does Vince suck or what?!?
Gary Beckwith
the Bill Graham Memorial concert at Golden Gate Park.
It seems all he can do is mirror Jerry's riffs, which seems to piss off
Jerry and send him in another direction. The intro to China is horrible
because Vince is playing the exact same notes Jerry is. Or like during
the jam between China Cat and Know You Rider, he's awful - going into
the peak riffs way before anyone is ready to do so. Then there's his
voice, which sounds more like yelling than singing. Where did they get
this guy? Did someone just owe him a favor or something?
Gregsmyth
Mark
>Date: 2/18/2004 5:04 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040218170433...@mb-m20.aol.com>
>
> It's a long, long, long, long, long story.
way to go, homme.
Nate C.
Yeah man, I really fuckin' hate Vince's playing (AND singing). In his
defense though, he never really had a chance to gel with the band. You
can't be just plopped into the Grateful Dead and be expected to instantly
absorb 30 years of evolution that the band went through together.
Nonetheless, they made the WRONG choice when they picked him.
BrklneJpme
handle jerrys junk habit ...vince musta had something the members enjoyed just
like debra koons being married to jerry she musta had something inside that we
didnt see but she made jerry happy why cant heads just be happy instead of
complaing like spoiled children all the time grow up oh nothings ever perfect n
neither are YOU . .
Joker4153
>From: brkln...@aol.com (BrklneJpme)
>Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2004 5:52 PM
>Message-id: <20040218205230...@mb-m04.aol.com>
Half of your posts are complaints (other posters, the composition of the Dead,
too much ABB in the
Dead, blah blah blah), half your posts are complaining about complainers and
the other 82% are simply imcomprehensible.
Maybe there's some relation to which of your various psuedonyms you post under.
A pattern or some meaning to your blatherings...nah, never mind. As long as
you're enjoying yourself and not armed, I'm cool with it.
Larry
:)
Andrew Murawa
It amazes me that nearly 10 years later, Vince's shortcomings are
still a major topic of conversation, able to command several new
threads every month, perhaps the biggest dead-related topic on a
consistent basis.
That being said, the answer to your question in the subject line is
definitely not, "or what?"
BrklneJpme
......pack the bowl n smile ......... ...Jerrys art show in 94 in sf ....mind
melting sht i tell ya ........
Redman5006
>Message-id: <20040218205230...@mb-m04.aol.com>
HRYK
Chip
Gary Beckwith
that. Ever heard his first show? Pretty sweet.
Gary Beckwith
And, I didn't say that Vince wasn't perfect. I said he SUCKED.
Jon0220
still a major topic of conversation, able to command several new
threads every month, perhaps the biggest dead-related topic on a
consistent basis.<
no kidding.
amazes me as well
Lazzaro9
hornsby's presence and overbearing cheezy pounding - talk about not fitting in.
The worse part of Vince wasn't so much WHAT he played but his sounds - all
those midi samples and casio sounds..the carnival sounding shit on Eyes
etc...but he was not alone, the whole band had cheezy sounds during that time.
I remember Jerry's midi- sorry I want to hear guitar not fake flutes or fake
trumpets in Mexicali- I once saw some midi effect of Jerry's that had a synth
"Maxwell's Silver Hammer" sound to it during Ramble on Rose.GROSS.
And the drummers using that Simmons sound.blech- and then the guest musicians.
after Brent the good GD was pretty much over. Seeing them was still great, but
it was never life changing at all IMO.
Gary Beckwith
Lazzaro9 wrote:
>
> Vince wasn't great that's for sure- but he bothered me a lot less than
> hornsby's presence and overbearing cheezy pounding -
I agree. Bruce joining the band would have been a travesty. nothing
but piano. we need Hammond. wawawa.
> The worse part of Vince wasn't so much WHAT he played but his sounds - all
> those midi samples and casio sounds..
yes, but his playing sucked too. it seems like he always mirrors jerry's
licks and riffs.
> etc...but he was not alone, the whole band had cheezy sounds during that time.
> I remember Jerry's midi- sorry I want to hear guitar not fake flutes or fake
> trumpets in Mexicali-
he only mostly did it during space. I didn't mind the flute or trumpet
everyone once in a while as long as it wasn't excessive.
another issue is the "tinny" digital sound that the entire band adopted
in the last 6 years or so. that wasn't much fun. I don't want to go on
a complaining rant (too late?) but I prefered the raunchy sound that
disappeared as they went more and more digital.
