Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
Aztec-Assassin
I was watching tv the other day and that kid from 90210 was on a talk
show promoting his new hip-hop album. he started some name dropping and said
he had a studio at his house and was working with the pharcyde. A couple days
later I saw some program on Babyface's wife and her record label, Yab Yum.
Turns out the 90210 kid is with this label and I saw Slim Kid Tre kicking with
him. I feel kinda mixed up about it. Having kicked it with the Pharcyde before
I know they're real down to earth and don't front on anybody (not even the
90210 kid I guess) so I kinda think who am I to judge who they do buisness
with?
On the other hand, I feel a big letdown. Why'd they have to do some
work for this kid? I saw the kid's video and it was weak. It was some
teeny-bopper love rap/crap. I also know that you gotta pay the bills so
sometimes you have to do things that aren't so great (ie: Pharcyde "devil
music"). I guess I just hope the pharcyde got paid real good for the work and
don't think that 90210 kid has skills. any other OPINIONS?
pce-out,
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Loklass
In article <4nr4je$5...@lynx.unm.edu>, hip...@mirac.unm.edu
(Aztec-Assassin) writes:
> On the other hand, I feel a big letdown. Why'd they have to do
some
>work for this kid? I saw the kid's video and it was weak. It was some
>teeny-bopper love rap/crap. I also know that you gotta pay the bills so
>sometimes you have to do things that aren't so great (ie: Pharcyde "devil
>music"). I guess I just hope the pharcyde got paid real good for the work
and
>don't think that 90210 kid has skills. any other OPINIONS?
I heard about this but I didn't believe it and now I find out that it's
true. I'm fucking speechless. Please excuse me while I go throw up and
send my condolences out to The Pharcyde. I am going to write them a big
letter, basically pleading for them to truthfully answer the question:
"Why??!?!?!?!?!?!"
Peace
Loklass
"El que no siembra, no recoge"
Steve Wei
In article <4nsavq$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, lok...@aol.com (Loklass) says:
>
>> On the other hand, I feel a big letdown. Why'd they have to do
>some
>>work for this kid? I saw the kid's video and it was weak. It was some
>>teeny-bopper love rap/crap. I also know that you gotta pay the bills so
>>sometimes you have to do things that aren't so great (ie: Pharcyde "devil
>
>>music"). I guess I just hope the pharcyde got paid real good for the work
>and
>>don't think that 90210 kid has skills. any other OPINIONS?
>
>I heard about this but I didn't believe it and now I find out that it's
>true. I'm fucking speechless. Please excuse me while I go throw up and
>send my condolences out to The Pharcyde. I am going to write them a big
>letter, basically pleading for them to truthfully answer the question:
>"Why??!?!?!?!?!?!"
hey don't judge so quick... maybe pharcyde is just doing production work
for him or something like that. which is at least okay. I have faith
in pharcyde... I think...
>Peace
>Loklass
>"El que no siembra, no recoge"
peace.
styles, mb
Andre Murray
I haven't seen the video but I did get a chance to talk with dude (Brian
Green). He was pretty cool (he didn't rhyme for me though). He told me
that Tre was working on some tight shit for him.
I just got a sample of all the new Sony/Epic/550 Music/etc. sampler and
he was on it. The track was "One, Two, Threezes(?)" somethin' like that.
...it was alright. Take it for what it is and don't read too much into
it. If it's you, it's you.
So that you know Slim Kid Tre works with him and not the "Pharcyde"
necessarily. Just wanted to let you know homie.
Be Cool
Bro Gyasi
Joseph Patel/Jazzbo
The Unlocking (URB Magazine -- In Da Flow No. 49)
The pause button had been hit and I just stared at my stereo wondering
if I should even continue. Fifteen minutes prior to my confounded
state, I had eagerly ripped open a package arriving in the mail that
afternoon to find an innocuously labeled tape from Brian Green. Am I
still on the country list? I asked myself castigating the tape to the
corner of my table I hold reserved for overdubs. Then it struck me: Oh
you mean thaaat Brian Green. Brain Austin Green of Beverly Hills 90210
fame. Stress.
Almost ten months prior, I interviewed the Pharcyde as they just
finished recording Labcabincalifornia. After the hand-held had stopped
recording, it had become informal banter with Tre. "Have you been
doing much production lately?" I asked innocently enough after talking
about some work he did with Japanese pop trio Pizzicato 5. "I’m
producing an R&B singer by the name of Dionna. She’s cool," he began.
This should have been my first warning. "I’m also doing the album for
Brian Austin Green." Too late. Bomb dropped. "People will trip, but I
tell you, Brian’s dope."
Curiosity dictated I unpause the tape and take a listen. As each song
passed it became more and more unbearable and ultimately confusing.
Brian Austin Green…MC? It shouldn’t be surprising. After all, there is
a sizable list of young, white Hollywood males that have gotten into the
hip-hop game lately including Balthazar Getty (B-zar, producer for
Mannish), the actor formerly known as Parker Lewis (rapper?), and even
the pubescent Bud Bundy.
But again, Brian Green an MC? And what were the Pharcyde doing all over
the tape? This was like watching Steve Buscemi and Kevin Spacey doing a
new Stallone flick, like Tom Waits writing songs with Babyface, or
like…like the Pharcyde doing songs with David Silver.
What is particularly confusing, and you’ll know this if you hear the
tape though I don’t recommend purchasing it at all, is that Green’s
songs aren’t awful like a Hammer or Vanilla Ice song. In fact, if I
were to play them for you right now and not tell you who it was, you
would probably think it was kind of alright. Tre concocts beats that
could have easily been used as Pharcyde beats, raps with verses that
could pass as Pharcyde verses. And Green studio-tweaks his voice to
sound young, whiny, and well, like a member of the Pharcyde. In fact,
you would probably think his songs were those of the Wascals or Anotha
Level.
So what’s the problem? Green pulls it off and you’re ready to concede
mindshare to his project. Give the brother a break, you say. But isn’t
this a guy watched weekly on a TV show that is more condescending to
non-white people than a bad Letterman skit or an episode of Mama’s
Family? A guy who’s foolishly tried it all on the show – from deeply
sincere R&B songwriter to electronic beat boy to Chess King-dressed mic
checker to misunderstood music video director? I ask this with all the
apologies in the world to the Pharcyde, but what in the fuck was Tre
thinking?
"Man I don’t give a fuck. People can hate me or whatever," Tre
explained when probed. "’Cause you know what? They’re not my mother.
They’re not my girlfriend. They’re not my sister. They’re not the
things that I really fuckin’ care about. They’re not in my everyday
life. They’re not the Pharcyde. Youknowwhati’msayin? They’re not me.
I’m going to always like certain things that somebody else is not going
to like. I don’t even know those people on a personal level. And if I
did, I’d just keep going."
A valid excuse, but disappointing no less. What was that De La said?
If you don’t sink with momentum, what the fuck makes you think you can
touch me? Aside from the initial shock, what’s even more disturbing,
and what should ultimately be the question here: has hip-hop gotten to
such a mediocre and creatively stagnant state that essentially anybody
can make a "decent" record? Unfortunately, I believe that answer is
yes.
Think about it: the beats gets you 75%, if not more, of the way there.
Group Home’s "Supa Star" is a perfect example because honestly, not one
person rocked it for the lyrics. By buying Pharcyde beats, Green’s
album is built on the same sort of model. Even more outstanding is the
audacity of Green’s lyrical delivery. It could not have been more
bitten from Tre even if it were hereditary. Listen to "You Send Me,"
and you realize that he’s even got the uniquely Tre,
half-singing/half-rapping,
dip-the-voice-in-the-baritone-only-to-get-it-sky-high-again method
locked down.
Only a few years ago, the distinction between dope and commercial
hip-hop was easy. You had your Hammers on one side and your Brand
Nubians on the other; never the two shall meet. That’s not the case
anymore with producers and rappers having become interlocking Lego-like
parts that can be easily interchanged. When any crude rapper can be
paired with a truly creative DJ, and the pool gets flooded with these
types of rappers and producers, everything becomes muddled. If
anything, Brian Green’s record proves that the music can be replicated –
by anybody – quite easily.
People may or may not give a damn about One Stop Carnival, Brian Green’s
record. I would hope nobody does. But I know people that would die for
hip-hop and if indeed this album is shown a little love, it becomes a
sad day for all of us. The last song on side one of Green’s record is
titled "Didn’t Have A Clue." He at least, if anything, got that right.
Jazzbo
Ishmael The
okay, on the low...
if anybody gets to check out the brian austin green album, listen to the
song with atbann klann.. now this song is at least a year old, that is,
atbann did this song by themselves a year ago.. very recently brian
austin green got up on it... if you were to compare the two versions,
you would notice the lyrics have barely changed.. brian austin green used
atbans lyrics from the original version..
in another interesting tidbit, balthazar getty does beats for mannish,
and bud bundy from all my children has been a rapper for years.. he was
on Greg Mack's west coast compilation (also feat. the debut of mc
trouble) a while ago.. and that bitch adam weissman is still trying to
get signed to mo wax..
out...
brandon
Martin Karlsson
I saw the video on TV and what can I say . The production of course, is pretty
good . Though his rap sounds like if he totally copied Tre . Its like if Tre
has sat beside him, telling him what to drop and how to drop it when doing
the track . And whenever Brian doesnt copy him well enough, he stops the tape
and explains -No not like that, this is the way you should do it . The result
is lines lacking in flow and rhymes that really are carbone copies of Tre .
What we got is so a decent impersonater of Tre, nothing more and therefore
totally unitersting. Who would listen to records of say an Elvis
impersonater when you can get the real thing ?
APage20301
I hardly ever watch TV, so I have to ask...who the hell is Balthazar
Getty?
THE ONE
balthazar getty
this kid was in Young Guns, but which one was he?
adam weissman
I've heard this name, movies or tv?
I'm not obesessed w/ tv actors that want to be involved in the rap game
I'm just semi-interested.
THE ONE
for your nation
Femi
I can understand how the brother feels about hardcore artists
collaborating with the "enemy". However, I don't mind work hardcore
artists do in the commercial domain as long as they have taken care of me
first. For example, I heard Lauryn rapping on one of these dime a dozen
r & b tracks about a week ago, but I'm not worried. This is because she
and her partners have served the hip-hop community with a wicked album
and I'm confident that she will do it again come next album. I
understand completely where Loklass and Aztec are comming from but ask
yourselves these questions. Have the Pharcyde put out albums or remixes
that sound like what this kid has put put out? Nope. Are they going to
in the future? I seriously doubt it.
peace
Femi Akande
Oliver Wang
Jazz,
I'm glad to hear more of your input on this newsgroup b/c...god knows
intelligent voices are few and hard-to-find around here. I just heard
the David Green 12" yesterday and it IS scary...b/c I found it hard NOT
to like the sh*t. L.A. Jay's beats are groovy (as usual) and David
sounds so much like a member of the Pharcyde, it was hard to tell the
difference, no doubt. And while you're close to guilt tripping me out
of it, I gotta take another listen to the 12" before I pass judgement.
The other thing is...what if no one knew who the f- he was? Renamed
himself and tried to hide his 90210 roots...how should we judge him?
I don't necessary disagree with your insight on this, but on the flip
side, does hip hop really demand the payment of dues anymore? And if
it doesn't, should we hold Brian Green up as the devil anymore than
MANY artists who are dropping albums from nowhere ("nowhere" being a
relative geographic state of non-existance). I definitely wouldn't say
that I'm any kind of repository of hip hop knowledge or underground
lore, but there are a lot of artists who just kind of appear with a
record and I'm like "Hmm...nice sh*t, where they f- they from?"
Company Flow comes to mind...E.C. from Chicago too...or my current
flavor of the week, Perverted Rym Throwwas.
What I'm saying is that we all can condemn Brian Green b/c we know his
background and that makes him an easy target. 90210 is a racist show
and he plays a spoiled rich white kid who can pretty much dabble in
anything he wants...I guess real life mirrors fiction since lo and
behold, Green's got a 12" out on Sony now. But does this mean we
should judge all artists with the same critical eye to background and
history? And does this fly in the face of Rakim's oft-ofted, "It's not
where you're from, it's where you're at?"
This is not a disagreement with your point b/c Green's relative ease
into dropping product disturbs me too. However, I'm equally interested
in how such a situation developed to begin with. Why is it that New
York lapped up Group Home despite almost overwhelming critical opinion
that Lil Dap and Melachi couldn't rock the mic with a pound of
dynamite? In my opinion, Green is A problem, but he's not THE
problem...just a signifier for something larger.
But more on that as this dialogue progresses...
...push it along...
O-D.U.B.
