Announcement from Dark Star Orchestra
marcman
Thank you for joining us and being a part of this continuing, long
strange trip these past 12 years. Your support and excitement for the
music has kept us going strong for over 1700 shows. Throughout the
years, we've had transitions both difficult and uplifting, yet the
positive energy of our fan base has continued to propel our mission
onward for performing this important music and for keeping this
vibrant scene alive.
That said, we, as a band are entering another chapter in this story.
Dark Star Orchestra's lead guitarist and one of its founding members,
John Kadlecik, has decided to resign from DSO. John's last show with
us will be on Dec 5 in Buffalo. DSO is supportive of John's choice and
we wish him the very best.
Dark Star Orchestra will continue to bring you this music at its
highest level. In our 12 year history we have gone through three
drummers, three keyboard players, three bass players and numerous
rhythm guitarists and we have always managed to keep improving the
sound and the experience. We will be taking on a new player with his
own talents and energy and turn yet another chapter in DSO history.
Veteran guitarist Jeff Mattson, of the Zen Tricksters and currently w
Donna Jean Godchaux Band, will be joining us this week, on the New
Year's Run, Jam Cruise, and for our upcoming Winter Tour that begins
in February. We assure you all the things you love about the Dark Star
Orchestra experience will continue and we ask for your patience,
friendship and positive energy as we keep truckin' on...
Dark Star Orchestra
marcman
> on the road.
>
I also wish him nothing but the best. And not to take anything away
from JK, DSO adding Jeff Mattson isn't exactly a horrible thing. I
grew up on Mattson during his Volunteers days and then of course with
the ZT.
Check this vid from 5/30/87 at my old stomping grounds at the Right
Track Inn in Freeport, NY on Long Island. Spent *many* a Saturday
night in that place as a youngin' in between dead tour dates. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25bJK6BuK_E
> --
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/- Hide quoted text -
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> - Show quoted text -
marcman
Zen Tricksters (formerly the Volunteers) - Jeff Mattson on lead
guitar, Rob Barraco on keys . . .
Mission in the Rain - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9RQpine7pI
And Eyes - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O81K-gyhdJs
And Jack Straw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFBpyU2zQo
And Help>Slip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX2_BmPpEFE
And Crazy Fingers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGPVkDa6fNc
And Deep Elem - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8JHa-L8_io
>
>
> > --
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
3jane.
> Donna Jean Godchaux Band, will be joining us this week, on the New
> Year's Run, Jam Cruise, and for our upcoming Winter Tour that begins
> in February. We assure you all the things you love about the Dark Star
> Orchestra experience will continue and we ask for your patience,
> friendship and positive energy as we keep truckin' on...
I saw them Friday night at 9:30 and they just killed it, the show was
6/27/76 Chicago Auditorium plus 3 or 4 encores. Good stuff...
Sweetbac
How quiant.
marcman
> Battle of the Grateful Dead cover bands.
> How quiant.
There's no battle, everybody's friendly.
Except you, I guess . . .
Sweetbac
"marcman" <marcman...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e0b24dcd-6192-4dc0...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> There's no battle, everybody's friendly.
> Except you, I guess . . .
It's amazing.....grown men playing dress up Jerry.
kpn...@yahoo.com
> "marcman" <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I saw the ZT way back several years ago... maybe 10? Played some
originals and covers, not the same approach as the DSO.
That being said, what do you think of Zappa Plays Zappa? I saw them
last year and thought the show was pretty good. However, at the same
time, it was a weird reverential solemn recreation of the original. I
never saw Frank. It would be nice if Deez would pull some of his stuff
in; maybe write new material... oh, wait, then no one would come to
the show.
Kurt
marcman
For that matter, what about when a symphony orchestra "covers"
Beethoven or Mozart?
octoad
***********************************************************
Ok, I just clicked some of these and this new DSO guy is horrible when it
comes to the singing. His voice is weak and just pales in comparison to the
Kadlicek sound, which is almost exactly like Jerry. Plus I don't dig the
beard and the glasses and the black t-shirt. The dude's a hack.
But hey, I suppose this means the greatest living Jerry will now get to play
a lot more with the other living members of the nostalgia act known
variously as Further or The Dead.
Cool. Just keep the lawn seats under $50.
O
marcman
> "marcman" <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> Ok, I just clicked some of these and this new DSO guy is horrible when it
> comes to the singing.
Wow, it's just amazing how two people can listen to the same thing and
hear something completely different from each other! That's a good
ting, imo, by the way. And in fairness, these links are mostly from
15-20 years ago, so this is Jeff then, not now. I thought he sounded
pretty damned good on If I Had the World to Give . . .
> His voice is weak and just pales in comparison to the
> Kadlicek sound, which is almost exactly like Jerry. Plus I don't dig the
> beard and the glasses and the black t-shirt. The dude's a hack.
>
LOL, maybe we can get him to get contacts . . .
> But hey, I suppose this means the greatest living Jerry will now get to play
> a lot more with the other living members of the nostalgia act known
> variously as Further or The Dead.
>
> Cool. Just keep the lawn seats under $50.
>
> O- Hide quoted text -
Rick
will be 2 of the final shows. I will miss John as there are many
great guitar players, but he has Jerry's singing voice down.
AirtimeJunkie
> �I'll be seeing them in Burlington, VT �12/1 and 12/2, looks like this
> will be 2 of the final shows. �I will miss John as there are many
> great guitar players, but he has Jerry's singing voice down.
I posted this on DSO's forum:
While I am not surprised that JK is bailing from DSO, I am quite
saddened to say the least. DSO was *the closest* thing to experiencing
a live Grateful Dead show. As a veteran of 96 Grateful Dead shows, I
always looked forward to DSO when they played in the bay area and I
have seen them at least 25 times over the years. I wasn't impressed
with Furthur in Oakland by any means, and JK will be missed greatly by
DSO fans everywhere. Bobby and Phil's bands have pretty much sucked
since Jerry died, and I tried to get into them, I really did, but I
never could. It makes one wonder if Phil & Bobby are trying to get JK
out of the DSO spotlight. That's too bad for everyone else in DSO...I
totally feel for them, and I feel for others like me who will miss the
closest thing to the original Grateful Dead sound. Once in a while you
can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it
right. I suppose it is time to start looking again. Regardless of what
some others might think, to me, this is truly disappointing.
Good luck DSO, and good luck JK! Thanks for all the good times!
Kevin
AirtimeJunkie
> Battle of the Grateful Dead cover bands.
> How quiant.
lol.
Zen Ben
Beethoven or Mozart?
Classical music is written out note for note music and played in that
manner. Grateful Dead music isn't meant to be played that way.
Zen Lucky Ben
Lfh
Well, true, but it isn't played that way by anyone I've ever heard,
including DSO. They may do setlists, but they've never done the note
for note thing.
Fred
marcman
Yeah, I guess my example was weak in that perhaps what Beethoven and
Mozart did was more about writing than playing?
marcman
HRYK, they may play parts of the songs note for note but the jams were/
are never note for note to the original.
JimK
wrote:
I'm not even sure how you would go about playing the Dead jams note
for note. What would you do, transcribe the show and rehearse it
before playing it?
JimK
3jane.
> for note. What would you do, transcribe the show and rehearse it
> before playing it?
Yikes, if there's one thing that (in theory) would make Garcia turn
over in his grave...
Brad Greer
The shows that have tape splices in mid-jam are especially tough.
JimK
wrote:
Hmm.....has there ever been a "best tape splice" thread??
JimK
3jane.
> >>for note. What would you do, transcribe the show and rehearse it
> >>before playing it?
>
> >The shows that have tape splices in mid-jam are especially tough.
>
> Hmm.....has there ever been a "best tape splice" thread??
I think someone should do an album of only tape splices, kind of like
Greyfolded but mellower.
Joe
You don't have to look far. The David Nelson Band is headlining the
upcoming SEVA Benefit in Mill Valley in mid-December.
