Billy Edd Wheeler-What Happened to Him?
LanceU1943
Edd Wheeler. He wrote among other songs, 'HIGH FLYIN' BIRD, COMING OF THE
ROADS, AND REASON TO BELIEVE." He was a modest singer, but he could write great
songs. What happened to him?
Ton Maas
lance...@aol.com (LanceU1943) wrote:
Dunno what happened to him, but he certainly wasn't the composer of Reason
to Believe. That one was by Tim Hardin!
Ton
LanceU1943
A reasonable men would be in bed getting his rest. I stand corrected.
Maestro
N. C. area. Jim Croce did a great rendition of Wheeler's "Coal Tatoo" in
1965
on the soundtrack of a television documentary called "The Miners' Story,"
for WCAU-TV in Philadelphia. Jack Palance was the narrator. Croce
re-recorded it for a little-known 1966 album called "Facets."
Steve Angelucci
"LanceU1943" <lance...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010318232304...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
Maestro
jcdevildog
country", but I know he's on the board of Warren Wilson College in
Swannanoa,
NC, just outside Asheville, as well as the advisory board of the Swannanoa
Gathering folk school. He also--in collaboration with Loyal Jones--has put
out several books (at least four) of Southern/rural humor, which are really
enjoyable.
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G. M. Watson
is the most important thing that's happened to Billy Edd Wheeler in the past
40 years?!? The poor sod.
----------
In article <9a5nid$gqo$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>, "Maestro"
Maestro
real fan of Wheeler--to the extent that he chose to record one of his
favorite Wheeler songs for an important documentary and a debut album. I
think that tribute is an interesting sidebar to the main question "What
happened to him?" which I attempted to answer initally.
"G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote in message
news:3ac6...@newsserver1.intergate.ca...
G. M. Watson
somehow more important than the others who have, presumably, recorded B.E.W.
songs. I'm assuming there must be others who did (I'm not really familiar
with the Wheeler oeuvre), or was Croce the only one, and that's why you've
chosen to focus on his recording(s)? And why should we care that a pop-folk
singer who's been dead for nearly 30 years was a fan of a songwriter who's
(apparently) still alive?
----------
In article <9a6l6j$d4b$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, "Maestro"
Rich McCarthy
"You" don't have to care. It's one person's opinion.
You have another opinion.
Let's drop it and call it a draw.
Rich McCarthy
Steven Rowe
<gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> writes:
>a fan of a songwriter who's
>(apparently) still alive?
and as mentioned, writing books on humor....
Steven Rowe
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David Rintoul
...why should we care that a pop-folk singer who's been dead for nearly 30 years
was a fan of a songwriter who's (apparently) still alive?
Ummmm...maybe 'cuz we come here to talk about folk music?
--
David Rintoul
david....@sympatico.ca
http://www3.sympatico.ca/david.rintoul
"In prosperity, our friends know us. In adversity, we know our friends."
J. Churton Collins
G. M. Watson
discussed in a folk music NG? Unless, of course, you feel that "Bad Bad
Leroy Brown" is a folk song.
----------
In article <3AC7A0AB...@sympatico.ca>, David Rintoul
Gunther W Anderson
: Right. My point exactly. So why is a pop singer like Jim Croce being
: Leroy Brown" is a folk song.
Forgive Mr. Watson. Somehow Croce became a flashpoint for him. He has
blinded himself to Croce's long career as a folk musician even Mr.
Watson would approve of (a short list, it would seem) all because he
dared to be commercially successful with his own writings. He's not
exactly rational on this topic. I recommend leaving him to his
opinions, beyond reproach as they must be. He has the basic assumption
that any commercial success immediately invalidates any artistic
integrity an artist might have, or ever have had.
For an exposition of Mr. Watson's opinions of virtually all music not
anointed by him, look for the thread from a year or so ago called (I
apologize again for my unfortunate misspelling) "Diddin' Dylan (was
Re: "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts")", which was supposed to be
"Dissin' Dylan". It was a discussion of the relative merits of
commercially successful artists who arose from the folk movement,
notably John Denver, another one of Mr. Watson's flashpoints.
If you can find the whole thread, it's tragically amusing and
enlightening. But deja.com only has the last half a dozen messages.
Gunther Anderson
G. M. Watson
all that's right and proper in this NG, and he who knows the intimate
details of my life and thoughts as does no other. I suspected you might
float to the surface again eventually. Still amusing yourself by strangling
puppies and pulling the wings off flies? How I've missed our little
discussions this past year! Have you actually learned a bit about folk music
since we last had one of our little chats? Has your sad little life become
so empty that once again you're forced to taunt me for your pathetic
amusement? My heart bleeds for you.
Cute cat you have, BTW. Have you managed to develop any other meaningful
relationships? One of these day I'll put together a webpage, too, where I
can ramble on about my litle hobbies and perhaps post some winsome photos of
our budgie. In the meantime, I'll certainly know who to turn to when next I
need the lyrics to a Molly Hatchet, Tony Orlando, Journey, or Bryan Adams
song. In fact, a number of the performers at the Folk Alliance conference I
attended in February cited your site as one of the most comprehensive
on-line sources for Billy Joel lyrics. Jody Stecher, Anne Feeney and Lydia
Mendoza were simply agog. What a noble purpose you do fulfill, to be sure.
Well, cheerio. Do belt out a chorus or two of "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"
for me next time you're busking down at the liquor store, won't you?
I remain, as ever, tragically amused, but, I regret to say, wholly
unenlightened by you.
GMW
----------
In article <GB58A...@world.std.com>, gun...@world.std.com (Gunther W
Gunther W Anderson
: details of my life and thoughts as does no other. I suspected you might
: float to the surface again eventually. Still amusing yourself by strangling
: puppies and pulling the wings off flies? How I've missed our little
: discussions this past year! Have you actually learned a bit about folk music
: since we last had one of our little chats? Has your sad little life become
: so empty that once again you're forced to taunt me for your pathetic
: amusement? My heart bleeds for you.
Sigh. All I have said, and I've repeated it often enough that even
_you_ might have picked up on it, is that your self appointment as
guardian of all that is good and pure in the music world, and destroyer
of all that is tainted by the spectre of commercial success, is
narrow-minded and comical. I have said before that you're entitled to
your opinion; why won't you let other people be entitled to theirs? You
join discussions of topics you dislike solely for the purpose of
declaring your dislike for them. That's pretty durned childish, and
pretty durned self-righteous, too.
Let me repeat something I said last August, which I consider to be as
true now as it was then: "You hate too much. It makes you weak and
short-sighted." There is joy in music, whether you choose to see it or
not.
As an aside, have we had more than one discussion? I really only recall
the righteous indignation you suffered at my heretical assertion that
there is no such thing as bad music. Surely it would take more than one
thread to make me your personal bete noir.
: Cute cat you have, BTW. Have you managed to develop any other meaningful
: relationships? One of these day I'll put together a webpage, too, where I
: can ramble on about my litle hobbies and perhaps post some winsome photos of
: our budgie. In the meantime, I'll certainly know who to turn to when next I
: need the lyrics to a Molly Hatchet, Tony Orlando, Journey, or Bryan Adams
: song. In fact, a number of the performers at the Folk Alliance conference I
: attended in February cited your site as one of the most comprehensive
: on-line sources for Billy Joel lyrics. Jody Stecher, Anne Feeney and Lydia
: Mendoza were simply agog. What a noble purpose you do fulfill, to be sure.