Kyle Benjamin Jones
Damn, that's kind of deep. I never really thought of it that way. I
haven't heard the 12" yet, so I'll try to give it the benefit of the
doubt. The one thing I want to add to this, for better or for worse, is
that you have to realize the guy is ACTING on that show. So I mean, he
could be cool as sh*t about hip-hop, down with Pharcyde, representing his
style on vinyl and the one thing that people are going to have in their
head is it's that white guy from 90210. The point I'm tryin' to make is
that we're prejudging this guy before we here what he's got for hip-hop,
and us being followers of hip-hop should be the first to realize
prejudging someone is absolutely the wrong thing to do whether it be race
or in this case, an actor putting out his rhymes on wax. I'd say, give
the boy a chance... then base it on skills, definately NOT on what puts
food on the table.
KJ
Check out The Krib http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~kybjones/home.htm
--
-=-=-=-=-=- Kyle Jones -=-=- kybj...@indiana.edu -=-=-=-=-=-
**The Krib** http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~kybjones/home.htm
APage20301
In heard the Brian Green song. I wouldn't buy it, but It sounds okay, his
flow is interesting. I could listen to it, but then I listen to damn near
everything from Bjork to Diamond D to Aceyalone and back around to Rage
Against the Machine. The production is nice on Mr. Green's little song,
Tre did a good job on the boards...
Oliver Wang
One thing does seem kind of shady which is how it sounds like Green
pitch shifts his voice. I don't watch 90210, but that voice just
doesn't quite sound natural...and like Jazzbo pointed out, it sounds
like he purposefully changed his pitch to sound more Pharcyde-ish
(which he does).
I agree with Joon-ok's point that if we start getting down too close to
origins, a lot of rhymers might need to get their cards pulled, at the
same time, I think Jazzbo's original point was that Brian Green's
success probably has relied more on him being able to afford to come up
financially vs. spending time in the cipher, know what I'm saying? In
that situation, he's mediocore, but not wack...and he's able to buy
himself into a niche.
I listened to the 12" again last night, and I have to admit, it's hard
to dislike on the surface of it...and if i DIDN'T know who did it, I
might actually think it's decent. But no doubt, it's a mega Pharcyde
bite and I'm surprised the Pharcyde's ok with that. If Green isn't
reprsenting with his real voice, I think he needs to get off the pitch
shift tip and go with the real flow.
Peace,
O
kari orr
In article <Pine.HPP.3.93.96053...@apollo0.Stanford.EDU>, Sexy Henrietta <gen...@Leland.Stanford.EDU> says:
>
>Isn't Brian Austin Green gay? Wouldn't this make him one of the first gay
>rappers? And it's useless to talk shit about artists because of where
>they're from. If Premier and Guru were white, they would catch endless
>bullshit about claiming Brooklyn, even though they didn't grow up there
>(Texas?). It's like when you're wack, or people want to think you're
>wack, people will come up with endless reasons to dis you still otherwise,
>just to make themselves feel good, when if an artist is wack there is only
>one real relevant criterion: wackness.
>
>Another thing: Do I hear correctly when Chino XL says "1430 SAT groovin'
>ya."?
>
> Joon-Mo Ok
> gen...@Leland.Stanford.EDU
>
>
> - Line of the Week for May 26 1996 -
> Courtesy of Lyrics Born aka Asia Born
>
> "...Asia's got layers of flavors like jawbreakers and thong soles..."
you're missing the point. it could be brian austin green, or the fresh
prince, who it is and what they look like is unimportant.
What the real problem here is
economics. How many non hip hop listening, non hip hop culture respecting
90210, mtv heads are going to pick this record up and propel brian austin
green into the rap spotlight. How many more wack artists will subsequently be
passed up, as labels search for parker lewis to step back up on the mic.
As the hip hop consumer community we've seen it time and time again. Something
that can be easily sold and easily digested then makes it harder for unsigned
harder to get with groups such as freestyle fellowship or the red eye krew to
get major distribution. it happened with nwa's straight outta compton. That
album was dope, no question to that, but the result of it's popularity was
major labels looking for someone who had that sound, that edge. It's
acceptance into the hip hop world creates a money making atmosphere that a lot
of major labels and money making crews get over. Basically NWA started a lyrical
trend, a lot more groups from all over the world got off the sucker mc's and
black consciousness, and decided to talk about their lives in their neighborhoods.
NWA didn't influence the geto boys, but they made it possible for the geto boys to
become rich. Nwa and the geto boys in turn influence a lot of mc's coming up,
and then we have the 5th ward boys and the rest of texas gangsta sounding groups.
it happened again with the chronic, for the most part the rap world accepted
the rawness of gangsta rap and subsequently it became common place to hear a lot
more curses on a record. What made the chronic so important is the production
style was popular and a lot of groups from everywhere decided to get in on
the high end synthesizer sound. After 92/93 how many records came out with a
similar sound. Dre had created an atmosphere where that would sell, and a lot of
mc's got put on hold. Take it to the east, and you have illmatic. What nas did
was improve on the lyrical tip, the impact of his album shaped a lot of what we hear
on the major label tip from nyc. i can't hear shyhiem, or jay-z, or mic geronimo
and not anticipate another nas album. Nas made it possible for mobb deep to sell.
he set a trend. let's take a look at wu tang. The whole concept of group/solo
artists got into every one's minds. RZA's production style is now copied by
a lot of producers now. /But i can't forget badboy. We can blame them for
making 3 ideas to popular. the first one is the A-side radio/west coast/ everywhere
but nyc/ and the b-side east coast/ college radio singles. Masta ace said it
in houston, the new single at the time was sittin on chrome/ ya hard core, and
he was trying to do what puffy did. #2 the single followed by the remix single.
flava in ya ear, flava in ya ear remix. big poppa, big poppa rmx. The industry
jumped on it. Danger, Danger rmx. la, la, la la rmx, i could go on. The last and
final concept that they popularized is the ill conceived posse cut. there was a time
when posse cuts were rare. Nowadays you can't release a record unless there is a posse
cut with other famous mc's that aren't in your group. Danger pt II, real live pt II
purse snatchers pt II, what makes the world go round. That really got popular
after the flava in ya ear rmx, with big, rampage, busta, and ll. now everyone and
their brother has to have a posse cut. The posse element is a lot of reason why
wu tang clan is so popular. enter the 36 chambers had 2 solo cuts on it. These
marketing strategies make the hip hop industry stronger but weaken hip hop
culture by elevating the wrong people. merit doesn't equal economic success,
just ask organized konfusion.
So what we see with mr brian austin green is what we see with shaq. using money
you can buy your way into hip hop's spotlight. i don't think anyone
wants to live with that thought.
kari orr
house of phat beats
Jazzbo/Joseph Patel
Oliver & Co:
...the point passed you by...
The whole purpose of my column was to point out that indeed the 12"
doesn't sound bad. That hip-hop has gotten to a state that any old joe
can replicate something that to the ears sounds good. Does it sound
good because its truly good, because its pushing the bounds and
challenging our standards in whatever possible way? Or does it sound
good because in our ears have been trained not to look for the
challenges, because in comparison to everything else it fits right in,
because it sounds like the pharcyde? If I didn't tell you who it was,
you might like it. But think, why?
Yes, Brian Green is an actor. And he may not be the same on tv that he
is in real life...except that he's been using the show to get put on
musically since the show started. since he was, as i said in the
column, rockin' chess king clothes trying to beat music.
hiphop goes much deeper than knowing somebody or owning a couple of
albums. i'm not going to front and say i was listening to busy b,
double d and steinsky, and davy d back in the days they came out. but i
do feel i have a grasp on the music, the integrity of the music. and
that is something i don't believe brian green and several other hip hop
artists have. and for that, they can't be respected. its that simple.
q-bert versus wrecks n' effect.
dj shadow vs. puffy combs
micah 9 vs. warren g
organized konfusion vs. 2pac
there are definitely two (or more) distinct mentalities in hip-hop,
those that create and those that ride. brian green -- morphing himself
to trends like a temporal chameleon -- isn't in the category i would
choose to trust my senses with.
Jazzbo
Known Universe
kybj...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kyle Benjamin Jones) wrote:
>Damn, that's kind of deep. I never really thought of it that way. I
>haven't heard the 12" yet, so I'll try to give it the benefit of the
>doubt. The one thing I want to add to this, for better or for worse, is
>that you have to realize the guy is ACTING on that show. So I mean, he
>could be cool as sh*t about hip-hop, down with Pharcyde, representing his
>style on vinyl and the one thing that people are going to have in their
>head is it's that white guy from 90210. The point I'm tryin' to make is
>that we're prejudging this guy before we here what he's got for hip-hop,
>and us being followers of hip-hop should be the first to realize
>prejudging someone is absolutely the wrong thing to do whether it be race
>or in this case, an actor putting out his rhymes on wax. I'd say, give
>the boy a chance... then base it on skills, definately NOT on what puts
>food on the table.
This is true. I mean, is it really any different than from when Guru
was working as a mail sorter in Brooklyn before he hooked up with
Primo? Everybody has to make a living, and it just so happens that
Mr. Green does so by acting. But I think the real problem that most
heads will have with this entire episode is a part of the "Back in the
Days Syndrome". That is, "back in the days", didn't an MC have to pay
dues _in the hip-hop arena_ before he or she got put on wax? It seems
that with the advent of sampling technology, literally anybody can buy
a pair of Technics 1200s, an Akai 950 and an SP1200, a microphone, a
shitload of old records and some professional studio time and turn out
a rap album. Unfortunately, I feel that what we are seeing today is
rap's intial simplicity and access to the common people emerging as
its greatest flaw. You know how the old saying goes: "If you could
bottle that and sell it, you'd make a million bucks". Guess what? It
just happened. Like Ollie said, Mr. Green's album isn't THE problem,
it's A problem and symptomatic of an art form that is creatively
desperate and in disarray.
peace
Known Universe
----------
"No more props. I want property."
----------
Vaz
In article <4onqvl$d...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu
(kari orr) wrote:
> you're missing the point. it could be brian austin green, or the fresh
> prince, who it is and what they look like is unimportant.
>
> What the real problem here is
> economics. How many non hip hop listening, non hip hop culture respecting
> 90210, mtv heads are going to pick this record up and propel brian austin
> green into the rap spotlight. How many more wack artists will
subsequently be
> passed up, as labels search for parker lewis to step back up on the mic.
Things deleted...
> So what we see with mr brian austin green is what we see with shaq.
using money
> you can buy your way into hip hop's spotlight. i don't think anyone
> wants to live with that thought.
>
> kari orr
> house of phat beats
First off I wanna say that this a good-ass post. Oliver and Kari, ya'll
fools break down science.
You make a good point about some fool coming up who gots no skills and
much cash. It happened awhile back with Chilly Tee (I think about 93'). He
is the son of the guy who owns Nike. Anyways this kid Chilly Tee bought
the Bomb Squad to produce his joint and the shit never caught on mostly
because it was straight wack. I don't think many people knew who his pops
was. Another thing is how many fools are out there that got hella cash and
want to put out a record- I don't think that many so this shouldn't be a
problem.
What should be a problem is all these hip hop artists that are somewhat
establishe that put on there lifelong friend with an album just because
they are down. Its like some hip hop nepotism.
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Let them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no
concern from it; but I should suffer the misery
of devils, where I to make a whore of my soul
- Saul Alinsky
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Rick Redus
In article <31AFBE...@earthlink.net>, Jazzbo/Joseph Patel
<thej...@earthlink.net> wrote:
This post is similar to the one a couple weeks ago where Quiz was
contending that the Dogg Pound "wasn't hip-hop". He presented a list of
reasons, and when you took a close look at the list the reasons were
really just opinions. Opinions are great, but when you are trying to
prove a point they are weak ammo. There are interesting questions raised
by this Brian Greene phenomenon, and ironically it seems to me that they
are being pointed out, followed up, explored and analyzed far better by O,
kari and others than by Jazzbo, the guy who brought it up in the first
place.
--
RR
Jazzbo/Joseph Patel
ramblings...
I can take that criticism, but i'm not sure why.
I'm not speaking about opinions...everybody has opinions and a
confluence of opinons don't define truth, so i agree with you that they
are weak ammo in settling the issue.
I'm also not saying that hip-hop is this and hip-hop is that. At least,
that's not what I was trying to say. Its all hip-hop whether we like it
or not. Integrity is different. Its all hip-hop but there are people
who see the music as a "come up," a job, a way to make money. There are
those that see it instead as art. Not a vehicle to an end, but the end
itself. Art to be appreciated, absorbed, accepted, argued, judged, or
shunned. Art for society, representing people. There are different
motivations and that's what I'm talking about.
Brian Austin Green...imagine if tre didn't produce his album. imagine
he used the same wack casio beats that he used three years ago when he
was trying to get a deal then, singing love songs and shit. is he still
hip-hop then? He's only considered in the circles because he was
represented by the pharcyde. Is parker lewis "hip-hop" because he can
rhyme words? I don't think anybody can say where hiphop ends or begins,
but i think that there is a definite way to judge an artist's integrity
and i don't think brian green has it. yes, he's an actor and has to
make a living, but hip-hop is not a music where some rich kid can get
into without paying dues, just because he can afford to fulfill his
fancy. that's exploitation no matter how you look at it and i'll be
damned if i'm going to let something like that happen to something i
care a lot about. tomorrow he'll probably be into something like
"trip-hop" or "jungle." dues paying is more than just time put into
something; its emotion, toil, soul. how much of your heart do you give
to the music? how much RESPECT (and that's really the key issue) do you
give hip-hop? If you think you can enter the fray after you learn how
to rhyme a verse, then that's a lack of respect for the music that has
taken years to cultivate.
