Company Flow Hip-Hop Dissemination.
Alexander Carlton
Company Flow has such a large underground following. In class, we spoke
with one person who had nothing but praise for Company Flow, and nothing
but diss for most other hip-hop groups.
I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
dogshit.
But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
Inquiring minds would like to know, and this subject is of rather extreme
importance to the Advocates International Hip-Hop Dissemination Project.
All replys welcome, love me, hate me, I don't care, I want opinions.
Alex Carlton
Chief of Security
Advocates International
"Blowin' up your spot like Tim McVeigh"
(c)1998, Advocates International
All Rights Reversed.
Kang Su Gatlin
Alexander Carlton wrote:
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit.
But there are many that can, and I am one of them. In fact for me it is the
incredibly dope rugged beats on this album that really make it stand out.
> Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
> Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
> seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
> dogshit.
Well since we already disagree on the production... I will say that I find the
delivery to be not of the finest quality, but the lyrics are kinda cool. Two
out of three puts you up on most MCs nowadays.
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
CoFlow may well legitimize to some extent the white presence in hip hop. I
don't really know. When I first heard the beat to "Vital Nerve" I didn't know
if they were white or black. I just knew the beat was off the hinges. The
lyrics while good aren't superb. I don't put them on the level of an OutKast,
Common, or KRS. The delivery (and mixing) is what really keeps me from
pumpin' this album a lot. Often times I just can't make out what they are
saying. But the phat beats keep me coming back for more.
--
One Luv,
KSG
The UltraJam Show SRTV Tuesdays 10pm-11pm (Channel 18/Triton Cable)
Bring tha Noize KSDT
SRTV/KSDT: http://scw.ucsd.edu/
Personal: http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/~kgatlin
applesauce
: I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
: honest, the delivery is a pile of crap.
Both points are completely subjective. Just because you two can't feel
the production/delivery doesn't mean that the rest of the underground
can't/shouldn't. The production is extremely raw, gritty, dope, etc. IMHO
on just about every song. The only beats i really don't like on
Funcrusher plus are bad touch example, and legends. Delivery is
technically "bad", but who gives a damn about technically. They're doing
something different, with some dope one liners and some things to think
about in the process.
: Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
: good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
: presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
Well, for this theory to be valid, the only underground heads jocking Co
Flow would have to be White. True, the large majority of Co flow's fans
are probably white, but the large majority of underground and mainstream
fans are white too. It has something to do with the relative populations
here in these united states. Do any Black heads really want to
"legitimize the white presence in hip hop?" I doubt that very highly.
I don't think they're all against this legitimization, but surely not a
strong proponent for it. Are there Black underground heads? Yes. Are
there Black co flow fans? Yes.
This boat doesn't float.
respectfully,
applesauce
____________________________________________________________________
:This has been a Greasy Kid Inc. production. :
: :
: "This track is so dope, it should have come with 2 syringes" :
: ---Juice :
: :
: Para chuparse los dedos!:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
B. David Harrison
>
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
I think you're way in the minority. Your post probably should be more
about people's perceptions of the beats.
I think the beats take some getting used to, and they're pretty out
there, but far from wack.
> honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad,
Again, I don't think this is a given. I think he's worlds above MCs
like Guru and Jeru. The one beef I have is that the flow and the beat
don't always mesh really well.
Still, Co-Flow's appeal is far from simply lyrics and race. I
B. David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit.
Of course, y'all on the West, and heads feel a different kind of beat
out there. Not better, not worse, just different.
Personally, I think the beats on songs like "8 Steps to Perfection",
"Collude/Intrude", and "The Fire in Which You Burn" are some of the
best beats I've heard in hip-hop. Not for an indie record, not for
the last five years, I mean for the whole time I've been into hip-hop.
Yeah I like those beats THAT much.
> The delivery, well, let's be honest,
> the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to.
I will grant that El-P's spastic superfast delivery can be a little hard
to deal with and/or occasionally annoying. I will also grant Neil had
a valid point when we discussed the fact that El-P's superscientifics is
a style/gimmick designed to appeal to the underground: kids feel smarter
by listening to El-P rap; it strokes their mental ego. Now given I'm
willing to grant these two points, I would like to flip the script:
El-P says some NICE stuff on the mic. It's WORTH digging into his style
to extract it out. This cat constantly amazes me when he says shit like
"Ask L. Ron Hubbard to break down my Scientology" and "You're rocking
low budget, Doctor Who, special effects" -- he flips things in rhymes
that other MC's wouldn't even begin to conceive of.
> El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
> Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
> seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
> dogshit.
I'm not gonna front on you for your opinions Alex, cause you're a cool
cat and nothing's gonna change that to me. I'm surprised you feel this
strongly negative about CoFlow, but in that way you're not flipping
anything that other cats don't who are strongly negative about Master P,
strongly negative about Puffy, strongly negative about whatever. Some
people find one style of hip-hop so oppositely polar to their own flavor
that it causes what I'd call "instant hate reaction". I think it can
transcend even discussions of merits of style and flavor and lyrics,
because it comes down to a gut feeling: it ain't my style, it's not cool.
And I respect that. I don't think you need to justify not liking CoFlow
to yourself, the newsgroup, underground heads, or anybody else. It's
just a gut feeling, and instead of a long argument which you present
it can be summed up in your statement "steaming heap of dogshit." That's
how you truly feel, and no argument from me about El-P's complexity or
the thickly chunky East coast beats is gonna change your POV.
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
I would refer you to the post Wuz! made earlier today on Eminem for
my answer to this question.
> All replys welcome, love me, hate me, I don't care, I want opinions.
*layin two cents out on the table*
--
"Look out the window golly the sky is electric blue..." --> Andre B.
"Sony or Aiwa, black or white, I fit in all stereotypes" --> Wordsworth
Steve 'Flash' Juon --> contact dj.f...@pobox.com for e-mail
Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive --> http://www.OHHLA.com
Suite 101's Hip-Hop --> http://www.suite101.com/topics/page.cfm/116
Alexander Carlton
: Alexander Carlton <ner...@catbert.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
: : I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
: : honest, the delivery is a pile of crap.
: Both points are completely subjective. Just because you two can't feel
: the production/delivery doesn't mean that the rest of the underground
: can't/shouldn't.
The production we cannot feel. The delivery is beyond pathetic. It
reminds me of when I first started freestyling, and how wack and off-beat
I was, with no control over the tempo, or rhythym.
: The production is extremely raw, gritty, dope, etc. IMHO
: on just about every song. The only beats i really don't like on
: Funcrusher plus are bad touch example, and legends. Delivery is
: technically "bad", but who gives a damn about technically. They're doing
: something different, with some dope one liners and some things to think
: about in the process.
By your argument, underground would be subjective, and Puff Daddy could be
made out to be the greatest underground artist ever. This is not the
case, therefore, even as subjective, there seems to be some standard to
apply. What that standard is, is not yet determined, although we at
Advocates International are interested in exploring this.
: : Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
: : good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
: : presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
:
: Well, for this theory to be valid, the only underground heads jocking Co
: Flow would have to be White. True, the large majority of Co flow's fans
: are probably white, but the large majority of underground and mainstream
: fans are white too.
I find the black fanatical following of Company Flow to not exist. While
some black headz like Company Flow, none have done so (to my knowledge) to
the extreme I have seen white headz go to.
: It has something to do with the relative populations
: here in these united states. Do any Black heads really want to
: "legitimize the white presence in hip hop?" I doubt that very highly.
Again, Company Flow's strongest, most loyal following are white
"underground" headz.
: I don't think they're all against this legitimization, but surely not a
: strong proponent for it. Are there Black underground heads? Yes. Are
: there Black co flow fans? Yes.
: This boat doesn't float.
Thus the theory part. As of yet, I can neither disprove this theory, nor
find additional evidence to support it. I am operating on my ownership of
Company Flow, and my continuing dissection of the music, and the opinions
of several white, black, mexican, and asian headz.
Thank you for your comment(s), I shall take them into account.
Tim Brown
Alexander Carlton <ner...@catbert.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article
<727n18$5j8$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
> while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
>
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
I like the beats and lyrics because I think they are dope....no other
reason.
Alexander Carlton
: On 9 Nov 1998, Alexander Carlton wrote:
: > I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
: I think you're way in the minority. Your post probably should be more
: about people's perceptions of the beats.
Correction: I am in the majority, else Company Flow wouldn't be
"underground"
: I think the beats take some getting used to, and they're pretty out
: there, but far from wack.
The original Cypress Hill took some getting used to. If I have a negative
reaction, it means I will not like it. If I am ambivalent about it, more
than likely I will have to take another peek at it, and take more time in
finding whether or not I like it.
: > honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
: > catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
: > painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
: > so bad,
:
: Again, I don't think this is a given. I think he's worlds above MCs
: like Guru and Jeru. The one beef I have is that the flow and the beat
: don't always mesh really well.
: Still, Co-Flow's appeal is far from simply lyrics and race. I
I would say that the flow and beat more often clash than flow. I would
also say that even if the lyrics flowed with the beat, his actual method
of practically screaming lyrics just sounds fake. Scientifical Screaming?
I can't dig. Science can be dropped with an edge, with serenity, with
anger, but screaming out your science makes it seem like you are trying to
be harder than you are.
All IMO.
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Sorry for the parody, but in all honesty, headz out here will play just
> about anything, from Coast to Coast, so long as it is dope. Peeps here
> feel east coast, south coast, west coast beats, north and south beats.
> You name it.
OK, I gave you the easy out the first time around, but since you just
said a West coast head will rock ANY fat beat I really can NOT see how
you don't find Company Flow the most incredibly head-nodding hip-hop
shit going when it comes to beats. That motherfucking album gives my
neck calisthentics everytime it's in the changer or the discman. If
you can feel a fat beat, you should be feeling Company Flow. But if
those beats are a stinky pile of poo to you, well, my man, that's all
on you because it's a big world with a lot of diversity in it and I
would hate for you to like something you hate just because we say so.
Somehow it doesn't strike your appeal-o-meter, so whatever's clever.
> I already established the lyrics are good. Perhaps El-P should start
> producing spoken word, rather than MUSIC.
It's hard for me to discern which you hate more - the beats or flows.
OK, I admitted El-P's style can get annoying, but it's also UNIQUE.
I like his flow for the fact nobody spits shit like that let alone
the fact nobody else wouldn't even try. So what that it doesn't always
work? At least it's not the same old like every other generic MC.
> reactions to my suggestion that it might be a "foot-in-the-door" for white
> MC's has brought out such a negative manner, that I think I might have
> stated something that hits too close to home for some headz.
Perhaps, but I'm not going to offer any beef on it nor start any because
I acknowledge that there may be a lot of white fans who think El-P is
"their foot in the door". But then so was MC Serch. So was Kam'Ron.
So is Eminem. So is Cage. A lot of white people will dig on another
white dude who happens to rip shit, but *ONLY* (and this is important)
after he's ALREADY been validated by the underground. Or as an author
in the latest XXL I picked up said "Black people set the trends, white
people copy them." If there weren't at least SOME heads in the indie/
underground scene who felt El-P, he'd be ghost. Without Fat Beats,
without Stretch and Bobbito, without Rawkus, without BET, we wouldn't
even be having this discussion. One of them could have faked an
interest in "the weird white boy" for a gimmick or ratings but I doubt
that ALL of them did.
*flips two more cents on the table*
Alexander Carlton
: In article <727n18$5j8$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ner...@catbert.ucdavis.edu
: says...
: > I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit.
: Of course, y'all on the West, and heads feel a different kind of beat
: out there. Not better, not worse, just different.
"I'll take West Coast Beats for $1000 dollars, Alex."
"The answer: Infinite"
"What are the number of different styles in rotation, production, and
distribution throughout the Bay Area?"
"That is correct!"
Sorry for the parody, but in all honesty, headz out here will play just
about anything, from Coast to Coast, so long as it is dope. Peeps here
feel east coast, south coast, west coast beats, north and south beats.
You name it.
: > The delivery, well, let's be honest,
: > the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
: > catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
: > painful to listen to.
:
: I will grant that El-P's spastic superfast delivery can be a little hard
: to deal with and/or occasionally annoying. I will also grant Neil had
: a valid point when we discussed the fact that El-P's superscientifics is
: a style/gimmick designed to appeal to the underground: kids feel smarter
: by listening to El-P rap; it strokes their mental ego. Now given I'm
: willing to grant these two points, I would like to flip the script:
I already established the lyrics are good. Perhaps El-P should start
producing spoken word, rather than MUSIC.
: And I respect that. I don't think you need to justify not liking CoFlow
: to yourself, the newsgroup, underground heads, or anybody else. It's
: just a gut feeling, and instead of a long argument which you present
: it can be summed up in your statement "steaming heap of dogshit." That's
: how you truly feel, and no argument from me about El-P's complexity or
: the thickly chunky East coast beats is gonna change your POV.
I am not justifying my feelings. I know my feelings, and I don't care if
anyone else agrees with my feelings. However, I am interested in whether
or not anyone finds that my theory might have any validity. So far, the
reactions to my suggestion that it might be a "foot-in-the-door" for white
MC's has brought out such a negative manner, that I think I might have
stated something that hits too close to home for some headz.
: I would refer you to the post Wuz! made earlier today on Eminem for
: my answer to this question.
I checked the post. Wuz! has some very valid points. I readily accept
the gimmick/style comparisons. That is why I did not mention any gimmick,
even though the style of superscientifical lyrics was noted. I know many
MC's who use it, both good (Acealone), and bad (Keith Murray, some wack
chair throwing motherfucker), but the only manner in which I will use
"gimmick" is when referring to the Wu-Tang Clan, and not in a manner of
distaste, but rather in acceptance of what they themselves must see their
approach to Hip-hop has.
: > All replys welcome, love me, hate me, I don't care, I want opinions.
: *layin two cents out on the table*
Two cents closer towards accumilating all the wealth, like the good jew I
am.
