuff J Live has done. But I might change my opinion if
J Live ever drops another single. What's the deal? He is easily Rawshack's
most anticipated artist. You would think they would be busting their asses
to get his record out.
Infinite
> >Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
> >mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
> >than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
> >fucked shit up more than any label can)... They're part of Rawkus which
> >consistently puts out the dopest indy hip hop out there... And on Rawkus,
> >they're one of the nicest...
>
> Now I love Black Star, but that's "your" opinion. I agree that Kweli is a
> great MC, but I wouldn't say he was miles above J Live, Yeshua, Siah,
> Brewin, J Treds, MF Doom etc.
Of course it's "my" opinion, whose else's would it be??? And I NEVER said he
is "miles" above any of those kids... I probably should've been more clear
when I was comparing Kweli to Fondle Em artists... I meant those that have put
out shit lately (i.e. Nuthouse, MHz, Grimm, etc...) I don't consider Treds
(who I like better than Talib) as a part of Fondle Em until that cut they had
on Sandbox awhile back comes out (or anything for that matter)... MF Doom was
nicer as Zev Love X in my opinion... Breezly Brewin might be better than Kweli
also, but the Juggaknots haven't put out ANYTHING for over two years now...
Brew has been on three or four cuts, that's it... Siah's last joint is a lil
old too... Give me "Manifesto" over Siah's 12" (as DOPE as Siah's single was,
don't get me wrong)... J Live is cool, but I think he falls a little short...
But that's just "my" opinion...
> >Keep shit in perspective and maybe if you weren't working for RawShack
> >and on the dick of their artists, you could see the light...
>
> He works for Rawshack?
Yeah...
Chill,
Infinite
Satoru Ogawa
saying here, except for Nuthouse's new single which I thought was ill. The
B-sides were the best. I dont think Id put it above Kweli or Words though.
Also on J-Live, have you heard this freestyle he did on some mixtape, its
real ill, he takes like this lawyer stance and starts bringing up terms like
"jurisdiction" etc in "the court of hiphop" "The Live litigator closing the
case tighter than the jaws of a gator"
--
The Discriminating Hiphop Connoisseur..
Satoru
Infinite wrote in message <35B160B3...@erols.com>...
Andrew Ryall
: Where are you going to draw the line? Was it a travesty when
: the Bomb Squad sampled James Brown or Jimi Hendrix? Was it a
: travesty when Erick Sermon used Zapp? Was it a travesty when
: De La Soul used Hall and Oates? I'd like to know what exactly
: your definition of a "travesty" is when Mos Def and Talib Kweli
: are probably using a song that was a SAMPLE of something in the
: very FIRST place. Travesty my ass.
I'll draw the line right here... anyone who uses a *beat*, not
just, say, a sample of someone's voice or something, which has
been used, in its entirety, by someone else before in a HIP HOP
song, is an ass. The other instances you mentioned are, for the
most part, examples of producers taking something which is
widely considered to NOT be hip hop and creatively changing the
mood/feel/atmosphere of the song through beats and lyrics, to
in effect have a new song which, in the beat as well as the
lyrics, be distinguished from the original. What Hi-Tek did
with definition is something *I* could have done... taking an
old instrumental and having someone rhyme over it. It's the
EXACT same thing Puffy did!
: Anybody who brings a Criminal Minded beat back to the limelight
: IS the shit.
Anyone who brings back a GMF beat to the limelight is too?
: Anybody who pays tribute to the legacy of Boogie Down Productions
: IS the shit.
How is the legacy of BDP being paid tribute to?
: Anybody who can use a classic old school beat that well with some
: tight ass lyrics IS the shit.
Why? I'm sure any "tight ass" lyricist could put lyrics
over an old school beat. What's so great about that?
Andrew Ryall
: and diss Blackstar; don't get me wrong Guru is the bomb and Primo is
: lovely but Talib Kweli is and no offense to Guru TEN TIMES THE EMCEE
: that he will ever be LIFETIME, and Mos Def ain't no f'n slouch either.
Because Gang Starr is ORIGINAL. Primo is easily history's
greatest beatmaker, and if he EVER made a beat as utterly
idiotic as "Definition" or "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down" I
would probably cry. Combine that with above-average lyrics
from Guru and you've got one of hip hop's most consistent
groups.
: I don't usually get this defensive but I'm sorry, Mos Def and Talib
: Kweli are not the Puffy and the Mase of the underground. UNLIKE them,
: they are not trying to pass off some wack commercial shit as REAL
: hip-hop music.
No, they're trying to pass off some wack, unoriginal,
uninspired shit as "underground pick of the minute" and
succeeding.
Andrew Ryall
: > >Taken into perspective... BlackStar is better than anything on the
: > >Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
: > >mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
: > >than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
: > >fucked shit up more than any label can)... They're part of Rawkus which
: > >consistently puts out the dopest indy hip hop out there... And on Rawkus,
: > >they're one of the nicest...
How did Raw Shack fuck up? Because you heard some rumours
and believed them? Don't believe everything you hear.
: > >Keep shit in perspective and maybe if you weren't working for RawShack
: > >and on the dick of their artists, you could see the light...
Who was this directed at? Again, I didn't get the original post.
But anyway, the reason why anyone would be on the dick of
J-Live is because he's one of the better artists to appear
in the last few years. As far as I know, Jeremy Somers is
the only RMHHer who works for Raw Shack.
Andrew Ryall
: > particularily because they're undeserving of this <BR>
: >extremely positive buzz.
: I'm sorry, was Blackstar on the cover of the Source? What "extremely positive
: buzz"? Be realistic and see things in perspective. Canibus is getting buzz.
: Blackstar has the underground heads talking.
I guess it's a difference in what one would call buzz.
People in RMHH and on the internet are flipping for
Jackstar in the same way they did for Co Flow. To me
that constitutes extremely positive buzz.
Jonathan Dean Ripp
: >You can't have it both ways (One's bad cuz >itscommercial, the other is good
: >cuz it's "fresh").
: I want you to rethink that statement, for the following reason.
: 90% of all hip-hop production is based on sampling, either through replaying
: breaks are actually sampling them through a machine. So, yes, you can say "That
: was a fresh way to sample/replay that break" vs. "That was a wack way to
: sample/replay that break". This is how we do a critical discourse on most
: hip-hop beats.
Yeah, I know. But then they're are different ways to sample. Jacking,
chopping, layering, etc... That way to judge a hip-hop song works for the
later two but jacking (in my mind is lifting a song to the point where it
comes on and you think its the original at first but different lyrics
come in) is different. In my mind, your not really reworking anything
except the lyrics. So, just say you prefer Black Starr's lyrics to Puff &
Mase's rather than attempt to justifying their jacking.
Ripp
www.rmhh.com
OverTiME the Beyonder
or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu (k. orr) wrote:
> In article <6olvh5$u9o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> underwor...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > beats are so fucking basic...i could forgive redefinition if mos def didn't
> > say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
> > hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
>
> I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
> what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
> jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
> to be ignored.
Why is that????
A phenomenon I have neva overstood.
>
> And if I remember my history correctly, BlackStar line was part
> of the UNIA (Marcus Garvey's group). It's kinda ill to have name
> your group about a movement that wanted to get away from white dollars,
> and do for self on the economic tip. Intellectually dishonest.
>
> k. orr
That was the original name of my cable channel:
The BlackStarNetwork. I used the name for the same reason.
I'm glad sumbody's gettin' it.
Stay UP!!
OT
MtumeS
(Spirit68) writes:
>Yes. Although they really shouldn't. Compare Rawkus to Priority. Clearly
>Rawkus should be called the indie and Priority the major in that equation,
just be
>looking at the level of distribution Priority has and the massive number of
>units they move annually.
I think there is a misunderstanding of what an independent label is. There are
currently six so-called "major labels." (UNI recently bought PGD, but approval
is pending.) Any label that is not owned, operated (partially or in whole) or
distributed by a major label is an independent.
Priority is an independent. No Limit is an independent. No Limit's distribution
deal with Priority gives Priority no say regarding what records No Limit does
or does not release. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but No Limit is free to
release their records through any distribution channel they'd like. That *is*
independent.
Mtume.
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
> I'll draw the line right here... anyone who uses a *beat*, not
> just, say, a sample of someone's voice or something, which has
> been used, in its entirety, by someone else before in a HIP HOP
> song, is an ass. The other instances you mentioned are, for the
> most part, examples of producers taking something which is
> widely considered to NOT be hip hop and creatively changing the
> mood/feel/atmosphere of the song through beats and lyrics, to
> in effect have a new song which, in the beat as well as the
> lyrics, be distinguished from the original. What Hi-Tek did
> with definition is something *I* could have done... taking an
> old instrumental and having someone rhyme over it. It's the
> EXACT same thing Puffy did!