It would seem you've forgotten the purpose of music, then. If, that is,
you ever even knew it. My site is, as it has always been, a place for
people to get the lyrics to songs that are widely singable. I know, you
believe that the vast majority of music is utter garbage. I believe
that the vast majority of music is fun; I believe that singing is joy.
My site is a place for people who like to sing. The particular
selection on my site is what I consider to be songs singable by
untrained groups with little or no instrumental accompaniment. Campfire
singing, as it were. To me, and to, presumably, a half a million other
people a year (250,000 hits a month, with an arbitrary guess as to how
many songs each individual looks at), that's _fun_. It's a simple word.
Go look it up. You might be enlightened after all.
You definitely believe that music must only serve a higher, nobler
purpose. This bears a strong resemblance to certain ideas in Plato's
Republic. If you haven't read it, go read it and see what he has to say
about music and its puspose in life, in controlling thought.
Oh, and I am hardly the best source for any of the artists appearing on
my site. OLGA remains considerably larger and more comprehensive, as
does Lyrics World in Brazil, and even the old UWP archives, if you know
where to find them. And I expect, if you bothered to look, even _you_
might find a song or two worthy of your acceptance in the collection. I
am not so narrow as you in my tastes.
And as another aside, ad hominem attacks are the surest sign of a lack
of substance. But I suppose I should be gratified that you chased down
my web site. You never meant enough to me to try to look you up.
: Well, cheerio. Do belt out a chorus or two of "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"
: for me next time you're busking down at the liquor store, won't you?
And there is the true tragedy. You can't imagine that commercially
successful music could be fun; if it's not socially conscious in your
narrow politics, then it's garbage. That is, as I keep saying, tragically
narrow. What other joys in life do you miss because you can't
understand them?
: I remain, as ever, tragically amused, but, I regret to say, wholly
: unenlightened by you.
And yet I am enlightened by you. I learn, though perhaps not what
you're teaching me. You should think really hard about you parting
shot. If you really learn nothing from me, then your mind is truly
closed. You accept no tutelage about the things you like, and you will
brook no instruction about the things you hate. Have you really stopped
growing? Growing on your own terms, only in directions you already
approve of, is hardly growing.
Gunther Anderson
David Rintoul
Name" is pretty folky and "Time in a Bottle", too. But let's not argue about
it. You can't define folk music. Although, I have heard ADG say that folk
music is music played by folks.
Dave
"G. M. Watson" wrote:
--
LanceU1943
into a bickering discussion. I know that Billy Edd is alive, somewhat and maybe
well in Asheville NC, but do not know if he is performing or writing. Maybe we
can get back to the original point of my original
John Albert
G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca wrote:
<< So why is a pop singer like Jim Croce being discussed in a folk music
NG? Unless, of course, you feel that "Bad Bad Leroy Brown" is a folk
song. >>
Ummm... Mr. Watson, how old are you?
I recall seeing Jim at the 1973 Philadelphia Folk Festival, only a
week or two before he died.
His portion of the evening concert was VERY well received by the crowd
in attendance. I guess they weren't folk music fans?
- John (admittedly off-topic)
Maestro
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:3AC7E8...@snet.net...
I was there, too, and recall Jim's excellent version of the Ball of
Kerrymuir.
Steve
Trevor
Jim wrote or performed. How sad.
Trevor.
"G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote in message
news:3ac7...@newsserver1.intergate.ca...
Gus Garelick
No one mentioned he was the co-author of "Jackson"- one of the big hits for Johnny
Cash and June Carter. Another Johnny Cash hit was "Reverend Mr. Black," written
by Billy Edd. I believe he also wrote "Coward of the County", which was a hit
for Kenny Rogers. Lots of other hits for people like Glenn Campbell, Judy Collins,
Bobby Goldsboro, Richie Havens... He has collaborated on many projects with Chet
Atkins, published two books of poems, a play about the Hatfield-McCoy vendetta, and
more. Not your typical folkie-- but that's another topic. He does live in
Swannanoa, NC, which is the site of a well known old time music festival, the
Swannanoa Gathering. What's he doing now? Well, we're back to the original
question. I don't know.
GUS GARELICK
Gunther W Anderson
: I believe he also wrote "Coward of the County", which was a hit
: for Kenny Rogers.
Co-written by Wheeler with Roger Bowling, for anyone keeping score.
Gunther Anderson
Ginger-lyn Summer
No one has mentioned my all-time favorite Billy Edd Wheeler song --
the anti-strip mining song, "They Can't Put it Back".
I recall reading one of his poetry books in college. The man is
definitely multi-talented. I hope whatever he is doing, he is still
creating wonderful things, and we'll hear from him soon.
Ginger-lyn
G. M. Watson
previous ones. Long post, mostly directed at two irritatingly smug people in
this NG. Anyone else, read at your peril (although some may find it to be of
interest...)
...GW
----------
In article <3aceb6fa$0$25474$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>, "Trevor"
<trevor@home> wrote:
Well, see, Trevor, that's the difference between me, and you and Gunther. I
hear the phrase "folk music" and it makes me think of people like (if, just
to simplify, we arbitrarily restrict the discussion to white American folk
music) Tommy Jarrell, Dock Boggs, Hazel Dickens, Utah Phillips, Aunt Molly
Jackson, Doc Watson, Jody Stecher & Kate Brislin, Sara Ogan Gunning, Jean
Ritchie, Roscoe Holcomb, Almeda Riddle, Nimrod Workman, and the (original)
Carter Family. To name only a very few. In other words, a magnificent and
still-living musical heritage that's in never-ending danger of drowning in
the vast sea of shit that is modern American pop music, the growth of Folk
Alliance and a pitifully few crossover successes like Ani DiFranco
notwithstanding. What we have here is a musical heritage that is an
endangered species.
"Folk music" for you guys, on the other hand, is evidently epitomized by Jim
Croce and top-40/MOR success.
Hey, each to his or her own. Just a single recording by Dock Boggs-- "Oh
Death" comes to mind-- alone means ten thousand times more to me than Jim
Croce's entire recorded output. Nothing personal, but there it is. I guess
I'm naive enough to still be surprised that there are some people out there
who call themselves folk music fans who don't feel the same way.
But I will say this: I spent more than 15 years of my life working, mostly
on a volunteer basis, with a bunch of other dedicated and talented people to
try to keep "folk" and other indigenous, authentic and endangered musics
alive and promote that cause thru the medium of one of North America's
largest folk festivals and, for several years, on radio. It was hard bloody
work for all of us a lot of the time, an uphill struggle in the face of
perpetual wilful ignorance on the part of the mass audience (I used to
argue, only half-kiddingly, that we should call the event an "alternative
acoustic music festival" in an attempt to broaden our audience), and it cost
me much; physically, emotionally and even financially.
