Wise Intelligence (Attn Quest)
beezer
PRT frontman speaks sense and unity.
Pick your fights.
bse
The Ranger
> http://www.ballerstatus.com/article/editorialscolumns/2007/08/2947/in...
>
> PRT frontman speaks sense and unity.
>
> Pick your fights.
I like a lot of what he's saying there, but I think he skims over the
content differences too quickly. I'd rather hear someone rap about
"magical amulets, funny-colored weed, and how they'll take out any
mainstream or commercial rapper" than more of the same tired money and
violence rhymes. If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
shit. Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
in the eighties? Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes
because that's how you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting
like that because it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?
TJ Xenos
> http://www.ballerstatus.com/article/editorialscolumns/2007/08/2947/in...
>
>
> Pick your fights.
>
> bse
That's some real spit.
suntzu
> On Aug 24, 4:55 am, beezer <beez...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.ballerstatus.com/article/editorialscolumns/2007/08/2947/in...
>>
>> PRT frontman speaks sense and unity.
>>
>> Pick your fights.
>
> I like a lot of what he's saying there, but I think he skims over the
> content differences too quickly. I'd rather hear someone rap about
> "magical amulets, funny-colored weed, and how they'll take out any
> mainstream or commercial rapper" than more of the same tired money and
> violence rhymes.
yeah, that's fine to prefer one over the other, but that doesn't make
one more legit than the other. you may not like it as much, it may be
farther from what most people consider to be "objectively good"
(whatever that is, but that's a whole other thread), but that doesn't
kick it out of the genre.
> If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
> but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
> shit.
yeah, and maybe the mainstream's worse than the underground in this
respect, but i don't think by much. there's a lot of boring shit out
there, because not that many people are that original and entertaining.
> Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> in the eighties?
i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
besides that, drug dealers and the violence that surrounds them are the
result of a few decades of willful naivety and while full on
legalization wouldn't solve all our problems overnight. criminalization
is an obvious failure, and we could really do something significant
about violent crime, prison populations, and health in general if we
took a more scientific and compassionate (and less moralistic) approach
to drugs.
> Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes
> because that's how you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting
> like that because it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?
>
that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
suntzu
> legalization wouldn't solve all our problems overnight. criminalization
sorry, that should've been a comma, not a period
The Ranger
<sun...@removethispart.freeshell.andthistoo.org> wrote:
> The Ranger wrote:
> > On Aug 24, 4:55 am, beezer <beez...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.ballerstatus.com/article/editorialscolumns/2007/08/2947/in...
>
> >> PRT frontman speaks sense and unity.
>
> >> Pick your fights.
>
> > I like a lot of what he's saying there, but I think he skims over the
> > content differences too quickly. I'd rather hear someone rap about
> > "magical amulets, funny-colored weed, and how they'll take out any
> > mainstream or commercial rapper" than more of the same tired money and
> > violence rhymes.
>
> yeah, that's fine to prefer one over the other, but that doesn't make
> one more legit than the other. you may not like it as much, it may be
> farther from what most people consider to be "objectively good"
> (whatever that is, but that's a whole other thread), but that doesn't
> kick it out of the genre.
Yeah, I wasn't kicking anything out of the genre. I'm not one of those
fools saying this or that isn't "real hiphop". I was just pointing out
that WI seemed to skim over the difference in lyrical content between
the mainstream and underground. I think the lyrics are the main thing
that seperates the fans. Underground kids will tend to like stuff that
sounds intellectual (even if it's not really) and despise raps about
guns, money and bitches.
And of course there's plenty of "underground" hiphop that dwells on
the same themes that a lot of the mainstream stuff does. Usually does
it much better in fact.
> > If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
> > but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
> > shit.
>
> yeah, and maybe the mainstream's worse than the underground in this
> respect, but i don't think by much. there's a lot of boring shit out
> there, because not that many people are that original and entertaining.
Which is why I tend to always go back to my old "golden era" albums.
It was much easier to be original back then and rappers weren't too
tough to be entertainers.
> > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > in the eighties?
>
> i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
attention?
> besides that, drug dealers and the violence that surrounds them are the
> result of a few decades of willful naivety and while full on
> legalization wouldn't solve all our problems overnight. criminalization
> is an obvious failure, and we could really do something significant
> about violent crime, prison populations, and health in general if we
> took a more scientific and compassionate (and less moralistic) approach
> to drugs.
>
> > Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes
> > because that's how you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting
> > like that because it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?
>
> that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
> misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
I don't know what it's like where you're from, but there are plenty of
kids in my neighbourhood hanging out in parks or on the street trying
to act like their favourite rapper. It wasn't like that 20 years ago.
Kids will be kids but when they are idolizing 50 instead of Chuck,
they are gonna act differently. There's a lot more at work than just
whose music they are listening to, of course. It's just one symptom of
how our society is self-destructing. But the world would be a slightly
better place if all those kids were listening to MF Doom instead.
quest19...@webtv.net
<<Pick your fights.>>
I don't know where you're going with this, but, I agree with all that he
said. I read this article on Davey D's website last week. You know the
main part of his article dealt with balance...and there isn't any in the
main. And unknown artists are relegated to an "underground" by default.
I always say, "so-called" underground or gangsta because there was no
such labeling back in the "golden era". If you've been on here a while,
you'd have to yield to the fact that most(if not all) his points are my
points. Naming names is just the simplest way to get a point across or
to use a for instance. Today, kids want to be subliminal and that's not
me. It's still a dope or wack thing to me, underground or commercial.
But in my view, it's the groups that you don't hear about that seem to
be fresher than the ones that are rammed down your throat on the radio.
There are no fights to pick as if you didn't know any better, he would
be me(or close to it) if he were in this newsgroup. He knows his
history, speaks his clout from that perspective and is non-apologetic
for his views. Problem here is that ALL the time, someone else takes my
view to heart and makes it personal. No one here can ever say that I've
ever kicked off a personal thing because of an opinion equivocal to
mine. I don't get down like that, your opinion is yours based on your
experience. I'm 40 and you have early 20s here, too. It's not a
johnny-come-lately thing, but on the other hand, it is. Just today at
work, a 19 year old asked me who DJ Premier was. With questions like
that, you can see where there's a gulf in a culture that's less than my
age. However, it was a good read and pretty close to what I'd write, but
in true Hip Hop fashion, I'd probably say a wack rappers name and stand
by it.
quest19...@webtv.net
<<If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay, but most of the
"mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring shit. Is society
producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was in the eighties?
Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes because that's how
you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting like that because
it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?>>
Yes, cool. But really....I mean really, most of it will never be done
with either of what you say here. It doesn't "sell" apparently. And yes,
it's arguable that society as degraded itself steadily since the advent
of the phrase "gangsta rap". Your questions are the ones that no one
wants to step to. For instance, everybody saw R. Kelly golden shower
that little girl, yet this dude still goes platinum. Even if she's buck
wild, HE should've known better. It's whatever, for for real. But if
we're going to "keep it real" and stay true to Hip Hop's mantra of "each
one, teach one" you have to take it there regardless whether
narrow-minded people like it. Good post.
suntzu
a) did you catch the part where he said he likes 50?
b) do you think any of the people disagreeing with you would ask
anything close to "who's dj premier"?
beezer
> > yeah, that's fine to prefer one over the other, but that doesn't make
> > one more legit than the other. you may not like it as much, it may be
> > farther from what most people consider to be "objectively good"
> > (whatever that is, but that's a whole other thread), but that doesn't
> > kick it out of the genre.
>
> Yeah, I wasn't kicking anything out of the genre. I'm not one of those
> fools saying this or that isn't "real hiphop". I was just pointing out
> that WI seemed to skim over the difference in lyrical content between
> the mainstream and underground. I think the lyrics are the main thing
> that seperates the fans. Underground kids will tend to like stuff that
> sounds intellectual (even if it's not really) and despise raps about
> guns, money and bitches.
See I disagree with this. I think the pseudo-intellectual rap is a
really small part of the underground. I think most of the underground
just kick brag raps, weed raps and smartarse nothing raps. I find the
shit the most boring of all cos its exactly the stuff that was rinsed
during the "golden age". To me thats the most played stuff of all.
> > > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > > in the eighties?
>
> > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> attention?
Crack dealers became unemployed so they had to rap?
> > that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
> > misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
>
> I don't know what it's like where you're from, but there are plenty of
> kids in my neighbourhood hanging out in parks or on the street trying
> to act like their favourite rapper. It wasn't like that 20 years ago.
> Kids will be kids but when they are idolizing 50 instead of Chuck,
> they are gonna act differently. There's a lot more at work than just
> whose music they are listening to, of course. It's just one symptom of
> how our society is self-destructing. But the world would be a slightly
> better place if all those kids were listening to MF Doom instead.