Sean Flynn
Carlton) wrote:
>In recent times, Cerkit Breaker and I have been trying to evaluate why
>Company Flow has such a large underground following. In class, we spoke
>with one person who had nothing but praise for Company Flow, and nothing
>but diss for most other hip-hop groups.
It's probably a classic case of tribalism (i.e. white people flocking
to white hip-hop artists)...or they're getting too fucked up with this
"underground" shit (i.e. they've been totally sickened by major label
artists that all they know how to do is prop up the indie artists).
But what were these other groups they were dissing?
>I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
>honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
>catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
>painful to listen to.
I give Company Flow props for the following:
Vital Nerve
Corners '94
Blind
Collude Intrude (although they had some help)
Vital Nerve is a bonifide, hands-down, dope track. Decent
deliveries...and a nice simple beat that meshes well with Co Flow's
style.
Corners '94 uses a somewhat familiar beat...and it's also pretty
simple. And Juss & El P don't fuck up the song either...they actually
did a good job.
For Blind & Collude Intrude, I may be reaching with these 2 tracks,
but I found them pretty decent. I admit, the MCs go a little cuckoo at
times...but it's not a bad listen.
As for everything else Co Flow has released...I dunno...it's
definitely hard to swallow...and I think they definitely cross the
line from innovative music to abnoxious noise.
> El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
>so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
>Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
>seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
>dogshit.
Actually, come to think of it, Co Flow's career & releases kinda
parallels that of Jeru The Damaja, IMO:
* Jeru's smash hit was Come Clean (Vital Nerve received similar
recognition).
* Then he came with a couple more nice tracks - D Original and Can't
Stop The Prophet (esp. the Pete Rock Remix).
* Like a dummy, I started buying everything that had Jeru's name on
it...and even went back to Daily Operation to re-listen to his verse
on I'm The Man (indulged in similar activities with Co Flow).
* When the LP dropped, the rest of the tracks (other than 12"
material) went over my head...although some people were calling it a
classic. IMO, Da Bitchez was pretty dumb and Make The Devil Happy was
not the least bit enjoyable to listen to (a lot of this applies to
Funcrusher) . I won't even speak about Wrath of the Math (watch out
for Co Flow's sophmore release...ouch!).
* Like Co Flow...I've heard many reports of Jeru's wack stage show (Co
Flow has also been guilty of many a lackluster performance)...and
Jeru's wack personality (El P can also be a whiny little punk).
And look what's become of Jeru...
But somehow...I think it's people like that person in your class that
will keep Co Flow in business for many years to come...regardless if
they start doing Goth shit with Marlyn Manson...or do cameos on John
Tesh albums.
This is what makes die-hard Co Flow fan's so potentially destructive
to hip-hop music IMO. They'll prop up shit because it's white or
because they can relate to it...kinda like most of these Beastie Boys
fans out there. More on this in a bit...
>But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
>while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
Dope material cannot be overlooked IMO.
I really liked (and still like) Come Clean...and I really enjoyed
Can't Stop The Prophet. For those two songs alone...I refuse to
totally dismiss Jeru as a wack idiot punk.
Vital Nerve also gets decent rotation on my turntables...as opposed to
85% of the rest of their material. I dunno...I still can't bring
myself to dismiss Co Flow as totally wack...
And I also dig the Beasties...they've had a handful of singles that
have got me open and I thought Paul's Boutique was pretty cool
too...so I fail to totally dismiss them as idiots.
The problem with this is that it leaves people in catch-22 situation:
"I really like the Beastie's new "Body Movin'" 12", I think the
remixes are dope, but why am I supporting material from a group that
will be a major contributer to the all-out destruction of hip-hop
music?"
It leaves all fans of hip-hop music in a strange situation IMO.
>Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
>good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
>presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
Co Flow has some skills IMO...but after the release of that End To End
Burners 12"...I'm starting to think shit like Vital Nerve was a fluke.
As for the whole white headz thing:
Co Flow make it easier for insecure white "headz" to feel wanted and
accepted in hip-hop music. This is a very bad thing because I'm
starting to find out that there's a lot of insecure white headz out
there.
I don't think you'll ever catch an Emanem, El-P, or Siah do songs like
"Black Korea", "Can't Truss It", "Fuck Tha Police", "The Message", or
"Fight The Power".
No matter how dope they are, they will never be able to make songs
like the one's I listed. And this is a really big problem IMO.
>Inquiring minds would like to know, and this subject is of rather extreme
>importance to the Advocates International Hip-Hop Dissemination Project.
Advocates International Hip-Hop Dissemination Project?
---
Sean Flynn sfl...@pobox.com
University of Ottawa - 4th Year Computer Engineering
http://pobox.com/~sflynn/hiphop.html
JONM AYTAC
: I would say that the flow and beat more often clash than flow. I would
if this were exactly so, it would be a musical achievement. I just saw an
underground show where the opening act was a crew of white cats trying to
velocerap. The problem was these cats were so on beat that while the speed
was impressive, there style left me musically bored. The off beat/on beat
shit can be exploited for rhythmic tension to good effect. In Co-Flow's
case, the MC's don't seem to be in complete control of this tension, but
they do recognize its value. So its a case of an ambitious undertaking
and a haphazard execution that only sometimes succeeds. I suppose the successes
would be your golden nuggets. I do like the fact that they attempt something
difficult, that they are trying to sound better than they can. That positivism
may in fact eventually get them somewhere. However they aren't really all that
severely synchopated or anything. If you think about El-P's verse on the _fire
in which you burn_ "wonder how to get bent/ that flaming malatov shit/
unstoppable object hits an immovable wall and space split" yeah its kinda cool
but 1) its all end rhymes and 2)all the rhymes come on the down beat and
3) all the pauses come just after the down beat. So its not super complicated,
stylistically, and its definitely not super off beat or synchopated or
anything. That's my problem with jocking Co-Flow too hard: there syntax
really isn't as fucked up as people make it out to be. I saw Megabusive
the other day and I thought "now here's some thoughtful onbeat off beat
shit". Freestyle Fellowship and Saafir definitely did more for rhythmic
tension in hiphop than Co-Flow.
That said, I think the tone of their deliveries is cool- I like the fact that
they grab mics and sound angry spittin all that super-scientifical shit. That
and their production (c'mon- those beats are fucking bad as fuck) are their
strongest points. In fact, I think that's the whole co-flow concept as they
imagined it. It's an attempt at mixing hype vocal tones, bangin beats and
avant garde MC'ing. They just came up short on the last part. i
Yeah but basically their cult following is most likely largely white folks
with a complex about their involvement in hiphop as well as other cats who
would like to be on some next shit but haven't been exposed to the truly
vanguard shit upon which Co-flow is based.
peace
--
applesauce
: By your argument, underground would be subjective, and Puff Daddy could be
: made out to be the greatest underground artist ever. This is not the
: case, therefore, even as subjective, there seems to be some standard to
: apply. What that standard is, is not yet determined, although we at
: Advocates International are interested in exploring this.
Hmmm. No i don't see that. Of course Underground and mainstream is
subjective to a point (as is just about everything) but i'm arguing that
preference for beats and lyrics is subjective. There is a standard for
production, delivery, content, etc. that is representitive of a
technically good product. If you jack the loop of an 80's hit in 1998
(and don't do anything with it), you have not produced a technically good
beat. If you rap three verses of A-B-A-B, you haven't created a
technically good lyrical product. But from there on out (lyrically) it's
pretty wide open. I'm not saying El-p is some sort of delivery wizard
that deserves a bronze mic, but i think his off beat delivery is more
acceptable than jacking a beat from a Police song. El-p doesn't appear to
be pimping hip hop, Puffy obviously is. Of course, i don't know el-p or
his ideology, so maybe he is trying to use this little gimmick to pimp hip
hop. If that's his plan, i'd say he's a pretty bad business man. So how
could puffy be defined as the greatest underground artist ever (given this
criteria)?
: Thank you for your comment(s), I shall take them into account.
Gracias. I need to put more thought into this one.
applesauce
: Gracias. I need to put more thought into this one.
Ok, i did and i see where you're coming from on this white savior (el-p)
legitimizing the white man's place in hip hop. I just don't think that it
plays out in real terms. So by white heads really jocking co-flow (el-p),
are black heads supposed to jump on board? I don't see that happening. I
don't think anybody (white or black) really believes that that's a
possibility. I may have trouble relating to
your point of reference cause i'm in milwaukee and there aren't a-lot of
real heads around. I see white cats, black cats, asian cats, pacific
islander cats jocking co flow.
They're the underground sweetharts. They're also 2/3 black (i think). At
best (that is if mr. len is not white) they're 1/3 white. So why just Co
Flow? Why doesn't Dose or eye-dea or Sole or Siah have as fanatical a
following? If these white heads are trying to prove that white people
have a place in hip hop and that white emcees can really represent, why
just el-p? Siah is twice the rapper el-p is (technically and in my
opinion) so why not offer up the best proof you have? I think we all know
that race has
nothing to do with the potential to spit dope one-liners and
move a crowd. Sure, some people are still gonna write you
off based on perception and preconceptions, but for the
most part, hip hop audiences are pretty open minded in 98.
That's a-lot more than can be said for other arenas/circles in 98.
But back to my point. I think your focus is too narrow. To say
that the only (or main) reason white people are jocking
Company Flow is because they're gonna some how open racial
barriers for white emcees just doesn't click. Why didn't 3rd bass
have this kind of a following back in like 91 or 92? They
were 2/3 white. I think that the same cats that soooper jock Co Flow
in 98 are the same cats that sooooper jocked Wu Tang back in 94/95.
They were the wu-riders. I don't know how many hardcore ex-wu tang
fans i've seen be strictly on indy hip hop's nuts now. These kids won't
even listen to Gangstarr because that shit's on Virgin. Rawkus is
becoming too big for them. I just think these people are really
fanatical, not just really fanatical when it comes to Co Flow.
I do think that there are stigma issues involved, but not
legitimization ones. Sure, white emcees are tired of escaping
the vanilla ice/snow complex. They're tired of being seen as
the goofy white guy. There are probably lots of fans and emcees
that latch on to El-p as some sort of proof. "See, if he can be dope,
i can be dope too." I'm sure this is a factor, but i don't think it's the
main one. It basically comes down to the fact that Co-Flow is doing
something really different. When you do some weird shit, people
are gonna follow. I also think that Co flow appeals more to white than
black audiences. I've found that cats that listen to heavy metal and
punk music are more accepting of Co flow than cats that listen to
DMX and Jay Z (supposedly members of the same genre with CF).
This is not to say that only white people listen to heavy
metal and only black people listen to DMX, but i think you see what i
mean.
Wes Eckmayer
Alexander Carlton wrote:
> In recent times, Cerkit Breaker and I have been trying to evaluate why
> Company Flow has such a large underground following. In class, we spoke
> with one person who had nothing but praise for Company Flow, and nothing
> but diss for most other hip-hop groups.
Its the DJ Shadow,Spooky and DR. Octagon white nerds. They are misdirected
alternative kids who would have told you that Ultra MAg,Jungle
Brothers,Digable Planets, Arrested Development,Public Enemy or Disposable
Heroes of Hiphocrisy were the only good Hip Hop in times past. That does not
mean Co Flow or Digable Planets sucked because white nerds tried to think
they knew more about black music then black people.
Its just your ttypical white bitch shit.
Baby out with the bath water.
>
>
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
> honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
> Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
> seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
> dogshit.
My friend told me cause most drums played by hand on the key pad sound
sloppy.
He said thats why their shit sounds sloppy.
I don't mind the sloppyness it adds to the awkardness that I enjoy about
them.I still think the RZA is a better producer than anyone but Primo,cause I
like hard awkardness.
What I like about the RZa is the same as Co Flow.
I like them cause they've taken the traditional NYC style and thrown it on
acid.
Hard beats and hard rhymes that are noisy and off beat. You don't have to be
a spiritual,jazz Native Tongue type to be unique.
RZA does'nt even pronounce the beginng of half the words he says but he still
is nice.
Another freind of mine hates Common cause he considers him to be simply
playing with the rhyme due to the lack of structure he has compared to an OC
or NAs.And him saying things like "i reign suprme like Rain Man".
I have other friends who hat Kweli cause his voice has no soul. Or Acey
sounds like a white boy. Or RAs KAss can't ride a beat properly. Kool Keith
Just talks over a beet. Reakwon gargles his verses out.
There are plenty of reasons to find flaws in MC's.
It is subjective. i know people who like MOP better than all of the above
because of the energy they bring. Hell I'll listen to NOre at times.
While Co Flow's flow may not be the most technical thing in the world,it is
difficult to pull offwithout sounding like a metal head (Every mc outside of
Bahamdia on the Army of Pharoahs joint.) Its like dissing KRS cause
Proffesser X could'nt rhyme.
I hate most sceintific mc's but I get what Co FLow is saying"
"the kasprov pact"-Kasprov played chess against IBM who would be the "Deep
Blue Oligachy"
"I see through pussy like the invisble women"
"Karouke mc's need not recieve cheese thats the whole point"
"Forced to tickle elmo til he pissed his little briches"
"Just cause he was dipped in powder blue he thought he could rhyme past el'
Impeach natilais substitute mardi gras?
You could'nt hang if you were bit by a radioactive spider?
LAST GOOD SLEEP
LUNE TNS....
lyrics such as "inhale the exhaust from buses like Revs and Cost,I bomb" Or
crew tight sport the the vandal", get me amped cause here is a Hip hop crew
that is actually familar with graff. Not just yelling clothing brands out.
Now this can only take us so far cause Lords Of Brooklyn obviuosly sucked.
But that fact that I already like the sound,I like the graff referances. Big
Juss is tha graff writer of the crew,so the identity thing based on race.
I do know black heads that dig them any how. I think people sterotype black
audiences too much. I've heard Spirit,Kari Orr on this board give them props.
Primo,Evil Dee?Specifically that does'nt even bring into account every day
cats that I talk to.
