Laurel Canyon vs Haight
frndthdevl
(Don't Go Back to) San Francisco
By MICHAEL WALKER
Published: June 9, 2007
Los Angeles
SHAKE the stems and seeds out of the Persian rug and put some flowers
in
your hair: the Summer of Love is 40 years old. The patchouli-scented
commemoration has fixated on San Francisco, the Summer of Love's
blissful
nexus. What wretched Midwestern longhair-in-waiting in the summer of
'67
could resist the siren of Scott McKenzie's Top 5 hit, "San Francisco
(Be
Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)"? Untold VW microbuses from Ann
Arbor to
Amherst chugged west on little more than the song's purple-hazy
promise: the
tribes were gathering, and they were gathering in San Francisco.
But as a lasting cultural artifact, San Francisco's Summer of Love
can't
hold a stick of incense to the rafter-shaking sounds coming out that
same
year from a Los Angeles neighborhood 370 miles south, above the
Sunset
Strip. If we measure '60s pop-cultural landmarks by the epoch-
producing
music they generate - and, from Liverpool to Woodstock, we do - then
Laurel
Canyon was the more evolved and influential destination that summer.
Laurel Canyon had been filling up with the baby boom's brightest
musical
lights since 1965, when members of the Byrds, Los Angeles's seminal
folk-rockers, moved in, just as their version of Bob Dylan's "Mr.
Tambourine
Man" was a triumphant, worldwide smash. Soon, it seemed, every
musician of
note in Los Angeles had moved next door: members of the Mamas and the
Papas,
the Doors, the Seeds, the Turtles and Love were later joined by Joni
Mitchell, Graham Nash, Frank Zappa, Carole King and untold transient
rock
royalty from the Beatles to the Rolling Stones.
By the summer of '67, the Laurel Canyon mafia had defined the budding
West
Coast counterculture with an avalanche of generation-unifying songs
that
blended the last vestiges of the folk-music revival with the impudent
exuberance of the British Invasion.
Laurel Canyon and Los Angeles were home to the murderers' row of
rock:
alongside the Byrds - "America's Beatles" according to the not
entirely
undeserved hype - lived Buffalo Springfield, from whose ranks would
come
Stephen Stills, Neil Young and Richie Furay. The Mamas and the Papas,
Laurel
Canyon's house band, had already recorded a string of landmark hits
starting
with "California Dreamin'." The revolutionary flower-punk of Love
produced
the blistering "Seven and Seven Is," a slap to the face masquerading
as a
hit single. The Turtles bounced the Beatles' "Penny Lane" from No. 1
with
"Happy Together," and a couple of months later, The Doors' "Light My
Fire,"
with brooding couplets that juxtaposed sexual longing and funeral
pyres,
rode the charts for weeks during the putatively flower-strewn summer.
San Francisco's music scene developed under conditions vastly
different from
those in Los Angeles. Unstructured gigs at the city's acid-drenched
ballrooms encouraged epic jams of the sort perfected by the Grateful
Dead,
Big Brother and the Holding Company, and the Jefferson Airplane, along
with
a naïve anticommercialism - hit singles were for the hacks in Laurel
Canyon.
The irony is that San Francisco's bands are remembered today chiefly
for the
few times they made commercially successful music, as with Jefferson
Airplane's 1967 "Surrealistic Pillow" album and its Top 10 singles
"Somebody
to Love" and "White Rabbit."
Where San Francisco's music scene was administered by a handful of
show-business novices, Los Angeles was home to Capitol Records, the
Beatles'
label, as well as the world's finest recording studios, producers and
engineers. Laurel Canyon's proximity to this infrastructure - the
unsparing
proving ground of the Sunset Strip's clubs was a five-minute
hitchhike
away - instilled in the musicians a professionalism that stiffened the
spine
of the material they wrote and performed.
In the end, 1967's most prescient generational temperature-taking can
be
found in yet another Los Angeles song that hit the Top 10 just before
the
Summer of Love took off. Buffalo Springfield's chilling "For What
It's
Worth," inspired by Stephen Stills's eyewitness account of police
officers
brutalizing longhairs on the Sunset Strip, questioned the motives of
both
the establishment and the self-congratulating counterculture. Given
the
turmoil that lay just around the corner in 1968, the paranoia of "For
What
It's Worth" strikes deep and true: "there's a man with a gun over
there," it
turned out, would have as much to do with the baby boom generation as
would
wearing flowers in your hair.
The Summer of Love will forever be entwined with San Francisco. But
the rock
critic Robert Christgau predicted in 1967 that "the real music would
come
from Los Angeles." And he was right. The songs that came out of the
Haight
that summer now seem fixed in amber, as temporal as a Fillmore poster,
while
the music from Los Angeles and Laurel Canyon soldiers on, impervious
to age
and ridicule.
Even the Summer of Love's anthem, Scott McKenzie's "San Francisco,"
was
written and recorded in Los Angeles. The song was conceived by John
Phillips
of the Mamas and the Papas expressly as a come-on for the Monterey
International Pop Music Festival, which Mr. Phillips and Lou Adler,
the Los
Angeles record producer, were organizing. The lyrics vividly imagine
a
hippie-sanctified San Francisco, but the flowers in the title are
literally
from Los Angeles: Mr. McKenzie recorded the song while wearing
garlands of
wildflowers plucked in Laurel Canyon.
Michael Walker is the author of "Laurel Canyon: The Inside Story of
Rock 'n'
Roll's Legendary Neighborhood."
--
Bzl.
news:1181441083.0...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
--
Blasphemy!
Seems the difference is Establishment (LA) vs. Anti-establishment (SF). I'd
say the author completely misses the point with "The irony is that San
Francisco's bands are remembered today chiefly for the few times they made
commercially successful music". There are a couple million concertgoers who
weren't around Back When who might have an argument against this.
I read this this morning in the NY Times (just to give proper attribution)
Dave Kelly
Los Angeles copied what the bay area did...
just 6 months later. Witness such perpertraters
to the throne such as the Monkees, Love or the
Mamas and Papas....Monterey pop clearly shed
the light on these frauds for what they truely were....
a day late, and a tab short.
Richard Morris
"frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1181441083.0...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
**********************
Wut a crock of horse shit. What was happening in LA was pop culture crap.
What was happening in SFO was a step forward in real musical evolutionary
development.
Lfh
wrote:
> Wut a crock of horse shit. What was happening in LA was pop culture crap.
> What was happening in SFO was a step forward in real musical evolutionary
> development.
True, with the exception of Zappa of course.
Fred
Joker
Boys, boys...put 'em back in your pants. While every one knows (very
obviously including the author of that piece) that the SF sound/scene
was much hipper, far more far out, groovy and cool and had a bigger
dick than El Lay, nonetheless, everything that came out of El Lay was
not crap. Even some of the "popular" crap was good, very good, even
great. Buffalo Springfield, Zappa, The Byrds, CSN, Joni Mitchell,
Capt. Beefheart, The Doors and so on and so fourth.
Again, yes, yes, yes, El Lay was, is and might always be, up to it's
ass in narcisicism and shallowness, but that didn't/doesn't prevent
some real amazing musicians and artists from putting out some solid,
good or great stuff.
Don't dump on the SoCal crowd so much. Aint it bad enough for them
that already...having to live there and all?
