Michelle Shocked on the Grateful Dead and GD culture
David
At the Black Mountain (NC) Folk Festival this
weekend (which is a wonderful twice-yearly music
fest that draws a great number of Grateful Dead
affecionados), folk rock singer Michelle Shocked
had a few choice things to say about the Grateful
Dead and the accompanying culture which I thought
I would share. Before stating this, I should let
you know that I was not familiar with Michelle
Shocked, her music, or her "act" before this, so
I guess its possible that she does this type of
thing to get a reaction (and I have therefore
taken the bait by repeating what she said). Also,
for clarification, the Black Mtn. Festival is not
the same music festival as the one described in
other posts in Marion NC; the Black Mountain festival
was in Flat Rock, NC. Anyway, on Saturday evening,
to a steep hillside (a natural amphitheather) full
of tie-dyed people, Michelle Shocked felt compelled
to share (and I paraphrase) that she doesn't care
for the Grateful Dead herself (her preogative I guess),
but she then went on to say that "they were not
particularly musically great, and some of them are
dead." Although she mentioned the atmosphere of
"openness and tolerance" and the excellent music
she had heard at the festival, she went on to say
that two things she had noted that seemed to
characterize the gathering were the "incessant drums"
and the periodic "Rebel yells" (referring to -- and
misinterpreting -- the yells from partying crowds
and campers). She then went into this tangent
about how "Rebel yells" were an instrument of
intimidation used during the times of war. While
on the soapbox, she also took it upon herself to
address the fact that the crowd was not racially
diverse (as she said, "99.9% white). Now before
she ended, she apologized and said that it had
not been her intention to offend anyone, and said
that she appreciated the fact that so many had
respected "her sincerity" at this festival and
hoped that the atmosphere of "openness and tolerance"
at the festival would extend to letting her express
what was on her mind. And as she said, "You have
quite a little culture going on here." My guess
is that she did regret her comments about the
music of the Grateful Dead (especially after she
saw that she did offend people, a number of whom got
up and left after her comments). However, I'd be
curious about the perceptions of others at the
Festival, and especially what anyone has to say
who likes the music of both Michelle Shocked and
the Dead.
Michael and Genevieve Smith
Seeing as how Michelle Shocked is a no-talent hack whose work is a
derivative pile of dreck I think it's safe to say she can pretty much pound
salt up the oprifice of her choosing.
>but she then went on to say that "they were not
>particularly musically great, and some of them are
>dead."
This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part. Musically, she
hasn't written one song in her pathetic little career that has been
anything more than a cheap ripoff or two-bit homage to folks with real
talent. Janis Joplin could kick her scraggly ass.
>about how "Rebel yells" were an instrument of
>intimidation used during the times of war. While
>on the soapbox, she also took it upon herself to
>address the fact that the crowd was not racially
>diverse (as she said, "99.9% white).
Swell, this from Michelle Shocked who is herself 99.99% white. What an
idiotic, knee-jerk Marxist swine.
Glenn Wells
Michael and Genevieve Smith wrote:
> What an
> idiotic, knee-jerk Marxist swine.
Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo, Gummo and I blew our slop over this one!
--
Glenn Wells
Gordon Gullahorn
On Tue, 27 May 1997, <the truly pathetic> Michael and Genevieve Smith wrote:
> > While
> >on the soapbox, she also took it upon herself to
> >address the fact that the crowd was not racially
> >diverse (as she said, "99.9% white).
>
> Swell, this from Michelle Shocked who is herself 99.99% white. What an
> idiotic, knee-jerk Marxist swine.
Two points:
(1) Michelle is a born again Christian. Last I heard they was mostly
agin' Marxism.
(2) You have to be Marxist to be against racism?
Go pound salt up your own white-sheeted orifice, dixie-boy.
Michael and Genevieve Smith
Gordie dear,
I'm neither a racist nor a sheet-wearer--but I do find it a tad absurd for
Michelle Shocked or anyone else to be berating a group of people for their
racial makeup, whatever it may be (unless it was a KKK group that was
getting the richly deserved berating!).