When Vince joined the band, I became a JGB fan.
g
tim the squirrel
10 years on and we're all still listening to 90's dead and having
"bleagh!!!!!" moments when vince pops up strongly (and wrongly) in the
mix. he came on to the scene as digital recording was catching on,
maning that his work with the band is very well and clearly preserved
for posterity, good and bad. at the end of it all, the "lifers" in the
band picked him to fill Brent's chair. The "boneheaded moved by the
Dead" thread surfaces again...
tim the squirrel
Garry Bryan
Garry
Jperdue4
>amazes me as well
>
Maybe im amazed at the way vince sucked all the time..
Maybe im amazed at the way they ignored it..
JonP
Phil Zone
90s version of the GD left a lot to be desired when compared to
earlier eras, however, this was due to Jerry's lack of creativity, not
Vince's playing. On the few occasions in the 90s when the band was on,
Vince was as good and as innovative as any of the others.
Jperdue4
holy holy HOLY CRAP!...
JonP
Lazzaro9
Neil Krueger
jper...@aol.com wrote on 2/19/04 4:20 PM:
....and sacred poop!
Peace,
Neil X.
BZLRBI
>Maybe im amazed at the way they ignored it..
Maybe I'm amazed at the way he always butchered songs
Long Way to Go Ho-ome
Maybe I'm amazed at second set piss tunes...
Wondering Fool
"Phil Zone" <phil...@tomrawson.com> wrote in message
news:d2d45796.04021...@posting.google.com...
> I found Vince's playing to be a lot more interesting than Brent's.
Well it depends. Listen to Vince on many "Days Between" and that's stuff
Brent' never came close to. And anybody who says Vince has no talent is just
being close eared.
But Brent also had moments nobody comes close to.
I enjoy them both.
The Dead wanted more keyboards, less piano. Jerry etc all. They wish Keith
didn't just do the piano way when. They got Vince because he played those
keyboards.
Plus Vince is a hell of a nice guy. I remember them saying they wanted
somebody who fit in both personally and musical with the band. And Vince
never causes an issue.
Bone Jak2
I think its bullshit, why did they ask bruce to be a permanent member?
Nate C.
Ummmmmm, nope.
Gregsmyth
from "Playing in the Band" by David Gans and Peter Simon.
Weir: "Keith played acoustic piano almost exclusively. We didn't have an
instrument capable of real sustain, except what Jerry was doing."
Garcia: "Having another percussion instument in an all percussion band was
really too much of the same thing. The effect the piano had on the ensemble was
something we could accomplish with guitars, so what we really needed was
sustain."
Reggie Dunlap
"Nate C." <x...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c13ls4$qs4$1...@lenny.tc.umn.edu...
> > I found Vince's playing to be a lot more interesting than Brent's.
>
> Ummmmmm, nope.
>
<Insert loud Estimated synthesizer noise here>
Nate C.
"Reggie Dunlap" <tmill...@NOSPAMmsn.com> wrote in message
news:103argt...@corp.supernews.com...
Haha, you mean that "sax" sound? What a gem!
JimK
I wasn't crazy about that sound either, but to be fair, at least Vince
tried to shake up some of the keyboard arrangements that had gotten
stale by the end of Brent's run. Unfortunately, he was pretty much hit
or miss, and probably more misses.
JimK
JimK
I always wondered why they always played Vince's tunes, and a lot of
Brent's, too, in the second set. They just disrupted the flow of
things so much, which wouldn't have been a real problem if they were
buried in the middle of the first set.
JimK
Nate C.
"JimK" <jkez...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:f02b30h6qtpne2reb...@4ax.com...
Huh? Maybe my perception's off but it always seemed like Brent's tunes were
mostly played during the first set.
bozo
i.e. a Hammond, not a casio or an accordian
JimK
Thinking of Don't Need Love, I Will Take You Home, Dear Mr. Fantasy,
Blow Away, Hey Pocky Way, Just a Little Light.......all of which I'd
guess were more often than not played during the second set.
JimK
Cozmik Charlie T
"Reggie Dunlap" <tmill...@NOSPAMmsn.com> wrote in message
news:103argt...@corp.supernews.com...
>
This is by far the worst of Vince's transgressions, IMO.
Lazzaro9
Reggie Dunlap
"Lazzaro9" <lazz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040220113023...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> It always sounded like a kazoo to me.
>
> <Insert loud Estimated synthesizer noise here>
Nothing sums up Vince's shortcomings w/ the GD better than that one lame and
horrifyingly annoying riff.
Dee-nuh-neeee-nuh-neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Like fingernails on the chalkboard.