Lfh
> Boys, boys...put 'em back in your pants. While every one knows (very
> obviously including the author of that piece) that the SF sound/scene
> was much hipper, far more far out, groovy and cool and had a bigger
> dick than El Lay,
It's interesting to hear Zappa's take on this, as he decidely
disagreed on this score, and often said that before the cops shut it
down, the LA Freak scene was far more colorful, original, and less
manufactured than the flower power bullshit he so despised.
Fred
Richard Morris
"Lfh" <onetas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181446979.0...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Concur ... there was some good stuff happening in LA ... just as there was
some commercial crap happening in SFO. But in general, what was up in SFO
was real ... what was up with LA was plastique.
R.
Dave Kelly
> True, with the exception of Zappa of course.
>
> Fred
Captain Beefheart beat Zappa to the punch.
Lfh
> "Lfh" <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Dave, please.
Fred
frndthdevl
Witness such perpertraters
> to the throne such as the Monkees, Love or the
> Mamas and Papas....Monterey pop clearly shed
> the light on these frauds for what they truely were....
> a day late, and a tab short.
Are you saying Monterey Pop sucked?
Dave Kelly
"Lfh" <onetas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> Captain Beefheart beat Zappa to the punch.
>
> Dave, please.
>
> Fred
I've always believed that...Beefheart was the road map...
Zappa watered it down and had a career.
Dont get me wrong...I love certain Zappa periods..
but Frank sure stole a LOT of ideas from Van Vliet.
Zappa never fully acknowledged it, but there's no
denying he felt an obligation to help Don out....albeit
not enough....Franks managers not withstanding...
Why was that?
Dave Kelly
> Are you saying Monterey Pop sucked?
Just the opposite...
Maybe you don't know, but the fest was put together
by John Phillips...and his L.A. manager....
they were the last band on the bill, the last nite.
Unfortunately, the 3 bands proceeding tham was
the Who/Dead/Hendrix...MAN that must have been a
tough act to follow...
Capt. Beefheart was supposed to be on the bill,
but Ry Cooder pulled out at the last minute....thus
hampering the Captains exposure.
I NEVER had any respect for that punk after hearing that...
grunk
> "Lfh" <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
More accurately Beefheart and the seldom credited, by Beefheart
anyway, Magic Band were the road map. Beefeart's self mythologizing
history rap seems to always exclude the importance of the innate &
organic genius of his own band. I just don't swallow Beefheart's oft
told tale of not only being responsible for every note payed onstage/
record by but for the very musical traning of cats like Mark Boston,
Jeff Cotton, Art Tripp, etc. those guys are just too fucking good for
this to be the case. Zappa was also grossly over guilty of the same
sort of exploitation where his band was concerned. Refreshingly, you
don't see all that much of this rather insceure and self absorbed
revisionist posturing in the classic era Bat area scene.
volkfolk
Op-Ed Contributor
(Don't Go Back to) San Francisco
By MICHAEL WALKER
Published: June 9, 2007
Los Angeles
<Snip>
Yada Yada Yada.......
The Grateful Dead were way better than any of those bands IMO. As
professional and "tight" (IOW's overproduced and slick) as those LA bands
were, the Dead, Big Brother, QMS, and the Airplane had a SOUND that those
LA bands didn't share. That's why it was called the San Francisco SOUND.
Ralph Gleason even wrote a book about it.
This writer is a nitwit.
CSNY? Pfffft
The Turtles? (Actually I dug them when they were with Zappa and The Mothers)
The Doors? The most overated band in history.
Buffalo Springfield was great, but they lasted how long? Two years?
The Mama's and the Papa's? Same freaking deal,. two or three years isn't
much of a career.
The San Francisco bands were better and cooler. Listen to Cippolina, Garcia
and Jorma's tone back in 67. They all sound pretty similar, in the same way
that the Beatle's and their contemporaries from Liverpool shared a sound
San Francisco's sound was organic. It still feels natural, whereas while I
like the music of many of those LA bands, it doesn't seem as natural or
authentic to me. It's too slick
YMMV,.
Scot
volkfolk
He's SO 100% Fucking Right You Know.
Scot
Tim Donohoe
I'm not sure if Van Vliet really wanted his help. He did the music until
he got bored with it, then he left it for Zappa and moved on to other
things (including being a painter living in a trailer in the desert)
The old geezer
> Dave Kelly wrote:
> > "Lfh" <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Beach Boys were suppossed to headline the Festival & didn't!
Brian backed out. They blew it!! And were forever so labeled
"L-7"!!! Too bad!!
The old geezer
Octopus Ride
"volkfolk" <volk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:r9ednahbF9J1fvbb...@comcast.com...
There was a Laurel Canyon sound. Its called "country rock". JD
Souther, Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, CSNY, Byrds, Gram Parsons, Linda
Ronstadt, the Eagles, etc. were the real Laurel Canyon scene. The Doors,
Zappa, Love, Mamas and Papas, etc, lived there but weren't really part of
that clique. The Troubador was the center of the action, and David Geffen
was the ringmaster.
I prefer the raunchier, louder, more rebellious SF sound, but there was
definitely a Laurel Canyon sound. It took over pop and rock music for
several years.
OR
Olompali4
poets and Bear, by mid 65 the music took off. The world first learned
of "Happenings" (wild lights, freaky sounds, free dancing.. etc) there
and then.
L.A. and London followed later.
Let's remember that The Grateful Dead and Bear arrived in L.A. in Jan
'66 for an extended stay in a "Big Pink" house and spread a whole
lotta' "LOVE" tabbed out to the hipsters and musicians thus truly
fueling the beginning of their freak scene.
The article is revisionist BS. Ask Croz.
Any "Laurel Canyon Sound" is completely a 1969/ early 70's thing
centering around singer songwriters exemplified by Joni.
Dave Kelly
"grunk" <grun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181455780....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> More accurately Beefheart and the seldom credited, by Beefheart
right you are, Grunt...Grunk...whats your name?
The Magic band were phenominal musicians...the Capt.
couldn't read or write music...thats not a putdown....
The legend was he locked them in the basement for months
learning the "Trout Mask" material...
here's a definitive article on the early madness
http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/threedecades.htm
volkfolk
"Octopus Ride" <fakea...@anyisp.com> wrote in message
news:_HSai.243$TO3...@eagle.america.net...
That was several years later, and it wasn't the same thing as the whole
scene the Bay Area, with Kesey and the Pranksters, the dances and the be-in
> I prefer the raunchier, louder, more rebellious SF sound, but there was
> definitely a Laurel Canyon sound. It took over pop and rock music for
> several years.
Again SF was first, and WAY better than most of those LA bands
YMMV,
Scot
frndthdevl
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181449469.9...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Are you saying Monterey Pop sucked?
>
> Just the opposite...
> Maybe you don't know, but the fest was put together
> by John Phillips...and his L.A. manager....
yeah I did know that, was not sure you did if you think the LA music
scene sucked so much at that time.
yeah Gram Parsons, he sucked,
Joni Mithcel she sucks
CSN oh so plastic. lol
frndthdevl
LOL
wow,
so many of you are just like conservative republicans "my shit is
better than yours" lol
Instead of seeing the article as it is, some get their hackles up and
feel the need to bash to make ones own opinions more right. LOL
Octopus Ride
It definitely wasn't the same thing, no. But it was a scene, and it was
hugely influential musically. In SF the scene itself was the thing, with
music just being part of it; in Laurel Canyon the songs were the main deal.
