Neither 2Pac or Biggie belong on a top 25 MC's of all-time list.

[MF]

Their combined record output ranged from average to above average. They
both had good flow and good voices, but 2 of the best ever?

I will go on record as saying that they are a product of their deaths.

Discuss.

MF

[Sumran]

> Discuss.

2Pac yeah no doubt he isn't in the top 25 but Biggie is one of the best
imo. I mentioned this on my blog just recently. I really think he was
one of the best, the way he killed that Bone Thugs flow, the whole Ready
to Die joint dope, some of the storytelling on Life After Death was some
of the best I've heard.

For me Biggie is up there but Pac is way off.

--

"Life is a struggle, life is beautiful, life is a beautiful struggle"
Mos Def

--

Contributer to www.rmhh.com

[mochaspresso]

I think you're wrong about Pac. He's releasing music from the grave
that people today are connecting with on some level.

-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->

Mochaspresso

[MF]

mochaspresso wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2005 14:13:25 -0800, "MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Their combined record output ranged from average to above average.
They
> >both had good flow and good voices, but 2 of the best ever?
> >
> >I will go on record as saying that they are a product of their
deaths.
> >
> >Discuss.
> >
> >MF
>
> I think you're wrong about Pac. He's releasing music from the grave
> that people today are connecting with on some level.

Yeah but for what reason?

And does connection alone put him near the top? Nope. If that was the
case, you could make the same argument for any mega-popular act out
there.

MF

[mochaspresso]

On 12 Mar 2005 14:47:46 -0800, "MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Yeah but for what reason?
>
>And does connection alone put him near the top? Nope. If that was the
>case, you could make the same argument for any mega-popular act out
>there.

....many of the mega-popular acts come and go, though. Very few
manage to hold on for long periods of time. Pac is managing to hold
on even though he's dead. I don't think he's a product of his death
in the sense that people are building him up more than he deserves
because he's dead. I think people are listening to him out of
curiosity since he died and are discovering/realizing how talented he
was.

[bozak]

"mochaspresso" <mochas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7mr631ht7efgkmk00...@4ax.com...

> On 12 Mar 2005 14:13:25 -0800, "MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Their combined record output ranged from average to above average. They
>>both had good flow and good voices, but 2 of the best ever?
>>
>>I will go on record as saying that they are a product of their deaths.
>>
>>Discuss.
>>
>>MF
>
> I think you're wrong about Pac. He's releasing music from the grave
> that people today are connecting with on some level.

i wouldnt put him in my top 5 but he damn sure would be in my top 25...

[rikki o]

"mochaspresso" <mochas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

"MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>>
>>Yeah but for what reason?
>>
>>And does connection alone put him near the top? Nope. If that was the
>>case, you could make the same argument for any mega-popular act out
>>there.
>
> ....many of the mega-popular acts come and go, though. Very few
> manage to hold on for long periods of time. Pac is managing to hold
> on even though he's dead. I don't think he's a product of his death
> in the sense that people are building him up more than he deserves
> because he's dead. I think people are listening to him out of
> curiosity since he died and are discovering/realizing how talented he
> was.

i like natty's theory. pac and big dying at their prime (music wise or just
popularity)... what legends are made of.

[Super J]

he's dead. I don't think he's a product of his death
> > in the sense that people are building him up more than he deserves
> > because he's dead. I think people are listening to him out of
> > curiosity since he died and are discovering/realizing how talented he
> > was.
>
> i like natty's theory. pac and big dying at their prime (music wise or
just
> popularity)... what legends are made of.
>
>

I think this hits the nail on the head. The same applies in other areas of
music. Artists that pass away just as they become popular will always be
revered, regardless of their talent (and some are very talented, but
certainly not all of them).

Super J

[Kwaj]

honestly, is there a female head who doesn't like Pac?

"mochaspresso" <mochas...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:n2t631tj2bqaqpaak...@4ax.com...

[Kwaj]

Genius is certified when those who come after try to replicate you.

In that sense,

Baggie's style, voice, charisma, story-telling, flow, attitude and album
construction have been replicated by just about everyone whose came after
him. The best two rappers alive (Nas and Jay-Z) have affirmed his status as
the best ever.

Honestly, Biggie should be in everyone's top 5 or at least their top 10,
regardless of if you like him as a person.

Tupac on the other hand...is a bit hit and miss. He was marketters dream but
honestly I don't think his flow was all it was hyped up to be.

"MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110665605....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

[StephenJ]

if they aren't in the top 10, who is?

Please don't be mentioning nobodies that no-one outside of smallish cliques
ever heard of. Keep the discussion at the proper level...

--
I do not think the United States would come to an end if
we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do
think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make
that declaration as to the laws of the several States.

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, on the SCOTUS

"MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110665605....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

[StephenJ]

> Tupac on the other hand...is a bit hit and miss. He was marketters dream
but
> honestly I don't think his flow was all it was hyped up to be.

tupac's flow, whatever its technical merits or demerits, had "feel" to it.
people feel tupac, he touches them like no one else has...

[©N¥ikuli, Williåm©]

They made good _songs_.

Music is one area in which the sum can be greater than it's parts taken
individually.

That is why G-Unit sell records.

No, Biggie or 'Pac in the top 25? I disagree.

Unlike your run-of the mill pop acts, they had longevity too, so you can't
compare them to a Britney Spears.

Plus, just being "poppy" in of itself shouldn't be a strike against you.

--
Majiin - version舶俺

Proven nobodies should not be allowed to make statements about proven
somebodies. I don't listen to nobodies. Guys obviously
are going to talk, but I only listen to somebodies." Shaquille O'Neal

[©N¥ikuli, Williåm©]

StephenJ wrote:
> if they aren't in the top 10, who is?
>
> Please don't be mentioning nobodies that no-one outside of smallish
> cliques ever heard of. Keep the discussion at the proper level...

IAWTP.

[mattmatical]

I realize the influence their deaths had on my judgement,
but as time passes, I don't really care whether they're dead
or not, their body of work makes them both top 25 all-time
greats. 2Pac easily. BIG sometimes struggles to make my
top 25, depending on how I look at his albums.

I mean top 25 - how many are even eligible? There
ain't that many.

Matt

[Sumran]

mattmatical wrote:

> I mean top 25 - how many are even eligible? There
> ain't that many.

I thought we were talking top f in terms of mc'ing skills. If its top
25 artists then hell yeah Pac is up there and so is Big.

Purely as an Mc BIG is in the top 10.

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> if they aren't in the top 10, who is?
>
> Please don't be mentioning nobodies that no-one outside of smallish
cliques
> ever heard of. Keep the discussion at the proper level...

MC's I'd place above both of them, just off the top of my mind, keeping
your criteria in mind-

Chuck D
Rakim
Kool G Rap
KRS One
Nas
Jay-Z
Pharoah Monche
Scarface
Genius
Lord Finesse
Ice Cube
Slick Rick
Redman
Kane
A to the L
Ras Kass
Common
LL Cool J
Masta Ace

Mind you, these are in no order.

MF

[MF]

Right.

25 may be stretching it. But I think 15 or 20 is more like it.

MF

[StephenJ]

IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't fit the
criteria.

Beyond that, i can't see taking any of them over biggie. yeah, chuck d has
an amazing/disctinctive "voice" as do peak LL, cube, jay-z, and nas, but
biggie was more versatile in his flows than all of them.