Joe
Lfh
> It makes one wonder if Phil & Bobby are trying to get JK
> out of the DSO spotlight.
Uh, that's *exactly* the same thought I had. Ok, no it isn't. Sheesh.
Fred
JimK
wrote:
I dunno, man. A lot of those splices are pretty jarring.
JimK
3jane.
Dude, you've found your calling.
Ray
I for one think DSO is taking their mimicking of the Dead thing much
too far.
marcman
I think to date they've taken it as far as it's let them.
It's also my observation that most folks that dismiss DSO take DSO
much more seriously than DSO takes themselves.
Ray
I've never been a DSO (or any cover band) fan, but:
you seem to have missed my joke here, which I admit was perhaps on the
too-subtle side.
volkfolk
>
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosepetal236/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
The really odd thing about JK joining Phil and Bobby is that back when
Phil was trying out all the different players before settling into the
Warren/Jimmy/Barraco/Molo configuration, he reject Matson as sounding
too much like Garcia (which IMO is true-Matson's got the Jerry thing
down, but doesn't have much beyond that)
Scot
marcman
Ohhhh, I get it, they "mimick" so well that its taken their Jerry
guitar guy all the way to the Dead itself!. Kinda like a "not" joke,
you know from Borat . . . (probably another horrible analogy, I need
to take an online course in analogies aparantly . . .)
Hey guess what, I just found out I got tix from the Phish lotto for
NYE in Miami. Just thought I'd share that, very lucky and very happy!
Ray
> On Nov 18, 1:24 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 10:14 am, marcman <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 18, 1:01 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Dark Star Orchestra's lead guitarist and one of its founding members
> > > > > [is leaving the band].
>
> > > > I for one think DSO is taking their mimicking of the Dead thing much
> > > > too far.
>
> > > I think to date they've taken it as far as it's let them.
>
> > > It's also my observation that most folks that dismiss DSO take DSO
> > > much more seriously than DSO takes themselves.
>
> > I've never been a DSO (or any cover band) fan, but:
>
> > you seem to have missed my joke here, which I admit was perhaps on the
> > too-subtle side.
>
> Ohhhh, I get it, they "mimick" so well that its taken their Jerry
> guitar guy all the way to the Dead itself!
There you go...
> Hey guess what, I just found out I got tix from the Phish lotto for
> NYE in Miami. Just thought I'd share that, very lucky and very happy!
Cool - congrats.
Neil X
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> The really odd thing about JK joining Phil and Bobby is that back when
> Phil was trying out all the different players before settling into the
> Warren/Jimmy/Barraco/Molo configuration, he reject Matson as sounding
> too much like Garcia (which IMO is true-Matson's got the Jerry thing
> down, but doesn't have much beyond that)
It's gotta be primarily about the payday. IT sure can't be about the
interesting music.
Peace,
Neil X.
Ray
> On Nov 18, 10:30 am, marcman <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 1:24 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 18, 10:14 am, marcman <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 18, 1:01 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Dark Star Orchestra's lead guitarist and one of its founding members
> > > > > > [is leaving the band].
>
> > > > > I for one think DSO is taking their mimicking of the Dead thing much
> > > > > too far.
>
> > > > I think to date they've taken it as far as it's let them.
>
> > > > It's also my observation that most folks that dismiss DSO take DSO
> > > > much more seriously than DSO takes themselves.
>
> > > I've never been a DSO (or any cover band) fan, but:
>
> > > you seem to have missed my joke here, which I admit was perhaps on the
> > > too-subtle side.
>
> > Ohhhh, I get it, they "mimick" so well that its taken their Jerry
> > guitar guy all the way to the Dead itself!
>
> There you go...
I read what you wrote there wrong. That interpretation works too
though, assuming that's where their guitarist going.
The intended joke was:
The Dead's "lead guitarist and one of its founding members" "left" the
Dead; DSO is going too far in their mimicking of the Dead by having
their "lead guitarist and one of its founding members" leave their
band too.
Spelling it out in detail like that removes whatever humor may have
been there, but that was the intended - albeit perhaps too subtle -
joke.
devilphish
Marcman's interpretation was much funnier, you shoulda just stuck with
"yeah, that's what I meant".
devilphish
Ray
dOOd take a hit off of a bowl - you are apparently having a bad day.
Neil X
>
> Phil needs someone who can attract people to see his band.
He sells out every damn show he plays on the East Coast, so he clearly
doesn't need Kadlicek to sell tickets. But I'm pretty sure JK works
for pennies on the dollar compared to musicians such as Haynes,
Campbell and Robinson.
Peace,
Neil X.
Neil X
>
> This is a band who can play Grateful Dead music.
The Grateful Dead played music that was organic and alive, not
derivative and hackneyed. I've never heard anything similar to
Grateful Dead music played by John Kadlicek.
> >But I'm pretty sure JK works
> >for pennies on the dollar compared to musicians such as Haynes,
> >Campbell and Robinson.
>
> Except none of those guys has studied Jerry Garcia the way John has.
You misspelled "imitates."
> Who cares about the money?
I agree, money is say overrated as a motivator of the surviving
members of the Grateful Dead. I'm surprised to hear you agree with
that sentiment. It's about time you admitted you were wrong about
them.
Peace,
Neil X.
Lfh
> > The really odd thing about JK joining Phil and Bobby is that back when
> > Phil was trying out all the different players before settling into the
> > Warren/Jimmy/Barraco/Molo configuration, he reject Matson as sounding
> > too much like Garcia (which IMO is true-Matson's got the Jerry thing
> > down, but doesn't have much beyond that)
>
> It's gotta be primarily about the payday. IT sure can't be about the
> interesting music.
I would think that JK would be taking a pay cut to do this, if he's
gonna be staying with Further, as they aren't going to play nearly the
number of shows DSO did.
Playing music that sounds more like the Dead than P&F or Ratdog is
less interesting? Damn, good thing those guys finally got rid of that
stiff, Garcia, and finally got it right after all those years. Too bad
they had to lose the true vision, finally found, and scamper back to
the less intersting, though.
Fred
marcman
> On Nov 18, 1:18 pm, Neil X <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > The really odd thing about JK joining Phil and Bobby is that back when
> > > Phil was trying out all the different players before settling into the
> > > Warren/Jimmy/Barraco/Molo configuration, he reject Matson as sounding
> > > too much like Garcia (which IMO is true-Matson's got the Jerry thing
> > > down, but doesn't have much beyond that)
>
> > It's gotta be primarily about the payday. IT sure can't be about the
> > interesting music.
>
> I would think that JK would be taking a pay cut to do this, if he's
> gonna be staying with Further, as they aren't going to play nearly the
> number of shows DSO did.
>
I'd guess that the "Phil & Bobby Show", as well as most other Phil+
and Bobby+ endeavors, generate more revenue on an annual basis in a
year where there's an effort made to get the tour on, and are much
more lucrative financially in general than DSO. They play less shows
but the tix are exponentially more expensive. I wonder if JK gets a
cut off of the merch.
octoad
"Neil X" <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a6fd0958-fb30-4810...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> I agree, money is say overrated as a motivator of the surviving
> members of the Grateful Dead. I'm surprised to hear you agree with
> that sentiment. It's about time you admitted you were wrong about
> them.
The fact that Bob and Phil, and to lesser extents Mickey and Billy, play
music as many nights as they do every year while aging into their 60's seems
to me to be more a result of their love for playing music rather than their
love of money. I have no doubt that they enjoy the money and want to make
all that they can while playing live music, but they wouldn't maintain the
schedules they do if they didn't enjoy what they were doing.
They don't need JK to make money, they made boatloads before he came along.
They chose him because they miss Garcia's playing, JK plays and sings like
Garcia, and they enjoy playing with a young guy who sounds like Garcia. Its
rejuvenating for old geezers to try to recreate their pasts. Its nostalgic
and new at the same time. After all the side projects and all the twists
and variations, all the combinations and permutations, all the
rearrangements and changes, they're currently down with playing some regular
good old Grateful Dead music in the style in which it was originally
conceived and performed. Good for them, and as far as I'm concerned, good
for the heads too.
