lucy kaplansky
Kell A. Simon
If you don't know who this lady is, go to your local record store and
order her record called the Tide. It's on Red House records and is
produced by Shawn Colvin. Ms. Colvin also plays and sings a good bit on
it. I saw her at the fast folk cafe in NYC last night and she was
wonderful. Similar to Colvin in some ways but has a very distinctive
style that is her own.
just thought i'd let y'all know...
Also, who is Dar Williams? I keep hearing about her but do not know who
she is...
Thanks.
Mark E Ferguson
> [ ... praise for Lucy Kaplansky ...]
>Also, who is Dar Williams? I keep hearing about her but do not know who
>she is...
>Thanks.
If you like Lucy, you probably have good taste in music, in which case
you're sure to love the music of Dar Williams.
She's a relative newcomer to the "folk" scene, but is rising fast. Her
debut CD, _The Honesty Room_, is one of the best albums of ANY type in
many years. It's just been reissued on the Razor & Tie label and has
wide distribution, so it shouldn't be too hard to find.
We have an Internet list for discussion of Dar's music. To subscribe,
send e-mail to majo...@world.std.com with one of these commands in
the message body:
subscribe dar-list
subscribe dar-list-digest
The digest is generated periodically whenever a sufficient number of
postings has been received -- that's what the second command will
get you. The first command is for the regular list (you get each
posting individually).
There's also a Web page devoted to Dar. The URL is:
http://www.panix.com/~tneff/dar/
Enjoy!
Mark Ferguson
Dar-List Guy
fe...@world.std.com
Keith McNeil
: If you don't know who this lady is, go to your local record store and
: order her record called the Tide. It's on Red House records and is
: produced by Shawn Colvin. Ms. Colvin also plays and sings a good bit on
: it. I saw her at the fast folk cafe in NYC last night and she was
: wonderful. Similar to Colvin in some ways but has a very distinctive
: style that is her own.
: just thought i'd let y'all know...
To help a little further, before anyone goes out to find this,
Lucy has a hint of Nanci Griffith-esque twang which I happen to like, but
friends of mine can't handle. Also, she draws on a large amount of cover
material, but IMO, she has chosen well, doing Richard Thompson's "When I
Get To The Border," Bill Morrissey's "Texas Blues," The Police's (Sting's)
"Secret Journey," and Cliff Eberhardt's "Goodnight," among others,
including a couple of wonderful Robin Batteau tunes. Sean Colvin's
presence is there, but not so you'd notice if you weren't looking for
it, IMO a wise choice. All in all, worth the money if you like the twang =)
-keith
ANG926
recording. Used to hear her a lot on FUV and Vin Scelsa. Familiar? Dar
Williams is new to me but just bought her album. Sounds good but need to
listen again.
Ken Josenhans
> To help a little further, before anyone goes out to find this,
> Lucy has a hint of Nanci Griffith-esque twang which I happen to like, but
> friends of mine can't handle. Also, she draws on a large amount of cover
> material, but IMO, she has chosen well, doing Richard Thompson's "When I
> Get To The Border," Bill Morrissey's "Texas Blues," The Police's (Sting's)
> "Secret Journey," and Cliff Eberhardt's "Goodnight," among others,
> including a couple of wonderful Robin Batteau tunes.
You say this apologetically, but your report on Kaplansky's liberal use
of cover tunes bumps her album up a couple of notches on my buy list.
I'm really bored with the average level of singer-songwriter stuff
I've heard over the last few years -- so much so that I've pretty
much stopped buying any. We're stuck with this 60's-70's attitude
toward "authenticity" or "emotional honesty", where the audience expects
the performer to be displaying his/her own soul.
In this age where nearly everything is recorded, attributed and copyrighted,
the cover version may be as close as we can come to the old folk process,
where a musician serves as a filter -- picking out the very best songs
and passing them along for a new audience.
Shoot, if I hadn't just handed hundreds of dollars to the auto mechanic
I'd run out and buy Kaplansky's album tonight!
-- Ken Josenhans
k...@netsun.cl.msu.edu
Matt Carroll
writes:
I went to The Bottom Line in NYC last week to see Dar Williams and Tom
Rush. I had just bought Lucy's new CD "The Tide" a couple of days
before. I had also seen her on Valentine's Day at a Christine Lavin show
at the Bottom Line - she sang Guinevere with Buskin and Batteau (Batteau
wrote it and it appears on Lucy's CD). Anyway, there in the audience was
Lucy herself. We spoke to her and I was able to tell her how much I
loved her music. She was gracious and lovely, and quite excited that she
was recognized. She is a soulfull singer and I enjoyed our conversation
so much. Dar Williams by the way is also wonderful. There are so many
great artists doing wonderful things right now.
Stephanie
lan...@baker-taylor.e-mail.com
Steve Goldfield
Ken Josenhans <k...@netsun.cl.msu.edu> wrote:
#>I'm really bored with the average level of singer-songwriter stuff
#>I've heard over the last few years -- so much so that I've pretty
#>much stopped buying any. We're stuck with this 60's-70's attitude
#>toward "authenticity" or "emotional honesty", where the audience expects
#>the performer to be displaying his/her own soul.
Ken's comment (not about Lucy Kaplansky by the way) strikes a
chord with me. I generally avoid singer/songwriters I don't
know since I'm so often disappointed. So many seem intent on
baring their souls without providing a more universal reason
to care about what they're saying. As a friend of mine used
to say, you need not only the what but the so what. I have
that reaction to Cheryl Wheeler, for example. She tells us
about her cat, her depression, etc. but makes absolutely no
attempt to make it relevant to her audience. I'm not particularly
interested in being a voyeur on somebody else's intimate emotions
or reactions. My view is that part of the skill of a singer/
songwriter, sadly lacking in most, is the ability to universalize
in a way that reaches out to the audience and includes them.
Last week I saw a s/s open for Garnet Rogers. The contrast (aside
from the fact that she didn't have much of a voice) was incredibly
stark. She was singing about things that seemed either inane (her
insomnia) or with personal referents that didn't
connect with me at all. Garnet, on the other hand, drew us into
his emotions and reactions. His sort of autobiographical song
about two brothers was obviously tied up with his relationship
with Stan but the clear way in which he expressed his feelings
made it accessible and compelling. Save us from the
singer/songwriters who just don't get it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: s...@coe.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
Keith McNeil
: > friends of mine can't handle. Also, she draws on a large amount of cover
: > material, but IMO, she has chosen well, doing Richard Thompson's "When I
: > Get To The Border," Bill Morrissey's "Texas Blues," The Police's
: > (Sting's) "Secret Journey," and Cliff Eberhardt's "Goodnight," among
: > others, : > including a couple of wonderful Robin Batteau tunes.
: You say this apologetically, but your report on Kaplansky's liberal use
: of cover tunes bumps her album up a couple of notches on my buy list.
: I'm really bored with the average level of singer-songwriter stuff
: I've heard over the last few years -- so much so that I've pretty
: much stopped buying any. We're stuck with this 60's-70's attitude
: toward "authenticity" or "emotional honesty", where the audience expects
: the performer to be displaying his/her own soul.
: In this age where nearly everything is recorded, attributed and copyrighted,
: the cover version may be as close as we can come to the old folk process,
: where a musician serves as a filter -- picking out the very best songs
: and passing them along for a new audience.
:
: Shoot, if I hadn't just handed hundreds of dollars to the auto mechanic
: I'd run out and buy Kaplansky's album tonight!
: -- Ken Josenhans
: k...@netsun.cl.msu.edu
Ken,
"Apologetic" tone aside, my intent was only to let would-be
purchasers, particularly people like myself who are fairly new to folk
music and would not be familiar with what are otherwise well-known
titles, know that many of the songs were in fact written by others, which
is not apparent from simply viewing the outside of the CD. I did not
mean to imply any judgement of the value of covers. Heck, one of the
reasons I bought the CD, after seeing her perform live, was to hear the
cover versions of "Secret Journey" and "Goodnight," which she did not
play on stage. But Kaplansky does perform some excellent songs, co-written
by she and her husband, like "the Tide, or "Scorpion," which are very
distictive and, yes, perhaps display her soul. Nothing wrong with that,
IMO. I wrote what I did because it would be easy to buy her CD expecting
apples and getting oranges - it would have been the case for me had I not
seen her perform (having heard her songs on the radio). That aside, I have
heard many very impressive singer/songwriters in the last eight months
(that's how new I am to folk), and am not sure I would want a return to
the "old folk process." Musician as "filter" may be overlooked - I would
also like to see the "very best" songs, or any songs that are meningful
to a particular performer, passed along and re-interpreted - but those
who can add original material should do so, even at the risk of it not
being up to whatever standards you, or I, may be judging by. Artists
like Shawn Colvin have successfully, IMO, done both. A new thread, perhaps?
Respectfully,
Keith
Robert Thurlow
>In this age where nearly everything is recorded, attributed and copyrighted,
>the cover version may be as close as we can come to the old folk process,
>where a musician serves as a filter -- picking out the very best songs
>and passing them along for a new audience.
I agree; the bias towards only taking writers performing their
own songs seriously has cost us the combinations of the best
performers and the best songs in too many cases. I like it that
a performer can get heard doing his own songs now, but I would
like a little more cross-pollenization. Fortunately, albums like
Nanci Griffith's "Other Voices, Other Rooms" have had an impact,
as well as "Cover Girl" as someone else mentioned.
Rob T
Elisabeth Wright
Robert Thurlow <thu...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <3lv5ls$o...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
>Ken Josenhans <k...@netsun.cl.msu.edu> wrote:
>
>>In this age where nearly everything is recorded, attributed and copyrighted,
>>the cover version may be as close as we can come to the old folk process,
>>where a musician serves as a filter -- picking out the very best songs
>>and passing them along for a new audience.
>
>I agree; the bias towards only taking writers performing their
>own songs seriously has cost us the combinations of the best
>performers and the best songs in too many cases. I like it that
>Nanci Griffith's "Other Voices, Other Rooms" have had an impact,
>as well as "Cover Girl" as someone else mentioned.
Yes, and Maura O'Connell is another excellent example. Her
explanation for not writing has come to simply, "I can't." I don't
think that that takes anything from her musicianship, though, and I think
most would agree. -elis
Tom Huot
: Ken's comment (not about Lucy Kaplansky by the way) strikes a
: chord with me. I generally avoid singer/songwriters I don't
: know since I'm so often disappointed. So many seem intent on
: baring their souls without providing a more universal reason
: to care about what they're saying. As a friend of mine used
: to say, you need not only the what but the so what. I have
: that reaction to Cheryl Wheeler, for example. She tells us
: about her cat, her depression, etc. but makes absolutely no
: attempt to make it relevant to her audience. I'm not particularly
: interested in being a voyeur on somebody else's intimate emotions
: or reactions. [ Rest of text deleted ]
Your comments struck a chord with me also!
Have you ever seen Cheryl perform live? If so, how can you say that?
You certainly have the option of liking her music or not, but I feel
that her music is very thoughtfully written. She just isn't catering
to YOUR tastes. Well, that's too bad. No reason to condemn her for
that. Some of us might not like your favorite artists, either.
If you want to insult any particular music, please use your energy
insulting some of the pop crap that is making it on the airwaves these
days only because the artist has "that look" or happened to become
friends with the right producer. If you can't think of any, just turn
on MTV for a few minutes ...
--
Tom Huot
hu...@cray.com
JLizKenn
hit pretty hard with me, and not just because I like Cheryl Wheeler's
work. As a songwriter myself, I can say that what he wrote did
much worse than strike a chord: he was pressing on a wound.
