Wave to the Wind: Worst Dead Song Ever?

[auxarmeslescitoyens]

Touch Head Lemieux chose to play 3-28-93 (Albany) on Today in GD History this morning. Seems like he's played this run all week. I guess he was blissed out at these shows.

Anyway, it struck me that Wave to the Wind just might be the worst Dead original ever, at least it was played live. The music and the vocals just suck. And the lyrics ain't all that great.

Dare to hear for yourself:

http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-28.sbd.gans.miller.96215.sbeok.flac16

[MichaelT...@yahoo.com]

>  http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-28.sbd.gans.miller.96215.sbeok.f...

Hard to argue with that. It's like they dosed "McArthur Park" and put
it in a blender. All it's missing is a cake in the rain. ;)

[dr.narcolepsy]

I won't. I will not do that.

I'm going to have to listen to this 12/7/99 Halley's Comet, again, just to get even the thought of listening to that out of my head:
http://phishthoughts.com/download.php?f=2012/12/02-Halleys-Comet-12.7.99.mp3

[Just Kidding]

With all due respect to Phil, "If the Shoe Fits" is probably as bad if
not worse than "Wave to the Wind".

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 28, 2013 9:22:43 PM UTC-7, Just Kidding wrote:

> With all due respect to Phil, "If the Shoe Fits" is probably as bad if
> not worse than "Wave to the Wind".

And Childhood's End is right up there.

Of the three, Wave to the Wind is probably the "best".

[David Cohen]

Phil co-wrote a few great songs, and is a great bass player. I'm
willing to cut him some slack on his lame songs.

What I'd really like to hear is some of the modern classical stuff he
wrote before he joined the Dead.

[Brad Greer]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:55:17 -0700 (PDT), amur...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Thursday, March 28, 2013 9:22:43 PM UTC-7, Just Kidding wrote:
>
>> With all due respect to Phil, "If the Shoe Fits" is probably as bad if
>> not worse than "Wave to the Wind".
>
>And Childhood's End is right up there.
>

I generally agree on Childhood's End, but the acoustic version they
did in '94 (at the first "Phil and Friends" show) was actually pretty
good.

[Olompali4]

On Thursday, March 28, 2013 9:16:18 PM UTC-6, auxarmeslescitoyens wrote:
> Touch Head Lemieux .....

Love that.
: )

[Olompali4]

Ha!..judging from the setlists in past 15 years, I'd say Lesh is more of prog/arena rock guy than a avant/classicist.
He's up there with Bob "I have 103 new tunes all ready to go" Weir when it comes to talking up their creativity.

[bzl...@aaool.com]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 06:38:59 -0400, Brad Greer <jjh1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.

Wave had some good jams, imo. It always reminded me of George
Harrison's "It's All Too Much" (which they eventually started doing).

But, overall there was certainly a whole lot of bad songs to get
through after 1991.

[Ed Chapin]

On 3/29/2013 8:26 AM, bzl...@aaool.com wrote:

>
> I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
> higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
> 3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.
>

No argument here, especially regarding Eternity; the background vocals
on that one always reminded me of starving ghoulish prisoners chanting
misery whilst chained to the wall in a dark, dank underground tomb. Yuck!

Come to think of it, Corinna wasn't much better regarding the background
vocals, but it could get into a really nice jam/groove once the band
finally STFU.

However, to qualify the weak foundation of my opinion, I have only heard
a couple versions of each, as I generally don't go out of my way to seek
out tunes that didn't impress me the first few times--and I only saw 5
shows in the 1990s, all in 1994.

> Wave had some good jams, imo. It always reminded me of George
> Harrison's "It's All Too Much" (which they eventually started doing).
>

Lyrically, it reminded me a bit of Hunter's epic poem, "Flight of the
Marie Helena."

Of course, Hunter did write both of them.

"Flight of the Marie Helena" is, incidentally, my absolute favorite work
in all of Grateful Dead Land.

I know, I know. I'm crazy--and I love it ;-)

Ed

Following material excerpted from "Flight of the Marie Helena"
http://www.hunterarchive.com/files/Poetry/flightofMH.html

Waving at a passing raft
where reflections of ourselves
wave back a tear stained flag
hung from a rope of onions.

Waving to the flippers of
seven silver silkies who
have tracked our wake all day,
now going separate ways.

Waving to children with gold
eyes upon a seaside carousel
who persue one another in
stationary joy with screams of laughter.

Waving at a superior one step epoxy,
good for bonding stainless steel to water.
Good for gluing the shoreline to the sea.

Waving at an Italian
organ grinder in a skip.
His ape returns our wave
with his glass beaded cap.

Waving at a public nuisance
spraypainting the rainbow and
to seagulls circling counter to the
spinning wake of the Marie Helena.

Waving to a dark steamer,
dim even by unclouded sun.
Something waves back, or
perhaps it is a curtain.

Waving to the crucified
who lifts a finger in reply.
Waving to a blue, blue island which
was once our heart's desire.

Waving to a solitary gunman,
whose eye, magnified, winks
from the crosshair sight
trained in our midst.

Waving to an inflatable giraffe
bearing a poet in beret and shades
reciting, beating holy hell
out of a conga drum.

Waving to a foiled villain,
cloak and tophat streaming,
hissing as he twirls the points
of his elaborate mustache.

Waving, waving, waving
at a lei of golden blossoms
suspended in mid air,
poised in indecision.

When we'd finished waving,
we danced to the creak of
an iron gate; danced to the clank
of the lid upon a boiling kettle.

[Just Kidding]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:28:39 -0400, Ed Chapin <edcha...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/29/2013 8:26 AM, bzl...@aaool.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
>> higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
>> 3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.
>>
>
>No argument here, especially regarding Eternity; the background vocals
>on that one always reminded me of starving ghoulish prisoners chanting
>misery whilst chained to the wall in a dark, dank underground tomb. Yuck!
>
>Come to think of it, Corinna wasn't much better regarding the background
>vocals, but it could get into a really nice jam/groove once the band
>finally STFU.
>
>However, to qualify the weak foundation of my opinion, I have only heard
>a couple versions of each, as I generally don't go out of my way to seek
>out tunes that didn't impress me the first few times--and I only saw 5
>shows in the 1990s, all in 1994.

I think Corinna would have made a fine instrumental. If you only have
time to listen to one, check out Chicago 93:

http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-10.120543.sbd.miller.flac16

[Ed Chapin]

On 3/29/2013 9:28 AM, Ed Chapin wrote:

>
> However, to qualify the weak foundation of my opinion, I have only heard
> a couple versions of each, as I generally don't go out of my way to seek
> out tunes that didn't impress me the first few times--and I only saw 5
> shows in the 1990s, all in 1994.
>

In strict accordance with the Gregorian calendar, I suppose I
technically saw 6 GD shows in the 1990s, as I also attended the 7/14/90
show in Foxborough, MA. Of course, as every Deadhead right well knows,
the 1980s stretched from May 1979 through July 1990.