When did I argue it wasn't?
I never made this argument on the basis of sampling, not even once.
It's a beat jack. You know it, I know it, we *all* know it. I'm not
trying to deny that to make my point. My point is that the lyrics and
the MC's involved give the song more ARTISTIC merit even if the process
behind the beat could have been more creative.
I don't think it was SUPPOSED to be though. Re-using the beat, to me,
was a tribute to Boogie Down Productions. Why else would they sing the
hook from a BDP song as the chorus? That's not a coincidence.
Make the Puffy argument you like, but instead of using a good beat with
good lyrics and a good chorus, he used a good beat with WACK lyrics and
an EIGHTIES ROCK SONG chorus. Not the same thing. The only thing
that's the same is the sampling technique.
And even though I agree about the sample, I'll add, in defense of the
sample, that Hi-Tek chopped it up some and reworked it. Puffy hardly
even touched The Message in comparison; it was a straight up jack.
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash
pro-black sentiments in a white corporate structure?
k.orr wrote:
> Although I think there is a difference between 1989-91 Brand Nubian and
> Black Star, I do see the same intellectual dishonesty.
>
> k. orr
Andrew Ryall
: Taken into perspective... BlackStar is better than anything on the
: Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
: mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
: than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
: fucked shit up more than any label can).
Explain this comment.
: BlackStar REFREAKED the sample... It was chopped a bit and resequenced...
: PUFFY WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!! Then, to make it even doper, they threw in
: the "Stop the Violence" chorus from BDP and updated it, almost as if to
: say, "KRS rocked this in 89 and shit still hasn't changed"...
Oh come on, he barely touched it.
: I understand if you're against the whole reusin' hip hop for whatever
: reasons you have... Personally, I can dig it if it's done well (like
: Blackstar did)... But the whole bullshit about Blackstar bein' the Puff
: and Mase of the underground is RIDICULOUS and makes you sound like an
: ass...
Why? Puffy and Mase did the same thing, arguably it wasn't
'done well' but the concept of adding your own perspective
and lyrics to a previously used beat is the same.
: Keep shit in perspective and maybe if you weren't working for RawShack
: and on the dick of their artists, you could see the light...
I'm not working for Rawshack, where did you get this idea?
Because I prefer J-Live's material to just about anything
else out there? I can just as easily assume that you're
on the dick of whatever the latest internet/underground
song of the minute is, and that you need to see the light.
Now, if Raw Shack wants to pay me for liking J-Live, I'll
be all for it...
k.orr
<funkadel...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Then is hip-hop as a whole intellectually dishonest by expressing
>pro-black sentiments in a white corporate structure?
It's far more complex than that.
There are two main elements that I focus on, the principles and
the practice. If the goal is black nationalism, then to be true
to your principles you would need to be black owned completely.
But if you can achieve that goal, by using white dollars, the practicality
has to outweigh the loss in principle. Public Enemy, X-clan, Prt, Brand Nubian,
could reach millions of black folks, because at the time most black radio
stations would pump hip hop from anywhere. hip hop didn't really have a
regional sound at that point. So it would make sense to a black nationalist to
get his message to as many black folks as possible.
I think this is where Black Star loses out. They could put out a record on
their own, and reach close to the same amount of people that they do with
Rawkus. Most underground heads don't read the source for the rawkus
full page ads, and often buy stuff through word of mouth, or because
they're local underground station played it. That's how rawkus is moving now,
It has nothing to do with videos and magazine articles.
But it's easier for them as artists to hook up with rawkus.
Dishonest, particularly in the day of the hip hop DIY.
k. orr
house of phat beats
r_a...@hotmail.com
R.
http://mason.gmu.edu/~dtursan/rammy/mosdef.htm
> > particularily because they're undeserving of this <BR>
> >extremely positive buzz.
>
> I'm sorry, was Blackstar on the cover of the Source? What "extremely positive
> buzz"? Be realistic and see things in perspective. Canibus is getting buzz.
> Blackstar has the underground heads talking.
>
> >I made a post a month or two back<BR>
> >calling them "the puffy and mase of the underground" and hella<BR>
> >kids jumped down my throat.
>
> That's because you made an overstatement. By any measuring stick, Talib and
Mos
> Def are FAR better MCs than Puffy or Mase.
>
> Before you judge Blackstar, wait till you hear more songs. I have five and
> "Definition" is the weakest of the five, and I like "Definition". Hi-Tek does
> some amazing things on production here and Talib and Mos Def's lyrics are on
> point. Keep an open ear...
>
> Peace,
>
> Spirit
> Spread Love/Amphibians
>
> The Amphibians' debut single "Lettuce (Entertain You)" b/w "Journey" will be
> available August 9th, on vinyl ($5) and cassettes ($3), add $2 for
> shipping/handling. E-mail me for more details...
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Todd Ito
: In article <6olvh5$u9o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: underwor...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: > beats are so fucking basic...i could forgive redefinition if mos def didn't
: > say 'they killed tupac and biggie' oh word? and 'too much violence in
: > hip-hop' or some shit there's not enough...think about it
: I like the song, particularly the production, but they are doing
: what Puff did with the message. The same nostalgic production(beat
: jacking) that will get you hatred from the hip hop heads, seems
: to be ignored.
I haven't heard "Definition" yet, but I understand that Mos Def and
Kweli rhyme over a BDP instrumental and use the slightly changed chorus
from "Stop the Violence." To me, this is extremely different from what
Puff Daddy does. He can take a classic like "The Message," and totally
lose the message (which is pretty goddamn hard to do). He did it for
nostalgia and to move units ONLY. Plus, he can't rap for shit. Now,
BlackStar seems to be doing a tribute to BDP, like when a rock group does
a cover of a song by a band that influenced them or a song they really
dug. That's what I think BlackStar is doing, using the same beat, but
doing different lyrics, yet still keeping the same vibe, same message.
They have a totally different intent than Puffy. Plus, they can rap a
hell of lot better than Puffy or Mase. Where was all this criticism when
Buckshot did "I Ain't no Joke" and, more recently, when Mad Skillz did
"Lick the Balls?" BlackStar isn't biting BDP; they're showing respect. I
think it's pretty damn obvious how different BlackStar's and Puffy's
intents are here. What's so difficult about this?
Todd
Oran,Peel Jones
recent hype they have been getting in magazines).. so far what i hear
from talib kwelihas made me anticipate his EP...mos def is alright 2 me,
but 2 tell u the truth, i would never found out about them if it weren't
4 u all typing about them... so thanks peeps!!!
~----------------------------------------------------~
"West side til i die, until i move somewhere else"-nicholai hermosillo
"No 1 man will be ruler, there4 love must rule us all"-PRINCE/ o(+>
"U claim i'm jockin', claim on ur dick, well where's ur witness? well if
i'm on ur dick, my name has got 2 be syphilis" -the blastmaster KRS-ONE
"U R a meat head...dead from the head up!"
-archie bunker
peace out from Nicholai W. Hermosillo
BSE
>
> Travesty? You honestly consider "Definition" a travesty?
Ill jump in here and say that I think Definition would be pretty dope if
it wasnt for Mos' wack singing at teh end, I liked it on Travellin man
but that shit is weeeee eek.
> Where are you going to draw the line? Was it a travesty when
> the Bomb Squad sampled James Brown or Jimi Hendrix? Was it a
> travesty when Erick Sermon used Zapp? Was it a travesty when
> De La Soul used Hall and Oates? I'd like to know what exactly
> your definition of a "travesty" is when Mos Def and Talib Kweli
> are probably using a song that was a SAMPLE of something in the
> very FIRST place. Travesty my ass.
>
> Anybody who brings a Criminal Minded beat back to the limelight
> IS the shit.
Yeah, are you saying that "Dead bent" by MF Doom is also a travesty?
That shit is a lot better as a whole track than "Super hoe", although
granted this is no where near as good as dead bent.
>
> Anybody who pays tribute to the legacy of Boogie Down Productions
> IS the shit.
Hmm yeah.
>
> Anybody who can use a classic old school beat that well with some
> tight ass lyrics IS the shit.
yep.
On a non related note, my summer walkman tape is soooo fucking dope.
Definition only made teh arse end and gets cut in half at the end of the
tape, so its not saying everything :)
peace, BSE.
----BSE----------------------------------------
"How many emcees must get dissed?" - KRS ONE
__________________BSE hip hop__________________
_____________ http://www.bseuk.com ____________
Mathew Chakko
motivation for the beat jack. You know Puffy didn't care about the original,
just wanted to bastardize it...but Kweli and Mos Def are more likely to be
trying to do more of a tribute.