But yeah, they all beat tupac, technically speaking.

[A to the L]

On 13 Mar 2005 05:10:44 -0800, "MF" <magf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A to the L

you damn skippy...

PEACH

The best rapper alive since the best rapper retired

[TJ Xenos]

StephenJ wrote:
> IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't
fit the
> criteria.
>
> Beyond that, i can't see taking any of them over biggie. yeah, chuck
d has
> an amazing/disctinctive "voice" as do peak LL, cube, jay-z, and nas,
but
> biggie was more versatile in his flows than all of them.
>
> But yeah, they all beat tupac, technically speaking.
>
>

Pharoahe's sole solo album went gold. The genius has sold like 3
million solo records and is a main member of wu tang clan who've sold
like 20 million. I dont see how they dont fit the criteria.

[StephenJ]

> > Beyond that, i can't see taking any of them over biggie. yeah, chuck
> d has
> > an amazing/disctinctive "voice" as do peak LL, cube, jay-z, and nas,
> but
> > biggie was more versatile in his flows than all of them.
> >
> > But yeah, they all beat tupac, technically speaking.
> >
> >
>
>
> Pharoahe's sole solo album went gold. The genius has sold like 3
> million solo records and is a main member of wu tang clan who've sold
> like 20 million. I dont see how they dont fit the criteria.

by "genius" does he mean "gza"? If so, i concede he fits the criteria.

[---Pete---]

"StephenJ" wrote in message

> tupac's flow, whatever its technical merits or demerits, had "feel" to it.

but when you've heard the same flow on 4445 tracks (4400 released post his
death), you seriously can't have him as one of the greatest emcees. Tupac
was a great marketing tool, great image, some good beats but very limited
lyrical and emceeing skill. There's no doubting he *should* be in a top 25
list to me - influence and status alone buys him that right but where you
place 2Pac in your top 25 emcees has to take the fact that he wasn't a
particularly good rapper into consideration. Will Smith is a more skilled
rapper than 2Pac was.
--
This was an insight into the mind of ---Pete---
"Read and profit from the knowledge"

[bse]

In article <3oXYd.9643$N15.2892@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

WTF???? Genius is a member of the WU aka the biggest Hiphop group of the
90s! Finesse was one of the biggest rappers around when he first came
out. He was big news.

> Beyond that, i can't see taking any of them over biggie. yeah, chuck d has
> an amazing/disctinctive "voice" as do peak LL, cube, jay-z, and nas, but
> biggie was more versatile in his flows than all of them.

Erm no. I love Biggie, he'd make my top ten but he didn't have more
versatile flows than Nas or Cube at thier peak.

bse

--
To reply by email, remove "YOURHANDSFROMYOURLAP".

http://www.abitnice.com/canibringmygat/ - mp3 blog
http://www.abitnice.com - fully operational def starr

[A to the L]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:38:29 GMT, "---Pete---"
<raas...@bumbaclaat.com> wrote:

>"StephenJ" wrote in message
>> tupac's flow, whatever its technical merits or demerits, had "feel" to it.
>
>but when you've heard the same flow on 4445 tracks (4400 released post his
>death), you seriously can't have him as one of the greatest emcees. Tupac
>was a great marketing tool, great image, some good beats but very limited
>lyrical and emceeing skill. There's no doubting he *should* be in a top 25
>list to me - influence and status alone buys him that right but where you
>place 2Pac in your top 25 emcees has to take the fact that he wasn't a
>particularly good rapper into consideration. Will Smith is a more skilled
>rapper than 2Pac was.

but Will Smith doesn't ride on his en-a-mees

PEACH

A to the L (or sip on hen-a-see)

[A to the L]

and A to the L?

[StephenJ]

> > tupac's flow, whatever its technical merits or demerits, had "feel" to
it.
>
> but when you've heard the same flow on 4445 tracks (4400 released post his
> death), you seriously can't have him as one of the greatest emcees. Tupac
> was a great marketing tool, great image, some good beats but very limited
> lyrical and emceeing skill. There's no doubting he *should* be in a top 25
> list to me - influence and status alone buys him that right but where you
> place 2Pac in your top 25 emcees has to take the fact that he wasn't a
> particularly good rapper into consideration. Will Smith is a more skilled
> rapper than 2Pac was.

I guess it depends on whether we define "MC" strictly in terms of technical
ability and lyrical "cleverness". If so, i agree that tupac wouldn't make
the top 25. But IMO that is way too narrow a view. An "MC" is a Master of
Ceremonies. His job is to entertain us and move us, not just dazzle us with
technical proficiency.

Since Tupac is clearly one of the, and arguably *the*, most entertaining and
moving MC's ever, i can't abide any definition of that term that doesn't put
him in the elite category....

[StephenJ]

> > IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't fit
the
> > criteria.
>
> WTF???? Genius is a member of the WU aka the biggest Hiphop group of the
> 90s!

I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse at one
point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most of whom you
and i never heard of...

[Wasteland Drifter]

StephenJ wrote:
>>
>> I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so
>> difuse at one point that there were about 100 niggas claiming
>> membership, most of whom you and i never heard of...

You smoke crack...

[noixe!]

> Pharoahe's sole solo album went gold. The genius has sold like 3
> million solo records and is a main member of wu tang clan who've sold
> like 20 million. I dont see how they dont fit the criteria.
>

internal affairs went gold!?

damn!

[---Pete---]

"StephenJ" wrote in message

> I guess it depends on whether we define "MC" strictly in terms of
> technical
> ability and lyrical "cleverness". If so, i agree that tupac wouldn't make
> the top 25. But IMO that is way too narrow a view. An "MC" is a Master of
> Ceremonies. His job is to entertain us and move us, not just dazzle us
> with
> technical proficiency.

I judge emcees by their 'total packages' (no homo) which include: technical
skill, image, entertainment value, stage presence, versatility, choice of
beats....

2Pac simply isn't a total package emcee for me - he lacks too much.

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't
fit the
> criteria.

Woah woah woah. Enhance your calm.

GZA doesn't fit the criteria? The best lyricist in the Wu?
Pharoah Monche doesn't fit the criteria? The man who arguably
influenced the 'underground' with his style moreso than anyone else?
The man who went gold with Rawkus?
Lord Finesse doesn't fit the criteria? The best lyricist in DITC?
Ras Kass doesn't? Seen as one of the best out of the west ever?

MF

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> > > IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass
don't fit
> the
> > > criteria.
> >
> > WTF???? Genius is a member of the WU aka the biggest Hiphop group
of the
> > 90s!
>
> I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse
at one
> point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most of
whom you
> and i never heard of...

Stand down.

Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
always that- B-groups.

MF

[A to the L]

see how the man didn't even want to injure his fingers typing out ALL
the reasons why I fit the criteria...

MF = the truth

[bse]

In article <%d0Zd.11003$N15.5701@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > > IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't fit
> the
> > > criteria.
> >
> > WTF???? Genius is a member of the WU aka the biggest Hiphop group of the
> > 90s!
>
> I'd say Bone was bigger,

Oh sorry yeah, I thought were talking about in this universe not another
one. My bad.

> and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse at one
> point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most of whom you
> and i never heard of...