Aztec-Assassin
Known Universe (jlin...@mustang.uwo.ca) wrote:
: "back in the days", didn't an MC have to pay
: dues _in the hip-hop arena_ before he or she got put on wax? It seems
: that with the advent of sampling technology, literally anybody can buy
: a pair of Technics 1200s, an Akai 950 and an SP1200, a microphone, a
: shitload of old records and some professional studio time and turn out
: a rap album. Unfortunately, I feel that what we are seeing today is
: rap's intial simplicity and access to the common people emerging as
: its greatest flaw.
Universe's follow up is what my disillussionment is with. Not the
Pharcyde. Not an actor who might possibly be really down with hip-hop.
How can 'paying dues' be taken out of the formula of hip-hop? I
understand having bank and street credibility after your debut album but
I've always felt that everyone had to pay dues in the beginning....
pce-out
Oliver Wang
This thread is definitely getting more interesting...
Ok J, I feel you on what you had to say...you're right, I think I
missed the heart of your original post by focusing too much on Green's
origins and not looking enough at his impact. Nonetheless, Kari's post
that followed up the subthread I started was excellente (as
usual...Kari...watch those line breaks though!). All that being said,
RR, I appreciate the defense, but Jazz wasn't dissing any of us, he
just wanted to reassert his original point, nothing wrong with that at all.
All these qualifiers being said, I would concur with JB about how
Green's relative ease into hip hop is a bad sign. Again, I think Green
isn't the cause of it, merely a signal that something is wrong. But my
question is: how do you stop it? If producers like Pharcyde are
willing to be guns for hire on the SP1200, then maybe Green got the
best beats he could by. Whether or not he's paid his dues, or is a
part of hip hop's tradition is besides the point once you realize that
hip hop's tradition tends to take a back seat to its value as a commodity.
I like Kari's breakdown of the economics of it b/c hip hop culture
seems too tied into that now (well, it has been for a damn long time).
Frankly, while I hope that Green's LP goes nowhere, I suspect that he
has potential to sell more than a lot of other MFs (wouldn't it be
ironic if he outsold Pharcyde?) As heads, I don't know if we can stop
that, we can only hope that most of us don't respect his work and won't
support it on the underground, but it's not like lack of respect hurt
Vanilla Ice's record sales right?
My point being...I don't think Green's entry signals hip hop's
creative stagnancy like some kind of artistic tumor. Maybe in
Hammer's day it was easier to tell the difference between pop
hop and hip hop, but what would have stopped Hammer from
pointing his scrilla towards someone more on the street level to
produce him (say, isn't that what he's doing now with
Deathrow?)? I don't think the times have changed so much as
that the industry is cooling off to bubble gum rap. Like Kari
said, blame Bad Boy, but it's not like they engineered their
sh*t to f--- up hip hop...Puffy and Co. wanted to sell records,
like practically everyone else in the game, and they found the
right formula for our times. I'd also say that Wu Tang's
unparalleled success means that you're going to find no-due
fools paying out good loot to sound like the Wu in hopes of both
A) making that cream and B) be "hard".
The Fugees' ridiculous ascent to double platinum will inevitably
spawn clones with no credentials too, but even though that'll
probably happen in '96 and '97, how different is that from the De
La biters that came up after "3 Ft. High" went gold in '89? Feel
me? Green's just a better example b/c he's so obviously fake (at
least to some), but I'd argue that he's just the latest in a long
line. The minute hip hop became a commodity that made people
money, it's creative force already became purchasable. It's just
a matter of who's willing to sell and who isn't.
Maybe what hip hop needs to do is raise the stakes (no De la
puns here kids). If Green's sh*t sounds "good", then hip hop
artists who "represent the real", need to make their sh*t so
f---in good that Green's quality drops to "faking jacks crap"
level.
Peace,
O
Oliver Wang
I feel you, but what can you do? How to you "prove" dues? If I played
you a song that you thought was totally f---in hype, then told you that
the artist bought a producer, didn't write his or her own lyrics, and
got into hip hop six months ago, how easy is it for you, or anyone, to
say, "Damn, well...f- that then."
Not to disrespect the talented female MCs out there, but isn't that how
a lot of them got their start? They were "selected" by prominent men
in hip hop to be an investment b/c female MCs were seen more like a
gimmick than give true dap most times. In a lot of cases too, they
weren't writing their own rhymes and they didn't necessarily have the
same type of street credentials that others had. I doubt many of them
made it to the top, but at the same time, you can't discount that the
belief in paying dues is more like a romantic fantasy than reality in a
day where enough money can buy you the image at the very least. And
how much of hip hop is image? Too much.
Peace,
O
***Marbles***
I had heard that this kid was supposedly "down" with the hip-hop
scene, but I would never have expected the Pharcyde to be so heavily
involved. NOT because the kid is white, but I have this image of him
driving a Porsche to high school in Beverly Hills. I don't know a damn
thing about him, but I don't see him as someone who would try to advance
the culture if he wasn't trying to make it.
Does that make sense to ya'll? When I heard that Bud Bundy was
into hip-hop, I laughed. But I will give him some kind of props for
infusing his interest in hip-hop into his show. The only episode I ever
watched of 90210 is when the black family moved into the neighborhood.
That show is the POOREST display of ANYTHING on television. I know that
the kid's an actor and he's looking for his big break, but that show
really offers nothing for anyone (especially hip-hop enthusiasts).
I gotta admit...I'm afraid that I may like the song when I hear
it. Does that mean that I'm not "real"? I'm the type of person who
likes what I like and that's it. I can't always explain why I like
something, but I won't deny it if I do.
However, if this kid (what's his name? something Green?) bought
his way into the industry, I can't respect him (as a hip-hop artists).
Like Joradn playing for the White Sox. MJ gets no props from me for not
paying his dues to play. I'm certain that there are hundreds of young
kids fighting & scrapping for their chance to make it. Jordan made it on
his name alone.
Like I said, I don't know anything about him. If he is truly a
supporter of the music & culture, then respect to him. If he's trying to
get somewhere by putting out an album then forget him. You've got to pay
dues, whether it's being in the background supporting other people in
their moves or just trying to keep the culture alive and moving. Has he
done anything for hip-hop before his project?
Peace,
_______________________________________________________________________________
***Trey*** ***John F. Harris, III*** ***Marbles***
E-MAIL- jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>>> Don't Be Down With Anybody, Let'Em All Be Down With You - HEAVY D. <<<
Insufficient Data
In <Pine.OSF.3.91.960603...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
***Marbles*** <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
>
> Does that make sense to ya'll? When I heard that Bud Bundy was
>into hip-hop, I laughed.
Y'all fools are so selfish, and act like hip-hop is yours and yours
only!! I mean, y'all act like only black males who were BORN into
hip-hop are the only people that "have the right" to listen to it.
There are many minority artists that have broken into the rock scene
with no problems at all--Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour,
Body Count(which I suppose to you makes Ice-T a "sell-out" because he
can do one more kind of music besides hip-hop), and that guy from
hootie and the blowfish to name a few. And if the rock industry did
bitch about it, everyone would jump on their backs and call them
anti-semetic, right? Well what the hell is the difference? Stop acting
like hip-hop is yours and yours only, if the man (Brian Green) wants to
have a hip-hop album, at least he is trying to make a difference, and
that is more than you can say about most commercial rappers with the
same-ass styles that are getting played out. The main thing I see
bringing hip-hop down is not the white men in suits that run the record
labels, or the politicians trying to censor every other word that comes
out of rappers' mouths, although those are obstacles. It's the battles
WITHIN the industry, the coast war, this whole "white boys aren't
allowed to rap" thing, and rappers that get arrested for doing stupid
shit, if anything is bringing hip-hop down, this is it, because it is
devouring us, the hip-hop community, from the inside. As long as we
are strong, we can keep those outside problems out, but if we give in
on the inside, the world of hip-hop will lose its support and come
crashing down before our eyes. Stick to hip-hop's roots, and let's get
that "one love" thing going again. Show some support instead of being
so damn negative, and maybe we can get somewhere with this thing called
"hip-hop".
Poncho
Hey yo, I saw that fool on SOUL TRAIN like last week and his shit was
WACK!! He can't rhyme at all. Is his hip hop name just "Brian Green" or
did he try and flip some shit and make it sound even dumber? Yo, maybe if
he wasn't a stuck-up rich white kid on that bullshit excuse for a show,
he'd sell SOME records--as in 5 or 10. But you can't tell me that brothers
in South Central will be bumpin' some Brian Green in the coming
months....Shit..that punk will get laughed at all over...trying to jump on
hip hop on the 90210 tip...
Of course, that's just my damn opinion and I could be wrong.
Poncho
kari orr
In article <4p2lie$g...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, bob...@ix.netcom.com(Insufficient Data ) says:
>Y'all fools are so selfish, and act like hip-hop is yours and yours
>only!! I mean, y'all act like only black males who were BORN into
>hip-hop are the only people that "have the right" to listen to it.
no kid, it has nothing to do with color. i've never like third bass,
i don't like the beastie boys, but company flow kicks lyrics i like.
them being white was a big suprise but 8 steps to perfection is
probably one of the best hip hop criticisms that ever made it to wax.
>There are many minority artists that have broken into the rock scene
>with no problems at all--Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour,
>Body Count(which I suppose to you makes Ice-T a "sell-out" because he
>can do one more kind of music besides hip-hop), and that guy from
>hootie and the blowfish to name a few.
Are you suggesting rock and roll is mainly for whites? i wasn't around
when rock and roll started, but the people invented, originated created
innovated rock and roll are black people. house, techno, hip hop, blues
gospel, jazz were all created by black people. new wave was even created
by black people. There was a time when the most popular artists in all of
these genre's were black and the people who listened to those genre's
were mostly black. try to find a brother man listening to jazz or
rock and roll. the mainstream of both of those musics no longer have
that soul element. Talk to some older black people. The music industry
used to take songs by black artists and then have white artists do the song
so they could sell it. if you look into the roots of censorship of popular
music, you'll find it in the kkk. when rock and roll began, it was called
the rhythms of the jungle. let me spell it out for you, black people
are considered to be jungle people. They were afraid of what the songs
would do to "impressionable" white youth. Look at elvis, and picture
him in context. the original vanilla ice. all of his singing styles
and stage mannerisms were unheard of for white artists at the time,
but the rolling of the hips were common place for black performers.
Nowadays the music has gone so far from the roots, that it has escaped us.
little richard, bb king should be making oasis's money, madonna's money
all them, but at the time, and still to some extent now we can't capitalize
on our own creation. And when someone else can capitalize on your
creation and make it seem like it was there's to begin with and start
and you look at yourself and realized someone stole, or sold your soul.
And if the rock industry did
>bitch about it, everyone would jump on their backs and call them
>anti-semetic, right? Well what the hell is the difference? Stop acting
>like hip-hop is yours and yours only, if the man (Brian Green) wants to
>have a hip-hop album, at least he is trying to make a difference, and
>that is more than you can say about most commercial rappers with the
>same-ass styles that are getting played out. The main thing I see
>bringing hip-hop down is not the white men in suits that run the record
>labels, or the politicians trying to censor every other word that comes
>out of rappers' mouths, although those are obstacles. It's the battles
>WITHIN the industry, the coast war, this whole "white boys aren't
>allowed to rap" thing, and rappers that get arrested for doing stupid
>shit, if anything is bringing hip-hop down, this is it, because it is
>devouring us, the hip-hop community, from the inside. As long as we
>are strong, we can keep those outside problems out, but if we give in
>on the inside, the world of hip-hop will lose its support and come
>crashing down before our eyes. Stick to hip-hop's roots, and let's get
>that "one love" thing going again. Show some support instead of being
>so damn negative, and maybe we can get somewhere with this thing called
>"hip-hop".
let hip hop come down. i don't think kool herc intended all of this.
i remember in 93 watching yo mtv raps, and seeing kool herc at the
source awards yelling where's my check. Afrika bam wasn't about
pulling glocks or dissing women, hip hop has gotten way to far from
it roots. look at it now, there are types of rap, people divide
themselves by coasts. i hope every major label stops printing hip hop,
make it a crime to listen to it. sell albums like you sell pornography, put it behind the counter
and show id let's see how many people are really down for this
music. stigmatize it, make it that dirty ghetto stuff that people
can't get rich making, the only write rhymes because they want to.
those white men in suits that run labels or hot 97 are vultures,
their only making records to make money. why do you think you
have tupac dissing the east coast, or 25 to life dissing the west coast
in videos. you know the crips or the bloods don't have the money to
put themselves on wax, somebody had to come with it.
when i get older and have kids, and break out the turntables for their
birthday parties, put nas on the turntable, and then have my son tell me
that's white music... today if someone were to put a megadeth record on
at any party in a black neighborhood believe me people will stop talking.