Many of us who write can easily recognize in others' songs
what Steve was complaining about -- the hard part for me is
recognizing that particular kind of self-referential drivel when it is in
my own work. You can try and write what you know and try for
emotional immediacy in using minute, telling details, but sometimes
you're flying blind, right into the Big So What.
It's like trying to avoid cliches: trite per se and trite
to me aren't necessarily the same thing. I can dread it, but I can't
always avoid it, or know without harsh, blunt feedback whether or not
I've succeeded.
Anyway, I printed out a hard copy of Steve's coldhearted little diatribe
and stashed it in my guitar case.
-- Joan
Ian Anderson
>
> I generally avoid singer/songwriters I don't
> know since I'm so often disappointed. So many seem intent on
> baring their souls without providing a more universal reason
> singer/songwriters who just don't get it.
Agree!
Two extra things to add: a quote from Martin Simpson in Jan '95 Folk
Roots. "The terribly unfortunate thing is that they haven't realised
that all they're doing is setting to very lame musical accompaniment
what they should be telling their analyst".
And to paraphrase something I think it was Utah Phillips said at the
recent Folk Alliance. That the difference between the previous wave
of folk songwriters of the '60s and today's s/s it that the previous
ones knew real folk music. Their writing had roots.
A classic example of great writing by somebody who does know their
roots is the title track of Guy Clark's new album Dublin Blues.
Another good exception to the rule is a CD we received recently by
a woman called Adie Grey (of whom I know nothing), titled Brand New
Old Time Music. Recommended. Now if only all s/s . . .
Ian Anderson
Tom Neff
singer/songwriters don't understand folk music or their folk roots the
way the old timers did. For one thing, you have to suspect that the old
timers in question heard precisely the same canard when they hit the
scene. With proper scholarship, we could probably dig up laments about
how the early 14th century jongleurs of Burgundy were a bunch of
pikers compared to the masters of the late 13th...
The other "catch" is that this chestnut always seems to be uttered as a
cautionary preface to the good news that the current artist under
discussion, whoever he or she may be, is of course a happy
counterexample to the doleful overall trend. "Real old-fashioned folk
music may be a dying art," goes the typical refrain, "but Mary XXXX or
Kevin YYYY or the ZZZZ Brothers still know how to tap those old
wellsprings..."
Well, I feel like calling the bluff here. Either every *specific*
singer/songwriter we might actually name here just *happens* to be a
counterexample to the supposed decline in folk roots and values, in
which case there ain't no such trend, or else there exist real life
examples of singer/songwriters who are
"baring their souls without providing a more universal reason
to care about what they're saying..."
"setting to very lame musical accompaniment what they should be
telling their analyst..."
and who don't "know real folk music," whose writing doesn't "have
roots." No more coyness - name names! Who are these dreadful
artists? I don't believe they exist - prove me wrong.
--
Tom Neff :: tn...@panix.com :: <URL:http://www.panix.com/~tneff/>
Mark Spittal
root
...
: a quote from Martin Simpson in Jan '95 Folk
: Roots. "The terribly unfortunate thing is that they haven't realised
: that all they're doing is setting to very lame musical accompaniment
: what they should be telling their analyst".
: And to paraphrase something I think it was Utah Phillips said at the
: recent Folk Alliance. That the difference between the previous wave
: of folk songwriters of the '60s and today's s/s it that the previous
: ones knew real folk music. Their writing had roots.
Unfortunately you can apply the same criticism to any love
song, or grieving song, or lament or anything at all with
some emotional content. Whether the song in question is
"traditional" or "tradition-rooted" is beside the point. Moreover,
the criticism can be extended to any kind of art at all, without
discrimination.
Writing introspection off as therapy-talk is cute but a little silly.
What is the similarity really?
Moreover the quality of the accompaniment has nothing at all to do with
the "tradition-rootedness" of the singer/songwriter, but reflects
songwriting/performing skills (or lack of them). Those skills must
be judged by other means.
Gavan Tredoux
Cape Town
Kamm2MacD
Martin Simpson seems to be one as well. Is the reason he's played on so
many contemporary Folk Artist's (s.s.) recordings recently ONLY because of
the money? (Couldn't have been that much!!!!!!!)
I feel it unfortunate that we humans have to draw so many lines and
boundaries when it comes to such a changeable, living, breathing thing as
music/art... "what is good, what is not; what is RIGHT and valid, what
stinks and therefore can't POSSIBLY be art...; Cage that pretty little
thing and make it behave, make it act right; If it's not familiar, well
then, it has no soul and it can't be good; If it makes one FEEL something,
gets a little too up close and personal, it's bad, it's boring, it's
material for the analyst, dump it." Typical human behavior, unfortunately.
Music is ALIVE, it is always growing, expanding, metamorphosizing....
evolution. Contemporary folk (s.s.... whatever the hell you want to call
it..) does have it's roots in the traditional... but it is new growth, a
new branch, the next generation. And of course, it won't all stand the
test of time. Not all of the trad. folk stuff was excellent, I'm sure!
Time most certainly dumped alot of it by the wayside, and some critic
probably had the same grievances back then about the 'new' stuff being
written, no?
Or did those songs just materialize from the breath of the perfect Muse?
eleanore....
ghost
>counterexample to the supposed decline in folk roots and values, in
>which case there ain't no such trend, or else there exist real life
>examples of singer/songwriters who are
>
> "baring their souls without providing a more universal reason
> to care about what they're saying..."
>
>
>and who don't "know real folk music," whose writing doesn't "have
>roots." No more coyness - name names! Who are these dreadful
>artists? I don't believe they exist - prove me wrong.
Oh you don't huh? You want names, huh? heh-heh-heh
In a minute, though..I'm still catching up with all the newsgroups after
but a 4-day holiday. And I believe I've just been told I'm expected to do
some work here, too.
The "baring their souls without providing a more universal reason to care.."
are by far the more interesting of the 2 cases, as might be expected. Usually,
their souls are about 1 micron deep & they really & truly don't know the
difference between standing in their condos deciding which curtains to put
up & pick-your-favorite of any more-substantial problems. Neither do
their audiences, which is why they have them. Shallowness loves company
...or isn't it "affirmation" these days? Yup, that's it.
Tom Neff
ghost <j...@endor.harvard.edu> wrote:
>In article <3muiqh$n...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
>>roots." No more coyness - name names! Who are these dreadful
>>artists? I don't believe they exist - prove me wrong.
>
>Oh you don't huh? You want names, huh? heh-heh-heh
>
>In a minute, though..I'm still catching up with all the newsgroups after
>but a 4-day holiday. And I believe I've just been told I'm expected to do
>some work here, too.
Well ghost, it's been about 27 hours, had any ideas? :-)
ghost
->In article <3n0roj$4...@necco.harvard.edu>,
->ghost <j...@endor.harvard.edu> wrote:
->>In article <3muiqh$n...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
->>>... who don't "know real folk music," whose writing doesn't "have
->>>roots." No more coyness - name names! Who are these dreadful
->>>artists? I don't believe they exist - prove me wrong.
->>
->>Oh you don't huh? You want names, huh? heh-heh-heh
->>
->>In a minute, though..I'm still catching up with all the newsgroups after
->>but a 4-day holiday. And I believe I've just been told I'm expected to do
->>some work here, too.
->
->Well ghost, it's been about 27 hours, had any ideas? :-)
Plenty, & that's just from thinking about the local scene alone, but I
*am* still catching up. I read too many newsgroups. Or the
groups I read are getting too large/heavily trafficked. Or both.
Gotta move to where there are more trees, fewer houses
electronocommunicatively. (Gee that's a *long* word. Also not a good
word. My brain is still vacational somewhere, I think I think.)
You don't want just the names without suitably vicious exposition, do you?
What use would just the names without suitably vicious exposition be, I ask you?
Ian Anderson
>
> (SNIP) What you get is performer after performer
> playing nothing but their own material. (leaving nothing for the audience
> to latch on to, no common-ground between performer and audience ... but that
> 's another topic ...) The new method seems to be -- listen to a couple of
> records (digitially-re-mastered of course), buy an expensive guitar, learn
> three chords, and start writing your own material. Oh, yeah, don't forget
> the PR packet -- photos, bios -- the obligatory CD to push every time one
> stands up in front of a group of 3 or more people, the script for between
> song patter, and "if you'd like to be on my mailing-list ..." Folks-music
> is now a career-path. Used to be that people played music for other reasons.
> It's true, believe me, I was there..........
>
> PS, flame-away ... I'm just warming-up......
No flame. I agree. :-)
Ian A.
William Mahoney
>> it..) does have it's roots in the traditional... but it is new growth, a
>> new branch, the next generation. And of course, it won't all stand the
>> test of time. Not all of the trad. folk stuff was excellent, I'm sure
I can`t believe I'm getting involved in this, but ... having "roots in the
traditional" used to mean that one would listen to the music of those
who came before and learn to play much of that music one's self. In this
way one absorbed the tradition. Only after having absorbed the tradition
did one begin to write material with the hopes of fitting into and extending
that tradition. New performers would load up their sets with cover songs
of their influences, and maybe toss in, humbly, a tune or two of their own.
How often do you hear new performers playing cover songs these days? Go
to an open mike, for instance. What you get is performer after performer
Bruce Blood
>
> I can`t believe I'm getting involved in this, but ...
> ....and a bunch of other stuff....
Neither can I but here goes...I too get tired of endless guitar/confessionals, but
you gotta start somewhere. Songs have lives of their own. If you are moved to
write 'em, I don't care how much *homework* you've done, you and they have
a right to be heard. If a song moves someone, the job's been done. Doesn't matter
who or where or what or how.
On the other hand, if you aren't the one who's moved, don't listen. I think the
songwriting urge is rare enough (although sometimes it seems otherwise:-), that it
should be nurtured in whomever takes the plunge.
On the other, other hand, there is undoubedly much craft in learning to write fine
songs consistently. The more one listens, sings, plays, copies, steals all kinds of
music, the better. I'll say this: Songcraft is work, and it should not be taken lightly.
It is also self-editing. In general the bad sinks and the good rises. But sometimes
sorting through the soup can sure be a bore.
My .02.
Gotta go, Bruce. blo...@scl.ci.seattle.wa.us
Gary Martin
In article <3n3rrd$i...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff) writes:
->In article <3n0roj$4...@necco.harvard.edu>,
->ghost <j...@endor.harvard.edu> wrote:
->>In article <3muiqh$n...@panix3.panix.com> tn...@panix.com (Tom Neff)
writes:
->>>... who don't "know real folk music," whose writing doesn't "have
->>>roots." No more coyness - name names! Who are these dreadful
->>>artists? I don't believe they exist - prove me wrong.
There are certainly many singer-songwriters who don't know much
about real folk music. I've met several (and there must be many
others) who think that any slow love song is a ballad. I wouldn't
say that their music is un-rooted - just that the roots are only
about 30 years deep.
I could name plenty of boring singer-songwriters, too, but I
know too many of them for that to be a wise thing to do. And
many of them have a few fine songs amid the mounds of mediocre
stuff they sing. Around a typical s-s campfire at Kerrville,
I'd say that at least 50% of the songs are boring analysis-couch
material. Maybe 10-20% are excellent.
I'd suggest that the problem is not so much with the "me me me
me me me me me I I I" (to quote Patty Larkin), but the fact that
so many such songs seem to say, "What I have to say about what
I'm going through is so important that it doesn't need to adhere
to any metrical pattern or rhyme scheme, doesn't need much of
a melody, doesn't need a discernable rhythm, and doesn't need
to follow any familiar harmonic pattern."
Bob Franke said (in a songwriting workshop at Old Songs a few
years ago) that the only songwriter he knows who can ignore
rhyme and meter and still write a good song is Andrew Calhoun.
