Say it ain't so Nas
Kyler Jackson
I just read that Nas debuted (sp?) at #1 on Billboard. I was hoping
this wouldn't happen because it gives all those "wannabe underground
keepin it real everything popular is comercialized" brothers from
calling him a sell out. I like Nas' album because I didn't try to
compare it to Illmatic after I had listened to it and realized it
wasn't the same concept. My question is, why do ignorant fools think
that if an album sells on a large scale than the artist is a sellout.
Here are a few examples:
Nas - the only reason he became so popular is because of the nutswinging
that took place after Illmatic. He could have put out a Christmas album
and it would have ( officialy) sold because of all the attention that
the centralized rap world gave him.
Fugees - From what I understand, they haven't changed their style so
if they are doing exactly what they did when they started, how are
they selling out? Just because they have an R&B track? It is because
Lauryn has skills vocally and lyrically. Asking them to not showcase
that is like telling a switch-hitter to just bat from one side so the
crowd doesn't get confused.
Hammer - He is a sellout because he changed his style. He experimented
with the gangsta style when that just isn't him.
2PAC - He hasn't changed one bit in terms of lyrical content. Its the
same hardcore OG BS with stuff about women but he never hopped on that
blunt-smoking bandwagon.
Ice Cube - His stuff hasn't changed, its just that everyone is trying
to compare everything he does to Death Certificate. You just can't
do that because death certificate is one of the dopest joints ever!
His style and content are the same but his substance has definitely
fallen off.
Fresh Prince - I've been reading for quite some time about him being
a sell out. How? Out of everyone, he has maintained his rapping comedian
style from day one. I must admit I am sad to see his TV show come to
an end because it took away a great deal from black television. Now
all the shows are going to try to mirror that Martin format but even
that got old a couple of years ago. All the rest will try that black
guy white guy crap that isn't funny anymore. The only show that is
still straying away from that sterotypical black person is Family Matters.
Its corny but its all we got. Cherish these shows while we have them.
Homicide, NY Undercover, Family Matters, Hanging with MR. Cooper (cheesy),
Martin (played) and any others I missed.
Why are we so quick to bring down our own people and alienate them
for their success? People act like someone has to sell out to be
successful. Denzell and Wesley didn't sell out sh*t so give them and
everyone else the respect for their accomplishments.
Oliver Wang
On 12 Jul 1996, Kyler Jackson wrote:
> Nas - the only reason he became so popular is because of the nutswinging
> that took place after Illmatic. He could have put out a Christmas album
> and it would have ( officialy) sold because of all the attention that
> the centralized rap world gave him.
No offense but that doesn't make any sense to me. How come Illmatic
DIDN'T go gold then if people would've been so willing to buy a Nas
Christmas album?
I think the reason he's popular RIGHT now, is b/c a good % of the people
who bought "It Was Written" were NOT Illmatic fans necessarily, but might
have bought the new album on the strength of how much "If I Ruled the
Ruled" was marketed.
Did Nas sell out? Well, I think we should get away from the term selling
out, b/c as people have pointed out...every artist is after some degree
of success. The better question is: Did Nas fall the f--- off in his
attempt to sell more records? Same question goes for any artist that we
"suspect" of selling out. In my opinion, Nas did NOT fall off, but that
doesn't mean that "It Was Written" isn't weaker than "Illmatic" by a long
shot.
> Fugees - From what I understand, they haven't changed their style so
> if they are doing exactly what they did when they started, how are
> they selling out? Just because they have an R&B track? It is because
> Lauryn has skills vocally and lyrically. Asking them to not showcase
> that is like telling a switch-hitter to just bat from one side so the
> crowd doesn't get confused.
Agreed...the Fugees, IMO, didn't sellout. But they did change their
style...thank god for that, b/c their original style was kind of weak. I
think the Fugees...or at least Lauryn, is more a victim of an R&B/hip hop
backlash more than anything else. In another day and age, they could've
dropped "Killing Me Softly" and not gotten crucified for it from some
quarters. Personally, I LIKED the song long before it blew up on the
radio.
> 2PAC - He hasn't changed one bit in terms of lyrical content. Its the
> same hardcore OG BS with stuff about women but he never hopped on that
> blunt-smoking bandwagon.
Umm...I don't think his early stuff was like that. You're off base on
this one. But I don't think 2Pac fell off...he changed up.
> Ice Cube - His stuff hasn't changed, its just that everyone is trying
> to compare everything he does to Death Certificate. You just can't
> do that because death certificate is one of the dopest joints ever!
> His style and content are the same but his substance has definitely
> fallen off.
WRONG. What's the difference b/t content and substance? I've always
though they meant the same thing. Cube has fallen off across the
board...unilaterally. Has he "sold out"?...debateable b/c he's not making
Mariah Carey pop songs...and I have yet to see him on an R&B track (but
maybe I missed something).
> Fresh Prince - I've been reading for quite some time about him being
> a sell out.
Agreed...Fresh Prince may not have made too many classic albums, but he's
been consistent with what he's done. Most heads don't like him b/c they
don't think he's "hardcore" enough. I admit, he's not one of my
favorites either, but he's never fronted to be more than he was. BTW,
Will Smith was pretty good in ID4.
Peace,
o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ollie aka Oliver aka O-D.U.B. ol...@igc.apc.org
Visit the OZONE on the WWW Mondays 7-9:30pm 90.7 FM
http://www.igc.apc.org/ollie/ozone.html KALX Berkeley
Chad Scovile
Nas, will the debate ever subside?
Three years ago, when "Illmatic" was released, would on hesistate to
think that there would be a Dre-produced track on it?
