What (who) is Sugaree about?

[David Conrad]

Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
to me personally would be appreciated...
--
David Conrad
con...@usa.net

[Matt Bartram]

It always conjures images of the French Revolution for me. The image of
the woman being taken in a cart to be executed while the guy asks her
not to spill the beans and implicate him. Shades of A Tale of Two
Cities...but that's just me...

Matt

[Peter Steindl]

David Conrad wrote:
>
> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad
> con...@usa.net

Please forgive my netiquette, as I'm a newbie to the USENET.

I'm not quite sure myself. In Tim Trumans interpretation in Grateful
Dead Comics, he showed the story as a pair of outlaws. Sugaree was the
partner who was apprehended. She was hung in the pouring rain without
revealing that her partner/lover(?) was standing in the croud watching.

Peter Steindl
ste...@okstate.edu

[Peter Steindl]

[Peter Steindl]

[Stephen J. Edwards]

My take on the song has always been (always meaning since about
two years ago when I finally "listened" to the song!) was that
Sugaree had a "place" like a bar or a hotel or something, and that
the narrator was trying to escape from people chasing him -- and he
ended up at Sugaree's, an old friend/sometime partner. In other
words, the people out to find the narrator were on his trail and
would end up at Sugaree's place and question her, so he asked her to
use her "charms" (shake it, shake it) and not give up any info on his
whereabouts. Of course, he lights out in the pouring rain so that his
pursuers could not find him.

[Stephen J. Edwards]

[Matthew Grillo]

Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"

Hunter/Jerry is singing to Sugaree

"When they come to take you down
When they bring that wagon round (paddy wagon)
When they come to call on you
And drag your poor body down..."

(the cops are rounding up hookers)

"Just one thing I ask of you
Just one thing for me
Please forget you knew my name
My darlin...Sugaree"

(please don't tell the police my name when they question you,
it would ruin my standing in the community, etc.)

"Shake it, Shake it, Sugaree
Just don't tell them you know me"

(shake your butt you sweet thing, but don't narc on me
to get yourself out of trouble)

"You know in spite of all you gained
You still have to stand out in the pouring rain"

(she is a streetwalker and she makes a living,
but she still has to stand out in the rain and look for "Johns")

Matthew Grillo

[Barry Welch]

GRI...@austen.oit.umass.edu (Matthew Grillo) writes:

>Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"

< snipperino >

Horseshit!

--
taking up the slack for my bud wharfie!

[Mike Stillman]

Matthew Grillo (GRI...@austen.oit.umass.edu) wrote:
: Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"

I think that Sugaree is an artificial sweetener, and the singer is a
diabetic who is disoriented from consuming too much of it.

_.,-*~'`^'*-,._ _.,-*'`^'*-,.
'*-,._ Mike Stillman '*-,
'*-,.__.,-*' Chicago, IL _.,-*~'`^'*-,._
mik...@rci.ripco.com '*-,._.,-*'`^ '

[AZanimal]

Barry Welch writes:

> GRI...@austen.oit.umass.edu (Matthew Grillo) writes:

>>Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"

> < snipperino >

> Horseshit!

What you mean, horseshit?!! Hunter himself has stated in interviews that
he considers different interpretations of his songs to be valid, whether
or not he intended them. (Such as the many possible takes on "Bertha"
which have nothing to do with its rather prosaic origins.) What makes you
think Mr. Grillo's interpretation of Sugaree is any less valid than the
others posted? This has always been my take on it, and it's supported by
the lyrics he quotes. Personally I find the many different
interpretations fascinating. Keep 'em coming!

[brucem...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 9, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, David Conrad wrote:
> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad
> con...@usa.net

I also envision a hooker who is asked not to finger the singer as one of her clients when she gets busted.

[James Pablos]

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 9:45:49 AM UTC-4, brucem...@gmail.com wrote:

> I also envision a hooker who is asked not to finger the singer

The problem with this interpretation is that the crime is too small, too jejune. The urgency and drama of the narrative situation implies something more serious -- such as a murder.

[sparksfly]

Could be his 14 year old girl friend a la Jimmy Page.

[sparksfly]

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 10:49:10 AM UTC-4, Steve wrote:
> In article <74d1f74a-cc6c-462e...@googlegroups.com>,

> Huh, a post from 1997 ?
>
>
>
> Anyway, I refer such questions back to the annotated lyrics...
>
> http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/
>
>

Well now I know the source of the word Jubilee but we are no closer to solving the mystery.