Ed

[James Pablos]

>  http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-28.sbd.gans.miller.96215.sbeok.f...

Given that I'm still devoting 99% of my listening time to 1995, this
sounds *heavenly* to me. Perspective and all that...

[David Cohen]

Yeah, he never went back to writing avant- classical after the Dead,
although he did support it through the Rex foundation. But he did
write at least one piece when he and TC were studying under Luciano
Berio. I think it's called "Foci for 4 orchestras" or something like
that. I've always been curious to hear it.

The BBC produced an hour-long show in the early 90's called "The
Grateful and the Dead" about Lesh/Rex's support of modern classical
English composers, both the New Complexity school and some older
English moderns who were somewhat overlooked, such as Havergal Brian,
Bernard Stevens, and Robert Simpson.

[David Cohen]

On Mar 29, 8:26 am, bzl...@aaool.com wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 06:38:59 -0400, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:

>
> >On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:55:17 -0700 (PDT), amuraw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>On Thursday, March 28, 2013 9:22:43 PM UTC-7, Just Kidding wrote:
>
> >>> With all due respect to Phil, "If the Shoe Fits" is probably as bad if
> >>> not worse than "Wave to the Wind".
>
> >>And Childhood's End is right up there.
>
> >I generally agree on Childhood's End, but the acoustic version they
> >did in '94 (at the first "Phil and Friends" show) was actually pretty
> >good.
>
> I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
> higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
> 3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.
>
> Wave had some good jams, imo.  It always reminded me of George
> Harrison's "It's All Too Much" (which they eventually started doing).
>
> But, overall there was certainly a whole lot of bad songs to get
> through after 1991.

I don't know how you can rate Wave to the Wind higher than Lazy River
Road, which I think one of the better late-Garcia/Hunter songs. I
first heard it around the time that I first rode a "Lazy River" at one
of the Florida water parks, and I've always associated the two. Not
the most exciting song/ride, but very pleasant and relaxing.

[yoker]

On Mar 28, 11:16 pm, auxarmeslescitoyens <steven1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Touch Head Lemieux chose to play ...

"Wave To The Wind" is amongst my LEAST favorite GD original songs &
covers.

In retospect, the fact that the "In The Dark" album was even released
is a sad point for me, as right now I am in a very depressed mood.
"Reckoning" is a very good release;
"Dead Set" is good, but a very anticeptic clean sounding piece of $#!
*;
"In The Dark" sucks big time right now
"Built To Last" don't get me started ...
"Without A Net" medeocre at best ...

Goodness returns with "One From The Vault": 8/13/75 and most of the
Dick's Picks releases and just about all of the vault releases.
A so-called "rule of thumb" for the moment is that:
just about all original songs written after 1982 suck; just about
every non-original song they covered isn't all that good, except for
the Bob Dylan catalogue. In that catagory, the GD are the best at
doing Dylan.

[highgreenchilly]

Cheesy Answers for the win. Worst song ever. I actually really like some of Jerry's stuff from this time. So Many Roads was nice.

[Just Kidding]

Yeah. LRR was a solid first setter, although without the emotional
impact of So Many Roads. Like Corinna, the instrumental part of
Eternity was fine, it's just that the vocals were very so-so. Hard to
believe Willie Dixon co-wrote it.

[Just Kidding]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:06:10 -0700 (PDT), highgreenchilly
<ddim...@me.com> wrote:

>Cheesy Answers for the win. Worst song ever. I actually really like some of Jerry's stuff from this time. So Many Roads was nice.

Bingo! Wave to the Wind and those other late Phil songs weren't very
good, but at least they were inoffensive. Easy Answers could make you
cringe and would destroy a whole set.

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 5:26:53 AM UTC-7, bzl...@aaool.com wrote:

> I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
> higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
> 3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.

I'd take all of those over any of Childhood's End, Wave to the Wind or If The Shoe Fits, with the possible exception of Long Long Long Long... Which is a song I probably wouldn't have hated nearly as much if they hadn't played it every fucking show.

And Corinna may as well be Like A Rolling Stone compared to the rest of that lot.

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 11:06:10 AM UTC-7, highgreenchilly wrote:
> Cheesy Answers for the win. Worst song ever. I actually really like some of Jerry's stuff from this time. So Many Roads was nice.

Oh geez. I had completely blocked Easy Answers from my mind. Thanks for bringing that one back. Guh.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

I liked Victim.

[the Felonious Kidd]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 10:12:21 AM UTC-7, yoker wrote:

> A so-called "rule of thumb" for the moment is that:
> just about all original songs written after 1982 suck; just about
> every non-original song they covered isn't all that good, except for
> the Bob Dylan catalogue. In that catagory, the GD are the best at
> doing Dylan.

Yeah just about every deadhead I know thinks that Dead covers of songs like; Morning Dew, Viola Lee Blues, Good Morning Little School Girl, Cold Rain and Snow, Beat it on Down the Line, New, New Minglewood Blues, Big Railroad Blues, Big Boss Man, Not Fade Away, Don't Ease Me In, Deep Elem Blues, Goin' Down the Road Feeling Bad, Hard to Handle, Spoonful, Samson and Delilah, Smokestack Lightning, Turn on Your Love Light, Man Smart Woman Smarter, Promised Land, Around and Around, Death Don't Have No Mercy.... all pretty much suck.

[highgreenchilly]

Victim was kind of interesting actually. Cool chord progression.

[highgreenchilly]

I agree with the Kid. The GD turned me on to so much cool American music.

[James Pablos]

I think Yoker was talking about post-1982 covers... ? The Beatles
stuff, IFTL, Broken Arrow, etc.

[dr.narcolepsy]

Yeah, but now we know that TFK thinks highly of Women are Smarter.

[Brad Greer]

He wrote modern classical before he joined the Dead - you have to have
some serious ability to be invited by Luciano Berio to take a class.

[Ed Chapin]

On 3/29/2013 10:01 AM, Just Kidding wrote:

>
> I think Corinna would have made a fine instrumental. If you only have
> time to listen to one, check out Chicago 93:
>
> http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-10.120543.sbd.miller.flac16
>

Thanks. I can certainly see the instrumental potential here, and I may
have been a bit harsh on late-era GD vocals in general--but not by much
;-) You are, of course, correct, in that this is a quite worthy take on
the song.

As regards the OP, I realized a short while ago that I have had a nice
AUD of that show sitting in the closet for the past ten years (courtesy
of Mr. Georges), and just revisited the "So Many Roads." Jerry could
still belt it out on occasion, even in 1993.

Generally speaking, though, I never wrapped my heart and soul around the
later material. Lately, I haven't been able to wrap my heart and soul
around any GD music. For the past couple of months, car is loaded with
"Water Music," "Music for the Royal Fireworks," "Kind of Blue,"
"Americana," and "Graceland." Local college stations provide some
quirky relief, on occasion. I almost popped in Disc 3 of 11/29/80 last
week, but couldn't quite do it. I trust, however, that this is a
temporary condition.

