Sole vs. Elpee
Felix433
I've been listening to the real audio of this new sole cut called "Dear
Elpee", and i was wondering why no one was talking about this. seriously, sole
talks a gang of shit, and its dope. i think elpee is fairly overrated, and i
never really dug sole before, but i'm pretty sure he would rip elpee in this
battle (if it ever goes down). the only thing is, i only have the real audio,
and its kind of hard to make out all the lyrics. but regardless, sole goes for
the the gut, and hits. he calls out elpee on numerous issues, blackballing his
record from fat beats, how elpee sounds like a walking dictionary, rawkus and
rupert murdoch, and lots more. he also says elpee is not down to make an
indelibles album, because he's afraid of being outshined (sounds reasonable,
considering j-treads and da brewin). he calls elpee a "hamburger pimp, only out
for the cheddar", and that elpee got his whole style from another underground
rapper. there's a lot more, so if you have real audio, check it out at
http://www.hiphopsite.com/home.html, and go to new joints, its under Anticon
Records Presents or something, and afterward, maybe give a prediction of who
will win.
...aiight chiil...
Tony1er
isn't anything worth listening to (although I know a lot of people like him for
some reason, kinda the same thing with mystik journeymen). I know him and el-p
were cool at some point and then they causght beef.as far as the accusations
made in the song (according to felix) he doesn't sound like he coming with
anything concrete except "walking dictionary" (which is kind of wack to me),
and the personal shit. as far as el-p getting his style from someone else...get
the fuck out of here. who on earth would have , or want that style. not to say
it's wack, but reaaly only el-p can pull it off. el-p's been rhyming for ever.
when he was in 7th grade he was rhyming. anyway, I still wanna hear the song
and I wonder if el-p will even respond.
later tony
Wise Rebel
(Tony1er) writes:
>I'd be curious to hear that.
I doubt you'll be impressed is pretty weak. Sole has no mic presense.
On top of that he calls El P a wigger. What the hell? It's at hiphopsite.com
"You couldn't get signed if you had a cast on" - Wordsworth
Wise
Felix433
>On top of that he calls El P a wigger. What the hell? It's at hiphopsite.com
>
Did you even listen to the damn thing!? he ripped elpee. the lyrics are
classic. elpee can rip tracks, but is inconsistenet and has less than zero mic
presence. at least sole can rhyme on beat for chrissakes. i doubt elpee is
gonna respond, cuz it'll take him a while to come up w/something to even put a
dent in this sole cut. it's almost 6 minutes long! also, he didn't call elpee
a wigger, he said "remember in boston when you started calling fools out, then
when mc's tried to battle you, you were the first to break out, ...you don't
want to battle of course you want to fight, you're bigger, fine you win we can
have a contest to see ,who's the biggest wigger, oh, you win again." he clowns
him the whiole track though. everybody, check it out at hiphopsite.com in the
new joints, I think.
"I heard you're putting out an instrumental album of sitars, pots, and pans"
"you got a horrible freestyle the rest of your style is studio punch-ins"
"sounding like corky got his nubs on a websters dictionary, or a ras kass
record and a brand new mpc, pressing all them pretty buttons, making wack
beats"
"well timed marketing scheme, its cool to be independent, but if it was last
year you'd be a dun or a missy elliot"
"i'm a hip-hop artist, you style-biting mc sucker , had a crayon contest for
retarded kids to pick that wack ass album cover"
those are a few choice cuts, but the whole song is dope. so if you're a bit
dissillusioned as to why co-flow is so popular (like i am), i think you will
probably like it. if you ride their jock, its probably best to stay away from
it.
DJLilE
crews... no body here really likes Sole... not sure why, I like his stuff but
his delivery or shall I say flow is what turns alot of people off... you may be
one of the only kids to say his shit is nice, but you'll see alot of people
here post that they don't like it and think it's garbage.... stick to your guns
bro and don't pay no mind to all these so called 'hip hop experts'
peace............................E
NazDak27
Hiphop Experts? What makes any of us experts? Hell no. Maybe *these* people
think they're experts, but I'm not, and neither are they. I, personally, think
El-P is wack as shit, and I cant wait for him to *Attempt* to make a comeback,
so sole can shit on him again. Sole, if youre reading this, your my fuckin
dog! Piss on El-Pee.
Peace,
NazDak
"My split personality is having an Identity crisis"--Slim Shady
Supernews User
Come on, none of you liked Funcrusher? That shit was very unique and
innovative.
And Sole's new single is really tight. Especially that 3rd Person song.
-**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****-
http://www.supernews.com/ - Host to the the World's Discussions & Usenet
Wise Rebel
(DJLilE) writes:
>hey felix you got to realize something... this newsgroup like to hate alot on
>crews... no body here really likes Sole...
Hate on Sole? Huh?
Wise Rebel
(Felix433) writes:
>also, he didn't call elpee a wigger, he said "remember in boston when
>you started calling fools out, then when mc's tried to battle you, you were
>the first to break out, ...you don't want to battle of course you want to
fight,
>you're bigger, fine you win we can have a contest to see ,who's the biggest
>wigger, oh, you win again."
That's not calling him a wigger?
>those are a few choice cuts, but the whole song is dope. so if you're a bit
>dissillusioned as to why co-flow is so popular (like i am), i think you will
>probably like it. if you ride their jock, its probably best to stay away from
it.
I'm not on their jock, it's just Sole is weak. He doesn't move me.
I read a snippet of the lyrics in the newest urb and thought, "oh shit,
someone is ripping El P". The wackest album cover thing was funny.
But this track is not dope. Sole is not dope. He's decent but kinda annoying.
I don't think El P should make a comeback, cause it would probably be
weak also. Unless he got Brewin or J Treds to diss, since they are alot
more clever than Sole IMO.
Insidence
I don't think there are many out there who think El-P is some lyrical
mastermind...I think he sounds good though. His beats are nice though and I
think if you don't like them then its just preference...I don't think you can
say that they aren't quality beats.
Sole is tight too...I think he is a better emcee than El-P. I don't know who
was acting like a dick or what, and personally I don't care. I like both or
their music and hopefully both of them will shine.
Incidence
JONM AYTAC
:
:
: >also, he didn't call elpee a wigger, he said "remember in boston when
: >you started calling fools out, then when mc's tried to battle you, you were
: >the first to break out, ...you don't want to battle of course you want to
: fight,
: >you're bigger, fine you win we can have a contest to see ,who's the biggest
: >wigger, oh, you win again."
:
: That's not calling him a wigger?
cool to me.
Besides, I had to laugh out loud at this shit, and I'm at work. It's pretty
fucking scathing.
"yo he's using big words against me? Yo that's intrepid god"
hahaha
:
: I'm not on their jock, it's just Sole is weak. He doesn't move me.
You probably haven't heard his doper shit. Besides, though the beat isn't
super compelling or anything, Sole demonstrates superior MC'ing on that cut
"I don't try to be off beat I just am" ElP
And yes, I am glad that they made Funcrusher, it's alot of fun.
peace
--
Tony1er
hey felix you got to realize something... this newsgroup like to hate alot on
his delivery or shall I say flow is what turns alot of people off... you may be
one of the only kids to say his shit is nice, but you'll see alot of people
here post that they don't like it and think it's garbage.... stick to your guns
bro and don't pay no mind to all these so called 'hip hop experts'
Hold up. It's not like those of us who don't like sole haven't given him a
chance. he's not that dope. he's not awful but he's nothing special. el-p,
lately has sucked. but there was a time when he was very ill. he used to rhyme
on beat and he used to make fat beats. sole has never been exceptional and as
far as beats, it sounds like he took a lesson from the mystik journeymen.
boring beats. as far as their battle, I am yet to hear the song by sole (doubt
I ever will). those lines were kind of dope but reading them and hearing them
are two totally different things. I think el-p has it in him to burn the kid.
the question remains, will he even give a shit if this (outside of a few
heads) no name from maine (or is it vermont) disses him?
later tony
AlanPage
>classic. elpee can rip tracks, but is inconsistenet and has less than zero
>mic
>presence. at least sole can rhyme on beat for chrissakes
Well, this cat didn't really impress me...I didn't feel the menace I associate
with battle raps...I don't know, I didn't feel his flow and I don't feel you
can "rip" someone if it sounds like you're rapping lying on a bed...I mean,
could he have given me a little energy? Listen to the seething rage on "Hit Em
Up", the intensisty of "South Bronx', that's a ripping...this thing was a nice
concept rap, but battle??? a rhyme to rip someone??? Nah...
>i doubt elpee is
>gonna respond
yeah, what's your rationale for that?
>cuz it'll take him a while to come up w/something to even put a
>dent in this sole cut.
so, lemme see, you think el-pee won't respond because it'll take him too long
to writ a response...nah...there's no statutue of limitations on
battling...Quik and MC Eiht kept it going for years...
> it's almost 6 minutes long!
it should have been 5 minutes shorter.
>he clowns
>him the whiole track though.
lyrically, he clowns...he lacks the mic presence required to rip...it reminds
me of that battle with murs and some white guy somebody sent me...at first,
both of them were boring me with the typical "you're gay, suck my d--k" basic
level battle rhymes, then murs got heated up...i could hear it in his
voice...that's pretty much the point when the other cat got killed IMO, when
MURS started getting heated, plus coming with the ill lyrics
dope lyrics+flow+emotion=dope battle rhyme
Peace,
Spirit
Spread Love/Amphibians
The Amphibians' debut single "Lettuce (Entertain You)" b/w "Journey" will be
available August 9th, on vinyl ($5) and cassettes ($3), add $2 for
shipping/handling. E-mail me for more details...
AlanPage
>crews...
hey, e, does this mean no one can say they don't like a record without "ahting"
on the artist...? I disagree with that...if someone says they don't like my
record, I ask them why. I ask what they liked about it, what they disliked,
what they might have liked to see changed (more bass? less abstract lyrics?
whatever...). I enjoy listening to feedback. How are artists going to improve
without feedback? This is the second thread you've jumped in on talking about
"hating"....can't we all agree that different people have different tastes?