Obvously a Jodeci fan isn't gonna be buying Co Flow. But I doubt terribly
too many Jodeci fans checked for "Word Life",or "Exticntion Agenda" . Is OK
no longer Hip hop cause they can't cross over?
Their production is unique and inmprving check End to End vs Bad Touch? El-P
is putting a lot more into beats. C'mon trhe cat took like a popeye smple and
Chariots of Fire or some shit and made Last Good Sleep which I would have
never guessed sampled that shit until my boy told me.
And mad heads were open on "Fire". KRS even liked Vital Nerve enough to rhyme
over it on Tony Touch tape 50. I saw one of the cats in the nYC tapes kings
put Vitlanerve on his tape 2 years ago and did not even have the groups name
right. so...
There is substance. If you don't like them fine.
I don't like Jurassic Five or Defari. They still are Hip hop. Why not take
on Evidance. On that joint that he sampeld KRS he did not eq out the
background noise so it clashed unintentionaly. He is white.
Co flow could never legitimize whites in Hip hop. John Brown couild'ne make
white people accepted easily.So heads would say,that dude is cool but most
white people are still corny.
And most white kids will remain wack regardless.
No need for alarm.
Wes Eck.
4 Elements Radio
88.7 Lafayette,LA
> But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
> while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
>
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
>
> Inquiring minds would like to know, and this subject is of rather extreme
> importance to the Advocates International Hip-Hop Dissemination Project.
>
> All replys welcome, love me, hate me, I don't care, I want opinions.
>
Mathew Chakko
>* When the LP dropped, the rest of the tracks (other than 12"
>material) went over my head...although some people were calling it a
>classic. IMO, Da Bitchez was pretty dumb and Make The Devil Happy was
>not the least bit enjoyable to listen to (a lot of this applies to
>Funcrusher) . I won't even speak about Wrath of the Math (watch out
>for Co Flow's sophmore release...ouch!).
Man, Ain't the Devil Happy is one of my favorite songs. I still like Jeru a
lot.
******************************************************************
* Mathew Chakko http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~mchakko *
* The B-Boy scientist with the High IQ *
* mchakkowhat???@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu.chump *
* To email delete the two obviously falsely inserted bits in *
* the address (What??? Chump.) *
* *
* Rubble becomes structure from the beauty of confusion *
* Alchemy: heal your pain with art, learn to use it - El-P *
******************************************************************
Kenneth Hyde
: good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
: presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
<<Well, for this theory to be valid, the only underground heads jocking Co
Flow would have to be White. True, the large majority of Co flow's fans
are probably white, but the large majority of underground and mainstream
fans are white too. It has something to do with the relative populations
here in these united states. Do any Black heads really want to
"legitimize the white presence in hip hop?" I doubt that very highly.
I don't think they're all against this legitimization, but surely not a
strong proponent for it. Are there Black underground heads? Yes. Are
there Black co flow fans? Yes. >>
Right here!!
Mr. Hyde
Kenneth Hyde
<727n18$5j8$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
> while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
>
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
<<I like the beats and lyrics because I think they are dope....no other
reason.>>
Why are you biting my feelings like that?? I think they are dope..no
other reason!!
Peace
Mr. Hyde
treym...@my-dejanews.com
> In recent times, Cerkit Breaker and I have been trying to evaluate why
> Company Flow has such a large underground following. In class, we spoke
> with one person who had nothing but praise for Company Flow, and nothing
> but diss for most other hip-hop groups.
That's interesting...I could see some folks being into the Beastie Boys but
not other hip-hop. But Co. Flow? That's definitely different.
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit.
Actually, I thought that the production on "Funcrusher Plus" was
incredible. It's the only reason I put the CD in my player. In fact, I'd say
it was in the top 5 of the best production of last year (1997, right?).
> the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to.
Here's where you and I merge, Alex. After all of the RMHH hype about Co.
Flow, I was somewhat disillusioned after hearing these cats. El-P's voice
sounds like a 13 year old kid fighting with puberty. His voice annoys me.
His delivery is unimpressive. I'll give him some points on some good lyrics,
but if he can't put them out there properly, then he loses.
> El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best,
I'm going to go back and check the production again. I'm far from
knowledgeable on the subject, so I don't know what would exactly constitute
sloppy production. Give me some things to look for, Alex.
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good,
Honestly, no, they are not.
> or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
I *really* hope that this is not the case. The only cats that I've heard
talk about Co. Flow are here on RMHH and we're maybe 60% white (that's an
estimate, someone school me if I'm off). I'd prefer some more hands-on
opinions before I make that assumption.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Kenneth Hyde
with a complex about their involvement in hiphop as well as other cats who
would like to be on some next shit but haven't been exposed to the truly
vanguard shit upon which Co-flow is based.>>
Actually, I am neither. A black listener who has been exposed to "the
truly vanguard shit upon which they are based"...True they aren't the
next coming, but they are dope without question. I still love End to End
Burners as well as the Funcrusher Plus LP...
Peace
Mr. Hyde
Kenneth Hyde
> producing spoken word, rather than MUSIC.
<<It's hard for me to discern which you hate more - the beats or flows.
OK, I admitted El-P's style can get annoying, but it's also UNIQUE.
I like his flow for the fact nobody spits shit like that let alone
the fact nobody else wouldn't even try. So what that it doesn't always
work? At least it's not the same old like every other generic MC.>>
Subjectivity is so great...now we got people defining what is and what
isn't music...
Mr. Hyde
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
ner...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Alexander Carlton) wrote:
> B. David Harrison (bdha...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : On 9 Nov 1998, Alexander Carlton wrote:
>
> : > I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
>
> : I think you're way in the minority. Your post probably should be more
> : about people's perceptions of the beats.
>
> Correction: I am in the majority, else Company Flow wouldn't be
> "underground"
this is a very ignorant comment
...nesta...
____________________________________________________
Most of you can't understand what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
_____________________________________________________
or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu
ner...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Alexander Carlton) wrote:
> In recent times, Cerkit Breaker and I have been trying to evaluate why
> Company Flow has such a large underground following.
- The dj's(and underground heads) who first heard Co-Flow in the
early days, before they hype, genuinely liked them, for beats and
rhymes. Many had the same misgivings about the voice, the
flow, the abstract vs the concrete, but the music was
quality.
You could also make the argument that a good percentage
of college radio dj's are white kids looking for legitimacy,
and that has an effect on the listeners too.
Then the dissemination began. Upon realization that the
best mc was white skinded , insecure white fans got into the
mix,make El_p the poster boy for white kids in hip hop.
The electronica kids and avant-guardians, like Co Flow
because they are not Puffy, Not Master P, not Wu Tang,
and not any other popular group in hip hop, underground
or commercial. I actually prefer the insecure white kids
to the hipper than thou crowd.
In with the electronica kids and the A-G's, are the
hip hop elitists, who are pro indy, anti-major label,
anti-commercial.
The co flow fanatics tend to be from the insecure
white kids, or from the underground elitists.
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good,
Last good sleep was one of the best songs of 97, so I would
definitely say that lyrically they can bring it.
> or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
Company Flow, along with Non-Phixion, Siah and Yeshua,
and Eminem help to legitimize the white presence, much
more so than Blood of Abraham, 3rd Bass, and dare I mention
Vanilla Ice.
But Co Flow is helped out because they are on the current
favorite label, Rawkus. In addition, their political philosophy
of indy as fuck, don't care if people don't understand them,
also resonates with people.
There is definitely a hint of the white male angst with the
white fans of co-flow, but how wide this is, I don't think
many of us could really tell you.
The fact that EL-p and M&M get a disproportionate share
of the discussion on rmhh is reason enough to investigate
though.
peace
k. orr
house of phat beats
Alexander Carlton
Don't have time to address all of your comments, but I'll hit and miss.
All are going into the archive, cuz' this thread is rich with shit me and
Cerkit can go over.
To the only comment totally worthless and out of place: Underground
Artists have a minority of listeners. If they go platinum, they are no
longer underground. My not liking Company Flow puts me with the majority,
else Company Flow would no longer be underground.
Mr Hyde: I was not stating what is and isn't music, I was saying perhaps
El-P ought to do Spoken Word, rather than make music.
In the end, yes, underground vs. mainstream, dope/wack beats, delivery,
lyrics, they are all subjective.
In response to applesauce: Puffy is underground (this is a stretch, and
all hypothetical), because he is the first artist to jack 80's beats,
place money/power/respect rhymes on top of it, after touching it up so it
is easier to dance to, while dickriding the death of his "friend"
Christopher Wallace, who in turn had before cameos of Puffy. Before
Puffy, that hadn't been done. He's new, he's experimental.
...and subjectively speaking, he still fucking sucks.
In the end, there is a standard applied, however abstract it is. There is
something that separates the different aspects of hip-hop. There is a
reason that when Cypress Hill first came out, I didn't know if I liked it
or not (mainly because IMO, Cypress Hill was drastically different from
any other hip-hop I had encountered up to that point).
For the person who asked about the Advocates International Hip-Hop
Dissemination Project: I am a member of Advocates International. We are
attempting to understand hip-hop to the best of our ability, so that when
we turn to music production, we can guarantee a product that is not only
dope, but 100% Guaranteed.
For further inquiries, please visit our web page
http://www.mother.com/~cerkit/aihome.htm
I would like to thank you all for the comments... I'll try to answer some
more a while later...
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> The fact that EL-p and M&M get a disproportionate share
> of the discussion on rmhh is reason enough to investigate
> though.
Only due to the fact that people keep posting ignorant shit like:
"You really can't like this cat right? He's a corny white fuck."
Some people just find it impossible to accept that they can emcee.
I would never put either of them on the level of Rakim or KRS-One,
but then, nobody asked me to. For undergroud indie vanguard type
artists, I would argue that kids like Em and Cage and El-P have
just as much to offer as J-Live, Dilated Peoples, and Mountain Bros.
Race is an issue in America. In politics. In the dissemination
of Hip-Hop culture. But at the end of the night when we get done
discussing the music and the politics and the state of America, it
all comes down to this:
WILL YOU BOOM IT IN YOUR BOOMBOX OR WON'T YOU?
If it's some corny sounding half-assed lyrically wack and musically
stale shit, of course not.
If it's some fresh, funny, fly or thought-provoking shit over some
next level snap ya neck beats, of course you will.
The only reason there are so many threads about Eminem and El-P is
that people expect the continual justification of why we like them.
As though we did something wrong to like them because they are white.
If liking Eminem is a crime because he is white, I'm guilty as charged.
Happily so. Lock me up and stamp my hip-hop pass invalid, and I'll
laugh my way to the asylum listening to that sick motherfuck spit some
of the funniest shit I've ever heard.
Alexander Carlton
: If liking Eminem is a crime because he is white, I'm guilty as charged.
: Happily so. Lock me up and stamp my hip-hop pass invalid, and I'll
: laugh my way to the asylum listening to that sick motherfuck spit some
: of the funniest shit I've ever heard.
I haven't heard to much of Eminem, but what I have heard, I've liked.
Ross A Macwhinney
>>You could also make the argument that a good percentage
of college radio dj's are white kids looking for legitimacy,
and that has an effect on the listeners too.>>
So what does it mean when a white kid really doesn't like Co Flow's
sound? I may be insecure about grabbing the mic, but that is probably
because I can't flow, not because I feel that no white man can flow. I
feel people are more products of their environment. If you've been
rhyming for a while among other good mcs you will probably turn out to
be able to rip it, regardless of race.
I have always been more into a rappers flow style than his lyrics.
Probably the reason I think Buckshot is one of the hypest mcs and can't
really get into heads like Chino XL and EL-P.
I think M&M is pretty funny, but a whole album of his would really get
on my nerves.
total side note: L-Fudge was on a Pittsburgh radio show last Saturday
(720) freestyling and I just have to say, he came off. I guess he is
recording a track with a local group Strict Flow or something. Plus I
heard that Blackstar is coming to town to record a track at one of the
Steelers' studio. It's weird that all of the sudden these groups are
showing up here. Hopefully we'll see more shows as a result. Live hip
hop can energize you for a while.
rossm
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Steve 'Flash' Juon (no.spam...@flash.com) wrote:
>
> : If liking Eminem is a crime because he is white, I'm guilty as charged.
> : Happily so. Lock me up and stamp my hip-hop pass invalid, and I'll
> : laugh my way to the asylum listening to that sick motherfuck spit some
> : of the funniest shit I've ever heard.
>
> I haven't heard to much of Eminem, but what I have heard, I've liked.
Not that I don't appreciate you giving Eminem props, but what's the point
of your post? Are you responding to say that, in fact, you don't hate
white rappers, just El-P in particular?
Either way I'm cool with you not liking CoFlow, and I've said so from
the jump. Just don't expect me to feel the same. I like their beats
and I like the lyrics. I like Eminem cause he cracks me up, I like El-P
cause he gets me thinkin. I like Big Juss cause he's back to basics with
a lot of love for ALL the elements. Continue onward out into indie rap.
I like J-Live cause he's got some of the best metaphors and similes I've
heard. I like how Defari comes widdit stylewise. I like people for what
they do, not who they are. I think that's what you were trying to say,
so you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace, Flash
Kenneth Hyde
Hip-Hop Di.. by Steve 'Flash' Juon@flash
> that people expect the continual justification of why we like them.
> As though we did something wrong to like them because they are white.
I wouldn't say that's the ONLY reason, but it is a significant one. It's
like folks get adamant that it's possible to like Co Flow and Eminem,
and it is strictly because of some socio-economic background or what you
want hip-hop to become. Shit it's music. i like it because it sounds
good to me....
Peace
Mr. Hyde
Kenneth Hyde
> (720) freestyling and I just have to say, he came off. I guess he is
> recording a track with a local group Strict Flow or something. Plus I
> heard that Blackstar is coming to town to record a track at one of the
> Steelers' studio. It's weird that all of the sudden these groups are
> showing up here. Hopefully we'll see more shows as a result. Live hip
> hop can energize you for a while.
yup, he was cool on there. My boy Brian called me up on a high because
he flowed back and forth with L-Fudge for a few hours at a party. You
know blackstar is performing at CMU right?? November 21st!! I'm there
Peace
Mr. Hyde
k_...@hotmail.com
overall i thought co flow was pretty nice....
some songs didn't appeal to me and some took gettin used to..