A lot of the side projects and variations were worthwhile and enjoyable, but
these ears always preferred the Grateful Dead. At least for now the boys
are preferring to play that way with a guy who can pull it off with ease,
style, and class.
You either like it or you don't; I most certainly do.
O
Lfh
> > I would think that JK would be taking a pay cut to do this, if he's
> > gonna be staying with Further, as they aren't going to play nearly the
> > number of shows DSO did.
>
> I'd guess that the "Phil & Bobby Show", as well as most other Phil+
> and Bobby+ endeavors, generate more revenue on an annual basis in a
> year where there's an effort made to get the tour on, and are much
> more lucrative financially in general than DSO. They play less shows
> but the tix are exponentially more expensive.
I don't know what the ticket prices are for either, but I'm sure it
ain't that extreme. But last time I saw DSO at the Fillmore a couple
of years ago, it was way over packed, and they were routinely selling
out three night runs there. And no matter how many shows F does, it
ain't gonna come close to the number of shows DSO does in a year, and
while Neil may be overstating the pennies on the dollar thing, K's
cut is gonna be way less than Phil or Bob's, as I'm sure is true for
all the other players named. Maybe Kimock could shed some light on
this.
Fred
marcman
marcman
> On Nov 19, 10:11 am, marcman <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I would think that JK would be taking a pay cut to do this, if he's
> > > gonna be staying with Further, as they aren't going to play nearly the
> > > number of shows DSO did.
>
> > I'd guess that the "Phil & Bobby Show", as well as most other Phil+
> > and Bobby+ endeavors, generate more revenue on an annual basis in a
> > year where there's an effort made to get the tour on, and are much
> > more lucrative financially in general than DSO. They play less shows
> > but the tix are exponentially more expensive.
>
> I don't know what the ticket prices are for either,
Neither do I, but this past summer's The Dead tour was the topic of
many a discussion about outrageously high ticket prices. Phil and
Bobby together however command that kind of pricing though. OTOH, DSO
tix are between 20-30 a pop.
> but I'm sure it
> ain't that extreme.
Did you think ticket prices for this summer's The Dead tour were
extreme?
> But last time I saw DSO at the Fillmore a couple
> of years ago, it was way over packed, and they were routinely selling
> out three night runs there.
Yup, they do really well in the NYC area, and anytime I've seen them
down here in FL the place is usually packed - but not always sold out,
but then again thats a South Florida thing and not necessarily a DSO
thing. Caught a three night run at the Higher Gorund in Burlington, ok
so the third night was NYE, but all three shows were over packed.
These venues are not arenas though.
> And no matter how many shows F does, it
> ain't gonna come close to the number of shows DSO does in a year, and
> while Neil may be overstating the pennies on the dollar thing, K's
> cut is gonna be way less than Phil or Bob's, as I'm sure is true for
> all the other players named.
Of course their cuts are less, I was wondering if JK's cut was even
less then the other guys' lesser cuts.
Neil X
>
> > > The really odd thing about JK joining Phil and Bobby is that back when
> > > Phil was trying out all the different players before settling into the
> > > Warren/Jimmy/Barraco/Molo configuration, he reject Matson as sounding
> > > too much like Garcia (which IMO is true-Matson's got the Jerry thing
> > > down, but doesn't have much beyond that)
>
> > It's gotta be primarily about the payday. IT sure can't be about the
> > interesting music.
>
> I would think that JK would be taking a pay cut to do this, if he's
> gonna be staying with Further, as they aren't going to play nearly the
> number of shows DSO did.
Well, there are definitely fewer shows, but the cost for the Further
shows is nearly $70 on the East Coast. I didn't think DSO ever got
more than $30?? Could be wrong. It will certainly be a higher pay
scale, hourly.
> Playing music that sounds more like the Dead than P&F or Ratdog is
> less interesting?
Yes, imitating the old days is way less interesting that trying to
make something new, IMO.
> Damn, good thing those guys finally got rid of that
> stiff, Garcia, and finally got it right after all those years.
Don't be a moron.
> Too bad they had to lose the true vision, finally found, and scamper back to
> the less intersting, though.
Indeed, too bad Phil stopped trying to creat something novel, and
scampered back to nostalgia. Ratdog, no loss there.
Peace,
Neil X.
Lfh
> > Playing music that sounds more like the Dead than P&F or Ratdog is
> > less interesting?
>
> Yes, imitating the old days is way less interesting that trying to
> make something new, IMO.
Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
be novel, but that's about all.
These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
I would bet that you, probably the staunchest supporter of Philco
here, have never gone as far as to assert that anything P&F did was
superior to the original take the Dead gave it, so if you, with your
insistence on new, new, new can't find anything that is better than
the original approach, why should it be such a crime that they guys
playing it would lean that way after ten plus years of doing the
square peg/round hole route?
Fred
Ray
> "Neil X" <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a6fd0958-fb30-4810...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I agree, money is say overrated as a motivator of the surviving
> > members of the Grateful Dead. I'm surprised to hear you agree with
> > that sentiment. It's about time you admitted you were wrong about
> > them.
>
> The fact that Bob and Phil, and to lesser extents Mickey and Billy, play
> music as many nights as they do every year while aging into their 60's seems
> to me to be more a result of their love for playing music rather than their
> love of money.
Yup. Without love in that dream it'd never still come true.
> They don't need JK to make money, they made boatloads before he came along.
> They chose him because they miss Garcia's playing, JK plays and sings like
> Garcia, and they enjoy playing with a young guy who sounds like Garcia. Its
> rejuvenating for old geezers to try to recreate their pasts. Its nostalgic
> and new at the same time. After all the side projects and all the twists
> and variations, all the combinations and permutations, all the
> rearrangements and changes, they're currently down with playing some regular
> good old Grateful Dead music in the style in which it was originally
> conceived and performed. Good for them, and as far as I'm concerned, good
> for the heads too.
I'm curious to see this configuration live. Like Neil a have a general
aversion to artistic imitators, but as the Dead have opted to bring
the DSO guy aboard their bus at least for now I figure the guy may
have something other than complete imitation going on. In any event
I'll check it out with an open mind.
Neil X
I'm going down to CT to see them in December. Truly, it's Jay Lane
that worries me more than Kadlicek. But with a second drummer, maybe
it will be OK.
Peace,
Neil X.
Ray
Wow - Jay Lane?!? I'm with you on that one.
(I guess I've been out of the Dead loop of late.)
Neil X
>
> Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
> which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
> figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
> the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
> be novel, but that's about all.
>
> These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
> music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
> them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
level wanes immediately.
> Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
> the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
> and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
> they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
> hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone. The
organic creativity of the old GD is still alive in Phil's band when he
plays. It's even present in the nuDead. But in what I've heard of
Further, it ain't really there. And it's never been present in any
DSO I've ever heard.
> I would bet that you, probably the staunchest supporter of Philco
> here, have never gone as far as to assert that anything P&F did was
> superior to the original take the Dead gave it,
Jeez, have you heard the different versions of songs like The Golden
Road that Phil has played? They did way more with that song than the
GD ever did. And they also did way more with Unbroken Chain than the
GD ever managed. As for Viola Lee, I'd far rather hear Phil play that
than the GD play about half of their catalog.
> so if you, with your
> insistence on new, new, new can't find anything that is better than
> the original approach, why should it be such a crime that they guys
> playing it would lean that way after ten plus years of doing the
> square peg/round hole route?
Many Phil shows I have seen are much better than some of the GD shows
I saw. But that's not the point. Whether or not Phil and Friends is
better than the GD, Jerry ain't walking onto that stage, so there's
really no sense in comparing. What Phil can still do, when he
chooses, is make the music come alive in a manner not unlike what the
GD could do. I have my doubts that he can do that in a band with
Kadlicek and Jay Lane. Certainly nothing I've heard so far is worth
multiple listens. The entire idea of trying to recreate the old
versus make something new, it's the antithesis of what the GD were
about. So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
Peace,
Neil x.