Music that black people have created has become foreign to them. it no
longer has a beat. i don't want to see that happen to hip hop. and
the way things are going, it's on it's way, but not if i can help it.
kari orr
house of paht beats
Oliver Wang
From: Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
Sorry, but I have to take some issues with this post.
> /* Written 5:49 PM Jun 4, 1996 by bob...@ix.netcom.com in igc:rec.music.hip- */
> In <Pine.OSF.3.91.960603...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
> ***Marbles*** <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
> There are many minority artists that have broken into the rock scene
> with no problems at all--Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour,
> Body Count(which I suppose to you makes Ice-T a "sell-out" because he
> can do one more kind of music besides hip-hop), and that guy from
> hootie and the blowfish to name a few. And if the rock industry did
> bitch about it, everyone would jump on their backs and call them
> anti-semetic, right?
Check your musical history. Rock's roots are in BLACK music. The fact
that it has come to be associated with whites has a lot to do with how
the music industry, run mostly by people outside the African American
community, co-opted the music made by black musicians and then used white
cover bands to popularize it with their industry blessing. For starters,
go read Nelson George's "The Death of Rhythm and Blues" for some history
on the shadiness that went on. I hardly think Jimi Hendrix "broke" into
the rock scene. Far as I'm concerned, people like him and others have
reclaimed what was taken from them in generations past.
Seriously, how can you call them "minority" artists when most of American
music, born and bred indigenously, has been created by people of color?
Your race baiting bothers me just b/c it seems seeped in ignornace of
culture, music and ethnicity and you seem to forget that music in America
has NEVER been color blind, especially when money becomes involved.
> like hip-hop is yours and yours only, if the man (Brian Green) wants to
> have a hip-hop album, at least he is trying to make a difference, and
> that is more than you can say about most commercial rappers with the
> same-ass styles that are getting played out.
What the f--- is Brian Green then? He's coming out on Sony. Last time I
checked, they were as major as major gets. Even worse, he's totally
ripped off the Pharcyde's style, as bad as a bite as biting gets. Have
you listened to his 12"? If you have, can you deny that he has his own
style and isn't trying to bank on Pharycde's success?
> The main thing I see
> bringing hip-hop down is not the white men in suits that run the record
> labels, or the politicians trying to censor every other word that comes
> out of rappers' mouths, although those are obstacles. It's the battles
> WITHIN the industry, the coast war, this whole "white boys aren't
> allowed to rap" thing, and rappers that get arrested for doing stupid
> shit, if anything is bringing hip-hop down, this is it, because it is
> devouring us, the hip-hop community, from the inside. As long as we
> are strong, we can keep those outside problems out, but if we give in
> on the inside, the world of hip-hop will lose its support and come
> crashing down before our eyes. Stick to hip-hop's roots, and let's get
> that "one love" thing going again. Show some support instead of being
> so damn negative, and maybe we can get somewhere with this thing called
> "hip-hop".
>
I respect your idealism, but I think your wrong. Hip hop has its internal
problems, but so have a lot of other cultural signifiers, music,
literature or otherwise. You think the Harlem Renaissance was all wine
and roses? Hell, you want to talk internal problems, look at the be bop
jazz greats. How many of them were hardcore, f---ed up drug addicts (read
Miles Davis' autobiography for a taste)? Billy Holiday didn't die of
natural causes. Nor did Bird. Yet, their music was revered and thanks (a
dubious word in this case) to traditionalists like Wynton Marsalis, it
still is. Hip hop's no different in that respect...it's going to have its
internal turmoils, probably always will.
I don't think hip hop is dying from the inside. I don't think hip hop is
as resistant to white rappers as you may think, though I admit it's no
walk through the park either. I do think the coast war is getting out of
hand in some ways. But I can't fathom how the industry cannot be seen as
being a source of the problems. I think a lot of the negativity in hip
hop is promoted by labels who have noticed that this sh*t sells. Stakes
is high remember? And so are profit margins. If a group like Mobb Deep
can go gold...Raekwon too...talking death and guns, you know some cat in
a suit somewhere is going to take notice.
You don't think NWA set sh*t off in the industry circa the late 80s? You
think Dre alone is to blame for all the Chronic-cloning that goes on?
The music industry is concerned with selling records, not community
longevity and not creative development, unless either factors into how
much product they can move. They are a business. Hip hop is certainly
not devoid of materialism, but if you believe that hip hop is an art
first, a business second, then you won't put your core audience down just
to make a buck. As Ras says, "Before you make dollars, it must make
sense" and a lot of hip hop's faking jacks are in it for the dolo above
all else.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...if hip hop goes more DIY
(thanks Mercer) and indie, profits may decline, but the overall quality
will go up and I think you'll see a lot of the bullsh*t start to die out
b/c there'd be no money in it.
I say this b/c I trust this community, I trust the heads. I trust people
like Kari in Texas or Flight in Chicago, regardless of geography, can
pick up a record and call it bullsh*t if it sucks or give it props if
it's fat. I trust that this core audience that supposedly supports hip
hop for life will do the filtering for the next wave of hip hop that's
going to take more chances and be more independent. Nowadays, record
sales usually don't have sh*t to do with quality, they have to do with
marketing and promotions. But if the majors don't play a part in that,
hip hop's gonna move based on word of mouth and the records that sell are
gonna be the ones that heads support and love.
I trust this community, I think we're gonna be ok. I think people like
Brian Green wouldn't make it in just this community, I think a white
rapper with skills would.
I'm going to say one last thing and it gets back to all the race baiting
that the previous author put in his post:
Respect that hip hop was, is and perhaps always will be a black music,
just like jazz, just like the blues. Respect that music is culture and
respect that culture is not just an amorphous concept. Culture is
people, culture is history and to ignore those people and that history is
to ignore culture, is to disrespect culture and is to disrepsect the very
thing that you claim to love.
One love indeed...
O-D.U.B.
Jazzbo/Joseph Patel
Word up O-Dub. This whole Brian Austin Green thing has given me a
goddamn headache. I like the other kid's comments about "If I like it,
would that not make me "real?" Kid made a salient point.
I think what I wanted to express about BAG (funny, huh?) is that...I
don't know. I could give a fuck about the consequences to him. What
I'm more concerned about is the consequences to the music of hip-hop.
If the barrier to entry is low, what does that say about the integrity
of the music. Its an economic concept: if the barrier to entry into a
market is low, that doesn't say much about the standards of the
industry.
What's really to prevent me, a virtual no rap talent motherfucker, from
writing some Malachi and Nutcracker style vibes and getting Shadow to do
beats? If it blew up, what would that say? As long as we as fans
continue to hold high standards for the music, the overall quality of
the music will be better. It raises the bar over which other wannabees
must overcome. I think that was my point. That hip-hop's standards
have lowered, exampled by this latest turn of events. But maybe, they
haven't lowered. Maybe its been like this since the days of Vanilla
Ice. But then again, during that time, you knew Vanilla Ice was over
there and that the music we loved, from the artists we loved, resided in
a different area. Now the lines have muddled. Who knows. Yeah, I like
some of the beats on BAG's record, but his lyrics are wack. If you pay
attention to lyrics, you'll get drowned in cliches and phrases that you
know were made up to fit his "rapper" character. Think BAG talkin'
about bitches frontin' has any truth to it? That shit made me laugh.
Then again, would it matter if it did. Anyways...
Jazzbo
***Marbles***
I don't know if I consider hip-hop to be exclusively "ours", but
I do believe that hip-hop is a part of black music. That doesn't mean
that other races can't participate or be active, but it refers to its
origins and creators.
I don't understand why it upset you when I laughed after hearing
Bud Bundy was into hip-hop. After seeing him on MArried With Children
for years, it was hard to imagine him as being into the scene. But like
I said, I give him props for showing his interest in ways OTHER than
putting an album out.
I don't know anything about this Brian Green kid, but it's the
same thing. After living with the Beverly Hills image for years, it's
hard to see him as an MC. Will he support the culture in ways other than
putting out an album? Or is he trying to cash in on his popularity by
cutting tracks with the Pharcyde? I don't know...I can't tell you
because I don't know a thing about him.
I hope that he really is down for the cause. That's how you earn
my respect. By making positive moves for the culture.
Peace,
_______________________________________________________________________________
***Trey*** ***John F. Harris, III*** ***Marbles***
E-MAIL- jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>>> Don't Be Down With Anybody, Let'Em All Be Down With You - HEAVY D. <<<
On 5 Jun 1996, Insufficient Data wrote:
> In <Pine.OSF.3.91.960603...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
> ***Marbles*** <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
> >
>
> > Does that make sense to ya'll? When I heard that Bud Bundy was
> >into hip-hop, I laughed.
>
> Y'all fools are so selfish, and act like hip-hop is yours and yours
> only!! I mean, y'all act like only black males who were BORN into
> hip-hop are the only people that "have the right" to listen to it.
> There are many minority artists that have broken into the rock scene
> with no problems at all--Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour,
> Body Count(which I suppose to you makes Ice-T a "sell-out" because he
> can do one more kind of music besides hip-hop), and that guy from
> hootie and the blowfish to name a few. And if the rock industry did
> bitch about it, everyone would jump on their backs and call them
> anti-semetic, right? Well what the hell is the difference? Stop acting
> like hip-hop is yours and yours only, if the man (Brian Green) wants to
> have a hip-hop album, at least he is trying to make a difference, and
> that is more than you can say about most commercial rappers with the
> same-ass styles that are getting played out. The main thing I see
Sparty
Come on Come on now...
We are talking about music here. Music is entertainment for the human
mind. You can not start claiming a genre of music to be rightfully yours.
Everybody is free to the whatever the fuck they want. And whoever is best
at it will be making the most money and be getting the most props.
The competition is open. What do you mean BB King should be making
Oasis's money??? Oasis is getting theirs because they are fucking good at
what they're doing: making rock songs. BB King and Little Richard COULD
be making oasis's money, but the're not. People who buy music are not
stupid. They buy what they like to hear... They dont give two good fucks
about the roots.
You could say the same about sports. Sports, just like music is
entertainment. Basketball's roots? Some white guy invented it in the late
19 century. Baseball? A white guy. Football? A white guy. Athletics? The
ancient Greeks: white guys. YET, these sports are now dominated by
blacks. Why? Because they're damn good at it. So, have these sports
strayed from their roots? Should Larry Bird be making Jordans money? Fuck
no! Jordan is a billion times better than Bird, so he DESERVES to get his
props. Aint nobody bitching about roots. Its all about the skillz....
Peace Out
Sparty
Douglas Smith
In article <31B6B2...@hector.unil.ch> Sparty wrote:
>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:25:16 +0200
>From: Sparty <9542...@hector.unil.ch>
>Newsgroups: rec.music.hip-hop
>Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
>
>
>
>
>
>Whoever is best at it will be making the most money and be getting the most props...
>
Wait a minute. First of all, having "skillz" has nothing to do with selling records.
Case(s) in point: Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. They both sold a shitload of records,
probably more than any other rappers in history, and are probably two of the wackest
rappers on the planet. Moreover, they get virtually no props. So for you to say
that "whoever is best at it will be making the most money and be getting the most
props" is just wrong. The same holds true for any genre of music. Charlie Parker is
arguably the best jazz saxophonist of all time, yet Kenny G has sold more records
than he ever did. Does that mean Kenny G is better? Hell no. Talent has absolutely
nothing to do with record sales.
The competition is open. Whoever is best at it will be making the most money and be
getting the most props... People who buy music are not stupid. They buy what they
like to hear... They dont give two good fucks about the roots.
Precisely the problem my boy. The competition may be open, but when the "judge" is
the general public (who are known to be extremely fickle and not very discriminating
in their musical tastes) and people who aren't particularly down for hip-hop, there
is a genuine problem. For when we have people who have no concept of what hip-hop is
deciding what's good, what's bad and what's representative of hip-hop, then the music
ultimately suffers and becomes something that it wasn't intended to be.
What do you mean BB King should be making
>Oasis's money??? Oasis is getting theirs because they are fucking good at
>what they're doing: making rock songs. BB King and Little Richard COULD
>be making oasis's money, but the're not.
Why shouldn't B.B. King make as much money as Oasis? Are you trying to say he is
less talented than them? Get the fuck outta here! He's not making as much because
blues is not as popular as rock, not because he's any less talented. Get a grip.
>We are talking about music here. Music is entertainment for the human
>mind. You can not start claiming a genre of music to be rightfully yours...
>
Knowing and claiming the roots of a particular form of music doesn't deny any human
being the right to enjoy that form of music. It just means that you're saying "this
genre of music was initiated and created by this group of people". What people are
concerned about is the prospect of another genre music, rooted in the experience of
blacks in America and for the most part, strictly the domain of blacks, hispanics and
other minorities in America, being "taken over" by people who want to claim it as
something they started or originated. If you don't think this has been done in the
past, look at rock-n-roll, jazz and blues.