Tonight, I am going to revisit "Flight of the Marie Helena." That is
always a worthwhile journey and one I haven't taken for several years.

Cheerio,
Ed

[Edwin Hurwitz]

Are you just a glutton for punishment? Spend some time in '73. You'll thank me later.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

I couldn't believe they were doing IFTL and Louie Louie. Whatever. They really settled into being the world's biggest garage band for a while.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article <06497be1-a978-4e11...@googlegroups.com>, highgreenchilly <ddim...@me.com> wrote:

> Victim was kind of interesting actually. Cool chord progression.

Yeah, it was a new flavor and they played it with some teeth.

[Olompali4]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 7:28:39 AM UTC-6, Ed Chapin wrote:


>
> No argument here, especially regarding Eternity; the background vocals
>
> on that one always reminded me of starving ghoulish prisoners chanting
>
> misery whilst chained to the wall in a dark, dank underground tomb. Yuck!
>

Exactly! I came around to Eternity when I realized it was a Cab Calloway tune for a Betty Boop cartoon.

[Olompali4]

On Friday, March 29, 2013 7:22:10 PM UTC-6, Brad Greer wrote:

>
> He wrote modern classical before he joined the Dead - you have to have
>
> some serious ability to be invited by Luciano Berio to take a class.

Where's the music? And one or two pieces ain't gonna' cut it for a composer.
As to Berio, he was probably amazed that a young American or two even knew who he was. I doubt the class had hundreds of applicants. Likely ten.
Lesh sucking up wouldn't hurt.
Seriously, I expected, post Garcia, that Lesh would have composed and released a bunch of avant-garde/classical type music. Or even spacey ambient. Instead we got FM radio classic rock covers and the Garcia Hunter songbook.
Weir who wrote some Dead classic also dried up basically when it came to new material
Perhaps just as well. It's doubtful newer or even most heads would attend shows that didn't have recognizable tunes.

[iL_WeReo]

On Mar 28, 11:16 pm, auxarmeslescitoyens <steven1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Touch Head Lemieux chose to play 3-28-93 (Albany) on Today in GD History this morning. Seems like he's played this run all week. I guess he was blissed out at these shows.
>
> Anyway, it struck me that Wave to the Wind just might be the worst Dead original ever, at least it was played live. The music and the vocals just suck. And the lyrics ain't all that great.
>
> Dare to hear for yourself:
>
>  http://archive.org/details/gd1993-03-28.sbd.gans.miller.96215.sbeok.f...

AWL of the Grateful Dead stuff is Worst Dead Song Ever...???

[iL_WeReo]

On Mar 30, 4:27 am, Edwin Hurwitz <ed...@indra.com> wrote:

Instead of just TALKING about it, I'm the only one who shot film in
1973. I am the only one who matters in and around the cameras.

[B]

<amur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And Childhood's End is right up there.

But a great Pink Floyd tune.

[Ed Chapin]

Thanks for a good Saturday morning laugh :-)

Boop-oop-a-doop,
Ed

http://archive.org/details/bb_minnie_the_moocher

[Brad Greer]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 04:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Olompali4
<olom...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Friday, March 29, 2013 7:22:10 PM UTC-6, Brad Greer wrote:
>
>>
>> He wrote modern classical before he joined the Dead - you have to have
>>
>> some serious ability to be invited by Luciano Berio to take a class.
>
>Where's the music? And one or two pieces ain't gonna' cut it for a composer.
>As to Berio, he was probably amazed that a young American or two even knew who he was. I doubt the class had hundreds of applicants. Likely ten.
>Lesh sucking up wouldn't hurt.

Your knowledge of Lesh and his relationship with Berio is seriously
lacking. He was in a graduate-level class with (among others) Steve
Reich and John Chowning. That's not a class that just anybody sign up
for an take, that Lesh was asked by Berio to take it despite not
having an undergraduate degree speaks to what Berio thought of his
talent.

>Seriously, I expected, post Garcia, that Lesh would have composed and released a bunch of avant-garde/classical type music. Or even spacey ambient. Instead we got FM radio classic rock covers and the Garcia Hunter songbook.

So what? Lesh isn't the same guy he was in 1963. His tastes and
aptitudes changed, being part of the Grateful Dead for 30 years
probably had a huge impact on that.

>Weir who wrote some Dead classic also dried up basically when it came to new material

Garcia's output had slowed considerably by the end as well.

>Perhaps just as well. It's doubtful newer or even most heads would attend shows that didn't have recognizable tunes.

Absolutely true.

[James Pablos]

On Mar 30, 4:47 pm, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Your knowledge of Lesh and his relationship with Berio is seriously
> lacking.  He was in a graduate-level class with (among others) Steve
> Reich and John Chowning.  That's not a class that just anybody sign up
> for an take, that Lesh was asked by Berio to take it despite not
> having an undergraduate degree speaks to what Berio thought of his
> talent.

You're blowing it up just a bit, though. It really isn't that unusual
or mind-blowing to have a undergrad audit a graduate course.

[Brad Greer]

Considering Lesh maintained a friendship with Berio up until his death
I'd say that Berio had respect for Phil's musical abilities. And
Lesh had essentially dropped out of school at that point, Berio asked
him to take the class.

[Olompali4]

On Saturday, March 30, 2013 2:47:06 PM UTC-6, Brad Greer wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 04:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Olompali4
>

\

Again. where is this modern classical music? Please, no Seastones...ok maybe Seastones.

If Lesh is truly a different person than when he was a student of modern classical and has since more likely to be enthralled of Roger Waters, who gives a hoot about his so called pedigree?
And Berio? At that point blowing smoke up his ass probably would have got many an invite It would have been more impressive if Phil had jammed with Dolphy.
Tom Constanten seems more "modern classical" throughout his life than pal Phil.

I will give you Steve Reich. That cat's got credentials. Lesh should have started something, say, around the time of Bobby's Midnights and just kick started a sublimely strange solo act.

The major weakness of the second half in the GD's 30 year run is the steep drop off of new material.

[James Pablos]

On Mar 31, 7:10 am, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Considering Lesh maintained a friendship with Berio up until his death
> I'd say that Berio had respect for Phil's musical abilities.

Phil and Berio maintained a friendship

THEREFORE

Berio had respect for Phil's musical abilities

Your logic is unimpeachable, Brad.

[3jane.]

I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Brad Greer]

Lesh's interest in modern classical influenced his approach to music -
he wouldn't have been the bass player he became without that
influence. So he didn't meet your expectations and continue to create
modern classical music after he started taking acid and playing in a
rock band - how does that invalidate anything he did before? He was
young when he studied with Berio - why should we expect that he had
some vast output of music that we can listen to today?

Lesh being an accomplished musician in his own right does nothing to
detract from Jerry's legacy.

>I will give you Steve Reich. That cat's got credentials. Lesh should have started something, say, around the time of Bobby's Midnights and just kick started a sublimely strange solo act.

