Disciplining Children
Matt Archer
not only a responsible necessity, but it also will create a more
productive society. In this day and age of fast food, cable tv and
plastic surgery, I think its refreshing to know that it's still legal
to spank one's own child when necessary. Kids yearn for discipline and
they need to know where the boundaries are. I don't want any form of
government or government telling me how to raise my child nor how to
discipline them.
Now, back to the music....4-14-72, Coppenhagen Denmark: Pigpen in 'Big
Boss Man' was simply brilliant.
dave kelly
Matt Archer wrote:
Look here, junior...after reading this post, umma bitch slap
ya and send ya to your room for a time out!
now bac to this Z.Z. Top cd...
John
"Matt Archer" <march...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6964ea4a.02071...@posting.google.com...
Trying to talk yourself into thinking this is right? uh no...it's not right
to hit your children. Try some love, it just may work, but give it some
time. ok, going to put on 4/14 now.
Drewgrange
right
> to hit your children. Try some love, it just may work, but give it some
> time. ok, going to put on 4/14 now.
Well, I guess if by hitting you mean punching the kid in the face it would
be wrong.. But I'm willing to say I ended up better off from a few
spankings. When I was a kid I didn't understand "loving discipline", I just
loved it when my parents did it because I could just pretend like I was
sorry and go do whatever it was again.
Theres no less effective form of punishment than "Now go sit over there and
think about what you did," all I used to do is think about not thinking
about what I did, and how fun it was, and planning my next attempt.
Now when they spanked, I REALLY thought about what I did, as in "Son of a
bitch, I'm never doing that again!"
I guess I'm not that upset over parents spanking their kids because mine
saved it for special lessons. Things that could be taught from the mouth
were,, but there are just some things that require a good dose of pain.
mrpomfrit
Matt Archer wrote in message
<6964ea4a.02071...@posting.google.com>...
>Contrary to conventional wisdom, I think hitting one's own child is
>not only a responsible necessity, but it also will create a more
>productive society.
Please, please don't hit your children.
They need discipline, yes, and they need to know where the boundaries are,
yes, but they need love and respect, too.
Every time you hit your child you are admitting failure, communicating
failure and teaching failure.
Please, please never hit your children. Ever.
garnet
I agree, it is such a huge blow to a childs self esteem and self worth,
something you need to make a focus on nurturing, not destroying.
Bone Jak2
Garry Bryan
beatings, no rage, just a swat. . .this was preceeded with the words, "What
you are doing is wrong and you have until the count of three to stop. One,
two, three". . .if they hadn't stopped, I stopped them and gave them a swat,
more of an embrassment than pain. They learned very quickly that I meant it
and that they were in control of their actions, not me. My oldest son even
told me he thought it was fine years later when he was in his teens. I think
they all got a total of 5 or 6 swats in their lives and none after the age
of 4 or so. . .they learned quickly. . .
Garry
Kerry Neilson
"mrpomfrit" <mrpo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:agjcvr$hos$1...@wanadoo.fr...
There is an enormous difference between hitting and spanking. I was spanked
all the freakin time. Never once was it during the moment of fury. And it
was alway on the nice meaty portion of the ass. I always deserved it
(except for one time, but the odds were great), and I dont' resent my
parents for doing it at all.
That said, I'm not certain I would ever discipline a child that way. But
I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't. My guess is that I wouldn't. But done
properly, I can be certain it isn't harmful.
Kerry Neilson
"Garry Bryan" <ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote in message
news:10264020...@cswreg.cos.agilent.com...
Man, I must have been retarded. I know I eceeded six in a day on many
occasions.
Garry Bryan
: "Garry Bryan" <ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote in message
Don't be too hard on yourself. . .or I'll have to spank you. . .:)
Garry
cam6...@spambestweb.net
out back. Nothing like a little sojourn in "the hole" to straighten a
kid out. God help the gov'ment if they ever try to restrict my right to
abuse my own child.
andrew
Eric Salmassy
Plus teaching them that violence is an acceptable way to get the result you
want.
Mvp8779
>failure and teaching failure.
>
>Please, please never hit your children. Ever.
>
bullshit, spank on I say. nothing like a little bit of tough love to prevent
raising a kid w/ no respect for any authority
mvp
Chuck Gregg
"Bone Jak2" <bone...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711111635...@mb-cc.aol.com...
JC Martin
> not only a responsible necessity, but it also will create a more
> productive society.
Your logic is faulty is the sense that the current lack of discipline in our
culture does not stem from the lack of spankings. Spankings do very little,
and sometimes can cease or slow down a child's development. Enough parents
out there are raising disciplined and loving kids, who *don't* sit in front
of the TV all day playing Nintendo, to know that that there's no correlation
between spankings and discipline. Summing up... uninvolved parents cause
kids to lose focus, not a lack of spankings.
-JC
Sparks
children. I have been fortunate to never have to do it but she has always
known that the threat was there. I remember when she was about 2 1/2 years
old and made a total mess of my tape collection. I wanted to go ballistic on
the little varmit but instead I tried the 'time-out' approach. I remember
the next morning I woke up in my bed with my cute little angel sitting on my
chest holding a pillow on my face laughing away. I learned an important
lesson in parenthood that day - never...never go to sleep. -true story
Sparks
--
Well, I gotta go now. What do you think I do? Write letters all day?
-Steve Martin 'The Jerk'
----
"Matt Archer" <march...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6964ea4a.02071...@posting.google.com...
Glug420
poster eluded to, that parents hitting their children is a sign that
communication has broken down between the parent and child, and with that
breakdown comes frustration, which some people only know how to express through
violence. If kids know they can get your goat (aka push your buttons) by doing
something they will continue to test that boundary.
Also what if the spanking doesnt work, what then, a toss through a plate glass
window, starvation, chinese water torture etc..
My CDR list is @
http://db.etree.org/glug
Sarandipidy
>spankings.
me too. but they also used "i'm so disappointed in you," yelling, and sitting
on the stairs (as opposed to my room with all the toys). it was just a few.
i dunno. i don't consider a simple spanking any sort of abuse. there are other
ways though, but i don't think calm voices really help much. you can be stern
without using a hand, and you can show love with a loud voice and a harsh
punishment just as long as there isn't any name calling.
>I guess I'm not that upset over parents spanking their kids because mine
>saved it for special lessons.
same here. my dad was hit as a kid (belts and spoons) and he had vowed never to
act like his parents. but i remember he spanked me a couple times when i did
something pretty bad. although i never did anything really terrible (i.e. i was
a good kid). i was a very good kid, acutally.
just look at the majority of kids today. they are *horrible*, they know
absolutely *NONONONO* discipline whatsoever. and i'm not a big fan of
discipline, but these kids can really get out of hand and ridiculous. too much
of getting exactly what they want. i don't know what the answer is but parents
need to find something to control their children.
i don't think i would spank my kid, but i know it happened to me a few times
and i am not bothered by it. it barely even hurt, i just knew it was a sign
that they were *really really mad.* my parents give and continue to give me
plenty of love and respect.
sara
king kong, little elves
on the rooftops they dance
valentino-type tangoes
while the makeup mans hands
shut the eyes of the dead
not to embarass anyone
farewell angelina
the sky is embarrassed
and i must be gone
Raymond Baxter
That is bullshit and you know it! Just because a few fucked up kids go and
shoot up their high schools is MOST CERTAINLY NOT an indictment of bad
behavior for the rest of today's children. I just graduated from high
school and my class was extremely friendly, peaceful, and active in the
community. I also took a 10 day trip to Spain with my mother's students
from another high school and all 15 accepted me right into their established
group and hugs and smiles. I think that the majority of kids who grew up
during the relatively calm and peaceful decade of the 90s are actually much
more prepared to enter adulthood then those who grew up during the turbulent
60s and 70s.