3jane.
> I saw. But that's not the point. Whether or not Phil and Friends is
> better than the GD, Jerry ain't walking onto that stage, so there's
> really no sense in comparing. What Phil can still do, when he
> chooses, is make the music come alive in a manner not unlike what the
> GD could do. I have my doubts that he can do that in a band with
> Kadlicek and Jay Lane. Certainly nothing I've heard so far is worth
> multiple listens. The entire idea of trying to recreate the old
> versus make something new, it's the antithesis of what the GD were
> about. So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
If I was going to see them, which sadly I am not, I would have high
hopes.
Neil X
Yeah, scary to contemplate. But I've heard good things about Joe
Russo, the other drummer. So maybe it will be OK.
Peace,
Neil X.
Ken Fortenberry
> Neil X wrote:
>> ... So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
>
> If I was going to see them, which sadly I am not, I would have high
> hopes.
I don't understand why anyone would even go to a show if they
didn't have high hopes. I mean, even when I was single and paid
good money to see music I knew I wouldn't like I had high hopes
of getting laid at least.
I'm going to see them on the 30th and 31st of December and I have
high hopes for both nights. I'm really looking forward to it.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Neil X
Well, I don't have to hope that I'll be high, but I digress.
Peace,
Neil X.
Ray
Russo too - interesting. I've seen Russo many times and yeah he's
good.
marcman
wrote:
> I mean, even when I was single and paid
> good money to see music I knew I wouldn't like I had high hopes
> of getting laid at least.
>
HA! I guess the joke's on me with this one as I just did a spit take
with some diet sunkist orange soda. When I read that little nugget it
not only came out of my mouth, but out of my nose too. Had to get the
windex out to clean off the monitor. AND my nose is still somewhat
irritated.
The moral of the story is I guess we all need to maintain hope no
matter how dire the circumstances . . .
>
> --
> Ken Fortenberry
Neil X
> > Neil X wrote:
> >> ... So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
>
> > If I was going to see them, which sadly I am not, I would have high
> > hopes.
>
> I don't understand why anyone would even go to a show if they
> didn't have high hopes.
Curiosity. I really enjoy Phil's playing, and I'm damn curious as to
why he chose to be a part of this. It's worth it to me, just in case
I'm completely wrong and the band is more interesting than I suspect.
Hell, it's a night out with friends, even if the music isn't good I'll
have a blast partying.
peace,
Neil X.
Ray
That's why I continued to see Phish even though I had seen them a few
times and they didn't do it for me - it was a night or weekend out
with friends and so I had a blast partying anyway.
Which made it extra-cool, and a fun surprise, when Phish finally did
blow me away around my 10th show or so (the '98 Vegas Halloween
shows).
Lfh
> > Fred wrote:
>
> > Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
> > which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
> > figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
> > the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
> > be novel, but that's about all.
>
> > These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
> > music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
> > them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
>
> The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
> of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
> remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
> do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
> with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
> level wanes immediately.
This baffles me. What is making you think they aren't going to
improvise? Somehow, you seem to have taken the idea that by bringing
in a guy who speaks GD dialect better than the other folks they've
fielded that they are now going to suddenly up and stop improvising.
This doesn't at all follow. What are you expecting them to do, start
rehearsing a set show or something?
> > Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
> > the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
> > and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
> > they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
> > hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
>
> I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
> although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
> great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
> Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
> for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
> something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone.
Again, all they are doing is bringing in a guy who speaks the dialect
better than the others. Is that alone enough to warrant "attempting to
recreate what is long gone"?
The
> organic creativity of the old GD is still alive in Phil's band when he
> plays. It's even present in the nuDead. But in what I've heard of
> Further, it ain't really there. And it's never been present in any
> DSO I've ever heard.
Neil, Further has played *three* fucking shows. If there is this
organic creativity, whatever that means, in nuDead, who brought it?
Was it Warren? Or maybe it came from Bobby and Phil? If you can make
the case for the former, I'd love to hear it, but if it's largely
springing from the latter, how is this poor schlep whose only crime
seems to be he speaks the dialect going to derail thing for Bobby and
Phil? He's been playing the music for a long time, and while he ain't
the best I've heard at it among the breed, he's no slouch. Why do you
think he's gonna upset what they've been doing without him simply by
playing the same dialect.
>
> > I would bet that you, probably the staunchest supporter of Philco
> > here, have never gone as far as to assert that anything P&F did was
> > superior to the original take the Dead gave it,
>
> Jeez, have you heard the different versions of songs like The Golden
> Road that Phil has played?
Uh, can't say I have. Never quite joined the party on that tune. A
throwaway for me.
> They did way more with that song than theGD ever did.
Can’t imagine that could have been too hard, since the Dead never did
anything much with it.
> And they also did way more with Unbroken Chain than the
> GD ever managed. As for Viola Lee, I'd far rather hear Phil play that
> than the GD play about half of their catalog.
Well, we all have our idiotsyncracies, so this is what it is.
> > so if you, with your
> > insistence on new, new, new can't find anything that is better than
> > the original approach, why should it be such a crime that they guys
> > playing it would lean that way after ten plus years of doing the
> > square peg/round hole route?
>
> Many Phil shows I have seen are much better than some of the GD shows
> I saw. But that's not the point. Whether or not Phil and Friends is
> better than the GD, Jerry ain't walking onto that stage, so there's
> really no sense in comparing. What Phil can still do, when he
> chooses, is make the music come alive in a manner not unlike what the
> GD could do. I have my doubts that he can do that in a band with
> Kadlicek and Jay Lane. Certainly nothing I've heard so far is worth
> multiple listens.
Well, I haven’t heard anything by any of them that was worth multiple
listens, so I can’t argue with that.
>The entire idea of trying to recreate the old
> versus make something new, it's the antithesis of what the GD were
> about. So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
I still have trouble seeing how simply getting a guy who speaks the
dialect is such a heinous act, since they obviously aren’t going to
stop improvising or anything like that, and it’s unlikely that they
are going to do anything different than they’ve already been doing,
except include a guy who has a better grip on the aesthetic of the
GD.
Fred
Sweetbac
"DG" <nos...@nospam.nospammmm> fawned in message
news:fjg8g5lc86ab0fe59...@4ax.com...
> JK can do Jerry better than most and his jamming ability is stellar.
Damn...sounds like Grampa Donny is gonna throw
his slightly moist boxer shorts at the fake Jerry dude!
...and if you're going to scream like a little b*tch thru
the entire show, keep out of the tapers section!
This is gettin' embarrasing!
Lfh
> "DG" <nos...@nospam.nospammmm> fawned in messagenews:fjg8g5lc86ab0fe59...@4ax.com...
>
> > JK can do Jerry better than most and his jamming ability is stellar.
>
> Damn...sounds like Grampa Donny is gonna throw
> his slightly moist boxer shorts at the fake Jerry dude!
> ...and if you're going to scream like a little b*tch thru
> the entire show, keep out of the tapers section!
> This is gettin' embarrasing!
Heh. He *is* getting a bit worked up.
Fred
Ray
It's amusing to watch DG getting so like totally excited about this
band too, given his until now seemingly endless dismissal/rant against
Phil and Bobby playing live since Jerry died - you know, the members
of this band who were actually in the Grateful Dead as opposed to
imitators like JK.
Brad Greer
wrote:
>On Nov 19, 3:04 pm, Neil X <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Fred wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
>> > which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
>> > figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
>> > the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
>> > be novel, but that's about all.
>>
>> > These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
>> > music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
>> > them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
>>
>> The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
>> of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
>> remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
>> do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
>> with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
>> level wanes immediately.
>
>This baffles me. What is making you think they aren't going to
>improvise? Somehow, you seem to have taken the idea that by bringing
>in a guy who speaks GD dialect better than the other folks they've
>fielded that they are now going to suddenly up and stop improvising.
>This doesn't at all follow. What are you expecting them to do, start
>rehearsing a set show or something?
