F*** a handout
Steve S. Jackson
Just how eager was The New York Times to hire and promote minority
employees?
The paper of record has said that race wasn't the reason that serial
fibber Jayson Blair was promoted, but some insiders at the company are
complaining that pressure to hire women and minorities at the Times
was so intense that managers were told that their bonuses would be cut
if they didn't provide bosses with minority and female job applicants.
"You as a manager will again be responsible for making sure that open
professional and managerial positions (both hiring and promotion) have
diverse applicant pools that include both women and minorities,"
Russell T. Lewis, president of the New York Times Co., wrote in an
April 2 memo sent to certain staffers. "This allows us to look at a
wide rage of qualified candidates. The receipt of 10% of your actual
annual bonus award will continue to be conditioned upon your
assembling such diverse pools." "It's up to us to come up with these
applicants or we get financially penalized," one insider complained to
The Scoop. "You figure it out." (Jeannette Walls The Scoop in MSNBC
Living.)
*************************************
I hate isht like this. I mean it's bad enough people don't trust the
news and it's bad enough we have to continuously struggle for equality
in the workplace, but when isht like this happens... it gives others
alot of ammunition. Against media, against minorities, etc. Don't
give me something just 'cause I'm dark skinned, give me something
because I'm qualified and just happen to be dark skinned. I don't
want to be promoted because I'm black and I make the company look
diverse, I want to be promoted because I'm just as qualified if not
moreso, than the white guy sitting next to me. I want to be promoted
because I've worked like hell and I deserve that isht. That's why I
want to be promoted. I don't care if your company promotes diversity
(a more politically correct term for affirmative action), I don't care
if your newsroom has 100 hundred black people or one, I don't care if
there's an asian, latino, or any other minority working there. I want
you to consider one thing when I'm looking for a job or a promotion--
am I qualified?
Kuahmel Allah
in the workplace, but when isht like this happens... it gives others
alot of ammunition.<<<
I think that was the point, to build up ammo to undermine Blacks and make a
scapegoat of race....basically, a material excuse to stick to white males.....
--Kuahmel Allah, Los Angeles
"LOS ANGELES!!!"--Krondon
"For God's sake, eat a burger!!!"--Calista Flockhart
"I rep for the hood!!!"--RossAndersen
noixe 2000
> (a more politically correct term for affirmative action), I don't care
> if your newsroom has 100 hundred black people or one, I don't care if
> there's an asian, latino, or any other minority working there. I want
> you to consider one thing when I'm looking for a job or a promotion--
> am I qualified?
ok, but let's accept it as fact that nobody is *ever* hired on qualification
alone. employers are rocked with double-standards...if they hire whitey,
they're racist. if they hire you, you feel like you got a handout. if it's
two cats who are basically equally qualified, the one who knows more people
will get the job. no decision about employment is entirely unbiased--shit,
at least minorities have a leg-up against against racits corruption in the
job market now.
maybe I'm too optimistic.
anyways I'm fucking annoyed this Jayson Blair thing became an affirmative
action issue. I don't give a fuck why he got promoted, *nobody* could have
seen this coming. if nothing else, being slick enough to pull off that scam
requires brains like whoa--he probably deserved the promotion.
OverTiME
On the contrary...
Journalism is supposed to have a code of ethics. Lying isn't
included in it.
Race really shouldn't be the issue but it becomes on when the suspect
is dark complexioned. Always.
He's a f--k up. He did Blackfolks a disservice by his actions.
The real issue is something along the lines of his failure of duty
to have been a role model.
At least in my opinion.
And Jackson, be for real. To get an equivalent job in this society,
a minority has to be OVER qualified. I see it all the time.
My roommate is an engineer, graduated top of his class, only Black in
his division. There are whites guys working in his office who don't
have degrees making the salary. And yes, it's because they are white.
same salary, they just know people.
I'm not one for turning down a job. Even if it was a hand-out,
eventually
you can be in a position to hire someone and give them opportunities
that
you didn't have. It's the only way Blacks will move up.
Steve S. Jackson
> noixe 2000 <alfr...@artsci.wustl.eduCATIONTASTESGOOD> wrote in message news:<BAEFB022.6C50%alfr...@artsci.wustl.eduCATIONTASTESGOOD>...
> > > want to be promoted. I don't care if your company promotes diversity
> > > (a more politically correct term for affirmative action), I don't care
> > > if your newsroom has 100 hundred black people or one, I don't care if
> > > there's an asian, latino, or any other minority working there. I want
> > > you to consider one thing when I'm looking for a job or a promotion--
> > > am I qualified?