Peace,
Ray
"Sarandipidy" <saran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711153029...@mb-cj.aol.com...
slenon
and peaceful decade of the 90s are actually much
>more prepared to enter adulthood then those who grew up during the
turbulent 60s and 70s.
>Peace, Ray
Provided, of course, that they sucessfully learned to read, can do
mathematics without a calculator, make change without a cash register that
shows them the amount to return, and take an order in a fast food restaurant
without having to resort to pictures on the cash register. They fail to
understand that the world does not owe them a living, that traffic laws are
for the safety of all, and that their brand new cars with audio output
rivaling a 747 at takeoff are an annoyance to much of society.
The children of the 90's are as a rule more self-centered than any previous
generation, less well-mannered, products of pop-psych and pop-education. I
grant you that many people who became parents in the 70's and 80's were
poorly prepared products of an educational system that was rapidly embracing
political correctness and revisionist history. They did not seem to realize
that sending a child to room full of toys as punishment doesn't work. "Time
Out" is one of the more foolish ways of discipline I have ever seen in use.
Judicious spanking alerts a child who has yet to develop adult linguistic
skills that he has trangressed. I find it far more acceptable to smack a
child's butt or hand as a means of halting dangerous or unacceptable
behavior than to allow him to grab a hot pan, scald himself, and suffer
burns while I try to explain the consequences of his action should he not
stop immediately.
How wonderful that you were taken to Spain and that your fellow travelers
greeted you with hugs. I wonder how much more and how much more rapidly you
might have encountered adulthood if you were instead whisked off to S.
Vietnam or some other conflict and greeted the necessity of learning a new
set of rules and realities to try to further your longevity.
Not only are most kids today horrible, so are their parents. You're lucky
no one left you in a hot car for three hours while they had their hair done.
You're lucky your mother is a professional. Step outside your comfortable
life and look at reality.
--
Stev
Still dancing in the Phil Zone & scattering Garcia ashes
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) - In healthcare the ultimate bottom line is patients not
profit
Save a cow, eat a PETA member
sle...@tampabay.rr.com
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm
Jonathan Miller
There's nothing magic about hitting your kids that makes them behave.
There _is_ something weird about being physically hit that pisses
people off and makes you want to get back at Dad, instead of doing
what what he wants. If that's what you want from your kids, go to it.
What is magic is consistent discipline. I see lots of parents
telling their kids "Quit it, or I'll knock your head off" seven or
eight times before they step in. The kids learn that they can
misbehave six or seven times, and Mom won't really do what she says.
Most folks who rant and rave about spanking are totally right that
kids need discipline, they just don't have a clue of what else they
can do to set limits on their kids
Logical punishments go a lot further than spanking. Let's say Junior
breaks a window. If you spank him, the lesson is "You're trapped in
this house with a sadist". If he has to do chores for the neighbor to
pay for it, the lesson is "There's consequences to what I do".
Attention helps too. Lots of kids act up, because that's the only
time Mom or Dad look their way. Short little comments like "This room
looks nice with the toys picked up", or "I see a brother and sister
playing quietly like they should" go a long way.
I work as a psychotherapist, and spent most of my first four years
helping kids with behavior problems. The parents who quit hitting
their kids, followed through on logical punishments consistently, and
praised their kids for acting right, told me their kid's behavior got
a kit better. The ones who didn't, didn't.
Take care,
Jon
****************************************************
Fractal & Tie-Dye Grateful Dead CD Covers:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/gdcdrcovers/index.html
Latest additions: 6-20-83, 11-26-72, 11-22-72, 7-31-74,
Sarandipidy
i wouldnt say that. i would say there were ways that were more effective for
the future and such, but spankings *do* work just as well as any other stern
discipline.
Raymond Baxter
are not HORRIBLE! Perhaps their parents are, the system definitely is, and
a Republican-infected government that tells the poor to go fuck themselves,
the same which sent millions of poor black men to be slaughtered in 'Nam, is
pure evil. Don't blame the children, and don't beat the children. It is
that simple. First, I will take our generation of young people over the
drug-crazed, authority-hating generation of "flower children" who sold out
after the music died around '70 and the air was let out of their balloons
and they became corporate whores who have let us with a shitty economy, the
rise of ghettolands, and a rapidly deteriorating environment. And guess
what? In America, which is ridiculously wealthy, people DO have a right to
a decent living at the hands of their more fortunate taxpaying brothers and
sisters. No American should be allowed to starve or be forced to sleep in
the streets at night, EVEN if they are lazy and "no good." They ARE human
damn it and they are our brothers and sisters!!! And don't give me this crap
about "you are so lucky, look at reality." I DO know what reality is like,
I am volunteering my time in the ghettos of Philly and I am friends with
many kids who volunteered their time in Guatemala, where conditions are 100X
worse. I KNOW I am blessed with my comfortable life but I am not ashamed of
it. Thats what makes America so great, you don't have to be embarrased by
your success, but you DO have to share it!
Peace,
Ray
"slenon" <sle...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5UmX8.14851$XH.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Purplehake
Raymond Baxter
to them instead of sitting on your ass and bitching about them.
"Purplehake" <purpl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711211517...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> Ignorance breeds ignorance.
Sarandipidy
i don't think he ever said anything about "ghetto brats." just the fact that
many of the young are not growing up...well...intelligent. it doesn't matter if
you're rich or poor, you're exposed to the media at the time.
>are not HORRIBLE!
i think he meant "horribly *behaved,* which is a common trait i have seen
recently.
>a Republican-infected government that tells the poor to go fuck themselves,
>the same which sent millions of poor black men to be slaughtered in 'Nam, is
>pure evil.
amen to that.
>Don't blame the children, and don't beat the children
don't do either, yes, though i don't think spanking is synynomous with beating.
it can be, but cmon, 5 times in a child's life (on his cushy-padded butt) is
not beating. let's be realisitc.
>First, I will take our generation of young people over the
>drug-crazed, authority-hating generation of "flower children"
nah man. seriously, i don't think you have been paying much attention. besides
the fact that we're talking about children and not teens-mid 20s, you won't
find many teenagers these days with a lot to say (congress whaaa? environment
whaa?), and the ones you do find are just modern authority-hating replications
of the past (with worse music), so you'd dislike them just as much. of course
you'll find diversity just as anywhere else. but if you generalize, you've
still got two groups- the ones who care and the ones who don't, and of course,
the ones who care are unconventional and the minority.
how do i know this? i am one. i associate and meet with this age group. i've
never seen so many vapid, empty-headed people in my entire life. you should
just hear their conversations. i'm expecting better in college, though.
check out this performance poem by taylor mali which pretty much focuses on the
majority of young people today.