Everybody was writing songs, which wasn't the focus in SF.
As for the time frame, it was actually pretty close. Lots of the people I
mentioned were in Laurel Canyon by 67, all by 68 and 69, they just weren't
under Geffen's management and weren't famous yet. Henley and Frey banged
around for years in other bands before forming the Eagles, and Ronstadt was
banging all these guys even before Joni was.
>> I prefer the raunchier, louder, more rebellious SF sound, but there was
>> definitely a Laurel Canyon sound. It took over pop and rock music for
>> several years.
> Again SF was first, and WAY better than most of those LA bands
>
> YMMV,
It doesn't. Just pointing out there was a very important country rock
scene in Laurel Canyon.
None of which would have been possible without Joni. She slept with almost
every male I mentioned: Souther, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Browne, etc, and all
of them wrote songs about her and she about them.
A friend gave me a book on this stuff called Hotel California. It
documents the whole Laurel Canyon thing, and is probably better than the
book being pushed in the original post.
I knew almost nothing about that area during this era until I read it,
mainly because I didn't much care for most of the music (Love excepted and
they were definitely happening in 66 and 67 and didn't hang with the
Troubador crowd in any event. They were way more like an SF band what with
all the LSD and weird stuff like living communally in Bela Lugosi's
mansion).
The physical environment played a part in the differences between SF and LA.
Obviously SF was very urban with sidewalks and street activity and
businesses just down the block from your Victorian. The canyons were much
more countrified; trees, space, woodsy cabins etc. You had to drive to go
anywhere. In the midst of a megalopolis, but with a country feel. The
whole laid back singer/songwriter/introspection gestalt. The hotspot was a
tiny club populated mainly by other musicians. SF's urban scene was spawned
from a hipster/beatnik vibe and featured large public ballrooms with an
anything goes atmosphere. SF had LSD style intrpospection, LA had love
affair, navel gazing style introspection.
And of course in LA, even in the woods, becoming a star and being successful
was always more important than it was in SF.
OR
Octopus Ride
Don't forget the "Y". Neil Young was in Laurel then Topanga Canyon during
the late 60's too. That's where he was during Buffalo Springfield and his
first solo albums.
The only LA musician in this canyon crowd not have banged Joni, apparently.
Weird, unless Canadians have some sort of unwritten rule that you don't do
each other outside of the home country.
OR
Avant Grape
In other words, your bashing and self-righteousness are better that
coming from everyone else. Who needs opinions after all when we should
all think like Jeff!
Some things never change. ;-)
BTW, if you're gonna talk about Laurel Canyon, let's not forget its
rebellious step-son and greatest export...Neil Young.
-JC
Avant Grape
> "frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1181498842.1...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>On Jun 9, 10:15?pm, "Dave Kelly" <sweet...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>>"frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>news:1181449469.9...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Are you saying Monterey Pop sucked?
>>>
>>>Just the opposite...
>>>Maybe you don't know, but the fest was put together
>>>by John Phillips...and his L.A. manager....
>>
>>
>>yeah I did know that, was not sure you did if you think the LA music
>>scene sucked so much at that time.
>>
>>
>>yeah Gram Parsons, he sucked,
>>Joni Mithcel she sucks
>>CSN oh so plastic. lol
>
>
> Don't forget the "Y". Neil Young was in Laurel then Topanga Canyon during
> the late 60's too.
Yup. Topanga Canyon had quite a music scene at the time. LA musicians
still live in both Topanga and Laurel Canyon to this day. I lived in
Topanga Canyon for 2 years. That's where a met my wife. Richie
Haywood from Little Feet was a neighbor. We lived on the side of the
hill that caught fire. Crazy. Good times back then. Lots of musical
jams and bizarre parties.
-JC
Avant Grape
>
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> wow,
>> so many of you are just like conservative republicans "my shit is
>> better than yours" lol
>>
>> Instead of seeing the article as it is, some get their hackles up and
>> feel the need to bash to make ones own opinions more right. LOL
In other words, your bashing and self-righteousness are better than that
frndthdevl
>
> In other words, your bashing and self-righteousness are better that
> coming from everyone else. Who needs opinions after all when we should
> all think like Jeff!
>
> Some things never change. ;-)
>
> BTW, if you're gonna talk about Laurel Canyon, let's not forget its
> rebellious step-son and greatest export...Neil Young.
>
> -JC
I didn't post it as a bash. I didn't start the bashing. But since when
did facts ever matter to you. I never stated an opinion that Laurel
was better than Haight. I posted because it seemed interesting and
brought back many magical music memories from my youth.You know in
this 40 years ago nostalgic phase that is going around. Perhaps you
had to listen to that music live on AM to not have the desire or
coolness to bash.
And I then found it interesting and commented on the fact that some
thought the need to immediately castigate something that falls outside
their perceived order of the way things should be. Even though the
article did refer to the jams as "epic" which is praise to me. I
will say if somebody does not see Sweethearts of The ROdeo as
important as anything done back then , well they must not know shit.
And I always find it funny when any mention of Socal is immediately
seen as a threat to all things great in the Bay Area. Esecially when
that plastic democratic party gets most of its votes and money from
the LA area.
JC, just tell me to quit posting would ya, then you would not have to
lie in wait.
volkfolk
Get over yourself already.
Scot
Avant Grape
> On Jun 10, 11:33?am, Avant Grape <avantgr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>In other words, your bashing and self-righteousness are better that
>>coming from everyone else. Who needs opinions after all when we should
>>all think like Jeff!
>>
>>Some things never change. ;-)
>>
>>BTW, if you're gonna talk about Laurel Canyon, let's not forget its
>>rebellious step-son and greatest export...Neil Young.
>>
>>-JC
>
>
> I didn't post it as a bash. I didn't start the bashing. But since when
> did facts ever matter to you. I never stated an opinion that Laurel
> was better than Haight. I posted because it seemed interesting and
> brought back many magical music memories from my youth.You know in
> this 40 years ago nostalgic phase that is going around. Perhaps you
> had to listen to that music live on AM to not have the desire or
> coolness to bash.
> And I then found it interesting and commented on the fact that some
> thought the need to immediately castigate something that falls outside
> their perceived order of the way things should be. Even though the
> article did refer to the jams as "epic" which is praise to me. I
> will say if somebody does not see Sweethearts of The ROdeo as
> important as anything done back then , well they must not know shit.
We're on the same page. I was just listening to that album yesterday.
Historic stuff. I wouldn't argue with anyone claiming Buck Owens or
Merle Haggard to be the most influential country artists to ever come
out of California, but then I wouldn't argue if someone made the same
statement about Gram Parsons and the Byrds.
> And I always find it funny when any mention of Socal is immediately
> seen as a threat to all things great in the Bay Area. Esecially when
> that plastic democratic party gets most of its votes and money from
> the LA area.
See Jeff, you've got to understand. The bay area/L.A. rivalry goes way
back. You're obviously not from California. Plus, most of L.A. is
built up of transplants, so many of them aren't even aware that the
rivalry exists. It's all in good fun.
> JC, just tell me to quit posting would ya, then you would not have to
> lie in wait.
Oh, I love your posts. I just think you should self-reflect a little
more before criticizing everyone for being critical.
-JC
frndthdevl
> frndthdevl wrote:
Even though the
> > article did refer to the jams as "epic" which is praise to me. I
> > will say if somebody does not see Sweethearts of The ROdeo as
> > important as anything done back then , well they must not know shit.