> >
> > ok, but let's accept it as fact that nobody is *ever* hired on qualification
> > alone. employers are rocked with double-standards...if they hire whitey,
> > they're racist. if they hire you, you feel like you got a handout. if it's
> > two cats who are basically equally qualified, the one who knows more people
> > will get the job. no decision about employment is entirely unbiased--shit,
> > at least minorities have a leg-up against against racits corruption in the
> > job market now.
> >
> > maybe I'm too optimistic.
> >
> > anyways I'm fucking annoyed this Jayson Blair thing became an affirmative
> > action issue. I don't give a fuck why he got promoted, *nobody* could have
> > seen this coming. if nothing else, being slick enough to pull off that scam
> > requires brains like whoa--he probably deserved the promotion.
>
>
>
>
> On the contrary...
>
> Journalism is supposed to have a code of ethics. Lying isn't
> included in it.
Exactly. From my understanding, he had a pattern of lying from his
previous places of employment (Boston Globe? or a smaller New England
paper?). He shouldn't have ever been considered for the NY Times gig.
> Race really shouldn't be the issue but it becomes on when the suspect
> is dark complexioned. Always.
>
That's what I was trying to say.
>
> He's a f--k up. He did Blackfolks a disservice by his actions.
> The real issue is something along the lines of his failure of duty
> to have been a role model.
>
> At least in my opinion.
>
> And Jackson, be for real. To get an equivalent job in this society,
> a minority has to be OVER qualified. I see it all the time.
> My roommate is an engineer, graduated top of his class, only Black in
> his division. There are whites guys working in his office who don't
> have degrees making the salary. And yes, it's because they are white.
>
I understand that. And I guess my inital post seemed overly
optimistic or too simplistic. I recognize I have to do twice the work
that Joe Smith does in order to get acknowledged. Even so, I don't
want to be the chocolate chip in a Scranton, PA station simply because
Cox or Hearst Broadcasting needs to look diverse. I'd rather them
have a lily white station with excellent reporting than hire
minorities whose sense of journalistic integrity is questionable at
best. There are enough minorities in the communications field to have
more than a few of us in every television station, newspaper, and
radio station in the country. And if you're an operation like the NY
Times, you do not have to go very far to find qualified minorities
willing to work for you. So why hire someone who's shaky? There's no
excuse for Mr. Blair's actions, and even less of an excuse for the
Times. The newspaper of record now must be questioned on everything.
> same salary, they just know people.
>
> I'm not one for turning down a job. Even if it was a hand-out,
> eventually
> you can be in a position to hire someone and give them opportunities
> that
> you didn't have. It's the only way Blacks will move up.
I disagree. Handouts aren't always easy to spot so it can be
difficult to know if you're entering a workplace on your skill or your
skin or it's just a combination of both (which actually, isn't bad).
And a handout is fine until you something like ol' boi at the Times.
Then it's like what the f***? I guess my stance is when this story
broke, you know there were cats in the NABJ (National Association of
Black Journalists) like what the f***, they could've hired me!
KnoMD
Jackson) wrote:
yet another sign that this society/country is S.O.S.-stuck on
stupid...
KnoMD
humans: the animal that killed the planet...
KnoMD
<alfr...@artsci.wustl.eduCATIONTASTESGOOD> wrote:
>no decision about employment is entirely unbiased--shit,
>at least minorities have a leg-up against against racits corruption in the
>job market now.
the fact the racism and/or corruption xists indicates that no has a
leg up xcept 4 those who maintain financial power. cats need 2 stop
letting this racial wool b pulled over their eyes...
$ don't give a fuck about the ethnicity of its holder...ask O.J....
KnoMD
wrote:
>It's the only way Blacks will move up.
that's a cop out. fuck moving up in something that isn't urs. get
your own shit. that's why the "old boy network" works. it's about
who not what u know...
get ur own shit...
OverTiME
> On 20 May 2003 15:00:11 -0700, over...@mail.utexas.edu (OverTiME)
> wrote:
>
> >It's the only way Blacks will move up.
If you don't have something, the only way to get it is from
those that do. You can't get your own until you get a piece
to build it with from someone else.
>
> that's a cop out. fuck moving up in something that isn't urs. get
> your own shit. that's why the "old boy network" works. it's about
> who not what u know...
>
> get ur own shit...
>
> KnoMD
Say what you want mane.
But as far as big media, big government, etc.
the only way to get in is be a part of it.
And the issue was the black journalist in big media who got fired
for plagarism.
How many major Black publications are there with substance?
Essence, Ebony, a coupla others...
I feel you though.
But I'm with you mane.
Imagine if erebody who claimed hip-hop voted?
endus
Jackson) wrote:
> There's no
>excuse for Mr. Blair's actions, and even less of an excuse for the
>Times. The newspaper of record now must be questioned on everything.