>You could say the same about sports. Sports, just like music is
>entertainment. Basketball's roots? Some white guy invented it in the late
>19 century. Baseball? A white guy. Football? A white guy. Athletics? The
>ancient Greeks: white guys. YET, these sports are now dominated by
>blacks. Why? Because they're damn good at it. So, have these sports
>strayed from their roots? Should Larry Bird be making Jordans money? Fuck
>no! Jordan is a billion times better than Bird, so he DESERVES to get his
>props. Aint nobody bitching about roots. Its all about the skillz....
Your argue here is ignorant at best, racist at worst. You can't say the same thing
about sports. Blacks may dominate some sports, but they have never tried to claim
basketball, baseball or football as games that they invented. Whites HAVE done that
with rock-n-roll and, to a limited degree, with jazz and blues. Moreover, the reason
why blacks dominate some games like basketball is because sports represents one of
the few areas of American society where, at least now, the color of one's skin
doesn't diminish one's opportunities, at least not on the playing field. Using your
train of thought, you could easily say that whites dominate the majority of
professional fields in America because they are better than other racial or ethnic
groups. By the way, the ancient Greeks did not invent athletics, they contributed to
athletics just like every other ethnic group in the world.
Insufficient Data
In <31B6B2...@hector.unil.ch> Sparty <9542...@hector.unil.ch>
writes:
>Come on Come on now...
>mind. You can not start claiming a genre of music to be rightfully
>Everybody is free to the whatever the fuck they want. And whoever is
best
at
>what they're doing: making rock songs. BB King and Little Richard
COULD
fucks
>about the roots.
>
>entertainment. Basketball's roots? Some white guy invented it in the
late
>19 century. Baseball? A white guy. Football? A white guy. Athletics?
The
>ancient Greeks: white guys. YET, these sports are now dominated by
>blacks. Why? Because they're damn good at it. So, have these sports
>strayed from their roots? Should Larry Bird be making Jordans money?
Fuck
>no! Jordan is a billion times better than Bird, so he DESERVES to get
his
>props. Aint nobody bitching about roots. Its all about the skillz....
>
>Sparty
>
>
>> Nowadays the music has gone so far from the roots, that it has
escaped us.
>> little richard, bb king should be making oasis's money, madonna's
money
>> all them, but at the time, and still to some extent now we can't
capitalize
>> on our own creation. And when someone else can capitalize on your
>> creation and make it seem like it was there's to begin with and
start
>> and you look at yourself and realized someone stole, or sold your
soul.
>>
that some of y'all obviously took it the wrong way, I was trying to say
that if he is good, then what the hell?? Now before I REALLY get deep
in to this, I'll have to hear his album, I haven't heard it yet, which
is probably why my post was taken the wrong way, and from what y'all
have said about it, I highly doubt I'll like it. But, the commercial
audience (Who is most likely the only audience that will but it)
doesn't give a damn if an artist bites, so I'm sure he has a chance of
blowin up with them. And even if I can't respect his music, I will
respect him for trying something that so many have failed at. I
apologize if you took my last post the wrong way, it's my fault.
Steve Jackson
Insufficient Data (bob...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <Pine.OSF.3.91.960603...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
: ***Marbles*** <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
: >
: > Does that make sense to ya'll? When I heard that Bud Bundy was
: >into hip-hop, I laughed.
: Y'all fools are so selfish, and act like hip-hop is yours and yours
: only!! I mean, y'all act like only black males who were BORN into
: hip-hop are the only people that "have the right" to listen to it.
Well, we know that's not true.
: There are many minority artists that have broken into the rock scene
: with no problems at all--Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz, Living Colour,
: Body Count(which I suppose to you makes Ice-T a "sell-out" because he
: can do one more kind of music besides hip-hop), and that guy from
: hootie and the blowfish to name a few. And if the rock industry did
: bitch about it, everyone would jump on their backs and call them
: anti-semetic, right? Well what the hell is the difference? Stop acting
: like hip-hop is yours and yours only, if the man (Brian Green) wants to
: have a hip-hop album, at least he is trying to make a difference, and
: that is more than you can say about most commercial rappers with the
: same-ass styles that are getting played out.
I think the problem with Brian Green has nothing to do with the fact that
he's white. hell, we've got some phat white artists (3rd Bass, arguably
House of Pain, along with others). The main problem is that he seems
like he's on the hip-hop bandwagon and he's not representin' the real.
He's not totally Vanilla Ice, but he ain't 3rd Bass either. Besides, to
be quite honest, how many actors out there have successfully made the
transition between acting and representing hip-hop? None that I can
think of. Sure hip-hop stars have gone into acting, but it doesn't seem
to work both ways. There's a difference between listening to music and
truly representing it. Brian green can listen to hip-hop all he wants--
no one would care if he did, but he cannot represent it.
:The main thing I see
: bringing hip-hop down is not the white men in suits that run the record
: labels, or the politicians trying to censor every other word that comes
: out of rappers' mouths, although those are obstacles. It's the battles
: WITHIN the industry, the coast war, this whole "white boys aren't
: allowed to rap" thing,
You're generalizing. No one said "white boys aren't allowed to rap" and
true hip-hop headz know that anyone, anywhere can represent. Again, I go
back to 3rd Bass, and hell, even the Beasties. You didn't get much white
than those two groups. But damned if they weren't hype. We shouldn't
forget hip-hop didn't start as a black culture, but as a street culture
which incoporated Blacks, Latinos, and poor whites.
--
"da One & Only"
Steve S. Jackson
(Writer/Author, Insturmentalist, Philosopher-for-hire)
"When I was a child... We had a quick-sand box in the
backyard...... I was an only child........ eventually....."
Hootie Hoo!!!
http://thunder.ocis.temple.edu/~sjackson
Oliver Wang
From: ol...@igc.apc.org (Oliver Wang)
Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
Hold up!
>/* Written 7:25 AM Jun 6, 1996 by 9542...@hector.unil.ch in
>igc:rec.music.hip- */
>Come on Come on now...
>We are talking about music here. Music is entertainment for the human
>mind. You can not start claiming a genre of music to be rightfully yours.
>Everybody is free to the whatever the fuck they want.
You're f---in wrong. Music is C U L T U R E. If you disagree, I challenge
you to show me one music that didn't emerge from the culture of a
particular group. I don't give a f--- if it's zydeco, rockabilly, punk,
house, hip hop, rock, jazz, whatever. Music doesn't spontaenously just
create itself from nothingness. It's not simply entertainment for the
human mind, though it may fill that role. People who see music as simply
that will never be able to appreciate the true worth of music.
>And whoever is best at it will be making the most money and be getting the
>most props.
> People who buy music are not stupid. They buy what they like to hear.
Yeah...right. Look, I sense a defensive tone eminating from your post and
usually when people get defensive, their judgement gets clouded. I mean,
do you really believe what you write here? If so, prove to me that quality
equates to sales. I'll use your example of sports...who gets paid more?
Michael Jordan or Shaq? Who's better? The music industry is filled with
lots of examples of wackness being rewarded and dopeness being ignored.
Man, jazz heads alone would kick your ass (figuratively speaking of course)
alone for that statement.
I think a lot of people who buy music are easily influenced. That doesn't
make them stupid, but it does mean that "what they like to hear" is often
times influenced by what the industry wants them to like. If people were
as "smart" as you make them out to be, the advertising industry wouldn't be
the multi-billion dollar industry it is.
>You could say the same about sports. Sports, just like music is
>entertainment. Basketball's roots? Some white guy invented it in the late
>19 century. Baseball? A white guy. Football? A white guy. Athletics? The
>ancient Greeks: white guys. YET, these sports are now dominated by
>blacks. Why? Because they're damn good at it. So, have these sports
>strayed from their roots? Should Larry Bird be making Jordans money? Fuck
>no! Jordan is a billion times better than Bird, so he DESERVES to get his
>props. Aint nobody bitching about roots. Its all about the skillz....
First of all, I doubt everyone here would agree that Jordan is a BILLION
times better than Bird. And again, who seem to be totally ignorant of the
fact that Jordan is probably the lowest paid NBA superstar. Another point
is that one story that came up during the NCAA final four was that Southern
Miss. (?) wasn't officially allowed to play in their previous visit in the
NCAA tournie back in the 60s b/c they were allowed to play against teams
with black players. Most definitely, people have bitched about roots in
the past. Skill had nothing to do with it.
More ignorance: um...I'd like to see how you can prove the Greeks invented
athletics. What the f---, other people never ran track before the Greeks
came along? Please. Football's roots certainly predate our current
conception of it. Archaelogists have found evidence of early soccer among
the Aztecs. Etc. Moreover though, the previous poster pointed out there's
not the same type of claim to "ownership" with sports as is there is to
music. Your example is non-analagous and poor because of that.
Once again, people are getting too sensitive to the mention of race...this
conversation has never really hinged on the argument that Brain
Green=white=wack. Certainly Jazzbo never said that...I haven't either and
I haven't noticed anyone really claiming that Green is bad simply b/c he's
white. I think we just have some very overly sensitive and defensive folks
out there who are trying to read too much into this Green critique and are
sticking their ignorant feet in their mouth.
Peace,
O
Rick Redus
In article <4p48vr$c...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu
(kari orr) wrote:
>try to find a brother man listening to jazz or
> rock and roll. the mainstream of both of those musics no longer have
> that soul element.
Kari's post was passionate, lucid and insightful. Keep it coming
Kari. I just want to take exception to the one small point quoted above.
For rock-and-roll of course it's quite true, but I'm going to maintain
that the heart of jazz is still black. The appeal of jazz is broad, and
more whites buy and listen to it than blacks because there are more whites
than blacks in the population. But if you made a list of the top ten jazz
standard bearers for any given year from 1920 to the present, based on
influence, sales, fame, artistic integrity, or any other measure you'd
like, blacks would dominate by a huge proportion. These black icons of
jazz arise from the vast and diverse black jazz audience.
Again, this is not to disagree with the main point of Kari's post.
It's just that I feel that jazz is really something to be proud of,
inspired by, and I don't want to see its importance missed.
--
RR
Jazzbo/Joseph Patel
word up
***Marbles***
First off, I want to say that this post should be required
reading to anyone who wants to be involved in this newsgroup. I don't
think that we're trying to exclude anyone, but we don't want people who
are in it for reasons other than love for it. Very well said, Ollie.
Second, the attributions were screwed up and that wasn't me that
said the stuff that O-DUB was replying to.
Peace,
_______________________________________________________________________________
***Trey*** ***John F. Harris, III*** ***Marbles***
E-MAIL- jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>>> Don't Be Down With Anybody, Let'Em All Be Down With You - HEAVY D. <<<
***Marbles***
Yeah, let's end that argument before it gets started. I've been
following this thread for a while and I've read a lot of different
opinions from a lot of people. I don't remember anyone (who said
anything worth reading) ever saying that Brian Green's color had anything
to do with their uneasiness about the situation.
Speaking for myself, I'm not uncomfortable with his color. It's his
dedication to the music that I don't know about. I really can't say
either, because I don't know anything about him. But let's say that he
puts his album out and it completely flops. No sales at all. Will he
give up on hip-hop and stop trying to MC? If so, then he's not
committed. If the album flops and he still does his thing (especially
with no chance at another commercial venture) then that's another story.
I haven't heard the song, but if I like it then I'll have to say so.
I don't care if people think I'm soft or whatever. I don't care if he's
white or not. But then if his stuff is wack and I call it so, does that
mean I'm racist? Not at all.
So let's try to keep this thread away from the race issue and solely
on the "Is this kid for real?" topic. Does that sound alright to everyone?
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
***Marbles***
OK, I admit that I didn't keep up with Jordan's baseball career
(I'm no Jordan fan, Magic's my man) so I'm not too knowledgeable about
the whole thing. I'm wondering if any cat off the stree could get a
try-out for the team as easily as Jordan did. Don't you usually have to
be invited after the scouts watch you?
Anyways, that's another topic. I'm not going to say that the
Pharcyde sold out by helping Green come up. I haven't heard the kid, so
I don't know if he's wack or not. Obviously, the Pharcyde thought it was
worth the effort. I'll just have to see if I agree or not. Maybe they
saw it as a power move. If Green blows up, his fans may look for the
Pharcyde. I can't say.
Do the Pharcyde sellout when they go on to MTV's Beack Jams? Not
at all. As long as they perform the same way they would anywhere else.
There's nothing wrong with exposure, as long as you portray the same
image that you've always had.
A sell-out isn't someone successful. A sell-out is someone who
changes themselves to get something or somewhere. Yes, this definition
is very general, but I think that ya'll understand what I mean.
Hammer has gone thru how many different styles? The hip-hop dance
king, the commercial sounds, the holy MC and then the hardcore thing.
It's not bad to ADAPT or ADJUST your style, but an unnecessary change is
what I call a sell-out. LL Cool J is doing the same stuff he did on
"Radio". despite recent cries from "hip-hop heads", he's no sellout.
The Fugees are lucky enough to have a billboard smash, but they adjusted
their style a little from the first album. No sellout there.