(And nearly all of Andrew's songs take meter and rhyme very
seriously.) Yet so many songs I hear these days have so little
structure. It's hard to name examples because I don't find
such songs to be worth remembering. (And the lack of structure
is exactly why I find it impossible to remember them.)
Folk songs are folk songs because they can be learned, remembered
and reproduced quickly and easily (relative to other kinds of music).
(At least approximately.)
I'm sure this has been somewhat disjointed, incoherent, and incomplete,
but I had a sleepless night and I've got to go teach a class now.
--
Gary A. Martin, Assistant Professor of Mathematics, UMass Dartmouth
Mar...@cis.umassd.edu
Tom Neff
neither can Ian. "The decline of folk music" is a myth that lives in
the shadows of generality and scurries from the glare of the specific.
stewart james
acceptace of avant garde ideology among thos who carry the banner of
folk song. Many fine songs have been written, but "Oh, pity me, pity me."
seems to be the norm. Wooly thinking is also rampant; I once heard
in Geelong, Victoria, Australia a very sincere protest song that had
something to do with nuclear powered submarines and sported a chorus
which made reference to running the ship on "the power of the sun." If
you don't understand physics you might want to avoid it.
It seems to me that one goal of anyone who purports to write folk
music would be to write a song that is indistinguishable from the real
thing. This "fool the experts" song represents a sort of certificae
of comptence. One might site in this regard Darcy Farrell (Ian and
Sylvia), Young Child's Complaint (Young Tradition), of When First I
Came Into This Land (Oscar Brand). This latter tune was once pointed
out to me by an Englishman in Australia as a Canadian folk song; it
was based on Pennsylvania Dutch song.
Most song writers, in my estimation, need to relax a bit. It really is
was based on a Pennsylvania Dutch Song.
It really is all right to sing an old song. It really is. Every song
does not have to be a revelation of inner strife or a world changing commentary.
Steve Goldfield
#>This is exactly why I called the bluff. You can't name names, and
#>neither can Ian. "The decline of folk music" is a myth that lives in
#>the shadows of generality and scurries from the glare of the specific.
#>--
#>Tom Neff :: tn...@panix.com :: <URL:http://www.panix.com/~tneff/>
Challenge and bluff don't encourage very good community behavior
on the Internet. I started this particular thread (it's still
got the title I typed in) and named one name. But I don't want
to try to produce a name of bad singer/songwriters for two
reasons. First, I try to forget them as quickly as possible;
that why I made a mistake and went to see Cheryl Wheeler a
second time (the name I mentioned the first time). Second,
there's no point. It's just a list of my particular dislikes.
But the general point is that there seem to be an awful lot of
performers who haven't a clue on how to connect with an audience,
especially a captive audience when that performer is opening for
somebody the audience actually paid to see. And there seem to be
some audiences who seem to go for it; they applaud anybody who
sings and plays a guitar regardless of quality. I don't know if
there are more mediocre performers now than there were 30 years
ago. I just know there are a lot of them now. I've seen a few
great performers as opening acts (Kristina Olsen comes to mind),
and Garnet Rogers mentioned that Mary Chapin-Carpenter once opened
for him. But I've seen a lot more who need to work on their craft
and skills before inflicting themselves on the ticket-paying
public. Let them frequent open mikes and songwriter contests (where
mediocrity is to be expected).
The correct parallel shouldn't be with the past. Rather, the
proportion of bad bluegrass or old-time or celtic acts I've
seen compared to good ones is much, much lower than the same
proportion of bad to good is with singer/songwriters. That's
why I avoid singer/songwriters unless I have some positive
indication that they're good and even then I'm often disappointed.
Steve Goldfield
stewart james <ni...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
#> of comptence. One might site in this regard Darcy Farrell (Ian and
#> Sylvia), Young Child's Complaint (Young Tradition), of When First I
Ian and Sylvia, among others, may have sung Darcy Farrow, but
Steve Gillette wrote it.
ghost
>This is exactly why I called the bluff. You can't name names, and
Oh, crap,
Here's a couple much-touted locals:
Lynn Saner
Maria Sangiolo
both utter dreck, for vastly differing reasons.
Saner is a master of inanity, with tunes to match.
Sangiolo in cluelessly pitiful most of the time.
Too long to go into before lunch. Except to emphasize that I'm talking
bad writing here, not "lacking in prettiness of voice".
Amy Malkhoff & Raymond Gonzales (I don't know that they're local, but they
seen to come around a lot)
Pretty harmonies around totally vapid lyrics & airy-puff melodies, at least
as far as I've heard; yet I've also heard people come up to them after a
show & say "Wow, how profound...that last song, oh, wow", so I guess they've
found their niche.
On the international level:
You *don't* want to talk about Susan Werner again, do you? Not really?
90% of the songs she covers & writes are crap, & she murders the remaining
10% with her non-delivery. In general, the crap gets over-delivery, the
Michael Smith song, Edith Piaf song, even her own occasional OK song,
etc gets non-delivery.
Time for lunch
ghost
>On the other hand, if you aren't the one who's moved, don't listen.
The wholesale promotion of inanity completely displaces the good stuff.
It leaves me nothing new on air, except during specialty pockets in wierd
time-slots, to listen to. Of course, I could always bring
in tapes, & listen to stuff I already like over & over & over again...
You people in parts of the country who's specialty programs are all the
"folk" they get, & who find them over-run by junky songs, are in far worse
shape.
>I think the
>songwriting urge is rare enough (although sometimes it seems otherwise:-),
>that it should be nurtured in whomever takes the plunge.
>On the other, other hand, there is undoubedly much craft in learning to write
>fine >songs consistently. The more one listens, sings, plays, copies, steals
>all kinds of music, the better. I'll say this: Songcraft is work, and it
>should not be taken lightly. It is also self-editing. In general the bad
>sinks and the good rises. But sometimes sorting through the soup can sure be
>a bore.
Back in the great folk lull I'd agree about that sink/swim stuff being true,
but during the current onslaught I'd say full-scale press-agentry & aggressive
self-promotion are floating lots of garbage & weighing down much good.
The perpetrators of dreck are not going to do any self-editing
(I'd never hear the dreck in the 1st place if they did).
Why should I *have* to sort through their soup?
I appreciate the DJs who do it for me, but I also wonder at the strength
of their constitutions.
Mark Spittal
support traditionas music. And if there is a horrible traditional act,
everybody goes, "How authentic!!" "Wonderful". Bluntly, I get tired of
hearing bad traditional stuff, as much as I am tired of hearing bad
songwriters.
Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
their FAT!!!
Why do we listen to music? To have hearts touched, to stimulate our mind?
Or, is that we want to seem cool to others?
Mark
Jon Weisberger
Goldfield) writes:
>
>...[lots of good stuff deleted]
>
>The correct parallel shouldn't be with the past. Rather, the
>proportion of bad bluegrass or old-time or celtic acts I've
>seen compared to good ones is much, much lower than the same
>proportion of bad to good is with singer/songwriters. That's
>why I avoid singer/songwriters unless I have some positive
>indication that they're good and even then I'm often disappointed.
I've had much the same experience, though it's been much more a matter
of radio listening; I don't remember names (not that I'd name them
anyhow) because I rarely listen long enough to hear them. We have what
is reputed to be a very good "folk music" station here, and it's one of
the few that comes in on my car radio, so I check it out pretty
regularly. I just don't have much enthusiasm for this
singer/songwriter *part* of the "folk" spectrum, largely because the
music just don't speak to me. Nothing to do with any "folk music is
dying" notions.
--
Jon Weisberger, Cincinnati (jo...@tso.cin.ix.net or
jo...@ix.netcom.com)
ghost
>Here's a couple much-touted locals:
>
>Lynn Saner
>Maria Sangiolo
>
>both utter dreck, for vastly differing reasons.
>Saner is a master of inanity, with tunes to match.
>Too long to go into before lunch. Except to emphasize that I'm talking
>bad writing here, not "lacking in prettiness of voice".
Now for the exposition part:
Lynn Saner:
Mid-range alto voice. Very smooth, sophisticated, but not unctuous;
jazz-lite "vocalizations" at the ends of some cuts, but not to the point of
complete obnoxiousness.
Has gotten tons of praise, justly deserved, at putting out a very
"profesional-sounding" self-produced album.
The reviews imply "on a very small budget"; from Saner's on-air interview
comments about her own life-style (huge lawn-tent wedding, years in the
planning) & her day-job before she quit it (something at the Harvard Business
School, where even the pencil-sharpeners get fairly high-status pay; else it
would reflect poorly on their high-status bosses. This isn't rumor, its fact,
& a matter of public record. The salaries posted for identical jobs in
different Harvard departments are not identical salaries) I have my doubts as
to the smallness of it, but could be wrong about this.
Still, you can't automatically dismiss the s/ser because they're rich,
or have married rich; Leonard Cohen is the heir to a typewriter fortune.
You have his word that his mother made him suitably neurotic for his job.
Gram Parsons was some kind of millionaire, albeit with a stepfather right
out of extreme Southern Gothic central casting.
Carly Simon (hardly in their class, but no slouch) is the heir of a
publishing dynasty. Maybe if her family had tortured her she'd be in
their class?
Beth MacIntosh, hardly in anybody's class, but the author of at least one
memorable song "Memories of Hickory Lane", can afford (she says in on-air
interviews) to *fly* to all her widely-seperated western shows, but seems to
think her reason, rather than that she *can* afford it, is because
"its lonely to drive long distances alone". She's also a complete &
total air-head on every subject imaginable (on-air interviews). Nevertheless,
there's that one memorable song.
Now to Saner's songs, at least the ones I've heard that I can remember,
not that I necessarily want to:
"An ode to chocolate".
Decent song. I haven't heard it in months, & can't remember it, though.
Liked it OK on hearing it.
I can, however, remember much of Jeannie Stahl's (original or co-written?
I forget) ode to chocolate after not hearing it for about 8 years,
so it would win the cut as "better chocolate ode".
Odes to chocolate do seem to bring out the best in ss-ers.
"One Wore Blue And One Wore Grey"
The trad ballad about 2 brothers or friends who wind up fighting on
diff sides in the Civil War. Nice but not spectular. I wonder about
the reason for its inclusion on the album, but not enough to buy
the album to find out.
"A Child Once"
Now we get to the bad stuff. Really, really bad stuff.
The title cut.
Repeating phrase-packet__you wouldn't call it a chorus__
about some unfortunate somebody:
"He was a child once
I was a child once
You were a child once
We all were children once
He was a child once
A child once"
I may be paraphrasing a little; I wouldn't want to ever have to hear
this song again to find out.
Swoopy circular musical pattern__you wouldn't call it a tune__
that noodles around for while, then comes back to the point where
she can repeat this profound-to-Saner phrase-packet.
And comes back.
And comes back.
And...
Pseudo-jazzy instrumental surroundings, very cleanly executed,
that can't disguise that this song doesn't *have* a tune.
Neither does it have enough going in the way of structure for the
musicians to develop whatever jazz musicians like to have available
to develop, though they try very gamely to disguise that.
Do I care that Lynn Saner, or anyone else, by the time I get through
hearing this dreck, was a child once, or is an adult now, or was ever
born? No. I wonder instead "is there any good music left in the world?"
If Saner were Black, they'd be playing this on the Quiet Storm
(which *has* improved with change of head-DJ/programmer, but not by that much).
Is this the best she has to offer? The Chocolate song & the Civil War song
are better by far. But it *is* the title cut. Someone must
think so.
The album has a picture of Childe Lynn on the *cover*. Not the back, the
cover. I don't *care* what Lynn looks like as a child; I want to know what
Lynn looks like as an adult, so, as an adult, I can avoid any
singing-thing where I see her coming.