I don't think Neil is saying that they aren't going to improvise but
rather they will try (more so than Phil and Friends or Ratdog) to
"recreate" the Grateful Dead.
While you (and others) might not like Phil and Bobby trying to use
non-GD influenced guitar players to play what is largely the Grateful
Dead catalog, some people prefer that approach post-Garcia. Others,
of course, prefer to hear someone recreate, as closely as possible,
the sound of the Grateful Dead.
Personally, I have little interest in Dead cover bands or other
attempts to recreate the Grateful Dead sound. I have thousands of
hours of actual Grateful Dead music to listen to pretty much any time
I want. I'd much rather hear a band play the music with their own
interpretation. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't (for
example, the Robben Ford version of Phil and Friends was pretty bad
even though I like Robben Ford).
When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
I'm going to see one night of Further in New York. I expect to have a
great time, to see some friends and hang out, and to hear some pretty
good music.
>> > Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
>> > the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
>> > and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
>> > they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
>> > hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
>> although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
>> great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
>> Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
>> for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
>> something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone.
>
>Again, all they are doing is bringing in a guy who speaks the dialect
>better than the others. Is that alone enough to warrant "attempting to
>recreate what is long gone"?
I think so, and apparently so does Neil.
Fair point.
>> And they also did way more with Unbroken Chain than the
>> GD ever managed. As for Viola Lee, I'd far rather hear Phil play that
>> than the GD play about half of their catalog.
>
>Well, we all have our idiotsyncracies, so this is what it is.
Phil's interpretations of Unbroken Chain are much better than the
versions the Dead did in '95.
As for Viola Lee Blues, I like Phil's take on it but it's not as good
as a vintage Dead Viola Lee.
>> > so if you, with your
>> > insistence on new, new, new can't find anything that is better than
>> > the original approach, why should it be such a crime that they guys
>> > playing it would lean that way after ten plus years of doing the
>> > square peg/round hole route?
>>
>> Many Phil shows I have seen are much better than some of the GD shows
>> I saw. But that's not the point. Whether or not Phil and Friends is
>> better than the GD, Jerry ain't walking onto that stage, so there's
>> really no sense in comparing. What Phil can still do, when he
>> chooses, is make the music come alive in a manner not unlike what the
>> GD could do. I have my doubts that he can do that in a band with
>> Kadlicek and Jay Lane. Certainly nothing I've heard so far is worth
>> multiple listens.
>
>Well, I haven�t heard anything by any of them that was worth multiple
>listens, so I can�t argue with that.
>
>>The entire idea of trying to recreate the old
>> versus make something new, it's the antithesis of what the GD were
>> about. So I'm going to see them, but I do not have high hopes.
>
>I still have trouble seeing how simply getting a guy who speaks the
>dialect is such a heinous act, since they obviously aren�t going to
>stop improvising or anything like that, and it�s unlikely that they
>are going to do anything different than they�ve already been doing,
>except include a guy who has a better grip on the aesthetic of the
>GD.
>
See above for my take on this. Both viewpoints are valid, IMO.
Lfh
> >> > Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
> >> > which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
> >> > figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
> >> > the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
> >> > be novel, but that's about all.
>
> >> > These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
> >> > music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
> >> > them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
>
> >> The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
> >> of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
> >> remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
> >> do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
> >> with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
> >> level wanes immediately.
>
> >This baffles me. What is making you think they aren't going to
> >improvise? Somehow, you seem to have taken the idea that by bringing
> >in a guy who speaks GD dialect better than the other folks they've
> >fielded that they are now going to suddenly up and stop improvising.
> >This doesn't at all follow. What are you expecting them to do, start
> >rehearsing a set show or something?
>
> I don't think Neil is saying that they aren't going to improvise but
> rather they will try (more so than Phil and Friends or Ratdog) to
> "recreate" the Grateful Dead.
I gotta believe that's what he means, but with the "he chooses not to
try" bit the implication in what he actually says is just that, that
they are not going to improvise. I’m only going by what he writes.
> While you (and others) might not like Phil and Bobby trying to use
> non-GD influenced guitar players to play what is largely the Grateful
> Dead catalog, some people prefer that approach post-Garcia. Others,
> of course, prefer to hear someone recreate, as closely as possible,
> the sound of the Grateful Dead.
There’s lots of different sounds of the Dead, depending on the era.
Because they got a guy that speaks the dialect, is Bobby gonna start
suddenly playing like he did in 77, 84, or 93? I’m listening to the
HSF from the Fox, and it’s pretty damn clear that Phil and Bobby are
playing like they play now. I don’t hear anything from them hearkening
back to whatever period. Oddly enough, as I was listening to the China
Cat, the first thing that came to mind was that JK was sorta copping
the Campbell thing if anything. Same thing going on now in Franklin’s.
Lots of little lines strung together instead of those glorious
elongated lines I so love from Jerry. But at other times, he's more in
the dialect of Jerry. Kinda weird.
> Personally, I have little interest in Dead cover bands or other
> attempts to recreate the Grateful Dead sound. I have thousands of
> hours of actual Grateful Dead music to listen to pretty much any time
> I want.
That’s my take on it as well, at least as far as listening to stuff at
home. Hell, this little bit of dipping through DSO this morning has to
equal my entire trip through hearing recordings of such, with the
exception of listening to that whole show where Billy sat in with Stu
Allen’s new outing.
> I'd much rather hear a band play the music with their own
> interpretation. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't (for
> example, the Robben Ford version of Phil and Friends was pretty bad
> even though I like Robben Ford).
Ah, I had such high hopes for that because I used to go see Robben
whenever I could, and he burns it up. I liked him with Phil, but
didn’t like the pairing with the Little Feat guy, as I don’t care for
Little Feat’s sound, though I know they are really good at what they
do. I started out in the as a strong advocate of the “new take” school
of thought, based on the snippet I heard of a Franklin’s and a
Terrapin when I was living in Korea. I even wrote a post here about
how it was right and true to the spirit of the Dead. And I think it
was. As the years went by and I heard bits of shows with other
players, I found myself enjoying the spirit more than the actual
results, so I gravitated to the yearning for someone in the Jerry slot
that had more of a Jerry approach. My desire for the novel doesn’t
seem to burn near as hot as Neil’s, I guess.
It’s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
were distinctly uneasy about it because “the music should be live,
man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.”
> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith’s lines almost directly, I
was wondering about that.
You are right that neither needs to find a guy like Jerry, but that’s
the direction its taken, so something must have triggered them to do
it. I thought it was surprising that they’d both scuttle their
respective bands and take up this on what probably is going to be an
extended gig, given that JK has ditched his steady gig. Either that,
or he done just make a bad career move based on sketchy maybes or
something.
> I'm going to see one night of Further in New York. I expect to have a
> great time, to see some friends and hang out, and to hear some pretty
> good music.
Certainly I am not going to sit and listen to the stuff after today,
but I imagine it will be quite fun to see them live.
> >> > Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
> >> > the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
> >> > and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
> >> > they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
> >> > hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
>
> >> I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
> >> although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
> >> great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
> >> Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
> >> for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
> >> something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone.
>
> >Again, all they are doing is bringing in a guy who speaks the dialect
> >better than the others. Is that alone enough to warrant "attempting to
> >recreate what is long gone"?
>
> I think so, and apparently so does Neil.
So, do you think they are going to ditch their current styles of
playing and attempt to recreate styles from bygone years? That seems
unlikely from the stuff I’ve just listened to.
Fred
Lfh
> >> > Maybe after burning through the "novel" voice on the guitar thing,
> >> > which certainly had its place early on after Jer's passing, they
> >> > figured that the music worked better with a voice that at least speaks
> >> > the same dialect. A Brooklyn accent in a role set in, say, Ireland may
> >> > be novel, but that's about all.
>
> >> > These guys are in their twilight years and have been playing this
> >> > music for close half a century. It seems a bit much to keep asking
> >> > them to reinvent the wheel every time out.