Never assume to know what bse has heard of.

bs

[©N¥ikuli, Williåm©]

StephenJ wrote:
>>> IMO, pharoah, genius, finesse, a to the l (LOL), and ras kass don't
>>> fit the criteria.
>>
>> WTF???? Genius is a member of the WU aka the biggest Hiphop group of
>> the 90s!
>
> I'd say Bone was bigger,

No they weren't.

> and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse at one point that there were
about 100 niggas claiming membership,

Uh, no, it was never more than 10.

> most of whom you and i never heard of...

--

[StephenJ]

> > I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse
> at one
> > point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most of
> whom you
> > and i never heard of...
>
> Stand down.
>
> Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
> head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
> always that- B-groups.

RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1 million
each, ODB 1 million.

Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
million...

It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.

[StephenJ]

> Woah woah woah. Enhance your calm.
>
> GZA doesn't fit the criteria? The best lyricist in the Wu?

I already said i forgot "genius" meant gza. He qualifies as being "big"...

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> > > I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so
difuse
> > at one
> > > point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most
of
> > whom you
> > > and i never heard of...
> >
> > Stand down.
> >
> > Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get
yer
> > head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
> > always that- B-groups.
>
> RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1
million
> each, ODB 1 million.
>
> Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
> million...
>
> It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.

Your own math shows you're wrong. Just on those numbers, total Wu sales
show 13 mill vs. 13 mill. You're also conveniently forgetting Raekwon,
Ghost, Cappa, etc....and those numbers are way off regardless. Every
single Wu release has gone gold, notwithstanding the U-God releases,
and the laughable 'Best Of' Cappadonna LP. When they were rolling in
the mid to late nineties, they were untouchable. If it had the W on it,
it was selling 500k guaranteed, back when 500k was big numbers for a
hip hop album.

MF

[bse]

In article <DE4Zd.11052$N15.2822@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > > I'd say Bone was bigger, and you've gotta admit that Wu got so difuse
> > at one
> > > point that there were about 100 niggas claiming membership, most of
> > whom you
> > > and i never heard of...
> >
> > Stand down.
> >
> > Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
> > head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
> > always that- B-groups.
>
> RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1 million
> each, ODB 1 million.
>
> Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
> million...
>
> It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.

Crack crack crack crack crack crack crack.

[StephenJ]

> > RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1
> million
> > each, ODB 1 million.
> >
> > Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
> > million...
> >
> > It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.
>
> Your own math shows you're wrong. Just on those numbers, total Wu sales
> show 13 mill vs. 13 mill.

No, group-wise it's 11 mill to 7 mill for bone.

We could say the Jacksons were the biggest band of the 80s - if we credit
them with Michael Jackson's sales...

> When they were rolling in
> the mid to late nineties, they were untouchable.

Wu were the kings of nyc and put the east coast back on the map
(commercially speaking) in 93, and from 93-96 the solo records did pretty
well. But in 94 they got EC competition when nas and biggie emerged, and
then bad boy blew up and swamped them commercially. Their 97 release was
their last hurrah. It sold 2 million (4 by RIAA accounting) and it was a
tired record. Then ODB went truly crazy, RZA dowloaded himself into a
harddrive, and that was that...

> If it had the W on it,
> it was selling 500k guaranteed, back when 500k was big numbers for a
> hip hop album.

I wouldn't say that. When Wu was at their peak, the big Death Row records
were selling 3 - 5 million. Tupac was doing 2x platinum, as was biggie. Even
eazy-e had a 2x platinum record that Reverend Run said no one on the east
coast had even heard of...

Even at their peak, Wu were more "influential" than "big"...

[StephenJ]

> > > Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get
yer
> > > head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
> > > always that- B-groups.
> >
> > RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1
million
> > each, ODB 1 million.
> >
> > Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
> > million...
> >
> > It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.
>
> Crack crack crack crack crack crack crack.

Hey if i didn't have any facts to post i'd quack like a duck too...

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> > > RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza
1
> > million
> > > each, ODB 1 million.
> > >
> > > Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie
1
> > > million...
> > >
> > > It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.
> >
> > Your own math shows you're wrong. Just on those numbers, total Wu
sales
> > show 13 mill vs. 13 mill.
>
> No, group-wise it's 11 mill to 7 mill for bone.

Interestingly, it's also 7 LP's making that 11 million compared to 4
making that 7 million. It's also interesting that E. 1999 Eternal sold
over 5 million albums, completely on the strength of one mega-single.

Statistics are fun.

MF

[bse]

In article <qP5Zd.11063$N15.4074@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > > > Bone Thugs was NOWHERE near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get
> yer
> > > > head on straight. And the Wu was always 9 strong. The B-groups were
> > > > always that- B-groups.
> > >
> > > RIAA says Wu sold 7 million albums, method 3 million, rza and gza 1
> million
> > > each, ODB 1 million.
> > >
> > > Bone sold 11 million albums, jrayzie 1 million, bizzie and layzie 1
> > > million...
> > >
> > > It's close, but bone was bigger, at least as a group.
> >
> > Crack crack crack crack crack crack crack.
>
> Hey if i didn't have any facts to post i'd quack like a duck too...

Are you an old poster who has changed thier name or are you a fresh
steaming gift from god?

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> I wouldn't say that. When Wu was at their peak, the big Death Row
records
> were selling 3 - 5 million. Tupac was doing 2x platinum, as was
biggie. Even
> eazy-e had a 2x platinum record that Reverend Run said no one on the
east
> coast had even heard of...
>
> Even at their peak, Wu were more "influential" than "big"...

As the Brits would say, this is bollocks. 'Forever' sold a shitload of
albums, and was one of the most anticipated albums of 97. It had a
radio single that ran almost 6 minutes long, had no chorus, and yet
still made the rounds on MTV, etc. in video form, while going triple
platinum if I'm not mistaken. All without the benefit of a cloying
single featuring a performer who died of AIDS. Amazing ain't it? Not
only that, but subsequent albums still performed well, with 'The W'
reaching plat with almost no promotion from a near dead Loud Records
(it did over 300k in it's first week), and 'Iron Flag' doing almost the
same, albeit with slower sales overall (again, with no promotion from
Loud).

And the argument you pose comparing 2Pac/Biggie et al is moot, because
they were the ONLY ones doing numbers like that at the time. And Biggie
did it by releasing a double LP 2 weeks after he got killed, and 2Pac
did it the old fashioned way- by releasing a double LP, thus ensuring
that he doubled his actual albums sold according to the RIAA (yes, I
know the Wu did the same thing...but what's that? So did Bone Thugs!).

MF

[MF]

P.S.- Enhance your calm and stand down.

[StephenJ]

-- > > No, group-wise it's 11 mill to 7 mill for bone.

>
> Interestingly, it's also 7 LP's making that 11 million compared to 4
> making that 7 million.

4 million of that 7 million come from Wu's 1997 record. The other three
sold 1 million each.

But regardless, 11 mill to 7 mill ...

> It's also interesting that E. 1999 Eternal sold
> over 5 million albums, completely on the strength of one mega-single.

"art of war" is 4x platinum...

> Statistics are fun.

Yes, and they've buried you, apparently.

[StephenJ]

> > Even at their peak, Wu were more "influential" than "big"...
>
> As the Brits would say, this is bollocks. 'Forever' sold a shitload of
> albums, and was one of the most anticipated albums of 97.

Yes, that's their biggest seller - 2 million units sold, though the RIAA
counts it as 4 million because it was a 2-disc set.