I agree 1000% with what you're saying but I just have to ask why they
didn't have to be questioned on everything before this happened. The
major corporations takover of the media means that we have to be
skeptical of any and all information that they put out because they
are disposed to being middlemen for the government...at times just
printing exactly what the government wants them to print.
**** e * n * d * u * s * d * o * t * c * o * m ****
Civil liberties are black and white issues.
I don't think people think far enough to see the
ramifications. The PATRIOT Act was a dagger in the
heart, really, of even the concept of a democratic
government that is free, equal and just.
-Hunter S. Thompson
endus
wrote:
>If you don't have something, the only way to get it is from
>those that do. You can't get your own until you get a piece
>to build it with from someone else.
I just have to say that I partially agree with this point of view.
The part I don't agree with is that the *only* way to get things is
from the white power structure. Black people with initiative can
create their own success without outside help. Yes, there's a lot of
institutionalized racism, but money is bigger than that in some cases.
Individual black people do not *need* to depend on whitey for success.
The caveat to that is that I think black people _as a whole_ a.)
should and b.) need to become integrated into the corporate/power
structure in order to level the economic/social playing field in this
country. I (white guy) do not want two separate economies and
societies, one for blacks and one for whites. I think that would
promote racism and would just generally be destructive to society in
general.
>> that's a cop out. fuck moving up in something that isn't urs. get
>> your own shit. that's why the "old boy network" works. it's about
>> who not what u know...
>>
>> get ur own shit...
>>
>> KnoMD
>
>Say what you want mane.
>
>But as far as big media, big government, etc.
>the only way to get in is be a part of it.
Comments like "that isn't ours" scare me. I talk to a lot of
non-white folks who have the same sentiment about the corporate or
even the government power structure. The problem I have with that is
that it *is* theirs. It's everybody's. I understand the mentality
since technically I didn't build any of these companies either, but
everyone in this country should feel that they have the same
opportunity to participate in these businesses as anyone else (and
obviously the same goes for government). The primary reason for that
is that it directly affects them in a very real way. I've never
worked for Enron, no one in my family has ever worked for Enron...but
the hijinx that were going on over there affected the economy and
therefore my ability to get a job. Obviously there are even wider
reprocussions when you start talking about the impact on the economy.
This outsider attitude is stupid and dagerious. I'm not telling
*anyone* that they have to give up their culture, but to abandon the
businesses that make the economy go, and the government that you pay
taxes to and runs significant portions of your life is incredibly
foolish. The government that is here is here to stay. We need to
start participating and owning that government (I say we because I
feel like an outsider too...not at all in the same way, but when I
talk about this I feel I have to include myself since this government
does not represent my interests). The alternative is for non-white
people's to a.) continue to be disproportionately poor/in
jail/segregated into certain neighborhoods, b.) leave the
country...fuck that, or c.) start a revolution. There are people who
actually advocate revolution. What a stupid fucking ridiculous idea
*THAT* is. Talk about a hopeless fight that will yield nothing but
pain and misery for generations to come.
>But I'm with you mane.
>Imagine if erebody who claimed hip-hop voted?
This is exactly what I'm saying. Some people think the government is
too far gone to get back. I agree that we don't live in a democracy
anymore, but I think we can take it back if we start paying attention.
The problem is that the hiphop generation...and gen x and whoever...is
incredibly lazy and pathetic when it comes to actually taking action.
They talk a great game, but how many have written letters to their
congressmen/voted/participated in some meaningful way...not enough.
We have more than enough people to start changing the way things are,
but it's that same outsider attitude that keeps people from doing
anything. That's the ridiculous part of the outsider attitude....okay
so you don't want to participate in whitey's world...what are you
doing to improve your community on your own? I'm not calling anyone
out specifically, but just from looking around I would have to say
that *most* people aren't doing shit, because things are just getting
worse. If everyone who talked all this shit did 1/4 of the things they
think they should do there would be a major turnaround in the way
things are. Besides though, why reinvent the wheel? There is a
corporate structure and a government structure (that takes a 1/3 of
your money) that already exists and is ripe for the takeover. Sure,
that's not an easy path, but using what's already there is a shitload
easier than reinventing something new.
KnoMD
wrote:
>KnoMD <kn...@wachit.com> wrote in message news:<3tlocv0m4c2hl9l84...@4ax.com>...
unfortunately, many peeps seem 2 think this way. put it 2 u like
this. if u aspire 2 accumulate ur own pile of feces, do u suggest
ingesting the feces of whoever has a bigger pile? i can shit myself.
i don't need shit from another 2 have my own. self-reliance is a lost
art. building does not require selling ur soul. the greater good is
the primary issue & big business/media does not operate for the
greater good. why support the operation of such a machine/system?