If you've already got a huge following (Iris DeMent, 2nd album;
Joan Baez, Baptism album; others, probably) you can put your baby pictures
discretely on them somewhere it you really want to; your huge, somewhat
curious following will probably think it endearing. I find Saner's cover
highly pretentious.
Another song:
"The Standing In My Condo Being Indecisive Blues"
OK, that's not the title; so what.
This one has more of a tune, though I can't remember it.
Standard mellow, not-the-real-blues blues tune, but at least listenable.
However, the lyrics are
"I'm standing in my living room, being indecisive, I don't know what to
do, I don't know what to do."
Ok, those are not the real lyrics, but they're damn close.
I heard a couple verses & choruses of this at work, had to go down the hall
on an errand, was gone about 5 minutes, came back, & she was still singing
the same damn thing. Obviously, not much had happened while I was gone.
Its a *looooong* song. Or maybe it just felt like one.
She explained what the song was about in a 3-song segment she got at a
recent "women songwriters" showcase (so I do now know what she looks like,
sort of):
Its about after waiting for many years for someone to ask her
to move in with them, being asked to move in with them, & being indecisive
about her response
I didn't actually catch this from a casual listen to the song, so I guess its
useful information.
At least, I *think* the song I heard in the concert was the song from the
album. With something this boring its hard to remember enough to be able
to tell.
I don't care about either of the people in this song. I don't have an
opinion other than "why are you boring me with this?". Shouldn't a song
like this do *something* to you emotionally, especially a blues song?
I don't have any empathy for either of the characters, or much patience
either.
Joni Mitchell, on the other hand, can write songs about the kind of people
I actively despise, herself being one of the people, & have me completely
sympathetic by a few lines in. Brilliant lyrics, amazing, complicated but
completely memorable tunes.
You'd wish some of these new singer/songwriters would have *some* models.
I'd be curious to know what they listen to when they're not
singer/songwriting. But not that curious.
There are other songs on Saner's album, but I can't remember anything about
them except "more jazz-lite, no tunes to speak of on many or most of them, more
self-indulgence". Just as well.
Saner, I hope obviously, has been chosen as the example of
"songs you should be singing to your analyst, backed by lame music",
except that this stuff is also so lame lyrically that, so as not to antagonize
her analyst, she should be singing it to her wallpaper. Not to me.
This stuff is not something that would give you hives or a stomach ache
on 1st hearing, though it might if someone threatened to play it after you
already got familiar with it, to the extent that this is possible for
something so unmemorable; its most annoying for all the space it takes up that
could be used to play something brilliant.
Saner has terrific poise, stage presence, etc, important to know for those
who find that sort of thing important; everything but terrific
material.
Jon Weisberger
Goldfield) writes:
>Ian and Sylvia, among others, may have sung Darcy Farrow, but
>Steve Gillette wrote it.
Yup. And the Bluegrass Cardinals sang it <g>.
John Lupton
>From: jo...@ix.netcom.com (Jon Weisberger)
>Subject: Re: Darcy Farrow (was Singer/Songwr. Pet Peeve)
>Date: 21 Apr 1995 02:20:38 GMT
>In <3n6h95$a...@agate.berkeley.edu> s...@hera.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Steve
>Goldfield) writes:
>>Ian and Sylvia, among others, may have sung Darcy Farrow, but
>>Steve Gillette wrote it.
>Yup. And the Bluegrass Cardinals sang it <g>.
Not to mention John Denver, Steve Gillette hisownself, and...why, looka
here...right h'yar (Texas translation: "rat cheer") on my brand new "Rice
Brothers 2", thar 'tis..."Darcy Farrow".
<g>
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
"Rural Free Delivery", WVUD-FM 91.3, Newark, Delaware
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/rfd.html
Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/bfotm.html
Jon Weisberger
Lupton) writes:
>In article <3n74pm$s...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> jo...@ix.netcom.com (Jon
>Weisberger) writes:
>
>>In <3n6h95$a...@agate.berkeley.edu> s...@hera.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Steve
>>Goldfield) writes:
>
>>>Ian and Sylvia, among others, may have sung Darcy Farrow, but
>>>Steve Gillette wrote it.
>
>>Yup. And the Bluegrass Cardinals sang it <g>.
>
>Not to mention John Denver, Steve Gillette hisownself, and...why,
>looka here...right h'yar (Texas translation: "rat cheer") on my brand
>new "Rice Brothers 2", thar 'tis..."Darcy Farrow".
>
><g>
Oh, lots of folks have *done* it - there's a version on the recent
Chesapeake album - but the Cardinals (Randy Graham, Don and David
Parmley were the trio, on the Rounder album) - *sang* it <g>.
Robert Franke
artistic assassination of Lynn Saner: you can look for it if you like.
In JMF's defense, he was dared to write such a piece, and he did
qualify some sections of it as referring to his own taste. That's all
the defense he gets from me. I find it both interesting and abhorrent
that, with all the mediocrity out there, he picks local developing
artists and not established industry people for his "analysis". I have
to go to a recording session at the moment (time flies when you're
pissed off), but for the moment, and for the record, let me say that I
have had the honor to have included Lynn Saner in one of my songwriting
classes, and she's one of the most brilliant artists I've ever worked
with. I hate mediocre songwriting, and Lynn is nowhere near mediocre.
There are lots of other issues here, and I'll get back to some of them.
--
Bob Franke Telephone Pole Music
rfr...@ix.netcom.com 106 Winona Street
508/535-3331 voice/fax Peabody, MA 01960
"The road of Excess leads to the palace of Wisdom."--Wm. Blake
Bev Herzog
mspi...@cyberspace.com (Mark Spittal) writes:
> Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
> musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
> physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
> and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
> everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
> their FAT!!!
To name a few....
Burl Ives, to name a legend, was not terribly slender but was well-liked
and respected. Judy Small sings a least one song referring to her
non-anorexic physique. I could name others (but won't since standard of
beauty are not objective) who don't have the bodies or faces of models, but
who've have done well. And Lee Hayes sang in the Weavers after he was
confined to a wheel chair.
Bev
Bev Herzog
current tour. He opened with "The House You Live In". After the song, he
said that during the lines:
The house you live in will never fall down if you pity the stranger who
stands at your gate
and
......the stranger who stands to your door
he flashed on the bombing in OK, and he realized that those words are no
longer true. He said the song had lost its meaning for him and him may
never sing it again.
Bev
John Lupton
>From: jo...@ix.netcom.com (Jon Weisberger)
>Subject: Re: Darcy Farrow (was Singer/Songwr. Pet Peeve)
Yeah, I guess lots 'o folks have done it...and I've heard more than a few
who've just about done it in. Amazing how some people can take a perfectly
lovely ballad and beat it within an inch of its life. You're right though,
Jon, the Cardinals do a superior rendition. But one expects that from them,
now, doesn't one?
<g+>
Julie Schiro
While I am not familiar with any of the musicians that have been
discussed in this thread, except Cheryl Wheeler-who I like based on the
one cd I have, it seems to me that a few points in this debate have been
overlooked.
That is, obviously of all the people who perform and whose music is on
the radio, some people will like and others will not. This is not
completely based on their talent as musicians, quality of vocals,
profundity of their lyrics, or physical appearance. Our reaction to
music either live or broadcast is often an emotional/psychological one.
That is it is not necessarily based on any of the concrete factors by
which one can analyze music, as listed above, though of course it can be.
What I may like others may scorn and vice versa. Some one may be a
musician's musician and be appreciated by fellow performers due to their
skill on a certain instrument but may leave me cold or seem like a bore,
while a less talented musician by have a certain spark that makes their
music more appealing. Lyrics can touch a deep emotional chord or shared
experience in one person but not another. Sometimes we react to music
not even in terms of the specific words or tunes but as an overall sense,
or perhaps as contributing to a good time in a social setting, or a beat
to dance to.
Whatever the case our response to music is a highly individual and
unpredictable matter. Even an individual's moods may affect which of
their choosen music appeals on one day and not on another.
To make a long story short here, I think this whole thread and debate is
rather pointless. Obviously we do not all like the same music and if you
do not like a person then avoid seeing or hearing them as much as you
can. But please lets have a little tolerance for our differences in
taste. If a particular performed makes some people happy while you
dislike them, so be it, but do not begrudge others their enjoyment.
ghost
>Forgive me for not wanting to reprint J...@endor.harvard.edu's attempted
>artistic assassination of Lynn Saner: you can look for it if you like.
>In JMF's defense, he was dared to write such a piece, and he did
>qualify some sections of it as referring to his own taste. That's all
>the defense he gets from me. I find it both interesting and abhorrent
>that, with all the mediocrity out there, he picks local developing
>artists and not established industry people for his "analysis". I have
>to go to a recording session at the moment (time flies when you're
>pissed off), but for the moment, and for the record, let me say that I
>have had the honor to have included Lynn Saner in one of my songwriting
>classes, and she's one of the most brilliant artists I've ever worked
>with. I hate mediocre songwriting, and Lynn is nowhere near mediocre.
>There are lots of other issues here, and I'll get back to some of them.
I don't *listen* to enough mainstream/established people whom I find
boring & irrelevant as they tend to appear on stations that play music I
don't like. "Local developing artists" that I don't like get hyped to death
on stations that play them intersconced with music I *do* like; it makes
it hard to avoid them.
I find Saner *very* boring, for the reasons I listed.
She also has some very rudimentary skills at composition & lyric writing
that *aren't* being developed as far as I can tell; perhaps if she had
less stage presence, voice & general self-assurance she'd have to have
better songs?
I think she has everyone bowled over by the "force of personality" thing;
her *better* material (except for the chocolate song, which I like)
is material that is rendered vaguely tolerable only for as long as she's
on stage. It does not hold up on record.
Knock some more-famous people (besides Werner, who goes without saying)?
Prism, Patty Larkin & (circa 1972-6)
People should look up recordings, if there were any, by an entity known
as "Patty Larkin & Prism", which Patty (it *is* the same Patty, believe it
or not) has pretty-much disowned. Larkin was *at least* as horrible back
then as Saner is now, for much the same reasons musically (except that,
it being the early 70s, her lyrics went on-&-on about mystic crystal
revelations & such rather than we-think-we're-sophisticated relationships.
I was almost unwilling to listen to anything by Larkin after being
subjected to this stuff as opening act time & again way back when;
Then she came out with
"Back In Your Arms"
& progressed to such things as
"It Was Your Dream (but its my life now)", probably her best song yet
I think her latest stuff is a misguided attempt to be trendy & hip;
if Richard Thompson can't get richer & more famous being Richard Thompson,
why should a pale stylistic-imitation of his throwaway filler succeed?
It could happen, though.
And Larkin can still write stuff like
"Who Holds Your Hand (when you're alone)"
& the title cut of
"Angels Running",
which I *think* I like a lot, but its so depressing that
it never gets enough airplay for me to tell
So if Larkin, who had pretty much the same incapacitating attributes as
Saner when she started out, can improve so much, is there hope for Saner?
I think all this discussion does is highlight the pitfalls of writing
groups.
To bad to have Mr. Franke mad at me, as I like his writing very much
(even if Jesus does tend to show up in the final verses & save everybody).
But why do people think this kind of thing can be taught in the 1st place??
It can be polished, & in some cases obviously polished to show off
displeasing (to me) grains, but taught?
ghost
>Forgive me for not wanting to reprint J...@endor.harvard.edu's attempted
>artistic assassination of Lynn Saner: you can look for it if you like.