John Chowning has serious credentials as well, he's just more obscure
to the general public than Reich or even Berio. And Phil wasn't
interested in doing something on his own during the time the Dead were
together - I'm not sure why that matters to you or how that means Phil
wasn't a serious student of modern classical.

>The major weakness of the second half in the GD's 30 year run is the steep drop off of new material.

That's certainly one thing, Jerry's descent into heroin is another.

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 4:29:11 AM UTC-6, Brad Greer wrote:

>
> Lesh's interest in modern classical influenced his approach to music -
>
> he wouldn't have been the bass player he became without that
>
> influence. So he didn't meet your expectations and continue to create
>
> modern classical music after he started taking acid and playing in a
>
> rock band - how does that invalidate anything he did before? He was
>
> young when he studied with Berio - why should we expect that he had
>
> some vast output of music that we can listen to today?
>
>
>
> Lesh being an accomplished musician in his own right does nothing to
>
> detract from Jerry's legacy.
>
>
>
> >I will give you Steve Reich. That cat's got credentials. Lesh should have started something, say, around the time of Bobby's Midnights and just kick started a sublimely strange solo act.
>
>
>
> John Chowning has serious credentials as well, he's just more obscure
>
> to the general public than Reich or even Berio. And Phil wasn't
>
> interested in doing something on his own during the time the Dead were
>
> together - I'm not sure why that matters to you or how that means Phil
>
> wasn't a serious student of modern classical.
>

It doesn't matter to me. It matters to you and those who are quick to cite this "modern classical" influence as some serious accreditation and thus validation. At this point it comes off as silly as Paul McCartney rush to be hip by talking of Penderecki. I think proof is in the pudding. I'm hearing more of a FM 70's radio as a huge influence of what Phil Lesh plays.

Jack Casady had as much of an influence on Lesh and The Grateful Dead.
Mickey Hart's studies with Ali Akbar Khan had as much if not more of an influence on Lesh. Lesh freaks aren't too quick to cite Mickey Hart.
The discussion was about the latter day Lesh compositions. They sucked. His one solo album was filled with bad music and even those were written with help from others.
He is the most over rated member of the GD. I will give him and his management credit for keeping the Deadhead vibe alive with his myriad of Jamband collaborations and restaurant. Enjoy!

[Olompali4]

On Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:21:20 PM UTC-6, 3jane. wrote:

>
> > Perhaps just as well. It's doubtful newer or even most heads would attend shows that didn't have recognizable tunes.
>
>
>
> I sure as hell wouldn't.

A big batch of fresh, original songs is the only think aside from free tix and a short drive to get me back to a show.
Thanks Hart! Thanks 7 Walkers. Thanks Hunter.
Sure as hell wouldn't be Warren Haynes or some Phish guys playing Sugaree or, God forbid, Dark Side of the Moon.

[Ed Chapin]

On 4/1/2013 7:52 AM, Olompali4 wrote:

> Jack Casady had as much of an influence on Lesh and The Grateful Dead.
> Mickey Hart's studies with Ali Akbar Khan had as much if not more of an influence on Lesh. Lesh freaks aren't too quick to cite Mickey Hart.
> The discussion was about the latter day Lesh compositions. They sucked. His one solo album was filled with bad music and even those were written with help from others.
> He is the most over rated member of the GD. I will give him and his management credit for keeping the Deadhead vibe alive with his myriad of Jamband collaborations and restaurant. Enjoy!
>

I don't know about the overrated part, as I don't have the technical
knowledge to make such an evaluation. My attraction to the Grateful
Dead was always a bit more intangible; it made me feel good :-)

I don't really know or care who influenced who. I do know, that for
whatever reason, I haven't attended a GD-oriented show since 2002--not
that I ever attended many back in the day.

A lot of that has to do with my own psychological constitution, as my
aversion to babbling crowds has only increased in recent years. A
couple hours alone with a classic GD AUD recording is, in my book,
preferable to my last few outings. INFP Hell, and all that.

With no intended backhanded slight of anybody else, I will say that I
think Mickey Hart is the most underrated member of the GD.

Ed

[sparksfly]

A shriveled up lemon.

[Walter Karmazyn]

Speaking of Warren, I just this morning noticed this. Think I'm busy both
nights....

https://www.sfsymphony.org/Buy-Tickets/2012-13/Jerry-Garcia-Symphonic-Celebration.aspx

W

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 4:52:47 AM UTC-7, Olompali4 wrote:

> He is the most over rated member of the GD.

Yikes. Of all the dumb things I've read on RMGD, this is another.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

That was pretty much my reaction as well. I think he's perhaps the most important member in terms of giving the band the sound they developed. It's interesting to note how the side projects of all the
members tend not to have the GD flavor that makes them sound unlike other rock bands, while his bands do. I have grave doubts as to whether they would have created the exploratory body of work they
did with any other bass player.

As far as his modern classical influence, I think it's one of those things that is subtle in terms of audible licks and stylistic quotes, but profound in terms of approach. From interviews I've read
in the early 70s, it sounded like he had reached the end of that road as far as his personal creativity went before he even hooked up with Garcia, et al. While there are lots of things I'd like to
hear him do (including some modern classical explorations, playing Scofield's music in Scofield's band, etc.), I'm not holding my breath. I think he's earned the right to put his energy where he
wants. Expecting him to go back and pick up the trains of thought he was exploring 50 years ago is not the most reasonable expectation, but to write him off as a complete dilettante who merely name
drops exotic and obscure composers is a little much.

I do agree that TC went into it far more deeply. It's definitely time well spent to hang out and talk with him about those experiences and his perspectives on that world of music. The fact that his
output is even more meagre than Lesh's in no way condemns his musical stature.

At the end of the day, we can only ask what we've done lately. I've got to get to work....

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article <kjc1u2$hov$1...@dont-email.me>, Ed Chapin <edcha...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> With no intended backhanded slight of anybody else, I will say that I
> think Mickey Hart is the most underrated member of the GD.
>
> Ed

I'd argue that one! :-)

Edwin

[Olompali4]

Sheesh.. who's his competition for being most over rated? Weir is blown off as a rock star show biz wannabe so it can't be him. Hart is pretty much detested by so many primarily because he's an opinionated mouthy man and Billy? He's the rock solid drummer. Jerry is impossible to overrate. It's pretty much his world. No Garcia, no anybody.
Lesh receives genuflection and I don't hear why outside of the jams and most of those are in the 68-74 years. He pretty much drops out late 70's and through the 80's by comparison. We hit the 90's and he waves to the wind? Get off your knees.
You dig the Relix All Stars he assembled since '99? Cool. Pretty much wanking off over the Garcia Hunter songbook, imo. A few nods of 70's Classic Rock for those who miss the good times I guess. I will give that Lesh is the only truly interesting thing happening in his solo career. Phish? Little Feat? Jorma? Allmans? Crowes? Jackie Greene and Ryan Adams? Talk about Yikes!
Oh Scofield....yeah that went real deep didn't it?
Garcia said when Lesh is on, the band is on..he was wrong because he was humble. When Garcia's on the band is on. Proof is the final years.
Wait a minute I forgot! He took a class by Luciano Berio!!!! He writes Musique Concrete!!!! He plays trumpet!!!
Looking back now 18 years, nearly 2 decades, the only really new stuff from the GD outfit has been from Robert Hunter and Mickey Hart. Lesh and Weir have been extraordinarily disappointing. Unless all you want is a good night out with friends. That they can provide. Furthur baby, furthur