Totally like whatever, you know?
In case you hadn’t noticed,
it has somehow become totally uncool
to sound like you know what you’re talking about?
Or believe strongly in what you’re saying?
Invisible question marks and parenthetical (you know?)’s
have been attaching themselves to the ends of our sentences?
Even when those sentences aren’t, like, questions? You know?
Declarative sentences—so-called
because they used to, like, DECLARE things to be true
as opposed to other things which were, like, not—
have been infected by a totally hip
and tragically cool interrogative tone? You know?
Like, don’t think I’m uncool just because I’ve noticed this;
this is just like the word on the street, you know?
It’s like what I’ve heard?
I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions, okay?
I’m just inviting you to join me in my uncertainty?
What has happened to our conviction?
Where are the limbs out on which we once walked?
Have they been, like, chopped down
with the rest of the rain forest?
Or do we have, like, nothing to say?
Has society become so, like, totally . . .
I mean absolutely . . . You know?
That we’ve just gotten to the point where it’s just, like . . .
whatever!
And so actually our disarticulation . . . ness
is just a clever sort of . . . thing
to disguise the fact that we’ve become
the most aggressively inarticulate generation
to come along since . . .
you know, a long, long time ago!
I entreat you, I implore you, I exhort you,
I challenge you: To speak with conviction.
To say what you believe in a manner that bespeaks
the determination with which you believe it.
Because contrary to the wisdom of the bumper sticker,
it is not enough these days to simply QUESTION AUTHORITY.
You have to speak with it, too.
>people DO have a right to
>a decent living at the hands of their more fortunate taxpaying brothers and
>sisters.
i think you are using this person as a means to vent. this has nothing to do
with disciplining children, and he has not said anything about the class
system. he simply said that 1) the education factor is pitiful (which it is)
and 2) spankings can work. i didn't see anything in there which denounces the
poor or less fortunate.
>No American should be allowed to starve or be forced to sleep in
>the streets at night
i agree. "when i give food to the poor, they call me a saint. when i ask why
the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
Jperdue4
>to them instead of sitting on your ass and bitching about them.
yeah go out and meet them in the street panhandling cash "for smokes"....or at
the mall...thats the best place to get a glimpse of thedamnkidzzz.....mtv has
come home to roost....
Raymond Baxter
"They fail to understand that the world does not owe them a living"
Well, if they don't understand it now, they will understand when they
graduate from college with a degree and can't find a better job then
flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Nowadays you need one of four things to get
a job right out of college:
1. an MD
2. a law degree
3. a master's degree
4. a whole lot of luck
So, who cares if children don't know the world doesn't "owe" them anything?
They will learn soon enough!
Remember, I'm 18 also and I see things in quite a different light when you
speak of the quality of young people today. That MTV stereotype is
something our generation can't shake but that is all it is, a stereotype.
Ray
"Sarandipidy" <saran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711222126...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> Declarative sentences-so-called
> because they used to, like, DECLARE things to be true
> as opposed to other things which were, like, not-
Purplehake
of our country. But it doesn't does it. I'm not going to go to some ghetto and
hang out. I work hard and sorry for being selfish but I'm gonna got out in the
country or the ocean and relax. Cause I work with your so called salt of the
earth every day. Some people need to learn to help themselves. And guess what
life isn't fair so get off your ass and find a shitty job and work like the
rest of the world. It's far better in the USA that anywhere else. Yea we all
don't have some cush little job that we all love so much. But it's a way of
life. Be lazy or not be lazy. Suck off the system and blame the government.
It's the working class average Joe that pays most of the taxes that goes to the
bull#@!$. Be honest work hard and pay for the poor which includes the ignorant
lazy #$%*&$s that say they need more. F&^% you. It's been like that since day
one and it ain't gonna change now. We all goto work and have a few little
enjoyments that keep us sane. I'm sick of the crying and bitchin' . Get off the
wagon.
Sarandipidy
>to them instead of sitting on your ass and bitching about them.
>
how do you know they haven't? why would anyone say anything without first hand
experience?
look, i don't think anyone here said "kids are horrible things and should be
beaten everyday." people have just noticed a rise in "misbehavior" and
selfishness, which *obviously* is to blame of parents rather than the children
themselves. i personally don't think spanking is the way, but parents today do
need to find some action that teaches their kids right from wrong (i.e.
dangerous/offensive from respectful/safe/openminded). you can't deny that the
television has slowly evolved into the babysitter. bad move.
-mike-
a child?
Any spanking done in anger is a mistake. Period.
Virtually all spankings I have received/ witnessed
have been done in anger.
The message you give is: I am bigger, I want you
to do something you don't want to do, I will
physically force you to do it my way. What is the
difference between a spanking, pulling their hair,
whipping the soles of their feet, or using
electric shock? Every one of these may be
effective (with different children in different
degrees) but there is an easy line to draw... no
hitting.
We have a sign on our refrigerator: No Spanking
in This House
That goes for birthday spankings, teasing, playing
and anything else.
I have done a fair bit of reading on discipline
lately and a one thing really stuck out. It had
to do with children who have been abused. They
will try to get a spanking or other physical
punishment because that is what they equate with
love. And how exactly does a spanking correct/
influence someone like that? Some children have
their bones broken, their faces scarred, their
guts mangled. Do you think a spanking scares
them? And I bet every one of those injuries was
done by someone who felt it was the right thing to
do. They were "teaching" respect or obedience or
fear or self control or something else, but it
just escalated and got out of hand.
I am quite sure there are people who can dispense
physical punishment in a way that does not do
damage. But I am equally sure that number is very
small. I will not tell someone they can not
discipline as they see fit, but I will strongly
urge you to think very carefully about what you
are doing.
And there is absolutely NO WAY I would allow a
school to use corporal punishment on my children.
That is a recipe for disaster.
Force has a way of attracting more force, love
seems to attract love. Treat the children as a
fragile resource that can be damaged unknowingly,
and err on the side of restraint.
-m-
Raymond Baxter
a corporate drone, a product of the 80s "Me" decade. Enjoy your time in the
country or by the shore while helpless, starving 5 year olds waste away in
the ghettos. Be my guest!
"Purplehake" <purpl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711231408...@mb-mw.aol.com...
-mike-
> Judicious spanking alerts a child who has yet to develop adult linguistic
> skills that he has trangressed. I find it far more acceptable to smack a
> child's butt or hand as a means of halting dangerous or unacceptable
> behavior than to allow him to grab a hot pan, scald himself, and suffer
> burns while I try to explain the consequences of his action should he not
> stop immediately.
>
In spite of my earlier post begging folks to not
spank, I agree with this exception. A small child
going into the street might rate a swat on the
hind end. One is probably enough, it just needs
to get their attention. I concede this situation
because there is an age old enough to get in real
danger yet young enough to not understand abstract
ideas like "if you". I also believe that more
people can spank in this case without escalation.
A swat and the thing is done.
-m-
Raymond Baxter
from wrong"
In other words, if you are a bad parent who lacks compassion and
communication skills, go ahead and paddle your children.
