Reuben and Charice ?
William Gregory
I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
-kalise-
Dan Nooter
In article <4nbc9k$6...@barad-dur.nas.com>, bil...@nas.com (William
Gregory) wrote:
Oooh baby, I've been meaning to write a tome on this song.....
(Btw, it's either *Reuben and _Cherise_* or *Reubin and _Cerise_*
depending on whether Jerry or R. Hunter is singing it: not "Charice".)
Anyway, here's my interpretation. I apologize for typos, but I'm too tired
to correct them. Have fun......
Looking at all the verses (including the "apocryphal" final verses that
Hunter wrote) the story seems to be a rendering of the Orpheus and
Eurydice story in modern day New Orleans. But I reject this reading. So
does Hunter and Garcia, I believe, in choosing not to sing those final
verses. In addition to the final verses lacking the poetic merit (or
merely the subtle care) of the other verses, I think the end they effect
is unsatisfying. Simply presenting the Orpheus story causes the rich Ruby
Claire thread to fall by the wayside. I think Hunter realized this in
eliminating these verses. (Although to partially answer your question:
yes, she does die in these "apocryphal" verses.)
I feel that Hunter rejects Orpheus and Eurydice as his master text in
order to establish a new one in the Arthurian legend of Tristan and Isolt.
There are many versions (and at least one opera (care to comment, Prof.
Paisley?)) of the Tristan story, and the one I'm familiar with comes
mainly from Tennyson's *Idylls of the King* (although I've researched some
others). The story in a nutshell is that Tristan, and Knight of King
Arthur's Round Table (who is associated, at least in Tennyson, with the
color green) falls in love an Irish woman named Isolt. All's dandy, except
that for some reason Tristan goes to France (probably a war or something:
I don't remember). There, he falls in lust with another woman named Isolt,
whom he marries. Meanwhile, Isolt of Britan is stolen away by some guy
named Mark whom she's forced to marry.
Tristan, who is an excellent harpist, btw, is finally drawn back to
England by love for his true Isolt. He abandons Isolt of Britanny and
returns to Isolt of Britan, who is glad to have him back since she hates
Mark, but who has also heard through the grapevine of Tristan's marriage
to Isolt of Britanny (confused yet?). As Isolt is fixing a meal for
Tristan, Mark comes in the door and cleaves him in two. The end.
So where are the parallels in Reuben and Cherise??? Well, the first is the
character of Reuben, who represents Tristan, is a musician and that the
inlay on his mandolin is jade (green). The counterpart to green is red,
just as Reuben's two counterparts are also red. Cherise (or rather,
Cerise) means cherry-colored; and Ruby is also red (this info on the names
come from the Annoted Dead Lyrics; I forget the name of their author, but
he deserves my acknowledgement and thanks). Not only do both Cherise and
Ruby share a name (at least in meaning) but they both share an identity,
both dressing as Pirouette. Their hair is identically brushed "gently
down". They represent Isolt of Britan and Isolt of Britanny, respectively.
So back to the story... The song begins with Reuben and Cherise dressing
for Carnival (another name for Mardi Gras, which is a big celebration in
New Orleans where the somg takes place). Cherise is dressing as Pirouette
in _White_ which is important since white traditionally represents truth
and purity. She is Reuben's true love. While she is dressing, however, she
receives a prophesy telling her to beware. Reuben assures her that she's
his only love, and that if he lies may he "fall down cold".
Tristan's journey to Brittany is here figured by his going to Carnival.
There, he encounters Ruby Claire, who is dressed as Pirouette in _Red_,
but who is otherwise dressed similarly to Cherise. The color red here
symbolizes lust and desire, which is made more apparent by the fact that
Reuben's song (which before was directed to all of Carnival) is now played
"just for her". In doing so, he seals (or rater "cuts") Cherise's fate as
we'll discuss momentarily. In the next stanza, however, Ruby is rejected.
She "froze and turned to stone/ For the trings played all alone". The
reason they play all alone is that Reuben is not thinking about them or
her; his mind is centered on his true love, Cherise. Hence, Ruby is
abandoned just as Isolt of Britanny is in the Tristan story.
Again, we are met with a touch of the supernatural (which pervades Orfeo
Nego--btw, I didn't mean to utterly reject the Orpheus scheme; I think
it's there, but less important than the Tristan scheme) as Cherise
displaced voice sings from "face of the mandolin". This is probably
Reuben's imagination, for it repeats exactly the question that Cherise
posed to him earlier. (As Reuben's imagination, it also explains why the
strings played all alone, as Reuben was thinking of getting dressed with
Cherise taht afternoon.) Reuben repeats his answer, or perhaps simply
remembers it, but now it has taken on a macabre twist: he has claimed that
there is no one for him but Cherise, but he has just played his song for
Ruby. "If I lie may I fall down cold," he repeats.