Of course really this is just a way to say I like this guy so it's ok for him
to do it...but that's what it comes down to sometimes.
******************************************************************
* Mathew Chakko http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~mchakko *
* mch...@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu *
* *
* I guess nobody told you a little knowledge is dangerous *
* It can't be mixed, diluted, it can't be changed or switched *
* - Rakim "Follow the Leader" *
******************************************************************
ogunyemi dayo
anything intellectual about it. Fundamental question that has bothered
me back from Bob Marley (actually more like Peter Tosh) through X-Clan.
People like Gregory Isaacs and Paris tried to address it.
Native Sound
The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash wrote:
>
> Then is hip-hop as a whole intellectually dishonest by expressing
> pro-black sentiments in a white corporate structure?
>
k.orr
>
> Where was all this criticism when
>Buckshot did "I Ain't no Joke" and, more recently, when Mad Skillz did
>"Lick the Balls?"
That's the point. Most hip hop heads don't care if groups they like
do things that they don't. It all goes back to the standard true head
bs philosophy "If it's dope I'll support it". It's unprincipled and can
definitely lead the hip hop nation down the wrong path. It is exactly
what their un-refined counter parts believe in too.
>BlackStar isn't biting BDP; they're showing respect. I
>think it's pretty damn obvious how different BlackStar's and Puffy's
>intents are here. What's so difficult about this?
I think Blackstar is trying to move units. Build a buzz by hitting off
your target market (the stress readers) with something that they
will know. They could have easily chosen another song to be their
first single, but they went with the most ear appealing one.
k. orr
Steve Juon
> I think Blackstar is trying to move units. Build a buzz by hitting off
> your target market (the stress readers) with something that they
> will know. They could have easily chosen another song to be their
> first single, but they went with the most ear appealing one.
And what exactly is wrong with that? Isn't Blackstar just as entitled
to their success as Puffy and Mase are? Isn't good marketing good
marketing no matter what label you're signed to? Don't Mos Def and
Talib Kweli deserve to blow up after the dues they've been paying
rocking clubs and shows (they were LIVE AS FUCK in Chi-Town) and
dropping indie twelve inches? What exactly is the problem here?
Dare I say it -- are people actually "playa hating" on Blackstar?
--
Mr. Steven J. Juon (sj...@stretchmedia.com) 'Web Design Consultant'
Stretch Media: "Expanding business opportunities.. online and in print"
Ask us what Stretch Media can do for you! http://www.StretchMedia.com
k.orr
>It certainly is dishonest, although I often wonder whether there is
>anything intellectual about it. Fundamental question that has bothered
>me back from Bob Marley (actually more like Peter Tosh) through X-Clan.
>People like Gregory Isaacs and Paris tried to address it.
>
>Native Sound
Could you explain your position?
I wanted to say this is a milder form of hypocrisy, and that was the
best term I could think of.
k. orr
Wise Rebel
>> Where was all this criticism when
>>Buckshot did "I Ain't no Joke" and, more recently, when Mad Skillz did
>>"Lick the Balls?"
>That's the point. Most hip hop heads don't care if groups they like
>do things that they don't. It all goes back to the standard true head
>bs philosophy "If it's dope I'll support it".
What's so wrong with that philosophy? How is supporting what's dope
leading hiphop on the wrong path? That's the philosophy that I use and will
continue to use.
Wise
Oliver Wang
FOR KARI:
Ok - good points you're raising here but, based on your perspective, have
there ever been ANY black nationalist hip hop groups that haven't made
their claim-to-fame within a white, corporate structure? Forget that
Black Star co-opts Garvey's name - how are Kweli and Mos Def any more
hypocritical than say - Public Enemy or X-Clan?
Moreover, it seems some what ironic that in this day and age, we expect
our artists to be COMPLETELY independent. There's no doubt that Rawkus
has managed to dominate the indie scene, but they're no Microsoft in a
world where you still have the Big Six lording over it all. Mos Def
choose to cut his 12" deal with Rakwkus PRECISELY b/c he wasn't going to
get locked down to a contract with them, and thus, it kept his options
open. This is after, of course, getting burned in his UTD days at Payday.
I'm especially curious as to whether or not your poor impression of their
politics is matched by a lack of enthusiasm for the group itself?
Personally, I really like the two - I've had a chance to chat with Mos Def
and he seems very genuine of a personality to me. If forced, I may
express misgivings at the historical appropriation of the "Black Star"
name (though I actually think, metaphorically, it's fine even if it
doesn't live up to the standard), but I'd be hard pressed to find anything
to complain about in terms of the music or the arists.
As for this claim:
> I think Blackstar is trying to move units. Build a buzz by hitting off
> your target market (the stress readers) with something that they
> will know. They could have easily chosen another song to be their
> first single, but they went with the most ear appealing one.
I agree that Hi Tek didn't do much with the "P Is Free" beat, but as I
noted earlier, I can't equate him with Puffy until Hi-Tek exclusively does
jacks. Moreover, keep in mind that "Definition" was not meant to be
released as a single. I was in New York months before the single dropped
and Rawkus was still debating their strategy. They didn't think they
could afford the sample clearance cost necessary to release the single
commercially, but they did think it would create a favorable buzz for the
EP.
The fact that it's blown up was both calculated, but not fully predicted
and its success led Rawkus to decide to bite the bullet and pay for the
sample and release the 12" commercially - but as far as I know, it wasn't
part of their gameplan from the get go.
FOR EVERYONE ELSE:
It seems like a silly argument to choose between Kweli and J-Live.
They're both talented. Period.
--oliver wang
Infinite
> Ill say he is not better than Siah or MF but I would put him above the
> rest cos I think he is a lot of nice nice nice.
I can see an argument for Siah's behalf... He's CRAAAZY nice... Metal Face Doom
isn't NEARLY what he used to be as Zev Love though... His dark, demented rhymes
have lost all structure... He slurs and his content have taken a step back... I
still like it, but NOWHERE near as close as what he did with KMD... Kweli would
rip him apart in every facet of MCing now...
> And why is this cat riding the Rawkus dick? Of course they put out dope hip
> hop but that
> doesnt mean they cant put a foot wrong. Plus Fondle fucking shit on
> Rawkus, Ill say that the Siah&Ed and MF debut joints are classic and I
> dont believe Rawkus has put out any classic despite what their posters
> say.
> Actually scrub that 2000 seasons is dope.
I'm not on Rawkus' dick, but I think they put out the best shit consistently...
Fondle Em's latest recs (except maybe for Da Nuthouse which is cool) have been
weak...
MF Doom's latest shit was his from "Black Bastards" ( three or four years old,
at least) and Siah's 12" were hot... Not near "Manifesto" or "2000 Seasons"
though... Of course, that's just my opinion...
MHz are nothing but a wanna-be Monch clone and some other kid who is garbage...
The EP with the freestyles from Denmark or wherever was so-so... MF Grimm???
BLAH... The Arsonists??? Uneven at best... Mr. Live??? Eh ( I like Tony Bones
better)...
Scienz of Life have yet to realize their potential cause of that bumbling idiot
that tries to rhyme next to Lil Sci (who is mad dope, by the way)...
Siah and Yeshua, Cenobites, and Juggaknots were INCREDIBLE!!! But that shit was
over two years ago...These were EASILY classics... I could even get with Cage
for a quick second (by the way, WHO REMEMBER HIM OFF THE PRIME MINISTER PETE
NICE AND DADDY RICH LP???)... Cage wasn't classic, but it was bugged...
I love Fondle Em, don't get me wrong, but they're not bringin' it like they used
to... I just hope the J Treds 12" comes out soon...
Rawkus has Reflection Eternal (amazing), Mos Def (great overall MC just for his
character and devastating mic control), Blackstar, Co Flow (El P is a bit
overrated to me, but he's still pushing the envelope), Sir Menelik (he's ok, but
I can fuck with it), and now, Common (if rumors are indeed true)...
Incredible roster of flavor... Only weak point might be Shabaam Sahdeeq, but
even he's competent... And I won't count RA the Ruggedman if you don't include
Lord Sear (although Sear's shit was mad funny.. I remember him lettin' me hear
it like three months before it came out over the phone... cool kid)...
I think Reflection Eternal's 12" was certified classic, same with a lot of Co
Flow stuff, Mos Def's 12" was classic, Blackstar -- just wait... And I know I'm
forgetting SOMETHING... Oh yeah... L-Fudge's joint was bangin' if for "Show Me
Your Gratitude" by itself... Black Attack and Brick City Kids' 12"s were pretty
chill too...
Overall, I see much more consistency...