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:26:01 PM UTC-6, edwin wrote:
>
> That was pretty much my reaction as well. I think he's perhaps the most important member in terms of giving the band the sound they developed. It's interesting to note how the side projects of all the
>members tend not to have the GD flavor that makes them sound unlike other rock bands, while his bands do. <<

If by "GD flavor" you mean guitars jamming, yeah you're right. That's not the be all end all for "GD flavor", imo. Look at the first half of the 70's monster setlists...I'd say Robert Hunter could qualify as the "most important member" for sound developed.
Too many people think the GD are just jams. Big and short sighted mistake.
It's a reason why Phish, et.al is no comparison. They can jam and play but they can't really write memorable lasting songs. A key defining aspect. The songwriting may have the final lasting impact.

>I have grave doubts as to whether they would have created the exploratory body of work they did with any other bass player.
>

I'd be willing to bet someone like Jack Bruce may have. And, again, it seems that it was when Hart hooked up with Garcia and Lesh that the explorations kicked into high gear but I never really hear that slant that from heads. In fact, Mickey Hart has been grossly marginalized.

> As far as his modern classical influence, I think it's one of those things that is subtle in terms of audible licks and stylistic quotes, but profound in terms of approach. From interviews I've read in the early 70s, it sounded like he had reached the end of that road as far as his personal creativity went before he even hooked up with Garcia, et al. While there are lots of things I'd like to
>

Fine. That's why I can't get the point in even bringing it up.

>>Expecting him to go back and pick up the trains of thought he was exploring 50 years ago is not the most reasonable expectation, but to write him off as a complete dilettante who merely name drops exotic and obscure composers is a little much.

50?...he could have done it in 1980. I lost my expectation for anything exotic, esoteric or obscure from Phil around the time of well....Wave to the Wind..LOL!
And you don't think Phil has a bit of dilettante in him? Really?

> I do agree that TC went into it far more deeply. It's definitely time well spent to hang out and talk with him about those experiences and his perspectives on that world of music. The fact that his output is even more meagre than Lesh's in no way condemns his musical stature.
>

Who was gonna' sign TC?..his output is meager because that's who he is...

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article <b9cfc57f-b47e-4ce0...@googlegroups.com>, Olompali4 <olom...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Wait a minute I forgot! He took a class by Luciano Berio!!!! He writes
> Musique Concrete!!!! He plays trumpet!!!

I do not think that phrase means what you think it means. As far as I know, Lesh never composed any musique concr�te. If anyone did in the band, it would have been TC with his prepared piano escapade,
but I don't really think that qualifies either.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article <ec4e2a55-8cd4-4c11...@googlegroups.com>, Olompali4 <olom...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:26:01 PM UTC-6, edwin wrote:
> >
> > That was pretty much my reaction as well. I think he's perhaps the most
> > important member in terms of giving the band the sound they developed. It's
> > interesting to note how the side projects of all the
> >members tend not to have the GD flavor that makes them sound unlike other
> >rock bands, while his bands do. <<
>
> If by "GD flavor" you mean guitars jamming, yeah you're right. That's not the
> be all end all for "GD flavor", imo. Look at the first half of the 70's
> monster setlists...I'd say Robert Hunter could qualify as the "most important
> member" for sound developed.
> Too many people think the GD are just jams. Big and short sighted mistake.
> It's a reason why Phish, et.al is no comparison. They can jam and play but
> they can't really write memorable lasting songs. A key defining aspect. The
> songwriting may have the final lasting impact.

I'm not saying the jam is be all and end all. That's like assuming that because I hated Romney I loved Obama.

However, you are right that Hunter definitely gets an MVP multiple times (including toward the end. I don't think his craft diminished much over the years).

But, I would argue that Phish's jamming isn't really jamming at all in the same sense that the Dead did. A lot of that is due to Phil's influence in how the music was structured, especially during the
jams. I love Mike's playing, but he's a far more conventional player than Phil and his bandmates don't respond to his playing in the same way. Pretty much all the other bands that "jam", with the
possible exception of early Pink Floyd, really use the word to mean that the guitarists get to play extended solos while the rest of the band plays some variations below them. The Grateful Dead style
of jamming, which was more like spontaneous group composition when it was functioning and not hampered by boredom, opiates, etc., was guided by Phil in a way that no other bassists really did. I think
a lot of that came from the fact that his early integration of the role of the bass was far more influenced by classical music, from Bach to Wagner, than Motown or rock and roll. In a lot of ways,
he's more like the cello player in a string quartet than the bass player in a rock or even jazz band.

>
>
> >I have grave doubts as to whether they would have created the exploratory
> >body of work they did with any other bass player.
> >
>
> I'd be willing to bet someone like Jack Bruce may have. And, again, it seems
> that it was when Hart hooked up with Garcia and Lesh that the explorations
> kicked into high gear but I never really hear that slant that from heads. In
> fact, Mickey Hart has been grossly marginalized.

Maybe. I haven't heard much from Bruce that was more than extrapolation from blues and other pop forms. He can be as unedited as the best of them, but I don't think he has the emotional range of what
Phil brought to the table over the years. I think perhaps he might be a technically better bass player, although both are idiosyncratic as hell, as Phil didn't really rage out the way Bruce did with
Cream, etc., but Phil also was able to play the really delicate, quiet and dynamic stuff. While Cream was just blasting blues forms over and over, the GD were going from a whisper to a scream and back
again, completely by reacting to each other in the moment, within the space of 16 bars. Bruce can play, but Phil can listen.

Mickey? Well, sure, he brought a lot to the table, and I think his influence on Billy was great. Apparently he inspired him to practice a lot more when he showed on the scene, and get his rudiments
together, and certainly gets tons of credit for bringing the odd meter stuff to the table in a way that changed them forever. But the truth is that when it came down to it, when he left, the essence
of the band didn't leave and many would argue that they played their best material ever. When he came back, they lost a subtlety and agility that they never regained. You could argue that it's not
entirely his fault and I wouldn't disagree, but yet, it's there. It's interesting to look at the scene in the GD movie at the end of the movie and they're in the dressing room grabbing something to
eat before the encore and someone says, "Guess who showed up?" and no one is rejoicing. Kind of telling that Jerry edited that into the movie.