Can you say "trailer trash"----and NO Sara I am not calling you trash, I am
saying that people who lack compassion/communication/intelligence? to deal
with their child in non-physical ways are at the cornerpiece of the TT
stereotype. Don't harm the child for the parents incompetance, that just
breeds similar behavior in the next generation. It is a vicious, vicious
cycle.
Ray
"Sarandipidy" <saran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711232934...@mb-cj.aol.com...
JC Martin
news:eq3siu8mi5mhinvh1...@4ax.com...
That's the truth.
-JC
mrpomfrit
Jonathan Miller wrote in message ...
>Hey now,
>
>There's nothing magic about hitting your kids that makes them behave.
He's right, you know.
mrpomfrit
Sarandipidy wrote in message
<20020711222126...@mb-cj.aol.com>...
>Totally like whatever, you know?
>
Thanks for this poem. It's quite moving. I passed it on to my wife, who
teaches history of art every summer to visiting American kids. Last year she
was despairing of the like, you know, inarticulacy? But this year, she says
she probably doesn't need the poem because her kids are impressively bright
and articulate.
So I just asked her to what she ascribes the difference this year. She
reckons age is a small factor (they're 16 - 17 this year rather than the
17 - 18 of last year), but that mainly it's a question of background; not,
she added, social provenance, wealth, class etc., but simply the degree of
involvement of the parents. This year, she says, the little comments she
picks up from the kids about their home lives show a greater degree of
interest from the parents in their childrens' studies and interests: the
kids are more articulate and more confident of their own perceptions and
opinions.
So it seems we shouldn't rush to blame the kids for dumbing down.
Sarandipidy
>shoot up their high school
look, we're not talking about high schoolers. we're talking about little kids.
i worked at a day camp. i've seen it in the grocery store, i've seen it in my
friend's brothers and sisters. there are some very sweet kids (know plenty of
those too) but a good amount of them kick, bite, swear (at you, the adult) if
they don't get their way. of course underlying their behavior you still see a
sweet kid underneath- it's up the the adult to 'tap into' that quality.
>I just graduated from high
>school and my class was extremely friendly, peaceful, and active in the
>community.
so did i. my class were a bunch of kids who ran around having promiscuous sex
and babies, thinking they were adults. also, doing coke in the bathroom was
pretty popular.
i'm just a mere 18. am i horribly behaved? i hope not. i know i was talking
about little kids who seem to be brought up on sugar, television, and video
games these days. they don't know how to respect others. i think it's important
to get your kid involved in things at an early age (i.e. one sport and one
activity, as in art or an instrument) to expose them to much more than the
confines of public school or their living room. if the kid wants to quit when
he reaches a certain age, of course he can, but he will always have a general
knowledge and discipline from that particular experience; he will also learn,
hopefully, to respect both athletics and the arts.
>That is bullshit and you know it!
btw, i think you need to calm down and rationalize your points a little better.
you don't seem very "peaceful and friendly."
Sarandipidy
you're welcome. parents are certainly to blame for their child's development.
also, though some will take art history courses as an "easy A" 'cause they got
in in their heads that art is easy, many also really appreciate art (over
shopping) and that is the reason they have elected to take the course,
therefore a little more focused on learning and opinion. imo anyway.
Sarandipidy
if the parents are self-centered, the kids will grow up self-centered.
>Oh yeah---its the children that are "self-centered" isn't it. You sir, are
>a corporate drone, a product of the 80s "Me" decade. Enjoy your time in the
>country or by the shore while helpless, starving 5 year olds waste away in
>the ghettos. Be my guest!
you seem to lose your point in your manner, therefore making yourself
look...well...bad. you're 18, you said, so prove to everyone that you're
rational and opinionated simultaneously.
also keep in mind that the majority of american kids are not starving in
ghettos, and perhaps people are talking about the kids in their own families.
this conversation is not about the injustice of poverty so i can't figure out
why you keep mentioning it (boisterously).
Sarandipidy
>communication skills, go ahead and paddle your children.
raymond, you are a poor debator. see, read this again:
> i personally don't think spanking is the way, but parents today do
>need to find some action that teaches their kids right from wrong
where did i say it was okay to paddle children for misbehavior? you are so
quick to jump that you don't take the time to notice the ledge.
i will say it now, however, but still not in regards to simple misbehavior.
besides the fact that a couple spanks in a lifetime is not necessarily
"harming," i will still stand behind one poster that if my child were to go to
stick his hand in fire or jump into the swimming pool, a spanking is an okay
means of telling the child that it's a nono. it would be a discipline saved for
dangerous attempts. you need to get it through to the child that it's wrong,
and you want to be safe and completely sure he would not do it again. there is
a greater chance of him listening than if you simply said the same "no" that
you use when he wants to tip over his milk.
garnet
Don't even bother with that dip shit, she is not the brightest of posters. The
comment you quoted sums up her interpretation of our youth and displays her
ignorance of our culture.
garnet
It is a little deeper than, "Parents are to blame for child development". A
few more people than one's parents, and several experience outside family life,
influence the journey of our youth. The attitude you have is why some kids fall
through the cracks and why many good parents are blamed if their child has some
emotional problems.
garnet
cedar
Kids are individuals:Human Beings with unique qualities. "One size
fits all" generalizations about parenting are vacuous. While one child
may respond positively to corporal punishment, another may be
devastated by it, and it is the responsibility of the parent to make
this judgement. From year to year, situation to situation, and child
to child, the definition of proper discipline changes.
Parenting is the hardest job in the world, and it never stops: 24/7,
year after year. People do the best they can, and hopefully they learn
from the mistakes they make. I never appreciated my parents as much as
when I became one. I realized as never before how much they love me,
and at the same time I came to forgive them of the shortcomings they
had as parents. They did the best they could with what they had, and
sometimes they f*ed up. Me, too. Honesty, consistency, and teaching by
example are the best tools for discipline, and beyond that parenthood
is a constantly changing mixed bag of sizing up myriad situations and
making snap judgements based on what you think is best RIGHT THEN.
Simplistic formulas, broad generalizations, and easy answers are
useless to me.
TJ
slenon
>Do I sence, oh I don't know, JEALOUSY???
No, Raymond, and neither do you sense jealousy.
If you want to run with the adults after the marvelous accomplishment of
graduating high school, then recall your spelling lessons or at least use
your spell check function.
In America, people do have a right to a decent living provided they work for
it. Otherwise, no one owes you an elevated lifestyle.
Like you I deplore the corporate greed that abounds, but don't lay that on
me, boy. I've worked in healthcare at the delivery level all my life and
have little to show for it compared to the Yuppies of your parents's
generation who view BMW's as investments. That was my choice of career
fields so I accept the outcome even if I view my contribution as underpaid.
That's part of being an adult.
As for ghetto kids, starving in poverty, I'll admit that they exist. But
answer me this, how many ghetto dwellers buy CD's every time their favorite
artists issue them? Wouldn't that money be better applied to food and
school materials? It's a matter of personal choice. And they live with the
consequences of that choice.
>I DO know what reality is like, I am volunteering my time in the ghettos of
Philly and I am friends with many kids who volunteered their time in
>Guatemala, where conditions are 100X worse.