Neil Krueger
jkez...@comcast.net wrote on 2/20/04 10:29 AM:
I don't know for sure, but I'd bet Hey Pocky Way was played in the first set
more often than the second.
Dear Mr. Fantasy/Hey Jude and Blow Away were great for the second set, IMO.
But you're certainly right about I Will Take You Home and Just a Little
Light--these songs would have been so much more palatable as set 1 tunes.
They never, ever fit into the flow of the second set.
Peace,
Neil X.
volkfolk
"Reggie Dunlap" <tmill...@NOSPAMmsn.com> wrote in message
But the real question is, does DSO have a "Vince" and can I buy a CD of him
for $24.95?
Scot
JimK
wrote:
Hey Pocky Way was played 25 times, with the first 12 being in the
first set. 8 out of the last 13 were second set. Fantasy was fine in
the second set. Blow Away worked okay there, but I would rather see it
in the first set. They didn't play it enough to get a real feel for
it, though. I'm not sure Take You Home would be palatable anywhere in
the show.
JimK
Neil Krueger
jkez...@comcast.net wrote on 2/20/04 2:34 PM:
Every time I saw a set 2 Blow Away, it was the set 2 opener. That worked
for me, it brought the energy level right up like a Samson did. It was my
favorite Brent song. Really, I liked hearing it any time they played it.
Indeed, I probably wouldn't have liked JALL and IWTYH in the first set
either....but it's amazing what a nice job PLQ has done with JALL.
Peace,
Neil X.
Gary Beckwith
the keys and a way better voice.
Gary Beckwith
Wondering Fool wrote:
> And anybody who says Vince has no talent is just
> being close eared.
>
I wouldn't say he has no talent, but I would say that he did not fit in
with the dead. he just didn't "get it." He would copy Jerry's leads
and echo them back... he would start into the next jam too soon... his
voice was horrible...
Look, I don't have anything against him and I'm sure he's a nice guy
like you say. But he simply doesn't compare to Brent, period. I don't
think that's opinion. If you listen to some recordings I've heard,
anyone will agree, he's just lost.
Phil Zone
I am one person who does not agree. In fact I feel exactly the
opposite.
In my experience Vince was innovative and interesting while Brent was
much more predictable. To be sure, Brent's sound was predictably good
and nice to listen to, while Vince could sometimes be grating, but
Vince was often the guy who kept things fresh and interesting in the
otherwise boring 90s. I greatly appreciated his musicianship,
creativity and spirit.
I understand you feel differently. You say, "I don't think that's
opinion." Does that mean your experience is unrefutable fact while a
view contrary to yours is merely opinion? Hmmm...
Peter_Wimsey
I was just listening to a '94 Scarlet->Fire and was thinking about how
Vince really added to S-F and to Terrapin. Atmospheric without
crowding... he really added to alot of these more spacey jams in my
opinion. And aside from the lyrics, I thought Samba had potential that
was never really reached in part because of sloppy treatment by the rest
of the band and discouraging chants of "no more Samba" from the crowd.
N
Mejpbrklne4
guys and i have to give him credit by 94 tour he seemed to be having fun n isnt
that what music is supposed to be about anyway having fun making people smile
.....Look at bob phil billy mickey in 94 pulling the tow with Jerry just dying
in front of us guess thats why there so grateful to be playing now it musta
realy been hard for them watching jerry wither away in front of there eyes
....props to them for carrying on the music lets hope for a fuller sounding
band this summer with warrens vocals filling the shoes by the way what size
feet did jerry have ? ....Just curious .....
Redman5006
>I wouldn't say he has no talent, but I would say that he did not fit in
>with the dead. he just didn't "get it." He would copy Jerry's leads
>and echo them back... he would start into the next jam too soon... his
>voice was horrible...
I think the fans point of view is not the same as how the band felt. When they
were looking for a replacement, they liked Vince. He must have been making them
happy or he would not have made it with the band for five years and possibly
longer. I am not a big Vince fan, I like Kieth and Brent much better. I think
the band just wanted to add some new sounds and dementions, it just didnt go
over to well.
Chip
Phil Zone
I am one person who does not agree. In fact I feel exactly the
band beyond description
"Peter_Wimsey" <hay...@duke.edunospam> wrote in message
news:c2i2nk$e2k$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
sometimes Vince did add to it, and sometimes he detracted, in those final
years. Deadhead beggars couldn't be choosers in that period, I suppose.
ymmv...
--
Peace,
~ Steve
"Thinkin a lot about less and less, and forgetting the love we bring..."