>
> >> The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
> >> of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
> >> remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
> >> do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
> >> with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
> >> level wanes immediately.
>
> >This baffles me. What is making you think they aren't going to
> >improvise? Somehow, you seem to have taken the idea that by bringing
> >in a guy who speaks GD dialect better than the other folks they've
> >fielded that they are now going to suddenly up and stop improvising.
> >This doesn't at all follow. What are you expecting them to do, start
> >rehearsing a set show or something?
>
> I don't think Neil is saying that they aren't going to improvise but
> rather they will try (more so than Phil and Friends or Ratdog) to
> "recreate" the Grateful Dead.
I gotta believe that's what he means, but with the "he chooses not to
try" bit the implication in what he actually says is just that, that
they are not going to improvise. I’m only going by what he writes.
> While you (and others) might not like Phil and Bobby trying to use
> non-GD influenced guitar players to play what is largely the Grateful
> Dead catalog, some people prefer that approach post-Garcia. Others,
> of course, prefer to hear someone recreate, as closely as possible,
> the sound of the Grateful Dead.
There’s lots of different sounds of the Dead, depending on the era.
Because they got a guy that speaks the dialect, is Bobby gonna start
suddenly playing like he did in 77, 84, or 93? I’m listening to the
HSF from the Fox, and it’s pretty damn clear that Phil and Bobby are
playing like they play now. I don’t hear anything from them hearkening
back to whatever period. Oddly enough, as I was listening to the China
Cat, the first thing that came to mind was that JK was sorta copping
the Campbell thing if anything. Same thing going on now in Franklin’s.
Lots of little lines strung together instead of those glorious
elongated lines I so love from Jerry. But at other times, he's more in
the dialect of Jerry. Kinda weird.
> Personally, I have little interest in Dead cover bands or other
> attempts to recreate the Grateful Dead sound. I have thousands of
> hours of actual Grateful Dead music to listen to pretty much any time
> I want.
That’s my take on it as well, at least as far as listening to stuff at
home. Hell, this little bit of dipping through DSO this morning has to
equal my entire trip through hearing recordings of such, with the
exception of listening to that whole show where Billy sat in with Stu
Allen’s new outing.
> I'd much rather hear a band play the music with their own
> interpretation. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't (for
> example, the Robben Ford version of Phil and Friends was pretty bad
> even though I like Robben Ford).
Ah, I had such high hopes for that because I used to go see Robben
whenever I could, and he burns it up. I liked him with Phil, but
didn’t like the pairing with the Little Feat guy, as I don’t care for
Little Feat’s sound, though I know they are really good at what they
do. I started out in the as a strong advocate of the “new take” school
of thought, based on the snippet I heard of a Franklin’s and a
Terrapin when I was living in Korea. I even wrote a post here about
how it was right and true to the spirit of the Dead. And I think it
was. As the years went by and I heard bits of shows with other
players, I found myself enjoying the spirit more than the actual
results, so I gravitated to the yearning for someone in the Jerry slot
that had more of a Jerry approach. My desire for the novel doesn’t
seem to burn near as hot as Neil’s, I guess.
It’s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
were distinctly uneasy about it because “the music should be live,
man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.”
> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith’s lines almost directly, I
was wondering about that.
You are right that neither needs to find a guy like Jerry, but that’s
the direction its taken, so something must have triggered them to do
it. I thought it was surprising that they’d both scuttle their
respective bands and take up this on what probably is going to be an
extended gig, given that JK has ditched his steady gig. Either that,
or he done just make a bad career move based on sketchy maybes or
something.
> I'm going to see one night of Further in New York. I expect to have a
> great time, to see some friends and hang out, and to hear some pretty
> good music.
Certainly I am not going to sit and listen to the stuff after today,
but I imagine it will be quite fun to see them live.
> >> > Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
> >> > the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
> >> > and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
> >> > they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
> >> > hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
>
> >> I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
> >> although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
> >> great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
> >> Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
> >> for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
> >> something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone.
>
> >Again, all they are doing is bringing in a guy who speaks the dialect
> >better than the others. Is that alone enough to warrant "attempting to
> >recreate what is long gone"?
>
> I think so, and apparently so does Neil.
So, do you think they are going to ditch their current styles of
Brad Greer
wrote:
>On Nov 20, 11:35 am, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Fair enough, Neil could have been more clear on this (or perhaps he
believes they wont' improvise with JK, but I doubt that).
>> While you (and others) might not like Phil and Bobby trying to use
>> non-GD influenced guitar players to play what is largely the Grateful
>> Dead catalog, some people prefer that approach post-Garcia. Others,
>> of course, prefer to hear someone recreate, as closely as possible,
>> the sound of the Grateful Dead.
>
>There�s lots of different sounds of the Dead, depending on the era.
>Because they got a guy that speaks the dialect, is Bobby gonna start
>suddenly playing like he did in 77, 84, or 93? I�m listening to the
>HSF from the Fox, and it�s pretty damn clear that Phil and Bobby are
>playing like they play now. I don�t hear anything from them hearkening
>back to whatever period. Oddly enough, as I was listening to the China
>Cat, the first thing that came to mind was that JK was sorta copping
>the Campbell thing if anything. Same thing going on now in Franklin�s.
>Lots of little lines strung together instead of those glorious
>elongated lines I so love from Jerry. But at other times, he's more in
>the dialect of Jerry. Kinda weird.
I'm not saying they're going to recreate an era of the GD ala DSO
(which would be somewhat ironic) but rather by having someone, like
JK, who's deeply versed in playing like Jerry (and able to draw from
all eras of Jerry's playing, I would imagine) it's more of an attempt
to recreate the Grateful Dead sound by having a "Jerry" playing lead
guitar. Let me know if I can make my meaning clearer to you if I have
to.
Which is all cool with me. I personally like the last incarnation of
Phil and Friends and hope they come around again. Ratdog, on the
other hand, does basically nothing for me.
>It�s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
>stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
>back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
>were distinctly uneasy about it because �the music should be live,
>man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.�
What the fuck did those people do in between tours when Jerry was
alive?
>> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
>> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
>> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
>> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
>> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
>
>All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
>enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
>that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith�s lines almost directly, I
>was wondering about that.
Given Bruce's history of being a Deadhead (or at least liking the Dead
a lot) that could have been a tribute from him. Nothing wrong with
letting your influences show. Now I gotta go listen to that
China/Rider to hear that (I assume 1990, right?).
>You are right that neither needs to find a guy like Jerry, but that�s
>the direction its taken, so something must have triggered them to do
>it. I thought it was surprising that they�d both scuttle their
>respective bands and take up this on what probably is going to be an
>extended gig, given that JK has ditched his steady gig. Either that,
>or he done just make a bad career move based on sketchy maybes or
>something.
No idea what the longer-term plans are for Further, Phil and Friends
or Ratdog. Not worrying all that much about it.
>> I'm going to see one night of Further in New York. I expect to have a
>> great time, to see some friends and hang out, and to hear some pretty
>> good music.
>
>Certainly I am not going to sit and listen to the stuff after today,
>but I imagine it will be quite fun to see them live.
Yeah, I plan on enjoying the hell out of the show.
>> >> > Besides, this yearning for the new doesn't seem entirely in line with
>> >> > the hosannas that accompanied the return of chestnuts like Viola Lee
>> >> > and such, and iir that was some of your favorite stuff. It ain't like
>> >> > they did much new with that stuff except put the lead role into the
>> >> > hands of guys who didn't really have a hang on the dialect.
>>
>> >> I'm not suggesting that they write an entire new catalog of songs,
>> >> although songs like "No More Do I" and "Beatifully Broken" were really
>> >> great, and I'm disappointed that Phil stopped playing them after the
>> >> Quintet dissolved. It's not necessary for them to write new material
>> >> for me to be interested. It is necessary for them to try to do
>> >> something besides attempting to recreate what is long gone.
>>
>> >Again, all they are doing is bringing in a guy who speaks the dialect
>> >better than the others. Is that alone enough to warrant "attempting to
>> >recreate what is long gone"?