I don't know how hard you listen to MF DOOM but he pretty specifically
says he dealt drugs to get by, got incarcerated and carried guns
during the mid 90s. I know he says it in a different way but this is
EXACTLY what Wise is talking about. Some MF fans think he is something
other than what he is. He isn't saying "be a good boy like me". Listen
to Doomsday or the first Grimm LP. Those fellas were hoods. Straight
up.
bse
beezer
> The Ranger rightly asks:
> <<If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay, but most of the
> "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring shit. Is society
> producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was in the eighties?
> Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes because that's how
> you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting like that because
> it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?>>
>
> Yes, cool. But really....I mean really, most of it will never be done
> with either of what you say here. It doesn't "sell" apparently.
Kanye?
bse
beezer
> beezer admonishes:
> <<Pick your fights.>>
>
> I don't know where you're going with this, but, I agree with all that he
> said. I read this article on Davey D's website last week. You know the
> main part of his article dealt with balance...and there isn't any in the
> main. And unknown artists are relegated to an "underground" by default.
> I always say, "so-called" underground or gangsta because there was no
> such labeling back in the "golden era". If you've been on here a while,
> you'd have to yield to the fact that most(if not all) his points are my
> points. Naming names is just the simplest way to get a point across or
> to use a for instance. Today, kids want to be subliminal and that's not
> me. It's still a dope or wack thing to me, underground or commercial.
> But in my view, it's the groups that you don't hear about that seem to
> be fresher than the ones that are rammed down your throat on the radio.
> There are no fights to pick as if you didn't know any better, he would
> be me(or close to it) if he were in this newsgroup.
The central point of his article was "stop saying so and so isn't
Hiphop" which is something you do all the time. Just cos you agree
with some other shit he thinks doesn't make you anything but miles
from Wise. He spends a good deal of his time speaking up for the
merits of T.I., 50, Jay etc. You spend most of your time slandering
them.
> He knows his
> history, speaks his clout from that perspective and is non-apologetic
> for his views. Problem here is that ALL the time, someone else takes my
> view to heart and makes it personal. No one here can ever say that I've
> ever kicked off a personal thing because of an opinion equivocal to
> mine. I don't get down like that, your opinion is yours based on your
> experience. I'm 40 and you have early 20s here, too. It's not a
> johnny-come-lately thing, but on the other hand, it is. Just today at
> work, a 19 year old asked me who DJ Premier was. With questions like
> that, you can see where there's a gulf in a culture that's less than my
> age. However, it was a good read and pretty close to what I'd write, but
> in true Hip Hop fashion, I'd probably say a wack rappers name and stand
> by it.
Why on earth should a 19 year old know Premier if they're not some
pupil of the game? They're just some regular kid, what the fuck do
they need to know about a dude who hasn't produced a whole album for a
decade? Who doesn't court press, isn't overly self-agrandising etc
etc. Seriously man, if Primo was worried about 19 year old kids
knowing him then he would do something about it. He's not. He has his
constituency and they know him well.
Don't be a tool.
bse
The Ranger
> On 24 Aug, 05:21, The Ranger <sedgwickave...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > yeah, that's fine to prefer one over the other, but that doesn't make
> > > one more legit than the other. you may not like it as much, it may be
> > > farther from what most people consider to be "objectively good"
> > > (whatever that is, but that's a whole other thread), but that doesn't
> > > kick it out of the genre.
>
> > Yeah, I wasn't kicking anything out of the genre. I'm not one of those
> > fools saying this or that isn't "real hiphop". I was just pointing out
> > that WI seemed to skim over the difference in lyrical content between
> > the mainstream and underground. I think the lyrics are the main thing
> > that seperates the fans. Underground kids will tend to like stuff that
> > sounds intellectual (even if it's not really) and despise raps about
> > guns, money and bitches.
>
> See I disagree with this. I think the pseudo-intellectual rap is a
> really small part of the underground. I think most of the underground
> just kick brag raps, weed raps and smartarse nothing raps. I find the
> shit the most boring of all cos its exactly the stuff that was rinsed
> during the "golden age". To me thats the most played stuff of all.
Maybe, but there's still a significant difference in lyrical content
between the "underground" and "mainstream". Wise was saying that
lyrically they were the same (both saying pretty much nothing). I
liked a lot of what he said but to pretend that there's no difference
lyrically and that it's about snaps or snares or fashion sense...I
don't think that's really accurate. Anyone that's saying someone is
not real hiphop based on those things is obviously an idiot. But I
think a lot more people shun the mainstream because of the lyrical
subject matter.
>
> > > > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > > > in the eighties?
>
> > > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> > Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> > now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> > styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> > attention?
>
> Crack dealers became unemployed so they had to rap?
And they were better at it than the guys that would have chosen to rap
anyway and not just cause their first career choice became obsolete?
> > > that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
> > > misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
>
> > I don't know what it's like where you're from, but there are plenty of
> > kids in my neighbourhood hanging out in parks or on the street trying
> > to act like their favourite rapper. It wasn't like that 20 years ago.
> > Kids will be kids but when they are idolizing 50 instead of Chuck,
> > they are gonna act differently. There's a lot more at work than just
> > whose music they are listening to, of course. It's just one symptom of
> > how our society is self-destructing. But the world would be a slightly
> > better place if all those kids were listening to MF Doom instead.
>
> I don't know how hard you listen to MF DOOM but he pretty specifically
> says he dealt drugs to get by, got incarcerated and carried guns
> during the mid 90s. I know he says it in a different way but this is
> EXACTLY what Wise is talking about. Some MF fans think he is something
> other than what he is. He isn't saying "be a good boy like me". Listen
> to Doomsday or the first Grimm LP. Those fellas were hoods. Straight
> up.
But his music doesn't glorify that lifestyle. These kids I'm talking
about are caught up in some thug fantasy bullshit. 20 years ago some
of them still would have been acting the same (but would have had NWA
as role models instead) but some of them would have been into PE or LL
or Rakim and with those guys as role models wouldn't be acting like
such dickheads.
TJ Xenos
Actually its the perception of the music that divides fans. As you
said they like stuff that "sounds" intellectual, as opposed to shit
that actually is intellectual. And I do not understand how anyone can
not like money or women, unless they're a monk.
>
> And of course there's plenty of "underground" hiphop that dwells on
> the same themes that a lot of the mainstream stuff does. Usually does
> it much better in fact.
I call bullshit.
> > > If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
> > > but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
> > > shit.
>
> > yeah, and maybe the mainstream's worse than the underground in this
> > respect, but i don't think by much. there's a lot of boring shit out
> > there, because not that many people are that original and entertaining.
>
> Which is why I tend to always go back to my old "golden era" albums.
> It was much easier to be original back then and rappers weren't too
> tough to be entertainers.
You go back to them because of the place they have in your memory due
to when and where you heard them. Most of that shit sucks.
>
> > > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > > in the eighties?
>
> > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> attention?
Because there was more money in drugs then, whereas now theres a
million more people in the game and too many snitches so getting out
of the drug game and into something else that you have some skill and
interest in (hello rapping) is a much better look.
> > besides that, drug dealers and the violence that surrounds them are the
> > result of a few decades of willful naivety and while full on
> > legalization wouldn't solve all our problems overnight. criminalization
> > is an obvious failure, and we could really do something significant
> > about violent crime, prison populations, and health in general if we
> > took a more scientific and compassionate (and less moralistic) approach
> > to drugs.
>
> > > Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes
> > > because that's how you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting
> > > like that because it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?
>
> > that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
> > misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
>
> I don't know what it's like where you're from, but there are plenty of
> kids in my neighbourhood hanging out in parks or on the street trying
> to act like their favourite rapper. It wasn't like that 20 years ago.
> Kids will be kids but when they are idolizing 50 instead of Chuck,
> they are gonna act differently. There's a lot more at work than just
> whose music they are listening to, of course. It's just one symptom of
> how our society is self-destructing. But the world would be a slightly
> better place if all those kids were listening to MF Doom instead.
Take the rose colored glasses off.
TJ Xenos
*The ownerz was 2003 beez
TJ Xenos
Actually 20 years ago, a larger chunk of them wouldnt be listening to
PE or LL or Rakim, they'd be listening to hair metal bands that did
nothing but drink liquor sniff coke and violate groupies. As many
people listen to common now than ever listened to Rakim. Real talk.
Between the two of them, one album has sold platinum, and it took
paid in full almost a decade to do so. Be was certified gold almost
immediately. That means theres half a mil actively seeking out
commons shit whereas PIF probably had numerous copies being rebought,
and the album being discovered by new fans to replace the ones who had
listened to it a decade earlier. Also, straight outta compton was
platinum almost immediately. As for LL, I definitely think we need
more dudes fronting like they're nice guys so they can get girls, and
having such bad sex addictions they have to get off the bus every stop
to go jack off in an alley.