KnoMD
KnoMD
>at times just
>printing exactly what the government wants them to print.
it ain't the government that is in control...the corporations tell the
government what 2 do 2...
KnoMD
> There is a
>corporate structure and a government structure (that takes a 1/3 of
>your money) that already exists and is ripe for the takeover. Sure,
>that's not an easy path, but using what's already there is a shitload
>easier than reinventing something new.
easy is not the answer. that's a big part of the problem that u
recognized as laziness & apathy. it's easier 2 go along & try 2 fit
in than it is 2 fight or dispute the inequity of society. it isn't
about race, ethnicity or religion. these r all major distractions 2
the real issue: economics. as far as a revolution being stupid, it
comes back 2 that concept of what is or is not easy. consider every
revolution of which u r aware. were any of them easy? as far as pain
& misery, if u r already xperiencing pain & misery, what is there 2
lose? if u do not live life in a fashion that leads 2 ur happiness,
then how can u value the life that u claim 2 live? why would u want
ur children 2 grow up in this mess? it is not worth saving. it is
way passed time 4 change...
don't get it twisted, violence is not the key 2 revolution. the minds
of the people must b properly prepared 4 this type of change. it will
start by not accepting the status quo...
KnoMD
[OT]
<do...@email.invalid> wrote:
> On 22 May 2003 20:21:19 -0700, over...@mail.utexas.edu (OverTiME)
> wrote:
>
> >If you don't have something, the only way to get it is from
> >those that do. You can't get your own until you get a piece
> >to build it with from someone else.
> I just have to say that I partially agree with this point of view.
> The part I don't agree with is that the *only* way to get things is
> from the white power structure.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable.
> Black people with initiative can
> create their own success without outside help.
Care to name a few?
I can't think of any, especially in contemporary times.
> Yes, there's a lot of
> institutionalized racism, but money is bigger than that in some cases.
> Individual black people do not *need* to depend on whitey for success.
Control of the money *is* the institutionalized racism.
I wasn't talking about individuals.
>
> The caveat to that is that I think black people _as a whole_ a.)
> should and b.) need to become integrated into the corporate/power
> structure in order to level the economic/social playing field in this
> country.
That was the whole point of my reply.
The only way to reach your point B, is by having Blacks in
the industry hire more Blacks. It's innovators like Robert Johnson:
"I'm going to create an experienced pool of [minorities] for those
who say, 'We'd love to hire you if you had more exerience.'"
And even Johnson got help.
He started BET with a $500,000 loan from a white guy.
Then sold it to Viacom (also not Black owned) for $3 billion.
Which backs up my original point.
> I (white guy) do not want two separate economies and
> societies, one for blacks and one for whites. I think that would
> promote racism and would just generally be destructive to society in
> general.
Where have you been? Two seperate economies and societies already exist!
According to a study conducted by the economists Richard Vedder,
Lowell Gallaway and David C Clingaman, the average income for a black American
is 61% less per year than the average white income.
That is the same percentage difference as it was in 1880.
Not a damned thing has changed in more than 120 years.
This is why we need affirmative action too.
The only way to end the disparities that slavery caused in this country
will be to either
a. give Blacks reparations (not going to happen in my lifetime)
b. Have things like affirmative action which change the imbalance over time.
Even it is unfair to some whites, so be it. It's called justice.
Say what you want, but there are a lot of whites who reaped (and some
still reaping) the benefits from slavery. I'm talking huge
corporations in agriculture (Phillip Morris), insurance (Aetna) and all
other types of industry.
Some sacrifices have to be made by alot of white folks who don't feel
personally responsible. So unless they are going to give out reparations
checks, I don't feel bad if some white kid doesn't get into Michigan Law.
He's a smart kid, he can go somewhere else. He has endless possibilities
becuz he's white. It could be worse. He could have been Black and grown up
in early 1950's Alabama like my dad did, and not really had a choice.
> >> that's a cop out. fuck moving up in something that isn't urs. get
> >> your own shit. that's why the "old boy network" works. it's about
> >> who not what u know...
> >>
> >> get ur own shit...
> >>
> >> KnoMD
> >
> >Say what you want mane.
> >
> >But as far as big media, big government, etc.
> >the only way to get in is be a part of it.
>
> Comments like "that isn't ours" scare me. I talk to a lot of
> non-white folks who have the same sentiment about the corporate or
> even the government power structure. The problem I have with that is
> that it *is* theirs. It's everybody's. I understand the mentality
> since technically I didn't build any of these companies either, but
> everyone in this country should feel that they have the same
> opportunity to participate in these businesses as anyone else (and
> obviously the same goes for government).
Again, I understand this, but I was speaking on the reality
of how things are. I go to the University of Texas, the largest university
in the nation. We have over 50,000 students and less than 5,000 are Black.