'fires in which you burn' comes to mind first....
living where i do (australia) it takes a while for some info to filter
through.. often things like pictures of the artists take a while.... when i
first heard co flow i didn't know el-p was white... and it didn't make a
difference when i found out.... the level of enjoyment i received by
listening to their tracks was neither raised or lowered... the songs i didn't
like i still don't like....
as to production and flow... well alot of this is subjective and according to
personal tastes... but i don't know which post it was but the person wrote
that the flow and beats sometimes do not mesh well... i do agree with that...
--
Peace,
Kai
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.hip-hop: 10-Nov-98 Re: Company Flow
> > The only reason there are so many threads about Eminem and El-P is
> > that people expect the continual justification of why we like them.
> > As though we did something wrong to like them because they are white.
>
> I wouldn't say that's the ONLY reason, but it is a significant one.
I admit only was an exaggeration. I see we agree anyway. :>
> Shit it's music. i like it because it sounds good to me....
My sentiments exactly. If it doesn't appeal to your tastes, that's you.
I like it, and I can explain why -- and others can call it bull squat if
they like but when the argument is said and done nothing really changes.
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
ner...@dogbert.ucdavis.edu (Alexander Carlton) wrote:
:
> : > I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
>
> : I think you're way in the minority. Your post probably should be more
> : about people's perceptions of the beats.
>
> Correction: I am in the majority, else Company Flow wouldn't be
> "underground"
this is a very ignorant comment
> To the only comment totally worthless and out of place: Underground
> Artists have a minority of listeners. If they go platinum, they are no
> longer underground. My not liking Company Flow puts me with the majority,
> else Company Flow would no longer be underground.
oh! i'm sorry! i didn't realize underground vs. overground was a simple matter
of whether more people like them or dislike them. i thought exposure had
something to do with it. my bad. so vanilla ice is underground too?
...nesta...
____________________________________________________
Most of you can't understand what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
_____________________________________________________
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Alexander Carlton
:
: Not that I don't appreciate you giving Eminem props, but what's the point
: of your post? Are you responding to say that, in fact, you don't hate
: white rappers, just El-P in particular?
My _question_ rather than point, was "Does co-flow get jocked because they
legitamize white MC's in hip-hop?"
I don't hate white rappers, hell, I even liked 3rd bass (other than their
kiss-the-black-man's-ass approach to subject matter). Company Flow,
however, seems to me to be a mediocre group on the whole, with a large
fanatical following. Why are they jocked so hard? IMO, El-P can't rap
circles around a wedding ring in terms of delivery, even if his lyrics
could circle a boxing ring. Delivery is a major part of MCing, whether
people say it's liks or not, the fact is, if someone is painful to listen
to, or sounds like shit (a la DOC), it doesn't matter how great the lyrics
are, the musical aspect of the song suffers a great loss, as one of the
major components, the delivery, is flawed.
Eminem is jocking a nerd/fun style, and his delivery is pretty on point,
even if he rocks an off-beat style. El-P seems like he tries at times to
be on beat, but just fucks it off most of the time.
: Peace, Flash
This thread is hard to keep up with, I'm only one guy.
Also, if I hated white MC's... I would hate myself...
"In this landless class of MC's consider me the gentry,
A sentry, guarding dope lines like a coke addict,
Convicting misdemeanor rappers with the wack rhyme verdict,
Ya heard it, but no riding my dick, you'll miss,
Catch a piece of my game, open your mouth while I piss."
-MC Dose, (c)1998 Advocates International Production
(sorry, cerkit insists that any raps I intend to use need to list the
copyright, as well as the copyright ownership)
Alexander Carlton
: > Correction: I am in the majority, else Company Flow wouldn't be
: > "underground"
: this is a very ignorant comment
:
: > To the only comment totally worthless and out of place: Underground
: > Artists have a minority of listeners. If they go platinum, they are no
: > longer underground. My not liking Company Flow puts me with the majority,
: > else Company Flow would no longer be underground.
:
: oh! i'm sorry! i didn't realize underground vs. overground was a simple matter
: of whether more people like them or dislike them. i thought exposure had
: something to do with it. my bad. so vanilla ice is underground too?
Vanilla Ice has sold more albums than a majority of rappers. Check your
information bro. Is MC Hammer underground? Is Nas underground? Is Puffy
Underground? Is Bustah Rhymes underground?
Exposure = more sales.
No exposure = less sales.
That's why we inventing this thing called marketing.
Richard D. Allen
and then argue with them? You wanted an explanation of other people's
feelings - they weren't trying to convince you to change your mind.
Anyway, I can sum up the reason I like Co Flow in four words:
fuck that happy shit.
So much underground hip-hop is this pseudo-reflective,
deep-as-a-kiddie-pool, supposedly positive shit over Dave Koz
Tribe-wannabe beats. I would much rather hear some hatred for fake MCs and
some beats that sound like a car crash. Ergo Company Flow.
And I like Big Jus, unlike a lot of people, so it's not like I'm
astride El-Pee's nuts, ya follow?
--
Richard Allen
aug...@email.unc.edu
Alexander Carlton
: First of all, why did you ask for other people's justifications
: and then argue with them? You wanted an explanation of other people's
: feelings - they weren't trying to convince you to change your mind.
I asked for no justifications. I asked a question. I responded to those
who's opinions on the subject I disagreed with, and I posted why. I made
no insults, yet received a couple. As for convincing me otherwise:
That's not possible. I do not like Company Flow, I will not like Company
Flow unless El-P gets better delivery.
: Anyway, I can sum up the reason I like Co Flow in four words:
: :fuck that happy shit.
And I can respect and understand that. However, the level at which
Company Flow is jocked is amazing, and that I cannot understand under the
context of "their good", rather, something else is going on here. Now, I
have not dismissed the chance that it really could just be "they
independent, and they have good lyrics", but really, there are so many
groups that are independent, have good if not better lyrics, better
delivery, and better beats, that are not getting jocked like Company Flow.
: So much underground hip-hop is this pseudo-reflective,
: deep-as-a-kiddie-pool, supposedly positive shit over Dave Koz
: Tribe-wannabe beats. I would much rather hear some hatred for fake MCs and
: some beats that sound like a car crash. Ergo Company Flow.
I'd rather hear some outkast, but then again, I am! (CD-ROMs at work rule)
: And I like Big Jus, unlike a lot of people, so it's not like I'm
: astride El-Pee's nuts, ya follow?
I have not stated you were on El-P's nuts. I am sorry if you feel
offended by my comments. I am merely trying to get a better grasp on what
it is that makes Company Flow one of the most heavily jocked underground
hip-hop crews.
: Richard Allen :
Tim Brown
Mathew Chakko <mchakkobut...@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu.orthischump>
wrote in article <728d7i$4...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>...
> >* When the LP dropped, the rest of the tracks (other than 12"
> >material) went over my head...although some people were calling it a
> >classic. IMO, Da Bitchez was pretty dumb and Make The Devil Happy was
> >not the least bit enjoyable to listen to (a lot of this applies to
> >Funcrusher) . I won't even speak about Wrath of the Math (watch out
> >for Co Flow's sophmore release...ouch!).
>
> Man, Ain't the Devil Happy is one of my favorite songs. I still like
Jeru a
> lot.
And what is so horrible about Wrath of the Math? I liked all the beats and
I don't think Jeru's wack like everyone else. Maybe I just don't get it...
Same with "It Was Written"...I feel like an outkast among hip hop
listeners...
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Also, if I hated white MC's... I would hate myself...
Yeah but I know more white kids who are screaming on white MC's than
I do black kids. I'd call it the paranoia effect: the white kids are
afraid that if the well-known white MC's fuck it up, it's gonna reflect
badly on all of them too; the same way Vanilla Ice created a self-imposed
moratorium on white rappers for about 5 years just by being so wack.
So the white kids will be the first to scream on a white MC if he comes
out totally ass.
I understand how you feel about El-P, so maybe we'll agree to disagree?
There are times when I actually LIKE his flow. Call me crazy. I think
it's a style, and I don't think anybody else in their right mind would
try to copy it, but it's his style and it works for him.
Mathew Chakko
>
>And what is so horrible about Wrath of the Math? I liked all the beats and
>I don't think Jeru's wack like everyone else. Maybe I just don't get it...
>
>Same with "It Was Written"...I feel like an outkast among hip hop
>listeners...
>
I agree, the Wrath of the Math was pretty solid. And I thought It Was Written
was pretty good. I think it was about a quarter very good, a quarter all
right, another quarter all right with some wack tendencies, and a quarter
pretty bad. You could kinda see where he was going but he wasn't quite there
yet.
And I'm not gonna lie, If I Ruled the World was my jam for that whole summer.
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Exposure = more sales.
> No exposure = less sales.
>
> That's why we inventing this thing called marketing.
Yeah but it's not that simple. Look at Snoop: his video was played
coast to coast and he was on the cover of every rap magazine but after
10 weeks he still couldn't crack gold. I would say Snoop is about as
well known both in and OUTside of the rap fanbase as is possible by
any one rapper, yet his massive exposure did not equal sales. In fact,
it's possible that OVERexposure may have HURT his sales, leading to
high expectations for an album that couldn't possibly live up to them.
I don't think no exposure necessarily equals less sales either. Word
of mouth has pushed Rawkus singles to selling anywhere from as few as
10K (which on indie vinyl is "ghetto gold") to as many as 70 to 80K.
I'm pretty sure Lyricist Lounge has sold over 150K and the only big
coverage was in Stress, and Black Star I'm sure will eventually sell
250K. They probably did 75K that first week it dropped due to the
sales and the hype. I remember it charted well in Billboard, which
means you've got to be pushing product.
No disrespect Alex, but that formula you posted is far too simplistic
for a very complicated and highly volatile music industry and market.
Todd Ito
: I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
: honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
: catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
: painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
: so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
: Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
: seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
: dogshit.
Well, as others have said, I think the beats are dope as fuck. I think
one reason Company Flow stands out is that their beats sound like nobody
else's. That's not the only reason I like them, but that's a large part
of the reason that they get jocked so much. As far as the delivery,
they're not the tightest rappers, but again, their deliveries are
different-sounding, which appeals to people who are looking for something
other than typical NYC thug rap. And the lyrics are really amazing to me.
A large quanity of rewind material.
: Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
: good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
: presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
No, it's not just the lyrics. I can't speak for all Co. Flow fans, but I
dig the beats almost as much as the lyrics, and the flow doesn't bother
me. I really think you're off the mark as far as the white thing goes. I
didn't even know that El-P was white until I saw a picture of him in a
magazine. Plus, although he's definitely the most "important" member of
the group, he is only 1/3 of Company Flow. I have wondered if white
people take to certain groups that are white because of a certain element
that they bring to the music. I can usually tell a white emcee not by his
voice, but by his flow. And I think a lot of white producers bring a
different perspective to making beats than a black producer would, based
on coming from a different musical background or maybe even the way they
perceive rhythm. So, maybe there's something in the beats and the
deliveries of white hip-hop artists that appeals to white fans. But, as
far as white fans being drawn to a certain group just because a member of
the group is white, I don't think so. It's more than that.
Todd
Andre' Mallette
When is the last time you ever seen any group or anything for that matter
with 66% Black folks in it called white? The DJ and (in my opinion) the
crew's best lyricist are Black.
I'm not validating white existence in hip hop for personal reasons or
whatever, because I'm Black. If it wasn't banging, it'd get no play. I'm
just as apt to play a Co-Flow CD as a Biggie Smalls, Eminem as Aceyalone,
Cage as the Roots, because they're all dope. Maybe some people say, hey
these guys are white. If they can rap we can too. But I think alot of that
would go with cats liking Eminem than Co-Flow.
So I'd say, for me, I like the whole package. Big Juss is ill and I can't
wait for his solo joint. The production and beats are tight as hell (compare
that End to End Burners with anything out now). I'm not too big on El-P's
delivery, but fuck delivery. At least he's not singing R&B shit on the track
(awhile ago I remember cats dissing Kool G Rap's delivery).
The main thing of Co-Flow is lyrics. And maybe white kids can feel Co-Flow's
lyrics because they're talking some absract shit so it can be more
universal. They'd relate more to Co-Flow than Jay Z. But all I can say is,
how can you not feel shit like "If I had to live on this Earth without
sight, I'd be the illest blind bastard to ever touch the mic" Damn.
So maybe buy buying Co-Flow I am validating the place of white headz in hip
hop. Maybe I should stop listening to them.....Nah, then I'd have to stop
listening to Latyrx and Kool Keith too. Fuck all that.
Dre'
Wise Rebel
(Alexander Carlton) writes:
>IMO, El-P can't rap circles around a wedding ring in terms of delivery,
>even if his lyrics could circle a boxing ring.
Call me crazy, but I always thought his delivery was dope on record.
Never seen him perform so I can't comment on that.
"You couldn't get signed if you had a cast on" - Wordsworth
Wise
Wise Rebel
(Mathew Chakko) writes:
>Man, Ain't the Devil Happy is one of my favorite songs. I still like Jeru a
lot.
I love that Rza sample. I like Jeru still too.
B. David Harrison
>
> And what is so horrible about Wrath of the Math? I liked all the beats and
> I don't think Jeru's wack like everyone else. Maybe I just don't get it...
As one of the main Jeru bashers, he's got no stinking flow. Dope beat
and accetable lyrics, but the delivery is just ass. No regard for the
beat or even trying to sound interesting. Delivery is very important, and
Jeru has none.
>
> Same with "It Was Written"...I feel like an outkast among hip hop
> listeners...