"Freak freely"
http://www.ohthethingsiknow.com/book.html
Seth Jackson
wrote:
>I am one person who does not agree. In fact I feel exactly the
>opposite.
>
>In my experience Vince was innovative and interesting while Brent was
>much more predictable. To be sure, Brent's sound was predictably good
>and nice to listen to, while Vince could sometimes be grating, but
>Vince was often the guy who kept things fresh and interesting in the
>otherwise boring 90s. I greatly appreciated his musicianship,
>creativity and spirit.
>
>I understand you feel differently. You say, "I don't think that's
>opinion." Does that mean your experience is unrefutable fact while a
>view contrary to yours is merely opinion? Hmmm...
Count me among the small number of Vince fans. I liked his playing,
but I didn't care much for his voice. Brent's voice was great for
Grateful Dead harmonies.
- Seth Jackson
Songwriting & Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Dylanstubs
He wasn't Brent, and that had a lot of people bummed out. Giving him a
B3 would have helped out with the sound too. But hey, water under the
bridge. I'd take a 1995 show right about now.
Brad Greer
a Dead show, first or second set. Mr. Fantasy clearly belonged in the
second set, and Hey Pocky Way could work well opening either first or
second set, IMO.
Peter_Wimsey
> There is no place that I Will Take You Home would fit into the flow of
> a Dead show, first or second set. Mr. Fantasy clearly belonged in the
> second set, and Hey Pocky Way could work well opening either first or
> second set, IMO.
Two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
tall dude with dreadish hair wearing nothing much besides a skirt doing
an amazing ballet to "I will take you home", and Brent sitting with his
daughter singing it at the Meadowlands (89).
Hey Pocky Way is one of my favorite covers that the Dead made their own,
and Blow Away was kinda rockin. I never cared much for Dear Mr. Fantasy
though.
N
JimK
<hay...@duke.edunospam> wrote:
>Brad Greer wrote:
>
>> There is no place that I Will Take You Home would fit into the flow of
>> a Dead show, first or second set. Mr. Fantasy clearly belonged in the
>> second set, and Hey Pocky Way could work well opening either first or
>> second set, IMO.
>
>Two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
>tall dude with dreadish hair wearing nothing much besides a skirt doing
>an amazing ballet to "I will take you home", and Brent sitting with his
>daughter singing it at the Meadowlands (89).
>
I'm not sure that's something I would have wanted to see.....the
ballet thing, that is.
JimK
Peter_Wimsey
>>Two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
>>tall dude with dreadish hair wearing nothing much besides a skirt doing
>>an amazing ballet to "I will take you home",
>
> I'm not sure that's something I would have wanted to see.....the
> ballet thing, that is.
>
> JimK
Didn't like summer tour much, didya?
N
volkfolk
"Peter_Wimsey" <hay...@duke.edunospam> wrote in message
> Brad Greer wrote:
>
> > There is no place that I Will Take You Home would fit into the flow of
> > a Dead show, first or second set. Mr. Fantasy clearly belonged in the
> > second set, and Hey Pocky Way could work well opening either first or
> > second set, IMO.
>
> Two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
> tall dude with dreadish hair wearing nothing much besides a skirt doing
> an amazing ballet to "I will take you home", and Brent sitting with his
> daughter singing it at the Meadowlands (89).
That was my son's first (and only) Dead concert. He was 11 months old. That
song came at the right point in my life to have a lot of meaning.
I am sure that if I hadn't been a new parent when I heard that song for the
first time I would have really hated it. Instead, I have a real soft spot in
my heart for it
YMMV,
Scot
Sherry
> song came at the right point in my life to have a lot of meaning.
> I am sure that if I hadn't been a new parent when I heard that song for the
> first time I would have really hated it. Instead, I have a real soft spot in
> my heart for it
>
> YMMV,
Evokes the same feelings in me about my kids... and something more - Brent
being gone and thinking about *his* daughters hearing the song, chokes me
right up and I get teary eyed now hearing it on the radio.
Quite a few parents, I think, have a similar feeling for the song. I've met
the eyes of quite a few parents with that tear in their eye and half smile
on their faces.
It may be mush, but your kids turn your heart to mush anyway. <g>
Another song I can't hear without bursting into tears is I Know I Loved You
by Savage Garden. My oldest daughter bought me the cd for my birthday, which
I celebrated in China as I was adopting our youngest. We adopted Thea
because of a series of dreams I had about her back in 1992.... and well
there's... that line that goes...