The Ranger
Yeah, the perception. Whatever. I'm saying it's more about the lyrics
than it is about snaps vs snares.
> > And of course there's plenty of "underground" hiphop that dwells on
> > the same themes that a lot of the mainstream stuff does. Usually does
> > it much better in fact.
>
> I call bullshit.
That's funny because I was talking about the music that you listen to.
I've never heard of most of the stuff you talk about which means it's
probably not mainstream. From what I can gather almost no-one outside
the region it comes from has ever heard of most of that stuff. From
the little I've heard and the lines you quote, it sounds a lot more
insightful and deep than the mainstream hits that deal with similar
subject matter.
> > > > If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
> > > > but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
> > > > shit.
>
> > > yeah, and maybe the mainstream's worse than the underground in this
> > > respect, but i don't think by much. there's a lot of boring shit out
> > > there, because not that many people are that original and entertaining.
>
> > Which is why I tend to always go back to my old "golden era" albums.
> > It was much easier to be original back then and rappers weren't too
> > tough to be entertainers.
>
> You go back to them because of the place they have in your memory due
> to when and where you heard them. Most of that shit sucks.
Except for the last sentence, you are right. But you can't deny that
being original (as far as lyrical content goes at least) gets more and
more difficult as time passes. It seems like everything's been said
before. When I was a youngster, that wasn't so much the case. I go
back to it because to me that's when hiphop was new and different and
interesting. I'm still open to listen to new music but very little
blows me away now. So I go back to the stuff that did.
> > > > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > > > in the eighties?
>
> > > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> > Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> > now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> > styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> > attention?
>
> Because there was more money in drugs then, whereas now theres a
> million more people in the game and too many snitches so getting out
> of the drug game and into something else that you have some skill and
> interest in (hello rapping) is a much better look.
So there's less money in drugs but more money in rapping about drugs.
What I'm saying is that while the drug problem has eased in society,
in hiphop its exposure has multiplied to the point where it eclipses
all other subject matter. It's ridiculous.
> > > besides that, drug dealers and the violence that surrounds them are the
> > > result of a few decades of willful naivety and while full on
> > > legalization wouldn't solve all our problems overnight. criminalization
> > > is an obvious failure, and we could really do something significant
> > > about violent crime, prison populations, and health in general if we
> > > took a more scientific and compassionate (and less moralistic) approach
> > > to drugs.
>
> > > > Or are we just seeing more rappers on those themes
> > > > because that's how you sell records. Or even worse, are people acting
> > > > like that because it's become cool to be a violent, misogynistic tool?
>
> > > that last sentence sounds uncomfortably close to the arguments a lot of
> > > misguided parents and teachers when i was a kid.
>
> > I don't know what it's like where you're from, but there are plenty of
> > kids in my neighbourhood hanging out in parks or on the street trying
> > to act like their favourite rapper. It wasn't like that 20 years ago.
> > Kids will be kids but when they are idolizing 50 instead of Chuck,
> > they are gonna act differently. There's a lot more at work than just
> > whose music they are listening to, of course. It's just one symptom of
> > how our society is self-destructing. But the world would be a slightly
> > better place if all those kids were listening to MF Doom instead.
>
> Take the rose colored glasses off.
Why rose-coloured glasses? Kids imitate their role models. If they
think 50 cent is cool they're gonna act like thugs. If they were
looking up to Common instead, they'd be sitting in the park eating
guava and shit. I'm realistic and I realise that's never gonna happen.
I acknowledged that kids were doing the same thing back in the day
with NWA. But there was more diversity and some of those kids instead
of acting hard would be trying to do the running man.
The Ranger
Not the kids I'm talking about. The kids that hang out in the streets
or the park near my home acting like gangstas are mostly immigrants
from Africa, Pacific Islanders, Maoris and Aborigines. 20 years ago
there weren't so many African immigrants here but the other groups
were more likely to be into PE than Poison.
> As many
> people listen to common now than ever listened to Rakim. Real talk.
> Between the two of them, one album has sold platinum, and it took
> paid in full almost a decade to do so. Be was certified gold almost
> immediately. That means theres half a mil actively seeking out
> commons shit whereas PIF probably had numerous copies being rebought,
> and the album being discovered by new fans to replace the ones who had
> listened to it a decade earlier. Also, straight outta compton was
> platinum almost immediately.
I don't want to compare sales. It's irrelevant. All I'm saying is that
20 years ago being into hiphop didn't mean there was a 50% chance you
were a thug wannabe. People listened to NWA, BDP, Run DMC, Jazzy Jeff
& Fresh Prince. You didn't have to front like you were hard. I've
worked with a lot of the kids I'm talking about and they're normal
kids when you get them one on one. But put them in the park with their
buddies and the boombox playing some 50 cent wackness and they turn
into dickheads. The ones I know are embarrassed when I walk past them
in the park and they're swearing and drinking and intimidating folks,
but they think they have to act like that to be cool.
>As for LL, I definitely think we need
> more dudes fronting like they're nice guys so they can get girls, and
> having such bad sex addictions they have to get off the bus every stop
> to go jack off in an alley.
Hmmm. Well that explains my life. Curse you James Todd Smith!
Tim Schnetgoeke
> It seems like everything's been said
> before.
this is more a poor excuse than an actual argument. i bet you could
trace it back to some ancient greek saying this. everything has been
done and said before. until somebody comes up with something new.
and i'd really like to use this as an argument on numerous occasions.
but it's bullshit - you just have to try harder.
peace.
tim
The Ranger
wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible to say something new, just that it's
harder to be original. Of course it is. In 1980 it would be easy to be
the first emcee to rap about a particular subject. In 2007, it's not
so easy. It's harder to shock people now with lyrics because rappers
have already made careers out of saying the foulest shit they can
think of. If you're gonna rap about dealing then you have to have more
creativity if you're going to avoid sounding like the million other
rappers that went before you. It's not impossible, it's just a lot
harder and I don't hear someone saying something new as often as I did
back then. Part of that is because I was young, but it's also because
when say, 2 live crew came out, no-one had said shit like that on a
rap record before. (Cue some rap history buff naming an earlier artist
with equally obscene sex rhymes)
beezer
ha. I'd forgotten about Gang Starr. I dislike Guru so much these days
I've managed to disassociate him from Primo completely in my head.
Funny.
bse
beezer
> On Aug 24, 10:57 pm, TJ Xenos <talvi...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > But his music doesn't glorify that lifestyle. These kids I'm talking
> > > about are caught up in some thug fantasy bullshit. 20 years ago some
> > > of them still would have been acting the same (but would have had NWA
> > > as role models instead) but some of them would have been into PE or LL
> > > or Rakim and with those guys as role models wouldn't be acting like
> > > such dickheads.
See I think theres an important distinction to be made between
Hiphoppers then and Hiphoppers now. Hiphoppers now are not the same
constituency multiplied by ten they are the same constituency plus a
whole lot of other people who got into HIphop as it grew. It got big
enough to cover a lot of people it didn't cover before. So I don't
think you can compare it in that same way.
If you take London for instance, and I'd imagine the same shit goes
for Toronto or Brooklyn, 20 years ago the thugs, gunmen and thieves of
a black-music-listening persuasion were more likely to be listening to
Ragga/Dancehall than Hiphop. Now that Hiphop is so massive and has
taken the (ever present since the 50s at least) crime music into the
mainstream media channels, those people are more likely to be
listening to Hiphop. Does this mean that Hiphoppers have changed or
does it mean their ranks have been swelled by consituencies previously
catered to by other musics? You tell me.
> >As for LL, I definitely think we need
> > more dudes fronting like they're nice guys so they can get girls, and
> > having such bad sex addictions they have to get off the bus every stop
> > to go jack off in an alley.
>
> Hmmm. Well that explains my life. Curse you James Todd Smith!
Funniest shit in ages.
bse
TJ Xenos
Except the point that myself and wise are making is the only
difference lyrically is in the heads of kids who are trying to call
the other crew "not real hiphop".
> > > And of course there's plenty of "underground" hiphop that dwells on
> > > the same themes that a lot of the mainstream stuff does. Usually does
> > > it much better in fact.
>
> > I call bullshit.
>
> That's funny because I was talking about the music that you listen to.
> I've never heard of most of the stuff you talk about which means it's
> probably not mainstream. From what I can gather almost no-one outside
> the region it comes from has ever heard of most of that stuff. From
> the little I've heard and the lines you quote, it sounds a lot more
> insightful and deep than the mainstream hits that deal with similar
> subject matter.