Contrast. Might be a nice album (I don't know, but the singles I heard
were crap), but comming from Nas it should have been so much better. You
can't paint Cistine Chapel and then try and pass of finger painting as
your next work.
B. David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
Alexander Carlton
modifications:
Track 4, Blind, has a pretty good beat. Delivery on this track was not
quite as bad as the others, so it gets the head nod towards a good track.
Not outstanding mind you, but good.
Track 13, Vital Nerve, gets the best beat on the album award. Delivery is
really bad on this track, so the liks weren't being felt, but we found
that I can freestyle really well over the beat, so fuck it it's all good.
Ending decision: If the legitimizing white headz theory is wrong, then
people are jockin' an Indie too hard. This album is really nothing
outstanding, additionally, aside from some of the beats, everything else
on it had been done before, whether by an Indie from the Bay, or a Major
from Coast to Coast. I am not impressed by the lyrical wizardry, but both
Cerkit and I freely admit we are biased against the music, because the
delivery is so hard to get past. Vital Nerve would be an excellent
instrumental, as would Blind, but quite honestly, the Mystic Journeyman
have done most of the shit that Co-Flow has, and really has not been
jocked like Co-Flow. Also Living Legends who have some nice ish.
Coming sometime in the future is a review of Eminem.
Hey Flash, when are you ever gonna send that ish? I've been waiting, and
now I'm growing old.
applesauce
: Track 4, Blind, has a pretty good beat. Delivery on this track was not
: quite as bad as the others, so it gets the head nod towards a good track.
: Not outstanding mind you, but good.
By having this whole topic dwelling in the back of my head, i realized
yesterday that El-p's delivery on B-boy document is pretty damn
conventional. It's not Will Smith, but it's a hell of a lot more regular
than say, Tragedy of war in 3 parts, where he's all over the place. Maybe
he's gonna tone it down a bit? Maybe not.....
respectfully,
applesauce
____________________________________________________________________
:This has been a Greasy Kid Inc. production. :
: :
: "This track is so dope, it should have come with 2 syringes" :
: ---Juice :
: :
: Para chuparse los dedos!:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
David Frank
summer of 97 from people going on and on about how dope they were, I saw
funcrusher plus in the record store back then and decided to give it a quick
listen. Well, everything I heard sounded like shit. Nothinng made me want to
keep any song on for more than 30 seconds. Same for this end to end burners
single this summer. I think it's the white boy legitimization factor you
mention that makes them so loved. None of the brothers I know have ever even
heard of them, and I think that's part of the appeal too -'oh gee, not many
people know about these independent kids.Boy, i'll seem really hip if i hang
on their nuts'.
They might have good intentions, like wanting to represent hip hop's elements,
but that doesn't make them dope.
Alexander Carlton wrote:
> In recent times, Cerkit Breaker and I have been trying to evaluate why
> Company Flow has such a large underground following. In class, we spoke
> with one person who had nothing but praise for Company Flow, and nothing
> but diss for most other hip-hop groups.
>
> I can't feel the beats, neither can Cerkit. The delivery, well, let's be
> honest, the delivery is a pile of crap. Nothing noteworthy, nothing
> catching to the ear, in fact, the majority of the time, the delivery is
> painful to listen to. El-P may have lyrical skills, but his delivery is
> so bad, over production that seems sloppy at best, that the only points to
> Company Flow that shine (such as their Independent stance, and lyrics),
> seem to be a couple of small gold nuggets, in a huge steaming heap of
> dogshit.
>
> But everyone seems willing to dig in, hands and faces covered in shit,
> while gleaming at the little gold nuggets they now possess.
>
> Which brings me to the point of this post: Are the lyrics really that
> good, or is it more that Company Flow seems to legitimize the white
> presence in hip-hop, that white headz can be "real" headz?
>
> Inquiring minds would like to know, and this subject is of rather extreme
> importance to the Advocates International Hip-Hop Dissemination Project.
>
> All replys welcome, love me, hate me, I don't care, I want opinions.
JONM AYTAC
: delivery is so hard to get past. Vital Nerve would be an excellent
: instrumental, as would Blind, but quite honestly, the Mystic Journeyman
: have done most of the shit that Co-Flow has, and really has not been
: jocked like Co-Flow. Also Living Legends who have some nice ish.
What? Legends are jocked HARD. PSC and BFAP are of an entirely different
lyrical lineage than ElP and Big Juss. They are set out to do different things.
They're also largely of a different production concept, more of an LA influence.
But yeah LL has some interesting shit, particularly Grouch and the 3mG's. But
they are underground superstars, make no mistake.
Also, if you don't like CoFlow's deliveries, then you don't like 'em musically.
And that's ... OK.
peace
--
[WUZ!] The Flemish Lion
Alexander Carlton wrote:
>Cerkit Breaker and I went over Company Flow again last night. Some minor
>modifications:
You still didn't like "The fire in which you burn"?
Come on now! If a country song had those lyrics it would be dope! And the
beat is fucking hype! And you can dislike El-P and Big Juss' flows, but the
Brewin and J-Tredds? You've got to be out of your mind!
Peace,
This completely pointless, rambled, probably off-topic, incoherent post,
oversaturated with both spelling and grammatical errors was provided by:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cause on the mic I got more presen(ce/ts) than attendan(ce/ts) in a class
of scitzophrenics, here here/hear hear"-J-Tredds
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** " T - E - R - R - A W - A - N C - R - E - W " ****
"The intelligent Belgian rebellion, I might go gold like medallion,
but more likely I'll go platinum"-WUZ!-
" Put this in your CD-ROM
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5145/ " Canibus
=====WUZ' HIPHOP PAGE=====
***NOW ALSO STREAMING REALAUDIO!!!!!!***
Remove "nospam" from e-mail to send personal.
WUZ! VISITOR 43 @ www.rmhh.com
FUCK RIAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve 'Flash' Juon
> By having this whole topic dwelling in the back of my head, i realized
"B-Boy Document"?!?!! Whatchu talkin bout Apples?
You got some new CoFlow shit besides "End to End" and you ain't tell us?
--
"Look out the window golly the sky is electric blue..." --> Andre B.
"Sony or Aiwa, black or white, I fit in all stereotypes" --> Wordsworth
Steve 'Flash' Juon --> contact dj.f...@pobox.com for e-mail
Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive --> http://www.OHHLA.com/index.htm
Suite 101's Hip-Hop --> http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/116
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Hey Flash, when are you ever gonna send that ish? I've been waiting, and
> now I'm growing old.
Which ish? I'm pretty sure I sent you the last tape I owed you, but if
not hit me up in e-mail and tell me what you were supposed to get and
what's supposed to be on it.
Tim Brown
Steve 'Flash' Juon <no.spam...@flash.com> wrote in article
<MPG.10b509d98...@news.earthlink.net>...
> In article <72fbsf$313$1...@uwm.edu>, r...@csd.uwm.edu says...
> > By having this whole topic dwelling in the back of my head, i realized
> > yesterday that El-p's delivery on B-boy document...
>
> "B-Boy Document"?!?!! Whatchu talkin bout Apples?
> You got some new CoFlow shit besides "End to End" and you ain't tell us?
That's a High and Mighty song, right? I heard it on the radio. It also has
Mos Def on the track.
"...there's only so much ice that you can skate on." -Common
applesauce
: That's a High and Mighty song, right? I heard it on the radio. It also has
: Mos Def on the track.
Yeah thats the one. It's got Mike Zoot too. This shit is the def beat
and about #1 on my heavy rotation list right now. I think Mr. Eon comes
off pretty week, but Mos has crazy energy and so does Zoot. El-p is just
what i expected too. I like that shit that he said, something like: "...Like
a pedafile in a room full of clergy men....cypher eject status."
And you know <plug coming> you can get it on my new mixtape, "Soft, Chewy,
Oatmeal Cookie, baked by a happy white lady hip hop".
Ross A Macwhinney
open but now I guess it's just Strict Flow and another DJ. Fuck it
though, I'm ready for something LIVE! I wish I could break cause I
think there will probably be a pretty strong b-boy presence at this one.
I just realized that there is one CoFlow song that I really like. I
don't know the name but it's only EL-Pro flowing and the hook is like:
"Witness as the pendulum swings, I got you peeping round corners"
He actually kicks a flow instead of the type of shouting style he seems
to use alot.
rossm
was that Brian Seanor? He always tells me that he refuses to pay to see
a local group because he's seen them freestyling in the radio station
too many times. I'm just like: "It's not about the group, it's more
about the crowd!" Seriously though. The main thing that makes a show
fresh is how hype the crowd is, IMO.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.hip-hop: 10-Nov-98 Re: Company Flow
Hip-Hop Di.. by Kenneth Hy...@andrew.cmu.
> yup, he was cool on there. My boy Brian called me up on a high because
> he flowed back and forth with L-Fudge for a few hours at a party. You
> know blackstar is performing at CMU right?? November 21st!! I'm there
>
> Peace
>
> Mr. Hyde
Neiladri
>> Exposure = more sales.
>> No exposure = less sales.
>>
>> That's why we inventing this thing called marketing.
>
>Yeah but it's not that simple. Look at Snoop: his video was played
>coast to coast and he was on the cover of every rap magazine but after
>10 weeks he still couldn't crack gold. I would say Snoop is about as
>well known both in and OUTside of the rap fanbase as is possible by
>any one rapper, yet his massive exposure did not equal sales. In fact,
>it's possible that OVERexposure may have HURT his sales, leading to
>high expectations for an album that couldn't possibly live up to them.
Um, Flash, what album are you talking about here? Snoop's latest? I'm only
asking because it was just certified double platinum by Billboard on October
22.
Peep it for yourself:
http://www.billboard.com/riaa/multi.html
>I don't think no exposure necessarily equals less sales either. Word
>of mouth has pushed Rawkus singles to selling anywhere from as few as
>10K (which on indie vinyl is "ghetto gold") to as many as 70 to 80K.
>I'm pretty sure Lyricist Lounge has sold over 150K and the only big
>coverage was in Stress, and Black Star I'm sure will eventually sell
>250K. They probably did 75K that first week it dropped due to the
>sales and the hype. I remember it charted well in Billboard, which
>means you've got to be pushing product.
Not to pick a fight here, but where are you getting these figures? The only
Rawkus 12" to approach 70,000 units was _Body Rock_, nothing else. And, while,
I can't speak on Blackstar's
total sales, they debuted at 58(?) and moved not more than 25,000 units. If
they moved 75K their first week, they would have debuted in the top 15 that
week.
peace,
Neil
"Cuz I'ma cool cat, just like Heathcliff"
-A.G.
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Um, Flash, what album are you talking about here? Snoop's latest? I'm only
> asking because it was just certified double platinum by Billboard on October
> 22.
> Peep it for yourself:
> http://www.billboard.com/riaa/multi.html
Word, you're right, but I know for a fact that 10 weeks after it had been
out the album still hadn't gone gold. There was a big thread about it on
here and I had checked and logged the top 100 from Billboard that week on
the group. Korn had gone platinum in two weeks and Snoop not gold after
ten, so who knows? I guess album sales REALLY picked up recently. I'm
not sure I'd put it past P to buy a million copies of their own album.
> Not to pick a fight here, but where are you getting these figures? The only
> Rawkus 12" to approach 70,000 units was _Body Rock_, nothing else.
I said most had sold at least 10K, and one or two went 70K. I'm sure
"Universal Magnetic" is up there too, and I'll stand by that and "Body
Rock" moving major units.
> And, while, I can't speak on Blackstar's
> total sales, they debuted at 58(?) and moved not more than 25,000 units
Even at that, they would have sold 100K by now.
Peace, Flash
Wise Rebel
"Andre' Mallette" writes:
>Nah, then I'd have to stop listening to Latyrx and Kool Keith too.
I thought Kool Keith was black.
dj_...@my-dejanews.com
"[WUZ!] The Flemish Lion" <nospam...@village.uunet.be> wrote:
>
> You still didn't like "The fire in which you burn"?
>
> Come on now! If a country song had those lyrics it would be dope! And the
> beat is fucking hype! And you can dislike El-P and Big Juss' flows, but the
> Brewin and J-Tredds? You've got to be out of your mind!
>
More than any other song on the album, that song took quite a while to get
used to. At first, I thought the beat was all fucked up...just way too noisy.
But nowadays, I listen to it as sort of an industrial/hip-hop hybrid and it
gets me hyped. But that Brewin kid annoys me. That slow, monotone flow he
kicks just doesn't work for me. He sounds sorta like a Master Killa with
infinitly better lyrics.
Brian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
T. Tauri
> As one of the main Jeru bashers, he's got no stinking flow.
I thought he's got a freaky freaky freaky freaky freaky flow.
Peece,
T. Tauri
Sphinx
>
> Why not take
>on Evidance. On that joint that he sampeld KRS he did not eq out the
>background noise so it clashed unintentionaly. He is white.
>
He is? Shit; now I can't like him anymore...
Peace,
Sphinx
Sean Flynn
>You got some new CoFlow shit besides "End to End" and you ain't tell us?
Check out that High & Mighty 12" with "B-Boy Document" on the a-side.
It has Mike Zoot, Mos Def, El-P, and...King Of The Beats!
Sean.
---
Sean Flynn sfl...@pobox.com
University of Ottawa - 4th Year Computer Engineering
http://pobox.com/~sflynn/hiphop.html
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
dj_...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> More than any other song on the album, that song took quite a while to get
> used to. At first, I thought the beat was all fucked up...just way too noisy.
> But nowadays, I listen to it as sort of an industrial/hip-hop hybrid and it
> gets me hyped. But that Brewin kid annoys me. That slow, monotone flow he
> kicks just doesn't work for me. He sounds sorta like a Master Killa with
> infinitly better lyrics.
Ok i have to comment on this.
the brewin is amazing. he does have flaws, but his breath control, or maybe
i should say breath retention, is nothing short of phenomenal. when he kicks
a verse, he gets to a point where you'd expect a pause, and keeps going for
like more 5 lines. the second verse on the first song of the juggaknauts
album, he probably breathes like twice. i don't know if he has actually
mastered circular breathing, but i have never heard anyone who can seem to
flow on the same breath as long as he does.