Well, Hooray for you. And when your volunteer time is over for the day,
where do you go to sleep? Home to your comfortable middle class dwelling?
You can't pull the ghetto out of poverty. The answer to that problem is
self-improvement, a realization that education is important, and hard work
at the personal level. The same applies to your friends in Guatemala.
Nations have to work as nations to improve their lot. We can't do it. We
shouldn't stop helping but we can't save the rest of the world.
>The quote of purplehake that really set me off was: "They fail to
understand that the world does not owe them a living"
Read for comprehension, boy. That was my statement. You are rapdily
managing to prove my position and show your own level of immaturity.
I'd suggest that rather than going on to college, you might benefit from
some time in the Army or the Peace Corps. You're no where near the adult
you claim to be. College for you, today, would be wasted time. You can
binge drink and work part time without blowing your parents hard-earned
dollars on college.
Raymond Baxter
However, it is apparent you didn't survive the 60s/70s without an an
entirely negative outlook on life. You have got one life to live and one
only. Why would I waste my life with as a gun-toting drone for an
idiot-in-chief like Nixon/Reagan/Carter/Bush Sr./Bush Jr. when I can use my
mind instead of my fists to get somewhere in the "real world?"
I know your type, the grizzled 50-something year-old who thinks that "these
damn kids have it all and aren't even grateful!" Well sir, I am grateful
and I am also quite happy as well. There are 6,000,000,000 different
"realities" in this world and this happens to be mine.
Now go back in the shower and sing "Fortunate Son" to yourself 10 times
over. You'll feel better, trust me.
Ray
"slenon" <sle...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9oCX8.15377$DS.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Raymond Baxter
of bitching is unbelievable!
Ray
"garnet" <bluef...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3D2EDB15...@adelphia.net...
Raymond Baxter
ghetto streets and become successful, well-adjusted adults.
"garnet" <bluef...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3D2EDC82...@adelphia.net...
Sarandipidy
>Dip,
> It is a little deeper than, "Parents are to blame for child development".
>A
>few more people than one's parents, and several experience outside family
>life,
>influence the journey of our youth. The attitude you have is why some kids
>fall
>through the cracks and why many good parents are blamed if their child has
>some
>emotional problems.
well no, i definitely agree with you. once a child has had personal experiences
he is subject to their influence.
Raymond Baxter
bad but it doesn't change a thing. You unfortunately did not spend enough
discovering the huge number of "good kids" that populate every high school.
Instead you ruminated upon the scum and came away with a very distasteful
experience.
"Sarandipidy" <saran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020712091001...@mb-cj.aol.com...
Sarandipidy
>example
definitely very important.
>making snap judgements based on what you think is best RIGHT THEN.
definitely.
Raymond Baxter
rage in a child.
"Sarandipidy" <saran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020711201220...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> >Spankings do very little,
>
> i wouldnt say that. i would say there were ways that were more effective
for
> the future and such, but spankings *do* work just as well as any other
stern
> discipline.
Sarandipidy
guy, and they both deal with children. i've got his book but these are the ones
posted on the 'net. i saw him a couple nights ago and he's an excellent
performer, probably one of the most accessible too.
Objection overruled, or You can always go to law school if things don’t work
out
He says the problem with teachers is, “What’s a kid going to learn
from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?”
He reminds the other dinner guests that it’s true what they say about
teachers:
Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.
I decide to bite my tongue instead of his
and resist the temptation to remind the dinner guests
that it’s also true what they say about lawyers.
Because we’re eating, after all, and this is polite company.
“I mean, you’re a teacher, Taylor,” he says.
“Be honest. What do you make?”
And I wish he hadn’t done that
(asked me to be honest)
because, you see, I have a policy
about honesty and ass-kicking:
if you ask for it, I have to let you have it.
You want to know what I make?
I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor
and an A- feel like a slap in the face.
How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best.
I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall
in absolute silence. No, you may not work in groups.
No, you may not ask a question.
Why won’t I let you get a drink of water?
Because you’re not thirsty, you’re bored, that’s why.
I make parents tremble in fear when I call home:
I hope I haven’t called at a bad time,
I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today.
Billy said, “Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don’t you?”
And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen.
I make parents see their children for who they are
and what they can be.
You want to know what I make?
I make kids wonder,
I make them question.
I make them criticize.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them write.
I make them read, read, read.
I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely
beautiful
over and over and over again until they will never misspell
either one of those words again.
I make them show all their work in math.
And hide it on their final drafts in English.
I make them understand that if you got this (brains)
then you follow this (heart) and if someone ever tries to judge you
by what you make, you give them this (the finger).
Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true:
I make a goddamn difference! What about you?
Like Lilly Like Wilson
I’m writing the poem that will change the world,
and it’s Lilly Wilson at my office door.
Lilly Wilson, the recovering like addict,
the worst I’ve ever seen.
So, like, bad the whole eighth grade
started calling her Like Lilly Like Wilson Like.
Until I declared my classroom a Like-Free Zone,
and she could not speak for days.
But when she finally did, it was to say,
Mr. Mali, this is . . . so hard.
Now I have to think before I . . . say anything.
Imagine that, Lilly.
It’s for your own good.
Even if you don’t like . . .
it.
I’m writing the poem that will change the world,
and it’s Lilly Wilson at my office door.
Lilly is writing a research paper for me
about how homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed
to adopt children.
I’m writing the poem that will change the world,
and it’s Like Lilly Like Wilson at my office door.
She’s having trouble finding sources,
which is to say, ones that back her up.
They all argue in favor of what I thought I was against.
And it took four years of college,
three years of graduate school,
and every incidental teaching experience I have ever had
to let out only,
Well, that’s a real interesting problem, Lilly.
But what do you propose to do about it?
That’s what I want to know.
And the eighth-grade mind is a beautiful thing;
Like a new-born baby’s face, you can often see it
change before your very eyes.
I can’t believe I’m saying this, Mr. Mali,
but I think I’d like to switch sides.
And I want to tell her to do more than just believe it,
but to enjoy it!
That changing your mind is one of the best ways
of finding out whether or not you still have one.
Or even that minds are like parachutes,
that it doesn’t matter what you pack
them with so long as they open
at the right time.
O God, Lilly, I want to say
you make me feel like a teacher,
and who could ask to feel more than that?
I want to say all this but manage only,
Lilly, I am like so impressed with you!
So I finally taught somebody something,
namely, how to change her mind.
And learned in the process that if I ever change the world
it’s going to be one eighth grader at a time.
Dave
: slenon wrote:
For teaching kids not to go into the street, what worked great for my kids
was -- taking them inside immediately (they wanted to play outside so it was a
good consequence) and then explaining when they were old enough to comprehend
the possible bad "natural" consequence of being hit by a car. I'd also pick
them up and show them how an adult can see better (And be seen by car divers)
It took more work on my part, but it was worth it in the end. So, not
everyone can or should follow my methods, but I'm just pointing out one viable
alternative in this one situation and how it applied to my personal situation.
There are ways to set limits without spanking or swattting, even with
preverbal children. Remember that children model behavior, no matter what we
say. If we set appropriate boundaries and enforce them in a firm but loving
manner, while at the same time helping the children to feel accepted, then
that's a recipe for kids with compassion and ability to make good choices
later in life.