>In JMF's defense, he was dared to write such a piece, and he did
>qualify some sections of it as referring to his own taste. That's all
>the defense he gets from me. I find it both interesting and abhorrent
>that, with all the mediocrity out there, he picks local developing
>artists and not established industry people for his "analysis". I have
Steve Goldfield's original article highlighted as boring & irrelevant
*Cheryl Wheeler*, whom I say is one of the best there is. One of the
all-time best.
Aside from wanting to lock Goldfield in a room with her 1st couple albums
til he cries uncle
(you don't like "Arrow"?!
you don't like "They seem to know each other very well"?!
you don't like "Summerfly"?!
you don't like "Half a Book"?!)
& guessing it may have been her comedic stage act & occasional piece of
comic songwriting that irritated Goldfield rather than those songs,
I have to default to "no acounting for taste".
It also sounded like Goldfield's original article knocked Carla Sciacky
(spelling), though he didn't name her, as it referred to a song about
insomnia. Sciacky is also one of my all-time favorites. I don't think
I've ever heard her sing a weak song in public.
I think one pertinent question to ask is
"what makes a song worthwhile to you"?
My answer, aside from "indelible melody", &
"they sound like they really feel/believe in it"
would have something to do intangibles like
"the kind of lyrics I would never have thought of in a million years,
but understand immediately".
At this point I think its time to take the ever-available
"lunch deferrment" again.
More later?
Mary Loveless
Now here's a topic that grabs my interest. I weigh in at 300 lbs, and
love challenging the idea that fat people can't......(there are a lot of
stupid ideas about what fat people can't do). There are a lot of fat
performers out here, folks, and we're good. Odetta is a sizable woman,
and remember Mama Cass? I don't know what Grit Lafkin, the Canadian,
looks like, but his song, "Let My Stomach be Soft and Round" gives me a
clue. The Righteous Mothers come in all sizes and I love to watch them
sing. They choreograph each song and it's a treat to see, especially when
they do "60,000 Naked Hoosiers" (you should see the signer cope with
"pasties and g-strings" on that one!). I could keep listing people, but I
want to get on to my point here.
I figure anyone who can't handle the visual challenge is the loser. I
have a copy of the "Too Fat Polka" with cover illustration of a sour
looking wizened up man cringing away from a gorgeous, dynamic big woman
dancing her heart out. I know who **I** find more appealing. So, to
(among many others) that man who shall remain nameless who walks out of
the room every time I get up to sing, "Stick around. You'll hear some good
music and maybe learn that there's more to folk music than Fair and Tender
Maidens. You don't have to find me desirable to like my music (in fact
I'd just as soon you ***don't**** find me desirable, but that's another
issue). And you may learn something good about yourself in learning to
accept what *I* have to offer!"
Mary Loveless
Singer-Songwriter
--
Mary Loveless
Secretary Senior
Community Health Care Systems
School of Nursing SM-24
Stella Washburn
>
> Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
> musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
> physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
> and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
> everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
> their FAT!!!
Surely in America you don't have a problem locating overweight
folkies? ;-)
(Let's-insult-the-whole-newsgroup-not-just-the-singer-songwriters-dept.)
Joseph C Fineman
> Of course, I could always bring
>in tapes, & listen to stuff I already like over & over & over again...
Or sing it yourself. There are some songs I like that I never expect
to hear any other way.
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Mark Spittal
: In message 20 Apr 1995 18:55:31 -0700,
: mspi...@cyberspace.com (Mark Spittal) writes:
: > Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
: > musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
: > physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
: > and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
: > everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
: > their FAT!!!
: To name a few....
: Burl Ives, to name a legend, was not terribly slender but was well-liked
: and respected. Judy Small sings a least one song referring to her
: non-anorexic physique. I could name others (but won't since standard of
: beauty are not objective) who don't have the bodies or faces of models, but
: who've have done well. And Lee Hayes sang in the Weavers after he was
: confined to a wheel chair.
: Bev
Okay, there are a few. A few. The exceptions to the rule. Because we
do live in a judgemental and fatophobic society. And if we believe what
the goverment tells us (ok, a very big leap of faith!), there is a very
signifigant percentage of overweight people, and I rarely see them
represented on any artistic stage. And weight has nothing to do with
talent and ability, just with percieved attractiveness.
Mark
JLizKenn
singer-songwriters per se, just the lame ones. And the
folk-friendly open-mikes will always get more than their share
of beginners and people who, even if they've been doing this
for awhile, just don't get it about getting the audience
on their side. That's because the folk-friendly venues are
so warm and welcoming and inclusive, (especially compared with
bars, brutally indifferent to the needs of songwriters) and such a
nurturing environment for anyone who's nervous but has the potential
to grow. And for anyone else who wants to hijack the stage for
awhile, but then life is full of cruel tradeoffs. Anyway, I wouldn't
change a thing about such venues' formats, it just makes it all
the more exciting when you do hear an act there with something
truly special to contribute. Twenty percent isn't so bad....
Two cents about the analysis couch stuff: this territory,
illuminating interior landscapes (please, no proctologist jokes), is so
hard
to connect with the audience on, but so marvelous to succeed
with, that sometimes you just have to take the chance. Whether the
applause is tepid or enthusiastic is very often enough to tell the
artist how he/she is doing. Maybe this would be a good thread to
brainstorm about how to get the right feedback to the right people
without discouraging frail courage from being creative.
JLizKenn
They sing of Darcy Farrow at the ciffeehouse in Frederick
They sing of Darcy Farrow at the Potter's House too
If you sing of Darcy Farrow at the Reston-Herndon Folk Club
You'd better hide the knives and forks, cause I'll kill you
Sorry.
ghost
>I think one pertinent question to ask is
>"what makes a song worthwhile to you"?
>
>My answer, aside from "indelible melody", &
>"they sound like they really feel/believe in it"
>would have something to do intangibles like
>"the kind of lyrics I would never have thought of in a million years,
>but understand immediately".
>
more on the fine art of songwriting:
As Gary Martin already said here, & so have I other times, other places
(paraphrased)
"its got to have a tune".
This doesn't mean its got to have a particularly stirring or haunting
&/or lyrical tune, though I'd like it to, but it can't just meander
all over the place haphazardly. It ought to be memorable, meaning
"you can remember it after the song is finished". I`ve heard many a
non-tune that I can't remember *while its playing*, & I'm a
pretty quick study on tunes.
Memorable doesn't mean easily repeatable, either;
take X's "The Date". Not an easy tune, but a tune nonetheless.
(her name isn't "X", but I'm completely blocking on what her name is.
Barbara something? Yes, its another local, & therefore a cheap shot
to comment on internationally, but the push is on, folks, the push is
on. You'll hear her soon enough.)
Good song, too.
However: she's written "The Date", she's written a good angry folk-rock song
about a childhood tomboy/ringleader friend who's now an intimidated,
subservient, & very, very terrified wife, and she's written the excreble
"Mary Tyler Moore" song. Not the show's theme, though that's in there, but a
song about her hero, Mary. I'm not saying this is a badly written song, & its
going to be her claim to pop stardom, but I *hate* it. Hated the show, too.
X is a good case of how an incipiently decent s/ser can go bad; everything
I've heard since she's been adopted by the folk media have been throwaway songs
about people who have casual, vacation&sex-based relationships because they're
wary of deeper ties. I'm not saying this isn't a valid theme in the right
hands, & it may well reflect where X is at right now (though it hardly
sounds like the same personality as the lady in "The Date"), but what she's
produced on the subject puts her squarely in there with
"writers of trite junk", unfortunately.
The question then becomes "how many insigificant & worse songs will you put
up with while waiting for the writer to write another decent one"?
Will they ever? Not if the crap gets encouraged.
Ian Anderson
>during the current onslaught I'd say full-scale press-agentry & aggressive
> self-promotion are floating lots of garbage & weighing down much good.
>
> The perpetrators of dreck are not going to do any self-editing
> I appreciate the DJs who do it for me, but I also wonder at the strength
> of their constitutions.
Tough. Very tough. Speaking as editor of a magazine who sometimes
gets crushed under the avalanche of vanity-published CDs by U.S.
singer/songwriters, all accompanied by 30-page press packs, and all
bearing the catalogue suffix 001 (wonder why there's never an 002...),
I can tell you the fuse gets shorter day by day.
Mind you, when you get the 1 in 50 that's actually worth a second
listen, your guard accidentally slips for a moment.
Ian Anderson (Folk Roots)
P.S. Ask Paul Hartman and Mark Moss about this!
Zeke T.Z. Hoskin
(1) maybe people who get seriously into folk music can't afford to
eat enough to be fat?
(2) Damn few one-handed guitar players out there...
(3) ever tried to carry a harp on crutches?
Zeke Hoskin, singer/songwriter/harper who never found that being handicapped
was any big deal among folkies, except when the soccer game starts...
Reply to tzh...@yvr.cyberstore.ca
Speech is midway between thought and action,
and often substitutes for both.
Robert Franke
>And Larkin can still write stuff like
>"Who Holds Your Hand (when you're alone)"
>& the title cut of
>"Angels Running",
>which I *think* I like a lot, but its so depressing that
>it never gets enough airplay for me to tell
>So if Larkin, who had pretty much the same incapacitating attributes as
>Saner when she started out, can improve so much, is there hope for Saner?
>I think all this discussion does is highlight the pitfalls of writing
>groups.
This discussion hasn't touched on writing groups at all. I'll be happy to
touch on what goes on in mine, but first I have to say that a great voice, a
charismatic stage presence, and a fluid and inventive guitar technique (all
present in both Patty and Lynn) don't strike me as incapacitating attributes.
Can they mask bad songwriting? Sure. They can make it hard to hear good
songwriting as well, if you've got your mind on other things, or if you're
stressed out.
Both Patty and Lynn have songs of greater or lesser depth, and that's
probably because each of them writes for performance, which dictates a
necessity for a little breathing space between the hard-hitting songs. I've
known Patty's work for many years, and she has never struck me as being
mediocre. Her entertaining songs are entertaining, and her heart songs come
from the heart. If she had *never* written a bad or mediocre song, then she
would not human like the rest of us, but I'm willing to forgive any few sins
of her youth if she's willing to forgive those of mine. I believe that Lynn
is in the same league, and that she's way beyond the level of competence that
(ghost) allows her. One needs both brains and guts to do this stuff on the
level of art that has healing power: Lynn has both, and has done the job more
than once that I have witnessed, which is not to say that she won't get
better.
I'm a bit disappointed by (ghost)'s descending to the ill-conceived
invitation to flame contemporary songwriters, because I do think that such
flames distract from real issues that have been brought up by this
discussion, on some of which (ghost) and I might agree. Some are
generational: older people have some different issues from people in their
twenties or teens as well as some of the same issues. What hits the mark with
one age group will sometimes bore another. I don't believe that songwriters
of the current generation are necessarily less talented that those of
previous generations: there are bad songwriters in every generation, and we
tend to remember the good ones. To me, that's one mark and one genius of folk
music: songwriting is 90% editing, and audiences tend to forget the bad, and
rework and remember the good. The older songs that audiences remember set
a standard that songwriters ignore at their peril. There are plenty of
contemporary songwriters who do just that, but there are those that don't,
too. I haven't spent a lot of time with Susan Werner's work, but offhand she
strikes me as someone who has done her homework. I was a bit put off by her
baby boomer bashing song, but on the other hand, boomers such as she
describes in it deserve such bashing. For my money, mine was the first
generation to utter the idiot slogan "never trust anybody over 30" and then
upon reaching 30, proceed to live out the rest of its life doing its best
politically to justify that slogan. Perhaps sometime someone will issue the
collected kinescopes of the old "Hootenanny!" show of the early '60s, and we
can all refresh our memories of some of the singer-songwriters of the time we
would much rather forget.