>
> We're on the same page. I was just listening to that album yesterday.
> Historic stuff. I wouldn't argue with anyone claiming Buck Owens or
> Merle Haggard to be the most influential country artists to ever come
> out of California, but then I wouldn't argue if someone made the same
> statement about Gram Parsons and the Byrds.
>
No late 60's LA music scene, no Working Man's or American Beauty.
I'm just lonesome L.A. cowboy
Hanging out, and hanging on
To your window ledge, callin' your name
>From midnight until dawn
I been smoking dope, snorting coke
Trying to write a song
Forgettin' everything I know
Till the next line comes along
Forgetting everything I know
Till the next line comes along
So many pretty people in this city, and I swear
Some of them are girls
I meet 'em down at Barney's Beanery
In their platform shoes and spit curls
I buy 'em drinks, we stoke our hopes
And try to make it one more night
When I'm left alone at last
I feel like I'll die from crying
rowan
volkfolk
You miss the whole point of the freaking article. In 66 and 67 the SF scene
was way more happening.
The author of the article contended otherwise.
Scot
Dave Kelly
> yeah Gram Parsons, he sucked,
> Joni Mithcel she sucks
> CSN oh so plastic. lol
...another coherent post by this dude....
anyways...it seems to me that the laurel canyon
crowd was the 2nd wave of music that came out
of the haight influence....what does Joni Mitchell have
to do with the Dead, Airplane, Moby Grape?...
CSN released they 1st album in 1969....
Gram Parsons was also a 2nd wave performer...and, I
might add, a minor player in retrospect...he was with the
Byrds for what...6 months..."Sweetheart" is a good album,
but not groundbreaking...Gram did the 1st Burritos album,
then got used by the Mick/Keef camp...sucking everything out
of him...he never recovered and withered away.
I'm more than happy to set you people straight.
The beers are about chilled...good day.
Chris
"Dave Kelly" <swee...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:O7Zai.17778$C96....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
hipsters were triggered thereby. Trying to take credit for the Genesis of
the 60's avant garde is typical LA poseur stuff ,sad and pathetic. That
SoCal sound was fine when it emerged but trying to say it had the jump on
The City is like saying Hendrix was white because there was caucasion in his
ancestory.
volkfolk
"Dave Kelly" <swee...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:O7Zai.17778$C96....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>
The man ain't talkin shit here. The article was talking about the Summer of
Love, not 1969
Scot
frndthdevl
> Op-Ed Contributor
> (Don't Go Back to) San Francisco
> By MICHAEL WALKER
> Los Angeles
>
>
> But as a lasting cultural artifact, San Francisco's Summer of Love
> can't
> hold a stick of incense to the rafter-shaking sounds coming out that
> same
> year from a Los Angeles neighborhood 370 miles south, above the
> Sunset
> Strip. If we measure '60s pop-cultural landmarks by the epoch-
> producing
> music they generate - and, from Liverpool to Woodstock, we do - then
> Laurel
> Canyon was the more evolved and influential destination that summer.
See the word to pay attention is IF. Obviously WE fucking deadheads
do not. I don't see this guy saying it WAS. Jsut becaseu we like the
Grateful Dead mroe than most sane people does not make it an insult
when grains of truth are spoken. And cultural artifacts are what they
are, created when they happened. Doesn't make them revisionism to say
most people today would identify to LA music than Haight music. Yeah ,
we all know they are wrong and it was all about the Grateful Dead.
But if you think we are all bigger than the popular culture at that
time, well ok.
>
> Laurel Canyon had been filling up with the baby boom's brightest
> musical
> lights since 1965, when members of the Byrds, Los Angeles's seminal
> folk-rockers, moved in, just as their version of Bob Dylan's "Mr.
> Tambourine
> Man" was a triumphant, worldwide smash. Soon, it seemed, every
> musician of
> note in Los Angeles had moved next door: members of the Mamas and the
> Papas,
> the Doors, the Seeds, the Turtles and Love were later joined by Joni
> Mitchell, Graham Nash, Frank Zappa, Carole King and untold transient
> rock
> royalty from the Beatles to the Rolling Stones.
Again, sorry to harsh y'alls mellow. But these bands were the
soundtrack of my pre-teen and early teen years. Doesn't detract from
any San Fran music for me that these people lived and worked in LA
and not San Francisco. Perhaps they liked the better weather of Laurel
and Topanga
>
> By the summer of '67, the Laurel Canyon mafia had defined the budding
> West
> Coast counterculture with an avalanche of generation-unifying songs
> that
> blended the last vestiges of the folk-music revival with the impudent
> exuberance of the British Invasion.
is this above a lie?
I bet most of us here heard more of these songs, and were part of our
lives much more than than any epic 67 Grateful Dead. Closest thing I
got to it was digging White Rabbit and SOmeone To LOve. Must have been
the producer.
>snipped some great stuff on rereading. Even better than the first time from a historical perspective not a coolness pov .>
>
> San Francisco's music scene developed under conditions vastly
> different from
> those in Los Angeles.
> Unstructured gigs at the city's acid-drenched
> ballrooms encouraged epic jams of the sort perfected by the Grateful
> Dead,
> Big Brother and the Holding Company, and the Jefferson Airplane,
so since around here does the description "epic jam" become a
negative?
I thought unlike politics of today, it sought more to give props to
"his" point of view in a positive way ,rather than just post negatives
agsint what most of our pov is. He wasn't tearing down the bay Area to
stand up Laurel Canyon.
>along
> with
> a naïve anticommercialism - hit singles were for the hacks in Laurel
> Canyon.
lol and it was all plastic and derivative too.
same as it ever was i guess.
> The irony is that San Francisco's bands are remembered today chiefly
> for the
> few times they made commercially successful music, as with Jefferson
> Airplane's 1967 "Surrealistic Pillow" album and its Top 10 singles
> "Somebody
> to Love" and "White Rabbit."
Is this not true? Still it is not a negative. What? Nobody around here
is clued in enough to realize there are people who still do not who
the grateful dead are? Or what they were, or mean to us? Or othey
only know them or found them them post 87? Even a few around here I
bet. Most people don't know or care how we all think they are beyond
creation. Oops, wrong album. Doesn't make it revisionist bullshit
just because one thinks the center of the universe
is a certain geographical location, even if right.
>
> Where San Francisco's music scene was administered by a handful of
> show-business novices,
Again. where is the negative? Seemed to have worked out just fine.
snippage
>
> The Summer of Love will forever be entwined with San Francisco. But
> the rock
> critic Robert Christgau predicted in 1967 that "the real music would
> come
> from Los Angeles." And he was right. The songs that came out of the
> Haight
> that summer now seem fixed in amber, as temporal as a Fillmore poster,
> while
> the music from Los Angeles and Laurel Canyon soldiers on, impervious
> to age
> and ridicule.
Sure, if one wanted to get a bit negative this could do it. Of course
he did say "that" summer. He was not saying what was coming out of
San Francisco then, or after that time. He was not saying that all
musical influence coming out of the bay area was irrelevant. The one
critic was speaking of 1967, in 1967. And back then he was right, imo,
however his view future of course was not so clear imo either. Of
course my judgement has been obscured by countless hours of 70-77
Dead. Not so much 67. When was the last time anybody here put on a run
of 67? Besides today.