I'd suggest theres a large difference between "underground" music and
"regional" music. Underground music has the pretense of not wanting
to be successful (so long as they're still eating good off the
music). In other words, they want the perception of not being
successful.
> > > > > If the latter is done with heart and insight, okay,
> > > > > but most of the "mainstream" stuff I hear is just the same boring
> > > > > shit.
>
> > > > yeah, and maybe the mainstream's worse than the underground in this
> > > > respect, but i don't think by much. there's a lot of boring shit out
> > > > there, because not that many people are that original and entertaining.
>
> > > Which is why I tend to always go back to my old "golden era" albums.
> > > It was much easier to be original back then and rappers weren't too
> > > tough to be entertainers.
>
> > You go back to them because of the place they have in your memory due
> > to when and where you heard them. Most of that shit sucks.
>
> Except for the last sentence, you are right. But you can't deny that
> being original (as far as lyrical content goes at least) gets more and
> more difficult as time passes. It seems like everything's been said
> before. When I was a youngster, that wasn't so much the case. I go
> back to it because to me that's when hiphop was new and different and
> interesting. I'm still open to listen to new music but very little
> blows me away now. So I go back to the stuff that did.
What was original about hiphop in the 80s other than the sonic
aspects? NO ONE has ever talked on anything that hasnt been talked on
before. There was thousands of years of culture prior to hiphop. All
hiphop did was take what had already been siad and put a different
beat to it. A bunch of pretentious twats thought the ideas were what
made them original and not the context/sound, so when someone came and
did the same thing YET AGAIN with another different sound, they
complained about unoriginality. Quit fucking hating and stop acting
like you invented the wheel because you didn't.
> > > > > Is society producing more thugs and drug dealers now than it was
> > > > > in the eighties?
>
> > > > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > > > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> > > Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> > > now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> > > styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> > > attention?
>
> > Because there was more money in drugs then, whereas now theres a
> > million more people in the game and too many snitches so getting out
> > of the drug game and into something else that you have some skill and
> > interest in (hello rapping) is a much better look.
>
> So there's less money in drugs but more money in rapping about drugs.
> What I'm saying is that while the drug problem has eased in society,
> in hiphop its exposure has multiplied to the point where it eclipses
> all other subject matter. It's ridiculous.
So it was better when everyone was closet junkies and drugs were taboo
is what you're saying? Just like tv was bettewr when the cleavers
slept in seperate beds and people pretended sex didnt happen? The
only difference is drugs have become much less taboo and no longer
turn one into an utter social pariah. In other words, people are able
to keep it more real now because there is less prejudice towards
them. MF doom doesnt rap about selling drugs because when he came up
that was considered as bad as being a racist.
Art imitates life, not the other way around. It was the same in the
80s. Its just easier to try to blame hiphop now because it allows the
opportunity for those with authority to place the onus elsewhere for
their failings and inability to solve problems that have existed since
the beginning of society.
TJ Xenos
Theres nothing original about combining 2 things that had already been
done before. Being the first dude to rap about something thats been
sung about when dudes are already rapping doesnt make you original.
You took one dudes steez and added another dudes lyrics and claimed to
have something new, but ehhhhhh no.
TJ Xenos
I forgot you're in a 3rd world country thats still getting into the
20th century. obviously your milage will vary, however what you
describe sounds like america 20 years ago...
>
> > As many
> > people listen to common now than ever listened to Rakim. Real talk.
> > Between the two of them, one album has sold platinum, and it took
> > paid in full almost a decade to do so. Be was certified gold almost
> > immediately. That means theres half a mil actively seeking out
> > commons shit whereas PIF probably had numerous copies being rebought,
> > and the album being discovered by new fans to replace the ones who had
> > listened to it a decade earlier. Also, straight outta compton was
> > platinum almost immediately.
>
> I don't want to compare sales. It's irrelevant. All I'm saying is that
> 20 years ago being into hiphop didn't mean there was a 50% chance you
> were a thug wannabe. People listened to NWA, BDP, Run DMC, Jazzy Jeff
> & Fresh Prince. You didn't have to front like you were hard. I've
> worked with a lot of the kids I'm talking about and they're normal
> kids when you get them one on one. But put them in the park with their
> buddies and the boombox playing some 50 cent wackness and they turn
> into dickheads. The ones I know are embarrassed when I walk past them
> in the park and they're swearing and drinking and intimidating folks,
> but they think they have to act like that to be cool.
So moking and drinking and cursing makes you "gangster"?????? Coz my
grandfather was doing that in the 30s...
TJ Xenos
wrote:
Although you call bullshit on tims argument you don't present any
HONESTLY new idea thats been presented in the last 30 years....
ILL
> I don't want to compare sales. It's irrelevant. All I'm saying is that
> 20 years ago being into hiphop didn't mean there was a 50% chance you
> were a thug wannabe. People listened to NWA, BDP, Run DMC, Jazzy Jeff
> & Fresh Prince. You didn't have to front like you were hard. I've
> worked with a lot of the kids I'm talking about and they're normal
> kids when you get them one on one. But put them in the park with their
> buddies and the boombox playing some 50 cent wackness and they turn
> into dickheads. The ones I know are embarrassed when I walk past them
> in the park and they're swearing and drinking and intimidating folks,
> but they think they have to act like that to be cool.
You're blaming hip-hop for changes that are deeper in the society. The
kids would be acting up even if they listened to artists you list. And
if hip-hop didn't provide them with the soundtrack they'd listen to
summin else.
ILL
The Ranger
And the point I'm making is that that's bullshit. I'm not on either
side calling anyone anything. I'm just saying the difference is real.
They both may be ultimately rapping about nothing but they're doing it
in completely different ways.
> > > > And of course there's plenty of "underground" hiphop that dwells on
> > > > the same themes that a lot of the mainstream stuff does. Usually does
> > > > it much better in fact.
>
> > > I call bullshit.
>
> > That's funny because I was talking about the music that you listen to.
> > I've never heard of most of the stuff you talk about which means it's
> > probably not mainstream. From what I can gather almost no-one outside
> > the region it comes from has ever heard of most of that stuff. From
> > the little I've heard and the lines you quote, it sounds a lot more
> > insightful and deep than the mainstream hits that deal with similar
> > subject matter.
>
> I'd suggest theres a large difference between "underground" music and
> "regional" music. Underground music has the pretense of not wanting
> to be successful (so long as they're still eating good off the
> music). In other words, they want the perception of not being
> successful.
Okay, so you have a much narrower definition of underground than I do.
Maybe mine's wrong, but I just take it to mean any music that isn't
aiming for broad appeal. So a lot of "regional" music qualifies.
I'm not hating. Tell me there's not a bigger difference between hiphop
in the 80s and any music of the 60s and 70s than there is between
today's hiphop and 80s hiphop. In the 60s and 70s no-one sounded
anything like PE or Rakim or Slick Rick (if you disagree, name
names...and it's gotta be an artist as similar to those guys as
today's rappers are). It was a younger art form in the 80s and of
course parts of it were borrowed from other genres and older
traditions but it was a still a revolution in music. Twenty years
later the genre hasn't changed all that much in style, so it's harder
for an artist to come up with something that doesn't sound similar to
something before it.
The Ranger
> > > > > > in the eighties?
>
> > > > > i don't think so. it seems like most studies are saying that violent
> > > > > crime and drug use are both down in the last couple decades.
>
> > > > Right. So why are so many rappers claiming to be thugs and dealers
> > > > now? At the height of the crack epidemic you had all these different
> > > > styles sharing the limelight, so why now do the thugs get most of the
> > > > attention?
>
> > > Because there was more money in drugs then, whereas now theres a
> > > million more people in the game and too many snitches so getting out
> > > of the drug game and into something else that you have some skill and
> > > interest in (hello rapping) is a much better look.
>
> > So there's less money in drugs but more money in rapping about drugs.
> > What I'm saying is that while the drug problem has eased in society,
> > in hiphop its exposure has multiplied to the point where it eclipses
> > all other subject matter. It's ridiculous.
>
> So it was better when everyone was closet junkies and drugs were taboo
> is what you're saying? Just like tv was bettewr when the cleavers
> slept in seperate beds and people pretended sex didnt happen?
Not at all. I'm saying it's ridiculous that every 2nd rapper today is
talking about guns and drugs when there was a lot more diversity when
the gang and drug problems were at their peak. I'm not trying to
censor anyone, but that topic has been covered a billion times
already. A lot of these rappers could be rhyming about something else,
but going on with the same tired shit is more profitable and makes you
look cooler.