I think that the industry's current interest in "acoustic
singer-songwriters" (as opposed to the hopelessly out-of-it and aging
"folksingers" like myself) does tend to draw more chaff than wheat into the
mill: now that fame is part of the equation for some, there will be more
folks in the market who care more about getting famous than about getting
good. But the number of true artists is no smaller now than it ever was. Song
is a very powerful, very portable medium that deserves better than radio
usually gives it: commercial radio, because it wants the ads to be the most
memorable content, and even public radio at this point, because it's scared
of Newt and his ilk. Major labels tend to look for visuals and demographics,
and are more likely to invest $100,000 or so at a shot into songs that are a
mile wide and an inch deep. These pressures affect even good writers and
artists, and sometimes diminish their work. I trust the selection process of
folk music much more than that of the industry. As more monetary investment
comes in, it's harder to hear the voice of the audience through the paid
hype.
(ghost) and I are both disappointed that we don't get to hear enough of
the best of songwriters we both know are good, and we both happen to live in
a relatively good area for folk radio. I think (ghost)'s general criteria for
good songs may be pretty sensible as well. I would add (as (ghost) seems to
imply) that there is such a thing as truth, as relative as it may seem at
times, and that songwriters have some kind of obligation to express it as
clearly as they can.
Here are a few things I do in my songwriting groups, which affirm artists
of such wildly different styles and temperaments as to permanently disabuse
any witness of any "homogenizing" quality. Firstly, I get songwriters into
the same room and help teach them to deal with another. Art on the one hand,
and madness and addiction on the other, do tend to straddle a fine line (see
"Witness to the Fire: Creativity and the Veil of Addiction" by Linda Schierse
Leonard, published by Shambhala Press). Like those who put 3 people each of
whom thought they were Jesus in the same living situation (see "The Three
Christs of Ypsilanti", author and publisher unknown) I help them to discover
their issues in common, and thus reduce their isolation and tendency toward
delusion (even as I reduce my own). I outline my own answers to the question
of why one writes a song in the first place, when there are so many good ones
around already. I talk a little about various cultural and spiritual
resources that are available to songwriters. Then I ask each student "what
kind of song do you sort of admire, but can't imagine yourself writing?" Then
we work out an individual songwriting assignment to be worked on for the
duration of the class. Because each student picks a real hump to get over,
everybody is a beginner in a sense; because each picks her or his own
obstacle, sometimes some important growth gets done. In any case, for the
rest of the class we share the process and the product with an eye to
compassion for the songwriter's audience as well as the songwriter. Some
songs work better than others because the human brain seems to be built in a
certain way; other songs (sometimes the same songs) work because they are
true documents of the human heart. Lots of decisions have to be made, and
lots of editing has to get done. Whatever level people are functioning
at, most of them report that they've learned something, and sometimes
something important to them. I am as surprised as anyone that this
happens, but I believe it does, because I've seen it time and again.
It's a painful process, and it requires more courage than is required
just to talk about songs that others write, although anyone who cares
enough about songwriting to look for the real thing has also to have a
certain kind of courage.
I myself got hooked by the medium, and in the traditional musics
that nourished it and gave it a standard to live up to, just after the
bust of the '60s folk boom. I was too dumb to stop, and by the time I
was old enough to know better I had discovered that good songs had the
power to heal and clarify lives, and to help people celebrate them. I'm
gratified that (ghost) thinks well of my writing in spite of Jesus
popping up in the last line. I've been thinking of a song in which
Jesus shows up in the *first* verse, goes fishing with Greg Brown, mall
shopping with Patty L., has a few beers with Bill Morrissey (and nurses
him through his hangover), organizes a strike with Sy Kahn, thumbs his
nose at a TV evangelist with Bruce Cockburn, and _then_ saves
everybody. I get more realistic as I get older. Then again, I've never
been convinced that Jesus was looking for that kind of attention.
ghost
>>I think one pertinent question to ask is
>>"what makes a song worthwhile to you"?
Do I get to quote from no less than Chris Smither in today's Globe?:
"The things I learned about what makes a good blues song are basically
the same things that make any good song: Does it relate to me, can I
remember it, does it have a good beat, does it move me, both emotionally
and physically?"
The rest of the article is real good too, but I'm not going to type it
in because its late, I'm tired, (& its illegal). Just-the-quotes would
be less than the fair-use quotient, though. Nevermind, look it up.
Sonny Rollins was great, but it wasn't folk music, so why mention it here?
Or maybe it was. Thank you, June Tabor, for getting sick & having to
cancel your tour; you were my 1st choice of musician to hear for tonight,
of course, but I'm glad I got to hear Mr. Rollins instead.
Tomorrow, NEFFA^*. Tonight, SLEEP.
^* acronym for "big festival in a suburban high school". Not a secret
code.
Michael Daly
her...@geoserv.isgs.uiuc.edu says...
>
>I heard Gordon Lightfoot in concert last night, the opening night of his
>current tour. He opened with "The House You Live In".
>never sing it again.
>
Sad news indeed, but he may be premature. It seems that this terrible
crime was not the work of a 'stranger' after all.
As a Gordon Lightfoot fan for over 25 years I would love to see him
in concert, but regrettably he has never made it to this corner of
the planet.
Michael Daly
Auckland, New Zealand
---------------------
Holly Tannen
> In message 20 Apr 1995 18:55:31 -0700,
> mspi...@cyberspace.com (Mark Spittal) writes:
>
> > Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
> > musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
> > physically different.
Well, I'll always remember the early recordings of Grayson and Whitter,
who were known as "the blind fiddler and the deaf guitarist."
Holly Tannen, Mistress of Folklore
And her Entities from the Half-Astral Plane
Smash Hit Song ONLINE ROMANCE now on Dan Quayle Home Page
http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~joslin/quayle.html
Sergio Gelato
Mark Spittal <mspi...@cyberspace.com> wrote:
>Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
>musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
>and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
>everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
>their FAT!!!
Oh, now I understand why Pavarotti is so appalling when he sings popular
songs! And I thought his problem was that he had the wrong accent... (and
the wrong style for that kind of material).
That said, I know of quite a few blind pianists, some of them doubling up
as vocalists. Granted, they aren't physically ugly as long as you don't look
straight into their eyes. And maybe you wouldn't call them "folk"---I don't
really understand that label anyway.
JLizKenn
You Live In," does anyone know, and why he may never
sing it again? Does it have to do with that woman he knew,
connected with John Belushi's overdose? Sorry to be insensitive
but the thread tweaked my morbid curiosity. Don't mean to
start a docudrama on the private life of a terrific songwriter,
but I'm not familiar with the song.
Judy Neuwirth
>To make a long story short here, I think this whole thread and debate is
rather>pointless. Obviously we do not all like the same music and if you
do not like >a person then avoid seeing or hearing them as much as you can.
But please lets >have a little tolerance for our differences in taste. If
a particular >performed makes some people happy while you dislike them, so
be it, but do not>begrudge others their enjoyment. >
the Internet!
Joel Mabus
by the way, look for
alt.folk.singer.song.writer.big.beautiful
Joel Mabus
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"I'll play it first and tell you what it is later."
Miles Davis
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
M.E. Cooper
: While I am not familiar with any of the musicians that have been
: discussed in this thread, except Cheryl Wheeler-who I like based on the
: one cd I have, it seems to me that a few points in this debate have been
: overlooked.
: That is, obviously of all the people who perform and whose music is on
: the radio, some people will like and others will not. This is not
: completely based on their talent as musicians, quality of vocals,
: profundity of their lyrics, or physical appearance. Our reaction to
: music either live or broadcast is often an emotional/psychological one.
: That is it is not necessarily based on any of the concrete factors by
: which one can analyze music, as listed above, though of course it can be.
: What I may like others may scorn and vice versa. Some one may be a
: musician's musician and be appreciated by fellow performers due to their
: skill on a certain instrument but may leave me cold or seem like a bore,
: while a less talented musician by have a certain spark that makes their
: music more appealing. Lyrics can touch a deep emotional chord or shared
: experience in one person but not another. Sometimes we react to music
: not even in terms of the specific words or tunes but as an overall sense,
: or perhaps as contributing to a good time in a social setting, or a beat
: to dance to.
: Whatever the case our response to music is a highly individual and
: unpredictable matter. Even an individual's moods may affect which of
: their choosen music appeals on one day and not on another.
: To make a long story short here, I think this whole thread and debate is
: rather pointless. Obviously we do not all like the same music and if you
: do not like a person then avoid seeing or hearing them as much as you
: can. But please lets have a little tolerance for our differences in
: taste. If a particular performed makes some people happy while you
: dislike them, so be it, but do not begrudge others their enjoyment.
How come, in almost every debate on Usenet, there is someone who takes the
middle-of-the-road position in an effort to shut out any other positions?
Paul Hartman
>j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>
>>during the current onslaught I'd say full-scale press-agentry & aggressive
>> self-promotion are floating lots of garbage & weighing down much good.
>>
>> The perpetrators of dreck are not going to do any self-editing
>
>Tough. Very tough. Speaking as editor of a magazine who sometimes
>gets crushed under the avalanche of vanity-published CDs by U.S.
>singer/songwriters, all accompanied by 30-page press packs, and all
>bearing the catalogue suffix 001 (wonder why there's never an 002...),
>I can tell you the fuse gets shorter day by day.
>
>Mind you, when you get the 1 in 50 that's actually worth a second
>listen, your guard accidentally slips for a moment.
>
>Ian Anderson (Folk Roots)
>
>P.S. Ask Paul Hartman and Mark Moss about this!
More than half (maybe 60-70%?) are singer-songwriter-guitarists.
The 2-pound press kits don't help....
Calling every week to find out when the review will run also doesn't
help...
________________________________________________________________________
Paul Hartman pa...@dirtylinen.com http://www.dirtynelson.com/linen/
Dirty Linen - Folk, electric folk, traditional and world music.
P Stamler
Mingus (who performed in a wheelchair the last few years of his life), and
dozens of big players. Blues? I'd say a goodly percentage of blues singers
are big. Try Big Mama Thornton, Willie Dixon, BB King, Bessie Smith,
Walter Horton, Koko Taylor... Not to mention folk performers like Odetta,
Bessie Jones and Bernice Johnson Reagon.
Notice any common thread among the performers above? They're all
African-American. The cultural ideas of "attractive" in the
African-American community don't at all exclude fat people. And this
enjoyment of large peoples' sexual attractiveness includes acceptance of
heavy performers.
To some extent the traditional folk community mirrors this accepting
attitude. People like Lee Hays, Alan Lomax, Phil Cooper, Dave Van Ronk,
Ginni Clemmens, Art Thieme, and others provide enough exceptions for me to
say that being fat is not really a barrier to most folk performers.
Peace
Paul "Not Too Slim Myself" Stamler
Paul Stamler
e-mail: Psta...@aol.com
Ian Anderson
>
> We're getting between 50 and 100 recordings for review *per week*...
> More than half (maybe 60-70%?) are singer-songwriter-guitarists.
>
> The 2-pound press kits don't help....
>
> Calling every week to find out when the review will run also doesn't
> help...
You tell 'em, Paul!
Want to give us a percentage on how many have any redeeming qualities?
Of our intake I'd say about 10%
Over to you, Mark . . ! ;-)
Ian A.
ghost
>In article <3n73aj$2...@case.cyberspace.com>,
>Mark Spittal <mspi...@cyberspace.com> wrote:
>>Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
>>musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
>>physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
>>and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
>>everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
>>their FAT!!!
>That said, I know of quite a few blind pianists, some of them doubling up
>as vocalists. Granted, they aren't physically ugly as long as you don't look
>straight into their eyes. And maybe you wouldn't call them "folk"---I don't
>really understand that label anyway.