...nesta...
____________________________________________________
Most of you can't understand what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
_____________________________________________________
Kenneth Hyde
: Track 4, Blind, has a pretty good beat. Delivery on this track was not
: quite as bad as the others, so it gets the head nod towards a good track.
: Not outstanding mind you, but good.
<<By having this whole topic dwelling in the back of my head, i realized
yesterday that El-p's delivery on B-boy document is pretty damn
conventional. It's not Will Smith, but it's a hell of a lot more regular
than say, Tragedy of war in 3 parts, where he's all over the place. Maybe
he's gonna tone it down a bit? Maybe not.....>>
Shit is dope on both, so it doesn't really matter to me. I hope he
doesn't tone it down....
Mr. Hyde
Kenneth Hyde
open but now I guess it's just Strict Flow and another DJ. Fuck it
though, I'm ready for something LIVE! I wish I could break cause I
think there will probably be a pretty strong b-boy presence at this one.>>
Yup. But for some reason no one has tickets yet and the shit is next
Saturday!! I'll try and get mine soon.
<<I just realized that there is one CoFlow song that I really like. I
don't know the name but it's only EL-Pro flowing and the hook is like:
"Witness as the pendulum swings, I got you peeping round corners"
He actually kicks a flow instead of the type of shouting style he seems
to use alot.>>
That's Corners 94 from the Funcrusher EP. I liked it, but I also like
his non-delivery type delivery. I like shit like that while others can't
stand it....anything I hear by Co Flow I have liked, but I'm weird.
No offense but whenever I see a post complaining about his delivery, I
think back to the ending of End to End Burners...."HIS RHYME SUCKS!! HIS
DELIVERY SUCKS!!...." blah blah...and I can't help but laugh
<<was that Brian Seanor? He always tells me that he refuses to pay to see
a local group because he's seen them freestyling in the radio station
too many times. I'm just like: "It's not about the group, it's more
about the crowd!" Seriously though. The main thing that makes a show
fresh is how hype the crowd is, IMO.>>
Yeah it was. Actually I agree with you about the crowd. It's the whole
feeling that makes it special for me. I remember the RX show I went to
in October I think. I didn't know what to expect since I never heard
their material, just seen them at Selecta's show, but that shit was real
nice. I really feed off the emotion of the performers at a show, and
they came with that definitely plus the crowd as well, us being all
packed in to that Time Bomb store....the fact that it was so crowded in
such a small space though worked for me...
Peace
Mr. Hyde
Tim Brown
Wise Rebel <wise...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981112220305...@ngol02.aol.com>...
>
> "Andre' Mallette" writes:
>
> >Nah, then I'd have to stop listening to Latyrx and Kool Keith too.
>
> I thought Kool Keith was black.
Yeah......Damn, he must be REALLY wierd if he changes races for his next
album...
"It's time to drop GOOSES!"
Wise Rebel
>the brewin is amazing. he does have flaws, but his breath control, or
maybe
>i should say breath retention, is nothing short of phenomenal. when he
kicks
>a verse, he gets to a point where you'd expect a pause, and keeps going for
>like more 5 lines. the second verse on the first song of the juggaknauts
>album, he probably breathes like twice. i don't know if he has actually
>mastered circular breathing, but i have never heard anyone who can seem to
>flow on the same breath as long as he does.
Seriously, I've never heard anyone question Brewin as an MC. Damn he's
dope. Now, I know everyone jocks songs like "Clear Blues Skies", and
"Romper Room", and those are great songs. But everyone with the
Juggarknots album, please go back and listen to "Jive Talk" and tell me
it doesn't display some of the nicest battle lyrics you've heard. He has
a really dope voice and nice delivery also IMO. What happened to that
shit someone on this NG said he was doing with Prince Paul, some
hiphop Opera joint.
"You getting crazy ass.......whippings." - Brewin
BSE
Anyone remember the whole "El P rides the rhythm" posts?
I still stand by that he does have a dope flow but its realy original,
either you see where his feet are on teh wave/beat or you just see his
head floating, if you see it its the shit if you miss it is dog shit.
And sleeping on those beats is just funny.
BSE
----BSE----------------------------------------
"See, I was tipsy cos the sip be fruit punch
Spewed lunch, it was too much, too much to keep" - Siah
__________________BSE hip hop__________________
_____________ http://www.bseuk.com ____________
BSE
> > Not to pick a fight here, but where are you getting these figures? The only
> > Rawkus 12" to approach 70,000 units was _Body Rock_, nothing else.
>
> I said most had sold at least 10K, and one or two went 70K. I'm sure
> "Universal Magnetic" is up there too, and I'll stand by that and "Body
> Rock" moving major units.
NO way did Universal Mag sell that much, it was only thier 4th or 5th
single, they didnt have the buzz then, Co FLow hadnt blown up, Mos hadnt
started singing on shit or been affiliated with Q Tip, Rawkus wasnt
having articles written about it, etc etc, im sure it sold only a small
amount.
> > And, while, I can't speak on Blackstar's
> > total sales, they debuted at 58(?) and moved not more than 25,000 units
>
> Even at that, they would have sold 100K by now.
Im sure Blackstar are doing much better than Co FLow did by now, a lot
more people are feeling it that I know plus it got mucho radio spins on
hip hop radio here unlike CO Flow who ive only ever heard played when
they made studio appearances.
Peace, BSE.
BSE
>
> I can't get in to company flow at all either. After reading posts in the
> summer of 97 from people going on and on about how dope they were, I saw
> funcrusher plus in the record store back then and decided to give it a quick
> listen. Well, everything I heard sounded like shit. Nothinng made me want to
> keep any song on for more than 30 seconds. Same for this end to end burners
> single this summer. I think it's the white boy legitimization factor you
> mention that makes them so loved. None of the brothers I know have ever even
> heard of them, and I think that's part of the appeal too -'oh gee, not many
> people know about these independent kids.Boy, i'll seem really hip if i hang
> on their nuts'.
>
> They might have good intentions, like wanting to represent hip hop's elements,
> but that doesn't make them dope.
Allrighty then, this is starting to piss me off. Where did all the black
people who were feeling this album go?
Some onions:
Co FLow dont legitimise my palce in hip hop, they have one white member,
they are rom new york USA, another country, they are in all but music
irrelevent to my life. I dont feel i need to be legitimised or
illigitimised to RMHH or anyone else realy, Im me face it.
El P's flow is there, is very personalised, its very radiv=cal compared
to your Will Smiths and your standard follow the rakim approach to 90s
rhyming. So is Aceyalones, so is Gift of Gabs so is Siahs to an extent.
If you think its wack off beat shit then I feel sorry for you cos what
im hearing is a genuinely good and original flow with wicked punchlines.
I think the beats are mega fat.
Bad Touch Example, 8 Steps, Lune TNS, VITAL NERVE, THE FIRE IN WHICH YOU
BURN, Krazy Kings, Last Good Sleep, INFO KILL2 and 1.
All those are dope beats, and I liek a lot more of them and think its
the best production of last year, specifically those in all caps. If
your not feeling it Im sorry for you cos to me thats the best shit of
last year your missing out on.
If you dont like it fine, dont liek it but dont come on wiht those half
baked "White guy legitimiseation" theories cos EL P is teh last person
to be doing that since he hates all his fans, if anyhting EL P makes
your average white suburban hip hop consumer feel stupid and impotent.
To say it gets more props than other underground shit is wrong. It is
one of the only underground/independant albums to be released recently,
or at least it was at the time. It is very significant in that it was
teh first of these new wave of independant releases to get into the
major shops. If more people had had teh Juggaknots LP then it would have
got similar props.
If it gets all these props(not that many in the big scheme of things)
because El P is white, then why arent Cage, Siah, Necro, Non Phixion,
Arsonists and all the other white rappers getting those props?
I dont think Co FLow are the best independant group around by any means,
i dont think the general consensus on here is that either, even among
the whites, but I do think a lot of people on here including those with
plus melanin would say they had the best Long Player on and Independant
label for many a year.
Thats my onions anyway.
Can we expect an Outkast backlash or neatly avoid that one? It would be
nice to stand behind that wouldnt it? Or is someone gonna bail before it
gets to high?
BSE
Tim Brown
BSE <b...@bseuk.com> wrote in article <3650B4...@bseuk.com>...
> David Frank wrote:
> > I think it's the white boy legitimization factor you
> > mention that makes them so loved. None of the brothers I know have ever
even
> > heard of them, and I think that's part of the appeal too -'oh gee, not
many
> > people know about these independent kids.Boy, i'll seem really hip if i
hang
> > on their nuts'.
> >
> > They might have good intentions, like wanting to represent hip hop's
elements,
> > but that doesn't make them dope.
>
> Allrighty then, this is starting to piss me off. Where did all the black
> people who were feeling this album go?
Hey, I already said I liked them because I liked the beats and lyrics
because I thought the beats and lyrics were dope. Because they are. I think
all the other black fans here said something, too.
> Some onions:
>
> Co FLow dont legitimise my palce in hip hop, they have one white member,
> they are rom new york USA, another country, they are in all but music
> irrelevent to my life. I dont feel i need to be legitimised or
> illigitimised to RMHH or anyone else realy, Im me face it.
For some reason, they still believe that no matter what you say....
> If you dont like it fine, dont liek it but dont come on wiht those half
> baked "White guy legitimiseation" theories cos EL P is teh last person
> to be doing that since he hates all his fans, if anyhting EL P makes
> your average white suburban hip hop consumer feel stupid and impotent.
Heh heh....
> If it gets all these props(not that many in the big scheme of things)
> because El P is white, then why arent Cage, Siah, Necro, Non Phixion,
> Arsonists and all the other white rappers getting those props?
People just hatin on Co Flow just cause they got a video on BET. recognize
game, foo.
> I dont think Co FLow are the best independant group around by any means,
> i dont think the general consensus on here is that either, even among
> the whites, but I do think a lot of people on here including those with
> plus melanin would say they had the best Long Player on and Independant
> label for many a year.
Don't worry, they just playa hatas anyway :)
> Thats my onions anyway.
>
> Can we expect an Outkast backlash or neatly avoid that one? It would be
> nice to stand behind that wouldnt it? Or is someone gonna bail before it
> gets to high?
There already was. People praised it because it was excellent (like
mee)...then came the "oh, it's not actually that good" posts. And then the
"Source gave it 5 mics??? what the fuck!" posts.
T. Tauri
> Im sure Blackstar are doing much better than Co
> FLow did by now, a lot more people are feeling it
> that I know plus it got mucho radio spins on
> hip hop radio here unlike CO Flow who ive only ever
> heard played when they made studio appearances.
Hard to say. Depends on their deal. A LOT of money has been spent
promoting Blackstar, if that has to be recouped from royalties, Co Flow
could come out ahead easily.
Peece,
T. Tauri
KSG
BSE wrote:
>
> > > I thought Kool Keith was black.
> Hes the man,he is though, hes in my oppinion the greatest character in
> hip hop. Is the fucking man, no one else can do so many stupid things,
> have absolutely no knowledge of current hip hop, and still make some of
> the freshest and dopest hip hop.
Kool Keith? He's done maybe one track I've liked (since Ultramag that is).
In some respects he's the one that showed me that different does not equal
good (with respect to hip hop).
--
One Luv,
KSG
The UltraJam Show SRTV Tuesdays 11pm-midnight (Channel 18/Triton Cable)
Bring tha Noize KSDT
SRTV/KSDT: http://scw.ucsd.edu/
Personal: http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/~kgatlin
Tim Brown
BSE <b...@bseuk.com> wrote in article <36520E...@bseuk.com>...
> Hes the man,he is though, hes in my oppinion the greatest character in
> hip hop. Is the fucking man, no one else can do so many stupid things,
> have absolutely no knowledge of current hip hop, and still make some of
> the freshest and dopest hip hop.
>
> nutter.
>
> "These assholes is dirt specks on my rug" that is one of the dopest
> lines of the year adn the man has been yapping for like 15 years on
> wax!!!! nutter.
Yeah...it's like he's the John Travolta of hip hop, but not as famous.
> "I didn't wanna have a thought i couldnt raise,
> nurture and care for, be there for" - The 4th Bee Gee/The 2nd Cartman
The almighty Ceelo?
"I'm coming for you, little girl!"
cullen
: Hard to say. Depends on their deal. A LOT of money has been spent
: promoting Blackstar, if that has to be recouped from royalties, Co Flow
: could come out ahead easily.
I think BlackStar will be making more on publishing, though, with more
radio airplay and performances... that's how it works, right?
--
cullen
B. David Harrison
> Kool Keith? He's done maybe one track I've liked (since Ultramag that is).
> In some respects he's the one that showed me that different does not equal
> good (with respect to hip hop).
Word. The production on the Doc Oc joint was nice, but lyrically it
wasn't close to a Mase single. Technically Keith can do some nice things,
but he ain't saying shit. He's got a compelling personality on the mic,
the same kind of charisma that I think Mos Def has, but not the skills. I
would so much rather listen to Big Gip's messed up flow and deap words
than Keith's ramblings.
I'll pose the same question Alex posed to start this thread. What about
him makes him so dope? Production is nice, but then give credit to the
producer. Do other folks actually feel those lyrics? I don't get it.
B. David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
Kenneth Hyde
Some folks who don't know the source of this quote may think you're one
sick fool.
Mr. Hyde
T. Tauri
> I think BlackStar will be making more on
> publishing, though, with more radio airplay and
> performances... that's how it works, right?
Most likely. They've probably earned a lot from touring.
Peece,
T. Tauri
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
<Pine.A41.3.95b.981117...@homer30.u.washington.edu> , "B.
David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> > Kool Keith? He's done maybe one track I've liked (since Ultramag that is).
> > In some respects he's the one that showed me that different does not equal
> > good (with respect to hip hop).