>The
> only difference is drugs have become much less taboo and no longer
> turn one into an utter social pariah. In other words, people are able
> to keep it more real now because there is less prejudice towards
> them. MF doom doesnt rap about selling drugs because when he came up
> that was considered as bad as being a racist.
Doom doesn't rap about selling drugs because it's a tired topic and
he's trying to be unique.
I'm not blaming hiphop. I said in an earlier post that it's just a
symptom and that our whole society's self-destructing. Forcing the
radio to only play positive jams isn't going to save the world.
Rampant capitalism and the commercialization of just about everything
is killing us. We're all doomed.
The Ranger
To rap about something that had never been rapped about before is more
original that rapping about it again.
The Ranger
So the Australia of 20 years ago sounds like the America of 20 years
ago? Or are you saying you had lots of Pacific Islanders, Maoris and
Aborigines in America 20 years ago? Not following you here at all.
>
> > > As many
> > > people listen to common now than ever listened to Rakim. Real talk.
> > > Between the two of them, one album has sold platinum, and it took
> > > paid in full almost a decade to do so. Be was certified gold almost
> > > immediately. That means theres half a mil actively seeking out
> > > commons shit whereas PIF probably had numerous copies being rebought,
> > > and the album being discovered by new fans to replace the ones who had
> > > listened to it a decade earlier. Also, straight outta compton was
> > > platinum almost immediately.
>
> > I don't want to compare sales. It's irrelevant. All I'm saying is that
> > 20 years ago being into hiphop didn't mean there was a 50% chance you
> > were a thug wannabe. People listened to NWA, BDP, Run DMC, Jazzy Jeff
> > & Fresh Prince. You didn't have to front like you were hard. I've
> > worked with a lot of the kids I'm talking about and they're normal
> > kids when you get them one on one. But put them in the park with their
> > buddies and the boombox playing some 50 cent wackness and they turn
> > into dickheads. The ones I know are embarrassed when I walk past them
> > in the park and they're swearing and drinking and intimidating folks,
> > but they think they have to act like that to be cool.
>
> So moking and drinking and cursing makes you "gangster"?????? Coz my
> grandfather was doing that in the 30s...
Don't act stupid man. So you're grandfather used to sit in the park
with a boombox playing violent, misogynistic music, drinking and
calling passersby bitches and motherfuckers while writing all over
tables shit like "Big Money Hustlas" and whatever other stupid names
he and his equally broke friends had decided to call themselves?
The Ranger
I think you're confused about who is who here.
The Ranger
I've said in other posts that I don't blame hiphop entirely. But not
all those kids would be acting that way if it wasn't the cool thing to
do. Some would and if necessary they'd find a different soundtrack.
Some are nice kids that are acting like knuckleheads because they
think they have to.
suntzu
> I'm not hating. Tell me there's not a bigger difference between hiphop
> in the 80s and any music of the 60s and 70s than there is between
> today's hiphop and 80s hiphop. In the 60s and 70s no-one sounded
> anything like PE or Rakim or Slick Rick (if you disagree, name
> names...and it's gotta be an artist as similar to those guys as
> today's rappers are). It was a younger art form in the 80s and of
> course parts of it were borrowed from other genres and older
> traditions but it was a still a revolution in music. Twenty years
> later the genre hasn't changed all that much in style, so it's harder
> for an artist to come up with something that doesn't sound similar to
> something before it.
>
i'd agree with you that hip-hop in the 80s was more different than music
of the 60s and 70s than today's hip-hop is from 80s hip-hop. to say
that it hasn't changed all that much in style seems pretty off the mark,
but i still agree with your first point.
anyway, like you say, it was a revolution in music, but that's because
it was a new genre. so obviously, by definition, you're not going to
find that kind of innovation within the genre of hip-hop, because if you
had that level of departure, you'd have a different genre.
so it sounds like you're looking for an exciting new genre. which is
something that doesn't happen very often, but it's not like it won't
happen again. i'd be willing to be that it happens at least a couple
more times within our lives.
suntzu
> i'd be willing to be that it happens at least a couple
> more times within our lives.
willing to bet, i meant
The Ranger
<sun...@removethispart.freeshell.andthistoo.org> wrote:
> The Ranger wrote:
> > I'm not hating. Tell me there's not a bigger difference between hiphop
> > in the 80s and any music of the 60s and 70s than there is between
> > today's hiphop and 80s hiphop. In the 60s and 70s no-one sounded
> > anything like PE or Rakim or Slick Rick (if you disagree, name
> > names...and it's gotta be an artist as similar to those guys as
> > today's rappers are). It was a younger art form in the 80s and of
> > course parts of it were borrowed from other genres and older
> > traditions but it was a still a revolution in music. Twenty years
> > later the genre hasn't changed all that much in style, so it's harder
> > for an artist to come up with something that doesn't sound similar to
> > something before it.
>
> i'd agree with you that hip-hop in the 80s was more different than music
> of the 60s and 70s than today's hip-hop is from 80s hip-hop. to say
> that it hasn't changed all that much in style seems pretty off the mark,
> but i still agree with your first point.
Relatively, I mean. It's obviously changed a lot or we wouldn't be
having this discussion.
> anyway, like you say, it was a revolution in music, but that's because
> it was a new genre. so obviously, by definition, you're not going to
> find that kind of innovation within the genre of hip-hop, because if you
> had that level of departure, you'd have a different genre.
>
> so it sounds like you're looking for an exciting new genre. which is
> something that doesn't happen very often, but it's not like it won't
> happen again. i'd be willing to be that it happens at least a couple
> more times within our lives.
I'm not looking for a new genre. I'm happy listening to what I listen
to. Just sick of people telling me I only like it because of rose
coloured glasses or because I'm forcing myself to like it or whatever.
I just like the style and the vibe of that era. I listen to plenty of
stuff from the years just after that "golden age" but as we get nearer
to the present I listen to less and less new stuff because I just
can't be bothered digging through all the repetitive boring shit to
get to the good stuff.
Although the quality may not be the greatest, I've been getting into a
lot more do-it-yourself hiphop because in some ways it captures that
80s vibe that I loved. Some guy making a beat on fruity loops,
emailing it to another guy who adds a rap from his bedroom and then
giving the shit away as a free mp3. People just making music cause
they love doing it.
TJ Xenos
Or that those things are the bulk of reality for most people in
communities where rappers come from, but in the 80s that was taboo to
tlak about in rap songs. Straight outta compton didnt get played on
MTV for a decade because the lyrics and imagery were too
controversial, however its one of the tamer songs on the genre.
Basically your beef is that gangsta rappers are no longer shut out of
the media like the 80s. Also, not every second rapper is talking
about guns and drugs, maybe the ones whose records people actually buy
are, but I don't blame THEM for the fact that people are more
interested in their lives than in common's.
> >The
> > only difference is drugs have become much less taboo and no longer
> > turn one into an utter social pariah. In other words, people are able
> > to keep it more real now because there is less prejudice towards
> > them. MF doom doesnt rap about selling drugs because when he came up
> > that was considered as bad as being a racist.
>
> Doom doesn't rap about selling drugs because it's a tired topic and
> he's trying to be unique.
LOL. Hes trying to be unique by rapping from the perspective of a
comic book character? I think Dennis Coles called and he wants his
idea back.
Society isnt self destucting. Its always been the same, however
nowadays with more media it can't be swept under the rugp or hidden in
the closet (no homo or R. Kelly)
The Ranger
Communities where rappers come from? What are they being bred on farms
now or something? Rappers come from everywhere. I'm not sure why the
thug types are selling so well. Saying it's because there's some kind
of conspiracy to promote ignorance seems a bit far fetched. I guess
I'll blame the legions of teenage boys who get off on that stuff (like
I did to some extent when I was a teenage boy). It makes sense cause
teenagers are responsible for most of the other crap from other genres
that gets heavy radio play.
>Straight outta compton didnt get played on
> MTV for a decade because the lyrics and imagery were too
> controversial, however its one of the tamer songs on the genre.
> Basically your beef is that gangsta rappers are no longer shut out of
> the media like the 80s. Also, not every second rapper is talking
> about guns and drugs, maybe the ones whose records people actually buy
> are, but I don't blame THEM for the fact that people are more
> interested in their lives than in common's.
I don't want them shut out. I want balance. And I don't really blame
the rappers. I BLAME THE CHILDREN.
> > >The
> > > only difference is drugs have become much less taboo and no longer
> > > turn one into an utter social pariah. In other words, people are able
> > > to keep it more real now because there is less prejudice towards
> > > them. MF doom doesnt rap about selling drugs because when he came up
> > > that was considered as bad as being a racist.
>
> > Doom doesn't rap about selling drugs because it's a tired topic and
> > he's trying to be unique.
>
> LOL. Hes trying to be unique by rapping from the perspective of a
> comic book character? I think Dennis Coles called and he wants his
> idea back.