>
>
>
>
> > As far as his modern classical influence, I think it's one of those things
> > that is subtle in terms of audible licks and stylistic quotes, but profound
> > in terms of approach. From interviews I've read in the early 70s, it
> > sounded like he had reached the end of that road as far as his personal
> > creativity went before he even hooked up with Garcia, et al. While there
> > are lots of things I'd like to
> >
>
> Fine. That's why I can't get the point in even bringing it up.

Because it's still part of his musical thought organization. When you go through stuff like that at a time of your life when you are cementing your personality, it leaves an indelible mark. I know
that when I play electric bass in a rock band, part of what's racketing around in my head is stuff from my oboe playing days as a teenager in the 70s, whether it was Bach or Irving Fine. It's part of
how I organize my playing and also interpret what everyone else is doing. I haven't picked up an oboe since 1982. It's still part of my life.

>
> >>Expecting him to go back and pick up the trains of thought he was exploring
> >>50 years ago is not the most reasonable expectation, but to write him off
> >>as a complete dilettante who merely name drops exotic and obscure composers
> >>is a little much.
>
> 50?...he could have done it in 1980. I lost my expectation for anything
> exotic, esoteric or obscure from Phil around the time of well....Wave to the
> Wind..LOL!
> And you don't think Phil has a bit of dilettante in him? Really?

Well, I guess that's a matter of opinion and degree, so we just have a different view there. I don't think he's a dilettante because at one time, it really was his thing. It's not like he picked it up
for a week or two, listened to some records and declared himself an expert before moving on. I suggest talking to him personally before you make a final judgment. I have some background in that part
of the music world, as my grandfather was 20th century classical composer who knew a lot of the people who influenced Phil and when I discussed the 20th century classical scene with Phil, it sure
seemed like not only did he know what was going on, but it was relevant to him in a pretty deep way. His interest is not casual or amateur.

>
> > I do agree that TC went into it far more deeply. It's definitely time well
> > spent to hang out and talk with him about those experiences and his
> > perspectives on that world of music. The fact that his output is even more
> > meagre than Lesh's in no way condemns his musical stature.
> >
>
> Who was gonna' sign TC?..his output is meager because that's who he is...

:-)

[3jane.]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 8:08:49 AM UTC-4, Olompali4 wrote:

So you would go to a Further show where they played a bunch of new songs you never heard before as opposed to one with mostly (virtually all tbh) songs from the repetoire? If the answer is aye, we'll have to agree to disagree. The main reason I go see Dead related stuff these days is the songs.

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:24:53 PM UTC-7, Olompali4 wrote:
> On Monday, April 1, 2013 12:12:50 PM UTC-6, amur...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 1, 2013 4:52:47 AM UTC-7, Olompali4 wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > He is the most over rated member of the GD.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Yikes. Of all the dumb things I've read on RMGD, this is another.
>
>
>
> Sheesh.. who's his competition for being most over rated? Weir is blown off as a rock star show biz wannabe so it can't be him. Hart is pretty much detested by so many primarily because he's an opinionated mouthy man and Billy? He's the rock solid drummer. Jerry is impossible to overrate. It's pretty much his world. No Garcia, no anybody.

Yeah. Those last four words? There's your answer.

[amur...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:53:12 PM UTC-7, Olompali4 wrote:
> On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:26:01 PM UTC-6, edwin wrote:

> >I have grave doubts as to whether they would have created the exploratory body of work they did with any other bass player.
>
> I'd be willing to bet someone like Jack Bruce may have. And, again, it seems that it was when Hart hooked up with Garcia and Lesh that the explorations kicked into high gear but I never really hear that slant that from heads. In fact, Mickey Hart has been grossly marginalized.

Well, in part because the greatest explorations in the band's history coincided with Hart leaving the band. Sorta just the opposite of what you're claiming.

[3jane.]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 7:54:27 PM UTC-4, amur...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> >
>
> > I'd be willing to bet someone like Jack Bruce may have. And, again, it seems that it was when Hart hooked up with Garcia and Lesh that the explorations kicked into high gear but I never really hear that slant that from heads. In fact, Mickey Hart has been grossly marginalized.
>
>
>
> Well, in part because the greatest explorations in the band's history coincided with Hart leaving the band. Sorta just the opposite of what you're claiming.

Loved 1971-74 for that reason, straight Bill K. As Paumagartner said in the NYer article a few months ago, there were times in the 80s when they sounded like sneakers in a dryer.

[Ed Chapin]

As much as I hate to admit it, you are probably right here. It would
probably be ridiculous to argue that somebody recognized by both the
Smithsonian and the Library of Congress is underrated :-)

http://www.folkways.si.edu/find_recordings/mickey-hart-collection.aspx

I do not possess but a sliver of the musical knowledge that you do, and
even I can see that "Supralingua" outshines any recording by Ratdog,
Phil & Friends, The Other Ones, The Dead, or Furthur. In fact, not only
can I listen to "Supralingua" without cringing, but it has actually
spent weeks in my car player--something that cannot be said of any other
post-Jerry recording.

While I am not quite so enamoured of his latest release, "Mysterium
Tremendum," the tracks that are right are really right. This one, for
example, can be an absolute emotional rollercoaster. Of course, the
lyrics did come Robert Hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMcDIefcuBo

Ed

[Brad Greer]

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 13:26:01 -0600, Edwin Hurwitz <ed...@indra.com>
wrote:

>In article <25b3bbc8-1389-4396...@googlegroups.com>, amur...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 1, 2013 4:52:47 AM UTC-7, Olompali4 wrote:
>>
>> > He is the most over rated member of the GD.
>>
>> Yikes. Of all the dumb things I've read on RMGD, this is another.
>
>That was pretty much my reaction as well. I think he's perhaps the most important member in terms of giving the band the sound they developed. It's interesting to note how the side projects of all the
>members tend not to have the GD flavor that makes them sound unlike other rock bands, while his bands do. I have grave doubts as to whether they would have created the exploratory body of work they
>did with any other bass player.

I'd hate to rate the contributions of each member - yeah, Phil's
approach to bass playing was important, but Bobby's emergence as a
rhythm guitarist was vitally important as well. Mickey's interests in
world music were huge, Billy's ability to keep everything together
were important. And none of it would have worked without Garcia.

The Grateful Dead were truly much more than the sum of their parts.

>As far as his modern classical influence, I think it's one of those things that is subtle in terms of audible licks and stylistic quotes, but profound in terms of approach. From interviews I've read
>in the early 70s, it sounded like he had reached the end of that road as far as his personal creativity went before he even hooked up with Garcia, et al. While there are lots of things I'd like to
>hear him do (including some modern classical explorations, playing Scofield's music in Scofield's band, etc.), I'm not holding my breath. I think he's earned the right to put his energy where he
>wants. Expecting him to go back and pick up the trains of thought he was exploring 50 years ago is not the most reasonable expectation, but to write him off as a complete dilettante who merely name
>drops exotic and obscure composers is a little much.