But the more I think about, I'm pretty sure Surgaree was a tranny. Hunter's private little Crying Game.

[Yoke R]

On Sunday, February 9, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, David Conrad wrote:
> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad
>

It was AWL about Elsie Lifshin, who had a son with her husband, Irving Lifshin and they named the poor bastard - Scott.

AWLSO known as iL_Wereo, the fucked-up one.

[B]

sparksfly <mrbi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Well now I know the source of the word Jubilee but we are no closer to solving the mystery.
>
> But the more I think about, I'm pretty sure Surgaree was a tranny.
> Hunter's private little Crying Game.

Looking too deep. Hunter was making some Tang. Shake it, shake it (too)
sugary.

[sparksfly]

I suppose you're right. A song about a transexual might better be called Surgery as in sex reassignment surgery. But the Tang reference, though dated, is reminiscent of the type of sexual double entendres made famous by the great blues legends that Hunter and Garcia were so influenced by.

[James Pablos]

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:00:41 PM UTC-4, sparksfly wrote:

> But the Tang reference, though dated, is reminiscent of the type of sexual double entendres made famous by the great blues legends that Hunter and Garcia were so influenced by.

like Pigpen sings on "Rosemary"

The garden was sealed
when the flowers decayed

[sparksfly]

Yeah, Rosemary, I love it. Grow it every year. Great with lamb champs and chicken. Very fragrant herb. Succulent, you might say.

[sparksfly]

[B]

Yuck!

[James Pablos]

Yup, and hence the final couplet:

No one may come here,
Since no one may stay...

[gratefuljoe]

I always thought in the beginning of this song with the bringing the wagon around was a reference to how in older, medieval times a wagon would come around and dead bodies would be piled on (I'm thinking of a Monty Python movie). Kinda gave me that Dead (and dead) profound look such as in all the other songs like Black Peter and Brokedown. But the other expalanations seem plausible as well so who knows.

[gratefuljoe]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 4:28:01 PM UTC-4, gratefuljoe wrote:
> I always thought in the beginning of this song with the bringing the wagon around was a reference to how in older, medieval times a wagon would come around and dead bodies would be piled on (I'm thinking of a Monty Python movie). Kinda gave me that Dead (and dead) profound look such as in all the other songs like Black Peter and Brokedown. But the other expalanations seem plausible as well so who knows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs

[bmoore]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, gratefuljoe wrote:
> I always thought in the beginning of this song with the bringing the wagon around was a reference to how in older, medieval times a wagon would come around and dead bodies would be piled on (I'm thinking of a Monty Python movie). Kinda gave me that Dead (and dead) profound look such as in all the other songs like Black Peter and Brokedown. But the other expalanations seem plausible as well so who knows.

Bring out your Dead!

[Just Kidding]

I recall reading somewhere (?) that Hunter said the singer was
addressing a pimp, so the hooker interpretation may not be too far
off.

[B]

"Uh I'm not quite dead yet".

[Edwin Hurwitz]

Paddy wagon.

[the Felonious Kidd]

I have thought both dead wagon and paddy wagon in the past. The idea of the the dead wagon seems kind of anachronistic when juxtaposed with the words "you thought you was the cool fool" but I'm sure that horse drawn hearses were still fairly common as late as the Roaring Twenties. And the line "One last voice is calling you and I guess it's time you go" sure strikes a note of finality. Don't tell anyone, not even St. Peter, that I ever associated with you. Then in the end the speaker cops to the fact that s/he might be just as much a bad seed as Sugree, that s/he will end up "on the run" too.

http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt2g5017kb/

Still, you'd have a tough time convincing me that Sugree was not written about a woman I used to date, thankfully, very briefly. It was around the same time as I was introduced to the epic "Moe's Place" Sugaree and the song became one of my all time favorite songs, one I never get tired of.

https://archive.org/details/gd78-11-24.sbd.prefm.13948.sbefail.shnf

[sparksfly]

On Friday, May 30, 2014 11:19:28 AM UTC-4, the Felonious Kidd wrote:
> On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:10:27 PM UTC-7, edwin wrote:
>
> > In article <cde82861-65eb-4f03...@googlegroups.com>, gratefuljoe <grate...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
>

>
> I have thought both dead wagon and paddy wagon in the past. The idea of the the dead wagon seems kind of anachronistic when juxtaposed with the words "you thought you was the cool fool" but I'm sure that horse drawn hearses were still fairly common as late as the Roaring Twenties.