Peace,
_______________________________________________________________________________
***Trey*** ***John F. Harris, III*** ***Marbles***
E-MAIL- jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>>> Don't Be Down With Anybody, Let'Em All Be Down With You - HEAVY D. <<<
On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Andrew Ryan Chang wrote:
> > However, if this kid (what's his name? something Green?) bought
> >his way into the industry, I can't respect him (as a hip-hop artists).
> >Like Joradn playing for the White Sox. MJ gets no props from me for not
> >paying his dues to play. I'm certain that there are hundreds of young
> >kids fighting & scrapping for their chance to make it. Jordan made it on
> >his name alone.
>
> Did he? He worked hard, and he made real improvements when the
> other players would blow off the coach. He never played for the White
> Sox because he wasn't that good. He stayed with a minor league team for
> most of a season, despite the lack of glamor- I think MJ was definitely
> paying his baseball dues, no matter that he probably could never have
> made it to the big leagues.
>
> As for hip-hop, well, yeah, being down for hip-hop isn't like
> just buying a producer and vocal training. I read that 90210 has had a
> fair amount of hip-hop on the show (Slim Kid Tre, and I can't remember
> who else) ... what is selling out?
>
> The Pharcyde are down, right? Is it selling out for them to
> appear on one of MTV's interminably lame beach shows? I don't know.
>
Martin Karlsson
When I first saw the Green video, I reacted on him copying the Pharcyde styles
and his lack of flow. Though, I thought, he wasnt completely wack.
When I saw it the second time, I listened more carefully and more and more
noticed his bad flow. He just doesnt come natural. Theres a miles-width
difference between him and the people he tries to copy, his freinds and
producers, the Pharcyde. If he wasnt famous and didnt know the Pharcyde, he
would never be given the chance to put out a record. (Hm, I take that back,
look at Vanilla Ice..).
And for him being "real" in hip-hop, I saw an interviewwith him on danish TV,
where he said that he would one day like to produceJamie Walters !!
You know, the guy who represents the worst in sleazy american AOR rock and
Greens 90210 co-starr. Now, that if anything must prove to the world, that like
KRS, Brian Austin Green IS hip-hop.
Tyler Blohm
or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu (kari orr) wrote:
>(snip)
I hear what you're sayin, but rap turning into "white music?" I
dunno...for some reason, I don't see it happening...
*********************************************
* Tyler Blohm - bl...@primenet.com *
* http://www.primenet.com/~blohm/index.htm *
* For Wu-Tang lyrics check out: *
*http://www.primenet.com/~blohm/wulyrics.htm*
* Coming Soon: Rap Lyrics!...on da Net *
*http://www.primenet.com/~blohm/raplyric.htm*
*********************************************
Andrew Ryan Chang
Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>I've said this before and I'll say it again...if hip hop goes more DIY
>(thanks Mercer) and indie, profits may decline, but the overall quality
>will go up and I think you'll see a lot of the bullsh*t start to die out
>b/c there'd be no money in it.
Out of curiousity, why? Sometimes it seems to me like some
people really do prefer semi-wackness to originality. I know a lot of
people I know have heard of Snoop; I know they've never ever heard of
ATCQ. What's more, if I sat them down and played (for example) Aceyalone
or the Pharcyde, they would probably *still* prefer rappers who bite
rather than come up with anything new.
Yeah, good stuff will sell, but sometimes I think mediocre stuff
sells better _because_ it's mediocre. If there's no money at all in it,
well, hip-hop may improve, but the smaller overall hiphop community will
lose a lot. It would lose radio play of any kind (co-op, university
shows are at least a little based on audience size, no?) and possibly,
talented folk would never even hear the music, never get into hiphop.
I'm just not convinced overall that getting money out of hip-hop
would make it a better situation.
--
> What is this trolled thing. [answered by <Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk>]
what happens is that someone acts like an arsehole, gets treated like an
arsehole and then says ha ha I was only pretending to be an arsehole.
which is pretty much defines them as an arsehole in the firstplace.
Martin Karlsson
Poncho
Martin Karlsson <martink> wrote:
>When I first saw the Green video, I reacted on him copying the Pharcyde styles
>and his lack of flow. Though, I thought, he wasnt completely wack.
>world, that like KRS, Brian Austin Green IS hip-hop.
>
even mention KRS-1 in the same sentence as fakeass Brian Green. Brian
Green IS hip hop?????? How long have you been listening to hip-hop? Like 2
days? Damn, you're a straight-up fool! You should be confined to an asylum
for that statement. Put your sorry-ass in a straightjacket and shit. I
really don't give a fuck if you like pretty boy Green, but don't go
comparing him to one of the Masters of the genre. Rehab.....
Poncho
Oliver Wang
I'm not very familiar with the intracracies of indie rock, but I think
indie rock tends NOT to be about money. Certainly, the artists get
paid, but the fact that they're INDIE suggets that they're not trying
to land a beer contract and go on tour with Green Day.
If there's less money in hip hop than a lot of labels will get OUT of
hip hop, meaning the ones who stay will be the ones who are more
committed to going with hip hop. Fake artists won't be as attracted to
hip hop b/c they don't see it as lucritive, therefore, the artists that
stay do it out of love for the music (yes, I'm over idealizing, but
stay with me).
Before hip hop was on MTV and in every music store in the country, I
think the quality was probably pretty damn good, especially looking at
how much wackness is out there now.
I do think less money means that hip hop may not end up in every
market, but on the flip side, it's not as if Sam Goody carries J Live
on 12" now anyway. Community and college shows will still have their
following b/c these shows don't program wack sh*t, only heads listen to
'em.
I've never seen, in a free market system, how quality increases in
proportion to how much money is infused into it. Obviously, there's a
correlation, but sometimes, less is more. Paying basketball players
hasn't improved the game. MIcrosoft owns the software market but most
folks in the know also say their product isn't as good as others.
Punk died when it became co-opted commerically...hip hop passed that
point a long time ago and more and more artists are seeing that major
labels either mean creative or financial suicide.
I totally disagree that less money in hip hop will shrink the core
audience. Furthermore, how does some talented would-be rapper,
listening to some bullsh*t that's popular, get inspired by that?
People seek out places to express their talent, not vice versa. I
hardly think hip hop would suffer extensively if there wasn't as much
money in it.
Peace,
O
perry fect
Oliver Wang (ol...@igc.apc.org) wrote:
:*>I'm not very familiar with the intracracies of indie rock, but I think
:*>indie rock tends NOT to be about money. Certainly, the artists get
:*>paid, but the fact that they're INDIE suggets that they're not trying
:*>to land a beer contract and go on tour with Green Day.
:*>If there's less money in hip hop than a lot of labels will get OUT of
:*>hip hop, meaning the ones who stay will be the ones who are more
:*>committed to going with hip hop. Fake artists won't be as attracted to
:*>hip hop b/c they don't see it as lucritive, therefore, the artists that
:*>stay do it out of love for the music (yes, I'm over idealizing, but
:*>stay with me).
:*>Before hip hop was on MTV and in every music store in the country, I
:*>think the quality was probably pretty damn good, especially looking at
:*>how much wackness is out there now.
:*>I do think less money means that hip hop may not end up in every
:*>market, but on the flip side, it's not as if Sam Goody carries J Live
:*>on 12" now anyway. Community and college shows will still have their
:*>following b/c these shows don't program wack sh*t, only heads listen to
:*>'em.
:*>I've never seen, in a free market system, how quality increases in
:*>proportion to how much money is infused into it. Obviously, there's a
:*>correlation, but sometimes, less is more. Paying basketball players
:*>hasn't improved the game. MIcrosoft owns the software market but most
:*>folks in the know also say their product isn't as good as others.
:*>Punk died when it became co-opted commerically...hip hop passed that
:*>point a long time ago and more and more artists are seeing that major
:*>labels either mean creative or financial suicide.
:*>I totally disagree that less money in hip hop will shrink the core
:*>audience. Furthermore, how does some talented would-be rapper,
:*>listening to some bullsh*t that's popular, get inspired by that?
:*>People seek out places to express their talent, not vice versa. I
:*>hardly think hip hop would suffer extensively if there wasn't as much
:*>money in it.
very nice. i agree with the less money theory. i do think it will shrink
the core audience but you'll get a more loyal audience out of it. prince
has no problem doing his own thing and he's been writing music that sits
out of the mainstream for years. maybe with less money it would weed out
all the lazy ass rappers who just jump on the latest dre trend and fucking
mediocre ass motherfuckers like snoop dickey dick wouldn't be ruining it
for the real talented rappers out there. hip-hop should break all ties to
major corporations and go back underground when it was the dopest. back
when i had to wait until 11:00 on friday and saturday to hear rap on the
radio cuz no one else would play it. i was buying records left and right
back then. the best rappers weren't going hungry and they won't when rap
comes back. don't let them ruin rap like they ruined jazz. and i ain't
talking white people, i'm talking the money grubbers.
--
d88b d88b 8888b 88888 ,88. | perry fect | and i will strike
88 88 88 88 88 88,, MMMM | natural born killer | down upon thee with
88 88 88 8888P 88"" "" | perf...@callnet.com | great vengence and
Y88Y Y88Y 88 88 88888 MM | CORE! MCMXCVI | furious anger
http://www.nai.net/~perfecto
Dawn B. Mabalon
I think you've both pointed out a big debate that we in the hip hop
community should be grappling with. The major labels are soon to get
tired of hip hop because it's no longer all that profitable for them,
now that gangsta shit is not selling and they can't seem to move more
than a coupla hundred thousand units of the dope shit that's out there.
Which will leave hip hop in a predicament, if we don't prepare now by
going back underground, protecting the voice and integrity of the form
and doing it ourselves through our own labels, networks, etc. Not that
this hasn't always been done.
But then again, you've pointed out that without hip hop being commercial
in some sense, we'll lose radio airplay, MTV coverage, etc., and a lot
of potential heads will never get turned on to hip hop.
Any ideas out there about keeping it DIY and underground while
maintaining the form's ability to reach everyone from the head with
access in L.A. to the potential head in Montana?
I've sure got no answers...but I know for sure that if we keep looking
towards the major labels and the mainstream buyer for our sustenance, we
will very quickly die. The major labels don't care about art. They are
all owned by the multinational corporations who only care about money.
As soon as hip hop no longer makes $$ for them, they're going to drop us
like you don't know.
Dawn
Flipgirl
"if you're mysogynist you can't get with this" -- L boogie
Douglas Smith
In article <APC&1'0'9950aa61'a...@igc.apc.org> Oliver Wang wrote:
>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:40:06 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org>
>Newsgroups: rec.music.hip-hop
>Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
>
>Dawn,
>
>I feel your argument, but is it really necessary for hip hop to have as
>large of an audience as possible? Monetarily, sure, that makes sense,
>but I also think that the relationship between popular music
>(literally, popular with a lot of people) and quality tends to be that
>more creative music takes chances and those chances often alienate
>listeners who aren't courageous enough to feel it.
>
>Am I saying that a lot of people are fickle with their tastes? Or that
>they can't recongize a good thing when they hear it? Yes, I am. Like
>I brought up before, if people were such discriminating folks, the
>advertising industry wouldn't be so successful selling people sh*t they
>don't need or convincing them that something is a "must have" or a
>"must see". Movies are a great example...no one I know has liked
>"Mission: Impossible"...I think most of the critics trashed it...and
>look at how it's selling? Outpacing Jurassic Park to set the new
>industry record. Why? B/c the marketing blitz convinced enough people
>to see it at least once regardless of what popular opinion or critical
>comment was.
>
>Personally, if the cost of hip hop's independence is that it doesn't
>permeate every corner of society, I can deal with that. That might
>make a lot of heads in obscure places mad to hear, but look...if you're
>a head already, you're going to find ways to satisfy your fix. In this
>day and age, nothing is really unattainable, unlike in rock n' roll's
>early days on radio. The question of "potential heads" isn't worth, to
>me, the watering down of hip hop quality. With a solid core audience,
>even a smaller one, you insure longevity.
>
>Basically, it's the quality, not the quantity that concerns me. I
>don't think hip hop is going to be very good so long as commercialism
>rules its creative process, no matter how many fans it attracts. Like
>I said before, name me one art that has flourished from popular cooption.
>
>Peace,
>
>O
I couldn't agree with you more. Personally, I wouldn't mind returning to the
days where I would have to stay up until 2 a.m. on a Sunday morning just to
hear Mr. Magic on WHBI play rap music. Those were the dayz...
THE DEAD END ZONE WITH DOUG AND TONY
HOUSE MUSIC ALL NIGHT LONG!!!
Dawn B. Mabalon
Uhhh. I think our friend Martin Karlsson was being SARCASTIC. Don't jump
on him so easily. He was comparing this wack wannabe to one of hip hop's
great godfathers to show how Green is NOT hip hop. Read betwee the
lines.
Oliver Wang
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
Chillout Poncho, he making use of sarchasm.
You know, dry wit?