West-coast appeal baby, west coast appeal. If the track wasn't there,
would the album sell nearly as successfully out here? No way.
"It Was Written" was made for the sole-purpose to platinum dreams.
"Illmatic" should've gone triple platinum, but since when does the
public wreckonize talent?
Fugees popularity will subside, and seeing how they've already lost
their street credibility with the onset of their material to pop radio,
they're careers will probably follow. Their commercial success relied
heavily on the selling power of "Killing Me Softly", unquestionably.
The only other track with comparable, public digestible flavor is
"No Woman, No Cry", which is currently being over-played by pop
stations across the country. The rest of the album is strictly Hip Hop,
which no matter how much they try, will never be accepted by pop radio.
I suspect the Fugees record company will push them to be more R&B oriented in order to sell records. Looking ahead, I can also see the
corporate world putting a wedge in between Lauryn / Wyclef and Praz.
Notice how the winning formula for a record is now 7/8 Hip Hop, 1/8
wack R&B. Even De La succumbed to this.
-----------------
Chad K. Scoville
Intel Corporation
csco...@scdt.intel.com
Anthony Sebro
On 16 Jul 1996, Chad Scovile wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960712153857.23252D-100000@igc6>, Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> writes:
> |> On 12 Jul 1996, Kyler Jackson wrote:
> |>
> |> > 2PAC - He hasn't changed one bit in terms of lyrical content. Its the
> |> > same hardcore OG BS with stuff about women but he never hopped on that
> |> > blunt-smoking bandwagon.
> |>
> |> Umm...I don't think his early stuff was like that. You're off base on
> |> this one. But I don't think 2Pac fell off...he changed up.
Agreed. 2Pac was known for clowning around with the underground. More-
over, he didn't start all of this player "thug-life" stuff untill after
his first album. His first album was more political, dealing with
teenage pregnacy and police brutality. He then followed the money into
the whole player genre...
> |>
> |> > Ice Cube - His stuff hasn't changed, its just that everyone is trying
> |> > to compare everything he does to Death Certificate. You just can't
> |> > do that because death certificate is one of the dopest joints ever!
> |> > His style and content are the same but his substance has definitely
> |> > fallen off.
> |>
Ice Cube is another to change his focus ideologically, by including
more songs from an Islamic point of view. However, brothers tell me
that he did not maintain such a stance, and many folks I know lost
respect for him because of it. However, I do not know the details...
Tony "Keynote" Sebro
Chad Scovile
In article <APC&1'0'9950aad1'a...@igc.apc.org>, Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> From: Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org>
|>
|> Chad says:
|>
|> > West-coast appeal baby, west coast appeal. If the track wasn't there,
|> > would the album sell nearly as successfully out here? No way.
|>
|> or break on this projct...now Snoop...that'd be another situation.
|> > "It Was Written" was made for the sole-purpose to platinum dreams.
|> > "Illmatic" should've gone triple platinum, but since when does the
|> > public wreckonize talent?
|>
|>
|> > Fugees popularity will subside, and seeing how they've already lost
|> > their street credibility with the onset of their material to pop radio,
|> > they're careers will probably follow.
|>
|> credibility will rest, I think, on their NEXT album or future efforts.
|> Other artists who have lost street credibility in the past, have tended
|> to lose it b/c they came out wack. Big Daddy Kane is a good example.
|> Special Ed anyone? MC Lyte, even RunDMC. Others just lose it b/c
|> everyone forgets them: Rakim.
|>
|> The Fugees, in my opinion, are selling sextuple platinum on the strength
|> of an excellent album...I don't know how all other good albums have sold,
|> but for the quantity that they're selling, I bet no other group can match
|> them in the quality of the album itself.
|>
|> If the next Fugees album tries to capitalize, formulistically, on the
|> same elements that made this one such a big seller, and do it more so,
|> then they're treading on dangerous ground. Of course, I bet if they
|> released an album, that was JUST like "The Score" in terms of its
|> incorporation of R&B, people will be yelling "sell out" even if they
|> didn't do more of it. In that respect, I think the "street" is all too
|> willing to bash the Fugees for repeating what made them successful to
|> begin with.
|>
|> Personally, I don't imagine the Fugees falling off on the next album, but
|> then again, a lot of folks didn't expect Arrested Development's second
|> album to be so weak either. But I do think that the Fugees have the
|> advantage of being a group with two albums out. If "The Score" was their
|> debut, I think they'd have greater chances of being "lead astray" by
|> their own success. With their experience, I think they'll make good
|> moves again.
|>
|> > I suspect the Fugees record company will push them to be more R&B oriented in order to sell records. Looking ahead, I can also see the
|> > corporate world putting a wedge in between Lauryn / Wyclef and Praz.
|>
|> this album give the Fugeesin negotiating future records b/t themselves
|> and Columbia/Sony. No question, the label's gonna want another 6 million
|> seller...whether or not the Fugees cave in is another story. What wedge
|> would you be referring to? You think C/S would encourage Lauryn to go
|> solo too? No doubt...
|>
|> > Notice how the winning formula for a record is now 7/8 Hip Hop, 1/8
|> > wack R&B. Even De La succumbed to this.
|>
|> send up on this whole trend.
|>
|> Late,
|>
|> O
A few additional comments. . . .
Lyrically, production aspects, "The Score" wasn't even close to all that. Point blank, plain and simple, the Hip Hop collective was looking
for a diamond in the rough. What had been released pre-February?
Nothing at all since November's "Liquid Swords". Praz and Wyclef
can't stand, blink, or even light candles near the likes of say Nas,
KRS, Wu's grandmasters, or even Rakim for that matter. Now tell me why
they deserve to sell six million while the former can barely hit gold?