And now, along come arrogant johnny-come-latelies like you and Gunther,
neither of whom knows anything about me or my background, who think they're
qualified to judge me; who sneeringly dismiss me as a "supposed" folk music
fan because I don't happen to care for John Denver and Jim Croce. A sort of
Reaganite take on folk music, I guess. The metaphor is apt; being concerned
with the survival of authentic American musical forms is a bit like being a
leftist in Bush2's America. There is simply no tolerance by Republicans
these days for anything that questions the Republican party line, and
American mass popular culture is pretty similar in its intolerance of the
different.
Re the Croce-as-folkie claims made by you and others: Strange that in 30+
years of exploring the genre and its literature, I have never once seen
Croce cited by *anyone*, not only as a significant force or an influence in
American folk music, but even as a participant in the 60s folk revival. He
was a significant figure in early 70s pop music, certainly, but in folk
music?? So he appeared at Newport? So what? That means he was a folksinger,
forever and always? If Diana Krall was to appear at Bayreuth, would that
make her an opera singer, or merely someone who sang in an opera? Here's a
newsflash: Quite a number of people appeared at Newport over the years who
never became stars, who never made much of a lasting impact in the folk
music field, such as it was and is. Croce had a smooth delivery, a
charismatic personality, and a pleasant, radio-friendly, MOR style. He fit
comfortably into the early 70s singer-songwriter genre, somewhere to the
right of James Taylor. Had he never gone for that plane ride, I have no
doubt he would have become a huge star, and would probably be still enjoying
success, probably in Nashville. Does that mean he should be placed in the
American folk music pantheon with the others I've mentioned? I don't think
so, but there are apparently people like you and Gunther who do, for reasons
best known to yourselves.
I remember how those of us who worked so hard to keep the festival going
used to wonder, after another intense weekend facilitating the presentation
of over 100 performers from 40 countries to 30,000 people, why the whole
damn world wasn't listening to all this great music, 'cause it was clearly
the best on the planet. Over and over again through the years I'd hear
comments from audience members along the lines of "...where has this
incredible music *been* all my life...?!" Well, if you rely on the
mainstream media for your cultural stimulation and edification, it's no
bloody wonder you never encountered such music before . Radio programmers
are, not surprisingly far more likely to program a nice safe Jim Croce
song-- or, more likely, something more recent by a similarly marketable
performer-- for their audience than something by, say, Hazel Dickens. Croce
is (was) a far safer, less demanding, more accessible, less challenging
performing artist than any of the ones I've mentioned. And I guess that's
why I resent the likes of him and John Denver; because, like starlings, they
overwhelm by sheer numbers music that is more authentic, more honest, more
raw and more rewarding for me and the hundreds of people I personally know
who feel like I do (and not just folkies. Some of them are diehard
20-something rockers who despise the kind of bands that make it to the cover
of Rolling Stone). How many record stores in your town can you walk into and
find a Jean Ritchie CD, or even one of Tom Russell's? Pathetically few in
mine, and that's in a metro area of a million and a half. The unbreakable
dominance of radio and sales-friendly performers in the music industry
leaves precious little room for alternatives. The same thing has happened in
rock music in recent years; the advent of the Net and other factors has left
a once monolitihic, ruthlessly-manipulated musical culture in fragments. And
that's all to the good. Independent thinking is the key to saving a culture.
Unfortunately, hard-core folk artists will never command audiences
sufficient to make them a credible threat to the established musical order.
Well, anyway, believe whatever the hell you want. Ultimately, it doesn't
matter to me any more than anything I've just said will matter to you or
Gunther. Just don't waste your time and mine trying to convince me that Jim
Croce is a more important folk artist than, say, Aunt Molly Jackson and that
somehow my life is incomplete without him. I've spent way, way too many
years seeking out hidden treasures and alternatives to the musical
mainstream to ever want to go back to it. I have an ever-expanding,
multi-genre collection of about 5000 LPs, CDs and tapes that sustains me in
my search. Gunther, who ignorantly (and amusingly) assumes that I loathe
*all* pop music or,indeed, *any* music that's commercially successful, would
no doubt be astonished to learn that it includes a remarkably eclectic
selection: From Johannes Ockhegem to Eric Dolphy to Fela Kuti to Hank
Williams to Paul Robeson to Alim Qasimov to Son House to Prokofiev to
Kinshi Tsuruta to Waterson/Carthy to Hanns Eisler to Frank Sinatra to
Psarantonis to Diamanda Galas to Kraftwerk, Parliament, Primus, Captain
Beefheart, Midnight Oil, Laibach and Social Distortion. And far beyond. Lots
of underservedly obscure, non-commercial stuff, and also quite a number of
household names (depending on the household). However, Jim Croce, I fear,
will never be a part of this collection, and I have no regrets about that at
all. I've heard all the Croce I ever need or want to. I've still got way,
*way* too much great music to check out in my remaining years to waste my
increasingly precious time any more on dross. Sorry.
I've been flamed to near-ashes in this NG a number of times before for
holding strong views and opinions, but the musical causes I've long served
demand and deserve no less. Spending life travelling the (sometimes) far
fringes of popular culture is like being a preacher in a hostile pagan
wilderness; it's not for wimps. You gotta believe passionately in the worth
of what you're doing; and I do. And I will not compromise in those beliefs.
For that, I make no apologies.
GMW
>
>
CSJ
> Well, see, Trevor, that's the difference between me, and you and Gunther.
I
> hear the phrase "folk music" and it makes me think of people like (if,
just
> to simplify, we arbitrarily restrict the discussion to white American
folk
> music) Tommy Jarrell, Dock Boggs, Hazel Dickens, Utah Phillips, Aunt Molly
> Jackson, Doc Watson, Jody Stecher & Kate Brislin, Sara Ogan Gunning, Jean
> Ritchie, Roscoe Holcomb, Almeda Riddle, Nimrod Workman, and the (original)
> Carter Family. .....
Quite properly
> "Folk music" for you guys, on the other hand, is evidently epitomized by
Jim
> Croce
Croce is and, to the bets of my knowledge always was, a pop singer.
> And now, along come arrogant johnny-come-latelies like you and Gunther,
> neither of whom knows anything about me or my background, who think
they're
> qualified to judge me; who sneeringly dismiss me as a "supposed" folk
music
> fan because I don't happen to care for John Denver and Jim Croce.
Neither of these guys have anything in particular to do wit folk music.
They may be nice, I don't know really, I never listened to Core and long ago
got bored with Denver. Joan Arm is, or was, a truly splendid singer, but
that doesn't make her a folk singer. Frank Sinatra was a great singer, but
hardly a folk singer. Bob Dylan began as a folk singer and wandered off
into the haze of the avant garde, a fine singer, but hardly a folk singer in
any sense of the term I'm familiar with. Peter Paul and Mary were a nice
group and politically significant at one time with their recording of a song
which only ten years earlier had been the subject of a HUAC investigation,
but they wandered largely from the folk scene as such. Etc. etc. etc.
Why can't these people be folk singers? Why do they have to be. Surely it
makes some sense to reserve the term for people with a more tangible
connection to traditional music. The folk scene is rarely pure and always
messy, but not everyone who performs with [yet another] guitar is a folk
singer. Surely a folk singer cannot be a person who only, or largely,
performs his or her own avant garde poetry.
Go get 'em Watson!