As far as ridicule goes? Yeah, that certainly has never been the case
about the grateful dead and other bay area bands. lol Nope,never a SNL
skit or movie reference to the haight culture of 67.
You know, it is not like folks did not travel north and south back
then. Where do you think the Grateful Dead got the idea of going
country? I think there is a very good case to be made that in general
it was a CALIFORNIA sound, influenced by all regions. Shoot, best Hard
To handle is in LA.
Most people agree that 67 was past the beginning of the end of the
"Summer of Love". Of course for us, the grateful dead kept getting
better and we did not care about popular culture. Still don't.
"Free Paris!"
Which is what this guy was talking about. It is also interesting to
me only, that the country rock movement sprang up not long after
67,with many of the same LA players of 67. While The Grateful Dead
fled the city to the country, and achieved much of their early
commercial success due to their country rock tunes.
Steve Terry
"frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> Laurel Canyon was the more evolved and influential destination that
> summer.
But I thought Marin was more evolved.
frndthdevl
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> > Laurel Canyon was the more evolved and influential destination that
> > summer.
>
> But I thought Marin was more evolved.
now Steve, you know that was a quote from the article and should have
had >> and not me.
lol though it seems to be a correct one. Though as proven not a
popular one in these biased parts. Understandably. But If the scene of
67 evolved into country-rock in LA, and the scene in the Haight died
in the heat degenerating in a pool of runaways,speed users and bands
fleeing. Well, hmmm.
Again, doesn't make me believing that the grateful dead is the best
thing musically that has ever happened to me, diminished in my eyes.
frndthdevl
Steve Terry
Who cares about hit songs and Capitol Records and "proximity to
infrastructure"? Get real. It was the sixties and San Fran was where it was
at. If this article holds any water then all of the migrating hippies went
to LA, right? Didn't happen, my friend. San Francisco will forever be the
test tube in which the great experiment took place.
Avant Grape
> "frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1181498842.1...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>yeah Gram Parsons, he sucked,
>>Joni Mithcel she sucks
>>CSN oh so plastic. lol
>
>
> ...another coherent post by this dude....
> anyways...it seems to me that the laurel canyon
> crowd was the 2nd wave of music that came out
> of the haight influence....what does Joni Mitchell have
> to do with the Dead, Airplane, Moby Grape?...
> CSN released they 1st album in 1969....
> Gram Parsons was also a 2nd wave performer...and, I
> might add, a minor player in retrospect...he was with the
> Byrds for what...6 months..."Sweetheart" is a good album,
> but not groundbreaking...Gram did the 1st Burritos album,
> then got used by the Mick/Keef camp..
There's too many artists who cite Sweetheart as an influence to not be
groundbreaking. It literally set the tone for the whole west coast
country-rock scene, for better or worse. As far as as the 1st Burritos
albums, certainly it was good stuff, but I don't think its influence
stretches as wide. Gram's solo albums are probably more important in
that respect.
-JC
Avant Grape
No maaaaan, mine is the bestest of all scenes, dig?
-JC
Avant Grape
Depends. L.A. is a songwriter's town. If you wanted to be down with a
scene that focused on songwriting, L.A. was your town. If you wanted to
focus on da jams, the marriage of rock with jazz sensibilities, the
Haight was it. You can't say that places like Venice Beach, Topanga
Canyon and Laurel Canyon weren't destinations for artists, weirdos and
hippies though. It may not be popular to say so, but the truth is that
those were all thriving scenes for artists back then.
Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the Haight. But I'm not going to
pretend that nothing was going on elsewhere. If you start listening to
a lot of music around the world, you'll see that scenes like this were
springing up in Brazil, Eastern Europe, Germany, England, etc. It's not
like counter-culture started in one central point.
-JC
frndthdevl
> But the difference is that the LA music scene in '67 was more about profits.
you walk for free steve? profit ain't such a bad thing.
Get real. It was the sixties and San Fran was where it was
> at.
yes, and by the end of 1967 the Summer of Love was done. Altamont was
not a symptom, Altamont was the outcome.
> If this article holds any water then all of the migrating hippies went
> to LA, right?
The article had nothing to do with hippies migrating. It ws about the
musical contributions that ONE year and the evolvement after that
seems to give a nod to his view. Of course 70's dead to all of us
trumps whatever he says, I understand that. Except that "hippies"
were a pop culture creation in 1967. Tour busses,reports with harry
reasoner. Hadn't the mass migration of the first visionaries, artists
pranksters and hipsters from The City
began? And kids fleeeing to California would have found LA a much
harder place to congregate, due to it's size, and being a horizotal
city rather than a vertical one. So yeah. San Fran was a mecca. It
also had that LA song sang about it. I am sure that helped huh?And to
us, it is the only logcial place. Now and then. But his points are
salient despite OUR religious beliefs.
Lfh
> You miss the whole point of the freaking article. In 66 and 67 the SF scene
> was way more happening.
> The author of the article contended otherwise.
Well, as I said, opinions vary, notably FZ's. Here's some thoughts
from him.
Fred
On Mother's Day, 1964, the name of the band was officially changed to
the Mothers. We had begun to build a little constituency on the
psychedelic dungeon circuit.
There was a 'scene' evolving in L.A. at that time -- something very
different from the 'scene' in San Francisco.
San Francisco in the mid-sixties was very chauvinistic, and
ethnocentric. To the Friscoids' way of thinking, everything that came
from THEIR town was really important Art, and anything from anyplace
else (especially L.A.) was dogshit. Rolling Stone magazine helped to
promote this fiction, nationwide.
One of the reasons musicians moved to San Francisco was to be
certified as part of The Real Deal. The other was the 'Kool-Aid Bonus'
at the Grateful Dead concerts.
The scene in Los Angeles was far more bizarre. No matter how 'peace-
love' the San Francisco bands might try to make themselves, they
eventually had come south to evil ol' Hollywood to get a record deal.
My recollection is that the highest cash advance paid for signing any
group during that time was for the Jefferson Airplane -- an
astounding, staggering, twenty-five thousand dollars, an unheard-of
sum of money.
The Byrds were the be-all and end-all of Los Angeles rock then. They
were 'It' -- and then a group called Love was 'It.' There were a few
'psychedelic' groups that never really got to be 'It,' but they could
still find work and get record deals, including the West Coast Pop Art
Experimental Band, Sky Saxon and the Seeds, and the Leaves (noted for
their cover version of "Hey, Joe").
When we first went to San Francisco, in the early days of the Family
Dog, it seemed that everybody was wearing the same costume, a mixture
of Barbary Coast and Old West -- guys with handlebar mustaches, girls
in big bustle dresses with feathers in their hair, etc. By contrast,
the L.A. costumery was more random and outlandish.
Musically, the northern bands had a little more country style. In
L.A., it was folk-rock to death. Everything had that fucking D chord
down at the bottom of the neck where you wiggle your finger around --
like "Needles and Pins."
The blues was acceptable in San Francisco, but didn't go over in
Hollywood at all. I remember the Butterfield Blues Band playing at the
Trip. They were hot shit everyplace else in the country, but the
people in L.A. would rather have listened to "Mr. Tambourine Man."
****
In 1966 and '67, the L.A.P.D. and the Sheriffs Department went to war
with the freaks in Hollywood. Every weekend people were rounded up
(with no warrants presented or charges stated) as they walked on
Sunset Boulevard, forced into Sheriffs buses, driven downtown, held
hostage for the evening, then let go -- all because they had LONG
HAIR.