Fugee's were pimped, played, and hustled by their label. Notice how
when "Killing Me Softly" is played on pop radio, Wyclef's voice is
edited out? Why is that? Look for an easy R&B flavor and a definite
Columbia/Sony influence on their material. Depending on the logistics
of their contract, they'll either re-negotitate, or re-sign with another
label. No doubt Fugees will be pushed for Lauryn acapellas and swoonin'
vocals backed by want-to-be hard-hittin drum chops. The money-making
formula is there, present and accounted for.
KhariSamps
> Notice how the winning formula for a record is now 7/8 Hip Hop, 1/8
> wack R&B. Even De La succumbed to this.
True indeed, though I thought "Baby, Baby..." was some what of a mocking
send up on this whole trend.
It most certainly was. (The WRMS bit is the big tip-off.) But let's be
real; De La has always had a radio-ready song on each LP (Me, Myself & I,
Saturdays, Breakadawn, 4 More).
KJS
Anthony Sebro
On 18 Jul 1996, Chad Scovile wrote:
> Head to head. . . . . . .
>
> Firstly, I bought "The Score" the day it was released, I believe it to
> be tuesday, february 13th. Before they blew up? How about "Vocab" verse
> by Wyclef which definitly got my attention with his delivery. Yes, I'm
> talking before Lauryn had feminine style and Vogue appeal when she still
> rocked extensions, baggy jeans, and skullies; Praz had his meatchops and
> wyclef was pure Haitian descendant ( not that he isn't still ).
>
I might have you beat.... I bought the album without hearing *any*
cuts, and before the remixes were dropped, because Praz'a picture
on the cover looked just like a friend of mine from college.
A silly reason to buy an album, I admit, but sometimes the impulse
buys can lead you to hidden gems...
The Fugees first album had weak production, but they showed promise.,
especially on the acoustic version of "Vocab" and the cut
"Some Seek Stardom" (Lauryn used a little of "Moody's Mood for Love".
They have not significantly changed their topics from their first
album at all.
> Yes, commercial success is killing Hip Hop.
>
> If indeed, the Fugees were what Hip Hop needed, then why are we still
> dealing with the same garbage recycled from album to album. If
> indeed the Fugees were as instrumental as you say, we wouldn't have
> all bought a half-quality, garbage-content Nas album, nor a extremely
> pop-flavored De La album. "The Score" would have set precedents for
> all of these albums to follow, changing Hip Hop's momentum back to
> skills, beats, and rhymes, rather than blatant materialism. Of
> which it did none, besides giving pop radio a set of remakes to
> overplay for a sucession of months to follow.
>
That's like saying, "if brussel sprouts are nutritious, why don't more
little kids eat more of them?" Just because something is good for
the genre doesn't mean everyone will fall in line.
True, pop radio latched onto "killing me Softly." But is that the
decision of the Rec. Execs, or of the group?
Masta Ase, on his last two labums, has had similar songs, where he
puts a female voice over a familiar hip-hop beat. On "Sittin' On
Chrome," he had a song that used Roy Ayers "The Sunshine." No one
considered him a sell-out, because the rec.execs didn't release it
for mass-consumption.
As such, the Fugees did not dilute their creative efforts to cater
to the masses. Both remakes are of quality songs, and fit well
into the theme of the album.
>
> You actually believe the Fugees had made commercially acceptable for artists to be accountable? Nas, Tupac, Dre, Wu, and a slieu of others.
> When, where, and who has ever put them in check on their content? The
> Fugees? Please, the day the battle ensues between the former and the
latter, we'll see two men and a baby stripped naked and homeless on the
> streets of New York.
I agree that the Fugees are not the best when it comes to battlerap. But,
the Fugees have raised the standard of talent in the hip-hop genre,
IMO. Their live tour with the Roots and Goodie MOb is regarded by
many to be the best tour in years.
>
> I wreckonize "The Score" for what it was; an averagely written, poorly
> produced album engineered by Columbia/Sony calculated for a release
> when Hip Hop was in a very stale period.
>
I find the variety of beats and topics to be quite refreshing. Many
have called it a more adult hip-hop album. Although I agree that
Pras kind of slows them down...
> Bahamadia would tear Lauryn up anyways. . . . .
>
Bahamadia is a capable wordsmith. I bought her CD. But, I
don't think she has anything that can touch Lauryn's verse on
"Manifest" (which IMO is the tightest cut on the album).
Oliver Wang
Naw...Chad, I can't feel you on your criticism. I had the album two
weeks before the street date...and I did NOT expect to like it. It
caught me by surprise and I supported it on the basis of the album's
quality. A diamond in the rough? Provided, early 1996 wasn't exactly
rolling in good albums, but at the time, I was probably still bumping
Pharcyde's and KRS' LPs. Plus, how often to albums get releaed in the
midst of other great albums? It happens, but not that often.
BTW, I never noticed Wyclef getting edited out...I've heard "Killing Me
Softly" on a station out here that plays soul music, not hip hop, and
they leave in Wyclef going, "One time...", "Two time..."
In any case, I reread what I wrote and there's one area that might have
caused confusion. What I meant to say was that even though the Fugees
are selling six million+, they're album is actually GOOD. I'm not
suggesting that the album is selling so well b/c the it's good...no,
the industry doesn't reward quality really. But if it's going to sell
a gazillion units, at least it's a good album, one that I'm definitely
not ashamed to have in my collection.
I do disagree with the last person though...Wyclef is good, but he's
not THAT good. On par with Nas? Folks from the Wu? Not in my
opinion. Lauryn can hold her own though with a lot more lyricists.