> It had a
> radio single that ran almost 6 minutes long, had no chorus, and yet
> still made the rounds on MTV, etc. in video form, while going triple
> platinum if I'm not mistaken. All without the benefit of a cloying
> single featuring a performer who died of AIDS.

Everyone liked "tha crossroads", but i liked the whole record. It's great
start to finish...

> Amazing ain't it? Not
> only that, but subsequent albums still performed well, with 'The W'
> reaching plat with almost no promotion from a near dead Loud Records
> (it did over 300k in it's first week), and 'Iron Flag' doing almost the
> same, albeit with slower sales overall (again, with no promotion from
> Loud).

Wu were successful, but my point was that they were more influential than
big commercially.

> And the argument you pose comparing 2Pac/Biggie et al is moot, because
> they were the ONLY ones doing numbers like that at the time.

? 93 - dre sold 4 million, 93-94- snoop sold 4 million, 95-96- bone sold 4
million, 94 - warren G sold 2 million, 95 dogg pound sold 2 million, 95 -
coolio sold 2 million, we've already mentioned pac and biggie's records.

heck even old LL had a 2x platinum album in 95-96 (mr.smith).

500k was definitely not a big deal in the mid-90s. Artists like "da brat"
went platinum for crissakes...

> And Biggie
> did it by releasing a double LP 2 weeks after he got killed,

Biggie's first record was 2x platinum in 95.

> and 2Pac
> did it the old fashioned way- by releasing a double LP, thus ensuring
> that he doubled his actual albums sold according to the RIAA (yes, I
> know the Wu did the same thing...but what's that? So did Bone Thugs!).

Yes, but Bone also did 2x platinum for "creepin" in 95, and 4x platinum for
"eternal" in 95-96, both of which were single-discs so that represented real
sales.

Tupac's "me against the world" went 2x platinum in 95, and "all eyez" was 5
times platinum at the time of his death.

Wu was nothing commercially by comparison...

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> -- > > No, group-wise it's 11 mill to 7 mill for bone.
> >
> > Interestingly, it's also 7 LP's making that 11 million compared to
4
> > making that 7 million.
>
> 4 million of that 7 million come from Wu's 1997 record. The other
three
> sold 1 million each.
>
> But regardless, 11 mill to 7 mill ...
>
> > It's also interesting that E. 1999 Eternal sold
> > over 5 million albums, completely on the strength of one
mega-single.
>
> "art of war" is 4x platinum...
>
> > Statistics are fun.
>
> Yes, and they've buried you, apparently.

Rrrrrrriiiiight.

7 albums vs. 4 albums. Did you miss that point? If Bone Thugs didn't
have more cumulative sales on 7 albums vs. 4 albums, then they'd be
shittier than they already are. And thanks for pointing out that they
have a combined 9 million in sales for TWO albums, leaving a grand
total of 2 million in sales for the remaining 5. Sounds like standard
one hit wonder status. Or two. Either way, let's just say that
longevity wasn't their strong suit, and they were smart to drop those
two albums close to eachother to cash in on The Crossroads.

Now go back to the Bone Thugs NG. You're making me sound like TZArecta
up in this beeyotch.

MF

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> Yes, but Bone also did 2x platinum for "creepin" in 95, and 4x
platinum for
> "eternal" in 95-96, both of which were single-discs so that
represented real
> sales.

You should have shut up before making it obvious you were pulling
numbers out of your ass.

Originally you said 11 million sold.

Eternal did 5 million.
Creepin did 2 million according to you.
Art of War did 4 million according to you.

And there's still 4 albums to account for. Or perhaps they went wood on
those 4.

Numbers are fun!

MF

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> Everyone liked "tha crossroads", but i liked the whole record. It's
great
> start to finish...

Oh, and it's irrelevant what you liked.

Bone Thugs were a regional hit that made it big in the mainstream with
one track. That one track enabled them to hit the jackpot one more
time, after which they quickly disappeared. A fast rapping version of
MC Hammer if you will.

And all that being said, their sales per album are still lower than the
Wu. Which was the original point. Plus all the Wu members have done FAR
more in sales.

MF

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:
> ? 93 - dre sold 4 million, 93-94- snoop sold 4 million, 95-96- bone
sold 4
> million, 94 - warren G sold 2 million, 95 dogg pound sold 2 million,
95 -
> coolio sold 2 million, we've already mentioned pac and biggie's
records.

Well that proves it doesn't it. 6-10 albums in a period of 3 years went
plat, concentrated mostly on a label that was the 'it' imprint at the
time, so 500k sold in 94 was irrelevant. You're talking out of your
ass.

MF

[StephenJ]

> > Yes, and they've buried you, apparently.
>
> Rrrrrrriiiiight.

This ought to be interesting...

> 7 albums vs. 4 albums. Did you miss that point? If Bone Thugs didn't
> have more cumulative sales on 7 albums vs. 4 albums, then they'd be
> shittier than they already are.

Your point is absurd. Just because a group releases a record is no gaurantee
anyone will buy it.

But actually i've overestimated Wu and underestimated Bone. Here are the
precise numbers:

Wu:

36 chambers - platinum
forever - 4x platinum
the W - platinum
iron flag - gold

That's 6.5 million via 4 albums, with almost 2/3 of the certifications
coming from 1 record. And you call Bone a "one hit wonder"?

ROFL!

Bone:

creepin: 2x platinum
1999: 4x platinum
art of war: 4x platinum
hits collection: gold
resurrection: platinum

That's 11.5 million via 5 records. That averages to over 2 million a record,
much better than Wu.

Bone has Wu whipped, like it or not...

[StephenJ]

> StephenJ wrote:
> > Yes, but Bone also did 2x platinum for "creepin" in 95, and 4x
> platinum for
> > "eternal" in 95-96, both of which were single-discs so that
> represented real
> > sales.
>
> You should have shut up before making it obvious you were pulling
> numbers out of your ass.

wtf? Go to RIAA.com

> Originally you said 11 million sold.
>
> Eternal did 5 million.

4 million

> Creepin did 2 million according to you.

yes

> Art of War did 4 million according to you.

yes

> And there's still 4 albums to account for.

perhaps, but i only mentioned those that were certified as gold. The others
being the "hits" collection that went gold, and the "resurrection" record
that went platinum.

Hey, go to RIAA and get some facts if you don't like mine...

[StephenJ]

> StephenJ wrote:
> > Everyone liked "tha crossroads", but i liked the whole record. It's
> great
> > start to finish...

> Bone Thugs were a regional hit that made it big in the mainstream with
> one track.

Disparage it any way you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Bone was
bigger than Wu (sold more records).

> And all that being said, their sales per album are still lower than the
> Wu. Which was the original point.

No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big deal.
Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything. Total
sales tell who was bigger.

The actual point is that Bone easily sold more albums than Wu did, which
makes you look rather silly...

[StephenJ]

> StephenJ wrote:
> > ? 93 - dre sold 4 million, 93-94- snoop sold 4 million, 95-96- bone
> sold 4
> > million, 94 - warren G sold 2 million, 95 dogg pound sold 2 million,
> 95 -
> > coolio sold 2 million, we've already mentioned pac and biggie's
> records.
>
> Well that proves it doesn't it. 6-10 albums in a period of 3 years went
> plat,

that's just the ones i could remember.