AlanPage
>mastermind..
I disagree...I think there are several people, many people who thinnk El-P is a
lyrical mastermind. I happen to think his lyrics are pretty good.
applesauce
: on beat and he used to make fat beats. sole has never been exceptional and as
: far as beats, it sounds like he took a lesson from the mystik journeymen.
I've only heard his 12", but "Banquet of Sarcasm" and "3 guys in a bar"
have pretty ill beats. The stand up bass on the first mentioned cut rocks
pretty hard actually. Nice little guitar loop on the second. I met the
guy at an Acey show and he was an arrogant fuck, but i think his single is
dope so i bought it. He comes off pretty arrogant on the first one
("don't let my lyrics bother you, just nod your head"), but the story he
tells on the last cut, 3rd person or some shit....it's nice. Talking
about b-boys being lynched in the future and hip hop being illegal....give
that shit a chance. He's kinda corny at times, but on the whole his 12"
made me laugh quite a few times. Nutty stuff.
I don't know if either one of them can battle, but i'd put my money on
El-p in a live confrontation. He'd be sure to spit some crazy one liners
to get everybody to say "oh shit!", and he'd most likely have more fans
(due to popularity).
respectfully,
applesauce
---------->This has been a Greasy Kid Inc. production.<------------
"I bet your mother's husband rocks a purse"
-------Motion Man
soft...@my-dejanews.com
feli...@aol.com (Felix433) wrote:
Soft duck will take out both dem suckas...ducks.
Elpee - Soft Duck wrote all her rhymes for Funcrusher Plus. She is such a
sucka it's not funny.
Sole - I busted his Maine Ass when I broke out in Freestyle.
I crush both dem soundbwoys.
Duck.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ba...@home.com
alan...@aol.com (AlanPage) wrote:
> >I don't think there are many out there who think El-P is some lyrical
> >mastermind..
>
> I disagree...I think there are several people, many people who thinnk El-P is
a
> lyrical mastermind. I happen to think his lyrics are pretty good.
Although I don't own a Company Flow album, I do own compilations with their
work and have heard El-P plenty of times. Kid sounds nice.
--
One Love,
Terry Malko
'A rich man is one with knowledge, happiness and his health'
--Com
Mathew Chakko
>
>(Tony1er) writes:
>
>>I'd be curious to hear that.
>
>On top of that he calls El P a wigger. What the hell? It's at hiphopsite.com
This is the first time I've heard Sole (hehe, I used to confused Live Poets
with Last Poets...LOL).
At first I thought his voice was weak, but he really does El P a number here.
This is pretty solid IMO.
******************************************************************
* Mathew Chakko http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~mchakko *
* The B-Boy scientist with the High IQ *
* mchakkowhat???@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu.chump *
* To email delete the two obviously falsely inserted bits in *
* the address (What??? Chump.) *
* *
* Rubble becomes structure from the beauty of confusion *
* Alchemy: heal your pain with art, learn to use it - El-P *
******************************************************************
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
alan...@aol.com (AlanPage) wrote:
> > the lyrics are
> >classic. elpee can rip tracks, but is inconsistenet and has less than zero
> >mic
> >presence. at least sole can rhyme on beat for chrissakes
>
> Well, this cat didn't really impress me...I didn't feel the menace I associate
> with battle raps...I don't know, I didn't feel his flow and I don't feel you
> can "rip" someone if it sounds like you're rapping lying on a bed...I mean,
> could he have given me a little energy? Listen to the seething rage on "Hit Em
> Up", the intensisty of "South Bronx', that's a ripping...
Hit em up is a ripping? what? that song was beyond wack. He did all his
dissing between the verses, just yelling out random shit, he couldn't even be
bothered to write lyrics? Dude sounded like a fucking 5 year old on that
song. and calling out that cat for having sickle cell was weak. If this is
your example of a dope battle song... I'll give you the seething rage part,
but i'm sure my grandma gets salty too, that don't make her a dope battler
btw i haven;t heard this sole song, so i don't know if you're right about that
or not
...nesta...
____________________________________________________
Most of you can't understand what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
_____________________________________________________
Wildcat
>>I don't think there are many out there who think El-P is some lyrical
>>mastermind..
>
>I disagree...I think there are several people, many people who thinnk El-P is a
>lyrical mastermind. I happen to think his lyrics are pretty good.
>
>Spirit
Yeah El-P's lyrics are original and creative. I can see if some people
don't like how he goes off beat (even though its never been a problem
for me) most of the time its not that he goes off the beat that much,
the beat is just crazy. The only song I didn't like is Krazy Kings
Too, but since it was a B side I think they just did it as a throw
away track. I think some people don't like him due to what he says, i
think they dont understand his references or the words he uses. Like
"Fucking with your theology like Darwinism in the Bible Belt" first
time i heard that i had to hit rewind, but different people like
different things no big deal.
What did Co Flow do in the End to End Burners that dissed Sole he
mentions it at the begining of El-pee.
And does anybody know whats up with the whole Big Juss thing some
people say he is taking time off others say he is working on a solo
album.
Wildcat
Wildcat
wrong key, and didn't catch it before I sent it.
Wildcat
nfri...@haverford.edu
decency to take it like a man. sole's intelligent and has a sense of
humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
El-P was one of the first people to get wide exposure coming with
super-abstract (and super-pretentious) styles and beats. that's all.
co-flow filled a desperate void in (the white listner's view of)
hip-hop; they were a picture-perfect NYC-centric vision of the hip-hop
avant-garde. unfortunately, they're shoddy, overblown, and fairly
empty. the fact that there are much doper "advanced" emcees widely
disseminated these days shouold furnish the perspective necessary for
this to be clear.
all that I can still listen to by them is the first indelibles 12",
population control/infokill, last good sleep, bad touch. and all of
these either have a head-nod factor or guests. last good sleep I
respect more than like.
don't underestimate how much of el-p's oh-so revolutionary production
style was bitten from various phases that the RZA's gone throuh (esp.
"Tical")
Nathaniel
T. Tauri
> I've only heard his 12", but "Banquet of Sarcasm"
> and "3 guys in a bar" have pretty ill beats. The
> stand up bass on the first mentioned cut rocks
> pretty hard actually. Nice little guitar loop on
> the second.
My thoughts as well.
I thought they were pretty nice tracks, but 'tis true that I wouldn't
really rate Sole as a battler based on them.
Peece,
T. Tauri
B. David Harrison
> kudos to sole. that shit is sooo hot. hopefully el-p will have the
> decency to take it like a man. sole's intelligent and has a sense of
> humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
I would say that El-P has a sense of humor. What to you base this on.
>
> El-P was one of the first people to get wide exposure coming with
> super-abstract (and super-pretentious) styles and beats. that's all.
What's pretentious about it?
I'm just getting fucking sick of people saying shit and not backing it
up. Please, explain why you feel a certian way. Your opinion is not
fact, so give us a reason why you feel what you're saying is true.
B. David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
BSE
>
> In article <19981202133117...@ng-fc2.aol.com>,
> feli...@aol.com (Felix433) wrote:
>
> Soft duck will take out both dem suckas...ducks.
>
> Elpee - Soft Duck wrote all her rhymes for Funcrusher Plus. She is such a
> sucka it's not funny.
>
> Sole - I busted his Maine Ass when I broke out in Freestyle.
>
> I crush both dem soundbwoys.
>
> Duck.
This is SOOOOO Flash. Sorry mack but Ive pulled your card, hang up the
dope name and if you want to not get caugth again dont say "I crush both
dem soundbwoys", big giveaway.
:)
Peace, BSE.
----BSE----------------------------------------
"See, I was tipsy cos the sip be fruit punch
Spewed lunch, it was too much, too much to keep" - Siah
__________________BSE hip hop__________________
_____________ http://www.bseuk.com ____________
NazDak27
>humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
>
>super-abstract (and super-pretentious) styles and beats. that's all.
>hip-hop; they were a picture-perfect NYC-centric vision of the hip-hop
>avant-garde. unfortunately, they're shoddy, overblown, and fairly
>empty. the fact that there are much doper "advanced" emcees widely
>disseminated these days shouold furnish the perspective necessary for
>this to be clear.
>
>all that I can still listen to by them is the first indelibles 12",
>population control/infokill, last good sleep, bad touch. and all of
>these either have a head-nod factor or guests. last good sleep I
>respect more than like.
>
>don't underestimate how much of el-p's oh-so revolutionary production
>style was bitten from various phases that the RZA's gone throuh (esp.
>"Tical")
>
>Nathaniel
Nathaniel, I like the way you think. Youre on point about that whole shit. I
couldnt have said it better.
Good shit,
lojikal1
They get mad props for challenging the stereotypes set forth for our culture.
To say that they are pretentious is selling yourself(and everyone else) short.
If El Pee's lyrics aren't comprehended by everyone that's cool wit me. I am
tired of living on the drivel that passes for lyrics on most mainstream
albums. Master Pee and Puffy keep everything as simple as possible so as to
not hurt the brains of their feeble minded followers. Company Flow dares to
believe that heads are educated and up to date on politics and current
affairs. I don't think that is asking to much of us. If you find Elpee
pretentious it may be because of your reluctance to analyze the lyrics.
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.A41.3.95b.98120...@homer35.u.washington.edu>,
> "B. David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
>
> > I would say that El-P has a sense of humor. What to you base this on.
>
> el-p may be trying to make funny. but his delivery is so overbearing and
> self-serious that it's never FUNNY. maybe you could say some of his
> lyrics are clever. but being a funny emcee involves playfulness, a sense
> of irony, personality and humanity in your delivery. . . all shit that
> el-p lacks. same problem that a lot of the wu has.