The places where they used to eat (Ben Frank's on Sunset and Canter's
Deli on Fairfax) were under constant surveillance. The city government
threatened to take away Elmer (Whisky-a-Go-Go) Valentine's liquor
license if he didn't stop booking long-haired acts into his club.
There was no place left to work in Hollywood.
****
"Hippies were a very conformist group, with an established uniform,
vocabulary and lifestyle," says Zappa, "whereas freaks could be
anybody weird. LA has always had people who are weird, of all
persuasions, of all different kinds of clothes, vocabularies and modes
of behaviour, and the only thing that could unify them as a group you
could call freaks was that they were individually freakish. And there
were a lot of those kinds of people in Hollywood at that time."
Steve Terry
"frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> It ws about the
> musical contributions that ONE year and the evolvement after that
> seems to give a nod to his view.
What measurement do you use to gauge these musical contributions? The author
seems to rely on commercial success as his barometer. With that argument,
Michael Jackson was better than the Grateful Dead. I just don't buy his
arguments, although as the author of "Laurel Canyon: The Inside Story of
Rock 'n' Roll's Legendary Neighborhood" I can understand where he is coming
from.
Lfh
> The bay area/L.A. rivalry goes way back.
I always wondered how much of this spun of the hatred of the Giants/
Dodgers in NY after it moved out west.
Fred
frndthdevl
> ****
>
> In 1966 and '67, the L.A.P.D. and the Sheriffs Department went to war
> with the freaks in Hollywood. Every weekend people were rounded up
> (with no warrants presented or charges stated) as they walked on
> Sunset Boulevard, forced into Sheriffs buses, driven downtown, held
> hostage for the evening, then let go -- all because they had LONG
> HAIR.
>
>
http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of_the_lapd/content_basic_view/1112
frndthdevl
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> > It ws about the
> > musical contributions that ONE year and the evolvement after that
> > seems to give a nod to his view.
>
> What measurement do you use to gauge these musical contributions? The author
> seems to rely on commercial success as his barometer.
Musical evolution at some level works for me.
What influence or new and upcoming sound, did the Bay Area bands from
1967 contribute to in the next few years? Please lay it on me in the
same documented way as is documented with many of the LA musicians at
that time.
Blowing OUR minds in countless shows available to us is not quite the
same thing imho
Did the GD get better? yes
Do we all think that is all that counts? yes
Does that mean anything to most people? know
frndthdevl
Tony, wacked or not?
Witness protection?
Wheterh Tony goes down or not, hopefully Phil leotardo better be going
down sufferably
Octopus Ride
"Avant Grape" <avant...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:wl%ai.14012$RX....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
Octopus Ride
"Avant Grape" <avant...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:wl%ai.14012$RX....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the Haight. But I'm not going to
> pretend that nothing was going on elsewhere. If you start listening to a
> lot of music around the world, you'll see that scenes like this were
> springing up in Brazil, Eastern Europe, Germany, England, etc. It's not
> like counter-culture started in one central point.
I would have loved to have been old enough and well off enough to have spent
part of the summers of 66 and 67 at the UFO Club in London.
This is an INSANE little film...........
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iA7wdO00VI
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LvkjqkAgsE
OR
Dave Kelly
"Avant Grape" <avant...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:wl%ai.14012$RX....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the Haight. But I'm not going to
> pretend that nothing was going on elsewhere. If you start listening to a
> lot of music around the world, you'll see that scenes like this were
> springing up in Brazil, Eastern Europe, Germany, England, etc. It's not
> like counter-culture started in one central point.
>
> -JC
Word, G.
I dont mean to hate on southern cal....
I'm a Byrds fanatic...the Doors too..
at least that article brewed up some cool discussion...
Richard Morris
> On Jun 10, 4:37?pm, "Steve Terry" <ruthanne@TAKE_OFFccrtc.com> wrote:
>> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message:
>> > It ws about the
>> > musical contributions that ONE year and the evolvement after that
>> > seems to give a nod to his view.
>>
>> What measurement do you use to gauge these musical contributions? The
>> author
>> seems to rely on commercial success as his barometer.
>
>
> Musical evolution at some level works for me.
> What influence or new and upcoming sound, did the Bay Area bands from
> 1967 contribute to in the next few years? Please lay it on me in the
> same documented way as is documented with many of the LA musicians at
> that time.
They brought the improvisation of jazz into rock music for one thing. For
another, it was not popular, top 40 music ... bands looking for a hit to
make some $. Insipid shit, for the most part.
frndthdevl
wrote:
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181519409.3...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 4:37?pm, "Steve Terry" <ruthanne@TAKE_OFFccrtc.com> wrote:
> >> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> >> > It ws about the
> >> > musical contributions that ONE year and the evolvement after that
> >> > seems to give a nod to his view.
>
> >> What measurement do you use to gauge these musical contributions? The
> >> author
> >> seems to rely on commercial success as his barometer.
>
> > Musical evolution at some level works for me.
> > What influence or new and upcoming sound, did the Bay Area bands from
> > 1967 contribute to in the next few years? Please lay it on me in the
> > same documented way as is documented with many of the LA musicians at
> > that time.
>
> They brought the improvisation of jazz into rock music for one thing.
some would say Frank Zappa also did that
For
> another, it was not popular, top 40 music ... bands looking for a hit to
> make some $. Insipid shit, for the most part.-
"insipd shit" lol
whatever you say Richard
So members of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan were insipid
because at one time they lived and worked in the LA area, and ahd
popular top 40 music? Or are you the sole designator of insipid music?
yeah this sucks big time
frndthdevl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-SD5HXZyE&mode=related&search=
Steve Terry
"frndthdevl" <frndt...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> So members of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan were insipid
> because at one time they lived and worked in the LA area
I'm sorry, but LA cannot claim the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan as
their own.
Oh, and I'm now listening to 8/6/74, and that's anything but insipid.
Dave Kelly
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-SD5HXZyE&mode=related&search=
these blind youtube links are REALLY lame.
Steve Terry
"Avant Grape" <avant...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message:
> Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the Haight. But I'm not going to
> pretend that nothing was going on elsewhere. If you start listening to a
> lot of music around the world, you'll see that scenes like this were
> springing up in Brazil, Eastern Europe, Germany, England, etc. It's not
> like counter-culture started in one central point.
Well, I was referring to the American music scene of course, and I'm glad to
know that the rest of the world was following suit. Kinda reminds me of the
Revolutions of 1848 in that it all started in Sicily and spread like
wildfire.
Richard Morris
Jeff ... you started this by posting an article that made some rather
sweeping generalities. On the other hand, you howl mightily when anyone
else offers a generalization and immediately try to think of exceptions in
an effort to make your point.
Certainly you can think of exceptions to the generalities. But in general,
I will say that SFO bands were less commercial in their orientation and play
style than LA bands. And I think that is true, overall.
Finally, whether something is insipid or not has nothing to do with its
location of origin ... but it often has a lot to do with whether it was
produced in an effort to sell it to screaming kids who wouldn't know good
music if it bit them on the ass. This is all rather clear from the sentence
that I wrote above--that I was referring to top 40 commercial music which
has not held up to the test of time other than in the memories of young
people in the throes of teen angst.
Olompali4
>
> The blues was acceptable in San Francisco, but didn't go over in
> Hollywood at all. I remember the Butterfield Blues Band playing at the
> Trip. They were hot shit everyplace else in the country, but the
> people in L.A. would rather have listened to "Mr. Tambourine Man."