Chill,
Infinite
BSE
>
> "The Funklord... Grandmaster Flash" writes:
>
> >Fuck untouchable, anybody can be checked. Hell, Company Flow deserves
> >it for claiming "Independent as Fuck" when Daddy Warbucks Murdoch is
> >financing Rawkus from behind the scenes.
>
> Don't they have their own label titled Official?
> That's the label the Indelible records were released on, and I see the title
> beside Rawkus on their other releases. Isn't this similar to what Master P
> did with Priority? And people consider him Independent (don't they)?
> Correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am).
>
> Regardless, I could give a fuck if an artist is signed to loud or fondle em.
> From what I see the artists on Rawkus have complete creative control
> over their work. Which is all I really care about (the actual music).
No one has ever said a truer word, its the creative control and not the
money that matters, obviously its good if hip hop owns its self but
creatie control is wht makes the music free, and dope.
Peace, BSE
--
----BSE----------------------------------------
"Continuly I collect emcees as ornaments,
in rememberance of those once defeated in rap tournaments" - Pharoe
Monche
BSE
>
> Infinite writes:
>
> >Taken into perspective... BlackStar is better than anything on the
> >Guesswhyld roster, anything on Fondle Em's roster (especially the new
> >mediocre shit they're puttin' out), anything on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
> >than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
> >consistently puts out the dopest indy hip hop out there... And on Rawkus,
> >they're one of the nicest...
>
> great MC, but I wouldn't say he was miles above J Live, Yeshua, Siah,
> Brewin, J Treds, MF Doom etc.
Ill say he is not better than Siah or MF but I would put him above the
rest cos I think he is a lot of nice nice nice. And why is this cat
riding the Rawkus dick? Of course they put out dope hip hop but that
doesnt mean they cant put a foot wrong. Plus Fondle fucking shit on
Rawkus, Ill say that the Siah&Ed and MF debut joints are classic and I
dont believe Rawkus has put out any classic despite what their posters
say.
Actually scrub that 2000 seasons is dope.
Peace, BSE.
Wise Rebel
>Plus Fondle fucking shit on
>Rawkus, Ill say that the Siah&Ed and MF debut joints are classic and I
>dont believe Rawkus has put out any classic despite what their posters
>say.
I don't know, I consider Funcrushers Plus a classic. Specifically the
"Fire in Which..." and "Tragedy of War" singles. As well as Mos Def
and Kweli's debut singles.
Wise
k.orr
wise...@aol.com (Wise Rebel) wrote:
> >That's the point. Most hip hop heads don't care if groups they like
> >do things that they don't. It all goes back to the standard true head
> >bs philosophy "If it's dope I'll support it".
>
> What's so wrong with that philosophy? How is supporting what's dope
> leading hiphop on the wrong path? That's the philosophy that I use and will
> continue to use.
>
> Wise
good question wise.
This goes back to this argument, from a different angle.
What leads underground cats to believe that they don't use the same concept
as the folks who listen to Puffy.
They only support what they think is dope.
Apparently that philosophy doesn't lead to the right path.
k. orr
Ayo...
Otilio Jacobs... (Les)
ACME ThinkTank Whatever Provider
Associate Managing Editor, Daily Texan
House of Phat Beats/The Dolla Holla Show
11pm-1am Thursdays/2pm-4pm Fridays
91.7 KVRX/KO.OP Austin Texas
http://www.utexas.edu/students/acme
http://www.utexas.edu/students/kvrx
http://www.koop.org
http://stumedia.tsp.utexas.edu/webtexan
o...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
>That's the difference between me and you, Ollie. We had a
>similar discussion about Siah and Yeshua, and the use of
>black images to sell records by non-blacks to non-blacks. The issue to
>me is never the music. I think that's relative to begin with.
>These other elements are absolute. I can't apologize for these
>artists because I like the music. I keep the 2 separate.
No actually - you don't. You refuse to separate music and politics and I
respect that. Even more so - I agree with you. I had forgotten our
discussion about Siah and Yeshua and in retrospect, I'm inclined to agree
that what they did was problematic - racist actually - intentional or not.
Of course, I do think that one's personal impression of people or issues
colors one's political perception but in the last two years or so, I've
come to accept that the personal is indeed political so I can't be a
hypocrite to my own ideals. I was just curious if you (kari) disliked the
group's music on top of their politics. Either way, it's not really
material to the discussion, but this thread did begin by asking if people
felt that Black Star was overrated. I just wanted to clarify if your
opinions of them were based on their actual songs or on their ideals.
>>I agree that Hi Tek didn't do much with the "P Is Free" beat, but as I
>>noted earlier, I can't equate him with Puffy until Hi-Tek exclusively does
>>jacks.
>
>You shouldn't look past the the fact that Hi Tek did exactly what puffy
>did for a smaller market. Does the fact that we agree with the content,
>and like the artists more than Puff, P, and JD, make what they did any
>different?
In a word: yes. We're talking CONTEXT here, right? I will grant you - if
Puffy had done "Definition" for Mase, we'd all be bitchin' about Puffy. No
doubt. But contextually, it's not Puffy and Mase. It's Hi Tek and Black
Star. And if we disregard that kind of context than I think we open
ourselves to destroying the icons we respect just b/c they - technically -
resemble the work of artists we don't like.
That context absolutely matters - otherwise, what's the difference b/t
Vanilla Ice sampling David Bowie/Queen and Public Enemy sampling James
Brown?
>But if the appointed underground saviors have to use the same
>methods as the appointed hip hop demons, perhaps we need to
>look at what they really stand for.
But what makes the hip hop demons, demons? And what makes the saviors,
saviors? It's not the method my man - it's what we (as the appointers)
perceive as intent and integrity. Sure, these are very subjective values
that I'm speaking of, but word, Puffy's a demon not b/c he's not original
in his production (if that was the sheer criteria, all samplers would be
"unoriginal" and I REALLY don't want to resurrect that old topic again).
Puffy sucks, in my opinion, b/c he's not doing sh*t to advance a sense of
consciousness through rhyme or music. He's not challenging sh*t. If
anything, he's reactive - draining the creative spirit out of hip hop's
innovations and reducing music and rhymes to the lowest common denominator.
Is that what Black Star is doing with "Definition"? If anything,
"Definition" is the celebration of hip hop's spirit with its obvious nod to
Boogie Down Productions' importance. While the methodology is similar, the
intent and context is different and to me, that does make a big difference
that dissolves any claims of hypocrisy.
--oliver wang
Jeremy A. Somers
: But anyway, the reason why anyone would be on the dick of
: J-Live is because he's one of the better artists to appear
: in the last few years. As far as I know, Jeremy Somers is
: the only RMHHer who works for Raw Shack.
I am an employee of Raw Shack, and as far as I know, Andrew Ryall has not
received any money or free material from Raw Shack ever.
Jeremy Somers
Raw Shack Productions
http://www.rawshack.com
Jeremy A. Somers
: : on Rawshack (Kweli is nicer
: : than BOTH Yeshua and J-Live -- that is, IF they're still on Rawshack who
: : fucked shit up more than any label can).
Please explain what you mean by this; what did Raw Shack do to 'fuck shit
up'? Do you have any idea why there are delays with the J-Live material?
Do you know what parties are involved with this? It goes beyond just Raw
Shack and Payday.
Do you see Raw Shack folding? I don't, and I'm an employee; believe me,
I don't want to be part of the crew of a sinking ship. If you're
interested, we just released a 12" by the MoodSwingaz, which is being well
received all over the nation and overseas as well. We are in negotiations
to sign new artists (both relatively established people and new kids) at
the moment. Until you get official notice that we're out of business,
don't assume anything.
And please, don't believe everything you hear. Any
insignificant person can start or spread a vicious rumor that has
absolutely no truth to it, and people always seem ready to believe it. Why
is that?
Peace,
ogunyemi dayo
kga...@cs.ucsd.edu
or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu (k.orr) wrote:
> In article <199807212023...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> wise...@aol.com (Wise Rebel) wrote:
>
> > >That's the point. Most hip hop heads don't care if groups they like
> > >do things that they don't. It all goes back to the standard true head
> > >bs philosophy "If it's dope I'll support it".
> >
> > What's so wrong with that philosophy? How is supporting what's dope
> > leading hiphop on the wrong path? That's the philosophy that I use and will
> > continue to use.
> This goes back to this argument, from a different angle.
> What leads underground cats to believe that they don't use the same concept
> as the folks who listen to Puffy.
I think they both do, but they are looking for different things in the music.
Puffy fans want something danceable and CoFlow fans are looking for "complex"
rhymes. They both seek songs that are "dope" relative to their metric.
> They only support what they think is dope.
>
> Apparently that philosophy doesn't lead to the right path.
I think it does. Underground hip hop is becoming more lyrically intricate and
hip pop is as danceable as the greatest dance jams of the 80s (OK, they may in
fact be the same music).