He wrote a whole paragraph on why Green doing hip-hop does not work.
Damn don't take it so serious.
Kwesi Ako Kennedy
--
kake...@unity.ncsu.edu
p.s. remember afer all, KRS did do that song with REM. no joke.
Joshua Adam Johnson
Anyone who has a problem with white people listening to rap needs to
listen to what your people are always saying. Your people are the ones
always saying stop racism, so why should you have a problem with whites
listening to rap, that is just as racist, because I love rap and I
can't get with no headbangin shit.
Douglas Smith
>Anyone who has a problem with white people listening to rap needs to
>listen to what your people are always saying. Your people are the ones
>always saying stop racism, so why should you have a problem with whites
>listening to rap, that is just as racist, because I love rap and I
>can't get with no headbangin shit.
I don't think that headz necessarily have a problem with white people
listening to rap music. I think what people are saying is that the continued
commercialization of rap and hip-hop could ultimately lead to its downfall.
Rap music has become more commercial simply because it now appeals to kids in
the mainstream of American society (i.e. it appeals to whites), whereas
before it was strictly the domain of black and hispanic kids. Unfortunately,
history indicates that, in many cases, as music which is traditionally
associated with black people (rock-n-roll, jazz, blues) becomes more and more
commercial, it gets co-opted by the "mainstream", loses it roots, and becomes
something it wasn't intended to be. History also show us that there is a
tendency on the part of the mainstream to downplay the involvement of the
people who created the music so they can lay claim to it as their own.
I believe people who are genuinely into hip-hop want to avoid this at all
costs. It almost happened six years ago with advent of Vanilla Ice and a
proliferation of white rappers whose sole reason for being signed was so that
record companies could put a white face on rap and make it more palatable to
middle-of-the-road America. This is not to say that white people shouldn't
listen to rap or that there aren't any good white rappers. What it means is that
the hip-hop community is not willing to let people who aren't genuinely down
for hip-hop, i.e. those in the mainstream (white, black or otherwise),
dictate the direction that it takes. Headz would rather see the shit go back
underground than have it turn into some bastard child of its former self. This is
not racist, just hip-hop's form of "self-preservation".
Doug
"Never in a scandal and I'm never caught schemin'
Knew Pu was dope ever since I was semen
Swimmin' in my daddy's big nuts
But now I'm scoopin' girls with the big ole butts"
- Grand Puba, "Step To The Rear"
Oliver Wang
From: Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
Now it's ignorant replies like this one below that make me mad. This
replier quoted both me and a replier to me and seems to insinuate that
one of us said something about white people, when in truth, I didn't
mention race ONCE and my replier only mentioned "white people" once,
mostly to point out that they're NOT the reason why hip hop is going
down the tubes.
So this leads me to ask just what post <perfecto> was reading?
What I find annoying is that people are so willing to be reactive that
they STOP thinking and stop digesting what it is they listen to or
see.
And DON'T tell me that something is "just as racist". You don't
understand anything about racism if you think it has to do with someone
complaining about white people listening to hip hop.
Out,
O
/* Written 8:17 PM Jun 12, 1996 by dpg...@ix.netcom.com in igc:rec.music.hip- */
In <4pl0ar$8...@a3bsrv.nai.net> perf...@nai.net (perry fect) writes:
Dawn B. Mabalon
you write:
Personally, if the cost of hip hop's independence is that it doesn't
permeate every corner of society, I can deal with that. That might
make a lot of heads in obscure places mad to hear, but look...if you're
a head already, you're going to find ways to satisfy your fix. In this
day and age, nothing is really unattainable, unlike in rock n' roll's
early days on radio. The question of "potential heads" isn't worth, to
me, the watering down of hip hop quality. With a solid core audience,
even a smaller one, you insure longevity.
Basically, it's the quality, not the quantity that concerns me. I
don't think hip hop is going to be very good so long as commercialism
rules its creative process, no matter how many fans it attracts. Like
I said before, name me one art that has flourished from popular cooption.
Peace,
O
Oliver,
You and I are on the same tip...it's the particulars that we are talking about.
So let's talk.
I agree that capitalism and commercialism have ruined a great many things which
once had the power to inspire, to incite oppositional thought, etc. and etc. And
I feel that the surveillance of global media and the multinational corporations'
overwhelming cocern with their balance sheet has in myriad ways co-opted and
diseased hip hop.
But I am not saying that we should let hip hop continue as a weak version of its
once powerful self through the co-optation of the major labels. What I am asking
you and the rest of the hip hop nation is this: Since a return to the roots, to
the underground, to the DIY seems not only beneficial but almost necessary at
this point, how do we make sure that hip hop still reaches as many people as
possible?
I feel that hip hop has incredible power to educate, to liberate, to lead out of
ignorance, to mobilize, to politicize...these are only a few reasons why this
movement is so revolutionary and so abhorrent to the center. I'm not in any way
saying that we need to keep it commercial, with $$$ flowing into it from Global
Capital...but how shall we strategize to make sure that it reaches the ears of
as many youth as possible...and that WE control this flowing outward.
Let me ask you -- how did you get into hip hop...REALLY NOW?
Just wondering,
Dawn
Andrew Ryan Chang
Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>I've never seen, in a free market system, how quality increases in
I know that more money doesn't mean more quality. But I think
that public visibility is a good thing. To pick a weak analogy, look at
badminton. People who know about the sport outside of BBQ-backyard
playing know it's a fast, demanding, great sport. It's huge in Asia.
Why is it not huge in the States? There are dedicated players/fans of
badminton, but public visibility is almost zero. It's so much harder to
bring new people to the sport compared to, say, basketball or football.
A lot of people who might end up loving badminton never ever know about
it at all, thanks to lack of exposure.
Many programmers program for love, yes, but at the same time,
they also push for mainstream acceptance (Amiga and Linux folk are
especially vocal about this) I think they just say "We've got a good
thing, and we want other people to have it. Other people who might never
hear about it otherwise but probably would benefit from it."
>Punk died when it became co-opted commerically...hip hop passed that
>point a long time ago and more and more artists are seeing that major
>labels either mean creative or financial suicide.
Does it? I don't think major label distribution has to mean
compromise- it just means that there's a lot of pressure to do it their
way.
>I totally disagree that less money in hip hop will shrink the core
>audience. Furthermore, how does some talented would-be rapper,
>listening to some bullsh*t that's popular, get inspired by that?
Less money in hip-hop means it's harder to get the records. The
core audience will still find it. But will that audience grow enough to
remain the same size? (ie people die, lose interest- they have to be
replaced or the population goes down).
No, a talented would-be would not be inspired by popular,
chart-topping fluff, but I'm not 100% convinced that "popular" has to
mean "bad". I know when I was young and stupid (well, more so) I liked
Hammer somewhat and other lame stuff. But what would I have grown up to
like without the early exposure? Maybe I'd never have gotten into
hip-hop. I dunno.. it's not like most of my friends have heard of
Aceyalone or even Tribe, but when media exposure to the fluff can bring a
bit of the spotlight over to (say) Freestyle Fellowship or the Roots, I
think that's good.
>People seek out places to express their talent, not vice versa. I
>hardly think hip hop would suffer extensively if there wasn't as much
>money in it.
I would hope so. I guess I just think not all money is bad
money. (if it's my money, it ain't bad.)
Andrew Ryan Chang
Joshua Adam Johnson <dpg...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <4pl0ar$8...@a3bsrv.nai.net> perf...@nai.net (perry fect) writes:
>>comes back. don't let them ruin rap like they ruined jazz. and i ain't
>>talking white people, i'm talking the money grubbers.
>Anyone who has a problem with white people listening to rap needs to
>listen to what your people are always saying. Your people are the ones
>always saying stop racism, so why should you have a problem with whites
>listening to rap, that is just as racist, because I love rap and I
>can't get with no headbangin shit.
How did you get from "I ain't talking white people" to "I have a
problem with white people listening to rap"?
Insufficient Data
In <4pp9pu$a...@news-e2c.gnn.com> dsmit...@gnn.com (Douglas Smith)
writes:
>>Anyone who has a problem with white people listening to rap needs to
>>listen to what your people are always saying. Your people are the
ones
>>always saying stop racism, so why should you have a problem with
whites
>>listening to rap, that is just as racist, because I love rap and I
>>can't get with no headbangin shit.
>
What is the huge problem?? Who cares if certain hip-hop crews want to
bite, wouldn't you if it made you millions of dollars?? Hip-hop has
turned into a festival of biting, but only when brian-austin green does
it you start getting offensive. Let the people listen to what they
want, jesus, aren't my fellow heads big kids?? You don't HAVE to watch
MTV...You don't HAVE to go out and buy an album just because it is in
the top 10 on the Billboard charts. If the underground heads want to
stay underground, I don't see what is stopping them. Of course,
without the big companies signing hip-hop artists left and right, maybe
hip-hop would be a little more real, but nobody would care. How many
rappers do you think would do what they do if they didn't get paid for
it?? damn near none, and if they did, hardly anyone would hear it,
since the underground companies would have no money to put their shit
out. I mean the majority of rappers nowadays talk about "hustlin',
slangin', murderin', etc." to make the money they want. If you don't
have hip-hop to keep people attracted to it, instead of murdering
people, the world as a whole would be a more dangerous place to live
in, especially in the ghettos these rappers are from. But thw main
thing I wanted to say is that if you don't agree with hip-hop's
commercialism, don't support the commercial artist's album, don't watch
the commercial hip-hop shows, and stick to buying the underground shit
you like, and let everyone else do their own thing
Oliver Wang
From the EUR:
BRIAN GREEN
Brian Green first started out as the nerdy David Silver
trying to fit in at West Beverly High on the popular Fox drama
"Beverly Hills 90210." Now his character is one of the hippest
dudes on the show as a college student who does double duty as a
video producer, DJ and even a rap artist -- and rapping's what
he's doing on his debut Yab Yum Records CD "One Stop Carnival."
Green, who's dropped his middle name Austin, says he's not
frontin' and that his debut is definitely on the real.
"Hip hop is all I've ever listened to and what I've ever
really been into music wise," Green admits. "I was never into
rock or alternative music."
Green, who's also a professional drummer, hung out regularly
in recording studios making demos for himself and other artists
like his now labelmate Jon B. Eventually Green's demos started
making the record label rounds and Yab Yum (owned by Babyface's
wife Tracey Edmonds) offered him a deal. The label had no problem
with Green co-producing most of the tracks on his debut. In fact,
Green produced his first single, "You Send Me..." along with two of
his closest friends -- hip hop heads L-A Jay and the Pharcyde's
Slim Kid-3.
Oliver Wang
From: Oliver Wang <ol...@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
> /* Written 4:23 PM Jun 15, 1996 by bob...@ix.netcom.com in
igc:rec.music.hip- */
> stay underground, I don't see what is stopping them. Of course,
> without the big companies signing hip-hop artists left and right, maybe
> hip-hop would be a little more real, but nobody would care. How many
> rappers do you think would do what they do if they didn't get paid for
> it?? damn near none, and if they did, hardly anyone would hear it,
> since the underground companies would have no money to put their shit
> out.
Uh...if that's the case, how do any musicians, who are not signed to the
majors, put out their material? Sorry, but you're off point...the way
that music is produced and distributed is a fairly complex system, but it
is NOT dependent, necessarily on having Sony or Polygram to distribute.
Even so, major labels can still handle distribution on their end of the
bargain while everything else is left up to the artist to take care of.
In the current industry though, labels often control every aspect of the
process, including owning the rights to the writing which is VERY
important financially speaking. Indie labels aren't selling double
plat., but look at a single like J-Live's "Longevity"...almost 50,000 on
the strength of just a wax 12", no CD, no cassette...that's really pretty
phenomenal by any standards. Out here, kids like the Hobo Junction and
Mystik Journeymen are taking it back to the street level by selling on
street corners and out of car trunks. They're where the audience is and
manage to keep their product circulating.
> slangin', murderin', etc." to make the money they want. If you don't
> have hip-hop to keep people attracted to it, instead of murdering
> people, the world as a whole would be a more dangerous place to live
> in, especially in the ghettos these rappers are from.
What the f-? Look, I think hip hop's all that but I don't see it as
social policy to reduce the number of homicides in low income areas.
Maybe you're from the ghetto, 'cause I'm not, but it never occured to me
that having Mobb Deep rapping about bodies and burners did much to
DECREASE violence. I'm with De La Soul on this one..."these brothers no
longer talk sh*t, these brothers live it". So violence in music and
movies and television is a GOOD thing? Oh...I must have missed that one...
>But the main thing I wanted to say is that if you don't agree with hip-hop's
> commercialism, don't support the commercial artist's album, don't watch
> the commercial hip-hop shows, and stick to buying the underground shit
> you like, and let everyone else do their own thing
Here's a point I can agree on (to a certain extent). Consumers need to
realize that their power is in the dollar and considering that hip hop
sales tend to be measured in the tens of thousands of units, vs.
hundreds of thousands, artists need to maintain a strong core audience,
not only as buyers of the product, but also people who come out to shows
(where most of their income is made anyway) and what not. Believe me,
rappers would change with trends in the industry, at least they have
shown this tendency for a while.