>>
>> I think so, and apparently so does Neil.
>
>So, do you think they are going to ditch their current styles of
>playing and attempt to recreate styles from bygone years? That seems
>unlikely from the stuff I�ve just listened to.
>
No, see above for (an attempt at) further clarification. I think that
by having JK it's an attempt to say "this is what we'd sound like
today if Jerry were still here." Except that it assumes Jerry
wouldn't change (or, more accurately, become a "dial-a-Jerry" who
could switch between different eras of his playing at will).
But given that the Grateful Dead gave me years of pure enjoyment and
the fact that I like Bobby, Phil, Billy and Mickey as musicians I'll
go see what they're up to this time around. If it's good, I'll go see
them the next time they come around too.
Lfh
> >> >> The whole point of the old GD was to improvise. Hell, there are tons
> >> >> of septegenarian jazz performers that can still improvise quite
> >> >> remarkably well. There's no reason why Phil and Bob shouldn't still
> >> >> do it. And, in fact, Phil still does it quite well with P&F, and even
> >> >> with the Dead last summer. When he chooses not to try, my interest
> >> >> level wanes immediately.
>
> >> >This baffles me. What is making you think they aren't going to
> >> >improvise? Somehow, you seem to have taken the idea that by bringing
> >> >in a guy who speaks GD dialect better than the other folks they've
> >> >fielded that they are now going to suddenly up and stop improvising.
> >> >This doesn't at all follow. What are you expecting them to do, start
> >> >rehearsing a set show or something?
>
> >> I don't think Neil is saying that they aren't going to improvise but
> >> rather they will try (more so than Phil and Friends or Ratdog) to
> >> "recreate" the Grateful Dead.
>
> >I gotta believe that's what he means, but with the "he chooses not to
> >try" bit the implication in what he actually says is just that, that
> >they are not going to improvise. I’m only going by what he writes.
>
> Fair enough, Neil could have been more clear on this (or perhaps he
> believes they wont' improvise with JK, but I doubt that).
Yeah, I doubt it, too, as there’s no support at all for it.
> >> While you (and others) might not like Phil and Bobby trying to use
> >> non-GD influenced guitar players to play what is largely the Grateful
> >> Dead catalog, some people prefer that approach post-Garcia. Others,
> >> of course, prefer to hear someone recreate, as closely as possible,
> >> the sound of the Grateful Dead.
>
> >There’s lots of different sounds of the Dead, depending on the era.
> >Because they got a guy that speaks the dialect, is Bobby gonna start
> >suddenly playing like he did in 77, 84, or 93? I’m listening to the
> >HSF from the Fox, and it’s pretty damn clear that Phil and Bobby are
> >playing like they play now. I don’t hear anything from them hearkening
> >back to whatever period. Oddly enough, as I was listening to the China
> >Cat, the first thing that came to mind was that JK was sorta copping
> >the Campbell thing if anything. Same thing going on now in Franklin’s.
> >Lots of little lines strung together instead of those glorious
> >elongated lines I so love from Jerry. But at other times, he's more in
> >the dialect of Jerry. Kinda weird.
>
> I'm not saying they're going to recreate an era of the GD ala DSO
> (which would be somewhat ironic) but rather by having someone, like
> JK, who's deeply versed in playing like Jerry (and able to draw from
> all eras of Jerry's playing, I would imagine) it's more of an attempt
> to recreate the Grateful Dead sound by having a "Jerry" playing lead
> guitar. Let me know if I can make my meaning clearer to you if I have
> to.
I can see how having a “Jerry” is troublesome to some. As for this guy
being versed in all eras, I haven’t gotten that from the little bit
I’ve heard. Seems like, as in so many cases, it’s a penchant for one
era, pretty much. In this case, I’d say 77-78 ish, not a tone I like
very much. Ok, don’t like at all, which is certainly my loss, but I
just never have.
> >It’s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
> >stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
> >back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
> >were distinctly uneasy about it because “the music should be live,
> >man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.”
>
> What the fuck did those people do in between tours when Jerry was
> alive?
Couldn’t tell ya, but the suss I got wasn’t that it wasn’t cool to
listen to tapes at all, but that if it were gonna be a venue situation
where folks were gonna dance and such, then it had to be live. I’m not
sure many people knew at the time that if ya took a good source and
fed it through a good system playing at “live” volume, then the x-
factor was lurking there in spades.
> >> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
> >> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
> >> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
> >> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
> >> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
>
> >All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
> >enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
> >that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith’s lines almost directly, I
> >was wondering about that.
>
> Given Bruce's history of being a Deadhead (or at least liking the Dead
> a lot) that could have been a tribute from him. Nothing wrong with
> letting your influences show. Now I gotta go listen to that
> China/Rider to hear that (I assume 1990, right?).
Yup. And I wasn’t at all saying anything against it. I thought it was
really cool and chalked it up to him being a Deadhead early on. I took
it as a quoting thing.
Fred
Brad Greer
wrote:
I haven't listened to a lot of DSO, but my understanding is that if
they play a '73 show they try to sound like the '73 band, if they play
a '83 show they try to sound like that. So I go with the assumption
that he's able to play multiple versions of Jerry's style.
>> >It�s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
>> >stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
>> >back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
>> >were distinctly uneasy about it because �the music should be live,
>> >man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.�
>>
>> What the fuck did those people do in between tours when Jerry was
>> alive?
>
>Couldn�t tell ya, but the suss I got wasn�t that it wasn�t cool to
>listen to tapes at all, but that if it were gonna be a venue situation
>where folks were gonna dance and such, then it had to be live. I�m not
>sure many people knew at the time that if ya took a good source and
>fed it through a good system playing at �live� volume, then the x-
>factor was lurking there in spades.
Going somewhere to hear recorded GD music isn't my thing, but I have
no problem if others are into it.
>> >> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
>> >> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
>> >> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
>> >> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
>> >> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
>>
>> >All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
>> >enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
>> >that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith�s lines almost directly, I
>> >was wondering about that.
>>
>> Given Bruce's history of being a Deadhead (or at least liking the Dead
>> a lot) that could have been a tribute from him. Nothing wrong with
>> letting your influences show. Now I gotta go listen to that
>> China/Rider to hear that (I assume 1990, right?).
>
>Yup. And I wasn�t at all saying anything against it. I thought it was
>really cool and chalked it up to him being a Deadhead early on. I took
>it as a quoting thing.
>
Still have to listen to this to hear it, too busy listening to Jimi
right now to switch over, though.
Lfh
> >I can see how having a “Jerry” is troublesome to some. As for this guy
> >being versed in all eras, I haven’t gotten that from the little bit
> >I’ve heard. Seems like, as in so many cases, it’s a penchant for one
> >era, pretty much. In this case, I’d say 77-78 ish, not a tone I like
> >very much. Ok, don’t like at all, which is certainly my loss, but I
> >just never have.
>
> I haven't listened to a lot of DSO, but my understanding is that if
> they play a '73 show they try to sound like the '73 band, if they play
> a '83 show they try to sound like that. So I go with the assumption
> that he's able to play multiple versions of Jerry's style.
I think that's more a thing of how many drummers, what keys and such.
Whatever I've heard of him, he's always sounded pretty much the same.
> >> >It’s interesting to see the evolutions of attitudes about all this
> >> >stuff. Hell, I remember back when I first started going to Deadnights
> >> >back in late 95 or early 96 and there was a sizeable # of folks who
> >> >were distinctly uneasy about it because “the music should be live,
> >> >man. This listening to tapes thing is bogus, d00d.”
>
> >> What the fuck did those people do in between tours when Jerry was
> >> alive?
>
> >Couldn’t tell ya, but the suss I got wasn’t that it wasn’t cool to
> >listen to tapes at all, but that if it were gonna be a venue situation
> >where folks were gonna dance and such, then it had to be live. I’m not
> >sure many people knew at the time that if ya took a good source and
> >fed it through a good system playing at “live” volume, then the x-
> >factor was lurking there in spades.