The biggest problem to me with that philosophy is that it is not at all
quantitative and allows one to call track X dope and Y wack with the
difference between them being arbitrarily small. But hey this is music, if
you like it you like it... if you don't you don't. Admittedly I am now
glossing over some subtle aspects of musical tastes, but I think I've said
enough for now.
KSG
o...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
(from Oliver)
>> In a word: yes. We're talking CONTEXT here, right? I will grant you - if
>> Puffy had done "Definition" for Mase, we'd all be bitchin' about Puffy. No
>> doubt. But contextually, it's not Puffy and Mase. It's Hi Tek and Black
>> Star. And if we disregard that kind of context than I think we open
>> ourselves to destroying the icons we respect just b/c they - technically -
>> resemble the work of artists we don't like.
>
>In essence we have to turn a blind eye to a practice we don't like
>so that our icons can remain intact?
It's not a blind eye Kari - it's about context. Methods alone don't
condemn you to ridicule and derision. It's not what you do always - it's
why you do it. Which is why I don't put Hi Tek in the same category as
Puffy or JD.
>I think beat jacking has always been apart of hip hop, but in 1998
>you can't do it without be associated with "lesser" hip hop entities
That's not Black Star's fault - and you can only make your judgement based
on a context-call. You think that Hi Tek is jumping on the bandwagon by
resurrecting the "P is Free". But Primo did the same thing for "The P is
Still Free" back in 1993. The difference b/t "The P is Still Free" and
"Definition"? Technically? Nil. Contextually? I argue that there's
little difference, you suggest that there is. I'm not sure if we can
bridge that divide since it's a matter of subjective judgement and I still
think that Black Star was paying homage to BDP AND making a damn fine jam
but not in the same way that Puffy does, who I never felt was paying homage
to Sugarhill Gang when he jacked "The Message". Or Show and AG when he
jacked "Soul Clap" to make KRS' remix of "Step Into a World."
>But at the same time, Black star stands for more than black nationalism.
>Consciously or Unconsciously they are the representatives of underground
>hip hop. They are not so untalented that they can't come up with
>their own dope beats.
Ok sure, but lord, what's wrong with an occasional nod to something
familiar to give rap fans something to flex over? Are you upset that the
Roots do their "best of hip hop" revue in their shows? Or that De La plays
"sing that lyric" in their shows? In fact, isn't doing old songs during a
concert just playing to nostalgia rather than elevating the art with new
material? Should we be mad at KRS for doing "The Bridge is Over" during
his live shows?
I think you'd say no Kari, but I don't think you can easily separate my
examples with what Black Star does with "Definition". IF, and ONLY IF
"Definition" was simply part of a chain of songs that rely on nostalgia
would I entertain that their methodology is exploitative. It's not
innovative, but you know what, I'm ok with that since I don't expect the
band to go out and remake "Rhymin' Wit Biz", unlike the Def Squad.
>> Puffy sucks, in my opinion, b/c he's not doing sh*t to advance a sense of
>> consciousness through rhyme or music. He's not challenging sh*t. If
>> anything, he's reactive - draining the creative spirit out of hip hop's
>> innovations and reducing music and rhymes to the lowest common denominator.
>
>Lowest common denominator? I thought you were in the school of thought,
>that said everyone should be able to listen to hip hop?
*laugh* There's a difference between me saying that everybody should have a
right to enjoy hip hop and suggesting that artists have to make hip hop
accesible to everyone. If I've said otherwise in a past post, please
correct me with my own words. My god - I would never want hip hop to
compromise its intelligence and sense of challenge.
>I think what Puffy is doing is bad for hip hop, not because it's
>bad music. If bad music were the problem, we could talk about
>Master P's "thinking about you girl".
And I'm not saying bad music is the problem either.
>In essence, Puffy has made uncreativity profitable. It has become
>so popular that folks like MOP will use the same tactic to
>increase record sales. Blackstar will use the same tactic to create
>a buzz. Countless other hip hop artists will use the time honored
>practice of beat jacking (not the underground def of sampling mind you)
>to move records.
Name 'em. Name some prominent underground artists who created their buzz
based on beat jacking. J Live with "Braggin Writes"? OC with "Times Up"?
Souls of Mischief with "That's When Ya Lost"? I don't think Black Star
represents a trend in any case - yes, they want to create a buzz but hey -
Mos Def and Kweli already did that with their solo 12"s. It's not as if
they're introducing themselves to the world with "Definition".
--Oliver
kga...@my-dejanews.com
o...@uclink4.berkeley.edu wrote:
> >In essence, Puffy has made uncreativity profitable. It has become
> >so popular that folks like MOP will use the same tactic to
> >increase record sales. Blackstar will use the same tactic to create
> >a buzz. Countless other hip hop artists will use the time honored
> >practice of beat jacking (not the underground def of sampling mind you)
> >to move records.
Wasn't "Definition" originally released as that Stress magazine
cheapo-cut-out record? If that is the case it certainly didn't seem like
Blackstar was lookin' to get "paid" from this release.
> Name 'em. Name some prominent underground artists who created their buzz
> based on beat jacking. J Live with "Braggin Writes"? OC with "Times Up"?
> Souls of Mischief with "That's When Ya Lost"? I don't think Black Star
> represents a trend in any case - yes, they want to create a buzz but hey -
> Mos Def and Kweli already did that with their solo 12"s. It's not as if
> they're introducing themselves to the world with "Definition".
Tru dat.
k.orr
For the record, this was an e-mail exchange that found it's way
to the NG.
> >In essence we have to turn a blind eye to a practice we don't like
> >so that our icons can remain intact?
>
> It's not a blind eye Kari - it's about context. Methods alone don't
> condemn you to ridicule and derision. It's not what you do always - it's
> why you do it. Which is why I don't put Hi Tek in the same category as
> Puffy or JD.
So you are not condemning the beat jack in Definition, because
you think that BlackStar's motives are different/better than
Puff's?
You think they are paying homage, where as I think they are
trying to create a buzz among their target market, like puffy
did with his use of the message.
I would agree with your position, if definition wasn't a single.(especially
if it wasn't a lead/debut single)
I think your argument describes what Snoop did with La Di Da Di.
He wanted to pay tribute, but not build his name over another mc's
track.
> >I think beat jacking has always been apart of hip hop, but in 1998
> >you can't do it without be associated with "lesser" hip hop entities
>
> That's not Black Star's fault - and you can only make your judgement based
> on a context-call. You think that Hi Tek is jumping on the bandwagon by
> resurrecting the "P is Free". But Primo did the same thing for "The P is
> Still Free" back in 1993. The difference b/t "The P is Still Free" and
> "Definition"? Technically? Nil. Contextually?
Technically, a lot. The P is still free sounds nothing like Definition.
It is a remake, not a beat jack.
On the business level, the soundtrack was not being sold on the
strength of this song, nor was it the debut single.
>I argue that there's
> little difference, you suggest that there is. I'm not sure if we can
> bridge that divide since it's a matter of subjective judgement and I still
> think that Black Star was paying homage to BDP AND making a damn fine jam
> but not in the same way that Puffy does, who I never felt was paying homage
> to Sugarhill Gang when he jacked "The Message". Or Show and AG when he
> jacked "Soul Clap" to make KRS' remix of "Step Into a World."
You say tomato, and I say tomato.
> >But at the same time, Black star stands for more than black nationalism.
> >Consciously or Unconsciously they are the representatives of underground
> >hip hop. They are not so untalented that they can't come up with
> >their own dope beats.
>
> Ok sure, but lord, what's wrong with an occasional nod to something
> familiar to give rap fans something to flex over? Are you upset that the
> Roots do their "best of hip hop" revue in their shows? Or that De La plays
> "sing that lyric" in their shows? In fact, isn't doing old songs during a
> concert just playing to nostalgia rather than elevating the art with new
> material? Should we be mad at KRS for doing "The Bridge is Over" during
> his live shows?
To use your concept of context, those things are all different than
definition.
Are you comparing crowd participation at a live show to a debut single?
> I think you'd say no Kari, but I don't think you can easily separate my
> examples with what Black Star does with "Definition". IF, and ONLY IF
> "Definition" was simply part of a chain of songs that rely on nostalgia
> would I entertain that their methodology is exploitative.
I don't give them that much credit.
>It's not
> innovative, but you know what, I'm ok with that since I don't expect the
> band to go out and remake "Rhymin' Wit Biz", unlike the Def Squad.
I don't hate Blackstar, I just think they need to be called on this.
I think more folks who listen to college radio should be aware of
this kinda debate.