The most "truly pathetic" thing here is Michelle Shocked's remark that the
GD had no musical talent. This from a thin-voiced, uninventive two-bit
moanin' and groanin' coffehouse refugee. For someone who'd create an
abomination like "Captain Swing" (and man, that record couldn't swing from
a noose, as they say in the big bands) to be standing up on a stage ragging
on the Deadheads in the audience for their race -- and believe you me, I
wouldn't care what that race was -- and ragging on the Dead as a bunch of
no-talents -- now that IS pathetic. Call me when somebody besides you and a
handful of coffee-soaked Village Voice critics gives a damn about Michelle
Shocked's pretentions.
And you, Gordie, with your precious little folksy/slangy written dialect
(they're mostly agin'). You're just too cute!
For you to imply that the people in that audience pratice or condone racism
just because they all showed up and they all have the same skin color is
really too much. Try that logic on at the next Toni Braxton or Coolio
concert, and see how it fits. I'd assume you'd think that if the audience
there was 99% black, they'd be racist too? It's about the music, not about
the skin color, and short of physically dragging Braxton attendees to
Michelle Shocked's show and vice versa, I don't know how to address that. I
do know that standing up on a stage and bitching to a folkie crowd that
they're all white people doesn't do much to help. What's more it's like
preaching to the choir--I bet those folks mostly are out there fighting the
good fight against racism in their lives daily, like most of the heads I
have known. It's hardly the audience's fault if Michelle Shocked and
company are not a big draw amongst the African American community.
Our musical tastes may differ, but I certainly resent your remarks made on
a personal level. Just as one doesn't have to be a Marxist to be against
racism one doesn't have to belong to the KKK to recognize a half-assed
remark from the top of a soapbox when one hears one. I myself am "mostly
agin'" soapboxes--so I'll clamber off this one now.
Gordon Gullahorn wrote in article ...
David Cameron
I seem to recall that Michelle Shocked played with Bob and Rob on their
summer tour a few years ago. I always thought she was positive about the
Dead scene. These comments surprise me a bit ... maybe she was just
having a bad day, or had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
the show. ;)
take care,
dave
--
_____________
David Cameron
Department of Sociology,
McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
jeff tiedrich
In article <5mei39$lvg$1...@kirin.wwa.com>, "Michael and Genevieve Smith"
<mrm...@wwa.com> wrote:
> Seeing as how Michelle Shocked is a no-talent hack whose work is a
> derivative pile of dreck I think it's safe to say she can pretty much pound
> salt up the oprifice of her choosing.
>
> >but she then went on to say that "they were not
> >particularly musically great, and some of them are
> >dead."
>
> This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part.
What's the difference between her remark and your remark, Mr. Pot Kettleblack?
.tiedrich
--
je...@tiedrich.com - http://www.tiedrich.com/ "Get your nose out of
see the Resources For Tape Traders web tiedrich's ass -- he's
page at http://www.tiedrich.com/tapelist/ a jerk!" -- anonymous
Michael and Genevieve Smith
The diff would be that I'm not climbing up on a stage declaiming it to a
bunch of Michelle Shockedheads. Or whatever.
jeff tiedrich wrote in article ...
Keith Lane Wigington
David wrote:
>
> up and left after her comments). However, I'd be
> curious about the perceptions of others at the
> Festival, and especially what anyone has to say
> who likes the music of both Michelle Shocked and
> the Dead.
Very strange behaviour from a performer who I have enjoyed very much in
recent years. There have been reports of very strange behavior at
concerts-her getting upset over the lack of racial diversity and leaving
the stage after only a few songs. To insult the Dead on stage is very
peculiar and alarming as well. As I said I very much like her-and the
two concersts of hers I've seen in the past year were wonderful-but she
seems to be overflowing woth emotion at times and it seems like she
literaly loses it on stage and freaks out. Strange how this seems to
happen somewhere she plays every few months-almost like a contrived act
to get attention, cause contoversy, or just a very failed attempt at
cutting edge humor. It really worries me that she will totaly lose it
for good one day on the road and do something even more self
destructive. Weird-definitly weird. When I first heard this I was very
angry-now I feel kinda sorry for her-pathetic.