Or you could play guitar instead of piano, but you have to be male to qualify,
& it certainly helps if you're Black.
Terry Gibbs, a blind white woman who had a big hit with "Nobody's Talking"
(I think that's the title) back in the 60s before anyone in the media
realized she was blind, was unable to follow it up probably because, in
addition to being a blind woman, was what is popularly considered a rather
plain-looking woman. Not in any way disfigured, & skinny enough, but no
fashion model either. Being blind, it couldn't have bothered her a heck of
a lot; why did the fans of the record care? Or was it just the industry?
There are very few prominent female ssers *or* rock stars who are over
5'3" in height, few of any height who weigh more than 120 lbs soaking
wet, & even fewer who couldn't be fashion models if they were taller.
There's a certain amount of "little woman with big guitar" syndrome going
on here.
There is no such fashion-model qualification going for the men, though if
they fit they spend more time on-screen in their own rock video than if
they don't. No height requirement either, but the weight requirement,
that famous sser "Meat Loaf" being the exception that proves the rule,
*is* in effect.
You do get a skewed curve toward short male musicians, especially in the
US, because everybody thinks they've got to excel at something to attract
the attention of the women & height qualifications rule all out those
flashy team sports in a land without soccer.
Craig Cockburn
her...@geoserv.isgs.uiuc.edu "Bev Herzog" writes:
> In message 20 Apr 1995 18:55:31 -0700,
> mspi...@cyberspace.com (Mark Spittal) writes:
>
> > Also, I have observed another phenomena. I rarely see popular folk
> > musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
> > physically different. We seem to want our musicians to be good looking
> > and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
> > everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
> > their FAT!!!
>
Blind Bill plays a big part in the Wednesday singaround at The West End
Hotel, Edinburgh. Really nice chap.
--
Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Jon Weisberger
writes:
>Terry Gibbs, a blind white woman who had a big hit with "Nobody's
>Talking" (I think that's the title) back in the 60s before anyone in
>the media realized she was blind, was unable to follow it up probably
>because, in addition to being a blind woman, was what is popularly
>considered a rather plain-looking woman. Not in any way disfigured, &
>skinny enough, but no fashion model either. Being blind, it couldn't
>have bothered her a heck of a lot; why did the fans of the record
>care? Or was it just the industry?
If my memory is correct on the timing of this, Ms. Gibbs had several
hits in the country music field after the 60s; early/mid 70s is my
recollection. The one I remember (because Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver
recorded it) is "Misery River," but there were others as well.
One of the virtues of country music for a long time was that it was an
arena where relatively little attention was paid to the performer's
"sex appeal." That's no longer the case, and hasn't been for some
time, but I think it is still true in bluegrass.
--
Jon Weisberger, Cincinnati (jo...@tso.cin.ix.net or
jo...@ix.netcom.com)
Michael Daly
>
>Exposition, please? What is the background of "The House
>You Live In," does anyone know, and why he may never
>sing it again?
--------------------
This song is on his 1976 album 'Summertime Dream'.
Don't know the background to the song, but I interpreted his reported
comment that he may never sing it again as meaning that he now associated
it with the Oklahoma City bombing.
Each verse ends "And the house you live in will never fall down
If you pity the stranger who stands at yer gate".
As at first it was conjectured that the bombing was the work of a
terrorist immigrant, he might have thought that these words could
no longer apply; i.e. The USA's traditional generosity to immigrants
had been turned against it.
Of course I could be entirely wrong, you'd have to ask the man himself.
- Michael Daly
Auckland, New Zealand
Roger Gawley
On 21 Apr 1995, Mary Loveless wrote:
> Now here's a topic that grabs my interest. I weigh in at 300 lbs, and
> love challenging the idea that fat people can't......(there are a lot of
> stupid ideas about what fat people can't do). There are a lot of fat
> performers out here, folks, and we're good.
There was a man in Liverpool who used to sing, "I'm the man, the very fat
man, that waters the worker's beer", patting his substantial stomach at
appropriate moments. I have always wanted to sing that song; another
couple of years of beer and chocolate and I will have the figure for it.
John Lupton
>From: j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost )
>Subject: Re: Singer/Songwriter Pet Peeve was Re: lucy kaplansky
>Date: 24 Apr 1995 03:21:36 GMT
>Terry Gibbs, a blind white woman who had a big hit with "Nobody's Talking"
>(I think that's the title) back in the 60s before anyone in the media
>realized she was blind, was unable to follow it up probably because, in
>addition to being a blind woman, was what is popularly considered a rather
>plain-looking woman. Not in any way disfigured, & skinny enough, but no
>fashion model either. Being blind, it couldn't have bothered her a heck of
>a lot; why did the fans of the record care? Or was it just the industry?
Without commenting on the merits of the comments posted by ghost, Bob Franke
and others...this is one hornet's nest I'll keep my nose out of, thanks...my
detail-oriented, anal retentive side forces me to correct the above comment
slightly. Terry Gibbs (indeed white and blind) had a country hit back around
'79 or '80 (not the 60s) with a song called, as I recall, "Somebody's
Knockin'". I don't recall her having any significant follow-up singles.
Whether or not this was due to being blind, or "too plain" is, I think, highly
debatable...there have been plenty of "lookers" who were one-hit wonders, too.
********************************************************************************
John Lupton, SAS Comm & Network Svcs, University of Pennsylvania
"Rural Free Delivery", WVUD-FM 91.3, Newark, Delaware
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/rfd.html
Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jlupton/bfotm.html
E M Eades
> > musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
> > physically different.
There are several notable blind blues guitarists. Other than that, playing
music IS somewhat physical, and people with other physical handicaps are
limited by their ability to move. I do know of one trombonist with the
Boston Symphony who has multiple sclerosis, but MS has also destroyed the
career of a guitarist friend of mine who can no longer finger the
instrument. Most musicians need to be able to move and to hear in order to
play.
Ellen Eades (eme...@aol.com)
Bev Herzog
mike...@iconz.co.nz (Michael Daly) writes:
> Don't know the background to the song, but I interpreted his reported
> comment that he may never sing it again as meaning that he now associated
> it with the Oklahoma City bombing.
That was the interpretation my husband and I got when he said it. Whether
he was thinking of "stranger" as non-US citizen (in which case he would
have also been a stranger) or more of the trusting US nature that allows
free access to most public buildings I can't guess. But I hope it's the
latter.
Carl Newman
(with Steve Gillette) of "Darcy Farrow".
Bruce Blood
My point way back when (boy, you take a three-day weekend and things go wild),
was that yes there IS a ton of dreck, but nestled in there somewhere is a gem.
Unfortunately, you've got to dig a bit. Personally, I would be happy to write just
ONE great song; I'm not sure I have yet, and my opus #s are well into 3 digits:-).
Doesn't deter me.
Hey (ghost)! Are you a songwriter yourself? Not flamin', just wonderin'.....'cuz
I think those of us who know the fear of exposing ourselves in public are a little
more careful with the tender feelings of the writer. Which is not to say that the bad
and banal should be encouraged, or that your opinions are invalid. But as I said before,
if you don't like it, turn it off, don't buy it, get up and walk out on it. Believe me, the
message comes through loud and clear.
As far as what makes it to radio (public AND commercial), that's a whole n'other
kettle of fish innards. Don't get me started! You can't just depend on the media
to expose you to the new and the good, although some of it's a big help.
(Note to the zine types on this thread: I'm sure your review job is like going to an
endless open-mic with no song limit! Thanks. PS: What do you like in a tape/CD
package for review?). I still say your best method of voting is in choosing to
patronize or not. Gawd, I'm sounding like an unmitigated free-marketeer!
I was going to add a paragraph or two to the "image" tangent my friend Mark Spittal
ignited, but I think I'll just leave it by saying that we all know that the way we look
has nothing to do the quality of our produce. The only way to subvert this
false relationionship is to truly ignore it, each and every one of us. Or at least try!
Here's to the hearing - not the looking. But it better damn well be good stuff!
Bruce
Kim Dyer
>: > musicians, of whatever stripe, who are physically challenged or
>: > and unchallenging to our visual senses. And, for goodness sakes,
>: > everybody knows that fat people can't play good music, because...well...
>: > their FAT!!!
>: Burl Ives, to name a legend, was not terribly slender but was well-liked
>: and respected. Judy Small sings a least one song referring to her
>: non-anorexic physique. I could name others (but won't since standard of
>: beauty are not objective) who don't have the bodies or faces of models, but
>: who've have done well. And Lee Hayes sang in the Weavers after he was
>: confined to a wheel chair.
>Okay, there are a few. A few. The exceptions to the rule. Because we
>do live in a judgemental and fatophobic society.
But "different" people are just that ... DIFFERENT. They are exceptions
to the rule in life as well as on stage. Assuming the physicalability
(dexterity, strength, etc.) to perform, you will probably findthe
percentage on stage isn't that different from "real life". Thereare a
significant very popular blind performers. Joe Cocker is quite popular
despite his physical limitations and less then classic good looks. Lots
of performers who are "technically" overweight.
>the goverment tells us (ok, a very big leap of faith!), there is a very
>signifigant percentage of overweight people, and I rarely see them
>represented on any artistic stage.
Government statistics are based on "clinical" overweight, and not what
you or I would consider overweight. I start worrying about friends
weight when they get around 300#. (Not because of what they look like,
but because I don't want to go to their funerals.) THAT is where I
start thinking overweight. I can rattle off a LONG list of folks who
are "technically" overweight, but most of us wouldn't consider them
"fat". Remember, you get counted in government stats as overweight
if you are 5-10# over ideal.
Bill Nash
Hearn. Bonnie is blind and Bill is mostly blind, it sure
doesn't stop them from being dynamic performers. Bill's
guitar work scares me sometimes, it's so good.
Bill
JLizKenn
One of the virtues of country music for a long time was that it was an
arena where relatively little attention was paid to the performer's
"sex appeal." That's no longer the case, and hasn't been for some
time, but I think it is still true in bluegrass.
I believe it's still true in folk music as well. In fact, with plenty of
exceptions, I'd say that compared with the artists covered on the
seven major labels, we folksingers are butt-ugly! This will only remain
true
until there's an FTV, of course -- isn't it TNN that's gotten the
country industry to plug mostly the hot young studs so that now,
as one rec.country newsgroup member from Norway remarked,
today's country artists all look like the actors on BayWatch....
--Joan
Terry McLafferty
>
>It is my understanding that Tom Campbell should be credited as a
co-author
>(with Steve Gillette) of "Darcy Farrow".
I first heard Steve do this song ( as "a medley of my hit") in the Prison
of Socrates some 30 years ago. Is Gillette still singing?
Mark Spittal
: What kind of music are you talking about? Jazz? Try Fats Waller, Charles
A point. I am the originator of this thread, and sevearl people have
made the point that there are overweight performers who are popular.
They are exceptions to the rule, and definitely a minority.
The point about the African American communities are well taken, as I
have spent a good part of my life within that culture, however, folk
musci is at the moment, rather white, and sometimes rather trendy in its
attitudes.
Perhaps in tradion based folk music it is a more accepting venue, but
when you are a songwriter, as I am, it is a different matter.
Mark
Kim Dyer
>I was a kid. He used a special prosthesis which had a pick fixed to
>it. It was pretty neat!
Isn't there also a rock drummer in a well known band that only has one
arm ... the result of a car accident?
Paul Hartman
mean that *any* of those have redeeming qualities, though... :)
Cynthia Corwin %IDK
>It also sounded like Goldfield's original article knocked Carla Sciacky
>(spelling), though he didn't name her, as it referred to a song about
>insomnia. Sciacky is also one of my all-time favorites. I don't think
>I've ever heard her sing a weak song in public.