>
> though I'm reminded of something Atmosphere's Spawn said on this live
> tape I've got:
>
> "your shit's funny. not hah hah funny, just plain funny."
>
> maybe it wqas slightly different. whatever, you get the point.
>
> >
> > >
> > > El-P was one of the first people to get wide exposure coming with
> > > super-abstract (and super-pretentious) styles and beats. that's all.
> >
> > What's pretentious about it?
>
> what's pretentious about lots of words that are as obscure as possible?
> a delivery that doesn't swing, groove, or move in any remotely
> rhytmically engaging way? sound-collage beats that accomplish little
> more than prove that El-p has the balls to challenge hip-hop's obsession
> with straightforward rhythms? not bothering to think about how your
> voice sounds from word to word because you figure your deep-ass lyrics
> speak for themselves, whether or not they're relayed well?
>
> co flow is about as self-consciously weird as you can get.
>
> if co-flow isn't pretentious hip-hop, please tell me what is.
nfri...@haverford.edu
nfri...@haverford.edu
"challenging the stereotypes set forth for our culture." however, just
challenging stereotypes is fairly meaningless unless, independant of the
shock value, you manage to pull off something substantive. as I've
explained, I don't think co-flow does.
I was jocking co-flow two years ago, I'll admit it. but then I found out
about other emcees who were pushing boundaries and acutally saying
something in the process. even since then, co-flow's seemed like a farce
to me. esp. everything they've done in the least year and a half or so.
co-flow's lyrics are overwrought. they could say things much more simply. and
yes, sometimes that rhetorical style can be cool--in flashes. or justified if
you're doing something musically interesting with the sounds of big words. or
have a particular gift for manipulating language. but co-flow has none of
these. just running off fairly rotely at the mouth.
coflow also misuses words at a rate that puts
the wu to shame. minus the cultural relativism excuse, of course.I don't know
what it means that very few coflow boosters notice this.
[[best summed up by sole's mocking "they're using big words? to diss me? yo
god, that's intrepid!"]]
there's also a rumor floating around that co-flow's off-beat style
emerged only after a trip out west. . . .
did you buy Book of Human Language? Dose-one's tape? beneath the
surface? radioinactive's EP? that's shit that means something.
I hope at least some of y'all find it funny that I was accused of being
conservative and staid in my hip-hop aesthetic.
peace
Nathaniel
In article <36676B9A...@hotmail.com>,
lojikal1 <loj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There are group of hip hoppers out there that love Co Flow. I am one of them.
> They get mad props for challenging the stereotypes set forth for our culture.
> To say that they are pretentious is selling yourself(and everyone else) short.
> If El Pee's lyrics aren't comprehended by everyone that's cool wit me. I am
> tired of living on the drivel that passes for lyrics on most mainstream
> albums. Master Pee and Puffy keep everything as simple as possible so as to
> not hurt the brains of their feeble minded followers. Company Flow dares to
> believe that heads are educated and up to date on politics and current
> affairs. I don't think that is asking to much of us. If you find Elpee
> pretentious it may be because of your reluctance to analyze the lyrics.
>
> nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
>
B. David Harrison
>
> el-p may be trying to make funny. but his delivery is so overbearing and
> self-serious that it's never FUNNY. maybe you could say some of his
I think that's your perception. You don't think he's funny, so you're
not picking up on it. I see all of the things you say he lacks. Not to
diss, but I think you're letting your opinion blind you.
> what's pretentious about lots of words that are as obscure as possible?
To me, pretention is based on intent. Do you think the El-P is doing
this simply to flex his vocabulary and sound smart. I don't, it's just a
different way of writing lyrics. That fact that he doesn't use some of
the same of tired cliches is a nice, to me.
> a delivery that doesn't swing, groove, or move in any remotely
> rhytmically engaging way? sound-collage beats that accomplish little
> more than prove that El-p has the balls to challenge hip-hop's obsession
> with straightforward rhythms? not bothering to think about how your
Again with people dissing the beats. The Co Flows beat's are hot, Vital
Nerve and Krazy Kings are just crazy super rhytmically engaging. To me,
you just don't like Co Flow, and instead of just saying that, you're
trying to break it down a little more.
Tony1er
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> kudos to sole. that shit is sooo hot. hopefully el-p will have the
> decency to take it like a man. sole's intelligent and has a sense of
> humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
el-p isn't intelligent and has no sense of humor? how the fuck did you come to
that conclusion. el-p is mad funny but it's not the type of funny you'll here
once and pick up on. he's one of very few mc's out there who incorporates
sarcasm into his rhymes. As far as intellegence goes, I'm not calling him a
genuis but he's is no doubt a very smart guy. Maybe he's just over your head? I
admit, at times, what he says is beyond me (especially his newer shit). But he
has shown that he can bring it down to a normal level and be both witty and
intelligent.
later tony
Kenneth Hyde
Wil...@spam.com
>
> >>I don't think there are many out there who think El-P is some lyrical
> >>mastermind..
> >
> >I disagree...I think there are several people, many people who thinnk
El-P is
> a
> >lyrical mastermind. I happen to think his lyrics are pretty good.
> >
> >Spirit
>
> Yeah El-P's lyrics are original and creative. I can see if some people
> don't like how he goes off beat (even though its never been a problem
> for me) most of the time its not that he goes off the beat that much,
> the beat is just crazy. The only song I didn't like is Krazy Kings
> Too, but since it was a B side I think they just did it as a throw
> away track. I think some people don't like him due to what he says, i
> think they dont understand his references or the words he uses. Like
> "Fucking with your theology like Darwinism in the Bible Belt" first
> time i heard that i had to hit rewind, but different people like
> different things no big deal.
that's basically my position. I'm ready for more El-P material even if
it gets more obscure...
Mr. Hyde
Kenneth Hyde
>
> > kudos to sole. that shit is sooo hot. hopefully el-p will have the
> > decency to take it like a man. sole's intelligent and has a sense of
> > humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
>
>
Definitely, that ending to End to End Burners is some funny shit!! Plus
his freestyles are pretty funny as well
"flaunt your skinny little penis..."
HAHA
> >
> > El-P was one of the first people to get wide exposure coming with
> > super-abstract (and super-pretentious) styles and beats. that's all.
>
> What's pretentious about it?
>
> I'm just getting fucking sick of people saying shit and not backing it
> up. Please, explain why you feel a certian way. Your opinion is not
> fact, so give us a reason why you feel what you're saying is true.
>
>
i still dig El-P and Co-Flow's shit...the fact that I don't understand
shit at first doesn't bother me. usually later down the line more pieces
of the puzzle get put in....beats are ill too...
I still love that "Weight" track
Mr. Hyde
nfri...@haverford.edu
<Pine.A41.3.95b.981204...@homer14.u.washington.edu>,
"B. David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > el-p may be trying to make funny. but his delivery is so overbearing and
> > self-serious that it's never FUNNY. maybe you could say some of his
>
> I think that's your perception. You don't think he's funny, so you're
> not picking up on it. I see all of the things you say he lacks. Not to
> diss, but I think you're letting your opinion blind you.
just because someone TRIES to be funny, doesn't mean I have to find them
funny. I'm not picking up on it because he's not funny.
I didn't decide a priori that co flow wasn't funny. I came to the
conclusion after listening to them for a long, long time. my opinion
isn't blinding me; it's what I've arrived at after careful consideration
of the music.
you can think whatever the hell you want about them; this is my
considered opinion.
>
> > what's pretentious about lots of words that are as obscure as possible?
>
> To me, pretention is based on intent. Do you think the El-P is doing
> this simply to flex his vocabulary and sound smart. I don't, it's just a
> different way of writing lyrics. That fact that he doesn't use some of
> the same of tired cliches is a nice, to me.
again, just cause he's trying to be experimental, doesn't mean it
succeeds. and I'd definitely say that co-flow's intent is to be
innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
>
> > a delivery that doesn't swing, groove, or move in any remotely
> > rhytmically engaging way? sound-collage beats that accomplish little
> > more than prove that El-p has the balls to challenge hip-hop's obsession
> > with straightforward rhythms? not bothering to think about how your
>
> Again with people dissing the beats. The Co Flows beat's are hot, Vital
> Nerve and Krazy Kings are just crazy super rhytmically engaging.
vital nerve is a dope beat, but the vocals lack.
yes, krazy kings I is very dope. thanks for reminding me of that one.
that's always been my favorite co-flow track; I actually think I've
forgotten about it so I wouldn't have to go through the trauma of
criticizing someting that was once so dear to me.
To me,
> you just don't like Co Flow, and instead of just saying that, you're
> trying to break it down a little more.
>
>
you're the one that asked me to back up my opinion of co-flow. that's
how this thread started.
no, co-flow doesn't do anything for me anymore. on a purely gut level.
in addition, they nauseate me for all the other reasons I listed. I
think that both kinds of considerations are valid, don't you?
nfri...@haverford.edu
ton...@aol.com (Tony1er) wrote:
peep my other onslaught on the subject. el-p's intelligence is misguided and
wasted; his sense of humor fails miserably; his sarcasm is leaden and only
comes across through close analysis of his lyrics. you should be able to tell
sarcasm (and other rhetorical affects) from the tone of voice. think about
when you're talking to people. . .
Nathaniel
> el-p isn't intelligent and has no sense of humor? how the fuck did you come to
> that conclusion. el-p is mad funny but it's not the type of funny you'll here
> once and pick up on. he's one of very few mc's out there who incorporates
> sarcasm into his rhymes. As far as intellegence goes, I'm not calling him a
> genuis but he's is no doubt a very smart guy. Maybe he's just over your head? I
> admit, at times, what he says is beyond me (especially his newer shit). But he
> has shown that he can bring it down to a normal level and be both witty and
> intelligent.