I'm with you on this - Phil has said that hearing Like a Rolling Stone
on the radio while driving a mail truck was a profound moment in his
life. Saying that Phil was just name dropping is like saying Jerry
wasn't really into bluegrass because he stopped playing it for 10
years or so.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

In article <1844002533386556540...@News.Individual.NET>, Band Beyond Desu <t...@aiko.com> wrote:

> You analyzed deeply and well, grasshoppah, but in spite of all that I'm not
> sure you were able to "justify" WTTW from Olo's point of view (which
> ultimately I can't speak for or to)...

I've got no skin in the game about WTTW. I don't think I've ever even heard it. I don't doubt it's wretched, though.

[James Pablos]

On Apr 2, 12:09 am, Edwin Hurwitz <ed...@indra.com> wrote:

> I've got no skin in the game about WTTW. I don't think I've ever even heard it. I don't doubt it's wretched, though.

It's worth 7 minutes of your time. I've never been able to decide if I
like it or not. The composition itself strikes me as boring, but Phil
was nothing if not earnest in his delivery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z88CXzxOib0

Garcia was "on" during this show, but that's not really manifest here,
and I don't think the song allowed for it regardless. His first break
is pretty tight, though. And snappy.

Vinny does his level best to ruin the whole thing with his background
vocals.

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 6:00:49 PM UTC-6, 3jane. wrote:

> Loved 1971-74 for that reason, straight Bill K. As Paumagartner said in the NYer article a few months ago, there were times in the 80s when they sounded like sneakers in a dryer.

Here we have yet another easy trope in GD lore. In fact, it is really not a one drummer situation when considering Keith Godchaux and The Grateful Dead are basically utilizing his Grand Piano as an eight octave percussion instrument.
Another aspect of the GD that is overlooked for the easy analysis.

Please don't let the New Yorker article become a set in stone critical citation to be repeated and referred for the next decades ad nauseum. It's one cat's opinion, nothing more.

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 5:54:27 PM UTC-6, amur...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Well, in part because the greatest explorations in the band's history coincided with Hart leaving the band. Sorta just the opposite of what you're claiming.

72-74 can't compare to 68-72 which was a raging psychedelic tornado, a Hydra headed storm of pure mind drench. Plus in the end you get the brilliant start of the sublime Garcia Hunter songbook
And no Pig? Whatever...
72-74 sounds a bit like a stroll through the links on a sunny day by comparison.
Your mileage does vary.

[Olompali4]

Well I have over four decades with those songs so yeah, if Furthur were to take the Four lps (count 'em FOUR albums plus some loose change) that Hunter wrote with Jim Lauderdale and try for new heights. I am so there and would probably tour far and wide.

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 7:24:28 PM UTC-6, Brad Greer wrote:
Saying that Phil was just name dropping is like saying Jerry
>
> wasn't really into bluegrass because he stopped playing it for 10
>
> years or so.

Let's clear the air here. I was referring to Phil's advocacy acolytes regarding the Berio classico dealio, not Lesh.

[Olompali4]

Hart's new one is easily one of the trippiest discs to come out of Deadville in decades.

[Olompali4]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 4:07:49 PM UTC-6, edwin wrote:
> In article <b9cfc57f-b47e-4ce0...@googlegroups.com>, Olompali4 <olom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Wait a minute I forgot! He took a class by Luciano Berio!!!! He writes
>
> > Musique Concrete!!!! He plays trumpet!!!
>
>
>

> I do not think that phrase means what you think it means. As far as I know, Lesh never composed any musique concrčte. If anyone did in the band, it would have been TC with his prepared piano escapade,

>
> but I don't really think that qualifies either.

I still need someone to define Grunge...but I sure did read and hear (see TC in the dvd, Anthem to Beauty) the term musique concrete when analysis of AotS is applied. It's just another easy, knee jerk trope to overamp esteem.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

Just because he said it doesn't mean that you have to take his word for it, but I guess it's neither here nor there. Despite the fact that probably neither of the Pierres would hear AoS as musique
concrete, I'm sure they would find it enjoyable.

[B]

You make that sound so hollow and disappointing. Further serves the purpose
of hearing great music performed reasonably well after a nice dinner and
well spent with my wife and friends. That's a wonderful thing. I go hear
plenty of new alt, jazz, bluegrass etc anyway, I don't look to Further for
that.

[B]

[bzl...@aaool.com]

That would be great to see/hear. In a similar vein, I totally loved
it when P&F were crankin' out the Ryan Adams covers in '05-06. Great
songs, great jams...

[bzl...@aaool.com]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:47:00 -0400, Just Kidding
<JustK...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:01:48 -0700 (PDT), David Cohen
><dcohe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 29, 8:26�am, bzl...@aaool.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 06:38:59 -0400, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:55:17 -0700 (PDT), amuraw...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> >>On Thursday, March 28, 2013 9:22:43 PM UTC-7, Just Kidding wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> With all due respect to Phil, "If the Shoe Fits" is probably as bad if
>>> >>> not worse than "Wave to the Wind".
>>>
>>> >>And Childhood's End is right up there.
>>>
>>> >I generally agree on Childhood's End, but the acoustic version they
>>> >did in '94 (at the first "Phil and Friends" show) was actually pretty
>>> >good.
>>>
>>> I'm obviously in the minority, because I'd rank all of the Lesh songs
>>> higher than Eternity, Velveeta, Lazy Liver Load, Long Long Long Long
>>> 3-minute Second Set Song, and Samba.
>>>
>>> Wave had some good jams, imo. �It always reminded me of George
>>> Harrison's "It's All Too Much" (which they eventually started doing).
>>>
>>> But, overall there was certainly a whole lot of bad songs to get
>>> through after 1991.
>>
>>I don't know how you can rate Wave to the Wind higher than Lazy River
>>Road, which I think one of the better late-Garcia/Hunter songs. I
>>first heard it around the time that I first rode a "Lazy River" at one
>>of the Florida water parks, and I've always associated the two. Not
>>the most exciting song/ride, but very pleasant and relaxing.
>
>Yeah. LRR was a solid first setter, although without the emotional
>impact of So Many Roads. Like Corinna, the instrumental part of
>Eternity was fine, it's just that the vocals were very so-so. Hard to
>believe Willie Dixon co-wrote it.

SnoozaRooza. Muzak, by Hunter/Garcia.

[Brad Greer]

'68 is one of my favorite years in the Dead's history - raging
psychedelic tornado only hints at the raw lysergic-fueled energy that
they put out that year. By '71 they were a completely different band
but still brilliant, they really peaked in that format in '73. Both
eras have some incredible music.

[bzl...@aaool.com]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 16:10:34 -0700 (PDT), highgreenchilly
<ddim...@me.com> wrote:

>Victim was kind of interesting actually. Cool chord progression.

I can top this. I like Easy Answers. And Picasso Moon.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

I have to say that I was not a Picasso Moon fan until I played it. It's a cool song. Kinda dumb lyrics, but it's still a cool song.