Stephen Suffet
>
> However, Jim Croce, I fear, will never be a part of this collection,
> and I have no regrets about that at all. I've heard all the Croce I
> ever need or want to. I've still got way, *way* too much great music
> to check out in my remaining years to waste my increasingly precious
> time any more on dross. Sorry.
>
To say nothing of the fact that Jim Croce's biggest hit perpetuates
some God-awful racial stereotype! The last time I was in Ireland and
singing some American folk songs, someone asked me if I could do the
one about "the bad-ass n----- with a razor." "You mean Stagolee?" I
asked. "No, I mean Bad, Bad Leroy Brown," he replied.
Nuff said!
--- Steve
P&R
news:3AD5C7...@worldnet.att.net...
> To say nothing of the fact that Jim Croce's biggest hit perpetuates
> some God-awful racial stereotype! The last time I was in Ireland and
> singing some American folk songs, someone asked me if I could do the
> one about "the bad-ass n----- with a razor." "You mean Stagolee?" I
> asked. "No, I mean Bad, Bad Leroy Brown," he replied.
>
I am not going to get into the argument over whether Jim Croce was folk or
not (because I agree, with the possible exception of the Early Jim and
Ingred Album that he was primarily a POP Musician and not a Folk Musician).
What I would say in response to the racial issue brought up in this thread
is that I am very familiar with the Lyrics to Leroy Brown and no where in
the song does it say that Leroy Brown is an African American. I know
several white men including my grandfather and one of my uncles that are
named Leroy, and Brown is also a common surname for people of various ethnic
backgrounds. I also know that white people also hang out in pool halls and
shoot dice. So I would respectfully disagree with you that Bad Bad Leroy
Brown perpetuates a racial stereotype. Perhaps it is the people who assume
that Leroy Brown was an African American that are perpetuating the
stereotype.
Ray from Rochester, NY
Trombone, Euphonium, Keyboard,
Guitar Player, and Mandolin Player wanna be.
Maestro
folk music revival. His knowledge of folk music was comprehensive and
longstanding. Gaining fame with original, acoustic popular songs does not
negate those facts. Perhaps those who say that he was not a folksinger are
unaware of his life and music before his fame or blinded by their dislike
for "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" (it's not one of my favorite songs either). Thus,
I present the following information for your consideration and am interested
if such a background would make one a folksinger.
During the early 1960s, while a student at Villanova, Jim was a member of
two folk groups, the Spires and the Coventry Lads. The Spires was an
official college group, while the Coventry Lads was an off-campus version.
He performed live at area campuses and recorded with each group, singing
lead on "This Land is Your Land," "Kilgarra Mountain," and "Greenback
Dollar."
At that time, he hosted one of the first folk music radio shows in the
Philadelphia area (I think Gene Shay's show was first) on the Villanova
station. He would often perform and jam with fellow students like Don
McLean, Tim Hauser (later, a founder of the Manhattan Transfer, Tom Picardo
(as Tommy West he performed with Cashman and West and became Jim's
producer), and Jim Ryan of the Critters.
In 1964, Jim was one of four students (out of thousands of applicants) who
won a National Student Association tour of the Middle East and Africa.
There, he studied the culture and learned the traditional songs of various
countries, which he brought back to Villanova and performed on his radio
show. He also shared and taught American folk music to the foreign musicians
that he met. During this period, he was a regular performer and opening act
at many folk clubs in the Philadelphia area like the Main Point, the Second
Fret, and the Gilded Cage. Onstage, his instruments included harmonica and
six and 12 string guitars, including a National steel guitar.
In 1965, Jim recorded two songs for The Miners' Story, an Emmy-nominated
documentary dealing with the plight of Pennsylvania coal miners. The songs
he chose were "Coal Tattoo" by Billy Ed Wheeler and "Down, Down, Down"
(from a collection of coal mining songs). The next year he recorded an album
called Facets that contained original material along with songs by Wheeler,
Eric Von Schmidt, Buffy Saint Marie, Gordon Lightfoot, and new arrangements
of traditional songs. He attended and performed at many of the Philadelphia
Folk Festivals and was a featured performer with his wife Ingrid at the 1970
festival. His backstage jam at that event with Doc Watson, David Bromberg,
and John Hartford was exceptional and mentioned in the local media. Even
after his fame in 1973, he returned to the Philly Festival (and the
Cambridge Folk Festival) and performed original material in addition to folk
songs. There, Norman Kennedy called him, "A very fine musician" and said
"It's lovely to see that a man can still make it in this business, industry,
whatever it is . . . " During his set, Jim sang Robert Burns' "Ball of
Kerrymuir," a song he loved and often sang in concert.
Jim's repertoire included thousands of folk songs, particularly those of the
British Isles. He often sang seafaring and bawdy songs, some of which he
learned in his travels and others from old Oscar Brand albums. "The Good
Ship Venus" was one of his favorites. Another gem was his rendition of
Rudyard Kipling's poem "Gunga Din," which Jim set to music.
Jim died in a plane crash about a month after the 1973 Philly Folk Festival,
(it was the last time I saw him). Shortly before his death, he spoke of
wanting to pursue a master's degree in folklore at Penn. I can verify the
above information as I was Jim's cousin and, through him, I learned a lot
about folk music and life. As a reporter for an entertainment newspaper, I
have encountered scores of musicians who have lauded his music and spoken of
his influence upon them. I believe Jim Croce was a troubadour in the folk
tradition and carried folk songs with him throughout his many travels and
short life.
Steve Angelucci
Jerry Dallal
: Jim Croce came out of a strong folk music background and was a part of the
: folk music revival. His knowledge of folk music was comprehensive and
: longstanding. Gaining fame with original, acoustic popular songs does not
: negate those facts. Perhaps those who say that he was not a folksinger are
: unaware of his life and music before his fame or blinded by their dislike
: for "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" (it's not one of my favorite songs either). Thus,
: I present the following information for your consideration and am interested
: if such a background would make one a folksinger.
Interesting. As my posting history will attest, I rarely participate in
these threads. The one outstanding exception was an RFD many years ago
attemptin to split the group into rec.music.folk.traditional and
rec.music.folk.[we never could agree what the second term should be].
The effort was abandoned because concensus could not be reached. The
proposal never made it to a CFV.
What caught my eye about this thread is the last query (before I
snipped the rest)--"if such a
background would make one a folksinger"! The never-ending discussion is
usually phrased in terms of the music (is that folk music?) rather than
the performer, so it was interesting to see this twist. If we admit the
question (is s/he a folk singer?) is well-posed [I'm not sure it is], then
perhaps the answer can be framed as "So-and-so is a folk singer insofoar
as s/he has raised the expectation that when found singing, s/he will be
singing folk music!" Thus, some may consider a performer to be a
folksinger while others do not according to how they perceive the
material. (When Wycliff Jean did his interpretation of Delia at the Johnny
Cash tribute, at that moment was he a folk singer?)
I would guess that most of us could agree that there are three kinds of
music with respect to these discussions--(1) music that everyone agrees is
'folk', (3) singer/songwriter/pop that almost no one would classify
as 'folk', and (2) everything in between. The problem is that (2) is so
broad that it's almost impossible to come up with a definition of 'folk'
music that everyone can accept as final. And that's without even
raising the question of what the distinction, if any, might be between
'folk' and 'traditional'!