Instant gratification for the parents (i.e. spanking apparently stopping an
undesireable behavoir without really addressing the issue) is not the
guideline I use when considering how to discipline my kids.
--
Colette
slenon
undesireable behavoir without really addressing the issue) is not the
Here's hoping your children don't become another statistic, admitted to an
ER, when their desire to do something that was harmful to them overcame your
logic and compassion. I can't begin to tell you how many children I have
seen in that situation.
slenon
> Why would I waste my life with as a gun-toting drone for an idiot-in-chief
like Nixon/Reagan/Carter/Bush Sr./Bush Jr. when I can use my
>mind instead of my fists to get somewhere in the "real world?"
Because there are far too many people in the rest of the world who are
willing to kill you for what you have or what you represent. And reason,
compassion, understanding, political correctness, and multicultural
awareness don't stop, bullets, bombs, or aircraft aimed at buildings full of
civilians using their "minds instead of fists." But then, you aren't really
likely to be aware of that at the advanced age of 18. If you remain lucky,
that fact will never be shoved down your throat by someone who feels the
"justice" of his cause exceeds your "right to life."
Did you omit Johnson, Ford, and Clinton from your list of presidents for a
reason or merely not recall that they also used force of arms for various
purposes?
>I know your type, the grizzled 50-something year-old who thinks that "these
damn kids have it all and aren't even grateful!"
I'd suggest you hit my website and review what is there before you make to
many more assumptions about my history or outlook.
As for fighting for you, think again. The only thing any soldier fights for
is to get home intact. Ideals and ideologies don't hold up well under fire.
But that doesn't mean some causes aren't worth the cost. You seem to have
my war confused with that of my father. Read a little more history. Your
attempt at sarcasm falls a bit short.
Sarandipidy
no. it was an expensive catholic school with lots of nice kids.
>You unfortunately did not spend enough
>discovering the huge number of "good kids" that populate every high school.
>Instead you ruminated upon the scum and came away with a very distasteful
>experience.
or maybe i'm proving to you that *your* experience doesn't prove anything, and
neither does mine. i know plenty of nice people and plenty of empty people but
again, were we discussing children or teenagers?
you jump on top of anyone who disagrees with you. that's not the way to discuss
something.
Sarandipidy
>Don't even bother with that dip shit, she is not the brightest of posters.
>The
>comment you quoted sums up her interpretation of our youth and displays her
>ignorance of our culture.
heh. well besides the fact that this comment is meaningless judged by your
behavior on the terrapin board, i wasn't talking about teens.
JC Martin
news:20020711201220...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> >Spankings do very little,
>
> i wouldnt say that. i would say there were ways that were more effective
for
> the future and such, but spankings *do* work just as well as any other
stern
> discipline.
Actually, no they don't. Provide a study which says differently. Spankings
come from lazy parents. That's the reality. Effective communication and
sticking to a set of principles is lacking in such people.
-JC
Roxanne McDaniel
"cedar" <dogh...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3d2eee43...@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...
Roxanne McDaniel
"Raymond Baxter" <rba...@dejazzd.com> wrote in message
news:2XCX8.33135$Q43.9...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> Thank you. It seems that optimism is frowned upon on this board. The
level
> of bitching is unbelievable!
>
> Ray
It's because most of us here are old and stuck in our ways.
Raymond Baxter
I wish. Thats part of the beauty of America: FREEDOM, LIBERTY. You are
stuck in your ways, principals, outlooks, etc. so its no use in continuing
this arguement.
Peace,
Ray
"slenon" <sle...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ryDX8.19004$XH.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
cedar
If not Old & In The Way!
Raymond Baxter
"Raymond Baxter" <rba...@dejazzd.com> wrote in message
news:V3GX8.33179$Q43.9...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Garry Bryan
: Hey now,
: There's nothing magic about hitting your kids that makes them behave.
: There _is_ something weird about being physically hit that pisses
: people off and makes you want to get back at Dad, instead of doing
: what what he wants. If that's what you want from your kids, go to it.
: What is magic is consistent discipline. I see lots of parents
: telling their kids "Quit it, or I'll knock your head off" seven or
: eight times before they step in. The kids learn that they can
: misbehave six or seven times, and Mom won't really do what she says.
: Most folks who rant and rave about spanking are totally right that
: kids need discipline, they just don't have a clue of what else they
: can do to set limits on their kids
I hate watching this behavior in parents. I usually mention that if you want
the child to believe you, once should be enough. I always told my children they
had the choice to stop the behavior or suffer the punishment. They were never
punished for doing something bad the first time, but were explained to why
that was forbidden. The second time they got punished and especially if they
lied about it. Lying was the penultimate transgression. I could trust my child
to tell me who ate the bottle of aspirin. They knew that telling the truth about
something they did "new" didn't mean punishment.
Garry
weatherbee
So, what was the ultimate transgression?
Burner Ben
news:120720022101270033%wx...@attbi.com...
> Garry Bryan <ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lying was the penultimate transgression.
>
> So, what was the ultimate transgression?
Raiding the cookie jar?
;-)
cedar
Watering Dad's scotch?
Timothy Lynch
} how many ghetto dwellers buy CD's every time their favorite
} artists issue them?
Almost none. Lower class black kids, for example, as any hip hop
businessperson will tell you, get the vast majority of their
music off the radio and from bootleg discs and tapes from flea
markets, as well as taping each other's mixes. (Hence the aim at
the middle class white kid market, even if it is through building
street cred in the hood, first.)
} As for ghetto kids, starving in poverty, I'll admit that they
} exist.
Nice of you to acknowledge the existence of poverty in America.
Now, how 'bout an exploration of WHY?
Tim
tly...@socrates.berkeley.edu
Jperdue4
its important to remember that my job as a parent isnt to be my childs best
friend....or friend at all really...its my job to PARENT them.....we can be
friends when they grow up into adults.....
Jperdue4
"keepin it real"....?....."i dont care bout that shit MAN!!.....im keepin it
REEEEEAL!"....."Yeah.....real DUMB!!".....
Chris Rock
Garry Bryan
: So, what was the ultimate transgression?
Getting away with it. . .:) perhaps ultimate would have been fine. . .
Garry
Garry Bryan
:>On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:48:36 GMT, "Burner Ben"
I have a good relationship with my kids now. . .they know I am there to help
them when they need it and praise them when they don't. . .my 17yo son was
at High Sierra with us and handled it just fine, other than drinking the 7UP
I was saving to mix a drink with. . .:)
Garry
Jperdue4
im really lookin forward to that kind of stuff with my girls.....wooho!...i
cant wait...Ella Monet' turned 4 on july 3rd and Maizy Grace will be 7 on
august 9th....im 37....:/
Sherlock
Oh yeah, I spanked, once in anger, never after six years old. One lovely
daughter was a remarkably trouble free child and teen. Made me nervous
because she never got into trouble.
My other lovely daughter was hell on wheels in her teens. Real trouble,
almost didn't graduate, private school, cops and courtrooms. She's coming
along fine now and seems more mature than her sister.
Funny thing, trouble girl was less likely to be held responsible for
transgressions than her older sister because when they got in trouble
together the older sister was the one who "should have known better" and the
one who "should have been looking after her sister" (they are fourteen
months apart).