500k surely wasn't any kind of big deal in the mid-90s. Not from a "big
time" perspective, anyway.

[MF]

StephenJ wrote:

> No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big
deal.
> Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything.
Total
> sales tell who was bigger.

No. Total sales tell you who sold more. It does not factor in number of
releases. It's like comparing a baseball player who gets 3000 hits, but
has a .250 average and played for 25 years, and a player who gets 3000,
with a .330 average who played for 15 years.

Bone Thugs, according to the numbers you posted, sold somewhere around
11.5 million albums on 7 releases. The Wu sold 7 on 4. Advantage Wu.
When you add in all of initial solo releases, even your retarded
criteria becomes a moot point. And yes, the solo releases should be
there, because for all intents and purposes, the initial solo projects
were Wu-Tang albums first and foremost.

I'll put it into tennis vernacular since it's hard to understand- game,
set, match.

MF

[mattmatical]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:26:47 -0600, "StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com>
wrote:

>> StephenJ wrote:
>> > Everyone liked "tha crossroads", but i liked the whole record. It's
>> great
>> > start to finish...
>
>> Bone Thugs were a regional hit that made it big in the mainstream with
>> one track.
>
>Disparage it any way you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Bone was
>bigger than Wu (sold more records).
>
>> And all that being said, their sales per album are still lower than the
>> Wu. Which was the original point.
>
>No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big deal.
>Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything. Total
>sales tell who was bigger.

The bigger seller, maybe. Doesn't mean that as a group Bone
were 'bigger' (i.e. had the more dedicated fans, were more
influential) than the Wu.

Matt

[quest19...@webtv.net]

Hip Hop has a funny way of honoring people. Tupac got big AFTER he
walked out of the hospital after being shot. Other than that, he was a
political MC from the West Coast, and they weren't in abundance in the
late 80s. Biggie, had a nice "flow", but what made him great really? His
own mother disavowed much of what he was saying was his "reality". Chalk
it up to good storytelling.

[bse]

Bone = Bigger pop act.

Wu = Bigger Hiphop act.

Bone made thier fans mostly amongst pop listeners and people who didnt
listen to anything else. Wu took thier listeners from the world of
Hiphop making them the biggest Hiphop group. The centrepiece of 90s
Hiphop. The elite troops in Hiphops army.

Now can we shut up with teh stats?

bs

[StephenJ]

> >No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big deal.
> >Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything. Total
> >sales tell who was bigger.
>
> The bigger seller, maybe. Doesn't mean that as a group Bone
> were 'bigger' (i.e. had the more dedicated fans, were more
> influential) than the Wu.

I've already said Wu were very influential, but we've defined "bigness" in
this thread in terms of sales..

[StephenJ]

> > No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big
> deal.
> > Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything.
> Total
> > sales tell who was bigger.
>
> No. Total sales tell you who sold more. It does not factor in number of
> releases. It's like comparing a baseball player who gets 3000 hits, but
> has a .250 average and played for 25 years, and a player who gets 3000,
> with a .330 average who played for 15 years.

No, Bone and Wu could both release 20 records, and there's no guarantee
anyone will buy them.

And as has already been noted, Wu's sales are predicated far more on one
single album than Bone's are. Bone had two 4-million sellers and a 2-million
seller. Wu had one record that sold 4 million, and the other 3 sold 2.5
million *combined*. So Wu was far more a "flash in the pan". One big record
and 3 small ones.

> Bone Thugs, according to the numbers you posted, sold somewhere around
> 11.5 million albums on 7 releases. The Wu sold 7 on 4. Advantage Wu.

6.5 on 4, so actually Bone has the higher average.

Though that doesn't mean anything since the total sales are what matter, and
it's 11.5 to 6.5, a huge margin for Bone..

[bse]

In article <yyfZd.11285$N15.8055@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > > No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big
> > deal.
> > > Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell anything.
> > Total
> > > sales tell who was bigger.
> >
> > No. Total sales tell you who sold more. It does not factor in number of
> > releases. It's like comparing a baseball player who gets 3000 hits, but
> > has a .250 average and played for 25 years, and a player who gets 3000,
> > with a .330 average who played for 15 years.
>
> No, Bone and Wu could both release 20 records, and there's no guarantee
> anyone will buy them.
>
> And as has already been noted, Wu's sales are predicated far more on one
> single album than Bone's are. Bone had two 4-million sellers and a 2-million
> seller. Wu had one record that sold 4 million, and the other 3 sold 2.5
> million *combined*. So Wu was far more a "flash in the pan". One big record
> and 3 small ones.

Thank god the world and reality doesn't just revolve around money and
sales.......

[TJ Xenos]

noixe! wrote:
> > Pharoahe's sole solo album went gold. The genius has sold like 3
> > million solo records and is a main member of wu tang clan who've
sold
> > like 20 million. I dont see how they dont fit the criteria.
> >
>
> internal affairs went gold!?
>
> damn!

All that rawkus shit was goin gold right before they shut down. I
think the smut peddlers even sold a couple hundred k.

[TJ Xenos]

Theres a second collection and i believe another album after
resurection that sold bullshit if we wanna talk averages. Not to
mention I'm pretty sure wu solos consistently outsell bone solos
(theres prolly an equal amount too, Im pretty sure all the bones have
atleast 2)

[estebanJ]

IIRC, after Resurrection would be in the 2000s, and we were talking
about the 1990s.

[estebanJ]

Hey, i'd want to "shut up about the stats" too, if they made my
argument look as bad as MF's.

But like it or not, Bone was a hiphop group, so comparing them to Wu is
fair game. It's not like i'm comparing Wu to U2.

[TJ Xenos]

estebanJ wrote:
> IIRC, after Resurrection would be in the 2000s, and we were talking
> about the 1990s.

resurrection dropped in February 2000. The W dropped Nov 2000, Rusty
Flag dropped Dec (15th i think) 2001. So we obviously arent just
talkin about the 90s.

[estebanJ]

>resurrection dropped in February 2000. The W dropped Nov >2000, Rusty
>Flag dropped Dec (15th i think) 2001. So we obviously arent just
>talkin about the 90s.

Thanks for the correction. Based on RIAA information, Wu had two albums
certified in the 1990s:

36 chambers: platinum
forever: 4x platinum

Bone had four:

creepin: 2x platinum
1999: 4x platinum

war: 4x platinum
GH volume 1: gold

That's 10.5 million albums sold in the 90s compared to 5 million.

Anyway we slice it, Bone sold lots more and were clearly the "bigger"
act.

It's an open-and-shut case, yet for some reason some around here don't
like to accept it...

[Sumran]

MF wrote:

> As the Brits would say, this is bollocks. 'Forever' sold a shitload of
> albums, and was one of the most anticipated albums of 97. It had a
> radio single that ran almost 6 minutes long, had no chorus, and yet
> still made the rounds on MTV, etc. in video form, while going triple
> platinum if I'm not mistaken. All without the benefit of a cloying
> single featuring a performer who died of AIDS. Amazing ain't it? Not
> only that, but subsequent albums still performed well, with 'The W'
> reaching plat with almost no promotion from a near dead Loud Records
> (it did over 300k in it's first week), and 'Iron Flag' doing almost the
> same, albeit with slower sales overall (again, with no promotion from
> Loud).

yeah I actually walked into the shop and went "Damn the W is out" and
bought it on the spot.