> >> Puffy sucks, in my opinion, b/c he's not doing sh*t to advance a sense of
> >> consciousness through rhyme or music. He's not challenging sh*t. If
> >> anything, he's reactive - draining the creative spirit out of hip hop's
> >> innovations and reducing music and rhymes to the lowest common denominator.
> >
> >Lowest common denominator? I thought you were in the school of thought,
> >that said everyone should be able to listen to hip hop?
>
> *laugh* There's a difference between me saying that everybody should have a
> right to enjoy hip hop and suggesting that artists have to make hip hop
> accesible to everyone. If I've said otherwise in a past post, please
> correct me with my own words. My god - I would never want hip hop to
> compromise its intelligence and sense of challenge.
I guess that goes to the core of our definitions of what hip hop is.
I would never put any concepts of intelligence, or challenging the listener
when it comes to hip hop music. That only exists in certain circles of
hip hop music, and for most hip hop listeners it's not the focal point.
But that's another argument for another time.
> >In essence, Puffy has made uncreativity profitable. It has become
> >so popular that folks like MOP will use the same tactic to
> >increase record sales. Blackstar will use the same tactic to create
> >a buzz. Countless other hip hop artists will use the time honored
> >practice of beat jacking (not the underground def of sampling mind you)
> >to move records.
>
> Name 'em. Name some prominent underground artists who created their buzz
> based on beat jacking.
MF Doom "Dead Bent"
E-rule " Listen Up"
Keith Murray "The most beautifullest.."
Rasheed and Ill advised "1986"
Do you want more? We could easily go back in time and look at bdp, run dmc,epmd
x-clan, and countless others and see how beat jacking has made them famous
as opposed to their own material. It is a time honored technique. I originally
brought this discussion to the table because no one mentioned it.
Again, to me beat-jacking isn't the primary issue with black star, but I do
think it is one part of their problem, and another indication of the
hypocrisy within the underground hip hop community.
peace
k. orr
and then ollie replied back
Aiya...
Well, I don't have much new points to add...I think this discussion has
gone pretty well - I've said what I'e wanted to say and I respect your
comments.
Obviously, we disagree over intent or at least, outcome. "Definition"
never struck me as a problematic song, and while I think, on a theoretical
level, your points have validity, as a critic and a fan, I don't find much
to feel anxious over. In the wide scheme of things, "Definition" won't be
Black Star's greatest achievement, nor will it make any wide impact on hip
hop in general since A) it won't sell like "Horse & Carriage" will and B)
it's not the best song Black Star has in their repetoire.
And by the way, I would argue that of these:
MF Doom "Dead Bent"
E-rule " Listen Up"
Keith Murray "The most beautifullest.."
Rasheed and Ill advised "1986"
none of them really work in the same context as "Definition". Part of it
is my own musical ignorance - for example, I can't remember what song "Dead
Bent" jacked.
Moreover, "Listen Up" used "Everyone Loves the Sunshine" at a point BEFORE
it became wildly jacked. ATCQ wasn't the first to loop "Between the
Sheets" for the "Bonita" remix, but I ain't mad at them for it, vs. when
BIG did it years later for "Big Poppa".
With Keith Murray, it wasn't that blatant of a jack - bassline groove yes,
some parts of the horn hook, but for the most part, it was a relatively
innocous boosting of "Between the Sheets". Plus, you can't really compare
Murray - who came out on Jive from the get go - with Black Star who won't
have the same kind of exposure.
And where did "1986" come from? I know that sh*t sounds familiar but I
can't place it...some ol' Mantronix song (since the beat sounds like an old
Mantronix type production).
BTW, Rawkus may have Murdoch funding, but it's still limited in its scope
in terms of distribution. I'm well aware of the problematics with how
they're set up, but I still think they make good records, which isn't
unimportant even if it isn't all-important. I'm not trying to defend them
out right, but had Black Star gone directly to a major, I don't think
they'd have the same kind of creative freedom. BTW, this is rumor, but I
hear Black Star got signed to MCA via Rawkus. Don't know how this affects
our conversation, but thought you'd want to know.
BTW, I don't think intelligence and challenging the listener are at the
core of hip hop's purpose - I was only suggesting that I would never want
hip hop to be about appealing to the lowest common denominator - whatever
gave you that impression?
Respect,
Oliver
And Then I Said
Oliver Wang wrote:
>
> Obviously, we disagree over intent or at least, outcome. "Definition"
> never struck me as a problematic song,
Exactly what I'm getting at. It never struck as you problematic.
> And by the way, I would argue that of these:
>
> MF Doom "Dead Bent"
> E-rule " Listen Up"
> Keith Murray "The most beautifullest.."
> Rasheed and Ill advised "1986"
>
> none of them really work in the same context as "Definition". Part of it
> is my own musical ignorance - for example, I can't remember what song "Dead
> Bent" jacked.
It used a bdp beat, an atlantic starr flourish, but the most prominent
is the isaac hayes jack of walk on bye.
> And where did "1986" come from? I know that sh*t sounds familiar but I
> can't place it...some ol' Mantronix song (since the beat sounds like an old
> Mantronix type production).
It's from the Juice Crew diss, I forget who the mc's were.
> BTW, Rawkus may have Murdoch funding, but it's still limited in its scope
> in terms of distribution. I'm well aware of the problematics with how
> they're set up,
Again, If most indy record companies had 40,000 - 75,000 to set up with
we could all have record labels. I can't hate on them (rawkus) for taking
an opportunity, but as I understand it, it's still run by 2 white hip hop
heads. Were I to preach black nationalism, I would look very hypocritical
from that stand point. This was the major beef that lots of folks had with
the black nationalists of back in the day. The difference was that the
nationalism of 89-91 was on a national platform, not college radio.
> but I still think they make good records, which isn't
> unimportant even if it isn't all-important. I'm not trying to defend them
> out right, but had Black Star gone directly to a major, I don't think
> they'd have the same kind of creative freedom. BTW, this is rumor, but I
> hear Black Star got signed to MCA via Rawkus. Don't know how this affects
> our conversation, but thought you'd want to know.
It makes them the 98 equivalent of PE in terms of industry status.
I only hope, for lots of reasons, that they can reach a broader audience.
More importantly, an audience who will become conscious of the message
that they are pushing. As much as I love underground hip hop, I think
some of the ideas that folks push are better served if they hit folks
who haven't heard it before.
> BTW, I don't think intelligence and challenging the listener are at the
> core of hip hop's purpose - I was only suggesting that I would never want
> hip hop to be about appealing to the lowest common denominator - whatever
> gave you that impression?
>
> Respect,
I actually want hip hop to be appealing to the lowest common denominator,
most of us more complex fractions already know what is up with the mathematics
anyway. I wasn't listening for lyrics back when I was a shorty, but
through checking for the beat only I became more engaged in the rest
of hip hop. Often folks like Puffy and Master P, are stepping stones
for hip hop listeners. I've seen countless folks discover Young Bleed
or Mystikal's lyrical prowess when compared to their track mate Master
P and Sillk. Once a head can distinguish the difference, I think hip hop
has gained.
In terms of appeal and getting their message to commercial radio oriented
heads, I think the beat jack was a good thing for black-star.
The question I ask myself, is was this intentional, and does the
underground realize what that means.
One love,
k. orr
And that's where I believe the debate ended.
BSE
Word, as I mentioned in another post I went back to Funcrusher after a
little break and I agree Its a classic, its a bit much of one idea but a
classic.
But as for Tradgedy being a classic single I would put Vital Nerve well
above both and 2000 seasons up with em.
Since I'm not KRS yet I can still change my mind, which is nice. now to
read that "BSE is a punk" or whatever post, cant wait.
peace, BSE.
BSE
>
> BSE,
>
> > Ill say he is not better than Siah or MF but I would put him above the
> > rest cos I think he is a lot of nice nice nice.
>
> isn't NEARLY what he used to be as Zev Love though... His dark, demented rhymes
> have lost all structure... He slurs and his content have taken a step back... I
> still like it, but NOWHERE near as close as what he did with KMD... Kweli would
> rip him apart in every facet of MCing now..
You see I look at MF and Zev as different emcees, a bit like looking at
Kool Keith, Keith was dope on Critical beatdown but you cant front on Dr
Oc. MF Doom is dope because of the slurs and rubbish in between the
calssic lines, he sneaks in incredible rhymes whilst sounding to the
unhearing like ODB, thats teh dope thing about him for me. But yeah
Kweli could rip him, doesnt mean I cant prefer MF, KRS ONE could
probably raise his game to anyone in a battle but rihgt now I prefer
Gift of Gab :) Its liek that for me cos Im shite like that.
.
>
> > And why is this cat riding the Rawkus dick? Of course they put out dope hip
> > hop but that
> > doesnt mean they cant put a foot wrong. Plus Fondle fucking shit on
> > Rawkus, Ill say that the Siah&Ed and MF debut joints are classic and I
> > dont believe Rawkus has put out any classic despite what their posters
> > say.