Well, they are both fine young women and I am quite proud.
I have learned that there are probably 10,000 wrong ways to raise a child
and perhaps only one right one. Who knows?
My sister never spanked her second child, choosing "time out" instead.
Frankly, he was one of the biggest brats on the planet.
What I do know is that a parent must never threaten something and not follow
through. My younger daughter used to throw tantrums in stores if she
couldn't get something she wanted. She would scream until she turned blue.
When she was with me, I would threaten to leave the store immediately if she
started that nonsense and I would. There were several times when we would
walk right out of the grocery store leavind a cart with stuff in it right in
the aisle. After a few times, she stopped throwing the tantrums when with
me. She knew it got her nowhere.
My ex-wife didn't do this however and my daughter continued to make shopping
hell for her. It got to the point that she wouldn't go with her and would
either wait for me to come home so I could babysit or ask me to do the
shopping.
Sherlock
cst
> "Matt Archer" <march...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6964ea4a.02071...@posting.google.com...
> > Contrary to conventional wisdom, I think hitting one's own child is
> > not only a responsible necessity, but it also will create a more
> > productive society.
>
> Your logic is faulty is the sense that the current lack of discipline in our
> culture does not stem from the lack of spankings. Spankings do very little,
> and sometimes can cease or slow down a child's development. Enough parents
> out there are raising disciplined and loving kids, who *don't* sit in front
> of the TV all day playing Nintendo, to know that that there's no correlation
> between spankings and discipline. Summing up... uninvolved parents cause
> kids to lose focus, not a lack of spankings.
>
> -JC
not a chance, it depends upon the frequency of the spankings, and the force of
the hit
garnet
slenon
>Lower class black kids, for example, as any hip hop businessperson will
tell you, get the vast majority of their
>music off the radio and from bootleg discs and tapes from flea markets, as
well as taping each other's mixes.
Whether they buy them new or pirate them, the fact remains that they still
purchase media and players. Unless, of course, you are inferring that these
kids are all thieves. I wouldn't presume that and doubt you would either.
And that was my point, Tim. No matter what the middle class does, abject
poverty in the U.S. is far better than abject poverty in Sudan, Afghanistan,
or the remainder of the third world.
>Nice of you to acknowledge the existence of poverty in America. Now, how
'bout an exploration of WHY?
Between the two of us, we can fill pages with reasons. We might even
overlap on a few. But, neither you nor I are going to eliminate poverty.
And as we sit discussing it at length and at distance using expensive
computers, we need to be certain we indicate that poverty exists outside the
ghettos and that not all ghetto dwellers are impoverished.
Sarandipidy
>Now, how 'bout an exploration of WHY?
i'll say it again. "when i give food to the poor, they call me a saint. when i
ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
Sarandipidy
>businessperson will tell you, get the vast majority of their
>music off the radio and from bootleg discs and tapes from flea
>markets, as well as taping each other's mixes.
i would think they had a few bootlegs, but get the majority of music from just
listening to each other live. btw, hip hop can be *so good.*
Sarandipidy
>poverty in the U.S. is far better than abject poverty in Sudan, Afghanistan,
>or the remainder of the third world.
>
but it's still abject poverty, no? bob marley lived in one of he worst cases of
"abject poverty" you could imagine, and he still needed music. everyone needs
something to cope. you haven't been there, so i don't think it's fair to judge
why kids with so many problems need something to soothe their minds.
>not all ghetto dwellers are impoverished.
i'm not sure how that's relevant.
Sarandipidy
>come from lazy parents. That's the reality.
but it's not. because you'll have parents that do it three times in a child's
life, and the other 4732743 times they concentrate on other, perhaps harder to
handle, forms of discipline. are you saying three spankings from ages 2-5 rules
out all the hard work a parent has done for 18 years?
Sarandipidy
>cant wait...Ella Monet' turned 4 on july 3rd and Maizy Grace will be 7 on
>august 9th....im 37....:/
>
now that i'm 18 my dad and i can really enjoy bob dylan concerts together (he
first took me when i was 4). we're going to newport folk festival together and
on a cc road trip in mid august. he really doesn't try to police me anymore but
i think the reason is that he knows i'm not going to do anything dangerously
irresponsible (i.e. drink and drive), and it's time to learn how to make my own
decisions anyway. but he's okay with my smoking pot sometimes, in fact on
occasion he asks me to bring him a bowl pack, for reminiscing purposes. that
would be the only thing i do 'wrong' and have really ever done 'wrong' that i'd
be scared of him finding out, but not anymore. so yeah, i guess we're like
friends now.
Sarandipidy
>
>Oh yeah, I spanked, once in anger, never after six years old. One lovely
>daughter was a remarkably trouble free child and teen. Made me nervous
>because she never got into trouble.
>
>My other lovely daughter was hell on wheels in her teens. Real trouble,
>almost didn't graduate, private school, cops and courtrooms. She's coming
>along fine now and seems more mature than her sister.
>
>What I do know is that a parent must never threaten something and not follow
>through. My younger daughter used to throw tantrums in stores if she
>couldn't get something she wanted. She would scream until she turned blue.
>When she was with me, I would threaten to leave the store immediately if she
>started that nonsense and I would. There were several times when we would
>walk right out of the grocery store leavind a cart with stuff in it right in
>the aisle. After a few times, she stopped throwing the tantrums when with
>me. She knew it got her nowhere.
>
exactly. a simple introductory psychology course will teach any parent how to
raise a child. it's all and always a matter of conditioning.
volkfolk
> Do I sence, oh I don't know, JEALOUSY??? Children, including "ghetto
brats"
> are not HORRIBLE! Perhaps their parents are, the system definitely is,
and
> a Republican-infected government that tells the poor to go fuck
themselves,
> the same which sent millions of poor black men to be slaughtered in 'Nam,
is
> pure evil.
You should have your facts straight if you are going to be pointing fingers
at people.
1) JFK and LBJ were the ones who got us into Vietnam. Both Democrats.
2)At the height of the Vietnam war we only had 300,000 troops in Southeast
Asia
3) There were more poor whites in uniform than poor blacks
Histronics and Hyperbole weaken any valid points you might have.
>Don't blame the children, and don't beat the children. It is
> that simple. First, I will take our generation of young people over the
> drug-crazed, authority-hating generation of "flower children" who sold out
> after the music died around '70 and the air was let out of their balloons
> and they became corporate whores who have let us with a shitty economy,
the
> rise of ghettolands, and a rapidly deteriorating environment.
Can you cite some studies that back up any of these claims.
> and guess what? In America, which is ridiculously wealthy, people DO have
a right to
> a decent living at the hands of their more fortunate taxpaying brothers
and
> sisters.
Then they should get a job and try to improve their lot in life. Giving
someone a hand out just makes them think that they ae entitled to another
hand out. "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and
he eats for life"
Welfare is a failed program, because there is no incentive to get off of it.