>
> Word. The production on the Doc Oc joint was nice, but lyrically it
> wasn't close to a Mase single. Technically Keith can do some nice things,
> but he ain't saying shit. He's got a compelling personality on the mic,
> the same kind of charisma that I think Mos Def has, but not the skills. I
> would so much rather listen to Big Gip's messed up flow and deap words
> than Keith's ramblings.
>
> I'll pose the same question Alex posed to start this thread. What about
> him makes him so dope? Production is nice, but then give credit to the
> producer. Do other folks actually feel those lyrics? I don't get it.
>
> B. David Harrison
I don't think you can judge Keith by the same standards as you do other
people. I'm not sure why. I think there's a few people like this, Biz Markie
is another. If you wanna look at their shit hella technically, well, they
may come up short in some ways. But I see them as just their own beings, you
have to take them with a grain of salt. Was he saying anything on Dr
Octagon? Shit I don't know. But like you admit, he's got charisma, he's got
mad mic presence, which counts for a lot. And which is mase's major flaw,
worse than his lyrics. And Mase could not write the stuff on doc oc, he's not
smart enough to make that little sense. Once in a while Keith can still rip
in a straight forward manner too. "Plastic World," much as i hate to admit
it, is ridiculously on point.
i'm taking a somewhat undefendable position here i guess. i just think keith
has to be looked at on his own terms, not compared w/ anyone else or by anyone
else's standards. Don't listen to him if you're in a goodie mob mood. all i
know, is anytime he's on the mic, i sit up and listen, and don't really give a
fuck if he analyzes the faulty capitalistic structure of uncle scam or not.
Richard D. Allen
group, latino maybe but not white.
I think I'm giving up on keeping track, this is getting silly,
there's white guys everywhere.
"Is Iriscience the white guy?"
"No, that's the other guy"
"Is Yeshua the white guy?"
"no, that's... well, sort of"
--
Richard Allen
aug...@email.unc.edu
KSG
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
>
> I don't think you can judge Keith by the same standards as you do other
> people. I'm not sure why. I think there's a few people like this, Biz Markie
> is another.
What about Puff Daddy and Vanilla Ice?
> Was he saying anything on Dr
> Octagon? Shit I don't know.
This reminds me of a friend of mine who as an undergrad cut up lines from nursery
rhymes, put them in a hat and randomnly took them out and then wrote whatever line
she pulled out. She presented this as her final project in some class. Apparently
everone was just workin' to analyze it and found some remarkably deep stuff about
it.
This correlates to another of my philosophies (I hope you guys are takin'
notes!)... obfuscation is no better than randomness. I would have been just as
happy listening to white noise as I would have been hearing the lyrics from Doc Oc.
> But like you admit, he's got charisma, he's got
> mad mic presence, which counts for a lot.
But so does Oprah Winfrey, but I don't wanna hear or rap. Maybe Kool Keith can
just focus on takin' porn to "the next level".
> "Plastic World," much as i hate to admit
> it, is ridiculously on point.
That is the one song (post Ultrajam) by him I do like.
> i'm taking a somewhat undefendable position here i guess. i just think keith
> has to be looked at on his own terms, not compared w/ anyone else or by anyone
> else's standards. Don't listen to him if you're in a goodie mob mood. all i
> know, is anytime he's on the mic, i sit up and listen, and don't really give a
> fuck if he analyzes the faulty capitalistic structure of uncle scam or not.
He just reminds me too much of people I know who are like, "Hey watch me be
different. Isn't this creative?"... Being different for the sake of being
different is about as uncreative as you can get.
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
KSG <kga...@cs.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> > I don't think you can judge Keith by the same standards as you do other
> > people. I'm not sure why. I think there's a few people like this, Biz Markie
> > is another.
>
> What about Puff Daddy and Vanilla Ice?
what about them?
>
> > Was he saying anything on Dr
> > Octagon? Shit I don't know.
>
> This reminds me of a friend of mine who as an undergrad cut up lines from nursery
> rhymes, put them in a hat and randomnly took them out and then wrote whatever line
> she pulled out. She presented this as her final project in some class. Apparently
> everone was just workin' to analyze it and found some remarkably deep stuff about
> it.
yeah, i can imagine that, I was an english major
> > But like you admit, he's got charisma, he's got
> > mad mic presence, which counts for a lot.
>
> But so does Oprah Winfrey,
well i haven't heard her rhyme, but actually i doubt she has much presence on
the mic
> > i'm taking a somewhat undefendable position here i guess. i just think keith
> > has to be looked at on his own terms, not compared w/ anyone else or by anyone
> > else's standards. Don't listen to him if you're in a goodie mob mood. all i
> > know, is anytime he's on the mic, i sit up and listen, and don't really give a
> > fuck if he analyzes the faulty capitalistic structure of uncle scam or not.
>
> He just reminds me too much of people I know who are like, "Hey watch me be
> different. Isn't this creative?"... Being different for the sake of being
> different is about as uncreative as you can get.
> KSG
Hey you know, i admitted i can't really defend my position by the usual
markers. If you want to dis him, i ain't gonna dis you or make you prove that
you're right, I admit by certain standards you are. All i can say is in his
own way, he is dope. i always enjoy listening to him, the rhythm of his
voice, the sounds of the words, his intonation, is all dope even if the
actual lyrics not not great or even nonsensical. i'm not coming on here
calling him the best lyricist around, or like the wu-riders saying it's just
slang you can't even catch yet. in his own way he is good, that is really
the only way i can explain it. if you don't agree, that's fine. I've read
your posts enough to know you have good taste in hip-hop.
however i must take exception to the comparisons to fluffy and vanila ice and
mc oprah. surely you don't really put him in their class, after all the man
is responsible for at least one groundbreaking work, which none of them could
do whether they tried or not.
also, while i agree w/ your comments about "being different just to be
different," i honestly don't think that applies here. i do think he is a
little off in the domepiece. havbe you ever read an interview w/ keith?
nuts. And he was actually in bellevue mental ward. He's not completely of
this world.
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> also, while i agree w/ your comments about "being different just to be
> different," i honestly don't think that applies here. i do think he is a
> little off in the domepiece. havbe you ever read an interview w/ keith?
> nuts. And he was actually in bellevue mental ward. He's not completely of
> this world.
>
> ...nesta...
I couldn't have put it better myself. When Keith says some nuts shit I
don't necessarily think of it as "different to be different" - he IS
different. He's like a hip-hop Forrest Gump except very deeply twisted.
You know what scares me though? How often the shit he says makes sense!
Peace, Flash
--
"Look out the window golly the sky is electric blue..." --> Andre B.
"Sony or Aiwa, black or white, I fit in all stereotypes" --> Wordsworth
Steve 'Flash' Juon --> contact dj.f...@pobox.com for e-mail
Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive --> http://www.OHHLA.com/index.htm
Suite 101's Hip-Hop --> http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/116
Kenneth Hyde
> has to be looked at on his own terms, not compared w/ anyone else or
by anyone
> else's standards. Don't listen to him if you're in a goodie mob mood. all i
> know, is anytime he's on the mic, i sit up and listen, and don't
really give a
> fuck if he analyzes the faulty capitalistic structure of uncle scam or not.
<<He just reminds me too much of people I know who are like, "Hey watch me be
different. Isn't this creative?"... Being different for the sake of being
different is about as uncreative as you can get.>>
But is that what these people are saying or is it just "Look at me!! I'm
me!! It's fun being me." That's what I see. I think many (who don't
understand) are quick to assume people are so different just because
they want to be, when the fact is they're just being themselves. I have
first-hand experience.
Peace
Mr. Hyde
but don't mind me, I'm just another Kool Keith jocker....
BSE
>
> Wise Rebel <wise...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19981112220305...@ngol02.aol.com>...
> >
> > "Andre' Mallette" writes:
> >
> > >Nah, then I'd have to stop listening to Latyrx and Kool Keith too.
> >
>
> album...
>
> "It's time to drop GOOSES!"
but you know he could do it. Just change race for a bit between gerbil
smacking sessions, then changed back for the next AKA.
Hes got mroe AKA's than a bootleg firearms salesman.
Hes the man,he is though, hes in my oppinion the greatest character in
hip hop. Is the fucking man, no one else can do so many stupid things,
have absolutely no knowledge of current hip hop, and still make some of
the freshest and dopest hip hop.
nutter.
"These assholes is dirt specks on my rug" that is one of the dopest
lines of the year adn the man has been yapping for like 15 years on
wax!!!! nutter.
----BSE----------------------------------------
"I didn't wanna have a thought i couldnt raise,
nurture and care for, be there for" - The 4th Bee Gee/The 2nd Cartman
kga...@cs.ucsd.edu
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> In article <3651D0FC...@cs.ucsd.edu>,
> KSG <kga...@cs.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> > > I don't think you can judge Keith by the same standards as you do other
> > > people. I'm not sure why. I think there's a few people like this, Biz
Markie
> > > is another.
> >
> > What about Puff Daddy and Vanilla Ice?
>
> what about them?
See below.
>
> yeah, i can imagine that, I was an english major
>
> > > But like you admit, he's got charisma, he's got
> > > mad mic presence, which counts for a lot.
> >
> > But so does Oprah Winfrey,
>
> well i haven't heard her rhyme, but actually i doubt she has much presence on
> the mic
She has much presence on the mic. Enough to keep millions captivated day
after day after day. Her rhyming skills need work though.
> Hey you know, i admitted i can't really defend my position by the usual
> markers. If you want to dis him, i ain't gonna dis you or make you prove that
> you're right, I admit by certain standards you are. All i can say is in his
> own way, he is dope. i always enjoy listening to him, the rhythm of his
> voice, the sounds of the words, his intonation, is all dope even if the
> actual lyrics not not great or even nonsensical. i'm not coming on here
> calling him the best lyricist around, or like the wu-riders saying it's just
> slang you can't even catch yet. in his own way he is good, that is really
> the only way i can explain it. if you don't agree, that's fine. I've read
> your posts enough to know you have good taste in hip-hop.
>
> however i must take exception to the comparisons to fluffy and vanila ice and
> mc oprah. surely you don't really put him in their class, after all the man
> is responsible for at least one groundbreaking work, which none of them could
> do whether they tried or not.
I do admit this (I assume you mean "Critical Beatdown"?), but what of him
since then? The reason I make the comparison is because I think many people
would make the exact same argument about Mase. They would argue that you
have to be in a goofy retarded mood to feel him. I think this statement you
are fine with. I'm not saying anything all that interesting really. BUT the
stronger point is that if I say I like Mase's album I'm looked down upon in
the RMHH realm, but if I like Doc Oc... well join the club. The reasons we
like the music are similar, but one is person is deemed as having
"sophisticated" tastes and the other is into bubblegum pop.
This is not an attempt to dis your taste at all... we all have artists we like
for no reason other than we just like'em. Heck I like Spice Girls cause they
seem like on of the few groups that understands pop music.
The reasons you've given for liking Kool Keith I've heard echoed in the past
(or similarly). I guess the point of my post (as well as the theme of my
more recent ones) is the hypocricy of the college underground hip hop scene.
> also, while i agree w/ your comments about "being different just to be
> different," i honestly don't think that applies here. i do think he is a
> little off in the domepiece. havbe you ever read an interview w/ keith?
> nuts. And he was actually in bellevue mental ward. He's not completely of
> this world.
Yeah, he probably actually is different, but it doesn't come off that way (at
least not to me). Maybe I'm just too much of a pessimist.
--
KSG
The UltraJam Show SRTV
SRTV: http://scw.ucsd.edu/
Personal: http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/~kgatlin/
Sean Flynn
<bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> I'll pose the same question Alex posed to start this thread. What about
>him makes him so dope? Production is nice, but then give credit to the
>producer. Do other folks actually feel those lyrics? I don't get it.
For me, the only way I can ever see anyone get into Kool Keith is if
you listen to Critical Beatdown.
The first bit of Ultramag I ever heard (besides the "Travelling..."
video...which I thought was dope) was their "Four Horseman" album.
After the first 3 or 4 listens...I was like "What the fuck is this?".
Am I missing something?
Seriously, that shit went over my head...but I did enjoy the beat to
"Raise It Up".
Shortly after this, I heard about their Critical Beatdown LP. I spent
over a year trying to find someone who could dub this thing for
me...and then 2 days after receiving the tape in the mail...it got
re-issued on Vinyl, Cassette, and CD...go figure (remember, before
this got re-issued, I think it was long deleted and IMPOSSIBLE to get
a hold of in any format - bootleg, vinyl, cassette...and even dub).
Anyways, that shit was really nice, really really nice. I don't know
what it is about that album that makes it so dope, but damn...I was
blown away by it. Ced Gee hooked up some nice beats for that one...and
both of them (Ced & KK) were incredible on the mic...yes, I actually
thought Ced Gee was a pretty hype MC back in his hey-day.
But what really stuck in my mind is how Kool Keith was so weird yet so
dope. Ced's slammin' production really helped to set off his vocals in
a fashion that made Ultramag's music pretty accessible to most of the
hip-hop community...but still set Kool Keith apart from EVERY other MC
out there.
Pretty much anyone, anywhere will consider Critical Beatdown to be at
least a very dope LP...
NOTE: You may want to check out my Unoffical Ultramagnetic MC's
Website (in the link from my .sig) to listen to their golden early
material.
Anyways, after about a years worth of jockin this LP, it really put
into perspective their other work. It actually made me enjoy "Four
Horseman" a whole lot more...I was able to detect the dopeness behind
this strange sounding music.
It kinda rekindles those precious Critical Beatdown days...
Even though I was majorly hyped for shit like Dr Octogon, Cenobites,
and Sex Style (and there were flashes of Critical Beatdown in those
releases), I was also getting annoyed with the increasing "weirdness"
in the production of those records. IMO, this has lead to Kool Keith's
recent "downfall", the fact that the music that accompanies his rhymes
just doesn't set him off like Ced's beats on Critical Beatdown. In
most cases, the music is just as wierd & fucked up as Keith's lyrics
themselves (Octogon, Big Willie Smith, etc...)