Peace,
O
Greg Skinner
In article <APC&1'0'9950aadd'1...@igc.apc.org>,
Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>BTW, I never noticed Wyclef getting edited out...I've heard "Killing Me
>Softly" on a station out here that plays soul music, not hip hop, and
>they leave in Wyclef going, "One time...", "Two time..."
Do you listen to 98.9 KSOL? I have heard Wyclef's voice edited out on
KSOL, but not on KMEL or Wild 107. Personally, I don't see the point;
there is another R&B song called "All About You" by Asante that
includes a rap -- someone who sounds like Biggie saying "Make it hot,
make it hot."
--gregbo
Chimezie Thomas-Ogbuji
Chad Scovile wrote:
> A few additional comments. . . .
>
> Lyrically, production aspects, "The Score" wasn't even close to all that. Point blank, plain and simple, the Hip Hop collective was looking
> for a diamond in the rough. What had been released pre-February?
> Nothing at all since November's "Liquid Swords". Praz and Wyclef
> can't stand, blink, or even light candles near the likes of say Nas,
> KRS, Wu's grandmasters, or even Rakim for that matter. Now tell me why
> they deserve to sell six million while the former can barely hit gold?
>
> Fugee's were pimped, played, and hustled by their label. Notice how
> when "Killing Me Softly" is played on pop radio, Wyclef's voice is
> edited out? Why is that? Look for an easy R&B flavor and a definite
> Columbia/Sony influence on their material. Depending on the logistics
> of their contract, they'll either re-negotitate, or re-sign with another
> label. No doubt Fugees will be pushed for Lauryn acapellas and swoonin'
> vocals backed by want-to-be hard-hittin drum chops. The money-making
> formula is there, present and accounted for.
>
> -----------------
> Chad K. Scoville
> Intel Corporation
> csco...@scdt.intel.com
I don't think your giving "The Score" enough credit, and that might be because you bought it AFTER they blew up. I LOVED the score
from the first day I bought it (when it was first released), because it is a great conceptual album. The album parodies the riduculous
images that todays hop hop artists push. Theyre one of the few groups (besides dala) to take the risk of exposing hip hop artists for
what they seem to be todays: young, money thirsty, and indifferent to they effect they are having on todays youth? Did you even listen
to the interlude. The interlude pretty much layed out the purpose and concept of the album. Don't let their success fool you, or go to
your head (like it might theirs), the fugees were what hip hop needed.
Shoot, the've SINGLE HANDEDLY make it acceptable (commercially) for rap artists to hold each other accountable, something DELA COULDN'T
DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And lyrically, with the likes of the guest stars the had on THE SCORE and COWBOYS, and not to mention lauryn AND wyclef (yes most peaple
still sleep on wyclefs lyrics), I think the album can hold it's own lyrically with the likes of Wu and Nas.
Peace
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chimezie Thomas-Ogbuji | phone: 216-433-4000
NASA Lewis Research Center |
Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: edc...@aladdin.lerc.nasa.gov
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chad Scovile
In article <4slboa$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, khari...@aol.com (KhariSamps) writes:
|> In article <4sj5hg$f...@scnews.sc.intel.com>, csco...@cad706.sc.intel.com
|> (Chad Scovile) writes:
|>
|> >Lyrically, production aspects, "The Score" wasn't even close to all that.
|> >Point blank, plain and simple, the Hip Hop collective was looking
|> >for a diamond in the rough. What had been released pre-February?
|> >Nothing at all since November's "Liquid Swords". Praz and Wyclef
|> >can't stand, blink, or even light candles near the likes of say Nas,
|> >KRS, Wu's grandmasters, or even Rakim for that matter. Now tell me why
|> >they deserve to sell six million while the former can barely hit gold?
|> >
|> >
|>
|> world today, who are mostly kicking the same BS rhymes about blunts, sex,
|> and street crime (yeahyeah, I know--it's "reality." What the fuck ever).
|> For daring to come so different and doing it well is *alone* reason enough
|> for their deserved success.
|>
|> Heck, that's why Wu-Tang was so successful. They came with a new,
|> different sound (unusual, highly original production) that rap needed
|> badly. On the other hand, as good as Illmatic was, it wasn't all that
|> inventive in its subject matter or production. Consider it a highwater
|> mark in the standard hip hop of '94.
|>
|> The Score might've gone gold anyway. It's a strong album. As it
|> happened, the fickle pop audience ate up the R&B single.
|>
|> KJS
|> R&B Hata
|>
Props for wreckonizing "Enter the 36. . . " importance, or at least to
some manifest degree.
On "Illmatic", I disagree. Hip Hop contents central aspect is life,
and how people live it. Writing always has, and always will focus on
life.
Unless an emcee comes correct with a completely different view on life,
abstract or realitivistically influenced, writing and content will
always be judged on how good imagery, alliteration, and the summation
of verbal tools used in verbal discourse can be invoked in lyrics. Nas's
writing is a ideal example of this, and in that, I have yet to hear
a writer who can paint a picture using strict wordplay like him. That
is why "Illmatic" was such a pivotal album and indeed a classic.