Well, I said he's "trying" to be unique. As I said earlier, that's
tough when just about everything's been rapped about already. Still,
he's got more of an individual style than most.
Nah, shit's getting worse. People just have no respect for each other
anymore. Parents don't know how to raise their kids. Everyone's
obsessed with money and sex. People are self-centred and have no
concept of community or family any more. It's been heading down the
toilet for a while and I'd say we've got 3 or 4 generations left tops
unless there's a massive social revolution.
TJ Xenos
Rappers aint coming from upper crust suburbs, ya feel me? Rich kids
go to college and go work white collar jobs. Poor kids work shit jobs
or hustle until they can make money doing something better, be it
sports, or entertainment, or finally getting their community college
degree and a real job in their 30s. Teenagers arent trying to listen
to 40 year olds or dudes who talk about being wage slaves.
>
> >Straight outta compton didnt get played on
> > MTV for a decade because the lyrics and imagery were too
> > controversial, however its one of the tamer songs on the genre.
> > Basically your beef is that gangsta rappers are no longer shut out of
> > the media like the 80s. Also, not every second rapper is talking
> > about guns and drugs, maybe the ones whose records people actually buy
> > are, but I don't blame THEM for the fact that people are more
> > interested in their lives than in common's.
>
> I don't want them shut out. I want balance. And I don't really blame
> the rappers. I BLAME THE CHILDREN.
Yeah, its the kids fault how they were raised. Quit your bitching and
blame your own damn generation for not raising these kids right if you
have a problem. I think the kids are fine personally and you just
refuse to admit that previous generations are the same because you
like being able to feel better about yourself and how things were
"better in [your] day".
>
> > > >The
> > > > only difference is drugs have become much less taboo and no longer
> > > > turn one into an utter social pariah. In other words, people are able
> > > > to keep it more real now because there is less prejudice towards
> > > > them. MF doom doesnt rap about selling drugs because when he came up
> > > > that was considered as bad as being a racist.
>
> > > Doom doesn't rap about selling drugs because it's a tired topic and
> > > he's trying to be unique.
>
> > LOL. Hes trying to be unique by rapping from the perspective of a
> > comic book character? I think Dennis Coles called and he wants his
> > idea back.
>
> Well, I said he's "trying" to be unique. As I said earlier, that's
> tough when just about everything's been rapped about already. Still,
> he's got more of an individual style than most.
How is he "trying to be unique"? IMO he's just regurgitating his life
and his influences like EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET. He's just an
older cat and therefore his influences are a little different so he
approaches the game a little different. You honestly sound like a
fundamentalist christian on some "we can't teach the kids about safe
sex because they're gonna be fucking" bullshit. Kids have been
killing kids since the old testament, and they've been fucking since
then too. You aint gonna change human nature no matter how you
attempt to change the media they absorb, because the art is only
imitating life, and real life actions are a much bigger influence on
humanity than any sort of make believe story designed to entertain.
Unless you start the world over without sex and violence kids are
gonna be exposed to it and are gonna perpetuate them, as they are and
have always been crucial components of human society.
The Ranger
Yeah, and it's because teenagers are the ones who ultimately decide
who gets media coverage that we have a problem. Generally as people
mature, they want to hear lyrics that they can relate to. At 33, I'd
rather hear about being a wage slave than being a drug dealer. Most
poor, working class people aren't thugs but if you're hoping your
rhyming skills are going to get to be your ticket to riches, then you
better start rapping like you're a criminal. And start acting like one
too unless you wanna get called out as a fake.
Subject matter that is relevant to me (and more relevant to most
people than ghetto fantasies) isn't given much air time. It's why
people are often surprised when someone my age says they listen to
mostly hiphop. To an outsider, it seems like an infantile genre of
music because the shallowest and most immature hiphop is what gets the
most coverage.
> > >Straight outta compton didnt get played on
> > > MTV for a decade because the lyrics and imagery were too
> > > controversial, however its one of the tamer songs on the genre.
> > > Basically your beef is that gangsta rappers are no longer shut out of
> > > the media like the 80s. Also, not every second rapper is talking
> > > about guns and drugs, maybe the ones whose records people actually buy
> > > are, but I don't blame THEM for the fact that people are more
> > > interested in their lives than in common's.
>
> > I don't want them shut out. I want balance. And I don't really blame
> > the rappers. I BLAME THE CHILDREN.
>
> Yeah, its the kids fault how they were raised. Quit your bitching and
> blame your own damn generation for not raising these kids right if you
> have a problem. I think the kids are fine personally and you just
> refuse to admit that previous generations are the same because you
> like being able to feel better about yourself and how things were
> "better in [your] day".
The blame the children comment was supposed to be light hearted.
My own generation's kids aren't even close to their teens yet, but
when they get there they're probably gonna be worse because people my
age seem to be even worse parents than the ones who raised today's
teens. I don't even really blame the parents because it's society
that's all fucked up. I'm fucked up too. We all are. Especially you.
;)
I'm not on some censorship crusade. I thought I'd already made that
clear. I don't want to ban anything. I just think we need some
balance.
And if you think the media doesn't have any influence on what kind of
people we turn out to be, you're a fool. It's like saying we're all
genetically programmed to be the way we are. The media is a huge part
of our environment and probably has as much influence on us as our
parents and teachers.
TJ Xenos
I call bullshit. Show and prove that dudes are rapping about drugs
because its what sells and not because its what they know. You (and
others) keep making this point, but just like the wack underground
rappers you prop, you only speak in stereotypes because you have no
examples to support your argument. Not to mention, unless you got
money and can afford to be underground and "do it for love" while
paying the bills off your family's money, you can't work a shit job
and still have enough time to work on your rhymes and actually have
fun. You wanna work 80 hours a week and work on your rhymes 80 and
have no life and nothing interesting to rhyme about, go head, but I
could give a fuck less about your magic amulets. You'd be better off
hustling 20 hours a week and working on your rhymes for 80 and
actually doing something you enjoy for 60 (or better yet putting more
time into your rhymes) and not being such a bitter prick like half of
these assholes.
>
> Subject matter that is relevant to me (and more relevant to most
> people than ghetto fantasies) isn't given much air time. It's why
> people are often surprised when someone my age says they listen to
> mostly hiphop. To an outsider, it seems like an infantile genre of
> music because the shallowest and most immature hiphop is what gets the
> most coverage.
This differs from every other music how? If hiphop werent made by
black people predominantly, mainstream society would be much more
accepting. glam rock was not nearly as reviled by mainstream society
while being much more damaging as atleast hustle rap promotes some
sort of work ethic and not just hedonism and objectification of women.
> > > >Straight outta compton didnt get played on
> > > > MTV for a decade because the lyrics and imagery were too
> > > > controversial, however its one of the tamer songs on the genre.
> > > > Basically your beef is that gangsta rappers are no longer shut out of
> > > > the media like the 80s. Also, not every second rapper is talking
> > > > about guns and drugs, maybe the ones whose records people actually buy
> > > > are, but I don't blame THEM for the fact that people are more
> > > > interested in their lives than in common's.
>
> > > I don't want them shut out. I want balance. And I don't really blame
> > > the rappers. I BLAME THE CHILDREN.
>
> > Yeah, its the kids fault how they were raised. Quit your bitching and
> > blame your own damn generation for not raising these kids right if you
> > have a problem. I think the kids are fine personally and you just
> > refuse to admit that previous generations are the same because you
> > like being able to feel better about yourself and how things were
> > "better in [your] day".
>
> The blame the children comment was supposed to be light hearted.
>
> My own generation's kids aren't even close to their teens yet, but
> when they get there they're probably gonna be worse because people my
> age seem to be even worse parents than the ones who raised today's
> teens. I don't even really blame the parents because it's society
> that's all fucked up. I'm fucked up too. We all are. Especially you.
Really? Your generation is much more homophobic and less accepting of
diversity than the current one, and not nearly as proficient with
technology. You call that better? We're all fucked up. Every person
has been fucked up since man evolved, just in different ways. I just
call bullshit on people saying "well the way I was fucked up back in
the day wasn't as bad", fuck you, you was too, get the fuck over
yourself. This generational strife is as old as time itself, and with
wisdom I dont think anyone has looked back and said "yeah my parents
were right it was so much better back then". Basically your argument
boils down to "society has changed in a way I can't adapt to and I'm
threatened by that", since you have no metric to prove that society is
objectively worse now than it was at any given point. If you wanna
argue that "the balance viewpoints in hip hop" is not what you'd
PREFER it be and that it was closer to YOUR PREFERENCE 20 years ago,
thats fine. It's your preference, just don't bitch about the fact
that people don't agree with you like you're some high and mighty
arbitrator of what is right and wrong and everyone else is a bunch of
moronic sheep who are erroneous in their opinions. It really just is
what it fucking is.