Then exactly the same thing happened with Iron Flag.

Sorry off topic!

--

"Life is a struggle, life is beautiful, life is a beautiful struggle"
Mos Def

--

Contributer to www.rmhh.com

[A to the L]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:32:31 +0000, Sumran
<scho...@TAKEITOUTyahoo.com> wrote:

>MF wrote:
>
>> As the Brits would say, this is bollocks. 'Forever' sold a shitload of
>> albums, and was one of the most anticipated albums of 97. It had a
>> radio single that ran almost 6 minutes long, had no chorus, and yet
>> still made the rounds on MTV, etc. in video form, while going triple
>> platinum if I'm not mistaken. All without the benefit of a cloying
>> single featuring a performer who died of AIDS. Amazing ain't it? Not
>> only that, but subsequent albums still performed well, with 'The W'
>> reaching plat with almost no promotion from a near dead Loud Records
>> (it did over 300k in it's first week), and 'Iron Flag' doing almost the
>> same, albeit with slower sales overall (again, with no promotion from
>> Loud).
>
>yeah I actually walked into the shop and went "Damn the W is out" and
>bought it on the spot.
>
>Then exactly the same thing happened with Iron Flag.

commiserations...

PEACH

A to the L

[TJ Xenos]

estebanJ wrote:
> >resurrection dropped in February 2000. The W dropped Nov >2000,
Rusty
> >Flag dropped Dec (15th i think) 2001. So we obviously arent just
> >talkin about the 90s.
>
> Thanks for the correction. Based on RIAA information, Wu had two
albums
> certified in the 1990s:
>
> 36 chambers: platinum
> forever: 4x platinum
>

5x plat on 2 records = avg 2.5 (or 1.5 if we count actual units sold)

> Bone had four:
>
> creepin: 2x platinum
> 1999: 4x platinum
> war: 4x platinum
> GH volume 1: gold

Creepin is an EP and i believe the certification standards are lower
(half what it is for an LP I think). 10.5 certs over 4 records is
2.625 avg (1.875 actual sales)

>
> That's 10.5 million albums sold in the 90s compared to 5 million.

You're still ignoring the wu solos though...

>
> Anyway we slice it, Bone sold lots more and were clearly the "bigger"
> act.

I think the most logical way would be a sort of Olympic scoring method
droppng the high and low and averaging. Because I dont think theres
really any argument that E1999 sold shitfucks of copies to non-hiphop
fans via the Crossroads crossover. And Wu tang co-headlined an arena
tour with Rage Against the Machine. Jay-z is the only other artist Ive
seen do an arena tour recently. Also, I'm pretty sure wu's done
ridiculous #s overseas...

>
> It's an open-and-shut case, yet for some reason some around here
don't
> like to accept it...

If you just want to count total us sales in the 90s, then yes.

[Sumran]

A to the L wrote:

>>yeah I actually walked into the shop and went "Damn the W is out" and
>>bought it on the spot.

>>Then exactly the same thing happened with Iron Flag.

Thanks :-) Its ok after the first spin of each I went back to 36
chambers and Forever....

[suntzu]

Sumran wrote:
> A to the L wrote:
>
>>> yeah I actually walked into the shop and went "Damn the W is out" and
>>> bought it on the spot.
>
>
>>> Then exactly the same thing happened with Iron Flag.
>
>
> Thanks :-) Its ok after the first spin of each I went back to 36
> chambers and Forever....
>

i think both of those were solid albums, if not nearly as good as the
first 2.

[estebanJ]

>5x plat on 2 records = avg 2.5 (or 1.5 if we >count actual units sold)

I don't get this "average" thing. Sure, i can see it at the extremes.
For example, a band that has two 5-million sellers over 10 years is
*perhaps* bigger than a band that has ten 1-million sellers over the
same time. Surely, the former's "peak" popularity was greater. But on
the other hand, the latter band was always reasonably "big" during that
time, whereas the band that had the two big records may have been
largely invisible for perhaps 5 of those 10 years. So it's a question
of "burning brighter" vs. "longer lasting".

But the key is that this has *no* relevance to the Bone/Wu comparison,
since Bone had 2 records that sold 4 million compared to only 1 for Wu.
In other words, Bone was both "brighter" *and* "longer lasting"...

>Creepin is an EP and i believe the >certification standards are lower
>(half what it is for an LP I think).

IIRC, That used to be the case, before the early 90s. Since the
mid-90s, the RIAA calls EP's "short form albums", and the cert
requirements are the same.

>If you just want to count total us sales in the >90s, then yes.

Yes, that was my contention. I don't have any idea how big either act
was overseas.

[bse]

In article <d14p2a$jtu$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>,
suntzu <suntzu.h...@freeshell.org> wrote:

I like Iron Flag a lot more than Forever.

[Sumran]

bse wrote:

> I like Iron Flag a lot more than Forever.

I still spin forever but Iron Flag doesn't get spun often apart forma
few tracks.

I thought "The W" really sucked. Chamber Music was dope though.

[bse]

In article <d14ujt$52m$1...@oheron.kent.ac.uk>,
Sumran <scho...@TAKEITOUTyahoo.com> wrote:

> bse wrote:
>
> > I like Iron Flag a lot more than Forever.
>
> I still spin forever but Iron Flag doesn't get spun often apart forma
> few tracks.

Iron Flag is good. "Good thing we bought the glock" or whatever is a
monster track. "Uzi" is perfect. Its a good album.

> I thought "The W" really sucked. Chamber Music was dope though.

Yeah the W weren't up to much but the Ike track was good and "Protect Ya
Neck (The Jump Off)" is the best post-36 Chambers Wu group track! YES!

[MF]

TJ Xenos wrote:
> > That's 10.5 million albums sold in the 90s compared to 5 million.
>
> You're still ignoring the wu solos though...

Of course he is. It doesn't fit his mindset. There was a FIVE year gap
between Enter the 36 and Forever, during which time, Bone Thugs
released more LP's, and consequently sold more albums overall. That's
why the average is so important. Otherwise, just include all the solos
too.

MF

[StephenJ]

> TJ Xenos wrote:
> > > That's 10.5 million albums sold in the 90s compared to 5 million.
> >
> > You're still ignoring the wu solos though...
>
> Of course he is.

That's a lie. I said long ago that it's silly to count solo albums in a
group's total, since they aren't the same thing.

[bse]

In article <UKqZd.11356$N15.8632@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > TJ Xenos wrote:
> > > > That's 10.5 million albums sold in the 90s compared to 5 million.
> > >
> > > You're still ignoring the wu solos though...
> >
> > Of course he is.
>
> That's a lie. I said long ago that it's silly to count solo albums in a
> group's total, since they aren't the same thing.

But sir gimpy, the whole point of Wu was that they engineered thier
contract allowing hem all to do solos, and thusly had thier big group
album, went off and did solos sold off the group name/success and then
regrouped for the second group album a long time later. Instead of
having a series of group albums at thier peak that would have made them
all some money, they went off and did solos that made them all MORE
money (or at least the ones who got thier act/deal together).
To ignore the Wu solo albums in the mid 90s is to completely
misunderstand the Wu plan, and makes this comparison irrelevent.

bse

[StephenJ]

> > That's a lie. I said long ago that it's silly to count solo albums in a
> > group's total, since they aren't the same thing.
>
> But sir gimpy, the whole point of Wu was that they engineered thier
> contract allowing hem all to do solos

What Wu did was when they signed as a group to Loud, the individual members
ratained their solo rights, such that the individuals weren't "captive" to
the group record label. That was a nice perk for each individual, because
they could go off and negotiate a better deal for themselves with other
labels rather than be forced to accept what the group label was offering.