Still, it doesn't mean that these discussions shouldn't take place every
so often. They're valuable for the focus they provide, even if a final
resolution is impossible,
Diana Gregory
Someone else posted this already, but I did a google search
on the song, and none of the variants I found could I find reference
to the song being about any specific race.
The fact that I was married to a bartender who worked at a
bar frequented by Hell's Angels always made me think that
that was what the - errr - protagonist was...
Diana
Gunther W Anderson
: I would guess that most of us could agree that there are three kinds of
: music with respect to these discussions--(1) music that everyone agrees is
: 'folk', (3) singer/songwriter/pop that almost no one would classify
: as 'folk', and (2) everything in between. The problem is that (2) is so
: broad that it's almost impossible to come up with a definition of 'folk'
: music that everyone can accept as final. And that's without even
: raising the question of what the distinction, if any, might be between
: 'folk' and 'traditional'!
It's probably useful to remember that part of what spurred this whole
mess on was the question, and I quote, "So why is a pop singer like Jim
Croce being discussed in a folk music NG?"
The responses on one side seem to be saying that Croce sang folk music,
and therefore is admissable. The posters on the other side (which,
with one exception, are not arguing that he be excluded anyway) all seem
to be saying "But he's not a FOLK singer," because he's best known for
original compositions.
I would posit that it's the music that is folk or not, not the
performer. There is nobody who (that I'm aware of) performs only True
Folk music. Everyone is guilty, at one point or another, of singing
either popular songs or original compositions. So nobody is a pure,
true folk musician. I might accept that somebody who never, ever sang
versions of folk music might be inadmissable. But should we be
chastised for discussing Wyclef Jean's version of Delia, because it
wasn't performed by an accepted folk musician, and performed in a
canonically acecptable way? I would argue not.
But then, I'm not trying to preserve the Purity Of Essence of either the
group or Folk Music. I think we have quite enough Gen. Rippers about.
I roll my eyes when people close their minds, but I positively bristle
when people order other people to close their minds. And if you
preserve something and refuse to let it grow, you are not keeping it
alive. You are keeping it preserved. Like in formaldehyde.
Sorry about that last paragraph - it's not intended as a response to the
posting I'm following up, just a venting of thoughts pent up from
previous postings.
Gunther Anderson
Stephen Suffet
>
>
> Someone else posted this already, but I did a google search
> on the song, and none of the variants I found could I find reference
> to the song being about any specific race.
>
> The fact that I was married to a bartender who worked at a
> bar frequented by Hell's Angels always made me think that
> that was what the - errr - protagonist was...
>
Greetings:
Jim Croce's lyrics begin "The South Side of Chicago is the baddest
part of town..." While the song doesn't mention race per se, it leaves
little to the imagination. Unless, you suppose Bad, Bad Leroy Brown
was a white University of Chicago student who carried " a .32 gun in
his pocket for fun and a razor blade in his shoe" for protection. With
his "custom Continental and an El Dorado, too" he may have been one of
Dr. Friedman's grad students in economics, but certainly no Hell's
Angel. :-)
--- Steve
Gunther W Anderson
: Jim Croce's lyrics begin "The South Side of Chicago is the baddest
: part of town..." While the song doesn't mention race per se, it leaves
: little to the imagination. Unless, you suppose Bad, Bad Leroy Brown
: was a white University of Chicago student who carried " a .32 gun in
: his pocket for fun and a razor blade in his shoe" for protection. With
: his "custom Continental and an El Dorado, too" he may have been one of
: Dr. Friedman's grad students in economics, but certainly no Hell's
: Angel. :-)
I think the statement that it perpetuates racial stereotypes is valid.
If you recognize them in the song, it certainly perpetuates them. If
you didn't know them in the first place, then it's a race-neutral sort
of song. But if someone wrote a song about a guy with leather pants, a
wide-brim leopard-skin hat, and fish in the soles of his shoes, people
who remember Super Fly would know what the author was talking about; but
other people might miss it entirely.
Now, I'm one of the people who didn't get the stereotyping, but that
doesn't mean that it wasn't there. In retrospect, the clues were there,
whether or not they meant anything to me. But I wouldn't hold Croce
responsible for someone in Europe using the N word. It's no more
offensive a song than Rapid Roy, which paints its own stereotypes about
white trash runnin' shine out o' Alabam'.
But we are straying from folk music here, since the song itself won't be
a folk song for another couple of decades. Maybe a century.
Hey, here's a thought. Some people believe a song is only a folk song
where there is no identifiable author - it must have arisen
spontaneously from the primordial subconscious ooze. With modern
record-keeping and the financial incentive for claiming intellectual
property rights, will there ever be another folk song?
Gunther Anderson
Stephen Suffet
>
> But we are straying from folk music here, since the song itself
> won't be a folk song for another couple of decades. Maybe a
> century.
>
Greetings:
Having criticized the late Jim Croce for perpetuating a negative
racial stereotype, which I believe he did in "Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown,"
let me now rise to his defense. I consider him as much a folksinger as
any other singer-songwriter, whether he/she be a Phil Ochs, Sidney
Carter, Christine Lavin, Ewan MacColl, Tom Paxton, Malvina Reynolds,
Ralph McTell, or whoever. "Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown," in particular, is
in the fine tradition of outlaw ballads, and it has entered what can
be called "the tradition" to the extent that I have heard it trans-
formed into blues, bluegrass, and reggae versions. I have also heard
it as an elevator music instrumental, and I am certain someone could
work it into a solid Dixieland, jug band, or Boston Pops number! And,
of course, I have heard it parodied, my favorite being, "Bad, Bad Eva
Braun"!
--- Steve
CSJ
> Gunther W Anderson wrote:
> >
> Having criticized the late Jim Croce for perpetuating a negative
> racial stereotype, which I believe he did in "Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown,"
> let me now rise to his defense. I consider him as much a folksinger as
The song you cite is largely in the tradition of black faced minstrelsy
trading on supposed black character types and black dialect "..Leroy, he a
gambler. . ." You can see Leroy as a more modern counterpart of Jim Crow.
Still insidiously racist and still reprehensible.
Why consider him a folk singer? Why does he have to be? He was a pop star
trading on the prejudice of his day.
Tom Nelligan
> Hey, here's a thought. Some people believe a song is only a folk song
> where there is no identifiable author - it must have arisen
> spontaneously from the primordial subconscious ooze. With modern
> record-keeping and the financial incentive for claiming intellectual
> property rights, will there ever be another folk song?
The fact that a song's author is "known" doesn't prevent it from being
passed around from singer to singer to the point where the author is no
longer known to the person performing it. Tom Paxton tells the story of
hearing a London busker singing "Ramblin' Boy", asking the singer how
she knew the song, and being told in all sincerity that it was an Irish
traditional song that she had learned from her grandfather. Si Kahn's
"Aragon Mill" has been floating around Ireland as "Belfast Mill", which
some singers will swear is an old trad song. And there are many more
examples of that sort of thing. A song that is good enough will
eventually travel far enough that it becomes "traditional", even if its
author is still collecting royalties on the original recording.