As for the final stanza, it sort of takes the Terrapin Station approach
("you decide if he was wise/ The storyteller makes no choice," etc.) by
saying that an "unsung song" must tell of the truth of love. Looking
behind, which clearly comes out of the Orpheus story, is a sign of
doubting and fallure.
There is a wonderful apostrophe here, as we never find out what happens in
the crucial interval between Reuben's song for Ruby and his reunion with
Cherise. Hence, "the end is never told". It is conceiveable that Reuben
has realized his true love for Cherise, and that her lightness in his arms
is a sign of their transcendant love: the coming of dawn over the city of
New Orleans can be seen as the promise of a new and hopeful beginning...
But I don't but this conclusion.
I believe that Cherise does, in fact, die. That her lightness in Reuben's
arms is due to her lack of vitality: as if whatever had given her life its
weight is now fled. Lightness also adds to the surreality of the scene
(and the scene is very surreal: I think that Hunter's scenery in this song
is some of his best work). Although the streets of New Orleans during
Mardi Gras are probably filled with shouts and screams, we get the strange
sensation of calm; the drunken revelry of Mardi Gras is here constrasted
by a strange sobriety. Her hair hanging down is not a positive image, as I
read it, but one of both despair (I mean, how often is ANYTHING hanging
down a positive image? Especially when it comes to love ;) as well as one
of prophesy fulfilled. It brings us back to the first line of the song and
seems to invoke destiny and a cyclical continuity, in the same way that
"fate", the repetition of "painted mandolin" and the invokation of a
"fatal vision" all do.
Fate proves the vicious irony of the song, for although Reuben almost
blasphemously asks to be struck down cold (like Tristan was by Mark) if he
lies, it is his love who is the real victim of his infidelity. Cherise's
"fatal vision" proves correct, and Reuben is forced to walk the streets of
New Orleans 'til dawn (which figuratively means forever) in lamentation
for his infidelity to his true love. Thus, Hunter rewrites Tristan and
Isolt so that his lovers are more obviously the victims of
Tristan/Reuben's infidelity and Tristan/Reuben is left to suffer.
I've thought a while on this, and I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts. Thanks!
Obligatory Grovel: I'm trying to get as many Legion of Mary tapes as are
in circulation (esp. 4/4,6,8,10/75). If you've got HQ boards of these
shows and would like to trade, please email me. Thanks.
Dan =^)
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David M. Paisley
Caught the incredible Dan Nooter's (met him at the New Year's Eve
Phish show at MSG) tome on R & C and his admonition to comment on Tristan
and Isolt. Haverford College should be proud of this young talent. But
since this thread is unlikely to be of much interest to this newsgroup I'll
just throw out this tickler.
There is a substantial body of educated thought that ranks Wagner's
*Tristan und Isolde* the pinnacle of man's artistic achievement, i. e., in
a competition paralleling the Westminster Kennel Club show, if all the
artistic Best of Breeds (painting, sculpture, poetry, novels, symphonic
music, opera, chamber music, architecture, etc.) were paraded, *Tristan und
Isolde* would win Best in Show.
Listen to a recording with Kirsten Flagstad or Birgit Nilsson as
Isolde. Careful, tho -- it could change your life. At the very least, the
Love Duet will make you orgasmic.
Dave
David M. Paisley, U Illinois, 66 Roger Adams Laboratory
600 S. Mathews Avenue Urbana, IL 61810 217/337-1313
Fax 217/337-6200. Internet: dpai...@uiuc.edu
DISCLAIMER: "This product is not to be used in the planning,
construction, maintenance, operation or use of any nuclear
facility nor the flight, navigation or communication of aircraft
or ground support equipment. The author shall not be liable,
in whole or in part, for any claims or damages arising from
such use, including death, bankruptcy or outbreak of war."
(Documentation for the Molecular Visualization program
RasMol V2.5, distributed by Glaxo through its website.)
Allen J. Baum
> I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
> Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
> -kalise-
It's Cherise.
I'd say she doesn't die at the end - she dies considerably before that.
--
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* Allen J. Baum *
* Apple Computer Inc. MS 305-3B *
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Rob Linxweiler
In article <4nbc9k$6...@barad-dur.nas.com>,
William Gregory <bil...@nas.com> wrote:
>I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
>Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
>-kalise-
The original lyrics, as Hunter wrote them, did specifically refer to
the "ghost of Cerise" in Reuben's arms. The ending is a allusion
to the Greek myth of Orpheus and Persephone.