Chad Scovile
In article <31EE3C...@aladdin.lerc.nasa.gov>, Chimezie Thomas-Ogbuji <edc...@aladdin.lerc.nasa.gov> writes:
|> Chad Scovile wrote:
|>
|> > A few additional comments. . . .
|> >
|> > Lyrically, production aspects, "The Score" wasn't even close to all that. Point blank, plain and simple, the Hip Hop collective was looking
|> > for a diamond in the rough. What had been released pre-February?
|> > Nothing at all since November's "Liquid Swords". Praz and Wyclef
|> > can't stand, blink, or even light candles near the likes of say Nas,
|> > KRS, Wu's grandmasters, or even Rakim for that matter. Now tell me why
|> > they deserve to sell six million while the former can barely hit gold?
|> >
|> > Fugee's were pimped, played, and hustled by their label. Notice how
|> > when "Killing Me Softly" is played on pop radio, Wyclef's voice is
|> > edited out? Why is that? Look for an easy R&B flavor and a definite
|> > Columbia/Sony influence on their material. Depending on the logistics
|> > of their contract, they'll either re-negotitate, or re-sign with another
|> > label. No doubt Fugees will be pushed for Lauryn acapellas and swoonin'
|> > vocals backed by want-to-be hard-hittin drum chops. The money-making
|> > formula is there, present and accounted for.
|> >
|> > -----------------
|> > Chad K. Scoville
|> > Intel Corporation
|> > csco...@scdt.intel.com
|>
|>
|>
|> from the first day I bought it (when it was first released), because it is a great conceptual album. The album parodies the riduculous
|> images that todays hop hop artists push. Theyre one of the few groups (besides dala) to take the risk of exposing hip hop artists for
|> what they seem to be todays: young, money thirsty, and indifferent to they effect they are having on todays youth? Did you even listen
|> to the interlude. The interlude pretty much layed out the purpose and concept of the album. Don't let their success fool you, or go to
|> your head (like it might theirs), the fugees were what hip hop needed.
|>
|> Shoot, the've SINGLE HANDEDLY make it acceptable (commercially) for rap artists to hold each other accountable, something DELA COULDN'T
|> DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|>
|> And lyrically, with the likes of the guest stars the had on THE SCORE and COWBOYS, and not to mention lauryn AND wyclef (yes most peaple
|> still sleep on wyclefs lyrics), I think the album can hold it's own lyrically with the likes of Wu and Nas.
|>
|>
|> Peace
|>
|> --
|>
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Chimezie Thomas-Ogbuji | phone: 216-433-4000
|> NASA Lewis Research Center |
|> Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: edc...@aladdin.lerc.nasa.gov
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Head to head. . . . . . .
Firstly, I bought "The Score" the day it was released, I believe it to
be tuesday, february 13th. Before they blew up? How about "Vocab" verse
by Wyclef which definitly got my attention with his delivery. Yes, I'm
talking before Lauryn had feminine style and Vogue appeal when she still
rocked extensions, baggy jeans, and skullies; Praz had his meatchops and
wyclef was pure Haitian descendant ( not that he isn't still ).
Speaking of parodies, what has the entire Native Tongues been doing in effect since their creation? Backlashing against the image of emcees as
all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing beings and acknowledging their
humanist level. Furthermore, the entire concept of accountability
follows up with rhyme ciphers and battling emcees; Hip Hop origins.
Again, something Hip Hop has forgotten with the onslaught of *new* listeners who neither know the history, nor care to learn.
Yes, commercial success is killing Hip Hop.
If indeed, the Fugees were what Hip Hop needed, then why are we still
dealing with the same garbage recycled from album to album. If
indeed the Fugees were as instrumental as you say, we wouldn't have
all bought a half-quality, garbage-content Nas album, nor a extremely
pop-flavored De La album. "The Score" would have set precedents for
all of these albums to follow, changing Hip Hop's momentum back to
skills, beats, and rhymes, rather than blatant materialism. Of
which it did none, besides giving pop radio a set of remakes to
overplay for a sucession of months to follow.
Needles to say, Kris Parker has been speaking on emcee accountability since "Criminal Minded".
You actually believe the Fugees had made commercially acceptable for artists to be accountable? Nas, Tupac, Dre, Wu, and a slieu of others.
When, where, and who has ever put them in check on their content? The
Fugees? Please, the day the battle ensues between the former and the latter, we'll see two men and a baby stripped naked and homeless on the
streets of New York.
If you want to measure up, does anyone think "The Score" could even
come close to compare to "Illmatic" or "Enter the 36. ."? Never,
no-thanks, no-way.
I wreckonize "The Score" for what it was; an averagely written, poorly
produced album engineered by Columbia/Sony calculated for a release
when Hip Hop was in a very stale period.
Bahamadia would tear Lauryn up anyways. . . . .
-----------------
KhariSamps
>Lyrically, production aspects, "The Score" wasn't even close to all that.
>Point blank, plain and simple, the Hip Hop collective was looking
>for a diamond in the rough. What had been released pre-February?
>Nothing at all since November's "Liquid Swords". Praz and Wyclef
>can't stand, blink, or even light candles near the likes of say Nas,
>KRS, Wu's grandmasters, or even Rakim for that matter. Now tell me why
>they deserve to sell six million while the former can barely hit gold?
>
>
The Fugees are coming from a different perspective than 80% of the rap
God360
Man, you're jocking Nas so much you're not even reading what people are
posting. the man said Nas didn't have "original subject matter" which is
100% true. Every song on "Illmatic" touched on a topic that had been done
and overdone. I mean, come on, rapping about a homie in prison ("One
Love")? You can buy 5 out of every 10 West Coast albums and hear one track
on the same subject. "Halftime" could've been a freestyle, there wasn't
even a conceptual reason to call it "Halftime". "It Ain't Hard to Tell",
ditto. "Represent"? How the fuck you gonna name a song "Represent" when in
that year everybody and his fucking mama in NY was using that cliche ass
word. That's like me naming my album "Keep it Real". What the fuck. Nas,
as a songwriter (meaning someone who writes songs ON SUBJECTS) is as
original as Coolio's last single.
Fuck peace...