[3jane.]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:14:51 PM UTC-4, edwin wrote:

> > I can top this. I like Easy Answers. And Picasso Moon.
>
>
>
> I have to say that I was not a Picasso Moon fan until I played it. It's a cool song. Kinda dumb lyrics, but it's still a cool song.

From an email from a friend of mine today, for the other fans of the Hartless years.

Friends;
I try to rein in my hyperbole, to keep it on a leash.
I really do.
And some of you may have grown out of the annoying "music"
of the Grateful Dead.
Nonetheless, go to this link and listen to this playlist,
assembled by some feller in Chicago from the choicest jazzy instrumental moments
in GD history, between 1971 and 1974.
Footnote; the first 2.18.71 is the only track with Mickey,
it was Mickey's last show until 10-20-74,
so all the rest of the cuts after the first one are one drummer swing.

http://archive.org/details/DeadicatedToSpaceMix

No blues, no voices, all instrumental, premium selections.
Pure GD inventions.
hope you like

[dr.narcolepsy]

On Thursday, April 4, 2013 8:43:16 PM UTC-4, 3jane. wrote:
> http://archive.org/details/DeadicatedToSpaceMix

Well, isn't that the coolest thing for me to download and fire up while I walk to the fridge for a Caldera IPA? Thanks! And they say that rmgd classic is dead.

[marcman]

Wow! Just looked at the song list! This is a sweet recommendation, I
think I'll walk to this the next two days . . .

[3jane.]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:24:33 AM UTC-4, Olompali4 wrote:

> Please don't let the New Yorker article become a set in stone critical citation to be repeated and referred for the next decades ad nauseum. It's one cat's opinion, nothing more.

Ad nauseum? Next decades? WTF? I mentioned it once because I agree with most of what he said, Hart made the band sound like shit many times. The one cat's opinion I see here is yours, posted about 5 times in a row. I happen to think Hart was overrated, they sounded better without him and his new music sucks, as did most of his old music. So it's two cats opinions, and you have yours, which makes 3.

[Just Kidding]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:28:17 -0700 (PDT), "3jane." <q3j...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:24:33 AM UTC-4, Olompali4 wrote:
>
>> Please don't let the New Yorker article become a set in stone critical citation to be repeated and referred for the next decades ad nauseum. It's one cat's opinion, nothing more.
>
>Ad nauseum? Next decades? WTF? I mentioned it once because I agree with most of what he said, Hart made the band sound like shit many times. The one cat's opinion I see here is yours, posted about 5 times in a row. I happen to think Hart was overrated, they sounded better without him and his new music sucks, as did most of his old music. So it's two cats opinions, and you have yours, which makes 3.

We'll never know whether the band would have been better, worse, or
the same if Mickey was still with them from '72-'74. I don't think
he's overrated and I like what he's doing with his current band. That
makes 4.

[Olompali4]

On Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:28:17 PM UTC-6, 3jane. wrote:

>
> Ad nauseum? Next decades? WTF? I mentioned it once because I agree with most of what he said, Hart made the band sound like shit many times. The one cat's opinion I see here is yours, posted about 5 times in a row. I happen to think Hart was overrated, they sounded better without him and his new music sucks, as did most of his old music. So it's two cats opinions, and you have yours, which makes 3.

Too many times when someone sees an opinion in print by a well paid pro they take that opinion as to be set in stone. Then we find that one man's printed opinion repeated over and over as an Authoritative Voice I stopped buying into that decades ago and just went with my own ideas and ears. I don't need validation.
Hart made the band sound like shit many times??? So did Jerry, So did Weir, so did K&D.. etc Ever check Lesh on harmony vox? Ever wonder why he exclisively vetoed many a Dick's Pick? He could really hit a flat grating pitch.
Why single out Hart for the shit? Great thing about the GD is that no one fully deserve the credit or the blame. Diga Rhythm, Mystery Box, Planet Drum Apocalypse Now...Suck? One man gathers...

Oh no! Not the "Swing" thing again. There's many a time when what was needed was Rock. Full on thunder.

You stick to your highlight reel of a 2 & 1/2 year span of GD...I'll take the full 30.

And don't take this stuff so personal.

[marcman]

I agree with JK. That makes 5.

I may need some help with the math if we get into double digits . . .

[James Pablos]

On Apr 4, 8:48 pm, "dr.narcolepsy" <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  And they say that rmgd classic is dead.

Who said that? WHO said that?

Whoever it was, tell that bitch to be cool. Say "Bitch! Be cool!"

[DanPopp]

Thank you for the link.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

Regardless of the merits of the rest of your argument, it's hard to say with a straight face that Mickey is a slammin' rock drummer. He's a man of many talents, but playing a straight rock groove is
not one of them.

[Brad Greer]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:19:42 -0600, Edwin Hurwitz <ed...@indra.com>
wrote:

Agreed.

[Olompali4]

Thia has more to do with "This Rock Group's Drummer Can SWING!" praise that has been floating around since Rolling Stone or Creem or Hit Parader quoted Keith Richards on Charlie Watts. It's morphed into an oft repeated and reflexive cliche. This "praise" has more to do with old school professional writers' wishing to praise and push classic rhythm and blues at a time when heavy rock was all too popular and common.
I've read drummers from John Bonham to Bill Ward as "swingin'" It's ridiculous.
Folks need to put away their old music mags away once and for all. Try being creative in your analysis. Ya' know, new descriptors and concepts?

As to Hart and Kreutzman..they couldn't rock? A 60's Lovelight just pounds.

[Edwin Hurwitz]

OK, I think this argument falls apart purely on definitional terms. It's been posited that someone who is pounding or creating thunder is rockin'. I say not necessarily so. Making a whole mess of
noise, no matter how dramatic, is not rocking. It's a little like pornography, in that we know it when we see it and it's true that a pounding or thundering drummer might be rocking, but it ain't
necessarily so. I'd also point out that your example includes Kreutzmann who could both swing and rock, so Mickey might be riding his coattails into the rocking world.

[Brad Greer]

Neither Edwin nor I was addressing whether Mickey can swing. The
question was about Mickey as a straight-ahead rock and roll drummer.
That's not his strength.

>As to Hart and Kreutzman..they couldn't rock? A 60's Lovelight just pounds.

Yes, but is that straight-ahead rock and roll?

[Ed Chapin]

On 4/1/2013 8:08 AM, Olompali4 wrote:

>
> A big batch of fresh, original songs is the only think aside from
> free tix and a short drive to get me back to a show. Thanks Hart!
> Thanks 7 Walkers. Thanks Hunter.

Thank you!

Your enthusiasm led me to finally explore some of the new flavors (7
Walkers, Jim Lauderdale). Tasty!

I think it was Mr. Hurwitz who recently opined that Hunter's songwriting
abilities have not diminished with time. He was wrong; Hunter's
songwriting talents have ripened to perfection.

This is my new favorite song for the day :-)

Ed

Iodine, Iodine
Assorted cuts and bruises ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfu_906M4EM