Keith
GTkeenan
Karl Marx and I had a good laugh over this post:
GK
about how "Rebel yells" were an instrument of
>intimidation used during the times of war. While
>on the soapbox, she also took it upon herself to
>address the fact that the crowd was not racially
>diverse (as she said, "99.9% white).
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
jeff tiedrich
In article <5mg6d6$kk8$1...@kirin.wwa.com>, "Michael and Genevieve Smith"
<mrm...@wwa.com> wrote:
> jeff tiedrich wrote in article ...
>
> >>
> >> This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part.
> >
> >What's the difference between her remark and your remark, Mr. Pot
> Kettleblack?
> >
> > .tiedrich
> >
> The diff would be that I'm not climbing up on a stage declaiming it to a
> bunch of Michelle Shockedheads. Or whatever.
This newsgroup probably has a larger audience than a Michelle Shocked concert.
Michael and Genevieve Smith
Indeed, but not comprised chiefly of Michelle Shocked fans. In other words,
I wouldn't go to the Michelle Shocked newsgroup, if there is one, and bitch
about what she has to say about the Dead. If Jerry had said, "Michelle
Shocked is not fit to wash the skidmarks out of my skivvies," I might go to
her newsgroup and bitch about what Jerry said, although of course he never
would have said such a thing.
Steallight
multiple sources state:
>>about how "Rebel yells" were an instrument of
>intimidation used during the times of war. While
>on the soapbox, she also took it upon herself to
>address the fact that the crowd was not racially
>diverse (as she said, "99.9% white).
>>Swell, this from Michelle Shocked who is herself 99.99% white. What an
>>idiotic, knee-jerk Marxist swine.
Been my experience that very few african americans are heavily enough into
white performers' folk music to spend the bucks to attend events. By the
same token, I don't spend a cent on rap artists or hip-hop but lots of
money on tapes to copy Dead music and lots on vault releases.
Has nought to do with racism ( I think that rap and hip-hop are boring
musically as well as culturally objectionable - to my culture ) Suspect
most people who don't buy into an artist or a music genre feel something
similar.
Minorities are so-called because of demographic numbers. Makes sense
to me that they are going to be under-represented in some audiences.
long live Leon Trotsky!
Happily dancing in the Phil Zone and scattering Garcia Ashes!
S Lenon ( for anyone who gives a damn)
Chris Neylan
Some Michelle Shocked music is absolutely wonderful. The Arkansas
Traveller album and especially her first one. I like her music and I love
the dead. She has the right to her opinion regardless of whether you
agree or not, and since she's not here to tell her side this argument is
kinda one sided eh! (yes I am a Canadian) Since I would guess most people
here are fans of the dead. Besides I don't think dead music really needs
defending, I don't think anyone would change their mind about it just
because of what Michelle Shocked said. So save your petty cheap-shots for
the sandbox.
Chris.
====================================================
* Christopher David Neylan - yu10...@yorku.ca *
"Some may find them merely diverting melodies. Others may find them
incitements to Red revolution. And who will say if either or both is wrong?
Not I."
- Pete Seeger in Rolling Stone on April 13, 1972
====================================================
Michael and Genevieve Smith
Steallight wrote in article <19970528132...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
...
> Has nought to do with racism ( I think that rap and hip-hop are boring
>musically as well as culturally objectionable - to my culture ) Suspect
>most people who don't buy into an artist or a music genre feel something
>similar.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. That's why I think that berating an
audience about it is baiting at worst, and ill-advised at best. In this
case I found it just pretentious.
Michael and Genevieve Smith
So save your petty cheap-shots for
>the sandbox.
>Chris.
If only Michelle Shocked were here, you could share the same advice with
her! In this whole exchange, I've been amused by the number of responses
which stress that Michelle Shocked is "entitled to her opinion" while
castigating me for expressing mine.