That's not a technicality it's a fact.
Without higher education at top schools, you don't even know how to
become involved.
> The primary reason for that
> is that it directly affects them in a very real way. I've never
> worked for Enron, no one in my family has ever worked for Enron...but
> the hijinx that were going on over there affected the economy and
> therefore my ability to get a job. Obviously there are even wider
> reprocussions when you start talking about the impact on the economy.
I understand this, but the realities speak for themselves.
Pro sports have been around for years. It took until 2003 for
a Black person to own a franchise.
You don't seem to totally grasp the financial disparity that exists
in this country.
> This outsider attitude is stupid and dagerious. I'm not telling
> *anyone* that they have to give up their culture, but to abandon the
> businesses that make the economy go, and the government that you pay
> taxes to and runs significant portions of your life is incredibly
> foolish.
You were the one saying that we should form our own, not me.
Remember?
> endus <do...@email.invalid> wrote:
> Black people with initiative can
> create their own success without outside help.
I said we need to assimilate.
> The government that is here is here to stay. We need to
> start participating and owning that government (I say we because I
> feel like an outsider too...not at all in the same way, but when I
> talk about this I feel I have to include myself since this government
> does not represent my interests). The alternative is for non-white
> people's to a.) continue to be disproportionately poor/in
> jail/segregated into certain neighborhoods, b.) leave the
> country...fuck that, or c.) start a revolution. There are people who
> actually advocate revolution. What a stupid fucking ridiculous idea
> *THAT* is. Talk about a hopeless fight that will yield nothing but
> pain and misery for generations to come.
You forgot D:
Get crebible Blacks into these positions and more opportunities will grow.
> >But I'm with you mane.
> >Imagine if erebody who claimed hip-hop voted?
> This is exactly what I'm saying. Some people think the government is
> too far gone to get back. I agree that we don't live in a democracy
> anymore, but I think we can take it back if we start paying attention.
Less than 40,000 people voted in the latest Austin Mayorial election.
The new mayor had less than 20,000 votes. Some UT student could have
got the student body to vote for him/her and become mayor of Austin.
That's how things change.
But, then you have hanging chads and lost votes, so I can understand
lots of folks disenfranchisement as well.
> The problem is that the hiphop generation...and gen x and whoever...is
> incredibly lazy and pathetic when it comes to actually taking action.
> They talk a great game, but how many have written letters to their
> congressmen/voted/participated in some meaningful way...not enough.
> We have more than enough people to start changing the way things are,
> but it's that same outsider attitude that keeps people from doing
> anything. That's the ridiculous part of the outsider attitude..
I've been saying this about hip-hop for years, it's eventually
what made me not love h.e.r. anymore.
Hip-hop needs to get a job! Get a hair cut, put on some pants that fit,
and get a job!
> ...okay
> so you don't want to participate in whitey's world...what are you
> doing to improve your community on your own? I'm not calling anyone
> out specifically, but just from looking around I would have to say
> that *most* people aren't doing shit, because things are just getting
> worse. If everyone who talked all this shit did 1/4 of the things they
> think they should do there would be a major turnaround in the way
> things are. Besides though, why reinvent the wheel? There is a
> corporate structure and a government structure (that takes a 1/3 of
> your money) that already exists and is ripe for the takeover. Sure,
> that's not an easy path, but using what's already there is a shitload
> easier than reinventing something new.
> **** e * n * d * u * s * d * o * t * c * o * m ****
>
> Civil liberties are black and white issues.
> I don't think people think far enough to see the
> ramifications. The PATRIOT Act was a dagger in the
> heart, really, of even the concept of a democratic
> government that is free, equal and just.
> -Hunter S. Thompson
People who think that affirmative action is a hand out
need to consider this:
Even if you do get a hand out to get into a school or a job,
you still have to *perform* in your position.
You take the *same* exams as everyone else there.
There are no 'affirmative action' exams seperate from the others.
Nuff said.
peace,
OT
--
reply to: over...@mail.utexas.edu
endus
>On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:50:44 GMT, endus <do...@email.invalid> wrote:
>
>>at times just
>>printing exactly what the government wants them to print.
>
>it ain't the government that is in control...the corporations tell the
>government what 2 do 2...
LOL, yea that's true. I guess it's a two way street.
endus
wrote:
I think you might have slightly misinterpreted what I said, or maybe I
just needed to explain my positions on some of the other issues...here
goes..
>> Black people with initiative can
>> create their own success without outside help.
>
>Care to name a few?
>
>I can't think of any, especially in contemporary times.
I think I misstated what I meant. Sometimes at work I don't think all
that clearly. I think more what I was saying was that it is possible
for black people to create success for themselves in the white world,
and that that was the proof that using the system to your advantage is
possible for black people...it;'s just much much harder. The example
you give below about BET is what I'm talking about.