Even though I consider myself a pretty big fan of Kool Keith, the only
track I can really check for on Dr Octogon these days is "Bear
Witness"...
I dunno...I think Critical Beatdown had a profound effect on a lot of
people, including myself. Although I usually shun experimental shit
like Dr Octogon, I make it a point to check out nearly everything KK
puts out...hoping for a return to the Critical Beatdown days. I know
it's a pretty dumb way of thinking...but I'm sure everyone is a sucker
for some person/group's music, no matter how hard they fall.
To summarize:
For those who pretty much hate everything Kool Keith has done on the
solo tip, I totally understand. From an objective view point, he's
done very little that's totally spectacular in the past 4 years. A
good chunk of it is downright terrible come to think of it.
But the wierd thing about Kool Keith is that just when you think he's
totally wack & fallen off, he comes back from the dead and hits you
with a bit of that good 'ole Critical Beatdown magic...and you remain
his #1 fan!
Sean.
PS - Kool Keith stuff that's pretty decent and has more than its share
of moments of greatness:
Object Unknown (Funky Redneck Mix) - Kool Keith & Spooky
Space Cadillac - Kool Keith & Menelik
Outtatowniggaz - Kool Keith & Tim Dog
Plastic World - Kool Keith
Return Of The B-Girl - Kool Keith & T-Love
Mommy - Kool Keith (Cenobites)
Wearin' Makeup - Kool Keith (Big Willie Smith)
Jakob Hellberg
> If it gets all these props(not that many in the big scheme of things)
> because El P is white, then why arent Cage, Siah, Necro, Non Phixion,
> Arsonists and all the other white rappers getting those props?
>
>
I saw arsonists live recently and believe me, none of the members were
white.
Jakob Hellberg
>
> > Kool Keith? He's done maybe one track I've liked (since Ultramag that is).
> > In some respects he's the one that showed me that different does not equal
> > good (with respect to hip hop).
>
> Word. The production on the Doc Oc joint was nice, but lyrically it
> wasn't close to a Mase single. Technically Keith can do some nice things,
> but he ain't saying shit. He's got a compelling personality on the mic,
> the same kind of charisma that I think Mos Def has, but not the skills. I
> would so much rather listen to Big Gip's messed up flow and deap words
> than Keith's ramblings.
>
> him makes him so dope? Production is nice, but then give credit to the
> producer. Do other folks actually feel those lyrics? I don't get it.
>
> Live from Seattle
>
> "This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
>
> "A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
> rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
Have you heard the "critical beatdown" lp or the "Poppa large" eastcoast
12" remix?? That's some of the greatest Hip-Hop ever made IMO, up to par
with Rakim, KRS etc. He's really funny too...
T. Tauri
> This reminds me of a friend of mine who as an
> undergrad cut up lines from nursery rhymes, put
> them in a hat and randomnly took them out and then
> wrote whatever line she pulled out. She presented
> this as her final project in some class.
> Apparently everone was just workin' to analyze it
> and found some remarkably deep stuff about
> it.
>
> This correlates to another of my philosophies (I
> hope you guys are takin' notes!)... obfuscation is
> no better than randomness. I would have been just
> as happy listening to white noise as I would have
> been hearing the lyrics from Doc Oc.
Is anyone really trying to call Keith Mr. Profound though? How is it
obfuscatory? Compared to your usual superscientifical rap, Doc Oc is
simply not attempting to be all that deep.
Peece,
T. Tauri
KSG
"T. Tauri" wrote:
Well that is kinda the point of the story.... if Doc Oc is trying to be
deep, the obsfuscated nature of it makes it incomprehensible... it's a
mess. I can make no more sense of it than I could white noise. But
given that he's not attempting to be deep, his non-sensical lyrics
aren't much different (to me at least) than pulling lines out of a hat.
So here is a question: Would Doc Oc be a worse album if he pulled his
lyrics out of a hat? I conjecture no. (Of course I am biased in that I
already don't like the album).
Now as wtadams said, taking Doc Oc on his own terms is fine. But why is
this work so well respected in the college hip hop community?
--
One Luv,
KSG
the truth speaker
the song is dedicated to dissin him and he blows up the spot. By the
way he's white and from my home town portland maine, i got drunk with
him before he moved to Cali, hes fuckin ill as hell or as he would say;
Hella-dope!
David Frank
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.A41.3.95b.981117...@homer30.u.washington.edu> , "B.
> David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > > Kool Keith? He's done maybe one track I've liked (since Ultramag that is).
> > > In some respects he's the one that showed me that different does not equal
> > > good (with respect to hip hop).
> >
> > Word. The production on the Doc Oc joint was nice, but lyrically it
> > wasn't close to a Mase single. Technically Keith can do some nice things,
> > but he ain't saying shit. He's got a compelling personality on the mic,
> > the same kind of charisma that I think Mos Def has, but not the skills. I
> > would so much rather listen to Big Gip's messed up flow and deap words
> > than Keith's ramblings.
> >
> > I'll pose the same question Alex posed to start this thread. What about
> > him makes him so dope? Production is nice, but then give credit to the
> > producer. Do other folks actually feel those lyrics? I don't get it.
> >
> > B. David Harrison
>
> I don't think you can judge Keith by the same standards as you do other
> people. I'm not sure why. I think there's a few people like this, Biz Markie
> is another. If you wanna look at their shit hella technically, well, they
> may come up short in some ways. But I see them as just their own beings, you
> have to take them with a grain of salt. Was he saying anything on Dr
> Octagon? Shit I don't know. But like you admit, he's got charisma, he's got
> mad mic presence, which counts for a lot. And which is mase's major flaw,
> worse than his lyrics. And Mase could not write the stuff on doc oc, he's not
> smart enough to make that little sense. Once in a while Keith can still rip
> in a straight forward manner too. "Plastic World," much as i hate to admit
> it, is ridiculously on point.
>
> i'm taking a somewhat undefendable position here i guess. i just think keith
> has to be looked at on his own terms, not compared w/ anyone else or by anyone
> else's standards. Don't listen to him if you're in a goodie mob mood. all i
> know, is anytime he's on the mic, i sit up and listen, and don't really give a
> fuck if he analyzes the faulty capitalistic structure of uncle scam or not.
>
> ...nesta...
>
yeah, you can't. keith can afford to take chances and not give a fuck. he's already
a hip hop legend, already proven himself and has a greater margin for error (or
margin for experimentation I guess) than other heads as a result. classic hip hop
material is a been-there-done-that thing for him.
David Frank
Ralph Barbagallo
today. He makes total sense. Listen closely. The message isn't deep or
anything, but his rhymes are clever and well put together. Not just a
string of polysyllabic gibberish over a piano loop. Ok, well a few of them
are like that. :) But, the bottom line is Kool Keith innovated and pretty
much created the whole abstract/scientific style that EVERYONE is ripping
off these days.
When I first got Sex Style, I was a little disappointed. The beats were
rather mediocre, and it didn't have the wacky variety of Octagon. But upon
closer inspection that is the funniest damn album I've heard in years. It's
a classic, in my opinion. Listen closely.
The best single, Get Off My Elevator, was not included on the album and
is instead a b-side to the Plastic World single (unless it was on the full
length LP). Seek it out.
Some of the weaker stuff he's done lately is that single on DJ Spooky's
album, and some of his Sir Menelik team-ups have been less than stellar.
But his new stuff like Masters of Illusion is still walks all over his
biters, despite not being up to snuff with his best solo material.
I just wish he'd do another full-length instead of these singles here
and there.
Every full-length he's done since Ultramag's breakup is worth buying.
Octagon, Sex Style, Cenobites, Ultra, etc. (Still need Big Willie Smith,
anyone know where I can get it?) Keith does a good job at pairing himself
up with stylistically unique MCs on all of his albums.
Most so-called underground groups today just completely rip-off his
style and they are immediately considered breakthrough. Kool Keith single
handedly transformed rap in the latter half of the '90s and into the next
millenium, but nobody knows who he is.
Although I have to admit, he's sort of fallen in a rut, subject-wise, on
his latest material. But he does braggadocio like nobody else, so I don't
mind that much.
--
Ralph A. Barbagallo III --- fl...@concentric.net
--- http://www.concentric.net/~flarb --
KSG
David Frank wrote:
> yeah, you can't. keith can afford to take chances and not give a fuck. he's already
> a hip hop legend, already proven himself and has a greater margin for error (or
> margin for experimentation I guess) than other heads as a result. classic hip hop
> material is a been-there-done-that thing for him.
I heard this year Jordan is gonna start bouncing the ball with his forehead. Just
gotta wait for this lockout to end.
Sean Flynn
>Now as wtadams said, taking Doc Oc on his own terms is fine. But why is
>this work so well respected in the college hip hop community?
2 Reasons:
1) It appeals to the trip-hop/electronica crowd (who often know
nothing about Ultramag). They like the "trippy" music &
production...and it sounds really fucked up and wierd (like a lot of
that electronica bullshit). I guess it makes people feel "cool" to
tell their friends "I'm listening to Dr. Octogon!"...and then get
responses like "Whoa, trippy name dude!". If you look at how well
respected DJ Shadow's fusion of electronica & hip-hop is around
college hip-hop circles...it's only natural that this other
electronica/hip-hop fusion album is well-respected. Why these two
works are highly regarded and groups like CMW or Goodie Mob are
shunned is more of a cultural phenomenon (tribalism?), IMO.
2) Mega-Ultra fans like myself will tend to big-up anything Kool Keith
does...hoping for a return to the Critical Beatdown days. There are
several 30-60 second smatterings of dopeness on Doc Oc...that made it
all worth it to me (I explain this phenomenon in more detail in
another recent post). There is a threshold of dopeness that Kool
Keith's work has to exceed to gain respect in my books...but being the
monster fan that I am...this threshold is set very low.
Sean.
Sean Flynn
wrote:
> Kool Keith's solo stuff is better than %99 of anything that's coming out
>today.
Here's a *partial* list of recent stuff that I've enjoyed a hell of a
lot more than shit like Object Unknown, Sex Style, and even the Big
Willie Smith EP:
- J-Live 12"s
- T Love EP & 12"
- Mos Def LP & 12"s
- Dilated Peoples 12"s
- Associates 12"
- Natural Elements 12"s
- Medina Green 12"
- Siah & Yeshua EP
- Gang Starr LP & 12"s
- Co Flow Vital Nerve 12"
- Lauren Hill Lost Ones 12"
- Beastie Boys Body Movin 12"
- Heiro You Never Knew 12"
I even enjoyed ATCQ's "The Love Movement" more than "Sex Style".
>He makes total sense. Listen closely. The message isn't deep or
>anything, but his rhymes are clever and well put together. Not just a
>string of polysyllabic gibberish over a piano loop. Ok, well a few of them
>are like that. :)
He's been very inconsistent IMO. Sometimes he's totally on point,
other times he's way off the mark.
>But, the bottom line is Kool Keith innovated and pretty
>much created the whole abstract/scientific style that EVERYONE is ripping
>off these days.
I dunno...Organized Konfusion has been spittin some crazy shit since
the early '90s. I think those dudes really got people onto that whole
polysyllabic "big words" thing.
But I would tend to agree that Ultramag were really the only ones
talking crazy shit back in the mid to late 80's.
> When I first got Sex Style, I was a little disappointed. The beats were
>rather mediocre, and it didn't have the wacky variety of Octagon. But upon
>closer inspection that is the funniest damn album I've heard in years. It's
>a classic, in my opinion. Listen closely.
The beats are pathetic...and make this album boarderline unlistenable.
Honestly, I gain very little pleasure from that LP.
> The best single, Get Off My Elevator, was not included on the album and
>is instead a b-side to the Plastic World single (unless it was on the full
>length LP). Seek it out.
That's not a bad 12"...considering how completely wack a good chunck
of that album is.
> Some of the weaker stuff he's done lately is that single on DJ Spooky's
>album, and some of his Sir Menelik team-ups have been less than stellar.
>But his new stuff like Masters of Illusion is still walks all over his
>biters, despite not being up to snuff with his best solo material.
>
> I just wish he'd do another full-length instead of these singles here
>and there.
Actually, I think singles are better...unless he hooks up with some
dope-ass producers, I couldn't take a complete album of him at all.
>Every full-length he's done since Ultramag's breakup is worth buying.
>Octagon, Sex Style, Cenobites, Ultra, etc. (Still need Big Willie Smith,
>anyone know where I can get it?) Keith does a good job at pairing himself
>up with stylistically unique MCs on all of his albums.
Actually, Cenobites is the only album that's pretty listenable and
accessible. Everything else is strictly for Ultramag completists IMO.
I don't know why everyone sweats Big Willie Smith so much...that shit
is pretty awful. I guess there's a reason why they only pressed up 500
copies of that shit.
Wearin Makeup is alright...but I wouldn't pay the $200.00 used market
price for the original pressing of this EP. BTW, I do recall a UK
bootleg of this floating around (this is how I got it) for the past
few months...check www.sandbox.pair.com for it.
> Most so-called underground groups today just completely rip-off his
>style and they are immediately considered breakthrough. Kool Keith single
>handedly transformed rap in the latter half of the '90s and into the next
>millenium, but nobody knows who he is.
A lot of people know who Kool Keith is. A lot of people know about Doc
Octogon. Trust me...his collaborations with DJ Spooky and the 1033
techno and drum&bass remixes of Doc Octogon material have pushed his
popularity & exposure through the roof.
> Although I have to admit, he's sort of fallen in a rut, subject-wise, on
>his latest material. But he does braggadocio like nobody else, so I don't
>mind that much.
Sean.
Kenneth Hyde
anything, but his rhymes are clever and well put together. Not just a
string of polysyllabic gibberish over a piano loop. Ok, well a few of them
much created the whole abstract/scientific style that EVERYONE is ripping
off these days.>>
Well said...
Mr. Hyde