John Christopher Little
"Michael and Genevieve Smith" <mrm...@wwa.com> wrote:
1. Two wrongs don't make a right.
2. I believe your respose called her something like a knee-jerk
marxist swine (which please explain the Marx
relationship, I don't understand the relationship or were
you just being mean)
3. At least she apoligized
Bill Patton
I-don't-know-who wrote:
}If only Michelle Shocked were here, you could share the same advice with
}her! In this whole exchange, I've been amused by the number of responses
}which stress that Michelle Shocked is "entitled to her opinion" while
}castigating me for expressing mine.
IMHO, the people who were castigating you were of the opinion that your
opinion was that Michelle Shocked was not entitled to her opinion, in
which case, my opinion is that you are not entitled to that opinion.
I always sort of regarded Michelle Shocked as somewhat petty and annoying
(along the same lines as Billy Bragg) --until, that is, I caught one of
her shows a couple years back at the Bumbershoot festival. It seemed
heavily choreographed, right down to the between-song banter. But it
sure was a hell-of-a-lot-a fun. I was duly impressed. The woman's
got real Stage Presence! Her rantings were, indeed, a little pretentious,
but the songs and the playing spoke for themselves.
As far as what you paraphrased from her smearing of the "Dead culture",
I think I'd be inclined to agree with her.
"Yeeeeeeeeaaa HAW!"
-Bill
(at least she didn't say we were dirty)
Heather Help The Fool
je...@tiedrich.com (jeff tiedrich) wrote:
>In article <5mei39$lvg$1...@kirin.wwa.com>, "Michael and Genevieve Smith"
><mrm...@wwa.com> wrote:
>> Seeing as how Michelle Shocked is a no-talent hack whose work is a
>> derivative pile of dreck I think it's safe to say she can pretty much pound
>> salt up the oprifice of her choosing.
>>
>> >but she then went on to say that "they were not
>> >particularly musically great, and some of them are
>> >dead."
>>
>> This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part.
>What's the difference between her remark and your remark, Mr. Pot Kettleblack?
> .tiedrich
You forgot to tell him that some of him is dead.
HHTF
Heather Help The Fool
yu10...@yorku.ca (Chris Neylan) wrote:
So save your petty cheap-shots for
>the sandbox.
I tried telling that to my cat. He muttered something about Michelle
Shocked sucking really badly, and that I ever buy one of her cd's,
he'll spray the whole cd drawer. Sorry Michelle, can't take that
risk.
David Pelovitz
: >> This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part.
: >
: >What's the difference between her remark and your remark, Mr. Pot
: Kettleblack?
: The diff would be that I'm not climbing up on a stage declaiming it to a
: bunch of Michelle Shockedheads. Or whatever.
True. You're preaching to the choir, which is much more cowardly
than what Ms. Shocked did. However, that is not a difference
in the remarks, just where they were made. .t's still got
you on the pot-kettle-black thing.
David Pelovitz, Ph.D. - pelo...@gusun.georgetown.edu
"Paranoids are not paranoids (Proverb 5) because they're paranoid,
but because they keep putting themselves, fucking idiots
deliberately into paranoid situations." - Thomas Pynchon
Melissa L. Richart
> David <da...@please.don't.send.me.junk.email> wrote in article
<338a4...@news1.ibm.net>...
> At the Black Mountain (NC) Folk Festival this
> weekend (which is a wonderful twice-yearly music
> fest that draws a great number of Grateful Dead
> affecionados), folk rock singer Michelle Shocked
> had a few choice things to say about the Grateful
> Dead and the accompanying culture which I thought
> I would share.
A little off the subject...but I went to see Merl Saunders & the RFB the
night before at the BMMF. It was wonderful! It really made up for my
crappy night at the Greenlee Festival.
Melissa
Todd Brown
>had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
>the show. ;)
Orange? Bad? Never!
PEACE, faith,
FURTHUR----------------------------------------------------THRIVE!!!!!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>TODD|-ODD-|:-) | Nothing Left To Do But <
>br...@sunspot.noao.edu /|\ :-) :-) :-) <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/ | \<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
John Christopher Little
br...@sunspot.noao.edu (Todd Brown) wrote:
>In article <EAupC...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> dcam...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (David Cameron) writes:
>>
>
>>had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
>>the show. ;)
>
>
>Orange? Bad? Never!