>> Yes, there's a lot of
>> institutionalized racism, but money is bigger than that in some cases.
>> Individual black people do not *need* to depend on whitey for success.
>
>Control of the money *is* the institutionalized racism.
>I wasn't talking about individuals.
I think it goes deeper than that but I guess since money is *always*
the bottom line in this country...it all comes back to that.
>That was the whole point of my reply.
>
>The only way to reach your point B, is by having Blacks in
>the industry hire more Blacks. It's innovators like Robert Johnson:
Without a doubt.
>"I'm going to create an experienced pool of [minorities] for those
>who say, 'We'd love to hire you if you had more exerience.'"
>
>And even Johnson got help.
>He started BET with a $500,000 loan from a white guy.
>Then sold it to Viacom (also not Black owned) for $3 billion.
>Which backs up my original point.
Yea, I agree 100% with this. My bad if I didn't make that clear last
time.
>Where have you been? Two seperate economies and societies already exist!
I'm just saying that achieving economic equality through creating an
entirely separate economy is not a good thing for anyone. I
understand what you're saying and I agree, but I just don't think it's
a good direction to keep moving in. I don't think it's a direction
that will work well...racial harmony is absoloutly critical to the
future of this country. This country succeeds because of it's
freedom, and it's time that everyone got to enjoy that freedom.
>According to a study conducted by the economists Richard Vedder,
>Lowell Gallaway and David C Clingaman, the average income for a black American
>is 61% less per year than the average white income.
>That is the same percentage difference as it was in 1880.
>Not a damned thing has changed in more than 120 years.
Yup.
>This is why we need affirmative action too.
>The only way to end the disparities that slavery caused in this country
>will be to either
>
>a. give Blacks reparations (not going to happen in my lifetime)
>b. Have things like affirmative action which change the imbalance over time.
>
>Even it is unfair to some whites, so be it. It's called justice.
>Say what you want, but there are a lot of whites who reaped (and some
>still reaping) the benefits from slavery. I'm talking huge
>corporations in agriculture (Phillip Morris), insurance (Aetna) and all
>other types of industry.
I agree 100%. I used to be really anti-affirmative action...and I
think it *was* actually for good reasons. It's an imperfect solution
to a shitty problem. The thing that I don't think most people realize
is just how segregated and racist society really is, because they just
don't really have it pointed out to them. Once you start to notice
how things are, though, you can't help but be for affirmative action.
Affirmative action gives an advantage to people who have had a
disadvantage their whole lives and takes away an advantage that other
people have had their whole lives. It balances out fairly, I think.
>Some sacrifices have to be made by alot of white folks who don't feel
>personally responsible. So unless they are going to give out reparations
>checks, I don't feel bad if some white kid doesn't get into Michigan Law.
>He's a smart kid, he can go somewhere else. He has endless possibilities
>becuz he's white. It could be worse. He could have been Black and grown up
>in early 1950's Alabama like my dad did, and not really had a choice.
I don't agree with the idea of reparations, but I do agree with
affirmative action. Reparations would be too complex and too unfair
in the end. And I don't think it would make *any* difference in how
things are. The answer to problems has never been to give people
money (even if it is deserved when you think about it), it's been to
give people the ability to make money for themselves. I would rather
see them total up all the reparations and put it into schools and
scholarships for higher education.
>Again, I understand this, but I was speaking on the reality
>of how things are. I go to the University of Texas, the largest university
>in the nation. We have over 50,000 students and less than 5,000 are Black.
>That's not a technicality it's a fact.
Believe me I understand. None of the schools I have been to even
remotely had a fair representation of minorities. Education is the
gateway and it's painfully obvious that some people aren't being let
through (if you're paying attention)
>Without higher education at top schools, you don't even know how to
>become involved.
Well, I don't know if I agree with that, but higher education is
definitely critical to success.
>I understand this, but the realities speak for themselves.
>Pro sports have been around for years. It took until 2003 for
>a Black person to own a franchise.
>
>You don't seem to totally grasp the financial disparity that exists
>in this country.
I do, and I agree with everything you're saying. Maybe my post wasn't
totally clear. I agree with every single thing you are saying about
the way things are, I just don't want the solution to be for
blacks/minorities to "go over there" and start their own society and
economy. That's not fair to them, or good for anyone. I also agree
that education and getting minorities into positions of power which
a.) gets rid of people's instinctive racism and b.) gets more
minorities integrated into the economy/power structure.
>You were the one saying that we should form our own, not me.
>Remember?
Yea I misspoke on that one.
>Less than 40,000 people voted in the latest Austin Mayorial election.