Soljah
God360
What????? Fugees lost their street credibility??? Did you see THE SIZE OF
THE CROWD at Hoodshock RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF HARLEM??? Hell, no, they
didn't lose their street credibility. Chad, what the f*ck are you talking
about?
God360
I should kill you for liking "Family Matters".
"Opinions are like assholes...they stink. SO fuck 'em."
God360
ya posted...
""Enter the 36. ." as being FAR superior to the Score...
What??? What lyrical topics were explored on Enter the 36. Besides
"Tearz", did any of their songs have any subject matter? Isn't it true
that the Wu (ESPECIALLY ODB and Meth) rap endlessly about nothing and the
Rza's production is the only thing original about them? While the Fugees
have songs like "Mista Mista" about homelessness, "Cowboys" about
gun-crazy MCs and triggerhappy youth in general, plus they flip the ill
tight live production (Diamond D's track "The Score" is
un-fucking-touchable, what?!). Man, you're sick. Another damn Wu-Rider...
Oliver Wang
Damn, looks like God460 is the anti-Illmatic2. Sh*t is heating up here
on rmhh...*laugh* Grab your virtual vests and take the safeties off your
keyboards.
Anyway...couple o' comments...
Re: Masta Ace Inc. and the last album-Gotta disagree with Keynote on this
one. A LOT of people called that album a sell-out, especially since
Ase himself said he tried to tailor it to sell more. Nothing wrong
with that necessarily except, personally, I couldn't stomach that
"Sittin on Chrome" bullsh*t. The song you're talking about "Turn It
Up" WAS slated for commercial release. "Top Ten List" was the B-side
to that single, but I hear legal problems doomed the single. But, most
definitely, Delicious Vinyl intended to release the single in some fashion.
Re: Killing Me Softly and editing out Wyclef. I did hear the song on
KSOL, and I'm pretty sure they left him in when I heard it...maybe I
just imagined it (when you hear a song 100,000 times, you tend to hear
it even when you don't...know what I mean?)
Re: Nas and the Wu Tang. I wouldn't say their subject matter is
original...in fact, original SUBJECT matter is a bit hard to find
nowadays...what can you talk about that hasn't been talked about?
Genetics research? (Oops, I guess "Clones" dealt with that...)
Seriously though, what makes Nas and the Wu tight is lyrical
style, not subject matter necessarily. It's not so much talking about
something new, it's the way in which you talk about it. "One Love"
covered old ground, certainly, but how many verses like the last one do
you hear in almost any one else's joints? East or West?
Peace,
O
Trey Harris
On 19 Jul 1996, Chad Scovile wrote:
> In article <APC&1'0'9950aadd'1...@igc.apc.org>, Oliver Wang
> <ol...@igc.apc.org> writes:
> |> Naw...Chad, I can't feel you on your criticism. I had the album two
> |> weeks before the street date...and I did NOT expect to like it.
This is interesting. I bought "Blunted on Reality" solely on the
"Nappy Heads (rmx)" which was, of course, not on the album. Mad as I was,
I continued to listen and peeped this tight track called "Vocab".
Admittedly, the rest wasn't GREAT, but I liked it because it was unique.
I was excited for "The Score" to come out and I wasn't
disappointed. Ollie is right. Just because MTV & your local pop station
beat it to death, doesn't mean it's not good. Sure, I don't want to hear
"Killing Me Softly" ever again (by Roberta, Al B. or Lauryn), but there
are some GREAT tracks on that album.
> |> In any case, I reread what I wrote and there's one area that might have
> |> caused confusion. What I meant to say was that even though the Fugees
> |> are selling six million+, they're album is actually GOOD. I'm not
> |> suggesting that the album is selling so well b/c the it's good...no,
> |> the industry doesn't reward quality really. But if it's going to sell
> |> a gazillion units, at least it's a good album, one that I'm definitely
> |> not ashamed to have in my collection.
So I guess it's true..."Real headz" are hesitant to include any
album that gets radio airplay, despite quality...that's sad.
> |> I do disagree with the last person though...Wyclef is good, but he's
> |> not THAT good. On par with Nas? Folks from the Wu? Not in my
> |> opinion. Lauryn can hold her own though with a lot more lyricists.
> i would hesistate before i would call wyclef good, and let's admit it
> that without lauryn the fugees would not be nearly where they are now
Chad, Ollie- Here's where we part company. OK, Wyclef may not be
on a level with Nas and SOME Wu-Tang members (i.e. RZA, GZA, Killah
Priest, Master Killa) but he's VERY underrated. Plus, he's the soul of
the group, the hype man. I'll concede that Lauryn is steps ahead, but
Wyclef is very unique.
Peace,
_____________________________________________________________________________
*** Trey *** *** John F. Harris,III *** *** Marbles ***
E-MAIL - jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
"I'm so low-key, that you might not see me; incognito & taking it easy" RAKIM
Chad Scovile
In article <APC&1'0'9950aadd'1...@igc.apc.org>, Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> Naw...Chad, I can't feel you on your criticism. I had the album two
|> caught me by surprise and I supported it on the basis of the album's
|> quality. A diamond in the rough? Provided, early 1996 wasn't exactly
|> rolling in good albums, but at the time, I was probably still bumping
|> Pharcyde's and KRS' LPs. Plus, how often to albums get releaed in the
|> midst of other great albums? It happens, but not that often.
|>
|> Softly" on a station out here that plays soul music, not hip hop, and
|> they leave in Wyclef going, "One time...", "Two time..."
|>
|> caused confusion. What I meant to say was that even though the Fugees
|> are selling six million+, they're album is actually GOOD. I'm not
|> suggesting that the album is selling so well b/c the it's good...no,
|> the industry doesn't reward quality really. But if it's going to sell
|> a gazillion units, at least it's a good album, one that I'm definitely
|> not ashamed to have in my collection.
|>
|> not THAT good. On par with Nas? Folks from the Wu? Not in my
|> opinion. Lauryn can hold her own though with a lot more lyricists.
|>
|>
|> O
|>
|>
i would hesistate before i would call wyclef good, and let's admit it
that without lauryn the fugees would not be nearly where they are now
-----------------
Trey Harris
Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>Re: Nas and the Wu Tang. I wouldn't say their subject matter is
>original...in fact, original SUBJECT matter is a bit hard to find
>nowadays...what can you talk about that hasn't been talked about?