Peace,
O
Douglas Smith
> What is the huge problem?? Who cares if certain hip-hop crews want to
>bite, wouldn't you if it made you millions of dollars?? Hip-hop has
>turned into a festival of biting, but only when brian-austin green does
>it you start getting offensive.
What does biting have do with a discussion of Brian Austin Green? You
obviously did not read my post carefully, because if you did you would
understand the issue being addressed.
Anytime a white person decides to release a rap album, questions are going to
arise as to whether or not it is a record company gimmick. This is primarily
because rap is a genre of music created and generally performed by blacks and
latinos, and because it is rooted in the black and latino youth experience in
inner city America. This is not to say that people of different racial and
ethnic backgrounds cannot participate in or be a legitimate part of hip-hop
culture. What it means is that headz will always have a healthy skepticism
of artists who are paraded in front of America as being part of hip-hop and
who appear to have no roots in hip-hop. White people have not traditionally
been associated with hip-hop, which means Brian Austin Green's entrance into
the rap game looks suspicious on the surface.
So why is it such a huge problem? As I mentioned in my last post, record
companies have a history of putting a white face on black music in order to
make it more palatable to middle America. Unfortunately when the music is
co-opted in this fashion, it tends to stray so far from its roots that it can
no longer be associated with its origins. It is at this point that people
who did not originate the art form begin to proclaim the music as their own
and as something they originated. Hip-hop headz will not allow this to
happen to hip-hop.
Is presence of Brian Austin Green in the rap game an insidious attempt by a
record company to co-opt hip-hop for mainstream America? I don't know. In
his interviews he seems to be sincere about doing "real" hip-hop. Time will
tell though. If he has skills and keeps it relevant for hip-hop headz, he
may gain some acceptance in hip-hop.
Let the people listen to what they
>want, jesus, aren't my fellow heads big kids?? You don't HAVE to watch
>MTV...You don't HAVE to go out and buy an album just because it is in
>the top 10 on the Billboard charts. If the underground heads want to
>stay underground, I don't see what is stopping them. Of course,
>without the big companies signing hip-hop artists left and right, maybe
>hip-hop would be a little more real, but nobody would care...
Who is "nobody"? If "nobody" is mainstream America, so what? Headz don't
give a fuck what mainstream America thinks of hip-hop.
How many
>rappers do you think would do what they do if they didn't get paid for
>it?? damn near none, and if they did, hardly anyone would hear it,
>since the underground companies would have no money to put their shit
>out.
So what? I say weed out all the ones who are not doing it for the love it
first, and for money second. Hip-hop did not start because people thought
they could get paid off of it. Besides, rappers WILL get paid. They don't
need to be associated with a major in order to get money or get their music
heard.
I mean the majority of rappers nowadays talk about "hustlin',
>slangin', murderin', etc." to make the money they want. If you don't
>have hip-hop to keep people attracted to it, instead of murdering
>people, the world as a whole would be a more dangerous place to live
>in, especially in the ghettos these rappers are from.
Are you suggesting that the rappers would become a bunch of murderous thugs
if they couldn't rap? What a bunch of racist bullshit!
But thw main
>thing I wanted to say is that if you don't agree with hip-hop's
>commercialism, don't support the commercial artist's album, don't watch
>the commercial hip-hop shows, and stick to buying the underground shit
>you like, and let everyone else do their own thing
Most headz do exactly what you say they should do. For the most part, they
stay away from the commercial shit and support hip-hop artists who may not
enjoy the commercial success of Coolio or the Fugees. But that's beside that
point. When you're talking about an art form such as rap it is important to
have remain true to its roots. If Brian Austin Green can keep it true to its
roots, fine. If not, we need to reject him just like the rest (Vanilla Ice,
Icy Blu, Shaka, Phil Knight's (the chairman of Nike) son, etc...).
Ryan A. MacMichael
> roots, fine. If not, we need to reject him just like the rest (Vanilla Ice,
> Icy Blu, Shaka, Phil Knight's (the chairman of Nike) son, etc...).
Oh damn... Icy Blu! I remember I got that disc to review along with the
unbelievably bubble-gummy promo material. That CD was AWFUL (I gave it a
1.1/5 -- the extra .1 for the instrumental at the end). And the funny thing
was that her brother wrote her lyrics for her... kind of funny since lots of
the lyrics focused on getting dressed up and looking nice for the boys. In
any event, I still have the CD as something to show folks, "Look at what
companies like Warner Brothers decide to put out!" Hopefully the A&R that got
her in there was shot.
As far as Brian Green goes... I didn't find his stuff half bad, and he came
off pretty well when I saw him perform on a talk show (I guess being an actor
really helps with stage presence). Of course he comes off sounding like the
missing member of the Pharcyde, but his music is alright.
Of course, the fact you brought up about the music becoming whitewashed is a
big concern. It happened when bastardized blues became country. It happened
when bastardized rock became "alternative". But hopefully that won't happen
with hip-hop and the white folks that do rap will keep the music true to the
roots and not come out fronting... I mean, in jazz, there were a lot of white
musicians that really hurt the music because their bands were strictly white
and that was it. Fortunately, some folks (Benny Goodman comes to mind) were
true to the artform, were innovators, and insisted on having black musicians
as part of their band.
As a white rapper/producer myself, I found it difficult in the beginning to
come at rap in a way that people would want to listen to and still maintain
true to myself and the music (I've been listening to rap since I was in second
grade -- that's 13 years now). And at this point in my career, I am
comfortable with the product that I'm releasing, the folks I produce, and
people's opinions about me and my music. It's tough to overcome the original
skepticism from heads that think a white rapper can't be true to hip-hop, but
I've found that once people get to know me personally and check out my music
interests and whatnot, minds get changed.
Whether Brian Green falls into that category, I don't know -- as you said,
"time will tell." Fortunately, at this point, I definately do NOT see hip-hop
turning into a whitewashed music -- because once it becomes bastardized like
blues and rock did, it will no longer be hip-hop. That's when the folks that
get such a kick out of talking about (c)rap music (showing their true IQ),
will finally be telling the truth.
End of ramble... peace...
Laze
---
Ryan A. MacMichael rmac...@mwc.edu
* hip-hop/reggae journalist, producer, and diehard
* editor/publisher SOFTWARE-WEB REVIEW ONLINE
everything you've always wanted to know:
http://www.mwc.edu/rmacmich/
APage20301
It's interesting that people talk about the roots of hip-hop and how, if
people don't come from those roots, they are immediately suspect. Some
people trace the roots of hip-hop all the way to Jamaica (some back to
Africa), but most people say it started in the South Bronx, USA. (MC Shan
said it started in Queens, but hey...). How many rappers are coming out of
the Bronx now? I can name four national artists from the Bronx still
majorly active in hip-hop as we speak: KRS, Diamond D, Fat Joe, and Sadat
X. That's it. Boogiemonsters is gone. D-Nice? Nowhere to be seen. So, what
do I say all this for? Well, I freestyle and write rhymes, okay? I'm from
New Orleans. New Orleans is nowhere fucking near the South Bronx. Still, I
feel that I am true to the culture abd deserve a shot. If I came out
tomorrow and my rhymes and beats were alright (let's be humble and say I
was average), no one would question my right to rap. However, when Brian
Austin Green comes with an average song, everyone is wondering: is it a
gimmick? is he really down? etc., etc. Sure, he's a TV star. So was
Heather B. Lauryn was in a pretty corny movie called "Sister Act 2". Does
that affect her credibility? I think y'all should listen to the song,
judge him by his skills and that's it.
As for me, personally, I've never heard a white equivalent to Ras Kass.
I've never heard a white equivalent to Nas. This is why I have never
purchased an album by a white artist, not because of their skin color, but
because I have a high standard as far as what I purchase. Beastie Boys had
beats but, I'm sorry, their rhymes never got it for me. I hear they're
coming out with an instrumental album. I can't wait for that. As far as
their other work, I know they make party music and I shouldn't expect
mind-blowing lyricism or groundbreaking flows, but I do. Besides, that
whiny voice thing irritated the fuck outta me. I still dance when "Paul
Revere" comes on though, so in that respect I guess they make good party
music. But I digress.
The point is, judge artists by their art. I think Brian Green isn't dope.
That ends the argument for me. I won't buy his shit because he just isn't
dope to me. Everyone else should make the same decision. If he is found to
be exploiting the culture (like many black artists do as well), or if he's
just plain wack, (ditto) then he should go the way of Vanilla Ice and Tim
Dog.;)
Salaam,
ACP
Douglas Smith
In article <4q7o9v$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> APage20301 wrote:
>Date: 18 Jun 1996 22:22:55 -0400
>From: apage...@aol.com (APage20301)
>Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Newsgroups: rec.music.hip-hop
>Subject: Re: Pharcyde w/ 90210 kid: any opinions?
>
>It's interesting that people talk about the roots of hip-hop and how, if
>people don't come from those roots, they are immediately suspect. Some
>people trace the roots of hip-hop all the way to Jamaica (some back to
>Africa), but most people say it started in the South Bronx, USA. (MC Shan
>said it started in Queens, but hey...).
M.C. Shan never said hip-hop originated in Queens. He talked about hip-hop IN Queens
for the benefit of people who wanted to know about how Queens got into hip-hop. When
he says "you love to hear the story again and again, of how it all got started way
back when..." he's talking about how it started FOR Queens, not that it started IN
Queens.
How many rappers are coming out of
>the Bronx now? I can name four national artists from the Bronx still
>majorly active in hip-hop as we speak: KRS, Diamond D, Fat Joe, and Sadat
>X. That's it. Boogiemonsters is gone. D-Nice? Nowhere to be seen. So, what
>do I say all this for? Well, I freestyle and write rhymes, okay? I'm from
>New Orleans. New Orleans is nowhere fucking near the South Bronx. Still, I
>feel that I am true to the culture abd deserve a shot. If I came out
>tomorrow and my rhymes and beats were alright (let's be humble and say I
>was average), no one would question my right to rap. However, when Brian
>Austin Green comes with an average song, everyone is wondering: is it a
>gimmick? is he really down? etc., etc. Sure, he's a TV star. So was
>Heather B. Lauryn was in a pretty corny movie called "Sister Act 2". Does
>that affect her credibility? I think y'all should listen to the song,
>judge him by his skills and that's it.
I hear what you're saying and I assume you are responding to my earlier post about
Brian Austin Green and why people question the sincerity of his entrance into
hip-hop. If you read my post carefully, you would realize that I made no reference
to regions of the country when talking about the roots of hip-hop. I said it was
rooted primarily in the black and latino youth experience in America and is, for most
part, produced and performed by them. Consequently, much, if not all, of the subject
matter of rap music deals with the experiences of black and latino youth in America.
Now I'm all for judging Brian Austin Green based on his skills and not his skin color
as I said earlier. But you've got to realize a couple of things. One, because he is
white and he is attempting to perform art inextricably linked to the black and latino
youth experience in America, he will automatically be questioned about his sincerity
because he has not had those same experiences. Headz will want to know how he is
going make his shit relevant to them and their experiences without appearing phony.
Two, because record companies are in the business of making money and are always
looking for ways to maximize profits, they have been known to do things like co-opt
black music by putting a white face on it in order to make it more palatable to
mainstream America. This may not be the case with Brian Austin Green, but due to
record company excesses of the past, it is legitimate to ask whether or not he is a
gimmick. As I said before, headz do not want hip-hop co-opted. If Brian Austin
Green is their attempt at doing so, he will be rejected.
>
>As for me, personally, I've never heard a white equivalent to Ras Kass.
>I've never heard a white equivalent to Nas. This is why I have never
>purchased an album by a white artist, not because of their skin color, but
>because I have a high standard as far as what I purchase.
I have never not purchased a rap album because an artist was white. But that doesn't
mean I wasn't skeptical at first. I'm always willing to listen.
Beastie Boys had
>beats but, I'm sorry, their rhymes never got it for me. I hear they're
>coming out with an instrumental album. I can't wait for that. As far as
>their other work, I know they make party music and I shouldn't expect
>mind-blowing lyricism or groundbreaking flows, but I do. Besides, that
>whiny voice thing irritated the fuck outta me. I still dance when "Paul
>Revere" comes on though, so in that respect I guess they make good party
>music. But I digress.
>
>The point is, judge artists by their art. I think Brian Green isn't dope.
>That ends the argument for me. I won't buy his shit because he just isn't
>dope to me. Everyone else should make the same decision. If he is found to
>be exploiting the culture (like many black artists do as well), or if he's
>just plain wack, (ditto) then he should go the way of Vanilla Ice and Tim
>Dog.;)
I agree that artists should be judged by their art. But when record companies have a
history of co-opting art for the mainstream to the detriment of the art, it isn't
wrong to question the legitimacy of artists who appear to be gimmicks. Remember that
record companies are the business of making money, not preserving, protecting or
nuturing art.