But that's irrelevant to this discussion, because it doesn't change the fact
that the solo records were - solo records.

[Wasteland Drifter]

StephenJ wrote:
>>
>> What Wu did was when they signed as a group to Loud, the individual
>> members ratained their solo rights, such that the individuals
>> weren't "captive" to the group record label. That was a nice perk
>> for each individual, because they could go off and negotiate a
>> better deal for themselves with other labels rather than be forced
>> to accept what the group label was offering.
>>
>> But that's irrelevant to this discussion, because it doesn't change
>> the fact that the solo records were - solo records.

They were solo Wu records, to ignore their significance in the Clans success
is beyond stupid...

Now shut up with your pedantic argument because your looking like a total
herb...

[bse]

In article <tRrZd.11368$N15.4307@okepread06>,
"StephenJ" <cjo...@corpus.com> wrote:

> > > That's a lie. I said long ago that it's silly to count solo albums in a
> > > group's total, since they aren't the same thing.
> >
> > But sir gimpy, the whole point of Wu was that they engineered thier
> > contract allowing hem all to do solos
>
> What Wu did was when they signed as a group to Loud, the individual members
> ratained their solo rights, such that the individuals weren't "captive" to
> the group record label. That was a nice perk for each individual, because
> they could go off and negotiate a better deal for themselves with other
> labels rather than be forced to accept what the group label was offering.
>
> But that's irrelevant to this discussion, because it doesn't change the fact
> that the solo records were - solo records.

Ah, whatever. It must be boring living in a brain like yours.

Okay, do it you way.

I don't give a toss, bs

[StephenJ]

> Okay, do it you way.
>
> I don't give a toss, bs

If we did it your way.

in the 90s:

raekwon: 2 gold albums
gza: 2 gold albums
rza: 1 gold album
method: 2 platinum albums
odb: 2 gold albums
ghostface: 1 gold album

That adds up to 6 million

krayzie bone: 1 platinum album
bizzy bone: 1 gold album

= 1.5 million

bone still sold more total records (11.5 million to 11 million), and their
"average" was higher as well (12 certified wu releases compared to 6 bone
releases).

anyway, i came into this just tossing out my opinion that bone was bigger
than wu, and got jumped on like i was crazy (mf said: Bone Thugs was NOWHERE
near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
head on straight). .

No matter how you figure it, i wasn't crazy. Doing it my way, the better
way, Bone was far bigger. Even counting all those wu solo records, Bone was
about as big. It's close.

[TJ Xenos]

StephenJ wrote:
> > Okay, do it you way.
> >
> > I don't give a toss, bs
>
> If we did it your way.
>
> in the 90s:
>
> raekwon: 2 gold albums
> gza: 2 gold albums
> rza: 1 gold album
> method: 2 platinum albums
> odb: 2 gold albums
> ghostface: 1 gold album
>
> That adds up to 6 million
>
> krayzie bone: 1 platinum album
> bizzy bone: 1 gold album
>

The krayzie is a double disc. There's flesh records too, that nobody
bought, I seen em in the used store freshman year of college (fall 99)

> = 1.5 million
>
> bone still sold more total records (11.5 million to 11 million), and
their
> "average" was higher as well (12 certified wu releases compared to 6
bone
> releases).
>

But theres more bone releases you arent including that sold next to
nothing and drag down the average.

> anyway, i came into this just tossing out my opinion that bone was
bigger
> than wu, and got jumped on like i was crazy (mf said: Bone Thugs was
NOWHERE
> near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
> head on straight). .
>

I think on a national scale bone was bigger. On a hiphop scale wu was
bigger, and on an international scale wu was bigger. Ergo bone's main
popularity came from pop crossover. Also, wu being a NYC group is hurt
saleswise because everyone in the northeast just buys bootlegs and
mixtapes.

> No matter how you figure it, i wasn't crazy. Doing it my way, the
better
> way, Bone was far bigger. Even counting all those wu solo records,
Bone was
> about as big. It's close.

If we define size by the amount of the biggest record sold to white
people who dont listen to hiphop, yes. Throw out E 1999 and you're on
more or less equal footing, albeit with bone getting much more
Marketing.

[StephenJ]

> But theres more bone releases you arent including that sold next to
> nothing and drag down the average.

In the 90s? Like what? And surely they don't add up to all those wu
releases...

> > anyway, i came into this just tossing out my opinion that bone was
> bigger
> > than wu, and got jumped on like i was crazy (mf said: Bone Thugs was
> NOWHERE
> > near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
> > head on straight). .

> I think on a national scale bone was bigger. On a hiphop scale wu was
> bigger, and on an international scale wu was bigger.

I checked the European data base going back to January 1996, and from that
year on, neither Wu nor Bone nor any of their solo members scored a platinum
record in Europe since that time.

> > No matter how you figure it, i wasn't crazy. Doing it my way, the
> better
> > way, Bone was far bigger. Even counting all those wu solo records,
> Bone was
> > about as big. It's close.
>
> If we define size by the amount of the biggest record sold to white
> people who dont listen to hiphop, yes. Throw out E 1999 and you're on
> more or less equal footing, albeit with bone getting much more
> Marketing.

Yes, in order to make Bone and Wu equal commercially, we'd have to throw out
Bone's biggest selling record...

[TJ Xenos]

StephenJ wrote:
> > But theres more bone releases you arent including that sold next to
> > nothing and drag down the average.
>
> In the 90s? Like what? And surely they don't add up to all those wu
> releases...

There's atleast 2 flesh-n-bone records i saw used in 99. And the gay
mo thugs compilations.

>
> > > anyway, i came into this just tossing out my opinion that bone
was
> > bigger
> > > than wu, and got jumped on like i was crazy (mf said: Bone Thugs
was
> > NOWHERE
> > > near the Wu. EVER. Popularity or talent. Get yer
> > > head on straight). .
>
> > I think on a national scale bone was bigger. On a hiphop scale wu
was
> > bigger, and on an international scale wu was bigger.
>
> I checked the European data base going back to January 1996, and from
that
> year on, neither Wu nor Bone nor any of their solo members scored a
platinum
> record in Europe since that time.
>

Yeah, thats the problem with the riaa vs soundscan. RIAA only gives
you certs and not actual sales, therefore theres a gazillion releases
selling somewhere between 1 and 500,000 copies. My point here is that
the margin of error with certs vs sales is greater than the actual
difference in certifications, therefore the RIAA figures CAN'T tell the
story accurately. Seriously, when records sell up to roughly 5 million
records (very few exceptions) isn't a million records kind of a small
unit of measurement?