>The new mayor had less than 20,000 votes. Some UT student could have
>got the student body to vote for him/her and become mayor of Austin.
>
>That's how things change.
>But, then you have hanging chads and lost votes, so I can understand
>lots of folks disenfranchisement as well.
No doubt. The process is corrupt as fuck. I think this is where my
opinion on the state of things differs from some peoples that I've
talked to...I think the system is corrupt but I don't think it's so
corrupt that they could resist a serious push by the outsiders to get
some power. I mean the last election was close, and so they were able
to steal it. But I don't think they could pull that off if it wasn't
so close...at least I hope they couldn't. I hear you about the
disinfranchisement too...because I am fucking mired in it myself. I'm
trying though...making an effort to change.
>> The problem is that the hiphop generation...and gen x and whoever...is
>> incredibly lazy and pathetic when it comes to actually taking action.
>> They talk a great game, but how many have written letters to their
>> congressmen/voted/participated in some meaningful way...not enough.
>> We have more than enough people to start changing the way things are,
>> but it's that same outsider attitude that keeps people from doing
>> anything. That's the ridiculous part of the outsider attitude..
>
>
>I've been saying this about hip-hop for years, it's eventually
>what made me not love h.e.r. anymore.
>
>Hip-hop needs to get a job! Get a hair cut, put on some pants that fit,
>and get a job!
LOL, I know what you're saying. I think what attracted me to hiphop
was that it was saying something and representing a community that had
problems and needed direction and for some prejudice to be struck
down. Now however many years later I am not at all impressed with
what I have found in the hiphop community in terms of action. That's
not universally true by a *LONG* fucking shot (some people are just
straight up AMAZING in their dedication)...but it is in most people's
cases. There are sooo many smart people...people with ideas...people
who are intelligent as fuck and so reasonable and capable of
understanding and working the situation out...but they're
disinfranchised and beaten. Part of that is society's fault and part
is their own.
>People who think that affirmative action is a hand out
>need to consider this:
>
>Even if you do get a hand out to get into a school or a job,
>you still have to *perform* in your position.
>You take the *same* exams as everyone else there.
>There are no 'affirmative action' exams seperate from the others.
>
>Nuff said.
Agreed 100%.
Steve S. Jackson
> In article <da6scvsoad487vs9s...@4ax.com>, endus
> <do...@email.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 22 May 2003 20:21:19 -0700, over...@mail.utexas.edu (OverTiME)
> > wrote:
> >
> > The caveat to that is that I think black people _as a whole_ a.)
> > should and b.) need to become integrated into the corporate/power
> > structure in order to level the economic/social playing field in this
> > country.
>
>
> That was the whole point of my reply.
>
> The only way to reach your point B, is by having Blacks in
> the industry hire more Blacks. It's innovators like Robert Johnson:
>
> "I'm going to create an experienced pool of [minorities] for those
> who say, 'We'd love to hire you if you had more exerience.'"
>
> And even Johnson got help.
> He started BET with a $500,000 loan from a white guy.
> Then sold it to Viacom (also not Black owned) for $3 billion.
> Which backs up my original point.
I see what you're saying. But now, Mr. Johnson needs to come with
some next level isht. I mean, truth be told, alot of rich brothas and
sistats try to help our own, but it just seems like a drop in the
bucket comapred to the other isht that's going on.
>
> This is why we need affirmative action too.
> The only way to end the disparities that slavery caused in this country
> will be to either
>
> a. give Blacks reparations (not going to happen in my lifetime)
> b. Have things like affirmative action which change the imbalance over time.
>
> Even it is unfair to some whites, so be it. It's called justice.
Thank you. Justice isn't fair. It's just.
> Say what you want, but there are a lot of whites who reaped (and some
> still reaping) the benefits from slavery. I'm talking huge
> corporations in agriculture (Phillip Morris), insurance (Aetna) and all
> other types of industry.
>
> Some sacrifices have to be made by alot of white folks who don't feel
> personally responsible. So unless they are going to give out reparations
> checks, I don't feel bad if some white kid doesn't get into Michigan Law.
> He's a smart kid, he can go somewhere else. He has endless possibilities
> becuz he's white. It could be worse. He could have been Black and grown up
> in early 1950's Alabama like my dad did, and not really had a choice.
>
Yahmean. You've articulated my feelings on the overall issue of
reparations. It's not about punishment, it's about justice. Sins of
the father and all of that. Any company that deals in cotton, sugar
cane (DOLE), or tobacco is personally responsible for the slave trade.
Those were the industries made the Americas and the Caribbean
profitable.