And most people think there is an adequate balance already, and thats
why things are the way they are.
> And if you think the media doesn't have any influence on what kind of
> people we turn out to be, you're a fool. It's like saying we're all
> genetically programmed to be the way we are. The media is a huge part
> of our environment and probably has as much influence on us as our
> parents and teachers.
The media only influences you if your parents allow it to. If your
kids grow up to be influenced by the media its because you didnt
influence them enough as a parent. I 100% back charles barkley here.
I've watched and listened to the foulest shit imaginable, but have
never done anything to intentionally hurt another living thing,
because my mom taught me what was right and wrong and that
entertainment is just that, entertainment. I'm not about to go
crusading to make her a saint, she just did what every parent SHOULD
do as a matter of course.
The Ranger
TJ, there's no point discussing shit with you because you think you
know where I'm coming from before you read the posts and then you go
off on some bullshit, attacking me for what you think I believe
instead of what I'm actually saying. Maybe I'm just not good at
expressing myself.
My actual position one last time (if you care):
- I disagree with Wise Intelligent that there's no real difference in
lyrics between the "mainstream" and "underground". I think more people
put themselves in one camp or the other because of lyrical content
than do so because of what the rappers are wearing or what kind of
beat they rhyme over.
- I don't put myself in either camp. I would struggle to name 10
"underground" emcees.
- I think thug/hustler themes are over-represented in today's rap.
- It may not be that rappers are rapping about drugs just to sell.
Maybe it's just that those rappers are the ones who are getting
signed. And I don't think it's because the best emcees are former drug-
dealers.
- I do not want to ban anything. I'd just like more varied hiphop to
get some attention.
- Yes, that's just my preference (as well as a lot of other people's).
I'm allowed to have a preference and an opinion. I never once said
everyone has to agree with me.
- I think the human race is on the wrong path and the commodification
(if that's a word...probably not because google's putting a red line
under it...but google's also putting a red line under "google's" so
what the fuck does google know) of everything is robbing things of
their true value (life, love, sex, happiness all have price tags on
them)
- I don't exempt myself from how society is going down hill and I
don't pretend things were perfect back "in my day" or in any
generation before. In many ways they were worse. Humanity has been
headed for self-destruction for millennia. It just seems to be
speeding up over the last century.
- You're an opinionated dickhead.
TJ Xenos
> TJ, there's no point discussing shit with you because you think you
> know where I'm coming from before you read the posts and then you go
> off on some bullshit, attacking me for what you think I believe
> instead of what I'm actually saying. Maybe I'm just not good at
> expressing myself.
I dont think I know where you're coming from, I'm for the most part
speaking rhetorically in response to the points your making as opposed
to actually discussing what you feel.
>
> My actual position one last time (if you care):
>
> - I disagree with Wise Intelligent that there's no real difference in
> lyrics between the "mainstream" and "underground". I think more people
> put themselves in one camp or the other because of lyrical content
> than do so because of what the rappers are wearing or what kind of
> beat they rhyme over.
I think they put themselves in the camp the rappers put themselves
in. I think the rappers put themselves in categories based on their
lifestyle and their beats and not their lyrical content.
> - I don't put myself in either camp. I would struggle to name 10
> "underground" emcees.
I didnt mean to imply that you did. I use "you" in the "you all"
sense, or improperly for formal writing as in the sense that it should
be "one" or "the listener/reader". I apologize for my implication of
you personally being responsible for the tangential arguments I rail
against.
> - I think thug/hustler themes are over-represented in today's rap.
I disagree, but this is just opinion. I'd like to point out that the
hiphop consuming public would largely disagree with you.
> - It may not be that rappers are rapping about drugs just to sell.
> Maybe it's just that those rappers are the ones who are getting
> signed. And I don't think it's because the best emcees are former drug-
> dealers.
Define best emcees. I'd say the public that consumes hiphop defines
what a good emcee is. Therefore the best emcees are former drug
dealers right now. Hiphop is about communication, not shoegazing.
> - I do not want to ban anything. I'd just like more varied hiphop to
> get some attention.
I don't think what a non-hip hop entity chooses to endorse from the
subset of music that we call "hip hop" has anything to do with what
hip hop actually is. I dont think pretentious college radio shows
playing garbage battle rappers instead of underground g-rap is a
cause for complaint any more than pop radio playing commercial g-rap
instead of common is. I just listen to what I like and keep it
moving.
> - Yes, that's just my preference (as well as a lot of other people's).
> I'm allowed to have a preference and an opinion. I never once said
> everyone has to agree with me.
I'd say its less people's preference than the status quo. So if
you're not trying to push your opinion on anyone, what are you doing?
Whining? I mean, theres a difference between propping what you like
and complaining about what you don't like thats popular.
> - I think the human race is on the wrong path and the commodification
> (if that's a word...probably not because google's putting a red line
> under it...but google's also putting a red line under "google's" so
> what the fuck does google know) of everything is robbing things of
> their true value (life, love, sex, happiness all have price tags on
> them)
Everything has had a pricetag on it since the dawn of society. Chicks
have always married rich guys. Guys have always attempted to front to
impress women. People have always treated each other shitty since the
dawn of time. Maybe its that I lost my innocence really young and had
no illusions about there being something more to life than what we
have now, but my study of history hasn't shown me any different. My
point is the argument you're presenting has been argued since the
beginning of time, and the world hasnt ended and no one has yet to
present a proof that things ACTUALLY were better back whenever.
> - I don't exempt myself from how society is going down hill and I
> don't pretend things were perfect back "in my day" or in any
> generation before. In many ways they were worse. Humanity has been
> headed for self-destruction for millennia. It just seems to be
> speeding up over the last century.
I disagree with that. I mean, seriously how is what humankind is
doing to itself now any worse than say, colonization and the imperial
era? Selling crack is small potatoes compared to enslaving entire
nations (whether it be physically or economically).
> - You're an opinionated dickhead.
Yes I am. I'm also one who loves to be the devils advocate.
The Ranger
LOL. Well played.
I'm on my way out the door, but I'll continue this later.
The Ranger
> On Aug 26, 6:07 pm, The Ranger <sedgwickave...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > TJ, there's no point discussing shit with you because you think you
> > know where I'm coming from before you read the posts and then you go
> > off on some bullshit, attacking me for what you think I believe
> > instead of what I'm actually saying. Maybe I'm just not good at
> > expressing myself.
>
> I dont think I know where you're coming from, I'm for the most part
> speaking rhetorically in response to the points your making as opposed
> to actually discussing what you feel.
>
>
>
> > My actual position one last time (if you care):
>
> > - I disagree with Wise Intelligent that there's no real difference in
> > lyrics between the "mainstream" and "underground". I think more people
> > put themselves in one camp or the other because of lyrical content
> > than do so because of what the rappers are wearing or what kind of
> > beat they rhyme over.
>
> I think they put themselves in the camp the rappers put themselves
> in. I think the rappers put themselves in categories based on their
> lifestyle and their beats and not their lyrical content.
But the lyrical content reflects their lifestyle, doesn't it?
> > - I don't put myself in either camp. I would struggle to name 10
> > "underground" emcees.
>
> I didnt mean to imply that you did. I use "you" in the "you all"
> sense, or improperly for formal writing as in the sense that it should
> be "one" or "the listener/reader". I apologize for my implication of
> you personally being responsible for the tangential arguments I rail
> against.
Apology accepted. I personally don't think I belong to any camp.
> > - I think thug/hustler themes are over-represented in today's rap.
>
> I disagree, but this is just opinion. I'd like to point out that the
> hiphop consuming public would largely disagree with you.
Do you disagree because you think that kind of rap doesn't really get
all that much attention or because you believe that there are a lot
more thugs and hustlers out there than regular people?
> > - It may not be that rappers are rapping about drugs just to sell.
> > Maybe it's just that those rappers are the ones who are getting
> > signed. And I don't think it's because the best emcees are former drug-
> > dealers.
>
> Define best emcees. I'd say the public that consumes hiphop defines
> what a good emcee is. Therefore the best emcees are former drug
> dealers right now. Hiphop is about communication, not shoegazing.
So you're saying the best measure of an emcee is his sales?
> > - I do not want to ban anything. I'd just like more varied hiphop to
> > get some attention.
>
> I don't think what a non-hip hop entity chooses to endorse from the
> subset of music that we call "hip hop" has anything to do with what
> hip hop actually is. I dont think pretentious college radio shows
> playing garbage battle rappers instead of underground g-rap is a
> cause for complaint any more than pop radio playing commercial g-rap
> instead of common is. I just listen to what I like and keep it
> moving.