Why take it so literally? I've always taken it metaphorically and in that sense the wagon is coming for all of us. This song doesn't have any distinct time and place for me. It's timeless, like my posts to rmgd.

[James Pablos]

On Friday, May 30, 2014 11:55:46 AM UTC-4, sparksfly wrote:

> Why take it so literally?

The wagon is the same one mentioned in "Eyes of the World"? Loaded with clay...

[the Felonious Kidd]

Yeah but how does Deliah DeLion fit in this metaphor? How is she related to Sugaree? Daughter? Mother? Second cousin by marriage? Is she heavier than a dire wolf? And her wing span, are we talking nuthatch territory or something much shorter?

[the Felonious Kidd]

On Friday, May 30, 2014 9:31:18 AM UTC-7, Steve wrote:
> In article <6e3cf843-0a8c-4fd4...@googlegroups.com>,

> the Felonious Kidd <bob_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > . It was around the
> > same time as I was introduced to the epic "Moe's Place" Sugaree and the song
> > became one of my all time favorite songs, one I never get tired of.
> >
> > https://archive.org/details/gd78-11-24.sbd.prefm.13948.sbefail.shnf
>

> Awesome, sounds like the Sugaree I have on vinyl called "For Deadheads
> Only". I bought the bootleg records when visiting New York in 1984.
> Great memories. Cool version. Thanks.
>
> Steve

I would not be surprised if they are the same. In the late 70's and early 80's there were a few bootleg discs floating around that contained cuts from various live recordings that were mixed and matched, and purported to be from a single show. Moe's Places was just one. I used to frequent a record shop in Denver called Underground Records that sold lot's of dubious vinyl and cut outs, and I saw more than just one or two unauthorized Dead "albums". Then the FBI paid them a visit...

[Walter Karmazyn]

Bingo. I always thought the song had to do with somebody who ran into some
serious problem with the law, and the plea of someone close to them to not
drag them down with him/her.

W

[sparksfly]

Of course, and said wagon is drawn by the same over worked ox who takes up the yoke and plows the fields around....

[sparksfly]

You're mixing your metaphors, stop it. Delilah is simply a metaphor for poon-Tang which as B pointed out is the real subject of Sugaree.

[mpmc...@gmail.com]

Right on, BarryW! Wharfie might have said "Oh, horseshit!", but any way you cut it we're getting some Blasts from the past!

On Wednesday, February 12, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Barry Welch wrote:
> GRILLO@austen.....edu (Matthew Grillo) writes:
>
> >Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"
> < snipperino >
>
> Horseshit!
>
> --
> taking up the slack for my bud wharfie!

[tonybar...@gmail.com]

I think it's about a dealer,who gets caught."when they come to take you down, when they bring that wagon 'round"....."please forget you knew my name"....." "Having things sown up tight(all your deals)why do stay awake all night long(worried about the police)"...standing out in the pouring rain (waiting for His Dealer)no matter what the weather.

[Band Beyond You]

Maria Pollack to the white courtesy phone!

[DeaconZooks]

I love "Sugaree" because Hunter/Garcia use a bygone setting, to capture a "flash" in the present, that really is timeless experience.

The setting is an old time carnival, Sugaree a fan dancer or the like, but the important part is the moment of recognition between the speaker and Sugaree.

Sugaree, in the moment, somehow sees the speaker as he really is, not the "sown up tight" persona he seems to present. This is a terrifying prospect for the speaker, who has worked so hard to cover that up; "why do you lay awake all night long."

Garcia seemed, according to recollections of his friends, as giving the impression of being the coolest guy in the room without even trying. He was charismatic and highly intelligent, but he always seemed plagued with inner turmoil.

Clearly Garcia loved that song, it stayed in the rotation, basically since it first showed up, for the duration.

The song to me is about a moment when the tables are turned, he came to see Sugaree, but she ends up "seeing" him.

Many Hunter/Garcia songs follow this pattern; BEW, Ramble on Rose, Ship of Fools, and others. The greatness of these songs is they use a historical setting, to pinpoint a single moment and feeling.

Sorry, but this old tread got me thinking about that song for the past few days.

[Sweetbac]

Yo Mama!
<High 5's RMGD!>

[gene.su...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 12, 1997 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Barry Welch wrote:

> GRI...@austen.oit.umass.edu (Matthew Grillo) writes:
>
> >Sugaree is a prostitute, and the singer is one of her regular "Johns"
> < snipperino >
>
> Horseshit!
>
> --
> taking up the slack for my bud wharfie!