--Tom Nelligan
LanceU1943
arguments 40 years ago about what was pure folk and what was folk oriented.
After all, Bob Dylan used the styles he heard and the songs that had been
played to push folk music in the direction where his would be the influence on
contemporary music that it has been. Anyone who loves THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL,
BEST SUNG BY CROFUT AND LUXON, also recognizes the same lyrical music as Bob
Dylan's Faretheewell, most notably sung by Judy Collins, way way back. It is
nice and reassuring to know that some things don't change, and thank God for
the diversity in the world. It would be boring if we all liked the same stuff.
Chris Rockcliffe
"G. M. Watson" wrote:
(Long diatribe cut...)
> Spending life travelling the (sometimes) far
> fringes of popular culture is like being a preacher in a hostile pagan
> wilderness; it's not for wimps. You gotta believe passionately in the worth
> of what you're doing; and I do. And I will not compromise in those beliefs.
Holy shit, seems like for the last 36 years... I've been treating the whole
'folk' genre with a superficial light heartedness and a contemptuous disregard
for the innate seriousness of it all.... I thought it was just good fun and as
far as playing is concerned - a challenge to learn!
'A preacher in a hostile pagan wilderness'?... 'not for wimps'?
I'm sure you're sincere in your beliefs, (I, for one wouldn't dream of asking
you to compromise them, whatever they are), but isn't it bloody music - playing
singing and enjoying we're talking about here... laughter, pleasure, sadness,
emotion, occasional seriousness, learning the joys of musical cultures and
sub-cultures; songs and tunes and enjoying music - and which occasionally
touches the soul? etc etc?
Millions would disagree with you about Jim Croce; of whether he was a 'folk'
singer; his music, his ability, his huge repertoire (600 songs I read
somewhere). I personally love the guy's music and lyrics; would certainly
classify him as 'folk' (at least in the US sense) along with very many artistes
- including many you've mentioned.
Turning folk music into a political - almost religious crusade and apparently
dividing folk up into those who are worthy or unworthy, seems a surefire way of
putting off the very people you claim you have tried - and are trying to
influence and interest in this whole genre we call 'folk' music. FWIW, maybe
the likes of Croce or Denver - great entertainers both - did turn many people on
to other things in folk music of which you might even approve?.
I like music, lots of it, different styles and there is room for ALL of it. I'm
not one for PC attitudes in music... or that we cannot sing about this subject,
or that - historically or not - in or out of context... or whether this person
is 'folk' and the other isn't. Your definition of 'folk', or what is good, or
bad, worthy or not, is entirely your own and probably differs from everyone
else's ideas.
Are you a musician? Seems from this, like you need to loosen up a bit GM - and
rediscover the sheer joy of 'folk' music and of live performance. Folk is -
first and foremost - entertainment. I reminded myself of that fact before
playing publicly last week. If it ceases to be that, it virtually ceases to
exist.
gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
Hojo2x
>I'm sure you're sincere in your beliefs,
> but isn't it bloody music - playing
>singing and enjoying we're talking about here...
No, actually, Chris, what we're talking about is two essentially irreconcilable
views on folk music.
In Buddhism, as I understand it, there is the "greater vessel" approach (easier
rules, more people get saved) and the "smaller vessel" approach (tighter rules,
only the truly devout and studious and correct make it in....)
In folk music circles it's much the same, only there seems to be less
compassion and mercy shown.
As an acoustic music performer who comes from a traditional music family, I've
dealt with folk music bureaucrats like G.M. Watson all my adult life.
At their best, they keep the flame lit for traditional culture. At their
worst, they're terrible snobs and attempt to go about crushing the slightest
innovation before it has a chance to "infect" anyone else.
Fortunately, most truly creative musicians are very open-minded about all sorts
of music and influences - nothing is a threat to the creative. (It's the
mediocrities who seem to take any change as a personal threat....)
I haven't read enough of Mr. Watson's posts to even hazard a guess as to where
he lies on the continuum of "folk music purists."
But it doesn't really matter - there'll always be guys like him out there, and
nothing you or I or anyone else can say will have the slightest effect on how
they go about their business.
And nothing he can do or say will have the slightest effect on me, frankly - I
consider Jim Croce a terrific folk-based performer who wrote some memorable
story songs that are well worth doing: "You Don't Mess Around With Slim" and
"Speedball Tucker" are great little vignettes, snapshots in time that are very
specific and still hold up today. I could do without "Time In A Bottle" or "I
Had To Say I Love You In A Song," but "Operator" is still poignant, hackneyed
as the setup might be.
Be that as it may, my main point is that you're not going to get G.M. to
lighten up, and he's not going to get you or me to straighten up and treat this
topic with the seriousness and high-minded exclusivity he evidently thinks it
warrants.
And that's why this is a FOLK process - it's decentralized, anarchic, and we're
all just doing what we damn well please.
Just as we always have.
That which is worthwhile in folk culture will survive, and that which is
mediocre or poor or no longer serves a purpose will wither and fade from
memory.
Just as it always has.
Wade Hampton Miller
Stephen Suffet
>
> "Stephen Suffet" <Suf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3ADA12...@worldnet.att.net..
> > >
> > Having criticized the late Jim Croce for perpetuating a negative
> > racial stereotype, which I believe he did in "Bad, Bad, Leroy
> > Brown," let me now rise to his defense. I consider him as much a
> > folksinger as any other singer-songwriter, . . .
>
> The song you cite is largely in the tradition of black faced
> minstrelsy trading on supposed black character types and black
> dialect "..Leroy, he a gambler. . ." You can see Leroy as a more
> modern counterpart of Jim Crow.
> Still insidiously racist and still reprehensible.
>
> Why consider him a folk singer? Why does he have to be? He was a
> pop star trading on the prejudice of his day.
Greetings:
As the one who originally raised the issue of Jim Croce perpetuating a
racial stereotype in "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown," I agree with your first
paragraph. My defense of Croce, if it can be called a defense at all,
is that he is as much of a folksinger as any of the other singer-
songwriters I cite, all of whom base their musiv in folk traditions.
That doesn't mean that you have to agree with the content of their
lyrics. For example, I suspect you would take exception to Phil Ochs'
anti-lesbian commentary: "I go to civil rights rallies, I put down the
old D.A.R. -- D.A.R., that's the Dykes of the American Revolution..."
I also commented that "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" has itself entered the
folk process, in that it has been transformed into blues, bluegrass,
and reggae. It's not the only pop song to undergo such changes. Both
"Red River Valley" (originally "Bright Mohawk Valley") and "Copper
Kettle" came from musical plays that has long since been forgotten.
Even "Donna, Donna" began on the musical stage, the Yiddish musical
stage at that!
The comparison with blackface mistrelsy is an apt one. But recall that
even abolitionists wrote in that style. Consider, for example, Henry
C. Work's "Year of Jubilo": "Say, darkies hab yo seen de massa wif de
muffstash on his face..." Change "darkies" to "brothers" and get rid
of the fake dialect, and you are left with a song that even Pete
Seeger could record --- which he did! In fact, even James Bland, who
actually was black, wrote songs in that mistrel style, "Carry Me Back
to Old Virginny," for example. (Bland, by the way, was a Tin Pan Alley
composer who was born in Flushing, New York. I believe he never even
visited Virginia until after the song had become popular.)