>
Yay! A hit 45 created by butchering the songwriter's original lyric
using studio pros playing electric guitars and backing folk singers.
Almost the very definition of the mid 60's "recording industry."
Columbia executive..."if only we could get the Beatles to sing a Dylan
tune....hmmmmmmmmm...."
I'll take Bloomfield and co. playing the blues. Still.
Thanks Frank. That said it all.
Richard Morris
"Steve Terry" <ruthanne@TAKE_OFFccrtc.com> wrote in message
news:f4i6ck$1ptf$1...@news.iquest.net...
Early Beatles were insipid, yep. Blatantly commercial ... plain old top 40
rock and roll. Rolling Stones (last I heard they were a British group, but
Jeff wants to claim them because they passed through SoCal at some point),
and yeah, they just play rock and roll. They play it damned well ... but
they reach their target audience through top 40 radio and their motivation
is generally commercial. Dylan? He is a gifted artist.
None of them have shit-all to do with LA.
Lfh
> > right you are, Grunt...Grunk...whats your name?
> > The Magic band were phenominal musicians...the Capt.
> > couldn't read or write music...thats not a putdown....
> > The legend was he locked them in the basement for months
> > learning the "Trout Mask" material...
> > here's a definitive article on the early madness
> >http://www.beefheart.com/datharp/threedecades.htm
>
> Finally! Someone's come around to school Fred on the Zappa dichotomy!
> I like SU&PYG and some other FZ stuff and periods as much as anything,
> but Don VV had the thing first...he just didn't know what to do with it
> commercially.
Yo, Steve-san. I don't mind getting schooled when it is warranted, but
I do like to at least know what it is I'm supposed to be getting
schooled in. Wtf is "the Zappa dichotomy?" *What* thing did Don have
first? What in hebbin's name are you implying?
Regardless, trying to prop Beefheart up against Zappa in any
significant way is just silly. Maybe the guy had reams of potential
and vision and what have you, but Zappa had true genius and realized
it to a degree that is staggering.
Fred
frndthdevl
wrote:
> Jeff ... you started this
lol
frndthdevl
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181523150.8...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-SD5HXZyE&mode=related&search=
>
> these blind youtube links are REALLY lame.
don't click on them.
Lfh
> > these blind youtube links are REALLY lame.
>
> don't click on them.
I gotta agree with Dave here, Jeff. Maybe it's just an idiotsyncracie,
but it seems to me that if you are going to take the trouble to post
something, you might take the extra step and say what it is.
Fred
frndthdevl
> but it seems to me that if you are going to take the trouble to post
> something,
don't click on them
Chris
now that is hip... Bartender,Martini please..
Lfh
wrote:
> > Musical evolution at some level works for me.
> > What influence or new and upcoming sound, did the Bay Area bands from
> > 1967 contribute to in the next few years? Please lay it on me in the
> > same documented way as is documented with many of the LA musicians at
> > that time.
>
> They brought the improvisation of jazz into rock music for one thing.
True as this is, Zappa gets as much credit as they do for bringing in
improv.
Fred
Joe
Los Angeles sucks.
It's a blight on the landscape, an affront to the environment, and the
people who live there wear polyester clothes and sport cheap hair-pieces.
Joe
> I'm just lonesome L.A. cowboy
> Hanging out, and hanging on
> To your window ledge, callin' your name
> >From midnight until dawn
> I been smoking dope, snorting coke
> Trying to write a song
> Forgettin' everything I know
> Till the next line comes along
> Forgetting everything I know
> Till the next line comes along
Yo, Jeff.
Peter Rowan is a long-time resident of Marin County.
But hey, don't let reality cloud your delusions.
Dave Kelly
"Joe" <jo...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5d3tt5F...@mid.individual.net...
> But, but, but...
>
> Los Angeles sucks.
>
> hair-pieces.
Josef....We talkin' about L.A. or Sacramento?
Avant Grape
> On Jun 10, 12:30 pm, Avant Grape <avantgr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The bay area/L.A. rivalry goes way back.
>
>
> I always wondered how much of this spun of the hatred of the Giants/
> Dodgers in NY after it moved out west.
Hah! Either that or good ol' H2O.
-JC
Avant Grape
I'm all about the music dewski. Dissing SoCal is all right by me.
-JC
Avant Grape
> "Avant Grape" <avant...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message:
>
>
>>Don't get me wrong, I'm down with the Haight. But I'm not going to
>>pretend that nothing was going on elsewhere. If you start listening to a
>>lot of music around the world, you'll see that scenes like this were
>>springing up in Brazil, Eastern Europe, Germany, England, etc. It's not
>>like counter-culture started in one central point.
>
>
> Well, I was referring to the American music scene of course, and I'm glad to
> know that the rest of the world was following suit.
I think we followed suit in more ways than one. In South America and
Eastern Europe there were real political revolutions going on where
dictatorships exiled their country's greatest musical stars. Brazil is
a huge example of that. The music wasn't the root of any revolution.
Ideas were. Socialism was a huge influence on the counterculture scenes
which spread across the globe. In America we love to think we're at the
root of every great idea or innovation, but that's simply not true. We
are just better at marketing ourselves.
-JC
frndthdevl
Nobdoy in Nocal can say anything about water when Hetch Hetchy was
destroyed. Without the water headed to LA WW 2 would have been a lot
longer as the power generated from the Colorado and the water from
the Ownes valley sustained the largest military inudstrialization in
history. Of course now Socal is only good for the loud mouth liberal
actors who foster the ideas their lemmings will follow. As they
pretend they are more open mided than republicans. LOL Money wise? LA
COunty supports dem politicans far above the rightous San Francisco
area. hey, this is fun,.
Carlisle
I've enjoyed all your "blind youtube links". Takes all kinds I guess! :-)
Richard Morris
Oh, nice selective editing, Jeff!
Go converse with yourself, then.
Don't forget to lock your doors, though.
Them illegal aliens and democrats are coming to get you!
Richard Morris
Might also have something to do with political leanings ... Northern
California has been historically liberal (although that is changing some),
Southern California has historically been full of right-wing reactionary
paranoid conservatives (although that is changing some too.)
Richard Morris
Dont forget them illegal aliens, man ... you ought to be able to work them
into your rant somehow.
Richard Morris
"band beyond description" <1...@456.com> wrote in message
news:5d4t2qF...@mid.individual.net...
David, David, David ... you disrespect my 'hood?
frndthdevl
wrote:
>
> Dont forget them illegal aliens, man ... you ought to be able to work them
> into your rant somehow.->
better than, ahhhh nevermind
Ray
> "frndthdevl" <frndthd...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
>
> > yeah Gram Parsons, he sucked,
> > Joni Mithcel she sucks
> > CSN oh so plastic. lol
>
> ...another coherent post by this dude....
> anyways...it seems to me that the laurel canyon
> crowd was the 2nd wave of music that came out
> of the haight influence....what does Joni Mitchell have
> to do with the Dead, Airplane, Moby Grape?...
> CSN released they 1st album in 1969....
> Gram Parsons was also a 2nd wave performer...and, I
> might add, a minor player in retrospect...he was with the
> Byrds for what...6 months..."Sweetheart" is a good album,
> but not groundbreaking...Gram did the 1st Burritos album,
> then got used by the Mick/Keef camp...sucking everything out
> of him...he never recovered and withered away.