> later tony
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
DJLilE
response that has two sides to it... I was not trying to single anybody out as
I have already told Spirit, I was just saying that alot of the post I've seen
that are negative never give any credit to the crew or artist... it's just
usually a post saying he/she sucks... and for the heads that may have take that
line about "so called hip hop experts", don't take it personal.. they were
words that were meant to get some kind of a response... keep the mind open and
the discussion going with both negative and positive points..
peace.....................E
and for the record, I like both Artist and I just think this beef my be one big
misunderstanding that has esculated a little to far, but hey it's all in good
fun......right....
DJLilE
different crews and alot of different opinions... not just straight disses of
either one... keep the intense thoughts coming on every topic that gets the
mind pumped up... and Nathian I can tell you was feeling this topic bro...
peace................E
DJLilE
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> "B. David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> again, just cause he's trying to be experimental, doesn't mean it
> succeeds. and I'd definitely say that co-flow's intent is to be
> innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
this should be every artist's intent
if this makes them by definition pretentious, so be it
>
> vital nerve is a dope beat, but the vocals lack.
>
> yes, krazy kings I is very dope. thanks for reminding me of that one.
> that's always been my favorite co-flow track; I actually think I've
> forgotten about it so I wouldn't have to go through the trauma of
> criticizing someting that was once so dear to me.
actually while i really like the album krazy kings gives me a headache.
whatever that sound is on the chorus could not be more incessantly annoying
>
> To me,
> > you just don't like Co Flow, and instead of just saying that, you're
> > trying to break it down a little more.
> >
> >
> you're the one that asked me to back up my opinion of co-flow. that's
> how this thread started.
he is right david, you're dissing him for doing exactly what you asked. i
appreciate his explaining his viewpoint, though i don't agree. too bad not
everyone on this group will explain their views when asked
...nesta...
____________________________________________________
Most of you can't understand what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
_____________________________________________________
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> In article <19981204131020...@ng05.aol.com>,
> ton...@aol.com (Tony1er) wrote:
>
> peep my other onslaught on the subject. el-p's intelligence is misguided and
> wasted; his sense of humor fails miserably; his sarcasm is leaden and only
> comes across through close analysis of his lyrics. you should be able to tell
> sarcasm (and other rhetorical affects) from the tone of voice. think about
> when you're talking to people. . .
>
bullshit. people rarely get my sarcasm, unless they know me. and even then.
it's called deadpan, which if you get it is far funnier than saying something
in an asinine sarcastic voice. and if you're bringing intonation into the
mix, every ny mc must leave you very dissatisfied no?
JONM AYTAC
:
:
: > kudos to sole. that shit is sooo hot. hopefully el-p will have the
: > decency to take it like a man. sole's intelligent and has a sense of
: > humor; elpee has neither. a comeback is moot.
: el-p isn't intelligent and has no sense of humor? how the fuck did you come to
: that conclusion. el-p is mad funny but it's not the type of funny you'll here
: once and pick up on. he's one of very few mc's out there who incorporates
: sarcasm into his rhymes. As far as intellegence goes, I'm not calling him a
: genuis but he's is no doubt a very smart guy. Maybe he's just over your head? I
: admit, at times, what he says is beyond me (especially his newer shit). But he
: has shown that he can bring it down to a normal level and be both witty and
: intelligent.
: later tony
you rewind it, and once you make out what he said, you know what was meant by
it. It's yet another matter to have parsed the lyrics and still find new
interpretations with new listenings. Its yet another matter for the MC to have
something to say musically. It's yet another thing for the MC to actually be
encoding some insight in his shit. I listen to him from the point of view of
superficiality by profundity. Or maybe he's a dadaist or something. And that's
all good. But he doesn't operate at too many levels. Besides, his boy menelik
surpasses him both as a superscientific dadaist (now that's some encoding)
and as a stylist. And Divine Styler was obscurely encoded long before ElP
got into his thing, except there was some coherence at the end if you bothered
with the decoding.
In short, Elp's strength is that he is accessible without sounding overtly
accessible. Kinda like Nietzche's conception of the feminine.
I disagree with Friedman on one point though. ElP's whole draw is that he
sounds superscientific and hard. It's that academic fisticuffs posture that
people dig. But that's a social posture, and not at all a musical one. i
Still alot of those Funcrusher cuts will still get me hype.
s
--
B. David Harrison
> funny. I'm not picking up on it because he's not funny.
>
Your opinion, not fact. Everybody else seems to think that he is.
I've got to think it's more like you're not getting him.
>
> again, just cause he's trying to be experimental, doesn't mean it
> succeeds. and I'd definitely say that co-flow's intent is to be
> innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
>
It's pretentious to be different and innovative!?!? What world to you
live in? I know that you don't want bland cookie-cutter hip-hop. What I
think you're trying to argue is that Co-Flow is simply trying to be
elitst, and doing it for the sake of skill and clarity. I really don't
think that. Their whole "independant as fuck" mantra seems to be about
doing what you like for yourself and not trying to impress other people.
> you're the one that asked me to back up my opinion of co-flow. that's
> how this thread started.
Sure, you're trying to support the way you feel. But instead of saying,
"I don't like them", we got "They're wack." Partially I'm not willing to
conceed your point to you because you're arguing about what El-P is
thinking, and neither of us know that, or about subjective things like
humor. The basic message I got out of your first post was that "It's good
Sole dissed EL-P 'cause he's wack", I said "Well, why is he wack?", and
you replied with "He think's he's funny and he's not, and he's
pretentious". I guess I want examples and more adavanced critique.
Anything less than that just comes down to a subjective, "I don't like
him", which is fine, but it's not the same as "he's wack"
B. David Harrison
> he is right david, you're dissing him for doing exactly what you asked. i
> appreciate his explaining his viewpoint, though i don't agree. too bad not
> everyone on this group will explain their views when asked
>
I knew this was going to happen the minute I wrote this. There's a
difference, to me, between saying, "he's wack" and not explaining, and
saying, "I don't like him" and not explaining. He went off about how El-P
wasn't funny and was pretentious. That's what I asked him to explain.
I'm probably still riddeled with inconsistancies, but I think I see the
difference
KSG
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
>
> of course, book of human language had some of the deepest shit I've ever
> heard
> on it. but acey doesn't use that many big words, so I guess it couldn't have
> been all that profound, right?
>
> all I've got to say is "windows"
So what do you think this song means? When I first listened to it I thought it was
about a big brother type of state. Then later I thought it was about regrets and
bad decisions you made that you never tell a soul. Now when I listen to it, I
think it is about both. Hmph.
--
One Luv,
KSG
The UltraJam Show SRTV Tuesdays 11pm-midnight (Channel 18/Triton Cable)
Bring tha Noize KSDT
SRTV/KSDT: http://scw.ucsd.edu/
Personal: http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/~kgatlin
Wise Rebel
Kenneth Hyde writes:
>Definitely, that ending to End to End Burners is some funny shit!! Plus
>his freestyles are pretty funny as well
>"flaunt your skinny little penis..."
"Suck the dick kid and eat the dick cookie!"
"You couldn't get signed if you had a cast on" - Wordsworth
Wise
nfri...@haverford.edu
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
that's true about deadpanning. but I imagine your deadpan differs
somewhat in tone from when you're being earnest.
yeah, I guess most NYC emcees do lack in that deparmtment. though plenty
of NYC-ish sound bad-assed, which turns humor into cruelty. unless
you're saying shit that just super-goofy.
el-p, though, ain't bad-assed. the shit he says is too oblique to hit
you on a gut level. it's more like "after a week, I figured out what
el-p said and decided it was pretty witty."
Nathaniel
nfri...@haverford.edu
wta...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
>
> > again, just cause he's trying to be experimental, doesn't mean it
> > succeeds. and I'd definitely say that co-flow's intent is to be
> > innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
>
> if this makes them by definition pretentious, so be it
but it shouldn't be an end in itself. I think that co-flow all too often goes
out of their way to be weird. which is quite different from honing a personal,
meaningful style that just happens to be weird.
co-flow is so perfectly the antithesis of mainstream hip-hop that it's like
they purposefully try and contradict whatever troubles them at the moment.
exitistin strictly in the negative, as a parasite, etc.
Nathaniel
nfri...@haverford.edu
orp...@america.Berkeley.EDU (JONM AYTAC) wrote:
> I disagree with Friedman on one point though. ElP's whole draw is that he
> sounds superscientific and hard. It's that academic fisticuffs posture that
> people dig. But that's a social posture, and not at all a musical one. i
>
yeah, I guess he is trying to sound like an intellectual dun. my bad for
not realizing that all his bluster is supposed to be approximating
ballsiness. he just sounds sorta impotent to me.
JONM AYTAC
:
punch in that says "you're whole style is studio punch ins". That was comedy.
As to this whole ElP isn't funny business, I got this friend who's kinda
got that belligerent sarcasm thing, and its hilarious, though his belligerent
or menacing delivery is allways well placed. I just think ElP gets tired
on account of his rhythmic approach. That's where he gets into the most
trouble. He kinda suffers from kicking a style that's too complicated for him,
though there are a number of MC's who can do the extended phrase thing with
much more compelling precsion. His rhythmic resolution isn't all that fine-
grained. But I think his shit's kinda fun all the same. Maybe that's because
I listen to his shit only every now and again.
"congradu-fuckin-lations/I dropped it now you got it/ but its only an amount
of time before waldo gets spotted"
--
Kang Su Gatlin
>
> I think Friedman's point is that Elp's superficially cryptic. Which means, ok,
> you rewind it, and once you make out what he said, you know what was meant by
> it.
And I think this is true at an even more superficial level than what I think you
were implying. El-P has a serious weakness in that IMHO his lyrics are hard to
understand. Not because they are recondite, but because of breath control. People
dismiss him for ignoring rhythym in his flows, but I just wish he would enunciate
better.
But continue back on your conversation... just had to throw in my standard
El-P gripe (BTW... I still like Funcrusher +).