Yeah, I'll stand by both my statements. Jim Croce was as much a folk-
singer as any singer-songwriter who attempts to compose within a folk
tradition. And, yes, Jim Croce wrote and sang a song, an outlaw ballad
at that, which perpetuates a negative stereotype.
--- Steve
David Rintoul
folk music. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. But it occurred to me that
the folks who write dictionaries have to define things whether they like it or not.
The Oxford English Dictionary (and it seems to me that they do some pretty serious
scholarship at Oxford, if serious scholarship matters to you) defines folk music
like this:
"Traditional music or modern music in this style"
And the definition of a folk song goes like this:
"a song of popular or traditional origin or style".
So, it seems like folk music isn't just limited to traditional music. It all
depends on how each of us wants to define "modern music in this style" or what we
mean by "popular".
All this fuss and feathers about whether a folk song is really a popular song or
not seems to me to be a bit like chasing your tail. All those singer songwriters
from the seventies like Jim Croce, John Denver, Harry Chapin, Cat Stevens, Joni
Mitchell, Janis Ian, James Taylor and so on may not have written the kind of folk
music you would hear in a museum. But, like Chris said, they probably got a lot of
people, especially younger people, interested in acoustic music.
I bet a lot of them took an interest in more traditional kinds of acoustic music
from hearing these contemporary singer songwriters. I bet some of them even took
up playing folk music (depending on your definition, of course) after hearing
musicians like that. So, they may have kept a lot of traditional folk songs alive
in one way or another.
You don't have to label them "folk" if you don't want to. Labels are for
detergents anyway. And you don't have to like them, either. I don't know why it's
so important to some people that other folks have the same taste in music as they
have. "To each his own," as the cowboy said when he kissed his horse.
I have found that I get more pleasure out of liking something that out of not
liking something.
Chris Rockcliffe
David Rintoul wrote:
> I wasn't going to get into this thread. I said a while back that you can't define
> folk music.
(excellent post cut)
> I have found that I get more pleasure out of liking something than out of not
> liking something.
I feel that maybe this should be the motto of not just this but many other music NGs at
times when these kinds of silly arguments crop up.
Well said.
gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
MAIB
CSJ
Well you raise the delightfully complex intricacies of the matter. Foster (
Carry Me Back ....) stated that his goal was to write good minstrel songs
instead of what he considered to be the trashy and offensive ones. Work's
Year of Jubilo song is actually within a definable tradition of songs that
are sympathetic to the black man, as was the case with a number of minstrel
songs. The problem of Bowdlerization of lyrics is unsolvable.
I am only familiar with Croce's pop material and never cared much for it,
but that is no comment on its aesthetic merits. Still, just because someone
was once a folkie in his college days does not mean that he is folk singer
in any sense. Fred warring started out with a banjo band which later became
a choir. This does not make Warring a folk musician.
Diana Gregory
>
>So, it seems like folk music isn't just limited to traditional music. It all
>depends on how each of us wants to define "modern music in this style" or what we
>mean by "popular".
(much snippage)
Besides - *ALL* songs were written by someone, at some time.
It's only in the 20th century that anyone could even start to
differentiate classifications, because of recorded media.
I'd bet that the 'known folk songs' were all considered to be
'popular' at some point.
Are 'folks songs' like 'antiques', where they have to be some
specific number of years old before they become part of the
'folk culture'?
Diana
Jerry Dallal
: Fred warring started out with a banjo band which later became
: a choir. This does not make Warring a folk musician.
But his invention of the Waring blender might! :-)
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.nospam.com
I had a very strange experience recently which highlighted roughly what
I think you're saying. A good 12 years ago I became very interested in
what I thought was "traditional Irish music" when listening to a relatively
local musician. He was from Ireland and claimed to play exclusively
"Traditional Irish music". It sparked a wider interest in the form over
the years and since then I have gathered other recordings of irish performers.
I often would comment that some of them were quite nice but that they
didn't seem to quite have the "serious style" that I really enjoyed.
Well, just a few months ago the local newspaper had an article on my
fav irish singer. In it he admitted that his roots were in jazz and
blues and that he only began singing irish folk music when he came to
this country. It suddenly strikes me (I'm blaming it on the pints I
drank while listening) that his ballads aren't some "serious irish
style", it was irish ballads sung by a blues singer. I confirmed
this the next time I saw him. "Ah, sure", he says, "you wouldn't
be finding anyone singing these ballads my way back home. They'd
probably troh me out of the pub singin' 'em dis way".
I came to "folk music" in my youth listening to Chad Mitchel
and Arlo Gutherie and then transitioned to listening to more
"traditional" artists like Pete Seager, then on to old recordings
of Woodie Gutherie. Of course my "folk rock" days also lead me
to Peter Paul and Mary then on to John Denver which lead to Dan
Fogelburg. In there somewhere I found Janis Ian which has ultimately
lead me to Dar Williams. In the midst of following my Irish singer,
I found Mary Black and Christy Moore. And trying to get through
the '80s on a college campus had me exploring music like Manhattan
Transfer. Hey, what can I say. I love folk music, I'm just not
always sure what it is.
But I know that if you listen to the theme song to "Dangerous
Minds" you won't be listening to a rap song. And in my book, it's
just another folks song, sorta, in a rather, um, common folk kinda
way.
Well, I'm sure I just insulted about everyone. But please do
understand, I like all of this music, even if I don't know what
style it's suppose to be. It all seems to just be pop music that's
always been "pop".
David Wald
Neither was I, but after thinking for a couple of days this came out
anyway:
>I said a while back that you can't define folk music. That's my
>story and I'm sticking to it. But it occurred to me that the folks
>who write dictionaries have to define things whether they like it or
>not.
[OED definition clipped]
The trouble with going to the dictionaries for a ruling on a word is
that dictionaries are generally descriptive of actual use. We already
know that "folk music" is used by various people to mean "traditional
music" (which is itself a problematic term) or "modern music that
sounds like traditional music", or "music that sounds like music that
sounded like traditional music" or, as in the start of this thread,
"music composed by someone associated with folk music (see definitions
1-4)", though that last doesn't seem to be covered by the OED
definition you gave. If a dictionary tells us that all these are
meanings of folk music then we've just confirmed that different people
use the term in a lot of ways.
The other people who have to make the term precise (or at least had to
- many have abandonded it) are those collecting and studying folk
music, since they'll be called on to say exactly what it is they're
studying. They need a term for what they're dealing with, and they
need to be as clear in their meaning as possible. They will and do
sometimes replace a term that has grown impossibly fuzzy, but they
can't do that too often without becoming incomprehensible to
themselves.
I'll disagree with one implication later in the post I'm replying to:
Music labels can be useful. If you're thinking as a participant in
the music, though, the problem with going to the strict definitions is
that those definitions are usually more about the process or context
that produced the music than about the music itself. Labels are
useful to participants in the music for a different purpose: they're
used to say what some bit of music sounds like. Categories for this
purpose aren't firm, they aren't properly historical, they aren't
exclusive, and they aren't absolute, but they are useful to a lot of
people, which is how whoever came up with a term can lose control over
it over time.