(which I am now going to mangle, please forgive me)
Orpheus visits the realm of Death to rescue his beloved
Persephone. He can bring her back, but only on the
condition that as they cross the river he trust completely
in their love and not look behind to see if she is
following. He succumbs to temptation and looks back.
She is there, but at his glance fades from view.
I'm sorry if I completely mutilated that, but it's strictly from
memory. It's a beautiful story and I'd appreciate correction.
Apparently Hunter's lyrics were too dark (or verbally cumbersome) for
Jerry, who left off the death reference and leaves the ending a bit
more vague.
The truth of love an unsung song must tell
The course of love must follow blind
without a look behind.
Reuben walked the streets of New Orleans 'til dawn
Cerise held lightly in his arms
and her hair hung gently down.
I think in either case, she's a goner.
Rob
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Linxweiler
rob...@mcs.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin Foss
dno...@haverford.edu (Dan Nooter) wrote:
>In article <4nbc9k$6...@barad-dur.nas.com>, bil...@nas.com (William
>
>> I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
>> Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
>
>Hunter wrote) the story seems to be a rendering of the Orpheus and
>Eurydice story in modern day New Orleans. But I reject this reading. So
>does Hunter and Garcia, I believe, in choosing not to sing those final
>verses. In addition to the final verses lacking the poetic merit (or
>merely the subtle care) of the other verses, I think the end they effect
>is unsatisfying. Simply presenting the Orpheus story causes the rich Ruby
>Claire thread to fall by the wayside. I think Hunter realized this in
>eliminating these verses. (Although to partially answer your question:
>yes, she does die in these "apocryphal" verses.)
[I assume for the extra stanzas, that we mean the ones that are after the
asterisks in the version of R & C in the lyrics on his web site.]
In what way does Hunter choose not to sing those final verses? Granted, I
haven't heard a lot of Hunter shows, but didn't he actually sing those
verses? [cf. the live version on Hunter's "Box of Rain"] and it was Jerry
who chose not to sing the songs either for his solo work or the few times
that the Dead played it. Maybe someone who has heard more Hunter shows can
comment on how he did normally sing the lyrics.
I just don't see what you mean by "Hunter realized this in eliminating these
verses" when he seems 1) to make those lyrics readily available and 2) sang
them himself. Also in looking at the version on the web page, the "Jerry"
version is called the 'original ending' which perhaps means that Charon & the
"don't look behind" admonition -- were actually added -later-, and that the
ambigious version was replaced in lieu of a more explicitly Orpheus related
variant.
I will say however that your approach to R & C does help explain the problem
of apparant or imminent infidelity playing such a role in the song and not in
any of the versions of the Orpheus legend. Perhaps, there may be some grounds
to even cast Orpheus and Tristan into the same mythological archetypes --
although without reading a version of Tristan more closely, I'd be hesitant to
argue that.
Anyways, a thought provoking post on my favorite Hunter tune. :) Perhaps, it
is wrong to say that there was just one clearcut inspiration for the tune...
the addition of Tristan and Iseult will give another thing to think about
when I listen to the tune.
-Kevin
------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin A. Foss -------------------- io2...@maine.maine.edu
------------------------------------------------------------
jsbr...@gmail.com
> I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
> Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
No. My interpretation of this story is Charice is symbolic of Ruben's love for music; And that music is his true love. He attempts to play his music for the love of Ruby but in the end departs her and walks away with his mandolin under his arm.
SplinteredSunlight
James Pablos
> No. My interpretation of this story is Charice is symbolic of Ruben's love for music; And that music is his true love. He attempts to play his music for the love of Ruby but in the end departs her and walks away with his mandolin under his arm.
bmoore
http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/reub.html
Ahoy old Ferryman
Riverboat of Charron ride
Though alive, take Reuben to the other side
For his sweet Cerise has died
Just Kidding
wrote:
partners.
the Felonious Kidd
> > No. My interpretation of this story is Charice is symbolic of Ruben's love for music; And that music is his true love. He attempts to play his music for the love of Ruby but in the end departs her and walks away with his mandolin under his arm.
>
> Uh, I always thought Charice was Rueben's sister. Am I wrong?
James Pablos
Little known fact: Charice had very long arms, some folks said she had the "wingspan of a nuthatch".
Just Kidding
Edwin Hurwitz
dianf...@gmail.com
> I have a running bet that maybe you guys could settle for me. Does
> Charice die in the end of the song "Reuben and Charice"? Thanks!
> -kalise-
And thanks for your lesson!
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