KSG
JONM AYTAC
: In article <749qk9$304$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: co-flow is so perfectly the antithesis of mainstream hip-hop that it's like
: they purposefully try and contradict whatever troubles them at the moment.
: exitistin strictly in the negative, as a parasite, etc.
about this bad ass player I met. He played this solo and everybody creamed in
their
jeans. After everyone's done sucking his dick after the show, he turns to my
boy and says "I just played a half-step up from every note that would have
been hip". But those dumb fuck, no ear having motherfuckers thought it was
some brilliant scheme of reharmonization. Suckas!
It's that whole "alternativeness". It's dumb shit. It's obvious. But it is
accessible (pop audience is more likely to get first order out-ness than
some higher order outness).
Again, that doesn't mean the music isn't good fun.
Then everybody pats themselves on the back for being into experimental music.
peace
--
AlanPage
>super-abstract
ever heard of Ultramagnetic MCs? De La Soul?
Peace,
Spirit
Spread Love/Amphibians
The Amphibians' debut single "Lettuce (Entertain You)" b/w "Journey" will be
available August 9th, on vinyl ($5) and cassettes ($3), add $2 for
shipping/handling. E-mail me for more details...
AlanPage
>innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
I just looked up pretentious in my dictionary, so we could work with a
definition here. It says "(1) claiming or demanding attention otr merit (2)
making an extravagant show"
Now, most emcees fall in both categories...why would you make a record and ship
thousands of those records to the public if you didn't want "attention or
merit"? So, what exactly do you mean by "pretentious"? Because, just like
"arrogant", the word seems to apply to a lot of emcees, but while not a
universally admired personal trait, arrogance is part of the emcee's trade.
I think El-P tries to make music the way he wants to. I can';t picture him
sitting in a studio and saying "No, someone will understand that lyric, let me
rewrite it to make it more obscure". That strikes me as highly unlikely.
I admit that yoiu have a great point, emcees like Acey are putting more
humanity in their lyricism and sans "Last Good Sleep", Co Flow's lyricism is
very non-personal. HOWEVER, how many of KRS-ONE songs are "deeply personal".
Maybe "A Friend" qualifies. Does this mean that KRS' entire body of work should
be looked down upon? I'm just taking your argument to the logical extreme, so i
can understand your position better. Is the fact that El-P's lyrics are less
than personal make them less than relevant? This is my opinion, as a mature
listener I prefer to listen to lyricists who put their heart into their words
(Common, Cee-Lo, Aceyalone, Abstract Rude, etc.), but I'm wondering what YOUR
stance is.
AlanPage
>>his freestyles are pretty funny as well
>
>>"flaunt your skinny little penis..."
the shit that always cracked me up was "tootsie roll the fuck back to your seat
cuz I don't like you". Just the visual image is funny....picture someone doing
the Tootsie Roll backwards...
Someone stole my Co Flow CD, so I can't lsit any other lines...
SoulzOnIce
>El-p has the balls to challenge hip-hop's obsession
>with straightforward rhythms
You just contradicted yourself, this is why many people dig el-p's beats
>deep-ass lyrics
>speak for themselves
sometimes they do
sou!zon!ce
"I'm not sayin I'm the baddest, but I know I got potential" - gift of gab
nfri...@haverford.edu
orp...@america.Berkeley.EDU (JONM AYTAC) wrote:
> As to this whole ElP isn't funny business, I got this friend who's kinda
> got that belligerent sarcasm thing, and its hilarious, though his belligerent
> or menacing delivery is allways well placed.
that's funny, I was just thinking the same thing about Sole.
Sole may have been influenced by El-P. But Sole made an important
advancement---he actually does that shit well.
no one's mentioned that "dear elpee" is sole's finest work to date.
once deep puddle drops, everyone will understand just how rewarding and
successful complex hip-hop can be.
of course, book of human language had some of the deepest shit I've ever
heard
on it. but acey doesn't use that many big words, so I guess it couldn't have
been all that profound, right?
all I've got to say is "windows"
peace
RephugeRec
"Dear El-Pee,
How's your summer been? Mine's been fine. I heard you had a real good time at
camp. Oh, yeah, I talked Len, he said everything's cool. Oh, yo, I really liked
"End to End Burner"; that little diss me thing on the internet was pretty
funny. Yeah, it's live, sucker. Uh, yeah, and I was talking, y'know, trying to
sell my record distributors and they wouldn't take it because, you know, some
fat white kid was thinkin' it'd be funny to blackball. Well, you know, I wrote
a little poem about it and I really hope you like it. So have your mother read
it to you and if you guys like it, you can write me back!"
I'm a Anticon iconclast catalyst for cataclysm
Tell Fox: dissing Sole, bad executive decision
Your egosystem's frail, with a spoon I could dissect it
Soundin' like Corky got his nubs on a Webster's dictionary
A Ras Kass record and a brand new MPC
Pressing all them pretty buttons, making wack beats
To hell with Fat Beats, I'd rather rock acapella
I'd rather be broke and have a whole lot resent
Not a Rich King, a pawn, a peon for me to pee on
Check out 9th Street, a big sign: "El-Pee got served" in neon
Trendy indie underground cause you haven't got a choice
Take a way your elitist buddies and you haven't got a voice
No five thousand for radio, no hundred-thou for ads and banners
No paying record stores for all your Rawkus propaganda
Well-timed marketing scheme, it's cool to be independent
But if it was last year, you'd be a dun or a Missy Elliot
And after your indie bravado and the label has recouped
You're broker than when Libra left you crying for a record deal from Luke
I strike you awestruck, you femanine to blackball
I'll be serving you 'til you're serving me ice cream in a mall
Some fool said this an underground Canibus and LL
Well that's comedy, cause I'll serve all three of y'all
Heard Rupert had to starve all the indie artists to feed your ego
Running around the Bay looking for Sole with your foot in your mouth
I heard you like the Bay (Castro) but think 4 tracks are wack
Lost in the O-Zone and all your mixdowns sound like crap
Hiding lack of intellect behind hipster catch phrase and babble
Indellibles'll never get a full length cause you don't wanna be outshined
Fine, I heard you wanna kill me and get fools after me
The only violence you ever witnessed was on Menace II Society
Try to sound deep and got masses fooled by your lack of rhythm
I elevate while you perpetuate your malopropism
[Yo, wha, what did he just call me, dun?]
Yo, I don't know, man. Yo, I, I don't know what he just called you, man.
[Well, yo, go get the books. Go get the Bible.]
Yo, man, well apparently you must've ripped all the pages out in the
dictionary, man, cause you've used all the words.
[So I'm never gonna find out what he called me? He's usin' big words against
me? Yo, this is intrepid, god!]
I'm a hip hop artist, you style-biting MC sucker
Had a Crayon contest with retarted kids and picked the wackest album cover
Picked the wrong MC to diss subliminally, every line dissected
Yeah, I diss you on the internet, to your face, and on record
For the record, I know the muck from which out you have stepped
First you sound like Beatnuts then you're Mr. 4,000 syllables
One bar, out of breath on stage a failure
Gotta quit rocking mics and start rocking an asthma inhaler
El-Producto: indepenent as Fox
Since when do indie records show up in a WEA box?
By saying you're indepenent you belittle the whole movement
Real MCs work hard, ain't got investors to put out their music
Underground conspiracy but this ain't used by No Limit
Mad cause you didn't blow up, the victim of your own wack gimmick
But some fools bought into it cause they don't know no better
That you're a hamburger pimp, only out for the cheddar
Yo, what's a battle MC that can't freestyle?
All these references to imaginary MCs, come battle me
Remember in Boston, you started calling fools out?
And when MCs try to battle, you were the first to break out
Well, you surely don't wanna battle, of course you want to fight, you're bigger
Fine, you win, we can have a contest to see who's the biggest wigger
Oh, you win again, it must feel great, I heard you don't like white MCs
Traded in your Kani and X hats for a fresh set of Echo and Adidas
You as hip hop as Garth Brooks and as manly as garter belts
And if you're so creative talk about something other than yourself
No, I'm not dissing New York or any of your comrads in arms
I'm tearing down that posterboy Miss Piggy-lookin' leprachaun
El-Pee vs. the Spice Girls (I got five on Scary Spice)
But both of y'all are in desperate need of back up singers when it's live
And I know they think your original, but follow me through this portal
You bit your whole styles from an underground MC named Vordul
Spread rumors about me to everyone you meet, evade being a man
I heard you putting out an instumental album of sitars, pots, and pans
You've done enough talking, so I know you ain't fading Sole
Have your boy Rupert Murdoch fly you out, I'll serve you on the Wake Up Show
The redheaded kingpin, step child to a little herpe sore festering
Heard you only pull females when you tell 'em you're a lesbian
Wanna sign autographs, but all your fans are rappers
The evolution will not be televised as your #1 fan becomes your master
I'd love to give you a hand but all I got is a middle finger
Farakhan won't squash this, so we can finish it on Jerry Springer
Newsweek martyr, bring your rhetoric retort
You oughta tootsie roll under your rock, your two minutes of fame got cut short
FYI: starving artists don't have corporate luncheons
Got a horrible freeestyle and the rest of your style is (studio punch-ins)
The dun crusher busts fresh, overly when I blast 'em
And those so called freestyles, they all popped up on your album
Manipulate your connects so they wanna see me on a curb
But I guarantee you lyin', cause you know one-on-one you'd get served
Now it's time to pay dues like when Daddy Warbucks
Bought your face onto the cover of the last Stress
We gonna battle, so write your rhymes ahead of time
And I'll still come twice as fresh
And keep it all in the family, like Rose I'll take a back seat
Keep my name out your mouth like my wax from the racks of (Fat Beats)
Fat egos inflated, hope you liked my little poem
And hope to hear from you soon, signed, your friend, Sole
Steve 'Flash' Juon
I've saved a copy so just let me know how you feel about it
and if it's cool I'll post it today.