>
>
That kool-aid in Jonestown wasn't so hot!
jeff tiedrich
In article <338f27ef...@news.mindspring.com>, cli...@mindspring.com
wrote:
The Heaven's Gate people and I had a good laugh at this post.
George Shannon
John Christopher Little wrote:
>
> br...@sunspot.noao.edu (Todd Brown) wrote:
>
> >In article <EAupC...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> dcam...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (David Cameron) writes:
> >>
> >
> >>had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
> >>the show. ;)
> >
> >
> >Orange? Bad? Never!
> >
> >
> That kool-aid in Jonestown wasn't so hot!
Everybody knows that kool-aid was grape. Pay attention John.
later,
george
Seth Jackson
On Tue, 27 May 1997 21:45:02 -0500, "Michael and Genevieve Smith"
<mrm...@wwa.com> wrote:
:The diff would be that I'm not climbing up on a stage declaiming it to a
:bunch of Michelle Shockedheads. Or whatever.
: jeff tiedrich wrote in article ...
No, no! The diff would be that what you said is true! :^)
:>>
:>> This is an insensitive and pretentious remark on her part.
:>
:>What's the difference between her remark and your remark, Mr. Pot
:Kettleblack?
:>
:> .tiedrich
:>
:
:
:
--
Seth Jackson
Seth Jackson's Songwriting Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/speaker
Songwriting and the Music Business, plus the Online "Country Notes" for the Los Angeles area
Michael and Genevieve Smith
>
>True. You're preaching to the choir, which is much more cowardly
>than what Ms. Shocked did. However, that is not a difference
>in the remarks, just where they were made. .t's still got
>you on the pot-kettle-black thing.
>
>David Pelovitz, Ph.D. - pelo...@gusun.georgetown.edu
>"Paranoids are not paranoids (Proverb 5) because they're paranoid,
In the main I think that altogether too much energy is wasted on this sort
of round and round banter... amusing though it is. I was going to get all
indignant and huff and puff about how ludicrous and silly it is to ascribe
words like "cowardly" or "brave" to the kind of self-indulgent windbaggery
both Shocked and I are now guilty of, when I suddenly realized that it
would be even more silly to get indignant about it. So now, I'm being even
sillier by wasting my time explaining why I won't... ah, fuck it. Res ipsa
loquitor.
Raymond V. Liedka
Oh, dear....and I just made a pitcher of grape kool-aid this morning.
Now I'll have to dump it out when I get home!!
Um....is the Black Cherry O.K.?
Raymond V. Liedka
Department of Sociology
University of New Mexico
Stowick
On Fri, 30 May 1997, George Shannon wrote:
> John Christopher Little wrote:
> >
> > br...@sunspot.noao.edu (Todd Brown) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <EAupC...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> dcam...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (David Cameron) writes:
> > >>
> > >
> > >>had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
> > >>the show. ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >Orange? Bad? Never!
> > >
> > >
> > That kool-aid in Jonestown wasn't so hot!
>
> Everybody knows that kool-aid was grape. Pay attention John.
yes, but was it electric? In a blind taste-test all cool-aid tastes like
sugar.
>
> later,
> george
>
>
Sincerely,
Aaron G. Stolz (Still only first mate on the Ship of Fools)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|Hey! Check out my web page at http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~stolz |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| _____ |
| / \ |
| /| @ @ |\ --->I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself.|
| /|| 0 ||\ I am large. I contain multitudes. |
| /|/\ \_/ /\|\ -Walt Whitman |
| * /\___/\ * |
| \/|||\/ |
| ~~~~~ |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|"You say you want a revolution? Well, you know..."- John Lennon |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Todd Brown
In article <338f27ef...@news.mindspring.com> cli...@mindspring.com writes:
>br...@sunspot.noao.edu (Todd Brown) wrote:
>
>>In article <EAupC...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca> dcam...@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (David Cameron) writes:
>>>
>>
>>>had been given some of the bad orange kool-aid before
>>>the show. ;)
>>
>>
>>Orange? Bad? Never!
>>
>>
>That kool-aid in Jonestown wasn't so hot!
It was orange?
Then don't go to Jonestown.