> > Actually scrub that 2000 seasons is dope.
>
> I'm not on Rawkus' dick,
No offence meant, I only meant it as just a phrase. :)
> but I think they put out the best shit consistently...
> Fondle Em's latest recs (except maybe for Da Nuthouse which is cool) have been
> weak...
Honestly I have hardly picked any recent stuff up.
>
> MF Doom's latest shit was his from "Black Bastards" ( three or four years old,
> at least) and Siah's 12" were hot... Not near "Manifesto" or "2000 Seasons"
> though... Of course, that's just my opinion...
I picked up "Black Bastards" and whooo that is dope shit but Bobbito
hardly gets credit for that being as its ooooold. Im yet to hear teh
Boogaloo and friends shit although that may well be on another label no
one has told me yet.
>
> MHz are nothing but a wanna-be Monch clone and some other kid who is garbage...
> The EP with the freestyles from Denmark or wherever was so-so... MF Grimm???
> BLAH... The Arsonists??? Uneven at best... Mr. Live??? Eh ( I like Tony Bones
> better)...
>
> Scienz of Life have yet to realize their potential cause of that bumbling idiot
> that tries to rhyme next to Lil Sci (who is mad dope, by the way)...
> Siah and Yeshua, Cenobites, and Juggaknots were INCREDIBLE!!! But that shit was
> over two years ago...These were EASILY classics... I could even get with Cage
> for a quick second (by the way, WHO REMEMBER HIM OFF THE PRIME MINISTER PETE
> NICE AND DADDY RICH LP???)... Cage wasn't classic, but it was bugged...
>
> I love Fondle Em, don't get me wrong, but they're not bringin' it like they used
> to... I just hope the J Treds 12" comes out soon...
Hmm, yes Rawkus are much more consistent which is most peoples argument,
and I'll give you that, but the classic shit Fondle em has cut has been
a lot less safe and predictable than Rawkus(Baring Co Flow and Menilik
who I dont like) so Its Fondle ems sporadic dopeness that makes me love
them.
Like if you let people put out what THEY think is dope then some wil be
wack due to bad ears and egos and some will be big fat beachball sized
diamonds.
>
> Rawkus has Reflection Eternal (amazing),
Yep
> Mos Def (great overall MC just for his character and devastating mic control),
Woo yes.
> Blackstar,
Im not the bigget fan of Definition but I hope the sum of the parts
constitutes the whole in this project. Spirits heard the whole Ep, whats
it like?
> Co Flow (El P is a bit overrated to me, but he's still pushing the envelope)
Dont think hes a master Emcee but i love what they do and teh production
is out there and unlike the X-Files i like out there with CF digi.
> Sir Menelik (he's ok, but I can fuck with it)
Wick wick...You know the rest. I have a long running grudge against him.
>and now, Common (if rumors are indeed true)...
hmm i hope he is not as wishy washy as One day..
> Incredible roster of flavor... Only weak point might be Shabaam Sahdeeq
Soundclash? Dope, but yeah hes not a rhymer of the highest order yet,
but thats the good thing they can grow.
>, but
> even he's competent... And I won't count RA the Ruggedman if you don't include
> Lord Sear (although Sear's shit was mad funny.. I remember him lettin' me hear
> it like three months before it came out over the phone... cool kid)...
Forget tehm both in my onion.
>
> I think Reflection Eternal's 12" was certified classic,
Okay yeah.
> same with a lot of Co
> Flow stuff,
Hmm okay.
>Mos Def's 12" was classic
Erm yeah but its warn out at the moment to my ears, Im sure if I give it
a break. but hey I had the T shirt before anyone had heard so you know I
love this man.
>, Blackstar -- just wait...
Im still a little nervous.
>And I know I'm
> forgetting SOMETHING... Oh yeah... L-Fudge's joint was bangin' if for "Show Me
> Your Gratitude" by itself.
I liked What If for cheesy reasons and didnt feel the other two, hmm
(me-re-listen).
>.. Black Attack and Brick City Kids' 12"s were pretty
Liked Brick city didnt hear black attack, i think it lost out to Brick
city cos tehy dropped at the same time and money isnt wishing well
water, thats not a good use of quote is it? no it doesnt make sense.
> Overall, I see much more consistency...
Oh, shit yeah.
100% agree, all it is for me is
"I prefer Fondle em cos when they are at thier brightest it is brighter
then any of Rawkus' Stars"
nice nice nice, BSE.
OverTiME the Beyonder
(k.orr) wrote:
> I actually want hip hop to be appealing to the lowest common denominator,
It has to. Whut good is delivering a message that only a few overstand?
> most of us more complex fractions already know what is up with the mathematics
> anyway. I wasn't listening for lyrics back when I was a shorty, but
> through checking for the beat only I became more engaged in the rest
> of hip hop.
Headz alwayz forget that they are so tuned into hip-hop that they look for
different parameters when they analyze a song than the average listener.
Yall forget that most folks dont even remember the names of songs they
just remember the melody, beat, or hook.
> Often folks like Puffy and Master P, are stepping stones
> for hip hop listeners. I've seen countless folks discover Young Bleed
> or Mystikal's lyrical prowess when compared to their track mate Master
> P and Sillk.
I could argue that Master P and Silkk has both said sum pretty profound
thangz on record in their own geto way. Becuz the context of lyrics are
just as important as the lyrical content to alotta folkz including me.
Its like college radio types try to shot over your head.
P & Silkk slip shotz unda the table. Just like GooDieMob.
Five on the Black-hand side.
> Once a head can distinguish the difference, I think hip hop
> has gained.
I think if headz spent less time concentrating on who's ruining the
'artform' and creating the art mo people would pay attention to their
messages.
Because hip-hop is show & prove and the commercial acts are the one's
being seen by the masses for the most part. Contrary to whut most folks
believe the masses are not ignorant they just need to be informed. So the
indies need to do a better job of getting out there. Its posssible. Becuz
Puff has some good arguments of his own:
'...Caint my car look betta than yours?'
Master P started out the trunk.
So did Eightball, Scarface, and countless othaz.
No Limit grossed $80 million in 1997. I got this straight outta Newsweek.
Distribution costs lots of money.
> In terms of appeal and getting their message to commercial radio oriented
> heads, I think the beat jack was a good thing for black-star.
I do too. I dont know why so many headz get aggravated at beat-jacking.
That's whut hip-hop has alwayz been. DJ's used to put tape over their
labels so you couldn't see the names of the artists of the albums they
were spinning so noboy else could jack the beat from them that they found
while diggin in the crates.
Almost every hip-hop song has jacked a beat from some one. That's why
hip-hop was catching so much flake for not being an artform, they were
sampling and jackin old R&B, Bluez, Jazz, Funk, Disco, and Pop records.
Al Green, James Brown, Miles Davis, George Clinton, Zapp, Earth, Wind, &
Fire, the Isley Bros., Maze, Teddy Pendergrass, Maseo, Charlie Parker,
Coltrane, Isaac Hayes, Last Poets, Cameo, War, the Chi-Lites, the
Temptations, Bobby Blue Bland, etc etc have all been used up by producers
in hip-hop.
I'm talkin straight jack'n like Cube said.
Even the most undaground groups are all guilty.
Most of the RZA's beats are old Memphis songs.
He doesnt even remake he just loops them with static and sound effects.
Most of Dr. Dre's beats are all old P-funk hits. (The cool thang is that
George is actually down wit Dre and helped him in the studio.)
Primo uses jazz artists, who he also works wit on the reg.
I'll bet I could name the original song in almost every major hip-hop hit
in the last 10 years.
None of that shit is new.
There are only a few producers in hip-hop who make original beats.
Most just come up with original concepts or themes for their groups.
>
> The question I ask myself, is was this intentional, and does the
> underground realize what that means.
>
> One love,
>
> k. orr
>
> And that's where I believe the debate ended.
I think it was. But it goes unda their headz.
I think the problem is that hip-hop is getting old enough to where hip-hop
songs are being created/sampled/re-made from old hip-hop songs that were
created/sampled/re-made from even older hip-hop songs which were made from
an even older original song.
Basically the same beats are being recycled too many times and a lot of
people dont remember the originals.
There is a whole generation of headz today who caint remember the 80's.
Hip-hop ages in dog years. It tripped me out when Buckshot remade I aint
no joke becuz in my mind I thought Rakim wuz still in the game.
In the 80's most songs that came out used to sample/mock a popular hip-hop
song that had been out prior to it.
Remember BDP's, 'The Bridge is Over' is a response to MC Shan's, 'The Bridge'.