>
No, the original article knocked the woman who recently opened for
Garnet Rogers at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley. I believe her
first name was Caren or maybe Caryn and I've forgotten her last
name. Personally, I found her pleasant enough to listen to but have
totally forgotten any of her songs. Incidentally, Garnet Rogers
loved her performance and said so repeatedly.
I think Goldfield and I were at the same Cheryl Wheeler performance
as well. My initial impression was similar to his, but she's
grown on me in a big way since then, and I'm looking forward
to her next appearance in this part of the country.
Cindy Corwin
cor...@cgl.ucsf.edu
Trevor Pearson
> As a Gordon Lightfoot fan for over 25 years I would love to see him
> in concert, but regrettably he has never made it to this corner of
> the planet.
Not quite true. I saw him when he came to Australia about 20 years ago. I
don't know whether he visited NZ, but I guess were in the same "corner"
:-)
Trevor.
R. Dijkhuis
Yes, Rick Allen from Def Leppard. He uses a specially made electronic kit,
though it's been said that he doesn't actually play on the records (not
because he can't, but because the producer's such a dictator).
Reinder
"Volgens mijn man kan 1 nooit 2 zijn."
"Maar mevrouw Pythagoras! Twijfelt uw man aan het orakel van Delphi?"
P Stamler
Rev. Gary Davis, perhaps two of the most beloved and influential musicians
of the folk revival. Not to mention Blind John Davis, Blind Willie McTell,
Blind Lemon Jefferson, Sonny Terry, the Five Blind Boys of Alabama, Blind
Willie Johnson, on and on.
And deaf musicians, well, there was Beethoven...
Paul Stamler
e-mail: Psta...@aol.com
Alyn Iorwerth
>E M Eades (eme...@aol.com) wrote:
>but I have heard of at least two purcussionists that are deaf. I don't
>recall either of their names, but one was a woman who was interviewed on
>CBC Radio, and the other was a young music student I saw on a television
>talk show.
Possibly Evelyn Glennie.
Jon Weisberger
Goldfield) writes:
>My original point, which has become clarified in this thread, is
>that the singer/songwriter community/audience is much more tolerant
>of lack of talent than other genres I listen to.
I'm not sure that's true, Steve, at least not in my neck of the woods;
an awful lot of bad bluegrass is tolerated by the audience around here:
swearing allegience to that good ol' bluegrass music seems to absolve a
lot of fellers from a lack of talent.
On the other hand, the justification(s) offered for tolerating lack of
talent in siinger/songwriters may be more pretentious than in other
genres <g>.
--
Jon Weisberger, Cincinnati jo...@ix.netcom.com
Steve Goldfield
Bruce Blood <blo...@scl.ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote:
#>Hear! Here! Mr. Franke!.
#>
#>My point way back when (boy, you take a three-day weekend and things go wild),
#>was that yes there IS a ton of dreck, but nestled in there somewhere is a gem.
#>Unfortunately, you've got to dig a bit. Personally, I would be happy to write just
But some of us aren't interesting in digging through dreck to find
gems. Personally, I think it's the job of bookers, record labels,
etc. to identify the gems and get them out there. Once in a while
they'll make a mistake--either way, missing somebody great and
promoting a dud--but it's their job to make those judgments.
My original point, which has become clarified in this thread, is
that the singer/songwriter community/audience is much more tolerant
of lack of talent than other genres I listen to. I don't think
it's helpful to a performer to treat dreck as if it were a gem
to carry this analogy further. And I don't think it's fair to
a paying audience to inflict someone who's awful on them with
an undeserved reputation. If it's bad enough, I walk out. But
if it's a bad opening act, then I suffer in my seat; sometimes
it feels like a knife twisting in my stomach. If you've gone
to a contest or an open mike knowing that you might have to
listen to anything, that's one thing. It's quite another to
get pot luck at a regular show. It's as though you went out
to an expensive restaurant where each waiter brought in a
dish because the chef didn't feel like cooking that night.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: s...@coe.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
Robert Franke
writes:
with his wife Cindy Mangsen. He has a fairly recent (and wonderful)
recording on their Compass Rose label.
--
Bob Franke Telephone Pole Music
rfr...@ix.netcom.com 106 Winona Street
508/535-3331 voice/fax Peabody, MA 01960
"The road of Excess leads to the palace of Wisdom."--Wm. Blake
Peggy Bertsch
: It also sounded like Goldfield's original article knocked Carla Sciacky
: (spelling), though he didn't name her, as it referred to a song about
: insomnia. Sciacky is also one of my all-time favorites. I don't think
: I've ever heard her sing a weak song in public.
No, it wasn't Carla Steve was knocking....it was yet another singer/songwriter
that I really don't see any point in naming here, since the comments made were
extremely critical. Though not as critical as the pointed remarks aimed at
some *named* individuals since that original post appeared.
I was raised to consider people's feelings before I opened my mouth (or
pounded on my keyboard). It's served me pretty well so far. So I think I'll
just wait until I have something nice to say about somebody. I personally
cannot figure out what purpose it has served to post such negative (and
highly subjective) comments about particular artists. Even if I agreed with
those comments. There's such a thing as constructive criticism, and there's
such a thing as going too far and getting too personal. I know where *I*
would draw the line, but apparently we each have a different idea about that.
--peg
P Stamler
Northwest Missouri. Used to hold the bow between his knees and move the
fiddle up and down on it, and was supposed to be pretty decent (I never
got to hear him, and I think he died sometime in the 1980s). And don't
forget Dave (Snaker) Ray, who played blues guitar after his right hand was
amputated.
Peace
Paul
Paul Stamler
e-mail: Psta...@aol.com
Gary Martin
because I hit control C when I was aiming for control F. And my
second attempt was aborted when the modem hung up. Try again.
In article <3n90kp$q...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> hoos...@u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless) writes:
and remember Mama Cass? I don't know what Grit Lafkin, the Canadian,
looks like, but his song, "Let My Stomach be Soft and Round" gives me a
clue.
It's "Laskin", and your guess would be wrong. His weight is quite
normal for his height. Same goes for Cosy Sheridan, who also has
a song about the physical and psychological damage done by the
images of beauty we are fed by the media. Neither of these songs
is exactly a celebration of obesity, but rather a condemnation of
the forces that encourage anorexia and other eating disorders.
--
Gary A. Martin, Assistant Professor of Mathematics, UMass Dartmouth
Mar...@cis.umassd.edu
Olin Murrell
>
> In article <3ngjbe$5...@mother.usf.edu>, cne...@koop.coph.usf.edu says...
> >
> >It is my understanding that Tom Campbell should be credited as a
> co-author
> >(with Steve Gillette) of "Darcy Farrow".
>
> I first heard Steve do this song ( as "a medley of my hit") in the Prison
> of Socrates some 30 years ago. Is Gillette still singing?
>
perform together.
Steve's still writing and performing solo, and occasionaly with his
brother. He plays Kerrville most years, and I believe he'll be back
this year.
In some ways, he's not only singing, he's singing better than ever.
Fred Bulger
: There are several notable blind blues guitarists. Other than that, playing
: music IS somewhat physical, and people with other physical handicaps are
: limited by their ability to move. I do know of one trombonist with the
: Boston Symphony who has multiple sclerosis, but MS has also destroyed the
: career of a guitarist friend of mine who can no longer finger the
: instrument. Most musicians need to be able to move and to hear in order to
: play.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend; that would be the ultimate in
frustration. As you say, most musicians need to be able to move and hear,
but I have heard of at least two purcussionists that are deaf. I don't
recall either of their names, but one was a woman who was interviewed on
CBC Radio, and the other was a young music student I saw on a television
talk show. Both of them played without footwear or socks, which enabled
them to 'feel' the rhythm.
I also remember seeing a documentary about a one-armed guitarist when
I was a kid. He used a special prosthesis which had a pick fixed to
it. It was pretty neat!
Later...
-Fred.
ghost
>Hey (ghost)! Are you a songwriter yourself? Not flamin', just wonderin'.....'cuz
Nope. I used to dream I could be a song-singer, though, & I know that
songs I'd like to sing, & songs I couldn't do but like to hear sung,
bear little resemblence to much of the singer-songwriter stuff out there.
I've probably beaten it to death on mailing lists & on this group, but,
again:
What makes a song something you'd like to sing, or hear sung?
>I think those of us who know the fear of exposing ourselves in public are a
>little more careful with the tender feelings of the writer. Which is not to
>say that the bad and banal should be encouraged, or that your opinions are
>invalid. But as I said before, if you don't like it, turn it off, don't buy
>it, get up and walk out on it. Believe me, the message comes through loud
>and clear.
Too many people walk out on stuff because their babysitter's time-limit
has just expired for my getting up & walking out to make an impression.
Besides, that's just plain rude. (I wait til the song's over to leave, &,
as Steve Goldfield pointed out, sometimes you're trapped if you want a
good seat for the act you came to see. Sometimes, since I'm already in so
much pain, I stay to see if it will get any better, or how much worse it
*can* get.)
I'm not going to yell "crap! drivel! you call yourself a songwriter!"
during a concert for the same (politeness) reason.
I have no qualms about doing it here, though.
That's their show, this is mine. And yours. And anybody's who wants in.
(Just for the record, the next time I hear racist or similarly derogatory
lyrics, either for "authenticity" or the more logical reason, I hope I do
have the guts to protest vocally.)
BSCOTT1032
would have made it as far or as quickly if they weighed 180 and had zits
and hooked noses at their first open mics? Gary Martin alluded to "Losing
Game" on Cosy Sheridan's album "Quietly Led" (Waterbug Records, Evanston
IL. The push for thin is society-wide and is supported by the
adoration/approval of thin performers over fat ones. Those who challenge
the societal ideal are either castigated (Oprah) or feared (Roseanne)
because they don't give in to the norm. (And of course both have tried to
after being easy marks for comedians after easy laughs) There may be more
respect shown to singers/songwriters because of their talent and their
liberal audiences but the societal push for thin operates in our realm as
well. Why else do we laugh at Cheryl Wheeler's jokes and nod when Cosy
sings about Everywoman (almost)s fear of fat?
Best, Barb
Gary Martin
>
> I first heard Steve do this song ( as "a medley of my hit") in the Prison
> of Socrates some 30 years ago. Is Gillette still singing?
>
Oh my, yes! Steve's married to Cindy Mangsen, and they occasionally
perform together.
Much more than "occasionally". They have one of the busiest tour
schedules around.
Bruce Blood
All valid points. I'm afraid my urge is to push my way on stage,
grab the poor abused guitar, and show 'em a REAL song. <G>.
So far, I've resisted. Besides, as I hinted before, you might well
find my tunes as lame as anyone elses.
One thing I definitely agree with is that agents, club owners,
promoters, and all other so-called pros, have a responsibility to
filter out those who just aren't ready, (and may never be). I'm
continually amazed how often they neglect this. You'd think it
would get 'em where it counts, in the pocketbook. But then,
maybe they just can't hear the difference, or worse: don't care.
Well...if nothing else bring a book and ostentatiously read through
the dreck. Better than losing your seat!
Bruce.
Bruce Blood
Can't wait. <BigG>
Bruce
Belvoir
The main difficulty with SS types (I can't agree with the curmudgeon that
stated flatly that singer/songwriters have two unfortunate habits) is
that they have made it impossible for someone with limited time to listen
to new (to him) people without an overwhelming feeling of Yecch.
I LIKE TRADITIONAL MUSIC. If I'm going to hear a mediocre singer,
I find it easier to take if that singer is at least singing songs that
are IMHO worthwhile. A GOOD singer, on the other hand,---well, they're
rare enough so I don't have to worry much about missing one.