>
> Going somewhere to hear recorded GD music isn't my thing, but I have
> no problem if others are into it.
Hell, I wouldn't go to sit and listen to it, as that ain't my thing,
either. I go to dance. But there are many folks who go there just to
sit around and smoke an awful lot of dope. And I have no problem with
that.
> >> >> When the Dead brought in Keith they didn't tell him to sound like
> >> >> Pigpen. When they brought in Brent they didn't tell him to sound like
> >> >> Keith, and they didn't tell Vince to sound like Brent. I don't think
> >> >> Phil and Bobby need to find a guitar player who sounds like Jerry.
> >> >> Other people feel differently, and I think both are valid opinions.
>
> >> >All true. And people moaned about each and every new guy, while others
> >> >enjoyed the different voice. That said, when I first heard Bruce on
> >> >that 9/20 China Rider lifting some of Keith’s lines almost directly, I
> >> >was wondering about that.
>
> >> Given Bruce's history of being a Deadhead (or at least liking the Dead
> >> a lot) that could have been a tribute from him. Nothing wrong with
> >> letting your influences show. Now I gotta go listen to that
> >> China/Rider to hear that (I assume 1990, right?).
>
> >Yup. And I wasn’t at all saying anything against it. I thought it was
> >really cool and chalked it up to him being a Deadhead early on. I took
> >it as a quoting thing.
>
> Still have to listen to this to hear it, too busy listening to Jimi
> right now to switch over, though.
Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the China Rider, but
the Truckin' before it. Whatever it was, it really reminded me of
Europe 72.
Fred
volkfolk
>
> Neil is bitter.
My irony meter just exploded
Scot
volkfolk
You've spent the past 10+ years railing against Bob, Phil, Mickey and
Billy, calling them the "leftovers" and making rediculous assertions
about them. (based on what I've heard through the rumor mill, you
resent Bob and Phil because you were deemed a persona non grata around
the GDP offices when you hung out with Dick-I'm sure you're going to
deny it, but I believe it based on sparkling persona you present
around here)
Yeah, I find it more than a little ironic that your suddenly singing
the praises of their latest project because they hired some guy who as
far as I can tell can't do anything original at all. He's just learned
how to mimic somebody who was a true original
And you're "deader than thou" give it to a "real Deadhead" comment was
pretty ironic too, since very little of what I've seen you post makes
me believe you even ARE a deadhead. Not that there is anyway to
actually gauge it, but I think it's safe to say that Neil is far more
of a "Real" Deadhead than a bitter fuck like you.
>Neil no longer likes the music because the guitarist knows how to play like Jerry Garcia...
Neil didn't say he no longer liked the music. He said that he didn't
like DSO
Mimicing isn't "playing like". Here's a newsflash Don, Nobody plays
like Garcia. He was a unique player. John may sound something like
Garcia, but he isn't close to Garcia. I've seen DSO several times.
They're ok for a tribute band, but they aren't even close to the Dead
IMO. The bass player doesn't play anything like Phil and the whole
show recreation thing borders on musical necrophelia IMO. As Neil
pointed out the Dead was all about improvisation. Recreating something
organic is the antithesis of what the Dead were about
> There is no more jamming allowed because of the new guitarist.
> ###########################################
<YAWN>
Scot
Sweetbac
"DG" <nos...@nospam.nospammmm> wrote in message
news:r9bgg5h8phvnk0j1h...@4ax.com...
> Why are you infatuated with me?
He likes older men?
LP
> On Nov 19, 12:54 pm, Lfh <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Playing music that sounds more like the Dead than P&F or Ratdog is
> > less interesting?
>
> Yes, imitating the old days is way less interesting that trying to
> make something new, IMO.
Back in late 1995, the thought of replacing Garcia with a Garcia-clone
would have made me ill, and I would surmise the same for a lot of
people on rmgd as well. Now through the filters of time it seems bound
to be welcomed.
LP
Edwin Hurwitz
<6d0a43bd-3b11-460b...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
LP <so.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
You are right, because that's the way it worked out, but I don't think
that they really ever got the right non-clone players involved. The only
guy who was given a real chance was Warren Haynes and he just wasn't it.
Technical players like Herring are interesting, but aren't challenged
enough to make any interesting tension in the music. Garcia left some
big shoes to fill, but it wasn't just stylistic diversity and technical
ability that made the man, but the force of the charisma of his unique
sound and ability to tell a story. None of the players they've gotten
have had that force of personality and perhaps they don't want it.
Edwin
--
If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your
enemies.
-Moshe Dayan
J.C. Martin
> On Nov 19, 2:42 pm, Neil X <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 19, 4:59 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 19, 10:22 am, "octoad" <davk...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Neil X" <nei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:a6fd0958-fb30-4810...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > > I agree, money is say overrated as a motivator of the surviving
> > > > > members of the Grateful Dead. I'm surprised to hear you agree with
> > > > > that sentiment. It's about time you admitted you were wrong about
> > > > > them.
>
> > > > The fact that Bob and Phil, and to lesser extents Mickey and Billy, play
> > > > music as many nights as they do every year while aging into their 60's seems
> > > > to me to be more a result of their love for playing music rather than their
> > > > love of money.
>
> > > Yup. Without love in that dream it'd never still come true.
>
> > > > They don't need JK to make money, they made boatloads before he came along.
> > > > They chose him because they miss Garcia's playing, JK plays and sings like
> > > > Garcia, and they enjoy playing with a young guy who sounds like Garcia. Its
> > > > rejuvenating for old geezers to try to recreate their pasts. Its nostalgic
> > > > and new at the same time. After all the side projects and all the twists
> > > > and variations, all the combinations and permutations, all the
> > > > rearrangements and changes, they're currently down with playing some regular
> > > > good old Grateful Dead music in the style in which it was originally
> > > > conceived and performed. Good for them, and as far as I'm concerned, good
> > > > for the heads too.
>
> > > I'm curious to see this configuration live. Like Neil a have a general
> > > aversion to artistic imitators, but as the Dead have opted to bring
> > > the DSO guy aboard their bus at least for now I figure the guy may
> > > have something other than complete imitation going on. In any event
> > > I'll check it out with an open mind.
>
> > I'm going down to CT to see them in December. Truly, it's Jay Lane
> > that worries me more than Kadlicek. But with a second drummer, maybe
> > it will be OK.
>
> Wow - Jay Lane?!? I'm with you on that one.
>
> (I guess I've been out of the Dead loop of late.)
Jay is relegated to playing the percussionist role, instead of being
the primary timekeeper: he's doing so standing up and he seems to
bringing a lot of energy. I've never been a Jay Lane fan as far as
Dead material, but based on the Youtube videos I saw, Jay plays this
role VERY well. The rhythm section here brings more intensity to the
music than Mickey or Billy at this stage.
Like I said before, this is all about nostalgia for me. My
expectation is to have a good time and relax. I like the way they
sound performing Dead tunes.
See if you can go on the 30th Ray. I'm also having a NYE party the
next night if you'd like to attend. If it's warm enough, you can
pitch a tent overlooking the vineyards outside my house.
-JC
-JC
J.C. Martin
brought more 'conventional' rock into the mix. Don't get me wrong: I
like P&F's. I've had good times at several of their shows. But I
can't listen to any of these bands digitally after the fact, except
maybe one time to confirm that it's basically nostalgia music, Jerry
clone or not. It's great live though.
The best I can hope for as far as Dead music goes is to see Bobby and
Phil on the same stage. That brings back good memories, and since I
tend to listen to plenty of music outside of the Dead, I have no
allegiance to the concept of a progressive jam band. It's similar to
the idea that I'd rather listen to classic jazz over fuzoid music.
All genres of music don't get better over time. The creative peak for
Dead-related music has long since past. Why need I pretend
otherwise? Does the fact that Phil plays with a more mechanical back
beat make the music more progressive? Not really to me. But what the
heck do I know.
-JC