So, fine, "folk", "traditional" and "celtic" have all had their
different degrees of shifts in meaning, and they'll keep on shifting,
and it's pretty much impossible to turn back a widespread shift like
that. Nevertheless, it might not be a bad idea for us to remember the
next time this conversation comes by for us to remember with some
sympathy the less fortunate: the scholars and collectors, who keep
losing their words.
-David
--
============================================================================
David Wald http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~wald/ wa...@theory.lcs.mit.edu
============================================================================
David Rintoul
> The trouble with going to the dictionaries for a ruling on a word is
> that dictionaries are generally descriptive of actual use.
Now, is that a bad thing? There's a woman named Catherine Barber here in Canada
who goes on CBC Radio. She calls herself "the word lady". That may not sound
all that scholarly but she is really one of the most respected lexicographers
and grammarians in the world. Her masterpiece is probably putting out the first
really good dictionary of Canadian English. Anyway, people are always phoning
in and saying things like "absolutely everyone uses that word incorrectly". And
she always answers the same way, "If everyone but you uses the word that way,
then you're the one who doesn't use it correctly."
> The other people who have to make the term precise (or at least had to
> - many have abandonded it) are those collecting and studying folk
> music, since they'll be called on to say exactly what it is they're
> studying.
Well, now, why don't they just ask the people who make the music or the folks in
the audience what they call it? Besides, music is for folks to play and sing
and listen to, not to study and collect and stick in a glass box like some old
fossil.
> Labels are useful to participants in the music for a different purpose:
> they're
> used to say what some bit of music sounds like.
Or you could just play a bit of it.
> Categories for this
> purpose aren't firm, they aren't properly historical, they aren't
> exclusive, and they aren't absolute, but they are useful to a lot of
> people, which is how whoever came up with a term can lose control over
> it over time.
Now, you can't expect to control something as natural and free flowing as a
language. The same thing goes for a culture or a style of music. The minute
you start trying to control it, that's when you really end up losing it. Just
because you make up a new word, you shouldn't feel like things are going out of
control when that word gets used in new ways by other people.
> Nevertheless, it might not be a bad idea for us to remember the
> next time this conversation comes by for us to remember with some
> sympathy the less fortunate: the scholars and collectors, who keep
> losing their words.
Now, wouldn't the way the words and labels shift and evolve over time all be
part of this important thing they're all studying so seriously? Catherine
Barber just loves to track these things down when she works on the origin of a
word. But then, she truly loves her subject.
I don't mean to sound nasty and I never have liked this argument. And I admit
it, I do go at this whole thing from the point of view of the musician who's
inside "the process" if that's what you want to call learning and making up and
singing and playing songs.. I can't help that. I've been a musician since I was
6 and I was brought up by two musicians, so I don't know any other way to look
at it.
And I don't mean to look down on the scholars and collectors, either. Without
them a lot of good songs would have been lost or forgotten. And a lot of them
are very good musicians, too. Most of them have a pretty good sense of humour
about this whole thing. Not all of them, though.
All I'm saying is that it's performing the music that matters both for the
musician and for the audience. I think it's a good idea to try to appreciate as
many kinds of music as you can get your taste around. Labels and categories get
on my nerves because just as soon as you categorize something you have to decide
what the category excludes. I don't like excluding things.
So, I still say you can't define folk music. That's my story and I'm sticking
to it.
That's my two bytes' worth. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. But anyone
who disagrees with me should feel free to jump right in. I'm going to go play
some folk music.
David Wald
<david....@sympatico.ca> writes:
>That's my two bytes' worth. I'm not going to talk about it anymore.
>But anyone who disagrees with me should feel free to jump right
>in.
Can I jump back in even if I agree with you (even though you seem to
have misinterpreted me)?
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I wasn't intending to argue with much of
what you just said. I was just saying that: 1) the term has different
meanings to different people; 2) the audience, at least, finds labels
useful in talking to each other, and that's where most of the shift in
meaning has come from; and 3) it's worth remembering that, as you
said, what the collectors do and have done is valuable, and they're
often part of the conversation.
>I'm going to go play some folk music.
Been playing; I'm going to go dance to it now.
Gerry Myerson
Anderson) wrote:
> Hey, here's a thought. Some people believe a song is only a folk song
> where there is no identifiable author - it must have arisen
> spontaneously from the primordial subconscious ooze. With modern
> record-keeping and the financial incentive for claiming intellectual
> property rights, will there ever be another folk song?
I think there are more songs without identifiable authors now than
ever. Things get whipped around the internet with all identifications
of authors removed all the time, they get fok-processed by people who
don't understand the intricacies of cut-and-paste - not to mention the
stuff that comes up, anonymously, from the schoolyards & summer camps.
I don't know if it's folk music, but I'm sure there's a lot of it
that has escaped author-identification.
Gerry Myerson (ge...@mpce.mq.edu.au)
Jack Dingler
I thought had to do something with singing songs that pertain to people,
and generally most people could sing.
I sure don't consider Jim Croce a purist. But some of his stuff, looks
like folk from my position of ignorance.... I'm wondering now, how many
years or songs you have to dedicate to the tradition to become a folk
singer. If you start late in life, is it possible that you can't get
enough time in to be a folk singer? Or if you get to be popular, do you
cease to be a folk singer?
Some of Jim Croce's songs about people and their professions...
Roller Derby Queen
Speedball Tucker
Big Wheel
The Migrant Worker (Borrowed, in the folk tradition)
Rapid Roy (The Stock Car Boy)
Workin' At The Car Wash Blues
Songs about prison and /or lessons learned...
Age
Cigarettes, Whiskey and Wild, Wild Women (With deference to Hank
Williams)
Cottonmouth River
Five Short Minutes
Hard Time Losin' Man
Next Time, This Time
Stone Walls
The Hard Way Everytime
If you really want to worry over the racist aspect of his songs, check
out...
Shopping For Clothes
Seems to me, he was writing about people and life. Perhaps Folk Music is
about something else...
Jack Dingler
P.S. Why did reduce Ball of Kerrymuir to lightweight 'R' version?
John R Barlow
Strange??
I understand FOLK as any song which relates to you, you origins, your race
or yor life. Regardless of colour, creed or beliefs??????
So Country, Negro Spirituals, Blues and Jazz all qualify!!!
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3B54EFFE...@texas.net...
Kevin Blair
John R Barlow <johnr...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7467.23991$B5.22...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
>
> Strange??
>
> I understand FOLK as any song which relates to you, you origins, your race
> or yor life. Regardless of colour, creed or beliefs??????
>
> So Country, Negro Spirituals, Blues and Jazz all qualify!!!
And don't forget punk. Punk rock definitely qualifies as folk music, under
this definition. And I agree that it is the right way to define folk.
gozy
"Kevin Blair" <kmb...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9jatr7$rnb$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> And don't forget punk. Punk rock definitely qualifies as folk music, under
> this definition. And I agree that it is the right way to define folk.
>
>
This contoversy erupts periodicly here. My own feeling is that the only
true current folk music is Rap, and even that has gone corporate.
I personally am drawn to acoustic music. I love the texture of the blend of
the intruments and well applied voices, and that's what brings me to "folk".
I pretty much don't give a damn about the lyrics.
GZ