Peace, Flash
In article <19981205050728...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
rephu...@aol.com says...
--
"Look out the window golly the sky is electric blue..." --> Andre B.
"Sony or Aiwa, black or white, I fit in all stereotypes" --> Wordsworth
Steve 'Flash' Juon --> contact dj.f...@pobox.com for e-mail
Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive --> http://www.OHHLA.com/index.htm
Suite 101's Hip-Hop --> http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/116
KSG
RephugeRec wrote:
> *** "Dear El-Pee" by Sole
>
> Lost in the O-Zone and all your mixdowns sound like crap
Is this a diss on Ollie Wang?
KSG
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> In article <3668DF23...@cs.ucsd.edu>,
> KSG <kga...@cs.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > So what do you think this song means? When I first listened to it I thought it was
> > about a big brother type of state. Then later I thought it was about regrets and
> > bad decisions you made that you never tell a soul. Now when I listen to it, I
> > think it is about both. Hmph.
>
> and then there's also the idea of the soul walled in by the body, looking out
> through the eyes. in which case windows are essential.
>
> the "windows have eyes" in the first means that you're looking in, others are
> looking out. whether it's an actual room or the metaphor for mind/body.
>
> then at the end walls are redeemed, too. though I don't understand how yet.
>
> of course, there's an interplay between these different metaphors that's hard
> to get down on paper. esp. when I have all sorts of other shit I need to get
> done.
>
> or maybe I'm just making all of this up.
>
Actually what you wrote makes MUCH more sense to me than what I was thinking.
The last couple of lines still throw me though. He says that we should realize this
seperation between the body and soul. But then he says.... "while you are window
shopping don't bother stopping at my store". I'm not sure what that means...
Steve 'Flash' Juon
>
>
> RephugeRec wrote:
>
> > *** "Dear El-Pee" by Sole
> >
>
I have a feeling the author was a newsgroup junkie being too literal.
Lost in the ozone (LAYER) of the Earth.
Steve 'Flash' Juon
rephu...@aol.com says...
> ozone entertainment is the management company for company flow.
Well OK then, but either way we agree. I said it was "ozone" too,
I just didn't realize that was their management company. I knew
for SURE it wasn't O-Dub.
SoulzOnIce
>shopping don't bother stopping at my store". I'm not sure what that means...
Maybe selling your soul to the devil? Think about it.
RephugeRec
>>
>> Is this a diss on Ollie Wang?
>
>I have a feeling the author was a newsgroup junkie being too literal.
>Lost in the ozone (LAYER) of the Earth.
actually no.
sole is referring to the o-zone as in o-zone entertainment. not oliver wang's
site. look at the back of any of your company flow cd's or records. it should
be capitalized as so.
Dickhead
>RephugeRec wrote:
>
>> *** "Dear El-Pee" by Sole
>>
>
>Is this a diss on Ollie Wang?
>
>
O-zone records. Co Flow's label.
Props,
Dickhead
Wise Rebel
(JONM AYTAC) writes:
>that reminds me of the part in the sole diss track where Sole's got this
>punch in that says "you're whole style is studio punch ins". That was comedy.
Huh?
What's a punch in?
Breakwizrd
>>punch in that says "you're whole style is studio punch ins". That was
>comedy.
>
>Huh?
>
>What's a punch in?
a punch in is a studio term for on the fly editing of a specific part of a
trap( usually to fix errors)
"yes- yes- yes...you dealin with lyricists thats fresh- fresh- fresh..."-
lyrics born
" a space knight like rom, consume planets like unicron, shoot photon bombs
from tha arm like galvatron" - RZA
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/3092/subconscious
Steve 'Flash' Juon
break...@aol.com says...
> >
> >>punch in that says "you're whole style is studio punch ins". That was
> >comedy.
> >
> >Huh?
> >
> >What's a punch in?
>
> a punch in is a studio term for on the fly editing of a specific part of a
> trap( usually to fix errors)
Dr. Dre once accused Eazy-E of being such a wack vocalist (incapable of
flowing) that they had to "punch in" and "punch out" each of his lines
and then run them together to make it seem like a smooth flowing rhyme.
If you've ever operated a studio console, this idea makes total sense.
Peace, Flash
Tony1er
>peep my other onslaught on the subject. el-p's intelligence is misguided and
wasted; his sense of humor fails miserably; his sarcasm is leaden and only
comes across through close analysis of his lyrics. you should be able to tell
sarcasm (and other rhetorical affects) from the tone of voice. think about
when you're talking to people. . .
again, big disagreement. his sarcasm has depth. Maybe it's just not you type
of humor. it's not for everybody. I think he's funny. little things he says can
be dismissed as bullshit but if you look at them closer, the shit is funny. I
was think about one of his lines from "the definitive".
it goes something like "somewhat excessive, sexually suggestive, I could suck a
cookie out a pussy,no question". to some, that line is just dumb but to me,
it's a great use of down low sarcasm and wit. maybe it's just me...
i doubt it. I've been listening to el-p for quite some time now. from around
93ish when he first dropped "juvinile techniques". I've heard him change and
grow and then more recently, become almost unlistenable.
with all I've heard, you just seem to be selling the guy way short. sure, he
hasn't made anything recently that has impreeded me, but you seem to be
overlooking anything he did before funcrusher plus.the original funcrusher ep
is basically all dope shit that's a more understandable el-p. back when he was
a dope battle mc whose flow was actually dope.
later tony
Tony1er
veiwpoint. first of all, he does get a few good ones on el-p but overall, he's
not that dope. what the hell is that line about "only violence you've seen is
menece to society" excuse me? sole is from fucking vermont for christ sakes.
el-p is from NYC. that's like me telling flash he's never seen a cow like I
have.
I feel like a bunch of his lines show a large misunderstanding of where el-p is
coming from. for instance: the line about him jumping on the fad of
independence, el-p has been doing independent shit since high school (or should
I say when he dropped out to do independent shit). he's a an originator of the
nyc new underground scene. that says a lot.also, to compare him ras kass is
retarded. since when has he ever sounded like ras kass? they both use big words
but that's the end of the comparison right there. and those complaints are just
in the first verse overall, no matter how good sole's flow could be on the
track, it's not an overly effective diss because he sounds like he barely knows
el-p, what he done in the past and where he's coming from. believe me, in the
future of rap, no one is going to give too shits about sole but el-p will have
made some sort of impact.
later tony
Steve 'Flash' Juon
says...
> Ok, now that I've read the lyrics I feel I can somewhat speak on sole's
> veiwpoint. first of all, he does get a few good ones on el-p but overall, he's
> not that dope. what the hell is that line about "only violence you've seen is
> menece to society" excuse me? sole is from fucking vermont for christ sakes.
> el-p is from NYC. that's like me telling flash he's never seen a cow like I
> have.
Actually, most of the milk and cheese is in Wisconsin, but your point is
taken. (You could have said never seen hogs or sheep, but hey, whateva.)
I think Sole's point is taking too - Vermont, NY, whatnot - he's just
saying that El-P is such a herb that he grew up in the suburbs jocking
black culture and wishing he was a hard motherfucker like O-Dog in Menace
II Society.
> I feel like a bunch of his lines show a large misunderstanding of where el-p is
> coming from. for instance: the line about him jumping on the fad of
> independence, el-p has been doing independent shit since high school
But you gotta admit CoFlow was EXACTLY the right group at the right time.
Whether that was cleverness or sheer fucking luck can be debated on end.
> future of rap, no one is going to give too shits about sole but el-p will have
> made some sort of impact.
> later tony
That's not really fair either. Just because you don't dig Sole's style
(and despite how funny this song is he's still not my favorite MC) does
not mean he won't make an impact on hip-hop. And if El-P really did do
that shit with Fat Beats, SOMEBODY was bound to call him out for it.
Cause that shit was just wack. El-P seems to have gotten a KRS-One sized
ego from all the love he gets via the indie scene and some of the shit
Sole said about it was dead up accurate.
lojikal1
nfri...@haverford.edu wrote:
> In article <19981204223645...@ng113.aol.com>,
> alan...@aol.com (AlanPage) wrote:
>
> >>I'd definitely say that co-flow's intent is to be
> >>innovative and different---pretty fucking pretentious if you ask me.
> >
> >I just looked up pretentious in my dictionary, so we could work with a
> >definition here. It says "(1) claiming or demanding attention otr merit (2)
> >making an extravagant show"
>
> as in "co flow makes an extravagant show of their originality." I posted
> something before I went out about their seeming need to consistnently
> contradict anything associated with mainstream hip-hop.
>
> >I think El-P tries to make music the way he wants to. I can';t picture him
> >sitting in a studio and saying "No, someone will understand that lyric, let me
> >rewrite it to make it more obscure". That strikes me as highly unlikely.
>
> I was freestyling with this kid tonight who had the same problem I'm
> thinking El-P doesŠŠŠevery lyric out of his mouth tried to use big words and
> ended up nonsense or addled sense. it's not so much a conscious effort with
> every bar you write, but backseat agenda that guides everything you do.
>
> How could you possibly say that there is a a backseat agenda guiding El P? That is
> pure conjecture on your part. We have no way of knowing what he is thinking.
> Perhaps an even deeper level of listening might be necessary to totally understand
> all of El P's lyrics. His use of big words continues to be a sore point. Why?
> Emcee's have always created words, twisted their meanings, and played with them
> as much as possible. Artistic liscenses are valid in the world of hip hop.
> put plainly, I don't believe El-P's "I don't try to be different, I am." I
> don't think he's always consciously trying too hard. but that's the net
> effect.
>
Trying too hard what? To be himself? What makes it seem like he is trying too hard?