>Genetics research? (Oops, I guess "Clones" dealt with that...)
> Seriously though, what makes Nas and the Wu tight is lyrical
>style, not subject matter necessarily. It's not so much talking about
>something new, it's the way in which you talk about it. "One Love"
>covered old ground, certainly, but how many verses like the last one do
>you hear in almost any one else's joints? East or West?
Very true. The "Italiano-Mafioso" style that's been discussed
would be alright with me, but it seems like I've heard the same verse
from Foxxy Brown in every track she's been on. Lil Kim, too. For the
most part, I don't care what an MC is talking about, as long as it's
unique, original & entertaining. Hell, what was DAS EFX talking about on
"They Want EFX"? Absolutely nothing but nonsense...but those were some
of the freshest rhymes to hit and with a new style.
To quote the DOC..."Originality is a must...".
Peace,
PJUF
chad scoville said:
Notice how the winning formula for a record is now 7/8 Hip Hop, 1/8 wack
i beg to differ, that song you are reffering to is intended to poke fun or
satirize that same formula. if you recall the intro to that song, with the
dude, oh theres that bullshit again, they playing themselves....etc. thats
what they are saying. its an r&b bitch over a bullshit track with a
rhyme...thats what de la is saying. its a joke.
eurok...
r&b that shits for saps.
just a bitch that raps...
eurokerism: the best selling novel.
http://www.students.haverford.edu/purquill
hewesy
Chad.
After reading your criticisms on the Fugees joint, I cant help but think
that success,...ANY success that allows a bonafide crew to be heard is
worthwhile. The kneejerk reaction to tag them as "sellouts" is tired and
a little unimaginative. Fairplay to them, the album is good enough to
sell the millions it has done in the U.S. as it has done overhere, in
England. Other albums, such as the Wu's and Smooth da Hustlers have sold
loads too and those lads have never bastardized any material for the sake
of the sale. And it's worked, in this country they are gods. And
rightfully so.
Sorry if I have caused any offence, mate, it's just my opinion.
Cheerz,
Hewesy
Trey Harris
"Matt Koidin" <ma...@gen.camb.inmet.com> wrote:
>> This is interesting. I bought "Blunted on Reality" solely on the
>> "Nappy Heads (rmx)" which was, of course, not on the album. Mad as I
>was,
>> I continued to listen and peeped this tight track called "Vocab".
>> Admittedly, the rest wasn't GREAT, but I liked it because it was unique.
>>
>
>second side... Maybe the CD is different?
>
>--the CracKHeAd
>
I'm not sure what the CD has. I bought the tape, too. But I bought
it very soon after it's iniial release, before "Vocab" was released as a
single. That had to be between the summer & fall of 94. Maybe they
re-released the album with the remix on it.
Peace,
the guru
On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Matt Koidin wrote:
> I got the Blunted tape and the Nappy Heads (rmx) is the last song on the
> second side... Maybe the CD is different?
track... by the way i don't think it's just unique. the first fugees
album is great.
JJHEN1
I'm a fan of the Wu and I totally agree that their lyrics do not mean
much. However, why should their lyrics mean anything? Their style was new
with all the martial arts references (although didn't Fu Schnickens do
something similar a lot earlier with the martial arts thing??) and it is
not very often that you get 8 people together for a very successful debut
album who are still together today.
I am yet to hear much of Nas except for his part on Raekwon's album and
his new single "If I ruled the World" which I quite liked.
JC
Me
God360 wrote:
>
> ya posted...
>
> ""Enter the 36. ." as being FAR superior to the Score...
>
> What??? What lyrical topics were explored on Enter the 36. Besides
> "Tearz", did any of their songs have any subject matter? Isn't it true
> that the Wu (ESPECIALLY ODB and Meth) rap endlessly about nothing and the
Amen....I have no idea why everyone loves Wu-Tang....they ain't smooth,
their lyrics are meaningless....Fugees has them beat pretty easily...
Matt Koidin
> This is interesting. I bought "Blunted on Reality" solely on the
> "Nappy Heads (rmx)" which was, of course, not on the album. Mad as I
was,
> I continued to listen and peeped this tight track called "Vocab".
> Admittedly, the rest wasn't GREAT, but I liked it because it was unique.
>
I got the Blunted tape and the Nappy Heads (rmx) is the last song on the
second side... Maybe the CD is different?
--the CracKHeAd
PhatMan
>> Fugees popularity will subside, and seeing how they've already lost
>> their street credibility with the onset of their material to pop radio,
>> they're careers will probably follow.
Word...But it's not just about street credibility, it all boils down to what you can originally call
Hip-Hop music. It is not R&B singing with some semi-wack MC (Pras) coming in with some bullshit
verse. Forget it...They weren't all that good in the first place...
Has anyone noticed that when L-Boogie (Lauryn Hill) is stressed for a rhyme she starts dragging it out
with some bullshit R&B type singing...Heh.
>Hmm...I'm not ready to call that same fate on the Fugees... Their street
>credibility will rest, I think, on their NEXT album or future efforts.