>No American should be allowed to starve or be forced to sleep in
> the streets at night, EVEN if they are lazy and "no good." They ARE human
> damn it and they are our brothers and sisters!!! And don't give me this cr
ap
> about "you are so lucky, look at reality." I DO know what reality is
like,
> I am volunteering my time in the ghettos of Philly and I am friends with
> many kids who volunteered their time in Guatemala, where conditions are
100X
> worse. I KNOW I am blessed with my comfortable life but I am not ashamed
of
> it. Thats what makes America so great, you don't have to be embarrased by
> your success, but you DO have to share it!
It isn't sharing if it is taken without my consent and I have no say in how
it is spent........
It is theft. So far as people sleeping in the streets, most of those folks
are mentally ill and should be institutionalized. There is plenty of work to
be had in this country and if you want to make money it is there for the
earning
If you really want to help someone get on their feet teach them a trade or a
skill and find them a job, don't give them a shitty little check every month
with no incentive to try and do better
Scot
Garry Bryan
"volkfolk" <volk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:H3XX8.176718$Uu2.39811@sccrnsc03...
It is actuaslly set up to punish you if you try and wean yourself off it. I
CA it is the law to have auto insurance so you might actually get a job, yet
welfare doesn't consider it a necessary expanse. Forces you to be a
criminal. . .they don't allow for reduced childcare costs. . .various other
"inhumane" factors make it easier to stay on welfare then to creep your way
out. . .who makes $15 an hour right out of the gate with no education or
experience?
>
Better yet, allow them a little support while they better themselves. .
.nobody except frauds get walthy off welfare, it goes to pay landlords,
power companies, gas companies, phone companies and agrabusiness. . .
Garry
slenon
>but it's still abject poverty, no? bob marley lived in one of he worst
cases of "abject poverty" you could imagine, and he still needed music.
everyone >needs something to cope. you haven't been there, so i don't think
it's fair to judge why kids with so many problems need something to soothe
their >minds.
What leads you to believe I have not seen poverty in other countries? You
are making an unfounded and incorrect assumption. No one said poor people
shouldn't have music. The point remains that our poor spend more on
non-essentials than many third world families spend on food and housing. Do
your homework.
Mike Boerger
wrote:
>Contrary to conventional wisdom, I think hitting one's own child is
>not only a responsible necessity, but it also will create a more
>productive society. In this day and age of fast food, cable tv and
>plastic surgery, I think its refreshing to know that it's still legal
>to spank one's own child when necessary. Kids yearn for discipline and
>they need to know where the boundaries are. I don't want any form of
>government or government telling me how to raise my child nor how to
>discipline them.
>Now, back to the music....4-14-72, Coppenhagen Denmark: Pigpen in 'Big
>Boss Man' was simply brilliant.
Matt,
There are lots of things that are, and should be, legal, but
are not wise. Positive discipline is much better. Please do not hit
your children.
Mike
Jperdue4
sometimes "hitting" YOUR (operative word here) child IS positive
discipline.....i just wish i could hit other peoples kidzz
sometimes.......:).....
Seth Jackson
>>Spankings
>>come from lazy parents. That's the reality.
>
>but it's not. because you'll have parents that do it three times in a child's
>life, and the other 4732743 times they concentrate on other, perhaps harder to
>handle, forms of discipline. are you saying three spankings from ages 2-5 rules
>out all the hard work a parent has done for 18 years?
In that case, they had three instances of laziness.
- Seth Jackson
Songwriting & Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Sarandipidy
>In that case, they had three instances of laziness.
okay, that works. :)
Timothy Lynch
come from the same people who are so quick to point to economics
textbooks whenever someone complains of high prices (or the
California energy scandal, for ex.). "Supply and demand," they
say.
But even a cursorary glance at those same economics textbooks
reminds us that for the US system, full emeployment is neither
possible nor desireable. Labor functions within supply and
demand, too. Full employment means that labor could dictate its
own price and conditions of service, and prevents econoimic
expansion... something the capitalist system can't allow.
(Remember Wall St.'s "worries," so widely reported on the news,
that unemployment was getting "dangerously low" during the boom
of the 90s?) Therefore, a minumum of 3-6% of the people always
*have* to be unemployed for the American system to work.
Unemployment is further defined as people who have been looking
for a job but can't find one within the couple of months. The
figure doesn't count those people who have given up on finding
work as unemployed; it ignores them. Yet keeping these people
around is essential to capitalism; they form the reserve labor
pool when unemployment gets "too low." Institutionalized racism,
and a culture that grows in reaction to it, makes up part of the
character of this "industrial reserve army."
Now, if these folks who generally can't find a job even when
they want one are cut off even from welfare, what are they going
to do?
get corporations off welfare and then we'll be talking,
Tim
tly...@socrates.berkeley.edu
Sarandipidy
i didn't mean that you haven't seen it- everyone has seen it in some respects.
i meant you have never *been* it. let me apologize in advance if you have ever
been impoverished.
> The point remains that our poor spend more on
>non-essentials
and perhaps music/art is essential. i know it is for me.
JC Martin
news:20020713102457...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> >Spankings
> >come from lazy parents. That's the reality.
>
> but it's not. because you'll have parents that do it three times in a
child's
> life, and the other 4732743 times they concentrate on other, perhaps
harder to
> handle, forms of discipline. are you saying three spankings from ages 2-5
rules
> out all the hard work a parent has done for 18 years?
No I'm not. Don't take it personally. But I am saying that there's no
proof that spankings enhance or enable the development of a child. There
are numerous ways to discipline a child. Physical contact meant to inflict
fear, even done with the right intent, is not beneficial. It may be a
short-term solution for a problem, but long-term provides no positive
impact, especially when done in their earlier years. The worst time to
spank a kid is pre-5.
As far as the rest of their years, in many cases the impact of a spanking
may not even be that negative. The human species is a tough life-form. But
the chance that a negative impact could occur far outweighs the risk.
There's been a lot of research on this, and there's nothing positive shown
to come from a spanking. If you look at cultures or groups of people who
use spanking as a discipline, often those kids are lacking in creativity,
individuality and worse, some remain extremely immature emotionally.
-JC
JC Martin
news:3D2FCCAB...@earthlink.net...
Based on what study or theory?
-JC
slenon
>and perhaps music/art is essential. i know it is for me.
Music, however much our inner beings crave it, is not essential to preserve
life. And it is possible to have music without possession or use of
suitcase sized ghetto blasters, portable CD players, and cars filled with
speakers. Other cultures manage to have music without electronic hardware.
While we have a percentage of our populace that is impoverished, they are
decidedly better off in their poverty than in much of the rest of the world.
There is no pattern of our poor immigrating to other countries for better
living conditions.
As for me, I've spent time with income below poverty levels and wondered how
I was going to feed everyone. I didn't buy any albums or copy any tapes
during that period.
Roxanne McDaniel
"JC Martin" <subs...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:SuhY8.20590$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
slenon
discipline, often those kids are lacking in creativity,
> individuality and worse, some remain extremely immature emotionally.
> -JC
You do realize that you are talking about many generations of humans. Among
these are the men and women who developed modern communications, flight, the
Apollo project, weather satellites, musicians from the first people pounding
sticks on logs through Garcia, Lesh et. al. I believe in that small list
you will find creativity, individuality, and emotional maturity. It is only
within the last two or three generations that non-physical discipline of
children became a pop-psychology item of interest.