Even if he purposely set out to anatagonize the average listener's concepts of
dopeness is that not in itself a form of artistic expression? Look to other arts and
you will find the Dadaists, performance artists, beat poets like Kerouac-- all of
whom made expression all about giving the people what they thought they disliked.
Just as a catalyst to make people question what they did like.
>
> >
> >I admit that yoiu have a great point, emcees like Acey are putting more
> >humanity in their lyricism and sans "Last Good Sleep", Co Flow's lyricism is
> >very non-personal. HOWEVER, how many of KRS-ONE songs are "deeply personal".
> >Maybe "A Friend" qualifies. Does this mean that KRS' entire body of work should
> >be looked down upon? I'm just taking your argument to the logical extreme, so i
> >can understand your position better. Is the fact that El-P's lyrics are less
> >than personal make them less than relevant? This is my opinion, as a mature
> >listener I prefer to listen to lyricists who put their heart into their words
> >(Common, Cee-Lo, Aceyalone, Abstract Rude, etc.), but I'm wondering what YOUR
> >stance is.
> >
>
> it's not even specifically a complaint about lyrical content. it has to do
> with everything about co flow as emcees and most of what they've done
> musically in the last year or so----there's no humanity to any of it. I
> don't feel like I'm listening to music made by humans for humans. I feel
> like I'm listening to someone trying to prove a point about their place in
> hip-hop.
>
> there's a lot of posturing in co-flow's material.
>
Hip hop has been about posturing since the first Emcee said "I'm fresher than all of
y'all". As for the music not being made for human by humans, Co Flow's whole concept
is some ol' technology and biology meet to create a cyborg type concept. I first
heard Co Flow 3 years ago and the first think that came to mind was William Gibson.
They are on a cyperpunk level. Hip Hop for the next millenium. Funcrusher Plus feels
apocalyptic. Soundtrack to Johnny Mnemonic or Total Recall or Blade Runner. The
Future.
"I give a damn if any fan recall my legacy. I'm trying to live right in the sight of
God's Memory."-Mos Def
nfri...@haverford.edu
ton...@aol.com (Tony1er) wrote:
sure, he
> hasn't made anything recently that has impreeded me, but you seem to be
> overlooking anything he did before funcrusher plus.the original funcrusher ep
> is basically all dope shit that's a more understandable el-p. back when he was
> a dope battle mc whose flow was actually dope.
> later tony
>
okay, I'll admit that what I'm saying applies mostly to the newer stuff. but
don't try and tell me that El-P's recent decline hasn't affected the way you
think about the earlier stuff.
cullen
: not mean he won't make an impact on hip-hop. And if El-P really did do
: that shit with Fat Beats, SOMEBODY was bound to call him out for it.
: Cause that shit was just wack. El-P seems to have gotten a KRS-One sized
: ego from all the love he gets via the indie scene and some of the shit
What i don't understand is, doesn't one of the Arsonists work at Fat
Beats? Isn't one of the Arsonists on the Sole record? Wouldn't that
override a non-employee saying "Yo i don't like that kid"? I mean, Cage
and Eminem have beef but i bought an Eminem record at Fat Beats... And
Cage is in tight with those cats.
--
cullen
DJLilE
words.... man this might get a little heated..ummhh..
E
DJLilE
you where he's from... good email though...
E
DJLilE
unless of course those collabs are pulling madd sales....
E
Tony1er
okay, I'll admit that what I'm saying applies mostly to the newer stuff. but
don't try and tell me that El-P's recent decline hasn't affected the way you
think about the earlier stuff.
true, i don't jock him anymore but I can still see him doing something good. i
think his verse on krazy kings too is a step in the right direction. not only
is it not a battle verse but it's deeper then he ussually goes. more personal.
later tony
Tony1er
yo Tony just to let you know Sole ain't from Vermont... email and he'll tell
you where he's from... good email though...
Is he from maine? I know it's some place like that. I always get those two
confused.
later tony
B. David Harrison
Props to whoever posted the Dear Elpee lyrics.
>
> no one's mentioned that "dear elpee" is sole's finest work to date.
>
Having just read the lyrics, I sure hope not. It's not a very tight
song. Sole just seems to be pissed at EL-P and grabbing at whatever
straws he can.
>
> of course, book of human language had some of the deepest shit I've ever
> heard
> on it. but acey doesn't use that many big words, so I guess it couldn't have
> been all that profound, right?
>
I don't know if anybody is claiming that El-P is profound, just that
he's good. 90% of your argument is still coming back to what you think
El-P's motives are, and you don't know that.
B. David Harrison
Live from Seattle
"This ain't no time when the usual is sutible" -Mos Def
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really
rearranging their prejudices." - Edward R. Murrow
JONM AYTAC
: Trying too hard what? To be himself? What makes it seem like he is trying too hard?
: Even if he purposely set out to anatagonize the average listener's concepts of
: dopeness is that not in itself a form of artistic expression? Look to other arts and
: you will find the Dadaists, performance artists, beat poets like Kerouac-- all of
: whom made expression all about giving the people what they thought they disliked.
: Just as a catalyst to make people question what they did like.
Oh yeah and Marcel Duchamps says avant garde artists are avant garde phsyicists
in disguise and vice versa. Which is to say sure these people run into ideas
that force phenomenological questions but they are also guided thus by
rigorous constraints. It's one thing to simply do the aposite of a trend and
its another thing to do something that's beyondn both the trend and the trend's
anti-trend, baby.
It's the difference between making something that's interesting from a
musical point of view and making something that amounts to pop music for the
iconoclastic pseudo intellectual.
peace
--
JONM AYTAC
: is some ol' technology and biology meet to create a cyborg type concept. I first
: heard Co Flow 3 years ago and the first think that came to mind was William Gibson.
: They are on a cyperpunk level. Hip Hop for the next millenium. Funcrusher Plus feels
: apocalyptic. Soundtrack to Johnny Mnemonic or Total Recall or Blade Runner. The
: Future.
Kerouac was an idiot. Burroughs was not. Gibson is a complete retard when
it comes to fucking with the fantastic. Borges, Pynchon, Dick, or Cortazar
give that dude the brown mouth. Similarly with ElP
--
Lisa
Kang Su Gatlin wrote:
> I tried to read Neuromancer and just could not do it. It just seemed so bad to me. This
> book has turned me off of Gibson. I just started "The Einstein Intersection" by Delany
> though... great read so far.
>
If you want to try some more Gibson, I suggest "Mona Lisa Overdrive". If you like the
cyberpunk thing , but Gibsonjust ain't workin' then try "Snow Crash" or "The Diamond Age".
BSE
Yeah I lvoe taht verse. "I wasonce in a land with tings that never go
right" smells of Siah to me :)
BSE
----BSE----------------------------------------
"See, I was tipsy cos the sip be fruit punch
Spewed lunch, it was too much, too much to keep" - Siah
__________________BSE hip hop__________________
_____________ http://www.bseuk.com ____________
Kang Su Gatlin
> lojikal1 (loj...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : is some ol' technology and biology meet to create a cyborg type concept. I first
> : heard Co Flow 3 years ago and the first think that came to mind was William Gibson.
> : They are on a cyperpunk level. Hip Hop for the next millenium. Funcrusher Plus feels
> : apocalyptic. Soundtrack to Johnny Mnemonic or Total Recall or Blade Runner. The
> : Future.
> Again, ironically incisive. Willliam Gibson is an idiot. Futurism is cool.
> Kerouac was an idiot. Burroughs was not. Gibson is a complete retard when
> it comes to fucking with the fantastic. Borges, Pynchon, Dick, or Cortazar
> give that dude the brown mouth. Similarly with ElP
I tried to read Neuromancer and just could not do it. It just seemed so bad to me. This
book has turned me off of Gibson. I just started "The Einstein Intersection" by Delany
though... great read so far.
cullen
out for a few days and i can't bring myself to listen to it(the only track
i listen to is "3 Guys At a Bar" anyway). Maybe it's his use of "wigger,"
or maybe it's because he seems so damn petty. It's not like Canibus, where
i thought he had good reason to be pissed off and was knocking down
someone who needed it anyhow... Sole saying that El-P is fronting on
independence and a large vocabulary is just so bogus. He's not like Keith
Murray - he uses words and concepts properly, and they make sense. The
whole thing seems stupid to me. Sole doesn't even seem to have an anger
that's attractive, like RA the Rugged Man's "Fuck everybody" stance.
By the way, what are people talking about, "El-P's recent decline"? Okay,
"N to N Burners" isn't that hot compared to his other stuff. But "Weight"
has nice lyrics... What else has he done that would evidence a decline?
--
cullen
Agent of the Sixth International
T. Tauri
> Again, ironically incisive. Willliam Gibson is an
> idiot. Futurism is cool. Kerouac was an idiot.
> Burroughs was not. Gibson is a complete retard when
> it comes to fucking with the fantastic. Borges,
> Pynchon, Dick, or Cortazar give that dude the brown
> mouth.
I don't know if he's an idiot. A terrible writer IMO, but pretty
interesting thoughts on trends of today as they carry on into the
future.
Peece,
T. Tauri
Tony1er
By the way, what are people talking about, "El-P's recent decline"? Okay,
"N to N Burners" isn't that hot compared to his other stuff. But "Weight"
has nice lyrics... What else has he done that would evidence a decline?
To me, he hasn't really hit a great lyrical note since around the time
population control dropped. That was his pinnicle to me. Ever since then his
lyrics may have remained dope but his flow and his pronunciation have taken a
turn towards unlistenable. Even his shit on weight, which had some great
moments, is too hard to understand to really sweat. that's his problem. it's
hard enough to get what he says when you can make out what he's saying but add
sloppy pronunciation to the equation and he might as well be rapping in
portaguese.
later tony
JONM AYTAC
OK, OK, I'm being a complete asshole about this. Gibson has some cool socio-
logical insights right? I get overzealous.
peace
--
Aaron
vlyuxocc
>
> Again, ironically incisive. Willliam Gibson is an
> idiot. Futurism is cool. Kerouac was an idiot.