>Other artists who have lost street credibility in the past, have tended
>to lose it b/c they came out wack. Big Daddy Kane is a good example.
>Special Ed anyone? MC Lyte, even RunDMC. Others just lose it b/c
>everyone forgets them: Rakim.
Special Ed came pretty hard at us. He had a non-commercial appeal approach and that had most of
the market scared. His album busted because:
1. It wasn't polished enough. "Neva Go Back" had some real lyrics, and Special Ed caught
straight wreck, period.
2. No big commercialized track with a well-known commercialized producer. You think
his album sales would have been better if two of his tracks were produced by Sean "Puffy"
Combs, Dr. Dre, or the Trackmasters?
>> Notice how the winning formula for a record is now 7/8 Hip Hop, 1/8
>> wack R&B. Even De La succumbed to this.
Maybe..
>True indeed, though I thought "Baby, Baby..." was some what of a mocking
>send up on this whole trend.
Perhapzzzz...
PhatMan...
http://users.southeast.net/~damon/
Uche Ogbuji
>I do disagree with the last person though...Wyclef is good, but he's
>not THAT good. On par with Nas? Folks from the Wu? Not in my
>opinion. Lauryn can hold her own though with a lot more lyricists.
I would expect more from you, sir, because you are one of the most
perceptive headz in this group, but for some reason, you have decided
to take, vis-a-vis Wyclef, the standard rookie challenge of "can he
battle like X, or freestyle like Y" Remember that Hip Hop must evolve
to survive, and in an overall sense, I do believe Wyclef is as good
a hip-hopper as Nas or any of the Wu Clan. He doesn't have the
lyrics of GZA, Ghostface or Nas, or the flow of Meth or Rae, but he
plays musical instruments, which is more than any of the above do.
This alone makes him valuable to hip-hop because it means he can
take it in a wider variety of directions than the others can, which the
Score aptly demonstrated. Between the dark mania of Family Business,
the raucous jaunt of "No Woman", and the goddam-I'm-exasperated
feel of "The Beast", he showed a dizzying range which might be
a little eclectic for purist headz, but is the door to hip-hop's future.
You also must consider that Wyclef has more live rock-the-stage skills
than any of the other lyricists you are championing, and what is hip-hop
about, if not rocking the park?
--Uche
Uche Ogbuji
Man, I like Nas, but Soljah has some good points, yo!
This thread has really surprised me. I have always felt that the most
creative groups in hip-hop are: De La (first off), The Roots,
The Fugees, Pharcyde, Hiero, Wu-Tang, Gangstarr, Tribe Called Quest,...
And going back, Ultramagnetic, Jungle Brothers, Melle Mel, Eric B & Rakim,
Kool G Rap (and Polo, I guess), Public Enemy, etc.
There have been better lyricists than the above, better cypher-rockers,
etc., but in terms of coming with different styles and innovations track
after track on a single album, not to mention over several, Hip-hop
lacks the improvisational depth of, say, Jazz, which is why it is
sad to see the Fugees so underrated just because they sell albums
now. Imagine if Bird had been judged the same way? Would it have
encouraged Miles, Rollins, Turrentine, Ponder, Lateef, etc?
--Uche
the guru
On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Trey Harris wrote:
> single. That had to be between the summer & fall of 94. Maybe they
> re-released the album with the remix on it.
the nappy heads remix is there though.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
PhatMan wrote:
>
> >> Fugees popularity will subside, and seeing how they've already lost
> >> their street credibility with the onset of their material to pop radio,
> >> they're careers will probably follow.
>
> Word...But it's not just about street credibility, it all boils down to what you can originally call
> Hip-Hop music. It is not R&B singing with some semi-wack MC (Pras) coming in with some bullshit
> verse. Forget it...They weren't all that good in the first place...
I'm not trying to call either Pras, Wyclef or Ms. Hill the second comming
in the area of Hip-Hop lyricist BUT, they do produce a nice blend of Hip-Hop
and R&B that doesen't insult fans of either following. They have already
made it clear that they are more than capable of evolving with the times in
order to keep their material as a group up to par.
Their live show is also DAMN good as well.
With lyrics on their Hip-Hop motivated joints that are on point and creative,
they have laid a basis for some really innovative stuff witout falling victim
to the "down syndrome". (couldn't help it, theat DeLa song won't leave my head!)
By having someone that is DAMN good at singing almost any type of song
she wants to, they have made it possible to make R&B motivated songs that
are not the same as the copy cat punch out groups we've become acustomed
to over the years.
I think if they keep evolving, they will not dissapoint and possibly surprise
us in the future. ONLY if they keep it together creativly and as a group
can this happen. Individually, they would fad(e) away quickly.
> >True indeed, though I thought "Baby, Baby..." was some what of a mocking
> >send up on this whole trend.
>
> Perhapzzzz...
"Perhapzzzz"?!?!?!?!?!
What, you didn't get the joke?
Think back to "Kicked out the House" on "Dead" and then you'll understand the
intent behind the song.
Later...
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
KhariSamps
In article <4t3crh$10...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, molinah@ (Uche Ogbuji)
writes:
>This thread has really surprised me. I have always felt that the most
>creative groups in hip-hop are: De La (first off), The Roots,
>The Fugees, Pharcyde, Hiero, Wu-Tang, Gangstarr, Tribe Called Quest,...
>And going back, Ultramagnetic, Jungle Brothers, Melle Mel, Eric B &
Rakim,
>Kool G Rap (and Polo, I guess), Public Enemy, etc.
>
>
This is a GREAT list. The more hip hop in general begins to look like
this, the better it will become...
KJS