>
>
>
> > The primary reason for that
> > is that it directly affects them in a very real way. I've never
> > worked for Enron, no one in my family has ever worked for Enron...but
> > the hijinx that were going on over there affected the economy and
> > therefore my ability to get a job. Obviously there are even wider
> > reprocussions when you start talking about the impact on the economy.
>
>
> I understand this, but the realities speak for themselves.
> Pro sports have been around for years. It took until 2003 for
> a Black person to own a franchise.
who owns a franchise???
Plus, issues with moving and having to re-register even though your
zip code is that same and them saying you can't vote because you moved
around the corner. But I'm not bitter...
I tried to vote in every election before last year when they told me,
as far as voter reg. is concerned, I know longer exist. But I could
always tell the outcome except for the close races. They're decided
way before hand not by some overarching conspiracy or by "the media",
but by people and opinion polls. While not very accurate, opinion
polls are usually good gauges for elections. If person a has 60% and
person b has 20%, you can pretty much expect a landslide by a closer
margin (60-40).
>
>
> > The problem is that the hiphop generation...and gen x and whoever...is
> > incredibly lazy and pathetic when it comes to actually taking action.
> > They talk a great game, but how many have written letters to their
> > congressmen/voted/participated in some meaningful way...not enough.
> > We have more than enough people to start changing the way things are,
> > but it's that same outsider attitude that keeps people from doing
> > anything. That's the ridiculous part of the outsider attitude..
>
>
> I've been saying this about hip-hop for years, it's eventually
> what made me not love h.e.r. anymore.
>
> Hip-hop needs to get a job! Get a hair cut, put on some pants that fit,
> and get a job!
>
My argument is that folks who claim this culture, still have to live
and while you can catch some of us at Dead Prez shows saying f the
government, how much power do those fans or even dead prez really
have? Mr. suit and tie that's working at a law firm downtown who's
tired of dead prez calling him a house n***** is the one with some
amount of power. He's the cat that can make things happen and you can
catch him bumpin Mos Def in his Audi. But he gets ostracized because
he's viewed as not being down, or some isht like that. Folk need to
really, REALLY wake up.
OverTiME
> who owns a franchise???
Robert Johnson is the owner of the new NBA franchise in Charlotte.
He is the first minority in history to be the majority owner of
a professional sports franchise.
(It's why he sold BET, he was making power moves)
The most important fact regarding his majority ownership is that
he will be able to staff his organization with who he wants.
Combine this with Jordan in the front office and you can see the potential.
But I feel you on your other points as well.
Hardly any of the Blacks who have capital really are actually
trying to make a difference. They give money, but in comparison to
what they have it's actually nothing. Like giving a begger a dollar as
you pass by.
I also feel you on the Brother in the Audi scenario.
Happens all the time.
I've said this before, but hip-hop actually has alot of defeatism
in itself, caused by it's 'anti-authority/pro-underground'
stance.
But a brotha gonna work it out!
peace,
OT
p.s. Isn't it a lil outlandish that LeBron James got a $90 million
shoe endorsement deal from Nike and hasn't played a game yet?
He might be a huge flop in the NBA. (doubtful)
Steve S. Jackson
> steves...@earthlink.net (Steve S. Jackson) wrote in message news:
>
>
> > who owns a franchise???
>
>
>
> Robert Johnson is the owner of the new NBA franchise in Charlotte.
> He is the first minority in history to be the majority owner of
> a professional sports franchise.
>
> (It's why he sold BET, he was making power moves)
>
>
> The most important fact regarding his majority ownership is that
> he will be able to staff his organization with who he wants.
>
> Combine this with Jordan in the front office and you can see the potential.
>
That's right. I think you ro I mentioned this before. I totally
forgot. That needs to be some certified isht. I want to see him
create a dream team of corporate execs to make the Charlotte franchise
a representation of true power.
"All us blacks got is sports and entertainment 'til we even"
--Jay-Z, "Can't Knock the
Hustle"
>
> But I feel you on your other points as well.
>
> Hardly any of the Blacks who have capital really are actually
> trying to make a difference. They give money, but in comparison to
> what they have it's actually nothing. Like giving a begger a dollar as
> you pass by.
>
> I also feel you on the Brother in the Audi scenario.
> Happens all the time.
>
> I've said this before, but hip-hop actually has alot of defeatism
> in itself, caused by it's 'anti-authority/pro-underground'
> stance.
>
>
> But a brotha gonna work it out!
>
> peace,
>
> OT
>
>
> p.s. Isn't it a lil outlandish that LeBron James got a $90 million
> shoe endorsement deal from Nike and hasn't played a game yet?
>
> He might be a huge flop in the NBA. (doubtful)
That's what me and the floor director were talking about yesterday
here. This cat could get injured in the preseason and not play until
like Jan or Feb. And then you have all this cash dished out, and
nothing to show for it.