Stay UP!!
OverTiME
BSE
> And by the way, I would argue that of these:
>
> MF Doom "Dead Bent"
But Kari he REALY re arranged that beat, its just the same drums. And
plus surely you would agree that that is incredibly dope and doesnt
sound the same as Super Hoe whereas Definition sounds like P is free
with new lyrics and Stop The violence as the hook. I think there is a
diffeerence between them.
And I dont dissgree with Puffy adn friends on principle, i think if
sampling is okay(which I certainly think) then sampling anything on
principle is okay, its whether you use it well and make it sound good,
and make it sound like hip hop and not rap over an 80s pop song. But I
kow this is not the noraml view, most people think its a crime to sample
something like the message on principle, i jsut think Puff did it badly
and I dont think Hi Tek did it well either with "The P".
And I dont think MF used Dead Bent ot make a buzz since everyone(apart
from me) was realy feeling "Hey!" a lot more and he hardly had an
elephant bee sized buzz when it dropped. Blackstar are dropping it as
thier debut and not after being in hip hop for 10 years or so.
Ollie wrote:
> Part of it
> is my own musical ignorance - for example, I can't remember what song "Dead
> Bent" jacked.
Scot la rock Super hoe.
Peace, BSE
--
----BSE----------------------------------------
"Continually I collect emcees as ornaments,
k.orr
>Scot la rock Super hoe.
>
>Peace, BSE
More importantly, Walk on By - Isaac Hayes.
k. orr
k.orr
>
>It has to. Whut good is delivering a message that only a few overstand?
I wish I had a national voice to say that with.
I wonder how many other folks have this discussion outside of hip hop?
>> most of us more complex fractions already know what is up with the mathematics
>> anyway. I wasn't listening for lyrics back when I was a shorty, but
>> through checking for the beat only I became more engaged in the rest
>> of hip hop.
>
>Headz alwayz forget that they are so tuned into hip-hop that they look for
>different parameters when they analyze a song than the average listener.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as heads realize where they
are coming from.
>Yall forget that most folks dont even remember the names of songs they
>just remember the melody, beat, or hook.
True Indeed.
>> Often folks like Puffy and Master P, are stepping stones
>> for hip hop listeners. I've seen countless folks discover Young Bleed
>> or Mystikal's lyrical prowess when compared to their track mate Master
>> P and Sillk.
>
>
>I could argue that Master P and Silkk has both said sum pretty profound
>thangz on record in their own geto way. Becuz the context of lyrics are
>just as important as the lyrical content to alotta folkz including me.
I'm not saying that they aren't dropping knowledge, but using
the academic/technical/college radio scale, lots of P fans start to
notice technical differences between the different mc's on the album.
Whether they think more technical is better, is a different question.
On rmhh, more tech is better.
>Because hip-hop is show & prove and the commercial acts are the one's
>being seen by the masses for the most part. Contrary to whut most folks
>believe the masses are not ignorant they just need to be informed. So the
>indies need to do a better job of getting out there. Its posssible. Becuz
>Puff has some good arguments of his own:
Exactly. It all stems into some sort of superiority
complex that creeps into any small group(whether it be
ballet enthusiasts, drivers, wakeboarders, or crotchet
folks)
>No Limit grossed $80 million in 1997. I got this straight outta Newsweek.
>Distribution costs lots of money.
You forgot to mention that P has clothing line, a record store, a real
estate agency, and a sports representation agency.
>I'll bet I could name the original song in almost every major hip-hop hit
>in the last 10 years.
How much are you willing to bet?
stay up,
k. orr
k.orr
>But Kari he REALY re arranged that beat, its just the same drums. And
>plus surely you would agree that that is incredibly dope and doesnt
>sound the same as Super Hoe whereas Definition sounds like P is free
>with new lyrics and Stop The violence as the hook. I think there is a
>diffeerence between them.
I knew all the samples on that 12", the day it came out. I'm not saing
sampling is a bad thing, but even underground folks get over on nostalgia.
The worst example of that would be Hey. I just mentioned dead bent
cause that's my fave on that record.
>And I dont think MF used Dead Bent ot make a buzz since everyone(apart
>from me) was realy feeling "Hey!" a lot more and he hardly had an
>elephant bee sized buzz when it dropped. Blackstar are dropping it as
>thier debut and not after being in hip hop for 10 years or so.
After Hey and Dead Bent, folks started to check for MF Doom. If
he would have put out Gas Drawlz on it's own, or the GreenBacks/go with the
flow first, most of the young cats who weren't up on KMD, would
have checked for him.
Again, I'm not hating on folks for trying to get listeners, I applaud that.
k. orr
BSE
> >
> >Peace, BSE
>
> More importantly, Walk on By - Isaac Hayes.
It also samples Francoise Hardy, jsut thought Id kcik that in.
But that tune is all about the beat and the violins.
Peace, BSE.
BSE
> >plus surely you would agree that that is incredibly dope and doesnt
> >sound the same as Super Hoe whereas Definition sounds like P is free
> >with new lyrics and Stop The violence as the hook. I think there is a
> >diffeerence between them.
>
> I knew all the samples on that 12", the day it came out. I'm not saing
> sampling is a bad thing, but even underground folks get over on nostalgia.
> The worst example of that would be Hey. I just mentioned dead bent
> cause that's my fave on that record.
My favourite too.
>
> >And I dont think MF used Dead Bent ot make a buzz since everyone(apart
> >from me) was realy feeling "Hey!" a lot more and he hardly had an
> >elephant bee sized buzz when it dropped. Blackstar are dropping it as
> >thier debut and not after being in hip hop for 10 years or so.
>
> After Hey and Dead Bent, folks started to check for MF Doom. If
> he would have put out Gas Drawlz on it's own, or the GreenBacks/go with the
> flow first, most of the young cats who weren't up on KMD, would
> have checked for him.
Well as far as I know he jsut released what he recorded, he hadnt done
Go With the flow or Greenbacks till after the first 12" dropped.
I dont think that many heads would know what he sampled anyway, you
would, I would know some, but even most underground old school
harder-than-the-hardcore heads dont know shit about samples, they are
always like "Thats thingy from thingy back in the day".
I think Blackstar singing the whole chorus a la Stop the violence and
keeping the same flow as Kris is pretty weak.
> Again, I'm not hating on folks for trying to get listeners, I applaud that.
I still dont think Dead bent/gas drawls was meant to GET listeners any
more than any music. Blackstar tries to get people through nostalgia,
while MFs doesnt realy dwell on the BDP samples or Isaac Hayes or any of
that shit.
Kari, I assume you agree that sampling is a great part and an integral
part of hip hop music right? SO where is the line that sampling becomes
weak and easy, and nostalgic?
What about Nine sampling "Sitting on the dock"? Pretty small sample but
my girlfriend recognised it!!!!????
is it when hip hop samples its own beats/loops a la Blackstar/Puffy?
Is it when you sample something too familiar e.g Diana Ross, Issac
Hayes, Stevie Wonder?
Some hardcore heads would say that if someone else can recognise the
samples then its wack???
I too think its pretty weak to build a rep on nostalgia for someone old
record but I dont think MF built enough of a rep for it to count :)
Wheras Puffy is teh biggest in the world and Blackstar are blowing up
big time.
Peace, BSE.
----BSE----------------------------------------
"On the dotted line, back before the rhyme I had reasons
To punch the kid who tried teasin' during lunch
It was a matter of pro-mo-ting de-cen-cy
But the 'de' and the 'cy' fell off, so I sinned
Again and again, until Jesus came down
Wait, I'm still sinning! I guess he hasn't reached the ground!" - De La
Soul
BSE
Word I want to see that.
Flash
1. "My Melody" - Eric B. & Rakim
2. "Mind's Playin Tricks on Me" - Geto Boys
3. "Roxanne Roxanne" - UTFO
4. "The Message" - Grandmaster Melle Mel and Duke Bootee
5. "High Rollers" - Ice-T
6. "Don't Believe the Hype" - Public Enemy
7. "Passin' Me By" - The Pharcyde
8. "Come Clean" - Jeru the Damaja
9. "It's the Joint" - Funky Four + 1
10. "Electric Relaxion" - ATCQ
11. "We Be Clubbin" - Ice Cube
12. "Ego Trippin Pt. 2" - De La Soul
13. "Ego Trip" - UltraMagnetic M.C.'s
14. "I Need a Beat" - LL Cool J
15. "Jazz Thing" - GangStarr
16. "Make 'Em Say UNNGH" - Master P
17. "Hood Took Me Under" - MC Eiht
18. "Mr. Scarface is Back" - Mr. Scarface
19. "Work the Angles" - Dilated Peoples
20. "End to End Burners" - Company Flow