> > > No matter how you figure it, i wasn't crazy. Doing it my way, the
> > better
> > > way, Bone was far bigger. Even counting all those wu solo
records,
> > Bone was
> > > about as big. It's close.
> >
> > If we define size by the amount of the biggest record sold to white
> > people who dont listen to hiphop, yes. Throw out E 1999 and you're
on
> > more or less equal footing, albeit with bone getting much more
> > Marketing.
>
> Yes, in order to make Bone and Wu equal commercially, we'd have to
throw out
> Bone's biggest selling record...
>

E.1999 Eternal was all over mtv and top 40 radio and got bought by a
bunch of white kids who's only hiphop records are Doggystyle, The
Chronic, All Eyez On Me, and Life After Death. The fact is, you see a
lot more bone records in discount bins and used than 90s era wu shit.
The first half is certs are done based on shipped #'s by the label,
tons of discount new copies = tons of "sold" copies that never actually
got bought. The latter shows how the wu was more popular legitimately
as opposed to fad.

[TJ Xenos]

estebanJ wrote:
> >5x plat on 2 records = avg 2.5 (or 1.5 if we >count actual units
sold)
>
>
> I don't get this "average" thing. Sure, i can see it at the extremes.
> For example, a band that has two 5-million sellers over 10 years is
> *perhaps* bigger than a band that has ten 1-million sellers over the
> same time. Surely, the former's "peak" popularity was greater. But on
> the other hand, the latter band was always reasonably "big" during
that
> time, whereas the band that had the two big records may have been
> largely invisible for perhaps 5 of those 10 years. So it's a question
> of "burning brighter" vs. "longer lasting".
>
> But the key is that this has *no* relevance to the Bone/Wu
comparison,
> since Bone had 2 records that sold 4 million compared to only 1 for
Wu.
> In other words, Bone was both "brighter" *and* "longer lasting"...
>

How does The wu still pushing cd;s and dvds and books in 2k4 while bone
opens up for ICP and Twiztid "burning brighter" and "longer lasting" ?

[TJ Xenos]

StephenJ wrote:
> > >No, that was a nonsense point that you tried to blow up into a big
deal.
> > >Anyone can release a record, it doesn't mean it will sell
anything. Total
> > >sales tell who was bigger.
> >
> > The bigger seller, maybe. Doesn't mean that as a group Bone
> > were 'bigger' (i.e. had the more dedicated fans, were more
> > influential) than the Wu.
>
> I've already said Wu were very influential, but we've defined
"bigness" in
> this thread in terms of sales..
>
>

This is the exact point where the thread got hijacked. No one earlier
in the thread defined "bigness" in terms of sales by the group except
you.

[underwo...@hotmail.com]

It seems to me that any multi-platinum artist who didn't "put east the
coast back on the map" is more otfen labeled as something bought by
"white kids, the non-hip hop crowd, retards, homosexuals, illeagal
aliens, etc.", but the truth is that the streets (the other 4/5 of the
urban community not fortunate enough to live in the five bouroghs)
loved bone with a passion.I've met (black) people from all over the
country who bought BTNH religiously because of what was (once) a unique
style (isn't that a big part of what hip hop is all about?).Don't get
it twisted, personally I hated most of their material (sometimes
senteces need to be at least a little coherrent), but I can respect
that many folks in the hood were really into them.(and Wu too!)

[TJ Xenos]

underwo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> It seems to me that any multi-platinum artist who didn't "put east
the
> coast back on the map" is more otfen labeled as something bought by
> "white kids, the non-hip hop crowd, retards, homosexuals, illeagal
> aliens, etc.", but the truth is that the streets (the other 4/5 of
the

If you get tons of play on non-hiphop sources you're gonna be bought by
white kids, the non-hiphop crowd etc. If you only are promoted or are
mostle promoted through hiphop outlets you're only/mostly gonna attract
a hiphop audience.

> urban community not fortunate enough to live in the five bouroghs)
> loved bone with a passion.I've met (black) people from all over the
> country who bought BTNH religiously because of what was (once) a
unique
> style (isn't that a big part of what hip hop is all about?).Don't get
> it twisted, personally I hated most of their material (sometimes
> senteces need to be at least a little coherrent), but I can respect
> that many folks in the hood were really into them.(and Wu too!)

All i know is hella more white nonhiphop poeple Ive met bought E1999
than anything wu, ergo I dont think its ridiculous to extrapolate that
to More of them were sold to nonhiphop ppl, and therefore that album
isnt really representative of how big they were within hiphop

[estebanJ]

>If you get tons of play on non-hiphop sources you're gonna be bought
by
> white kids, the non-hiphop crowd etc.

I don't visit this ng frequently, but i have been posting (off and on)
since 1996, and it always has seemed to me that a large % of the
posters are white, and weird shit like white canadians, white euros,
etc

Not exactly "the street"...

[Wasteland Drifter]

Erm weird shit?

Just coz some of us are Canadian or European doesn't mean our shit is any
weirder than yours...

It comes out of exactly the same place and probably smells just as bad...

>>
>> Not exactly "the street"...

By your definition...

Now go back to reading lists of record sales to try and explain why a shite
group deserves more credit than one of the most influential groups of the
90's...

[estebanJ]

>This is the exact point where the thread got hijacked. No one earlier
>in the thread defined "bigness" in terms of sales by the group except
> you.

Not true. MF mentioned that Wu were the biggest HH group of the 90s
(without defining what he meant by 'big') and i replied that IMO Bone
were bigger (also not defining what i meant by "big").

MF then replied that Wu was the biggest, whether we meant "sales or
talent", at which point i ran with the sales aspect of it...So he was
the first to "define" the term.

And i ran with the sales aspect because a sales claim can be evaluated
objectively by looking at certifications and the like, whereas "talent"
claims are just opinion.

Plus, in the common parlance, when a HH act or any musical act is
referred to as "big", the meaning is in terms of sales.

[Wasteland Drifter]

estebanJ wrote:
>>> This is the exact point where the thread got hijacked. No one
>>> earlier in the thread defined "bigness" in terms of sales by the
>>> group except you.
>>
>> Not true. MF mentioned that Wu were the biggest HH group of the 90s
>> (without defining what he meant by 'big') and i replied that IMO Bone
>> were bigger (also not defining what i meant by "big").

The biggest difference between both sides of this 'debate' is that MF is
correct and you are talking bollocks...

[mattmatical]

I like that one.

Matt

[A to the L]

On 15 Mar 2005 10:19:14 -0800, "estebanJ" <sja...@home.com> wrote:

>Plus, in the common parlance, when a HH act or any musical act is
>referred to as "big", the meaning is in terms of sales.

EPMD say hi...

PEACH

A to the L

[suntzu]

Sumran wrote:
> bse wrote:
>
>> I like Iron Flag a lot more than Forever.
>
>
> I still spin forever but Iron Flag doesn't get spun often apart forma
> few tracks.
>
> I thought "The W" really sucked. Chamber Music was dope though.
>

i still listen to iron flag and the w, but not as much as either of the
first two.

i really love "i can't go to sleep"; "do you really" and "gravel pit"
are also both dope.

[StephenJ]

> > But the key is that this has *no* relevance to the Bone/Wu
> comparison,
> > since Bone had 2 records that sold 4 million compared to only 1 for
> Wu.
> > In other words, Bone was both "brighter" *and* "longer lasting"...
> >
>
> How does The wu still pushing cd;s and dvds and books in 2k4 while bone
> opens up for ICP and Twiztid "burning brighter" and "longer lasting" ?

We were talking about the 90s...

As for now, both Bone and Wu are far from where they were 10 yrs ago, but
Bone had a platinum CD more recently.