> I'm more than happy to set you people straight.
> The beers are about chilled...good day.
Ever heard of frank zappa? I'm just wondering.
R
Joe
> better than, ahhhh nevermind
Ding, ding, ding. Time out, for a comment.
Last week's 2 point penalty seems to have worked out well.
Let's put it to the test, though...
Yo, Jeff.
Whatcha think about the war on drugs?
Will he, or won't he, take the bait, rmgd? Let's sit back and see...
Joe
Neil X.
>
> I gotta agree with Dave here, Jeff. Maybe it's just an idiotsyncracie,
> but it seems to me that if you are going to take the trouble to post
> something, you might take the extra step and say what it is.
Yeah, I never click on a blind link. I figure if the poster can't be
bothered to explain why I should follow his link, then why should I
bother to click? Or maybe it was Ted who taught me to behave this
way......
Of course Jeff is free to post in whatever style or manner he wants,
but if he wants to maximize exposure to the thing he's linking to, a
couple of words of explanation would help.
Peace,
Neil X.
Lfh
> > Fred wrote:
>
> > I gotta agree with Dave here, Jeff. Maybe it's just an idiotsyncracie,
> > but it seems to me that if you are going to take the trouble to post
> > something, you might take the extra step and say what it is.
>
> Yeah, I never click on a blind link. I figure if the poster can't be
> bothered to explain why I should follow his link, then why should I
> bother to click?
Don't open them, dood.
> Or maybe it was Ted who taught me to behave this
> way......
Heh. You and me both. Sometimes I forget and get caught up in his
"horsing" around.
> Of course Jeff is free to post in whatever style or manner he wants,
> but if he wants to maximize exposure to the thing he's linking to, a
> couple of words of explanation would help.
Dnot' op ent hem, dued, and sotp being so elitsit and judgemnetal. He
did'tn start it.
Fred
Lfh
> Just jerkin your gherkin, Freddie!
Ah, seeking to place me in something of a pickle, I see. That ain't
kosher, Steve-san. Perhaps you could run this past some dillettante,
but not me.
> I'm not trying to start a civil war
> here,
Heh. T'would be a short one, given the molehill on one side and the
mountain on the other. Again, I'm not trying to diss Don, cause he is
what he is, but he ain't in the same league as Zappa. Then, again, few
are, so there ya go.
> and agree with you on the notion that Beefheart had the
> potential, but I'd didn't know or care about what to do with it.
Well, he had potential, but he didn't have near the breadth or depth
of the ability Zappa had, nor, do I think it is fair to him to make
the comparison.
> However, it must be said that I enjoyed the one Beefheart show I saw,
> in Dec. 1980 at a Milwaukee club where we just mellowly parked
> ourselves on the floor cross-legged at the Magic Band's feet and had a
> great time.
In turn, I must say the one time I saw him with Frank, I can't say I
was impressed. And the one time I saw the Magic Band, opening for
Tull, if memory serves, though it may not, I wasn't any more
impressed. A character, yes, but one that doesn't resonate with me too
much. Mileage.
> Didn't have to deal with larger theatre scenes a la FZ,
> which in the several times I saw him in the late 70s to mid-80s varied
> greatly, both performance-wise (from really funny onstage antics and
> stratospheric guitar, to workmanlike if not boring vocalization shtick
> in some stretches)
Hell, you could get those two poles in the same show, can't ya? I know
what you mean about the vocals thing and the rushing throught certain
crowd favorites. I can say that for every show I saw, 18 of 'em, there
were moments I didn't care for, but they were balanced against great
swaths of rapture and spellbindery, so there ya go again.
But I've never heard anything from Don that approached those kind of
moments in any way, shape, or form.
> and occasional goony security (not ever a problem in
> Chicago, but a bit heavy-handed in DC).
Funny, but for all the hassles I went through or witnessed at Dead
shows, I can't recall a single security issue at a Zappa show ever.
> If Don Van Vliet is happiest
> as a painter, why begrudge him?
I don't begrudge him a bit, and wish him as pallete-able a life as he
can muster.
Fred
Neil X.
>
> Funny, but for all the hassles I went through or witnessed at Dead
> shows, I can't recall a single security issue at a Zappa show ever.
To the outside world, Deadheads were about "peace and love, man," but
as far as I can see, most of them internalized the "don't tread on me"
part of it at least as much as the "are you kind"
part..........NTTAWWT.
Peace,
Neil X,
The old geezer
> Ever heard of frank zappa? I'm just wondering.
>
TOG
Lfh
Ooooooh, yeah. Followed up by many with that daft sense of entitlement
and the comic disbelief whenever their needs weren't fully being met.
Reminds me of my first post back after my hiatus, which was about the
archive issue, but contained this anecdote:
At the final show at the Greek in 89, I was waiting on line for
hours. When the doors opened I dashed to the first row on the
aisle, right across from Healy. Perfect sight, sound, and room
to move. There I waited another two hours.
Just before the show was to start, this guy wanders up and asks
if he can stand there for a minute and look for his friend down
near the stage. Sure, I said.
Two minutes later, the boys come out. "Time to move, dude,"
says I. "Oh, I'm just gonna stay here," he says. Now, instead of
having the space I'd waited for all day, I'm crowded in by this
guy and his gear.
So I tell him, "hey, I've been waiting for six hours to have this
seat. You can't just walk up at show time and expect to grab
the best spot in the house."
He looked at me with disbelief bordering on contempt and
said, "you are so selfish, man. It's everyone's space."
Sure, it is pal.
Fred
JimK
JimK
Democraps. That would be democraps. Get with the program here.
JimK
LP
I can't believe that in all of this discussion, no one has yet pointed
out that the "When You're Goin' to San Francisco" song SUUUUUUUUUCKED!
LP
LP
At one of the last Seattle shows (either '94 or '95) I was in the
place early, and sitting really close on a freind's blanket. The
place filled very slowly, and there was one guy with a HUGE Persian
rug near us, dead center, about 10 feet from the stage. He chased
everyone off this rug for the 2 hours or so of waiting time - anyone
walking through, even if they paused to look where they were stepping,
this super-uptight looking guy shooed them away. I found it both
amusing and annoying, because he was saving a large rectangular area
in the center for people who didn't even show up until the Dead were
PLAYING. No one else deserved this obviously superior head's space.
But at one point, a nice-looking young gal walking to her blanket,
stopped on the forbidden rug to chat with a friend who was on a
bordering blanket. She was just saying "hi" with the obvious
intention of moving on with the huge pepsi cup she had just bought,
when Mr. uptight starts YELLING at her to GET OFF his rug! This was
less than 10 ft. from me. After she told him several times that she
would leave after she was done talking, this A-hole SHOVED her
physically off the blanket and onto her friend.
She spun around and in one motion ripped the cap off the giant, FULL
pepsi cup, and heaved it directly onto him dead center, soaking him
and his rug with sugar-laden soft-drink. As he stood there in
disbelief, I started howling out LOUD laughing almost uncontrollably!
I don't remember what I said to the guy, but he was ASKING for it.
Actually, he was lucky he didn't get his ass kicked for shoving the
girl, but she took care of it in her own way.
Mr. pepsi's friends pushed their way through to him while the Dead
played the first set, too busy drinking elsewhere to actually wait for
the space. Very few people respected it after that.
LP