I do the same but I'd like to be able to turn on a video show and see
something good once in a while.
> > - Yes, that's just my preference (as well as a lot of other people's).
> > I'm allowed to have a preference and an opinion. I never once said
> > everyone has to agree with me.
>
> I'd say its less people's preference than the status quo. So if
> you're not trying to push your opinion on anyone, what are you doing?
> Whining? I mean, theres a difference between propping what you like
> and complaining about what you don't like thats popular.
People post their opinions on usenet. It doesn't have to be whining or
trying to force others to agree. I didn't start any of these threads.
Just added my two cents. Maybe one cent cause I don't know WTF I'm
talking about half the time.
> > - I think the human race is on the wrong path and the commodification
> > (if that's a word...probably not because google's putting a red line
> > under it...but google's also putting a red line under "google's" so
> > what the fuck does google know) of everything is robbing things of
> > their true value (life, love, sex, happiness all have price tags on
> > them)
>
> Everything has had a pricetag on it since the dawn of society.
Yeah, but it wasn't advertised to us every minute of the day.
> Chicks
> have always married rich guys. Guys have always attempted to front to
> impress women. People have always treated each other shitty since the
> dawn of time. Maybe its that I lost my innocence really young and had
> no illusions about there being something more to life than what we
> have now, but my study of history hasn't shown me any different. My
> point is the argument you're presenting has been argued since the
> beginning of time, and the world hasnt ended and no one has yet to
> present a proof that things ACTUALLY were better back whenever.
>
> > - I don't exempt myself from how society is going down hill and I
> > don't pretend things were perfect back "in my day" or in any
> > generation before. In many ways they were worse. Humanity has been
> > headed for self-destruction for millennia. It just seems to be
> > speeding up over the last century.
>
> I disagree with that. I mean, seriously how is what humankind is
> doing to itself now any worse than say, colonization and the imperial
> era? Selling crack is small potatoes compared to enslaving entire
> nations (whether it be physically or economically).
I've been down on humanity lately. I think it's because I was forced
to spend 3-4 hours a day on public transport for a few months. Just
watching people and seeing how self-absorbed they are and how little
respect they have for others. Most people just pretend they don't
notice when an old lady or a little kid gets on the train so they
don't have to give up their seat. It's not just young people either.
Suited up gimps with their little briefcases on the seat beside them
needing to be told to move it. Fat middle aged women sitting in aisle
seat with the window seat next to them empty and I gotta tell them to
slide over so my four year old can sit down.
> > - You're an opinionated dickhead.
>
> Yes I am. I'm also one who loves to be the devils advocate.
Yeah I noticed. I take back "dickhead" though.
TJ Xenos
> On Aug 27, 8:34 am, TJ Xenos <talvi...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I think they put themselves in the camp the rappers put themselves
> > in. I think the rappers put themselves in categories based on their
> > lifestyle and their beats and not their lyrical content.
>
> But the lyrical content reflects their lifestyle, doesn't it?
Not necessarily. For example, kids who like underground shit like
ridiculous thug rap made by grimy white dudes, but gangsta rap fans
don't.
> > > - I think thug/hustler themes are over-represented in today's rap.
>
> > I disagree, but this is just opinion. I'd like to point out that the
> > hiphop consuming public would largely disagree with you.
>
> Do you disagree because you think that kind of rap doesn't really get
> all that much attention or because you believe that there are a lot
> more thugs and hustlers out there than regular people?
I'd say most people have some familiarity with some sort of illegal
business and/or can relate. I mean, if you just get into dudes who
get drunk and fight in bars, or like just your everyday weed smoker,
or the dude who's a playboy, or whoever on top of the people who do
smalltime dirt like steal car stereos or rims or sell a couple
prescription pills or some weed or whatever to the dudes who are
straight up thugs and criminals. Most people could give a fuck less
about some shit some dude made up about his magical amulet that
generates crazy colored weed and some story that has no roots in the
real world. Thats my opinion for why some shit is popular and other
shit isn't.
>
> > > - It may not be that rappers are rapping about drugs just to sell.
> > > Maybe it's just that those rappers are the ones who are getting
> > > signed. And I don't think it's because the best emcees are former drug-
> > > dealers.
>
> > Define best emcees. I'd say the public that consumes hiphop defines
> > what a good emcee is. Therefore the best emcees are former drug
> > dealers right now. Hiphop is about communication, not shoegazing.
>
> So you're saying the best measure of an emcee is his sales?
I don't know of a "best way" to measure an emcee. I have my own
methodology to determine who I think is a better rapper (First rule is
you have to have a voice I can stand to fucking listen to). I'm just
saying that in order to crown a "best emcee" we need to define what
constitutes that, and that likely if we were to put the criteria to a
vote of the people who listen to hiphop, we'd probably end up with
something similar to the sales charts, albeit with less variation from
time of year or just dropping a mediocre album or whatever.
>
> > > - I do not want to ban anything. I'd just like more varied hiphop to
> > > get some attention.
>
> > I don't think what a non-hip hop entity chooses to endorse from the
> > subset of music that we call "hip hop" has anything to do with what
> > hip hop actually is. I dont think pretentious college radio shows
> > playing garbage battle rappers instead of underground g-rap is a
> > cause for complaint any more than pop radio playing commercial g-rap
> > instead of common is. I just listen to what I like and keep it
> > moving.
>
> I do the same but I'd like to be able to turn on a video show and see
> something good once in a while.
*shrugs* I don't watch tv.
>
> > > - I think the human race is on the wrong path and the commodification
> > > (if that's a word...probably not because google's putting a red line
> > > under it...but google's also putting a red line under "google's" so
> > > what the fuck does google know) of everything is robbing things of
> > > their true value (life, love, sex, happiness all have price tags on
> > > them)
>
> > Everything has had a pricetag on it since the dawn of society.
>
> Yeah, but it wasn't advertised to us every minute of the day.
I agree that advertising is a very crass and inefficient industry
(insofar as it doesn't produce anything) but I just ignore it. It's
not that hard for me.
Funny thing is (not being contrary here, REAL TALK) I've actually been
more up on people and noticing more people doing nice things lately,
but I think what you notice is affected by your attitude.
>
> > > - You're an opinionated dickhead.
>
> > Yes I am. I'm also one who loves to be the devils advocate.
>
> Yeah I noticed. I take back "dickhead" though.
Thank you. I'd much prefer to be an "opinionated prick". ;)
The Ranger
> On Aug 26, 8:24 pm, The Ranger <sedgwickave...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip a bunch of stuff that i either don't feel strongly enough or
don't know enough to argue about>
> > > I don't think what a non-hip hop entity chooses to endorse from the
> > > subset of music that we call "hip hop" has anything to do with what
> > > hip hop actually is. I dont think pretentious college radio shows
> > > playing garbage battle rappers instead of underground g-rap is a
> > > cause for complaint any more than pop radio playing commercial g-rap
> > > instead of common is. I just listen to what I like and keep it
> > > moving.
>
> > I do the same but I'd like to be able to turn on a video show and see
> > something good once in a while.
>
> *shrugs* I don't watch tv.
I don't watch much either. I get torrents of a few favourite shows and
watch sports and the simpsons on TV. If it wasn't so awful, I might
watch more.
> > > > - I think the human race is on the wrong path and the commodification
> > > > (if that's a word...probably not because google's putting a red line
> > > > under it...but google's also putting a red line under "google's" so
> > > > what the fuck does google know) of everything is robbing things of
> > > > their true value (life, love, sex, happiness all have price tags on
> > > > them)
>
> > > Everything has had a pricetag on it since the dawn of society.
>
> > Yeah, but it wasn't advertised to us every minute of the day.
>
> I agree that advertising is a very crass and inefficient industry
> (insofar as it doesn't produce anything) but I just ignore it. It's
> not that hard for me.
I'm mostly just exposed to the ad breaks during the football and the
Simpsons, plus all the stuff that's thrust at you when you're walking
down the street. It's kinda hard to ignore. Anyway, I'd rather be
aware of it and criticize it than just let it sneak into my head
subliminally. My kids are developing pretty good bullshit detectors
for advertising, which I'm pleased about. But I think a lot of people
(especially kids and teens) are heavily influenced by advertising.
To some extent, you're right. But there are times when I'm in a great,
optimistic mood and people are still being arsewipes. And even when
I'm in a shitty mood, I'll still offer my seat to the elderly or very
young or pregnant or whatever. There's a part of me that's always
aware of being considerate to those around me. Seems like more and
more people (of all ages) are closing that part of themselves down.
bobor...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
You may have a point but Rap and Hip-hop are two different art forms
www.boborecords.net and www.myspace.com/txk2002
TXK