<sniffling off to get a tissue>
I knew I loved you before I saw you, I dreamed you into life... or something
like that. I haven't heard it in a while, been listening to a lot of the
Stones and Springsteen lately. Power emotions evoked by kids, indeed.
Sherry in Vermont
Lazzaro9
<<<two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
Seth Jackson
<hay...@duke.edunospam> wrote:
>I thought Samba had potential that
>was never really reached in part because of sloppy treatment by the rest
>of the band and discouraging chants of "no more Samba" from the crowd.
Samba had more than just potential. If you want to know how good that
song could be, see 12/16/94.
Seth Jackson
wrote:
>> Two of my great memories are at SPAC (88) when there was this really
>> tall dude with dreadish hair wearing nothing much besides a skirt doing
>> an amazing ballet to "I will take you home", and Brent sitting with his
>> daughter singing it at the Meadowlands (89).
>
>That was my son's first (and only) Dead concert. He was 11 months old. That
>song came at the right point in my life to have a lot of meaning.
>I am sure that if I hadn't been a new parent when I heard that song for the
>first time I would have really hated it. Instead, I have a real soft spot in
>my heart for it
I found that song to be very moving. Still didn't like it as part of
a Dead show, though.
NicksPicks
No, the answer is no.
Vince did/does not suck.
He's pretty talented. Maybe his style wasn't the best fit for the band,
but he definitely contributed. Hell, he partially carried that band in
1995.
It is unfortunate, that the band around him, sucked WAY more often than
he himself did. This was especially true in the later years.
In his first years, he was in the Shadow of Bruce...who had mighty
presence in the mix and on stage. Vinces instruments sounded cheap and
crappy. It didn't help.
Had he had nicer equipment, better sounds, even a better fake Hammond,
things would have been different.
His cover tunes were awesome.
His songs themselves, ...eh. I'll take Samba over W2GH any day!!
That song started to show some real potential, IMO.
Its just a shame, things didn't turn out for him in that band as well as
they certainly could have.
Listen to 9-28-94, "the wheel" and tell me how bad hs sucks! His vocals
are strong.
Too strong? Sometimes. On 9-29, you can hear Jerry saying "don't yell,
don't yell" before they launch into "playin'" , I can only assume he is
addressing Vinces habit of being a little forceful with his backups.
Shit, it took Brent 8 or so years to come out of his "pussy voice"
harmonies before he sounded so soulful.
Joel2756
>His cover tunes were awesome.
>His songs themselves, ...eh. I'll take Samba over W2GH any day!!
>That song started to show some real potential, IMO.
He is a Beatlemaniac.
I still don't like Samba In The Rain - any GD performances, but the MMF CD from
1998 is somewhat better. W2GH - sorry on all counts - it's nerve racking.
>Subject: Re: does Vince suck or what?!?
>From: NicksPicks ni...@nickspicks.com
>Date: 3/14/2004 7:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <zaY4c.3135$CJ5...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
True, I didn't like Brent all that much for the first few years. An exception:
5/7/79 - my 1st time seenig Brent - an open minded suprise.
Joel
Seth Jackson
>W2GH - sorry on all counts - it's nerve racking.
Still better than a lot of Brent's originals. See: Don't Need Love.
Jperdue4
>
>Still better than a lot of Brent's originals. See: Don't Need Love.
>
I like "Dont Need Love".
Jonp
Reggie Dunlop
"Jperdue4" <jper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040317152556...@mb-m25.aol.com...
me too. i like bobby's guitar work on it.
Seth Jackson
One man gathers, etc. I thought it was the worst piece of garbage the
Dead ever performed.
NicksPicks
> One man gathers, etc. I thought it was the worst piece of garbage the
> Dead ever performed.
>
> - Seth Jackson
>
>
id take that over IWTYH any day. that song used to be such a 1990 out
of space buzz kill that followed me from show to show.
Jperdue4
You obviously havent heard what theyre doin to the grateful deads music
today..The dead i mean..
JonP
Seth Jackson
To me, that collection of musicians isn't the Dead, despite the
official name.
revporl
and jarring and his singing was woeful in the extreme. I like Bruce,
especially on Bird song from London Halloween 1990, where Jerrys
guitar and Bruces rippling piano gel really nicely. Brent Myland was
the best all round KB player they ever had, and a wonderful singer to
boot, and some of his songs are great, Just a little light being my
fave.
Mejpbrklne4
Gregsmyth
Use "your" to indicate possession.
Use "you're"
as a shortened form of you are.
The latter would be correct in the above post.