> Burroughs was not. Gibson is a complete retard when
> it comes to fucking with the fantastic. Borges,
> Pynchon, Dick, or Cortazar give that dude the brown
> mouth.
the most important literary figures of the 20th century. His free flow
style of writing was revolutionary and his social commentary on America
and American values was very insightful. Kerouac (along with allen
ginsberg) was also pushing the boundaries of what could and could not be
said, and without them the use of the word "fuck" today might not be as
accepted. oh, and they helped bring along the sexual revolution of the
60's as well. By calling Kerouac an idiot you are jut exposing your
own ignorance, and thats not cool.
Rase One
Kenneth Hyde
Props to whoever posted the Dear Elpee lyrics.
>
> no one's mentioned that "dear elpee" is sole's finest work to date.
>
<< Having just read the lyrics, I sure hope not. It's not a very tight
song. Sole just seems to be pissed at EL-P and grabbing at whatever
straws he can. >>
I haven't heard the song, but I would say some of the songs off his last
EP were his finest....I guess if you hate El-P then you would love that
song....
>
> of course, book of human language had some of the deepest shit I've ever
> heard
> on it. but acey doesn't use that many big words, so I guess it couldn't have
> been all that profound, right?
>
<< I don't know if anybody is claiming that El-P is profound, just that
he's good. 90% of your argument is still coming back to what you think
El-P's motives are, and you don't know that. >>
Then again not everyone listens for profound shit....some just like how
it sounds...me included, with some nice lyrics thrown in from time to
time..
Mr. Hyde
nfri...@haverford.edu
Kenneth Hyde <khy...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > no one's mentioned that "dear elpee" is sole's finest work to date.
> I haven't heard the song, but I would say some of the songs off his last
> EP were his finest....I guess if you hate El-P then you would love that
> song....
from what I understand, the stuff on "music without a face" is older.
his flow has improved and his writing is a lot less slapdash, too.
"let it rain" on your tape is more indicative of what's going on with
him. I also think that part of his verse is his addressed to el-p.
>
> >
> > of course, book of human language had some of the deepest shit I've ever
> > heard
> > on it. but acey doesn't use that many big words, so I guess it couldn't have
> > been all that profound, right?
> >
>
> << I don't know if anybody is claiming that El-P is profound, just that
> he's good. 90% of your argument is still coming back to what you think
> El-P's motives are, and you don't know that. >>
>
> Then again not everyone listens for profound shit....some just like how
> it sounds...me included, with some nice lyrics thrown in from time to
> time..
wasn't trying to say that el-p is trying to be profound. just a
back-handed attempt to ask if people respect Acey less because he's not
as overwrought as el-p.
nfri...@haverford.edu
deg...@videotron.ca wrote:
Kerouac and Company Flow are both important, catalytic artistic
presences. That doesn't necessarily mean they're good. there's a
difference.
plenty of people are important not because they succeed, but because
they introduce others to ideas and concepts行many of which are nothing
more than re-introducing something that has been floating around in a
nascent form for years. or something that simply needs to be updated to
be relevant to the present artistic scene.
Kerouac was the posterboy for the beatnik craze; Co-flow for the
super-scientifical artsy underground. both present themselves as the
perfect combination of street smart earthiness and cultivation, so that
no one can call them "precious" or, ideally, "idiots."
On the road is still dope. but that was heavily worked over by some
famous editor whose name I've forgotten. dharma bums was okay when I
was 16. most of his other stuff I had problems with even then行I hate
to think how I'd react to it now.
Ginsberg, on the other hand, is hands down the greatest American poet
of this century. cept for maybe Tash.
Nathaniel
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
JONM AYTAC
: > JONM AYTAC wrote:
: >
: > Again, ironically incisive. Willliam Gibson is an
: > idiot. Futurism is cool. Kerouac was an idiot.
: > Burroughs was not. Gibson is a complete retard when
: > it comes to fucking with the fantastic. Borges,
: > Pynchon, Dick, or Cortazar give that dude the brown
: > mouth.
:
: the fact that you called Kerouac an idiot is incredible. He is one of
: the most important literary figures of the 20th century. His free flow
: style of writing was revolutionary and his social commentary on America
: and American values was very insightful. Kerouac (along with allen
: ginsberg) was also pushing the boundaries of what could and could not be
: said, and without them the use of the word "fuck" today might not be as
: accepted. oh, and they helped bring along the sexual revolution of the
: 60's as well. By calling Kerouac an idiot you are jut exposing your
: own ignorance, and thats not cool.
O so stream of thought originated with Kerouac in the 60s? Please. Burroughs
is the only one of those beat motherphuckers who's really worth something.
I think Appollinaire went alot further then Kerouac ever did in as much as
outright otherwise offensive dadaism (he's got this dadaist porn novella, the
name of which escapes me at the moment), and Bataille as well, and both of
them predate that Kerouac by quite a bit. There's nothing revolutionary about
him stylistically (whatever free-flow-ness he employs is surely encompassed
by the achievements of the turn of the century free-flow-er's) and he doesn't
have much to say content wise either. Basically, it's pulp for the iconoclastic
adolescent, just like ElP. It's value to these adolescents is one of
identification, and not as literature (or as music). Basically, people jock
both of these motherphuckers too much for the wrong reasons peace.
If you told me that you read Kerouac or listen to ElP cause it's fun, you'd
have a much stronger arguement (in fact, that's why I'd do either). But as it
is everyone alludes vaguely to some greater revolutionary importance of both
of these motherphuckers, and there's really little to support that, and I can
only speculate at what pretentious motivations you might have for proposing as
much.
peace
(a cat who still gets hype off some of those Funcrusher/Indelibles cuts)
--
Todd Ito
: I think Friedman's point is that Elp's superficially cryptic. Which means, ok,
: you rewind it, and once you make out what he said, you know what was meant by
: it. It's yet another matter to have parsed the lyrics and still find new
: interpretations with new listenings. Its yet another matter for the MC to have
: something to say musically. It's yet another thing for the MC to actually be
: encoding some insight in his shit. I listen to him from the point of view of
: superficiality by profundity. Or maybe he's a dadaist or something. And that's
: all good. But he doesn't operate at too many levels. Besides, his boy menelik
: surpasses him both as a superscientific dadaist (now that's some encoding)
: and as a stylist. And Divine Styler was obscurely encoded long before ElP
: got into his thing, except there was some coherence at the end if you bothered
: with the decoding.
: In short, Elp's strength is that he is accessible without sounding overtly
: accessible. Kinda like Nietzche's conception of the feminine.
Whoa. I understood all of your points, but this is a hip-hop newsgroup,
not a graduate seminar. "Superficiality by profundity?" "Superscientific
dadaist?" "Nietzche's conception of the feminine?" And you accuse El-P
of using big words where he could be more straightforward. I agree that
it often takes multiple listens to fully understand what El-P is saying,
but, if you do so, a lot of the shit he says makes sense. So, the
argument that he spits nonsense and misuses words ala Raekwon or
Cappadonna is bullshit. El-P does make sense, and I personally think that
the fact that his lyrics are not immediately obvious is a good thing,
because he has a unique style. So what if his flow doesn't swing or if
it's sometimes sloppy? He says dope shit, and I think he sounds dope
saying it. There. If you don't agree, then, fine, you don't agree, but
don't try to tear him down just because you and your favorite
under-underground emcee don't like him. Also, what is the point of saying
Divine Styler did the same thing as El-P (which I don't agree with) before
El-P did? Is there only room enough for one "abstract" lyricist in
hip-hop? Should we diss every emcee who was influenced by Rakim because
they're not original enough? Your argument doesn't make sense. Also, one
last thing, why all this dissing of El-P when there are so many, much
wacker "abstract" rappers out there, ie Phoenix Orion, Esoteric, etc?
Maybe because they aren't popular enough to warrant a backlash?
Todd
B. David Harrison
> wasn't trying to say that el-p is trying to be profound. just a
> back-handed attempt to ask if people respect Acey less because he's not
> as overwrought as el-p.
Nope. Acey's much doper than El-P, but not because of complexity or
anything. Acey's album just pushes boundries so much and is still so
good. That's why, to me, it's amazing. It's one thing to be out there
(like Kool Keith) but to be out there and good is very impressive.
I don't think that El-P is out there. He's doing the same things that
Acey does. Really I think Co Flow's stuff is still fairly conventional
compare to Acey. It's just that it's music for heads, whereas Acey is
music for everybody that heads really dig.
Question: What did El-P do to piss off Sole anyway?
Richard D. Allen
1) I looked at this thread on DejaNews and it has 75 or so
responses. Here in my newsreader it's got 36. Those are some leaky-ass
pipes.
2) What we have here is yet another manifestation of one person
trying to "out-indie" one another. I have run into this phenomenon among
jazz heads and indie-rock fans over and over again, and now it's rampant
in underground hip-hop.
This is where you have to let everyone know that you've "moved
past" whatever it is they like and have now found the "real deal,"
whatever it may be, and that this discovery somehow distinguishes you as
having a better critical sensibility than someone else.
After years of hearing people say "oh, that Magic Hour is okay but
the first Crystallized Movements album was so much better" and "Monk is a
good introduction, I suppose, but Cecil Taylor was the real innovator"
hearing some guy tell me that El-P's "innovations" are tired compared to a
reputed supergroup of mcs I've never heard that has no records out (Deep
Puddle Dynamics) is more of the same old, same old. Some people need to
get over themselves.
--
Richard Allen
aug...@email.unc.edu
JONM AYTAC
: Question: What did El-P do to piss off Sole anyway?
Apparently, among other things, he black balled him and tried to physically
intimidate him as well as drag his good name through the mud. Of course, it's
all second hand info coming from me. But that's what I gather (in part from
the lyrics to that shit).
peace
--