Sugeree is a prostitute, and if you can't listen to what people say that know what their talking about, then three things are for sure:
1) You are NOT a Deadhead.
2) You have no idea about what a Deadhead is.
3) Obviously you're a dumb ass!

[karlar...@gmail.com]

Libba Cotten recorded a song long before Hunter and the dead called Shake Sugaree. While it's not an earlier version of Sugaree, there's a lot of Cotten in the Dead vibe.

[john.p...@gmail.com]

I definitely fancy her as a dancer (Shake Your Money Maker). The Jubilee is the venue, which unfortunately must present in the 'pouring rain' at times because carnivals are outside. The rain can also double as a metaphor for her lonelines, which subsides somewhat when she sees her benefactor (the storyteller/singer) in the back of the audience. He doesn't risk being seen tipping her because he is too high profiled in the community. She dances for HIM when he's there. She always looks for him because she loves him ... as best she CAN love. He takes care of her on the side because he is obsessed with her, and he is often in her audience...often in disguise (I just throw this in for color). It's as simple as that. They are both kindred spirits. They are both wounded souls in their separate, incongruous worlds, and they understand each other's pain. They can somehow feel what the other feels without words...simply by looking into each other's sad, lonely eyes. It's as simple as that. The where, when, and how they meet is communicated thusly, and is as secret as what they do when they crash into each other's arms.

[The old geezer]

I guess........

[john.p...@gmail.com]

Albeit, I do accept the hooker and drug dealers as plausible if needing to conjure more of a period piece.

[James Pablos]

On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 2:30:51 PM UTC-4, john.p...@gmail.com wrote:
> Albeit, I do accept the hooker and drug dealers as plausible if needing to conjure more of a period piece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTK3-ANwhwA

Mayer is a god!!

[john.p...@gmail.com]

I should add that Sugaree, the exotic dancer, Is a Gypsy...and 'the wagon' is the carnival or Jubilee wagon that comes around to get her after everything is loaded up...they come to 'take her down' from the stage...big roustabout hands around her tiny waste. These wagon's are brightly painted like you would expect a carnival wagon to be, unlike her view on the reality of Love as she sees it...nothing like the hearse's or paddy wagon's you hear spoken of.

[Band Beyond You]

Though of course Hunter would allow for multiple, ambiguous interpretations
by the listener, which is what he intended...

[The old geezer]

Who cares? Just enjoy the music!!!

[the Felonious Kidd]

Let me settle this once and for all. Sugaree was written about that bit...girl I was dating who came to my 21st birthday party and left with another guy. As fate would have it I got the last laugh.

[kvo...@gmail.com]

Based on Hunter's own thoughts on what it means, I've always heard it as a pimp asking one of his girls, who is taking the fall for a murder he committed, not to give him up to the authorities before she's hanged.

[deadg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 9, 1997 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, David Conrad wrote:
> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad
> conrad@usa.n

It's AWL about iL_WeReO (Scot Lifshin) who died several years ago.

[the Felonious Kidd]

Yeah. Just like Elvis and Jim Morrison. That's the ticket.

[seand...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, February 9, 1997 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, David Conrad wrote:
> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad

> con...@usa.net

It's about a transvestite. Maybe a prostitute.

[jessica...@me.com]

It’s about being an outlaw dealer - do you know who the band of merry pranksters were? The culture around the dead still exists but the honor is gone. Rare to find a man or woman of their word these days.

[ran...@chiyoda.ed.jp]

1997年2月9日日曜日 17時00分00秒 UTC+9 David Conrad:

> Always loved the tune, but can't figure out the bigger meaning. Replying
> to me personally would be appreciated...
> --
> David Conrad
> con...@usa.net

Been listening to this for years. Sugaree always struck me as being cocaine. Lyrics explore the user's relationship with the drug.

[johnme...@gmail.com]

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[jenngenti...@gmail.com]

Well said!

[jenngenti...@gmail.com]

I LOVE that!!!! Thanks 😊

[Just Kidding]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:04:17 -0800 (PST), jenngenti...@gmail.com
wrote:

>I LOVE that!!!! Thanks ?

So jenn....what are you wearing right about now??

[Band Beyond You]

https://youtu.be/tEaTrmlZUgw

[sarahem...@gmail.com]

Garcia’s fictional H dealer. Candyman, West LA fade-away are also about his addiction.

[The old geezer]

NP: Kicks - Paul Revere & the Raiders